S01.E06: Kin

[kirkola]

One of the things I like about this particular show, and most of them in the genre, is that you get to think about society as a whole.  There's what we consider morally acceptable in today's world with all our modern trappings, and there's what are more basic morals.  Sure "thou shall not kill", but in a fungi-led apocalypse, where is that line.  Shooting someone who has just been infected, like we saw with Henry & Sam, feels acceptable, even though in a modern world, the Henry would most definitely end up arrested.  And yet no one wanted to see Henry punished. 

So yeah, we might not, in 2023 find it acceptable to see a middle aged man traveling alone with a 14-year-old.  But it's not our 2023.  It's a 2023 where Joel has been tasked with delivering a package to some doctors on the other side of America in hopes that Ellie can save the world.  And Joel has two options, continue the quest as given to him, or leave a defenseless 14 year old to make the journey herself.   Alone.  And we have spent 5 episodes getting to know them.  Joel is starting to think of Ellie less as a package and more of a daughter.  And the acting by both of them was excellent in this episode.  I could feel Ellie's heartbreak when Joel was dumping her with Tommy.  And I could feel Joe's heartbreak at the thought of Joel not being able to protect her.

 

[LoveLeigh]

47 minutes ago, BasilSeal said:

"i'm not arguing" says person repeatedly returning to the forum to  defend their opinion.

I am not "defending" my specific opinion anywhere at all. I am clarifying a definition of opinion.

I have stayed out of argument and repeatedly said it is my opinion only, I am not trying to convince or persuade anybody to agree with me. It is my opinion and I acknowledge I stand alone within that view. 

[Nashville]

10 hours ago, cardigirl said:

That is something I've been wondering about. I guess you could make grain alcohol with corn,

Yup.  If it contains a saccharide (sugar, starch, cellulose, etc.) you can ferment it, distill it, drink it, and regret it the next day.

 

10 hours ago, cardigirl said:

but wasn't flour (wheat) suspect is the initial spreading of the fungus?  Yet there was bread with Joel and Ellie's meal in Laramie.

Interesting point:

• By now (T+20yrs AC) it would be safe to assume all the world’s grain crops from which flour might be derived have been exposed to the cordyceps spores.
• A short ponder, however, immediately reveals the staggering lack of real information we have to work with.  Did the spores infiltrate the base grain, the processed flour, or neither - simply attaching themselves externally and hitching a ride somewhere in the transport process?  Do different types of cooking impact the spores differently? Or is flour truly involved at all - part of a coincidental process?

[Raachel2008]

On 2/21/2023 at 7:23 PM, Dev F said:

It looks like there's a telltale pattern of fungal fibers that spreads out from the bite under the skin. Since Ellie's infection doesn't seem to be spreading anymore, it's possible she could dig out the fibers or something, but it seems like that would be a complicated, painful, and possibly damaging procedure.

Ahhh, thank you! I hadn't notice it! Now I see how it is impossible for them to conceal that.

[mledawn]

Finally had a chance to watch the episode and was quite proud of myself for staying largely spoiler-free (aside from knowing they catch up with Tommy).

I was so excited to see Marilyn from Northern Exposure and that whole exchange in the cabin made me laugh.

The brothers reuniting was fantastic. Joel finally breaking down with Tommy was very emotional, as was Ellie's anger at him later.

Definitely thought the monkeys would be aggressive, glad that trope was dodged.

Isn't the cardinal rule of stabbing wounds NOT to remove the item? 

Almost forgot - that cover of Depeche Mode's "Never Let Me Down Again" was lovely.

Edited February 23, 2023 by mledawn
Didn't want to leave out DM

[Kel Varnsen]

40 minutes ago, mledawn said:

Isn't the cardinal rule of stabbing wounds NOT to remove the item? 

It's been a long time since I did any first aid training, but I think the idea is that you leave the item in until you can get actual medical treatment. Since that doesn't seem like an option, and leaving the bat piece in forever isn't an option, I am not sure it matters.

 

[DesiJF]

53 minutes ago, mledawn said:

Almost forgot - that cover of Depeche Mode's "Never Let Me Down Again" was lovely.

According to the Podcast, the singer was Craig Mazen's daughter.

[Daisychain]

So, there's been ample advocacy of the fact that the relationship portrayed here between Joel and Ellie is a parent-child relationship. That is portrayed eloquently on screen but I have also very much enjoyed the official HBO podcast.  It is absolutely never boring and often descriptive and revelatory.  I have never played the video game and that explanation of translation from game to screen is fascinating.  

Anyhoo, the entire podcast on Ep 6 is Joel's fear of failing again.  To fail to carry out a parent's greatest duty, which is to protect their child.  He cares so much that his fear causes his body to break down.  The podcast is about the joy, duty, and worry of being a parent - even getting your daughter to cover "Never Let Me Down Again.'  

I tried to copy this correctly and failed:  On p.2 of this chat, @Anela says "He reminds me a bit of my dad. I was just thinking that. I say I'll do something, and he says, "I'm a dad, that's my job." 

Very similar, there is a very sweet story in the Ep 6 podcast and I think it was Craig Mazin, but sometimes I have a hard time differentiating who's speaking because my hearing (like Joel's) is slightly ragged.  The story was, Craig (I think), knew his daughter was not going to bed when directed, but staying up on devices, etc. So he would go upstairs often and just open the door slightly so she would know she really needed to go to bed.  And then she would finally do it, go to sleep.  He thought it was because he had "dad superpowers," but then he realized it was because he just checked on her constantly!

And that is what a lot of parenting is about -- just paying attention.  That's what Joel is afraid of -- not being good enough to do 2 watches in one night, being deaf in one ear, and not being able to pay attention enough (by himself, in an apocalypse of course).  It's an extraordinarily touching episode and of course I'm terrified about Joel  . . .

[paigow]

1 hour ago, mledawn said:

Isn't the cardinal rule of stabbing wounds NOT to remove the item? 

 

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

but I think the idea is that you leave the item in until you can get actual medical treatment. Since that doesn't seem like an option

It also depends if you are John Wick... Let yourself get stabbed to gain control of a knife, then remove it and kill your attacker with it...

[Capricasix]

@Daisychain Yes, it was Craig’s daughter. It may even be the same daughter who sang the cover of Never Let Me Down Again from the end of this episode.

[Daisychain]

14 minutes ago, Capricasix said:

Yes, it was Craig’s daughter. It may even be the same daughter who sang the cover of Never Let Me Down Again from the end of this episode.

Thanks Capricasix - love your username and your avatar - both favorites!  I do have to catch up with Picard.

 

 

 

[30 Helens]

On 2/21/2023 at 7:54 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Can dogs in this world actually smell infected on people, or was that a bluff with the intention of having anybody bitten give themselves away, like the story with the alleged lie detector pig covered in soot?

Nobody else brought this up, so I may have imagined it, but I believe there was an exchange between Joel and Tommy wherein Joel accused Tommy of bluffing with the dog and Tommy did not deny it, just kind of smiled.

That said, there are many reported cases of dogs smelling cancer and other ailments on people. My own stepfather reported his dog acting strangely, sniffing and licking him almost obsessively, just before he was diagnosed with a recurrence of cancer. I believe it happens. I’m just not sure Tommy believes it happens.

13 hours ago, conquistador said:

It is now the second week where this hot take (that nobody agrees with) has taken over the discussion…

Yes, but only if we let it. Honestly, I think sometimes the best course is just to not engage. 

[Daisychain]

1 hour ago, 30 Helens said:

That said, there are many reported cases of dogs smelling cancer and other ailments on people. My own stepfather reported his dog acting strangely, sniffing and licking him almost obsessively, just before he was diagnosed with a recurrence of cancer

Agree with you Helen on this - which makes the scene I remember (with the dog creeping out) more believable -- but I also missed the sly smile by Tommy.  Will ultimately re-watch and look for that!

Some dogs are crazy talented.  I was not long ago on a normal United economy flight from Chicago O'Hare to San Jose CA.  I got on shortly before boarding ended and had the aisle seat.  I kept wondering why the woman in the middle was touching my ankle/foot with her foot.  About 2 hrs and 45 minutes in I finally realized that there were 2 medium-large service dogs in the foot space under the middle and the window seat who were perfectly behaved and only occasionally  touched my ankle!  I had NO IDEA there were dogs down there.  They were trained in both bomb detection and hospital patient therapy, which made them even more awesome.

[MJ Frog]

On 2/21/2023 at 7:28 AM, paramitch said:

I really don't think these choices were accidental in an episode in which we see Ellie and Joel really cementing their father-daughter bond, and in which Joel also for the first time not only tells Ellie he cares about her, but he also displays absolutely open fear, concern, worry, and sadness to her for the first time. It's just a nice little echo of subtext to the larger arc we see.

Or, as always, I am reading way too much into everything. (It's a gift.)

Nope. I think you're spot on.

[BasilSeal]

8 hours ago, Nashville said:

• By now (T+20yrs AC) it would be safe to assume all the world’s grain crops from which flour might be derived have been exposed to the cordyceps spores.
• A short ponder, however, immediately reveals the staggering lack of real information we have to work with.  Did the spores infiltrate the base grain, the processed flour, or neither - simply attaching themselves externally and hitching a ride somewhere in the transport process?  Do different types of cooking impact the spores differently? Or is flour truly involved at all - part of a coincidental process?

IIRC Joel tell Ellie that the reason people got infected so quickly is because of a contaminated food source. A set piece segment shows the initial outbreak somewhere in Asia(?) where the police call in a local expert to asses what is wrong with a number of people who have fallen victim to the fungus, she identifies the problem and tells the police chief to bomb the city to try to contain the infection. Again, IIRC. the initial victims all worked at the same factory, so perhaps they were exposed in some sort of food processing plant?

 

Now you'd think that by this time the cordyceps would be all pervading around the world, and would have infected any plants that it could infect, which would lead to a kind of 'The Death of Grass' situation WRT human food supplies. This doesn't seem to be the case, it's clearly still possible to grow uncontaminated food, not sure how though, perhaps we just have to hand waive that one, but it's a significant omission if we do.

*Maybe*, it will emerge that eventually all food stocks will become contaminated, which would make finding a cure via Ellie even more vital, and will raise the stakes even more, particularly if when we eventually get to the firefly base where the sciency stuff happens, it turns out that making the cure involves cutting Ellie's head off, or something.

 

(though as i've already mentioned, so far this show has been very good at subverting cliched tropes like that)

[bethy]

6 hours ago, 30 Helens said:

Nobody else brought this up, so I may have imagined it, but I believe there was an exchange between Joel and Tommy wherein Joel accused Tommy of bluffing with the dog and Tommy did not deny it, just kind of smiled.

I don’t remember this, but it’s very possible I missed it. That would be interesting if they were just bluffing about the dog. 

2 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

IIRC Joel tell Ellie that the reason people got infected so quickly is because of a contaminated food source.

I think he said no one knew for sure what had happened, but that was the theory. I rewatched the first episode recently and, as someone mentioned at some point, there are several instances where Joel and Sarah miss out on chances to eat something with flour. I hadn’t noticed the first time, but when the neighbor mentions making cookies, Sarah is enthused about chocolate chips but when the woman says they’ll be raisin cookies, Sarah (quite appropriately) makes a face (the same one I made while watching). 

[conquistador]

13 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

It's been a long time since I did any first aid training, but I think the idea is that you leave the item in until you can get actual medical treatment. Since that doesn't seem like an option, and leaving the bat piece in forever isn't an option, I am not sure it matters.

 

Things are not looking super-duper for Joel medically. He’s at the risk for at least these things:

1. Infection at the site of the injury. This could lead to sepsis

2. Massive haemorrhage. This could lead to heart failure 

3. Perforated bowels, with the further risk of faeces spilling out into the abdominal cavity. This too can lead to sepsis

One could argue that the sharp and uneven edge of the bat handle is threatening to cause tearing damage to Joel’s internal organs. One could also argue that at least the handle functions as a plug until the opening has been sutured or healed on its own (after removing the piece in a more controlled environment). As a plug it would stop other foreign objects from entering the wound, but more importantly it would stop blood from spilling out.

With no access to antibiotics or IV fluids, we probably want to settle for something similar for Joel that Frank managed for Bill when he was shot, including cleaning the wound and putting pressure on it. Realistically he also needs surgical attention, but I don’t see that as a possibility…

Edited February 23, 2023 by conquistador

[paigow]

41 minutes ago, conquistador said:

With no access to antibiotics or IV fluids, we probably want to arrange something similar for Joel that Frank managed for Bill when he was shot, cleaning the wound and putting pressure on it.

Ellie could find one of these lying around...

[lasu]

On 2/22/2023 at 5:15 AM, LoveLeigh said:

It would not be considered an appropriate living arrangement for a 14 year old girl to be living alone with a man in his 40s who was not her father or adoptive father or relative.

Joel is her adoptive father.  Problem solved.

[paigow]

Just because this is HBO, incest and / or pedophilia are not guaranteed to happen.

[BasilSeal]

7 hours ago, bethy said:

here are several instances where Joel and Sarah miss out on chances to eat something with flour. I hadn’t noticed the first time, but when the neighbor mentions making cookies, Sarah is enthused about chocolate chips but when the woman says they’ll be raisin cookies, Sarah (quite appropriately) makes a face (the same one I made while watching). 

Good spot.

one thing that occurred to me was that if certain foods were contaminated, wouldn't that mean that any food you might already have in stock or might scavenge after the shit hits the fan could potentially be infected with the fungus?

[paramitch]

I listened to the podcast on this latest episode with Craig Mazin and Neil Druckmann (hosted by the fabulous Troy Baker), and one thing I loved is that Craig Mazin confirmed that The Goodbye Girl choice was deliberate, because he'd loved the movie when he was young, and because it depicts a strong found-family father-daughter bond in Elliot and Lucy. He said he included the scene where Lucy meets Elliot specifically because it is a situation where Lucy sees this man and instinctively gets a sense that "This guy would be a good dad to me." And then she basically pursues that (in a sweet, cute way), as she tries to encourage her mother to give Elliot a chance romantically, etc. 

So the parallel for TLOU is the same. Ellie met Joel and basically imprinted on him as a potential dad VERY quickly -- she met him, she felt this secret affinity for him as a potential protector (and for Tess, too, I think), and has spent every moment since then trying to get him to accept her as his child.

Which he now does. And it's adorable and so sweet... and he is PETRIFIED, he is actually disabled by this love he has for her now, to the point that he's having panic attacks.

So I think the ending here is even more poignant on second glance -- Ellie finally got the Dad she wanted, and now she's going to have to find a way to save him or he's going to die right when she thought she'd finally found the family she was looking for.

On 2/22/2023 at 9:17 AM, Capricasix said:

Did I mention yet how much I love this show? 😄 I’m rewatching this episode, and I just thought that there’s very little that’s random in every episode - Mazin and Druckmann have ensured that almost everything is purposeful. And so much of the action is nonverbal. Example: after J&E have their meal in the dining hall in Jackson, Tommy and Maria give them a tour of the town. Joel asks how they keep the place quiet, and one of the things Maria says is “we stay off the radio”. Joel gives Tommy a Look, and Tommy looks back sheepishly. I missed this the first time round, but it says so much without using any words at all.

I missed that too! That's a great detail, and explains so much.

On 2/22/2023 at 10:53 AM, Absurda said:

I can understand why Joel was salty with Tommy.  Here he was worried sick, so convinced that his last family was in trouble that he set out across country to find Tommy.  In the process he lost Tess and was saddled with a kid who is dependent on him and reminding him of past failures; a responsibility he didn't want.  The whole time Tommy was safe and cozy in a luxurious community with a wife and kid on the way.  I'd be pissed, too, once the initial relief and joy wore off.

I definitely think it's interesting to see both sides there -- I understood why Joel was angry, but I also understood that he was trapped in a vision of his brother that was years out of date (and he doesn't realize this until that conversation in the shed/workroom). I also got Tommy's genuine reasons for being cautious -- is this Joel the same one who was willing to do terrible things? And if so, would he do any of those terrible things HERE in this precious town? I don't think Tommy thinks Joel is evil, but I do think he was very much remembering the Joel who basically admitted (with Tess) "We're not good people."

Which was why I got Maria's caution and distrust of Joel, to the point that she was even trying to warn Ellie, and Ellie (much faster and more easily than Tommy) was able, as a child, to go, "He's not like that anymore," and not worry a moment further.

What's interesting is that ELLIE is the reason, I would argue, that Joel has returned to being his best self. The terrible irony is that even as he confesses his fear and self-doubt and despair to his brother in the shed, he is doing so as a genuinely good, brave man, who has done an incredible thing in protecting Ellie and getting her there.

On 2/22/2023 at 11:04 AM, shelley1234 said:

When Joel asked Ellie in the midst of the zombie attack in KC if she trusted him....it was an absolute yes.  And for me that is also one of the many reasons she was so upset and hurt when Joel was going to send her along with Tommy.  She knows Joel, she trusts Joel and feels safe with Joel.  I'd make an educated guess she has never had that before.   When she tells a passed out Joel in the final scene that she can't do this without him...she means it.  

Yes to all of this. For me, Ellie's feelings for Joel as her adoptive parent are so strong now it is as if she imprinted on him, like a duckling. Joel is her person, the Dad who will keep her safe. It's a liability to Joel because Joel has admitted he feels the same fierce parental love for her, but it's also a liability for Ellie because this is a kid who for the first time allowed herself to love and need someone, and she's just as terrified of losing him as he is of losing her. The final scene broke my heart.

On 2/22/2023 at 11:24 AM, BasilSeal said:

There are a couple of points where I thought, THIS is the bit where we find out they're planning to eat Ellie or feed her to the giant fungus god in the basement they have to appease with human sacrifice but no, we finally get an apocalyptic community that not only works, but which our heroes manage to leave without first turning it into a smoking ruin TWD style.

Not the first time that this show has managed to buck the trend of apocalyptic tropes though, in episode three Bill has a plan to survive that actually works and allows him to live out the rest of his life on his own terms, find love and live as his true self, which never happens in this genre because the story usually revolves around things going wrong with such best laid plans.

Having a protagonist that did everything right, and survived because of it, is even more of a revolutionary plot twist for the genre than having Q Anon prepper guy turn out to be a fan of musical theatre.

Comparisons with TWD are inevitable, but where this show is streets ahead is in the theme of the morality of survival and the idea  that anyone who has survived until now is in some way morally compromised because they will almost certainly have survived at the expense of others. In TWD the attempt to portray the characters' moral ambiguity tended to descend into an incoherent mess where one minute they're indulging in impractical levels of altruism, and the next decide to simply say 'feck it, kill them all and let god sort them out'. For no apparent good reason.

The zombies in TLoU are very much in the background and rightly so, they're not something that's brought out regularly to compensate for poor plot and characterisation in a 'look, over there, zombies, how cool is that?' manner.

We know more about the complex characters of the protagonists after just six episodes than we do many of the TWD characters after 12 years.

Beautifully put (I edited your quote to include the stuff I want to reply to).

I love the importance of the Frank and Bill "Long Long Time" episode for so many reasons -- the intelligence and humor of both Bill AND the overall episode as a whole, the radical presentation of a successful love story (between two middle-aged men, no less) in the middle of the apocalypse, and the importance of the episode to both Joel allowing himself to grieve Tess and allow Ellie into his heart, and the way it cements their dynamic -- it is the moment where Joel walks back in and says, "Okay, I'm taking you with me." etc.

As far as Bill's paranoia, I think I remember Mazin saying that while Bill may have believed 9/11 was a setup (or something Bush allowed to happen, etc.), his paranoia was more of the halfway variety -- so, kind of extreme, but not at, like, full-on QAnon or Pizzagate/Illuminati levels. Which makes sense to me -- Bill's too smart for that stuff. (Also, it will always crack me up in E3 when Bill yells at Frank "The government ARE all Nazis!" and Frank yells, "Well, yeah, NOW!"

Last but not least, one of the things you bring up here that drove me NUTS on TWD was the inconsistency of the zombies and how they worked. We'd get a whole episode arc on how the zombies were degrading biologically, then that would be totally abandoned, or we'd get a foundation that they were not biologically actually feasting, but then in other episodes, they are actually eating people, etc. Sometimes they were super fast, while other times they were presented as being comically slow. Etc. It was just such lazy storytelling. There was no consistency to it, the zombies were just whatever that week required (preferably with a gory, painful, sadistic death of a sweet or kind character, just to deliver the gut punch).

What I'm enjoying about TLOU universe is therefore that the science does attempt to be consistent. Cordyceps is an actual thing, the idea of it passing to humans is horrifying, we know how it spread (flour) and that the mutated fungus was resistant to heat. We know that the Infected are not trying to eat one another, they're compelled by the fungus (and its control of their brains) to spread the fungus. We know they get STRONGER as they get older, and evolve through a series of gross/cool fungi-human stages.

The worst aspect for me is the continued implication that the Infected are still the original people inside, it's just that the people have no control over themselves and are basically doused in these constant hallucinogens that cause them to follow the Cordyceps compulsion. For instance -- the Infected Ellie killed in the basement sure seemed like he was still aware of himself to some degree, as if being trapped and motionless allowed him to communicate that to her. He watches her closely and even gives a tiny nod before she kills him. Or at least that's how I interpreted it.

So I really like what this universe is doing, and I'm finding it believable. And I absolutely love how sparing it is with the Infected, and that there are several episodes where there are few or even none (as here).

 

 

[Capricasix]

One more thing I noticed in this ep, and it’s physical, non-verbal acting again, is that Joel occasionally rubs his right hand as if it still hurts. Of course, that’s the hand he used to beat the crap out of the FEDRA guard in the first episode. I’d be interested to know if that was purely Pedro, or the director, or both.

Also, the podcast mentioned that ths episode was directed by a woman who had grown up in the former Yugoslavia, I believe in Sarajevo, during the war there in the 1990s. They approached her about directing the Kansas City episodes, and she said that she really wasn’t interested in revisiting that scenario, but she wanted to direct the episode showing that civilization was still possible even among the horrors of the pandemic. Living, not just surviving.

[Nashville]

13 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

IIRC Joel tell Ellie that the reason people got infected so quickly is because of a contaminated food source. A set piece segment shows the initial outbreak somewhere in Asia(?) where the police call in a local expert to asses what is wrong with a number of people who have fallen victim to the fungus, she identifies the problem and tells the police chief to bomb the city to try to contain the infection. Again, IIRC. the initial victims all worked at the same factory, so perhaps they were exposed in some sort of food processing plant?

Yes, the first three episodes were pretty unrelenting in pounding into us the idea the initial species barrier jump to human infection started at a flour processing facility in Jakarta, Indonesia; was this ever confirmed to be established fact, however?  Or was it simply the last word/rumor being passed around by mainstream media prior to its collapse, with people (like Joel) assuming it to be true simply because it was the last word they’d heard from a quasi-reputable source?

A few thoughts:

1. Did the inter-species jump to Homo sapiens actually begin at the Indonesian flour mill, or was it simply first observed there?
2. Current primary infection vector is blood borne transmission via bites from infected sources, but was that the original - or only - vector of transmission?  The show has already alluded to at least some degree of potential for airborne transmission, by breathing in fungi spores.
3. In a related vein: after 2 decades of cordyceps going through its full human infection cycle, it should be safe to assume EVERYBODY has respirated the spores to some degree - by now it should be as endemic as ragweed pollen in urban atmospheres.  We’re not seeing people clutching their throats and dropping to the ground, though, which suggests three possibilities: (a) airborne spore transmission is no longer a viable infection vector (mutation?), (b) it is but is less potent - requiring accumulation of spore exposure until a critical mass tipping point is reached, for example - or (c) humans are developing some degree of resistance to the infection. 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Nashville
Typo

[Kate47]

It's that dichotomy; Joel has to literally protect Ellie from the horrors of the world but also wants to protect that part of her that dreams of being an astronaut and tells terrible jokes. He doesn't want her to be handling a gun or taking second watch because that means she's hardening to the world but he's not Superman and it'll stretch himself too thin if he can't rely on her as well.

That line when he's talking to Tommy about the dog sniffing and says "I just stood there and let it happen" is a great moment. He wanted to jump in the line of fire for her and (prudently, imo) didn't, and that's become this source of guilt and shame rather than "welp, it was just cargo." I think he had to say it out loud, to admit to himself that they were found family; that dichotomy of love and shame has existed in Joel since his daughter died.

He's been stuck in survival mode for 20 years (while Tommy was apparently able to move past it) and now his walls are crumbling.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Kate47

[Nashville]

On 2/22/2023 at 7:13 AM, cardigirl said:

wasn't flour (wheat) suspect is the initial spreading of the fungus?  Yet there was bread with Joel and Ellie's meal in Laramie.

Another point which had crossed my mind earlier, but I forgot to mention: different methods of ingredient preparation, cooking styles and temperatures, etc. could have widely ranging degrees of impact upon the fungi’s ability to survive the food prep process.  Baking bread requires longer exposures of different ingredients to higher temperatures than, say, making waffles.

[paigow]

5 hours ago, Nashville said:

Yes, the first three episodes were pretty unrelenting in pounding into us the idea the initial species barrier jump to human infection started at a flour processing facility in Jakarta, Indonesia

A legitimate quote from World-Grain.com

Indonesia doesn’t produce wheat and is entirely dependent on imported wheat for its flour milling sector. In an annual report on the grain and feed sector, dated March 27, 2021, the USDA attaché said that from 1970 until 1998, when all wheat imports were carried out by the state procurement company, BULOG, there were only five flour mills operating in Indonesia. 

Currently, 30 flour mills are operational across the archipelago, including 22 mills on Java Island, six mills on Sumatera Island and two mills in South Sulawesi, the report said. Despite a challenging 2020, the expansion of existing mills continues. Installed capacity in 2020-21 is estimated to reach 12.8 million tonnes, an increase from 12.6 million in 2019-20.

It stands to reason that Country Zero was not Indonesia, but the wheat exporter e.g. Australia

 

[Cheezwiz]

On 2/22/2023 at 11:24 AM, BasilSeal said:

A common theme for apocalyptic fiction is that the real monsters are the other people  who have been forced to do terrible things by impossible circumstances and TLoU conveys this idea perfectly, in the apocalypse there are no good guys, just different shades of grey.

 

Yes, THIS. It's why I'm finding this show interesting to watch. When people are struggling for basic survival, no one gets to have the moral high ground. Everyone is on shifting sand dunes.

[bitchin camaro]

7 hours ago, paigow said:

A legitimate quote from World-Grain.com

Indonesia doesn’t produce wheat and is entirely dependent on imported wheat for its flour milling sector. In an annual report on the grain and feed sector, dated March 27, 2021, the USDA attaché said that from 1970 until 1998, when all wheat imports were carried out by the state procurement company, BULOG, there were only five flour mills operating in Indonesia. 

Currently, 30 flour mills are operational across the archipelago, including 22 mills on Java Island, six mills on Sumatera Island and two mills in South Sulawesi, the report said. Despite a challenging 2020, the expansion of existing mills continues. Installed capacity in 2020-21 is estimated to reach 12.8 million tonnes, an increase from 12.6 million in 2019-20.

It stands to reason that Country Zero was not Indonesia, but the wheat exporter e.g. Australia

 

Interesting. I wonder if it was a conscious decision to "blame" a country that doesn't have a giant native wheat industry - avoiding a situation like when Oprah got sued for saying she'd never eat beef again.

Yeah, I know this is a fictional story but I've got to admit, it's made me not be too keen on adding mushrooms to anything I eat. (I am such a dork!)

[Capricasix]

8 hours ago, paigow said:

 

It stands to reason that Country Zero was not Indonesia, but the wheat exporter e.g. Australia

So, hmm…maybe the wheat was contaminated in Australia, but the higher temperatures/warmer climate in Indonesia triggered the mutation 🤔 Indonesia is closer to the equator than Australia and must have at least a subtropical, if not tropical climate.

I’m glad others think about this stuff as much as I do 😄

[paramitch]

I rewatched the episode (I really enjoy the fact that this show rewards rewatches with additional details), and one thing I haven't seen pointed out is that Tommy was the entire reason this journey began for Joel.

Tommy, not Ellie. The whole reason Tess and Joel took Ellie to begin with was to get the truck battery so they could go find (and save) Tommy.

So Tommy just going, "Hey, chill, bro, I'm fine!" when Joel arrives at Jackson is understandably upsetting for Joel. Tess died to help him get to Tommy. I mean, yes, by the time she was bitten, she had already pinned her hopes on Ellie and something bigger, but that wasn't the original reason she was there.

So it was more understandable to me that on first watch that Joel's reaction still has a lot of hidden hurt and anger toward Tommy. There's a lot that Tommy (and Maria) do not understand about what he's gone through (and lost) to get here.

I do think Tommy gets it by the end, though -- in the scene when Joel breaks down in the shed, and again in the stable on departure, Tommy's face really shows genuine heartbreak and love for his brother. I think he gets it in the end.

[b4pjoe]

On 2/22/2023 at 4:15 AM, LoveLeigh said:

I would not think there would be a "gotcha" moment. However, I worked in CPS, and our first priorIty was always to protect the child regardless of any perceived assumptions. Protection. It would not be considered an appropriate living arrangement for a 14 year old girl to be living alone with a man in his 40s who was not her father or adoptive father or relative. It would be looked at with a jaundiced eye even though there was no evidence at all of any sexual misconduct. 

So while a father/daughter relationship might be developing between Joel and Ellie, a healthier situation would be considered more acceptable and that is why I said at the first opportunity Joel should have left her back there. At first they were a team traveling together. But within this episode it was (emotional) "needs" that kept them together when there was another option.

But this is fiction, a make believe story, a TV show... so it will advance and my opinion remains strong and I accept I stand alone in my perceptions. 

Should have left her back where? In what situation should he have left her where she would have been better off without him? You think he should have let Tommy take her to the fireflies? How would that not be the same situation? Still an older man with a young girl not related but it is OK as long as it isn't Joel? You keep bringing this point up that only you are seeing. In the current story line there is NO BETTER option for her than Joel.

[Nashville]

4 hours ago, bitchin camaro said:

Interesting. I wonder if it was a conscious decision to "blame" a country that doesn't have a giant native wheat industry - avoiding a situation like when Oprah got sued for saying she'd never eat beef again.

If not, then TPTB gave themselves one helluva “out” by accident:

• One of the biggest hang-ups in TLoU’s apocalypse backstory has been how a crossover infection breaking out in Indonesia could cover the globe in little more than a day.  Southern Asia could be saturated pretty handily, of course - but the fastest connection to North America (Jakarta nonstop to LAX) takes 18+ hours.  Standard current epidemiological assumption for best-case (or most efficient case, at least) worldwide transmission of an infectious agent is ~48 hours - so how could a Jakarta-based Patient Zero cut that in half?  The most basic IRL logistics simply don’t support the premise.
• Viewing Jakarta as the initial breakout location and not the initial infection location, however, opens more doors for consideration.  The top 4 global grain-exporting countries are (in descending order) China, India, Russia and the U. S., which collectively produce ~46% of the world’s wheat supply.  If one of these were the original source of infection - and Jakarta simply the unlucky recipient of a shipment consisting of more than just wheat - then worldwide distribution in a drastically abbreviated timespan would make much more logistical sense, especially if the wheat/spore exposure-to-infection timeline is measured in days versus hours.

 

 

3 hours ago, Capricasix said:

I’m glad others think about this stuff as much as I do 

You and me both.  😆

[paigow]

3 hours ago, paramitch said:

So Tommy just going, "Hey, chill, bro, I'm fine!" when Joel arrives at Jackson is understandably upsetting for Joel. Tess died to help him get to Tommy.

Like Pvt. Ryan telling Capt. Miller that he will not leave with them... and incurring the anger of other rescue team members...

[BasilSeal]

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

Viewing Jakarta as the initial breakout location and not the initial infection location, however, opens more doors for consideration.  The top 4 global grain-exporting countries are (in descending order) China, India, Russia and the U. S., which collectively produce ~46% of the world’s wheat supply.  If one of these were the original source of infection - and Jakarta simply the unlucky recipient of a shipment consisting of more than just wheat - then worldwide distribution in a drastically abbreviated timespan would make much more logistical sense, especially if the wheat/spore exposure-to-infection timeline is measured in days versus hours.

I think this is the likely scenario here. As Indonesia imports all it's wheat for flour production then the contaminated grain will have come from elsewhere in the world and will have also been shipped elsewhere and world wide outbreaks happen once the contaminated  food hits the shops, here it happens earlier because exposure has happened during the manufacturing process..

I suspect there isn't any plot significance to the breakout infection being in Jakarta other than a possible narrative device that builds the threat by showing it first as an isolated outbreak in a far away place.

It also incrementally introduces the idea that governments might actually consider killing people to try and stop the spread of a disease. We start with foreigners doing it on the other side of the world, and end with US national guardsmen machinegunning innocent civilians as part of  a disease control strategy.

With the covid pandemic we've seen that govts might have to consider curtailing people's freedom of movement to prevent disease spread , so we already have an idea of the needs of the individual being placed secondary to the needs of the population as a whole.

When controlling diseases in animals, we tend to think in terms of populations rather than individuals, to control something like foot and mouth disease in cattle, we might decide to kill some healthy animals to create a 'firebreak' around an infected area, because as Joel says, the dead don't get infected. 

If the stakes were high enough then govts would eventually be forced to decide that maybe killing people wasn't off the table. The Jakarta story line is perhaps a narrative device that introduces this idea obliquely, and also give some context to how we get to the point in episode three where bills neighbours are killed in cold blood by US soldiers.

An addendum to this would be how the soldiers who carried out these orders actually live with this, which might go some way to explaining why FEDRA is the way it is, it's run and staffed by people who have had to switch off their empathy and place no value on individual life in order to live with what they've done.

[Capricasix]

There was an outbreak (maybe even an epidemic) of mad-cow disease in the UK in the 1990s, I think? And whole herds of cattle, even healthy ones, had to be slaughtered to stop the spread.

[Anela]

2 hours ago, Capricasix said:

There was an outbreak (maybe even an epidemic) of mad-cow disease in the UK in the 1990s, I think? And whole herds of cattle, even healthy ones, had to be slaughtered to stop the spread.

I wasn't allowed to give blood for years, because I lived in the UK, during a mad cow disease outbreak. I think they ditched that rule, in the past year. 

[Notwisconsin]

On 2/19/2023 at 10:51 PM, peridot said:

I wonder how Joel will survive that wound?

I don't think he does. He isn't in the preview for next week's shows.

[go4luca]

10 minutes ago, Notwisconsin said:

I don't think he does. He isn't in the preview for next week's shows.

I think the show runners did that on purpose.  As much as I'd riot if they killed off Pedro Pascal this early, I doubt they would.

[b4pjoe]

1 hour ago, Notwisconsin said:

I don't think he does. He isn't in the preview for next week's shows.

Spoiler

Next week is a flashback episode about Ellie before Joel.

[Daisychain]

15 hours ago, bitchin camaro said:

Yeah, I know this is a fictional story but I've got to admit, it's made me not be too keen on adding mushrooms to anything I eat. (I am such a dork!)

You are not alone.  Someone mentioned waffle mix the other day and I had a full-body shudder.

[Kate47]

8 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

It also incrementally introduces the idea that governments might actually consider killing people to try and stop the spread of a disease. We start with foreigners doing it on the other side of the world, and end with US national guardsmen machinegunning innocent civilians as part of  a disease control strategy.

They mention in the same episode that Boston was also bombed, so it looks like that particular idea took hold fast. I really loved that scene, the shaking of the cup when he says there are 14 workers unaccounted for.

[Capricasix]

I just finished watching Quo Vadis, Aida? directed by Jasmila Zbanic, who directed this episode. It’s absolutely gut-wrenching - based on a true story, the 1995 massacre of 8000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys in Srebrenica. The Dutch soldiers of the UN Protection Force, who were tasked with protecting the safe zone in and around Srebrenica, basically stood by and let it happen. 

[cambridgeguy]

8 hours ago, Daisychain said:

You are not alone.  Someone mentioned waffle mix the other day and I had a full-body shudder.

If you're going to be influenced by the show then you should be buying up cans of Chef Boyardee ravioli - the older the better.  That's five star dining.

[Notwisconsin]

i've had athlete's foot for years. impossible to get rid of.

[FrankOFoley]

7 minutes ago, Notwisconsin said:

i've had athlete's foot for years. impossible to get rid of.

Thanks for reminding me why I won’t rent bowling shoes.

[BasilSeal]

23 hours ago, paramitch said:

Last but not least, one of the things you bring up here that drove me NUTS on TWD was the inconsistency of the zombies and how they worked. We'd get a whole episode arc on how the zombies were degrading biologically, then that would be totally abandoned, or we'd get a foundation that they were not biologically actually feasting, but then in other episodes, they are actually eating people, etc. Sometimes they were super fast, while other times they were presented as being comically slow. Etc. It was just such lazy storytelling. There was no consistency to it, the zombies were just whatever that week required (preferably with a gory, painful, sadistic death of a sweet or kind character, just to deliver the gut punch).

What I'm enjoying about TLOU universe is therefore that the science does attempt to be consistent. Cordyceps is an actual thing, the idea of it passing to humans is horrifying, we know how it spread (flour) and that the mutated fungus was resistant to heat. We know that the Infected are not trying to eat one another, they're compelled by the fungus (and its control of their brains) to spread the fungus. We know they get STRONGER as they get older, and evolve through a series of gross/cool fungi-human stages.

Thanks for the eloquent and well argued reply.

I agree WRT having a plausible explanation for the zombies. In some respects it doesn't matter that the zombies in TWD don't make any sense, they're just a metaphor, a plot device to create the ongoing existential threat, how the characters react to this threat is what the story is about so we suspend our disbelief and just accept this one thing.

It works as long as the show only focuses on the characters dealing with the situation, i think Kirkman once said he wasn't interested when writing the TWD comic in how the zombies started, or how they work, they're just there and people have to deal with them.

That's fine when TWD was about the dynamics of survival and the moral compromised people make in order to survive, usually at the expense of others.

TloU though is all about finding a cure, so they do need a plausible basis for the monsters in their world, which is essential to give some sort of pseudo scientific reasoning to whatever cure Ellie is the last hope for.

TWD appear to have pivoted now the main show has finished and i suspect the spin offs, like the execrable TWD: world beyond, will be about finding a 'cure' too. Apparently, the Daryl Dixon spin off is set in Europe, the end credit scene in world beyond was in some derelict lab in France where apparently the zombie er, virus? bacteria? fungus? magic spell? originated, so presumably these things are connected.

You can't really have a load of scientists studying the zombies, and not one of them seemed to notice that said zombies, sorry, walkers, defy the laws of physics, being as they are a sort of necrotic perpetual motion machine. TWD has long passed its sell by date but if they hang the ongoing content on finding a scientific explanation for something that has no scientific explanation because it's a physical impossibility, then i think they're on an even bigger hiding to nothing than they were when they thought bashing people's  skull in with a baseball bat was a totally cool thing to pimp for likes with on social media.

Surviving at the expense of others is something that's often a key theme to apocalyptic dramas, the moral ambiguity of survival and the idea that the humans are the real monsters is an interesting concept. In TWD they repeatedly use the phrase "good people" to describe themselves and others when what they really ought to be saying is....

 

TWD always fumbled the ball WRT this particular theme, the writers made the characters do confusing and contradictory things to try and illustrate moral ambiguity but ended up making them look like idiots. TLoU however has really knocked it out of the park WRT how they portray the complexities of how people weigh personal survival against moral responsibilities.

We know that Joel and tommy have harmed others  in order to survive themselves,   in this episode it seems Tommy has come to terms with this and is able to move on whereas Joel hasn't.

I also think they manage to convey that eve though we're on Joel and Ellie's side, the people who attack them in KC and at the university are just desperate people doing what they need to do to survive themselves, and ultimately only doing what Joel has done to others.

Likewise with FEDRA, though they are a brutal crypto fascist regime, we see the people who've overthrown them in KC aren't much better.

Perry tells Apocalypse Karen that although her brother was a great man, he didn't change anything, but she did. So maybe the level of ruthless brutality Kathleen employed was necessary to free them from FEDRA. Her flaw is that once the overthrow is complete she's unable to pivot to some sort of truth and reconciliation phase, instead she continues to seek vengeance. Revenge is open ended and self destructive, and it ends up destroying her.

But anyway, enough rambling, i think that the moral ambiguity theme is particularly hard to do well and the way they're handling it on this show is the key reason i think TLoU is shaping up to be something very special. I hope they can keep it up.

 

[BasilSeal]

17 hours ago, Capricasix said:

There was an outbreak (maybe even an epidemic) of mad-cow disease in the UK in the 1990s, I think? And whole herds of cattle, even healthy ones, had to be slaughtered to stop the spread.

With BSE, the UK ministry of agriculture killed just the animals that showed symptoms, they very rarely slaughtered whole herds unless they had very high rates of infection because BSE wasn't directly transmissible from animal to animal.

It was thought (and we still don't know for sure) to have been the result of using meat and bone meal as a protein additive in cattle feed, because it was cheaper than soya. this was something that had been doe for  many years, but apparently they changed the regulations of how the bone meal was processed to allow it to be processed at a lower temperature, and it's thought that this allowed infected prions from brain material to survive the manufacturing process and be fed back to cattle in their feed.

There was an outbreak of foot and mouth, which is a highly infectious viral disease, in 2000, they slaughtered whole herds including many that were simply at risk rather than infected to try and control that.

[paigow]

2 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

I also think they manage to convey that eve though we're on Joel and Ellie's side, the people who attack them in KC and at the university are just desperate people doing what they need to do to survive themselves, and ultimately only doing what Joel has done to others.

Joel expects most human interaction to be zero-sum. His kills generally are not hate driven. Just that leaving the opponent alive is not a desirable outcome... 

[BasilSeal]

8 minutes ago, paigow said:

Joel expects most human interaction to be zero-sum. His kills generally are not hate driven. Just that leaving the opponent alive is not a desirable outcome... 

Joel doesn't want to kill the elderly sniper, he literally begs the guy not to go for his gun.

Possibly the old timer was more worried that if he let Joel go without putting up resistance, Apocalypse Karen would turn up and demand to see his supervisor.