S27.E11: Finale and After the Final Rose

[Back Atcha]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

In general I am glad that the season was light on the constant fighting, crying, and obviously contrived drama.

Since I'm not an avid watcher--skipped entire seasons AND episodes.  I'm surprised to read that it was "light" on the crying.  I thought perhaps Zach was crying on every episode.  Gabi seemed to start crying near the end...and never really stopped.

[Back Atcha]

5 hours ago, call me ishmael said:

My theory is that since they only know how to find 20 somethings they are actually picking people now and waiting 30 years for them to become the right age for senior bachelor.

I doubt if anyone connected with the "franchise" does any of the searching.  In the past, most contestants (men and women) had agents...and work in modeling, acting, etc.  I don't know if that's still the case.  I hope they passed your application to one of the agencies they work with.  Now that Mike Fleiss is out, who KNOWS what will go on!

[DEL901]

31 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

In a few years they can just recycle some of the losers. Bachelor: A Second Chance at Love. Watch as the losers of the past come back with their AARP cards to try again to find love amid the foodless dinner dates and random reasons to strip group dates coming this fall to ABC.

AKA. Bachelor in Paradise?

[Sweet-tea]

On 3/27/2023 at 9:10 PM, Riplet68 said:

She's lost a lot of weight.  And looks like the chick from Transformers....Megan...?

Several of the female leads have let their second choices go before they got to the final rose, I'm not sure about the male leads. I don't count Peter cause Madi left on her accord - and she was going to be his first choice.

I like Jesse so much better than Chris as the lead.  And I really hope they aren't grooming Sean to take his place. nothing against Sean...I just really like the way Jesse is with everyone

At first I couldn’t figure out why Gabi looked so different and better than she did on the show. I thought it was the makeup and styling, but you’re right, she also lost weight. She looked really good. 

I thought Ariel looked beautiful and was composed and well-spoken. I didn’t think she was cold or robotic. I found it refreshing to see one of the rejected women speak her mind without crying and getting emotional. I know it probably isn’t as good TV but I appreciated her poise. I still wish she had been picked for the Bachelorette. I doubt I’ll watch Charity’s season. 

I like that they gave Gabi a lot of time to speak her mind, more so than I’ve remembered in the past. She struggled at times (according to my husband in the next room, it was challenging to hear) but she managed to get it out. Zach really had no option other than eating crow, which he did fairly well. 

I don’t believe Zach was torn. The bachelors always say this to prolong the suspense. I think Gabi’s gut instinct was right. He knew it was Kaity pretty early in the process and just didn’t want to say it, probably due to producer pressure. 

I like Jesse. I think he comes across a bit more insightful and compassionate than Chris Harrison. 

I wonder if Zach and Kaity will make it to the altar. 2025 is a two year engagement. Understandable given their rapid courtship, but many couples haven’t made it this long. 

I CANNOT see Ariel on Bachelor in Paradise! She is too classy for this show. Please let it not happen! 

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Sweet-tea

[dleighg]

5 minutes ago, Sweet-tea said:

I CANNOT see Ariel on Bachelor in Paradise! She is too classy for this show. Please let it not happen! 

I only (barely) watched one season of BiP, but I can imagine her hanging on her lounge chair, watching the goings-on, entertaining some smarter than average suitors, and having an awesome time.

[adhoc]

Quote

I only (barely) watched one season of BiP, but I can imagine her hanging on her lounge chair, watching the goings-on, entertaining some smarter than average suitors, and having an awesome time.

Isn't that pretty much what Astrid Loch did? It's been a while, so I might be misremembering. And she got together with Kevin Wendt, and it worked.

[Sweet-tea]

I’m in the minority, but I don’t want to see Gabi as the Bachelorette. I think she’s too emotionally fragile. I didn’t understand why they gave Gabi so much time on stage, and it was painful at times watching her try to articulate how much she’d been hurt. She looked stunning though. I loved her dress, make-up and hair.

I don’t think Charity was the right pick either, and I don’t plan on watching her season. The brother stunt made me roll my eyes. Why does he need a costume? None of the men know him and I doubt most would remember seeing him briefly on Zach’s season. At least get a more realistic costume if you must use one.

I had forgotten what Zach’s occupation was so I looked it up. He used to be an account executive for Oracle. Ah, now I get it. Some of his mannerisms make sense now including the people-pleasing. He strikes me as similar to salespeople I’ve dealt with in my HR career. 

My preference would be a 40+ Bachelor season, so we could get mature (hopefully) adults, perhaps with grown children, so maybe these contestants are starting a new chapter of their lives. Given the women are always younger on this show, they’d be in their 30s. If I was casting I’d have a guideline to try not to cast any women who are more than 10 years younger than the lead. Hopefully this would eliminate a lot of the squealing and uptalk, but there’s no guarantee. 

Maybe they’ll cast Ariel as Bachelorette in a future season. I hope so. 

 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Sweet-tea

[adhoc]

Quote

I didn’t understand why they gave Gabi so much time on stage, and it was painful at times watching her try to articulate how much she’d been hurt.

People having a break-down or otherwise falling apart makes for good TV.

In my opinion, networks don't care about the health and well being of anyone, beyond whatever "care and consideration" may be legally required for a specific show.

[phlebas]

16 hours ago, Sweet-tea said:

I CANNOT see Ariel on Bachelor in Paradise! She is too classy for this show. Please let it not happen! 

My forebrain says she wouldn't have anything to do with Paradise.  She can get ogled in NYC.

My lizard brain says "Ariel in a swimsuit on my TV for several weeks" and then starts broadcasting white noise.

[canaanite2]

On 3/29/2023 at 8:02 AM, SallyAlbright said:

What's even more promising to me is that Kaity is continuing to work as a nurse (she said her next three-month contract is why they aren't officially moving in together until summer) and Zach says he has no interest in Dancing With The Stars and just wants to be normal. Unless they are really amazing actors, they genuinely seem to have little interest in becoming LA influencer types. 

This is an interesting article that shows the cold hard facts of the Bachelor/ette to influencer pipeline. The numbers just aren't there anymore. I think Zach and Kaity are business savvy enough to be aware of the fact that making a living as an influencer ain't what it used to be. They both have successful careers and it would be crazy to leave them for a career that's on the decline. 

[Jeanne222]

Sean and Catherine along with Arie and Lauren have mastered the art of influence on social media. Mostly with their children!

Sean is pretty witty and Arie and Lauren have Hawaii and the twins!

[Hip-to-be-Square]

I just rewatched Zach's proposal and he told Katie "You're the face that I want to wake up to each day".  That is some ultra cheesy Hallmark movie crap! And imagine the beautiful Gabi watching him say that on TV.  I can just envision her on the couch watching it over saying "What about my face?!" 😭.  Gabi will find love "someday, somehow" as she walked crying to the rejection vehicle - pretty melodramatic for a conventionally attractive 20 something girl to say 😅!  She's second best to Zach, but she'll absolutely be number one to a guy on the dating apps when she's ready to date again.  

[OldWiseOne]

On 3/29/2023 at 5:07 AM, JenE4 said:

“Undercover brother.” They showed him get out of the limo in a normal suit and greet Charity. Then in a cut scene they showed him put on a terrible Party City wig, mustache, trench coat, and hat say he’s going to check out the guys as “Undercover Brother.” But I’m pretty certain they’ll just have him mingle around the cocktail party dressed normally and then have him give Charity a rundown of who is or is not Here for the Right Reasons, and that’s the extent of it.

They should bring back all the greatest hits from Jesse's season (he had the female friend that posed as a contestant to get the inside scoop). Next up, an airline ticket instead of an engagement ring!

[deSchenke]

2 hours ago, canaanite2 said:

This is an interesting article that shows the cold hard facts of the Bachelor/ette to influencer pipeline. The numbers just aren't there anymore. 

Thank goodness for that! Too many people signed up to be an influencer and they diluted the profits. The universe is back in balance.

[SallyAlbright]

3 hours ago, canaanite2 said:

This is an interesting article that shows the cold hard facts of the Bachelor/ette to influencer pipeline. The numbers just aren't there anymore. I think Zach and Kaity are business savvy enough to be aware of the fact that making a living as an influencer ain't what it used to be. They both have successful careers and it would be crazy to leave them for a career that's on the decline. 

Oh I totally agree, but that hasn't stopped several recent ones like Gabby, Rachel, Erich, Michelle, Nayte, Genevieve, etc. from doing the influencer thing to varying degrees. Most of them have moved to LA so Zach and Kaity staying in Austin is already a good choice. 

[DEL901]

5 hours ago, canaanite2 said:

This is an interesting article that shows the cold hard facts of the Bachelor/ette to influencer pipeline. The numbers just aren't there anymore. I think Zach and Kaity are business savvy enough to be aware of the fact that making a living as an influencer ain't what it used to be. They both have successful careers and it would be crazy to leave them for a career that's on the decline. 

Yeah, total glut of wannabe influencers in the reality dating space.  Remember back when even Amanda Stanton could go to paradise and make…was it 6 figures a month?

it is like with all the singing competitions…sure, there are a lot of talented performers, but Kelly, Carrie, Adam and a few others from Idol became “stars” although some others make living with music.  And no one really big for a decade.  And what stars came out of the Voice beyond Blake and Adam’s careers skyrocketing.   Diminishing returns for contestants.  

[Mabinogia]

5 hours ago, OldWiseOne said:

Next up, an airline ticket instead of an engagement ring!

Honestly, I'd rather the airline ticket. lol No way I'd get engaged to a guy who proposed to me hours after dumping his other girlfriend after dating us for a few weeks. However, a trip to, say, Tahiti to frolick in the ocean with his abs while we get to know each other sounds like a good time. Not with Zach though, he does nothing for me. 

[chocolatine]

7 hours ago, deSchenke said:

Thank goodness for that! Too many people signed up to be an influencer and they diluted the profits. The universe is back in balance.

Even during the heyday of reality TV influencers, it should have been obvious to everyone that it was not a sustainable long-term income stream. Once those people stopped appearing on the shows, they weren't going to gain new followers, and the old ones would have gradually lost interest. It's a nice way to spend a couple of years in one's 20s or early 30s, but the other shoe was always going to drop at some point.

Edited March 31, 2023 by chocolatine

[Starlight925]

47 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Honestly, I'd rather the airline ticket. lol No way I'd get engaged to a guy who proposed to me hours after dumping screwing his other girlfriend after dating us for a few weeks. 

FIFY.  😆

[Back Atcha]

18 hours ago, adhoc said:

In my opinion, networks don't care about the health and well being of anyone, beyond whatever "care and consideration" may be legally required for a specific show.

Are those shows "required" to have a licensed/certified psychologist on the show for pre-interviews and any help needed during the season?  Or do they even hire one anymore?

[LuvMyShows]

On 3/28/2023 at 12:20 PM, Back Atcha said:

Yeah...what happened with Gabi?  She was all fun and games for most of the season.  Did some production assistant tell her that she NEEDS to "bring the drama."  Is THAT when she became a bundle of "not good enough" insecurities? 

Actually, she was a bundle of insecurities from the very start.  I specifically recall being shocked at an early cocktail party, when we saw her spinning out of control from insecurity, and then Zack gave her a kiss, and from that point on she seemed to be in the mix.  I had thought for sure she would be outta there prior to that.

On 3/27/2023 at 9:47 PM, JenE4 said:

He’s said “falling in love” and “love is there” and  “definitively falling in love”—but he hasn’t said anything close (as far as we know) to kaity. Then he made a point of saying he’s “saving the L word” but whether he’s “falling” or “fallen,” the word is in his lexicon with Gabi. Though, I see your point that there is some love continuum on this show from “I can see myself falling in love with you” on up.

"Love continuum" is the perfect wording!

On 3/28/2023 at 3:16 PM, Palomar said:

 I imagine he also went on to have sex with Kaity in the FS since she knew he did with Gaby. 

I would think not, because at the RC, Kaity said to Gabi something like, "I know you were the only one."

On 3/29/2023 at 7:19 PM, Sweet-tea said:

At first I couldn’t figure out why Gabi looked so different and better than she did on the show. I thought it was the makeup and styling, but you’re right, she also lost weight. She looked really good. 

I believe she started losing weight during the season.  She looked significantly thinner (or maybe just trimmer) to me on the Proposal Day.

On 3/29/2023 at 4:20 PM, Soobs said:

During her interview she said that week in Thailand she and Zach had an amazing talk about their mental health. Why aren't we seeing these deeper conversations? Many of us watch to see a new relationship unfold in real time. There's so much lame, vapid conversation it makes the show dull and the people look stupid.

Obviously, it isn't because they are trying to protect the contestants' privacy. It seems to be that whoever is in charge doesn't really have their finger on the pulse of Bachelor Nation, a term that also needs a serious rebranding.

The main reason I read this forum, and not Reddit, is that people here are rational, reasoned, and do have an interest in that 'deeper' stuff.  But I suspect that we are a minority of Bachelor Nation, and that's why TPTB focus on the stupid contrived drama at the expense of the genuine relationship-deepening conversations.

[Melonie77]

1 minute ago, LuvMyShows said:

On 3/28/2023 at 12:20 PM, Back Atcha said:

Yeah...what happened with Gabi?  She was all fun and games for most of the season.  Did some production assistant tell her that she NEEDS to "bring the drama."  Is THAT when she became a bundle of "not good enough" insecurities? 

Actually, she was a bundle of insecurities from the very start.  I specifically recall being shocked at an early cocktail party, when we saw her spinning out of control from insecurity, and then Zack gave her a kiss, and from that point on she seemed to be in the mix.  I had thought for sure she would be outta there prior to that.

Yes! I think she was upset on the very first night - she was worried about not getting a chance to speak to Zach before the first rose ceremony.

8 minutes ago, LuvMyShows said:

I believe she started losing weight during the season.  She looked significantly thinner (or maybe just trimmer) to me on the Proposal Day.

I noticed she seemed trimmer in the last couple of episodes and was especially thinner and more trim at the ATFR. A lot of girls say they gain weight while on the show. I wonder if Gabi deliberately made an effort to lose weight or if it was due to stress or anxiety. She did look great though.
If it wasn't for the bond I saw between Zach and Kaity starting on the museum date, I might have thought Gabi was a 'simmering but hidden first choice' like Catherine was on Sean Lowe's season.

[Melonie77]

6 hours ago, Back Atcha said:

Are those shows "required" to have a licensed/certified psychologist on the show for pre-interviews and any help needed during the season?  Or do they even hire one anymore?

I'm not sure what requirements may be set out, but I believe they do have a therapist or psychologist on hand throughout the entire shoot for every season. We've gotten a peek at them on rare occasions and a production-hired psychologist has been mentioned once in a while over the years. One thing I believe the therapist does is speak with each contestant when they get sent home. 

[Melonie77]

21 hours ago, SallyAlbright said:

Oh I totally agree, but that hasn't stopped several recent ones like Gabby, Rachel, Erich, Michelle, Nayte, Genevieve, etc. from doing the influencer thing to varying degrees. Most of them have moved to LA so Zach and Kaity staying in Austin is already a good choice. 

I think some of these more recent people hope to get other work out of appearing on the franchise as well as some influencing. Some seem to plan on it and it might be the sole reason for appearing on the show.
Nayte (Michelle's final pick) might be an example of a wrong-reasons cast member. I never thought he was very sincere about his feelings for Michelle. He broke up the relationship after only a short engagement and reportedly moved to LA to room with another ex-cast member. I read that he wants to start modeling. I dislike that he apparently not only wasted Michelle's time but viewers' time as well.

Gabby's final pick-Erich appears to be star-struck rather than love-struck judging by his social media posts. He hired an agent and has been attempting to get gigs - I guess as a model, actor or involved in advertising. His intentions on the show were ambiguous - his ex-girlfriend ratted him out for appearing on the bachelorette to further a "career in self-promotion" but he seemed genuinely interested in Gabby. But now he appears to have morphed into a Hollywood wannabe and is dating a model.

Gabby got the Dancing with the Stars gig and came in second place. She then joined the show's tour as both a dancer and co-host. I wonder if she will go back to nursing or if she will focus on dance. She is an excellent dancer with the right body type but she's in her early 30s so I don't know how long that can last.

I was disappointed Michelle did not go back to teaching as she appeared to be an excellent one who enjoyed the work. I'm assuming she did not have tenure if she didn't return to her position. She could have done influencing work on the side or during the summers while still teaching. I think she's still doing one of the popular Bachelor show vlogs but I don't know how long a gig like that can last.

[Sweet-tea]

7 hours ago, Melonie77 said:

Yes! I think she was upset on the very first night - she was worried about not getting a chance to speak to Zach before the first rose ceremony.

I noticed she seemed trimmer in the last couple of episodes and was especially thinner and more trim at the ATFR. A lot of girls say they gain weight while on the show. I wonder if Gabi deliberately made an effort to lose weight or if it was due to stress or anxiety. She did look great though.
If it wasn't for the bond I saw between Zach and Kaity starting on the museum date, I might have thought Gabi was a 'simmering but hidden first choice' like Catherine was on Sean Lowe's season.

I noticed she looked slimmer in the last episode when she was wearing the yellow dress. Her face also looked thinner. It’s weird but her chin and jawline didn’t look as prominent in the ATFR, which made her look softer and more lovely to me. 

During the season, I didn’t think Gabi looked that great but it was mostly due to little to no make-up, humidity and poor styling. I know how bad my hair looks in humid climates so I certainly understand!

Overall, I think they are all very attractive. In my opinion, I’d put Ariel first, then Kaity a close second, then Gabi. Kaity and Ariel are so close they could be switched. 

I hope Gabi is doing ok. I’m concerned about her mental health. She seemed to take the rejection really hard. I know a lot of them have, but even later after some time had passed, Gabi didn’t seem to have bounced back on ATFR. 

[call me ishmael]

6 minutes ago, Sweet-tea said:

I noticed she looked slimmer in the last episode when she was wearing the yellow dress. Her face also looked thinner. It’s weird but her chin and jawline didn’t look as prominent in the ATFR, which made her look softer and more lovely to me. 

During the season, I didn’t think Gabi looked that great but it was mostly due to little to no make-up, humidity and poor styling. I know how bad my hair looks in humid climates so I certainly understand!

Overall, I think they are all very attractive. In my opinion, I’d put Ariel first, then Kaity a close second, then Gabi. Kaity and Ariel are so close they could be switched. 

I hope Gabi is doing ok. I’m concerned about her mental health. She seemed to take the rejection really hard. I know a lot of them have, but even later after some time had passed, Gabi didn’t seem to have bounced back on ATFR. 

I think that there is no question but that the show treated Gabi very cruelly.  Part of it was Zach’s insensitivity and his need to make sure that Kaity didn’t get mad at him.  But the show also made sure that they lingered over every moment of Gabi’s emotional upset.  It’s bad enough getting rejected.  It’s worse getting rejected after you “were intimate” with someone.  But to have that rejection and your reaction displayed in so great detail has to be worse.  People were rightly upset with Zach for following her out and trying to say what he planned.  But the cameras soaked up every second and gleefully replayed it.  Ariel was pissed at Zach for not treating her like an adult.  And she was right.  But she didn’t also have the show treating her like a spectacle.

[DEL901]

While Zach brought most of the scorn on himself, the show did him dirty too.  They showed the last two dates out of order.  Zach said he was torn with Gabi because he tried to compartmentalize.   But then when he saw Kaity walking towards him the next morning, for their date, he finally realized it was he4 and had been all along….something everyone watching already knew since he always seems so much happier when he was with Kaity and couldn’t stop smiling. 

[Melonie77]

Yeah, the show really did ALL of the main cast dirty. Why they think they can get away with this and still hope to attract decent people, I do not know. It's the producers' fault this season ended with a less-than-joyful feeling despite an engagement between two people who seem well-matched.

One thing I still don't understand is Gabi saying on ATFR she didn't know Zach and the show were going to out her as the one who slept with Zach. But she knew that she and Zach had discussed their intimacy on camera the next morning when he came back to visit Gabi before his overnight with Kaity. I'm not trying to make light of her negative experiences at all as I think she was treated very poorly - I just don't know how she would think it would be kept private unless that conversation was filmed without her knowledge!

It would be nice if they made Gabi the next Bachelorette. I think she would do well when holding all the power in the situation. She's intelligent and has a great sense of humor, and I think the producers might not dare screw her over knowing how much the public is upset with what happened this season.

1 hour ago, Sweet-tea said:

I noticed she looked slimmer in the last episode when she was wearing the yellow dress. Her face also looked thinner. It’s weird but her chin and jawline didn’t look as prominent in the ATFR, which made her look softer and more lovely to me. 

I thought the same exact thing but assumed I was imagining it! I even briefly thought she might have had plastic surgery to reduce her chin/jaw line but there wouldn't have been enough time for her to recuperate from that. I guess the weight loss alone helped slim her lower face down enough. She did look so pretty!

[deSchenke]

Could someone please clarify for me, which “dates” were shown out of order?

[DEL901]

3 minutes ago, deSchenke said:

Could someone please clarify for me, which “dates” were shown out of order?

The last chance dates.  The show made it look like Zach and Kaity went first.  Then he went out with Gabe and was still torn although he’d been out with them both.  This wasn’t true.  He went out with Gabi first.  

[Melonie77]

Just now, deSchenke said:

Could someone please clarify for me, which “dates” were shown out of order?

The final two dates after they met his parents. They showed Gabi going first at the beginning of the episode for the first date and to meet his parents. Then for the final date of the season, they switched the order around and showed Kaity going first and Gabi second. I remember posting about this while the show was live as I wondered why they would switch the order in the middle of the dates. 

During an interview the next day, Zach said the dates were filmed with Gabi first but aired out of order. I think they did that deliberately because usually, the person that gets the last date is the final one so I guess they were trying to through the audience off.

[LuvMyShows]

 

On 3/27/2023 at 8:20 PM, JenE4 said:

The only emotion she has is a slight bit of anger/embarrassment that she didn’t get a special private talk on the sex-ban reversal. Which, the whole entire thing was ridiculously stupid. She’s basically like I had no intention of sleeping with you anyway.

OK, so I have a question about this.  In her ATFR conversation with Zack, regarding his decision not to sleep with the ladies, she mentioned that it removed her personal agency.  That sounds fine, until closer thought:

Did she mean that she had already decided to not to sleep with him, and by him deciding it across the board, that it somehow removed her side of the equation and having input?  I don't buy that, because she could just say something like, "I understand your decision, and had already decided that for myself." Agency retained.

If she did mean the interpretation above, then didn't she effectively remove his personal agency, by already deciding that they wouldn't have sex, just as she was accusing him of doing?

And if it was not the interpretation above, then the only one I can come up with is VERY problematic, and that is her taking issue with his decision to not have sex, because theoretically she may have wanted to have sex.  Now if she simply meant that him already making that decision without talking to her about it, negated her chance for a 2-way discussion about why she might have wanted to have sex, that's legit, although I wouldn't say that removed her agency.   But if she is implying that him already making that decision without talking to her, negated her chance to actually have sex with him, thus removing her agency to have sex with him, then she's guilty of what women have been accusing men of for years, which is putting their desire to have sex ahead of the woman's right to not have sex, and thus over-ruling the woman's agency to say no.  In this case, what she was saying would seem to be an exact flip of the typical pattern.

[adhoc]

LuvMyShows, interesting take, and you could be right.

Following were my thoughts on Ariel's taking offense at not being allowed agency wrt Zach and the fantasy suite dates.  I have not gone back to re-watch, so I could be wrong, but these were my impressions:

• I thought Ariel would not have been offended if Zach had said "Sex is off the table tonight" and then kept his word and not had sex with any of the women. She would not have been talking afterward about the women not having "agency" to participate in the "sex / no sex" decision. It would just have been "This rule was important to Zach for the fantasy suite dates, and I respected that."
• When Ariel found out that Zach had sex with Gabi--so they obviously decided together to do the deed--while not giving her, Ariel, the same opportunity to even just discuss having sex, I think Ariel may have assumed (on some level) it was because Zach did not want to have sex with her. Ouch. When you're used to turning heads all the time, that's got to hurt.
  
  Personally, I assumed that Zach chose not to have sex with Ariel simply because he knew he was dumping her at the next rose ceremony, and he didn't want to feel like a total jerk saying "Thanks for the sex, now let me walk you out to the van..."
• The other thought I had was that Ariel may have been a bit ticked off because by not discussing whether to have sex or not, Zach took away Ariel's chance to show us what a mature and thoughtful woman she was. He took away her opportunity to say, in a talking head, something like "I just would not have felt comfortable being that intimate with someone I had known for such a short time. So when Zach brought up the possibility of sex, we both agreed that it was too soon in the relationship."  
  
  Moreover, if Zach had gone the "discussion" route, it would also have allowed Ariel to save face, since at the end of the day, it would not just be Zach taking sex off the table (ouch, turns out he rejected me but not Gabi, that stings), but both of them together deciding that--whether they wanted to do it or not--they weren't going to have sex.

These are just my opinions. YMMV.

Edited April 1, 2023 by adhoc

[Mabinogia]

3 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

OK, so I have a question about this.  In her ATFR conversation with Zack, regarding his decision not to sleep with the ladies, she mentioned that it removed her personal agency. 

This was the moment I started to think Ariel isn't as smart as she pretends to be. She used a buzz word in a way that makes no sense. Zack didn't take her agency away from her. He made a decision for himself. Sure, they could have talked about it, but why? Was she looking for a chance to change his mind (which, that's problematic) or she wanted to be the one who decided not to have sex (which is also concerning). 

I think she was trying way too hard to come out all "female empowerment" and instead came off kind of high maintenance (in the, if she dates a guy he's going to have to run every move he makes by her, kind of way).

I wish Zach had handled the overnights better because I feel like he and Kaity are a good pair and I would have liked their happy ending to have not been so messy. 

[StatisticalOutlier]

This is still on my DVR.  And even better, it was a live show so what they said hasn't been edited or frankenbited.

Jesse asked what Ariel what her reaction was when Zach told her he wasn't going to have sex with anyone:

"I was on the same page with Zach.  I wish he had kid of waited till we had a conversation with the two of us so we could both get to a conclusion as a couple, but I was in a place where I didn't want to be physically intimate if I knew he was pursuing other relationships. I didn't know what could happen.  So I had to protect myself, and I felt like if we were to end up together, we could pursue intimacy in a totally different way afterwards."

Here's how she responded to Zach about what he called his "executive decision":

"You took away my agency in that night and that that conversation. When you come to all the women with a universal opinion on what should happen, we're no longer a couple and we're not talking as a couple or coming to a conclusion as a couple.  So you took away my agency, you took away my ability to even have a conversation, and if you'd waited, you would have found out that I was on the same page as you."

Not sure if any of this illuminates anything, but there it is.

[call me ishmael]

59 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

This is still on my DVR.  And even better, it was a live show so what they said hasn't been edited or frankenbited.

Jesse asked what Ariel what her reaction was when Zach told her he wasn't going to have sex with anyone:

"I was on the same page with Zach.  I wish he had kid of waited till we had a conversation with the two of us so we could both get to a conclusion as a couple, but I was in a place where I didn't want to be physically intimate if I knew he was pursuing other relationships. I didn't know what could happen.  So I had to protect myself, and I felt like if we were to end up together, we could pursue intimacy in a totally different way afterwards."

Here's how she responded to Zach about what he called his "executive decision":

"You took away my agency in that night and that that conversation. When you come to all the women with a universal opinion on what should happen, we're no longer a couple and we're not talking as a couple or coming to a conclusion as a couple.  So you took away my agency, you took away my ability to even have a conversation, and if you'd waited, you would have found out that I was on the same page as you."

Not sure if any of this illuminates anything, but there it is.

Thanks.  I had the same impression.  What was lacking was a conversation in which the two of them could discuss things rather than a simple declaration by one side out of the blue.  Zach decided to be sean for a week (he couldn’t manage even that) but he didn’t think that he needed to discuss things.  Agency is a buzzword granted.  But i think that she was saying that a decision like that should be at least discussed between the two people.

[Jeanne222]

On 3/31/2023 at 8:15 PM, Melonie77 said:

Yeah, the show really did ALL of the main cast dirty. Why they think they can get away with this and still hope to attract decent people, I do not know. It's the producers' fault this season ended with a less-than-joyful feeling despite an engagement between two people who seem well-matched.

One thing I still don't understand is Gabi saying on ATFR she didn't know Zach and the show were going to out her as the one who slept with Zach. But she knew that she and Zach had discussed their intimacy on camera the next morning when he came back to visit Gabi before his overnight with Kaity. I'm not trying to make light of her negative experiences at all as I think she was treated very poorly - I just don't know how she would think it would be kept private unless that conversation was filmed without her knowledge!

It would be nice if they made Gabi the next Bachelorette. I think she would do well when holding all the power in the situation. She's intelligent and has a great sense of humor, and I think the producers might not dare screw her over knowing how much the public is upset with what happened this season.

I thought the same exact thing but assumed I was imagining it! I even briefly thought she might have had plastic surgery to reduce her chin/jaw line but there wouldn't have been enough time for her to recuperate from that. I guess the weight loss alone helped slim her lower face down enough. She did look so pretty!

She did look a lot different at the end of the show then at the beginning!

[Mabinogia]

4 hours ago, call me ishmael said:

But i think that she was saying that a decision like that should be at least discussed between the two people.

I just don't understand what discussion she expected. Did he just not sleep with her without ever telling her that was his plan? Because I am pretty sure I saw him tell her he wasn't doing the sex at which point she could have said "good, I feel the same way" and there you go, they had all the decussion that was required. 

In regards to Ariel I don't think Zach did anything wrong. Gabi is a whole other story. And with what he did to Gabi it makes Ariel's whole "you didn't let me turn down sex" complaint seems kind of petty.

[dleighg]

Yeah, where was that discussion gonna go? "But I wanted to. Or at least have the option." "But I decided I didn't want to do that." What more is there to say?

[sauce62]

Yes, Ariel's take down of Zach made no sense to me. She seemed very rehearsed and angry for no reason. My love for her has decreased. I have no doubt that she was coached to give him a hard time, but it took away from her charm, and the Zach pileup  was overkill. He seems like a nice guy who fucked up and publicly humiliating him further just seemed uncalled for.

Gabi also had every reason to be hurt and embarrassed but I hope she realizes that Zach was the producers' puppet and had to string her along. What a perverse form of entertainment.

Edited April 2, 2023 by sauce62

[Crashcourse]

Gabi could've said No to the sex since she knew Zach was also talking to the other women.  So I don't put all the blame on him. 

Ariel thinks so highly of herself, of course she would think that Zach took away her "agency." 😏

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, sauce62 said:

He seems like a nice guy who fucked up and publicly humiliating him further just seemed uncalled for.

Yeah, I don't get the vibe that he's malicious or that he set out to hurt any of them, or use them or take anyone's agency (that still makes me laugh, it's such a stretch). I think he's just kind of a goober who got caught up in a situation he thought he was ready for, but he clearly really wasn't. 

 

46 minutes ago, Crashcourse said:

Gabi could've said No to the sex since she knew Zach was also talking to the other women.  So I don't put all the blame on him. 

I don't have any problem with Zach sleeping with Gabi. Hell, I don't even really have an issue with his breaking his not having sex proclamation because there was just no need to make it in the first place. Just tell each woman when you shut the door to the fantasy suite that you decided you don't want to have sex with three women in 3 consecutive dates. If any of them got upset over him not wanting to have sex when he's going on 3 dates in a row, that would be a red flag. 

For me where he really, epically and horribly screwed up was when he became so desperate to clear his conscience that threw Gabi under the bus, then pushed the bus driver out of the way so he could run over her over and over in order to prove his love to the woman he claims he didn't yet know he was picking. 

I'm one of the few who doesn't care if the lead sleeps with all three of them because at that point they are not in an exclusive relationship. I also think that there is nothing wrong with letting each one know if the sex has happened, but IN PRIVATE! Do not out your lover on national television because you're afraid you're going to get caught when your fiance watches the show. 

Edited April 2, 2023 by Mabinogia
fixed a weirdly worded sentence

[Crashcourse]

5 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Yeah, I don't get the vibe that he's malicious or that he set out to hurt any of them, or use them or take anyone's agency (that still makes me laugh, it's such a stretch). I think he's just kind of a goober who got caught up in a situation he thought he was ready for, but he clearly really wasn't. 

 

I don't have any problem with Zach sleeping with Gabi. Hell, I don't even really have an issue with his breaking his not having sex proclamation because I have more issue with him shouting it all over the place because there was no need. Just tell each woman when you shut the door to the fantasy suite. If any of them got upset over him not wanting to have sex when he's going on 3 dates in a row, that would be a red flag. 

For me where he really, epically and horribly screwed up was when he became so desperate to clear his conscience that threw Gabi under the bus, then pushed the bus driver out of the way so he could run over her over and over in order to prove his love to the woman he claims he didn't yet know he was picking. 

I'm one of the few who doesn't care if the lead sleeps with all three of them because at that point they are not in an exclusive relationship. I also think that there is nothing wrong with letting each one know if the sex has happened, but IN PRIVATE! Do not out your lover on national television because you're afraid you're going to get caught when your fiance watches the show. 

Gabi should have known that on a reality show, it's not going to be a secret.  I don't feel sorry for her, that's just the way I see it.

Edited April 2, 2023 by Crashcourse

[call me ishmael]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

I just don't understand what discussion she expected. Did he just not sleep with her without ever telling her that was his plan? Because I am pretty sure I saw him tell her he wasn't doing the sex at which point she could have said "good, I feel the same way" and there you go, they had all the decussion that was required. 

In regards to Ariel I don't think Zach did anything wrong. Gabi is a whole other story. And with what he did to Gabi it makes Ariel's whole "you didn't let me turn down sex" complaint seems kind of petty.

I don’t know but it seems different to me if you are in that situation and say “look, I’ve been thinking about this and I just don’t think I should sleep with any of the final three right before the decision. Does that make sense”

and

saying “I’ve decided for sex week that there will be no sex this week without discussing it with you.” 

one thing seems to me the type of thing you would say to a potential equal partner and the other seems like a one sided rule making.

not to mention he did it all before the cameras as a display of his virtue.  Although that of course backfired.
 

[adhoc]

Quote

Ariel thinks so highly of herself, of course she would think that Zach took away her "agency." 😏

First, thank you for clarifying the actual convos, StatisticalOutlier! 

Second, I still believe the whole "took away my agency" complaint would never have been made if Zach had not slept with any of the ladies.  (See my previous post.) 

Rather, I think Ariel’s complaint was more about Zach (or Production) taking away Ariel's ability to control her “Bachelor” narrative.  That’s the agency she’s talking about, in my mind. Curating her portrayal on the show.  Making sure she always appeared collected, intelligent, thoughtful, mature.  And I think she did not like the way she was portrayed--one might say blindsided, or made to look like a dupe, or like "chopped liver", or whatever--during FS week. 

Now, if there had been an Ariel ITM at the end of that episode, with Ariel saying “It was disappointing to find out Zach discussed sex with Gabi, and they mutually decided to sleep together, while he didn’t have a similar discussion with me. But on the other hand, I wouldn’t have slept with him as long as he was still dating two other women, so I can't be too upset. No harm, no foul," I think she would not have been so upset on ATFR.

As it was, I thought ATFR was just about setting the record straight that she never intended to sleep with Zach anyway and positioning herself a wee bit as having the moral high ground. IMHO

Edited April 2, 2023 by adhoc

[Starlight925]

Ariel's pride was hurt.  

Zach was able to resist her, but not Gabi.  

And he waited with Kaity, because he was truly in love with her.

Ariel was 3rd.

[LuvMyShows]

On 4/1/2023 at 11:22 AM, adhoc said:

• When Ariel found out that Zach had sex with Gabi--so they obviously decided together to do the deed--while not giving her, Ariel, the same opportunity to even just discuss having sex, I think Ariel may have assumed (on some level) it was because Zach did not want to have sex with her.
• The other thought I had was that Ariel may have been a bit ticked off because by not discussing whether to have sex or not, Zach took away Ariel's chance to show us what a mature and thoughtful woman she was. He took away her opportunity to say, in a talking head, something like "I just would not have felt comfortable being that intimate with someone I had known for such a short time. So when Zach brought up the possibility of sex, we both agreed that it was too soon in the relationship."  
  
  Moreover, if Zach had gone the "discussion" route, it would also have allowed Ariel to save face, since at the end of the day, it would not just be Zach taking sex off the table (ouch, turns out he rejected me but not Gabi, that stings), but both of them together deciding that--whether they wanted to do it or not--they weren't going to have sex.

On 4/2/2023 at 1:13 PM, call me ishmael said:

Thanks.  I had the same impression.  What was lacking was a conversation in which the two of them could discuss things rather than a simple declaration by one side out of the blue.  Zach decided to be sean for a week (he couldn’t manage even that) but he didn’t think that he needed to discuss things.  Agency is a buzzword granted.  But i think that she was saying that a decision like that should be at least discussed between the two people.

But the issue I have with all this, is that a discussion WAS possible, because clearly Zack and Gabi decided to have sex even though he had given her the same no-sex decision!  So at some point Zack and Gabi discussed and decided. Zack took the exact same approach with Gabi, in that he decided beforehand to not have sex, but something was different in the outcome. Zack's declaration of 'no sex' to Ariel did not in any way take away her agency to say whatever she wanted to, about whether she wanted to, or didn't want to, or why she did or didn't want to, and then what she could say later in an ITM about what she said to Zack.  She just needed to say it, whatever it was!  He simply stated his decision; he didn't then put his hand over her mouth and tell her to shut the f*ck up and just do what I say.   

[ljenkins782]

On 4/2/2023 at 7:49 PM, adhoc said:

First, thank you for clarifying the actual convos, StatisticalOutlier! 

Second, I still believe the whole "took away my agency" complaint would never have been made if Zach had not slept with any of the ladies.  (See my previous post.) 

Rather, I think Ariel’s complaint was more about Zach (or Production) taking away Ariel's ability to control her “Bachelor” narrative.  That’s the agency she’s talking about, in my mind. Curating her portrayal on the show.  Making sure she always appeared collected, intelligent, thoughtful, mature.  And I think she did not like the way she was portrayed--one might say blindsided, or made to look like a dupe, or like "chopped liver", or whatever--during FS week. 

Now, if there had been an Ariel ITM at the end of that episode, with Ariel saying “It was disappointing to find out Zach discussed sex with Gabi, and they mutually decided to sleep together, while he didn’t have a similar discussion with me. But on the other hand, I wouldn’t have slept with him as long as he was still dating two other women, so I can't be too upset. No harm, no foul," I think she would not have been so upset on ATFR.

As it was, I thought ATFR was just about setting the record straight that she never intended to sleep with Zach anyway and positioning herself a wee bit as having the moral high ground. IMHO

Also, the editing made it seem like she was desperately trying to seduce him and he wasn't having it. So for her, watching at home knowing that she'd had no plans to sleep with him, it was a double insult to watch herself portrayed as trying and failing, especially since he did sleep with Gabi. 

Overall, he biffed the ending with the FS dates. If Kaity was the chosen one all along, making a no sex decree would make sense, but breaking it with Gabi makes no sense at all. I thought he and Kaity were a good couple and they had a leg up other Bachelor couples just by living in the same geographic region, but the Gabi thing definitely put a hitch in the whole story.

[call me ishmael]

Remind me again: who was the bachelor this season?  I can’t remember a thing. 😎

[dleighg]

3 minutes ago, call me ishmael said:

Remind me again: who was the bachelor this season?  I can’t remember a thing

I get you. I can't remember his name either