S05.E09: Allegiance

[Whimsy]

Quote

June and Luke prepare for a rescue mission. Serena tries new tactics with her oppressive hosts. Lawrence makes a surprising proposal to elevate his status.

Original air date 11/2/22

[Brn2bwild]

Why do I have a feeling Lawrence will end up dead by the end of this season?  Either by his own hand or "suicide by firing squad."  His power seems so precarious, and he seems really desperate for New Bethlehem to work.

The situation with Naomi confused me - it just seems out of place in Gilead to allow a woman (a "useless" widow, no less) to choose her husband.  I thought when Naomi hesitated that Lawrence would tell her that he was just humoring her, and either she agreed to marry him or she would be an aunt and Angela reassigned to a new family.

Knew that the Hannah mission would fail, but it was hard to watch the aftermath.  Some really great acting by Elizabeth Moss, especially during her phone call with Lawrence.  On the bright side, Hannah remembers her original name!

I never thought I'd root for Serena to escape a situation where she was the handmaid, but Mrs. Wheeler was horrendous.  Hopefully the blue-haired woman will take her to the American Embassy. 

[chocolatine]

I don't understand the US strategy of risking so many resources to raid a Gilead wife school. When Tuello talked about military action against Gilead, I thought he meant something on a much larger scale. This failed raid was a stupid way to blow their cover. I know this is a show about June and everyone is supposed to want to risk everything to help her get Hannah back, but that's just not how it works with military action.

It's hard to believe the "fertility center" was completely unsecured that Serena could just walk out the back door. Serena should ask the woman in the Jeep to take her straight to Tuello's office because there's nobody else in Canada who is able or willing to help her. Though even Tuello is probably preoccupied with more important matters now.

I'm happy that June is finally done with Lawrence (though who knows how long it will last), but I thought her secret meeting with Nick to exchange "I love you"s was complete bullshit. Really not interested in a love square between June, Luke, Nick, and Rose.

[dmc]

“She’s two minutes late.”

I didn’t go into this episode with any feelings of hope and even with the bar leveled at DEFCON 1 despair…I still feel even emptier after watching it

No realist who watches this show thought Hannah was getting out but June somehow believes against all odds and watching her hopes rise and fall is brutal

The best way to view this episode is a contrast between its two seasoned manipulators:

Tuello and Lawrence

And it’s two mystery men, Nick and Mr. Wheeler.

Tuello is a gigantic user. He’s a patriot for a country that barely exists and he’s willing to use anyone at his disposal to save it despite the peril it puts them in or their clear trauma. He’s been working virtually everyone.  He’s assurances to June for killing Fred and his assistance with Hannah is not a gift.  He wants something.  The issue with Tuello is his manipulation works in starts and stops, so his endgame is still unclear.  His “You should stand up” to June…he clearly knows he’s putting her in peril to his own end.

Lawrence

Lawrence is currently working June, Serena and Naomi. Naomi he needs to remain in power in Gilead. Serena he needs to show the world an example of fertility assistance outside of Gilead and how it could work in other countries. June he knows is disappointed with the US, Canada, and herself and is using that to try to bring her back into positive PR for Gilead through whatever ties (Hannah and Nick) he can use.

The rest of the episode is designated to two men who despite their screen time we still don’t know their motivations

Nick

Is Nick a true believer who only was against Gilead because of his love for June?  Nick came into Gilead because the democratic world was not kind to him with opportunities he felt entitled to.  He rebelled when he was lower cog with no power in Gilead but now that he has power he seems okay with the status quo. Is he, do we want to feel Nick is better than he is?

Mr.  Wheeler

We know from Lawrence, his assessment of men that support Gilead is a pretense of piety for absolute power. Power in the actual sense of government but also over people they view as property. If this is essentially correct, is Mr. Wheeler someone who will be manipulated by attraction to Serena and will we see replay of the June/Fred relationship with him and Serena.  

At episode 9, all female characters are still largely under the machinations of the male characters and we only have one season left.

Are we ever going to see these   misogynistic institutions burned to the ground? 

Edited November 2, 2022 by dmc

[HMFan]

OMG.  I so called it with Lawrence hooking up with Putnam.  Putnam never said yes, but Lawrence implied she did.

When Serena was that close to the door, I was like, Serena, run because you may never know when you will get the chance again. That maid knew all she needed to do was give Serena the option. The maid is certainly seeing a glimpse into what Gilead is and how it will jeopardize her personal liberties.

Mr. Wheeler as well with Serena at the Gilead fertility center interactions.  He appeared shocked, bewildered and disgusted by his wife's attempts to control Serena and her baby.

Perhaps Tuello will now sponsor her - or June now that it has become clear that they need someone who can travel back and forth and be a dual agent since Nick isn't obviously on board.

However, Nick's wife Rose, was also directly insulted in this episode, and she's probably now worrying about what will happen to her child under Gilead which is the main reason Nick can't leave -- he wants to be happy and safe.

Ever notice how Mr. Wheeler's mannerisms seem very similar to that of Lawrence?  It's like Wheeler is the Lawrence of Canada.

Edited November 2, 2022 by HMFan

[HMFan]

38 minutes ago, dmc said:

“She’s two minutes late.”

I didn’t go into this episode with any feelings of hope and even with the bar leveled at DEFCON 1 despair…I still feel even emptier after watching it

No realist who watches this show thought Hannah was getting out but June somehow believes against all odds and watching her hopes rise and fall is brutal

The best way to view this episode is a contrast between its two seasoned manipulators:

Tuello and Lawrence

And it’s two mystery men, Nick and Mr. Wheeler.

Tuello is a gigantic user. He’s a patriot for a country that barely exists and he’s willing to use anyone at his disposal to save it despite the peril it puts them in or their clear trauma. He’s been working virtually everyone.  He’s assurances to June for killing Fred and his assistance with Hannah is not a gift.  He wants something.  The issue with Tuello is his manipulation works in starts and stops, so his endgame is still unclear.  His “You should stand up” to June…he clearly knows he’s putting her in peril to his own end.

Lawrence

Lawrence is currently working June, Serena and Naomi. Naomi he needs to remain in power in Gilead. Serena he needs to show the world an example of fertility assistance outside of Gilead and how it could work in other countries. June he knows is disappointed with the US, Canada, and herself and is using that to try to bring her back into positive PR for Gilead through whatever ties (Hannah and Nick) he can use.

The rest of the episode is designated to two men who despite their screen time we still don’t know their motivations

Nick

Is Nick a true believer who only was against Gilead because of his love for June?  Nick came into Gilead because the democratic world was not kind to him with opportunities he felt entitled to.  He rebelled when he was lower cog with no power in Gilead but now that he has power he seems okay with the status quo. Is he, do we want to feel Nick is better than he is?

Mr.  Wheeler

We know from Lawrence, his assessment of men that support Gilead is a pretense of piety for absolute power. Power in the actual sense of government but also over people they view as property. If this is essentially correct, is Mr. Wheeler someone who will be manipulated by attraction to Serena and will we see replay of the June/Fred relationship with him and Serena.  

At episode 9, all female characters are still largely under the machinations of the male characters and we only have one season left.

Are we ever going to see these   misogynistic institutions burned to the ground? 

Especially after Mr. Wheeler responded "Oh yeah" to Serena when she said "praise be."

[dmc]

8 minutes ago, HMFan said:

Especially after Mr. Wheeler responded "Oh yeah" to Serena when she said "praise be."

Yes.  Serena’s main flaw this season is not seeing what’s in front of her face. When you read historical books on slavery, the main scare when sold is loss of children of course and a new master with a sexual interest. 
 

Edited November 2, 2022 by dmc

[Black Knight]

6 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Why do I have a feeling Lawrence will end up dead by the end of this season?  Either by his own hand or "suicide by firing squad."  His power seems so precarious, and he seems really desperate for New Bethlehem to work.

Yes, I posted in the last episode thread that I felt Lawrence was going to be a "big death," and this episode made me more certain of that. He talked again about his plan to reform Gilead step by step. The show wrapped up the one remaining loose end he and June had: She told him about her part in Eleanor's death, and we got confirmation that he'd always known that. (Important because it means June's confession isn't a way of causing him to drop his idea of reforming Gilead and instead going all in on the horribleness of it.) And the show established that Naomi is resentful of him for Warren's death. I think she will play a part in his downfall. The moment where she clocked that he's still wearing his wedding ring from Eleanor was interesting. My guess is he will die in the finale. If so, it was nice of the show to give Bradley Whitford this episode to direct on his way out the door.

The Wheelers making Serena feel insignificant gives me life, but obviously that wasn't going to go on forever. I'm sure she'll somehow end up at June's asking her to hide her and her son and June will agree because the baby is innocent blah blah and shouldn't be separated from his mother. And we're just going to pretend that sociopathic narcissists aren't one of the worst kinds of parent for a child to have. Not that the Wheelers should be raising him either.

I wish they'd explain about the Martha at the Wheelers. Is she a paid servant that just goes along with being called a "Martha"? Is she a prisoner? Judging by her looks and behavior in this episode, she does not seem like a true believer.

So suddenly the border between Canada and Gilead is well-defined and enforced again, with the American planes shot down as soon as they cross. (But it's still totally easy for Nick and June to meet up wherever the hell they're meeting - Gilead? Canada? No Man's Land?) Good job on the casting for the captain of the flight. I knew he was a dead man walking, but the actor made a strong impact in the few seconds of screentime they gave him of establishing his character as a competent, good-hearted hero whose death is a real loss to the world. His poor daughter.

They've really timed the arc (if I can even call it that) with the protestors poorly. It would have made much more sense if they'd been at something like a 5, appearing more frequently earlier in the season, and then the military action Lawrence referenced that Nick is leading against Canada occurs, and then the protestors ratchet up to 11. Instead they were basically introduced in the last episode (minus a brief mention or two from characters earlier in the season) already at 10 and now they're shooting at a little girl. The show should have had the Gileadean military action against Canada take place first.

[The Mighty Peanut]

I wonder if the blue haired woman was done on purpose given that "blue haired feminists" represent everything wrong with society according to incel/men's rights groups (especially if they have *gasp* tattoos).

Well, I'm calling Serena as the first member of New Bethlehem. And yeah obviously she's betrayed Gilead tons of times so it doesn't make any sort of continuity sense, but I think overall, thematically, it fits. Serena is the only character who really is between nations. She wants the personal freedoms of Canada and the religion of Gilead without the inconveniences of either. She wants exactly what Lawrence described--Gilead without the crimes against humanity.

Of course she only cares because the atrocities finally started to affect her personally, but unlike June, Serena is a believer and would be perfectly willing to be a mouthpiece. We know she's good at PR. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by The Mighty Peanut

[AntFTW]

This episode reminds me of the Stanford prison experiment. The Wheelers’ house is a simulation of Gilead and everyone within it is starting to truly believe they are in Gilead.

Edited November 2, 2022 by AntFTW

[Baltimore Betty]

Did I miss something, June and Luke are now living in a different house? When did that happen?

My prediction is The Widow Putnam will for sure have something to do with Lawrence's demise but that won't help elevate her in the least and will put her on the market once again and who knows what or whom will be waiting for her.

Serena will need baby supplies, diapers, clothes, etc...I get her escape was a split second decision but for her to stand by the door she ran out of and try to flag down cars...I kept yelling for her to run away and run fast.  

Since there is no formal handmaid roles in Canada how was Mrs. Wheeler getting away with her keeping Serena, (in a handmaid role), and the baby? Could there be criminal charges filed against them by Serena?  I doubt she will go to Tuello for help, he gave her an option of his protection but she was like, "nah, I'm good," and he was like, "Ok, suit yourself, bye girl." 

Show of hands of who is surprised that June once again is to blame for innocent people dying for her cause.  Where are the other parents of girls stuck in Gilead wanting to get their kids back? This attempt of raiding the school made it seem like it was just for the return of Hannah.  At this point if they did get Hannah (does she even want to leave Gilead?), she would need deprogramming and it could take years for her to not want to go back to her life there.  

Did I hear Tuello say that the Wives School was in Colorado? So I guess there is no No Man's Land there as a buffer.

[Redrum]

8 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

The situation with Naomi confused me - it just seems out of place in Gilead to allow a woman (a "useless" widow, no less) to choose her husband.  I thought when Naomi hesitated that Lawrence would tell her that he was just humoring her, and either she agreed to marry him or she would be an aunt and Angela reassigned to a new family.

I suspect with upper level wives, there's a certain amount of mourning etc allowed while they look for an agreeable husband. I also suspect Naomi as an infertile woman married to someone executed may not be a catch but Lawrence, knowing she's not especially willing, is allowing her the pretense of considering him instead of just telling her she's kinda got to marry him. 

[Black Knight]

18 minutes ago, Baltimore Betty said:

At this point if they did get Hannah (does she even want to leave Gilead?), she would need deprogramming and it could take years for her to not want to go back to her life there.  

She's held onto her old name and not only remembers how to write it, she actively wrote it down in this episode in a huge violation of Gilead law. The show wanted us to see that she's far from totally brainwashed. Her age now likely helps; that's the age when children often start pushing boundaries and are not so willing to just believe what adults/authority figures say.

[belladonna77]

I'm really interested in Hannah/Agnes' mindset right now.  We can see she's not totally brainwashed by Gilead and I would love to know how much she has been putting on a show for the McKenzies.  

[Helena Dax]

I'm glad Serena was able to run away. The situation with the Wheelers was bizarre and although I'm no expert in Canadian law, I'm pretty sure that their actions were illegal.

To me, this thing between Naomi and Lawrence makes zero sense from his pov. She's officially barren, which means they would be assigned a Handmaid. Lawrence wouldn't want that, and I doubt he could just pretend with Naomi there. Also, he had her husband killed, which is all kinds of twisted. I mean, I doubt she loved him, but still. I agree that everything seems to indicate that he'll kick the bucket in the finale, which is sad because right now I find him more interesting than June, Luke, Nick, Tuello and the ghost of Moira.

I wonder what's going on with Rose. One of the Wives seemed to imply that there was something wrong with her genetics.

[Redrum]

4 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

Did I hear Tuello say that the Wives School was in Colorado? So I guess there is no No Man's Land there as a buffer.

Yes, at the Air Force Academy. This is where I ask myself, how is Gilead affording all of this?

7 hours ago, HMFan said:

When Serena was that close to the door, I was like, Serena, run because you may never know when you will get the chance again. That maid knew all she needed to do was give Serena the option. The maid is certainly seeing a glimpse into what Gilead is and how it will jeopardize her personal liberties.

Mr. Wheeler as well with Serena at the Gilead fertility center interactions.  He appeared shocked, bewildered and disgusted by his wife's attempts to control Serena and her baby.

I liked that Serena finally wised up and ran. I do think the story is leading to Serena being the queen of New Bethlehem, not June.

I don't like Mr. Wheeler being shocked by his wife's actions because I feel like Mrs. Wheeler is buying into a lot of negative female depictions surrounding babies. She's the crazy baby snatcher losing her mind over access to a child. This show pretty much always says "give a woman a little power and she uses her petty issues and her wild emotions to make decisions" and its not compelling to have all the women be batshit for babies.  

7 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

I wonder what's going on with Rose. One of the Wives seemed to imply that there was something wrong with her genetics.

Rose has some sort of limp that is apparently congenital. 

[Black Knight]

30 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

One of the Wives seemed to imply that there was something wrong with her genetics.

Given that Rose's father is a "top Commander" per Nick, the Wife's comment was...unwise, to say the least. She's lucky Rose seems to be a nice person.

[revbfc]

There’s a part of me that suspects June was stupid enough to have Lawrence’s phone on her at all times so Gilead could get all the intel they needed.

As for everything else: THT is getting on my last nerve.  I already live in a world where the crazy religious freaks keep winning.  Give us some fucking hope, show!

[Black Knight]

8 minutes ago, revbfc said:

There’s a part of me that suspects June was stupid enough to have Lawrence’s phone on her at all times so Gilead could get all the intel they needed.

I don't think that was necessary. Lawrence knew the metadata from the video he sent June would be used to find the location of the Wife School. The American planes were naturally going to take the shortest route from Canada to Gilead to reach the Wife School, to minimize the time spent airborne in Gileadean airspace. So knowing where to position the anti-aircraft equipment was trivially easy to determine. But additionally, Tuello had "sources" that were clearly compromised, feeding him false information about Gileadean radar and a "window of opportunity" for the planes to fly in.

I agree a win for the good guys would be nice. It's one reason I wish we didn't have a sixth season of this show to get through.

A contrast between June and Serena in this episode struck me on further thought. At the fertility center opening, Serena cheerfully talks up Gilead with no qualms, because she's all about herself - she loves the adulation she's getting, she doesn't care aside from how it affects her personally that Gilead is a terrible place, and she has no lines she won't cross for her primary goals of elevating herself and keeping her son with her. June refuses Lawrence's demand to talk up Gilead, because as much as she wants to be with Hannah she has moral lines she won't cross, like promoting an evil dictatorship. She's not a saint, but she's not a sociopathic narcissist either.

[SourK]

LMAO the blue-haired girl is my favourite character. The way she just stares at Serena and her insane, no-context request and then she's like, "You know what? I'm in!"

Otherwise, I really didn't enjoy this. I think I actually hate June now? I decided while she was on the phone with Lawrence and she cycled through, like, five different motivations, from randomly being Walter White at him to begging him to save her daughter to telling him to fuck himself to trashing the landscaping... and then every emotion she expressed was conveyed by shaking her head.

Also, I think it's unkind for people to picket while the Americans are trying to hold a memorial service (why they did it there instead of at the embassy or something IDK), but a scene where a little girl learns to say the pledge of allegiance while looking at a photo of a brave soldier who died... kind of made me want the Americans to go home?

10 hours ago, HMFan said:

When Serena was that close to the door, I was like, Serena, run because you may never know when you will get the chance again. That maid knew all she needed to do was give Serena the option. The maid is certainly seeing a glimpse into what Gilead is and how it will jeopardize her personal liberties.

That was the most tense moment I can remember in a long time. I didn't care about 99% of what was happening, but I was still like, "Go, Serena. OMG, go now! You don't get another chance!"

3 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

I'm glad Serena was able to run away. The situation with the Wheelers was bizarre and although I'm no expert in Canadian law, I'm pretty sure that their actions were illegal.

Honestly, my main thought when Mrs. Wheeler slapped her was, "Okay, there's an unambiguous assault." I'd say I don't know how they think they can get away with this, but apparently in the universe of this show, they can?

3 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

To me, this thing between Naomi and Lawrence makes zero sense from his pov. She's officially barren, which means they would be assigned a Handmaid. Lawrence wouldn't want that, and I doubt he could just pretend with Naomi there.

She already has a child, so I think that's probably enough to satisfy Gilead, at least for a while.

[The Mighty Peanut]

12 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

A contrast between June and Serena in this episode struck me on further thought. At the fertility center opening, Serena cheerfully talks up Gilead with no qualms, because she's all about herself - she loves the adulation she's getting, she doesn't care aside from how it affects her personally that Gilead is a terrible place, and she has no lines she won't cross for her primary goals of elevating herself and keeping her son with her. June refuses Lawrence's demand to talk up Gilead, because as much as she wants to be with Hannah she has moral lines she won't cross, like promoting an evil dictatorship. She's not a saint, but she's not a sociopathic narcissist either

Yep, I thought the same sort of thing. She honestly feels it's just a matter of having a more sensible theocracy, the kind she imagined in her book. I think she really believes that clean air and water and faith cures infertility. The way she was muttering in the hospital about the doctors refusing to let things resolve themselves naturally, that was from her heart. She doesn't seem to ever really connect that Gilead is totally evil because in her mind they've got the right idea and are just working out the kinks. 

[circumvent]

4 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

To me, this thing between Naomi and Lawrence makes zero sense from his pov. She's officially barren, which means they would be assigned a Handmaid. Lawrence wouldn't want that, and I doubt he could just pretend with Naomi there.

The way he said, it would be an agreement that she would have to abide by, meaning no ceremonies in exchange for protection and her silence. Since she has a child, the pressure wouldn't be so high

Aunt Lydia saying that Lawrence was willing to set aside the fact that HE had Putnam killed in front of Naomi was quintessential Aunt Lydia.

I felt that this episode was too disjointed. Didn't like it at all. The fact that Hannah is writing her name is kind of pointless. With one episdoe to go, what are they going to do with this information? Maybe next season but I guess it loses some of the expectation.

Nick says that Gilead is changing but it is all the same, not sure what they want with that. Is Nick just another patriarchal douche, or he is too naive to see that the place is still evil? 

I wonder if they will go full eugenics with Nick's baby if it inherits whatever gene Rose has. Add the fact that Rose was allowed to exist to the fact that there are black people in Gilead to the butchery of a great book.

And obviously, they had to throw in the "evil allies" - Russia, China, North Korea. Whoever inserted that line must be the biggest American imperialist in the writer's room. Also, the pledge of allegiance at the end almost make me vomit. I don't recite it, ever, I don't stand for it, I despise the sentiment. 

The shots at the end were clearly directed at June so I wonder who ordered that - Lawrence, who ordered that they missed it on purpose, so they can try to convince her to go to NB, or one of the other commanders, who went over Lawrence's head?

I really hate what they did to the book. Gilead is about 7 years old in the show. In the book, it took decades, or centuries, for them to cause havoc around the world, they were successful in isolation, but they left their mark. There was mystery and dread, not heroics and sarcastic weird allies across borders

[Baltimore Betty]

1 hour ago, SourK said:

4 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

She already has a child, so I think that's probably enough to satisfy Gilead, at least for a while.

Technically she will have two children, Commander Putnam knocked up Mackenna Grace's character, if Naomi marries Lawrence she may be able to keep that baby.

[greekmom]

I don't understand you show.
Mrs. Wheeler states that her husband doesn't report to those commanders but who ordered the Wheelers to take in Serena and then how were the Wheelers able to get Noah?  Again, I don't think the lady is playing with a full deck but you can tell she wears the pants in the family. In one way, yeah it's nice to see Serena get hers but in another way I feel bad the baby is with those nutters. Which is why how would the PR their way out of getting a hold of the baby and Serena out of the picture?  
I don't understand why Serena didn't appeal to Tuello in the first place. Time and time again.  Especially at the end when she gets in blue haired lady's car. Go to the US embassy and fall on their feet.
Again, I don't see Canadians acting the way they are. We are just too nice and Americans are our neighbours.  We've helped them before in their time of need. Plus there is a population drop. The influx of refugees would be a benefit.
I don't get Lawrence being so vindictive to June after everything. I don't get how he would even think she would want to come to New Bethlehem and watch her young daughter be married to some old goat at age 15 or so and endure being raped.  I would love to know what Hannah remembers besides writing her name.  Good on June for telling Lawrence off about Elenore. I don't get how Lawrence thinks he can "fix things". 
Oh Lawrence, you are in a bed of good company with China, Russia and North Korea. 
Gilead is so stupid. They know what a force June is. If they just gave Hannah back, June would likely go quietly into the night.  
 I don't get Nick either. Why he is so pro Gilead when he has seen and felt the impact. I can't see it's because Rose's family is so high up. What happens when Rose gives birth and the baby is considered by Gilead standards, a "shredder"? Then they would have wished they were in Canada.
 

[PsychoDrone]

This episode was ridiculous and predictable.  Why is America/Tuello telling June and Luke ALL the details about the secret mission?  Why are June and Luke allowed to be in the operations room for the secret mission?  Why would the families be told anything about the secret mission?  I mean, seriously, WTF?!?!?  If anything, the mission failed because the secret mission wasn't all that secret.  And, who didn't guess that the commander leading the mission wasn't going to be killed.  It's no wonder America (Alaska and Hawaii) can't accomplish anything.  The "leaders" are idiots.

Another thing about the mission.  Why are they having a vigil for the soldiers on the mission?  This was an embarrassment and supposedly a secret.  Tuello would have met with the families of the killed soldiers privately and offered his condolences.  Certainly wouldn't have been an announcement of the fallen soldiers in public for all to see.

The show really wants us to feel sorry for Serena.  Could they make Mrs. Wheeler look and act any more crazy?  She's way over the top.  Serena was much more effective when tormenting June than Wheeler is lording over Serena.  Regardless, karma has come for Serena and I have no sympathy for her.  Just don't hurt the baby.

Lawrence is manipulating it all.  He is manipulating June, Nick, other commanders, America, everybody.  If he isn't directly manipulating things, then he certainly knows how to turn things in his favor.  I felt he orchestrated the whole mission with America to bring June to New Bethlehem.  Maybe that's a little much, but he knows how to play on Nick and June's emotions.  Will Putnam be the one that initiates his downfall?  Maybe, but doubtful.

[Whimsy]

I don’t understand, either, why Tuello told anyone about the mission and especially how he could let them be in the room when it went down. I know the show is about June, primarily, but this show just lets her be places and k so things ghat she really shouldn’t. 

As a past shipper, even I didn’t see the point of June and Nick meeting. Now I don’t ship June with anyone because I find her infuriating and exhausting.

On a personal note- my daughter is a pastry chef at a restaurant in Boston and she said that Margaret Atwood was in the restaurant dining tonight!  I thought that was pretty cool. 

[Quilt Fairy]

I, for one, just felt sorry for the shrub that June was attacking.  It was an innocent. 

[crashdown]

4 hours ago, SourK said:

LMAO the blue-haired girl is my favourite character. The way she just stares at Serena and her insane, no-context request and then she's like, "You know what? I'm in!"

Yeah, I love her, too. I have a fantasy that Serena will just run away with her, dye her own hair green, and go live on a commune with cool people to finally learn to be a decent human being. If we never see Serena again, that's my ending for her and I'm sticking with it! The blue-haired girl is unfortunately a one-off (she's not listed in IMDB for the next episode), which was a bummer for me. I was kind of hoping that she'd turn out to be Melanie or someone else from The Testaments.

56 minutes ago, Whimsy said:

As a past shipper, even I didn’t see the point of June and Nick meeting. Now I don’t ship June with anyone because I find her infuriating and exhausting.

These Nick meetings are really kind of comical, because they all seem to be written by fourteen-year-old girls who think that love is like Leo and Kate in The Titanic. They're always done exactly the same way--mournful longing, confessions of love, the last-second callback-after-the-farewell to say something profound.  (We love each other SO MUCH, but alas! We can never be together! And now, I will slowly sink into the sea under this iceberg, never, ever letting go!) I mean . . . I'm as soppy as the next person, but sheesh! Those two fights between Luke and June in 5.08 are *actual* ways that grownups who love each other can communicate (or fail to communicate). June and Nick's "This is a fine mess" flirty banter is not. (I also think it's hilarious that somehow Nick can appear on cue in a matter of hours when it's a nine-hour drive between Toronto and Boston and air space is--ahem!--not super friendly right now!)

And yeah, not a great episode. Not great writing, not great directing (sorry, Brad!). I don't have a lot of hope for the season finale, because it's going to have to cover a lot of stuff (Janine, June's assassination attempt, Lawrence and Naomi's marriage, Serena's escape, whatever's about to go down between Nick and Lawrence) in a very short amount of time. I don't think it's likely to do any of those narratives justice.

Edited November 3, 2022 by crashdown

[aghst]

I don't buy that the American govt. in exile nor Gilead have advanced military equipment.  Like that situation room where they have a satellite view of the wife school.

If they could see the wife school in real time, why wouldn't they see the anti-aircraft?  Also if a plane is shot down. most military jets can eject the pilots.

In any event, if they'd been successful, there would be no reason for June to ever bother with Gilead again.  They have another season of the show so we know that wasn't going to happen.  My guess, is the way McKenzie talked, if they can't lure June to New Bethlehem, Gilead will just go in and abduct her to get her back into Gilead for the final season.

Because all of a sudden, you have these anti-American protesters as well as tons of Gilead sympathizers in Canada.  I guess they're going to use them somehow to get June back into Gilead.

Even in this country, the most anti-immigrant people don't go and confront people like that.  They might do it at the border but they don't go into communities where these people live and work.

Or even target them with guns as this episode depicted.

This show keeps getting more ridiculous.  The way they get June back is probably going to be more absurd.

[circumvent]

3 hours ago, aghst said:

Or even target them with guns as this episode depicted.

 am still convinced that June was the target, orders from Gilead to take her down

I thought a little more about Hannah writing her name. That's not something that would happen. She was taken when she was about 5. Maybe she was already reading and writing then, I was at that age. But then she was not allowed written language anymore. The brain needs constant exercise to keep functioning, so she would have to be practicing writing for that function of the brain to be able to stay active. More realistically, would be having her saying her name to maybe another girl, to show us she remembers.

I also think that the rushed Hannah can write plot is to get her out of that school, maybe

Spoiler

get her into Aunt School, like in The Testaments, where she can read and write and the next show can be more loyal to the book.

[revbfc]

The more I think about this episode, the more questions I have.  I’m willing to handwave the US military having the dough to stage operations because Alaska has hella oil.  What I’m not willing to accept:

-Gilead doesn’t need an Air Force Academy?  In our world it’s already the one most infected with Christian radicals, why they would give it to a school for wives is weird.

-How do you have any sort of advanced schooling without reading?  As a viewer, I’d like to see this.

-We’ve seen that Chicago is a war zone, California is supposedly on the brink of being back in US hands (or at least Gilead is not in control), and Gilead is fighting on all these fronts…how?  I’m not even touching on Gilead’s war on their population.  How is Gilead not overextended?  We still know nothing about their economy despite its architect being a main character for four seasons. 

-The USAFA is about 800 miles from the Canadian border.  An incursion like that would be problematic even with a military at full strength.  What was their real goal?  

I have so many more problems, but I’ll leave it at that for now.

I want to love this show, but they keep dropping the ball, and tease plot development while never delivering.

[Fake Jan Brady]

Poor handsome Commander Elijah Vance; never show a picture of your child before going on a dangerous mission. That's as sure of a way of dooming yourself as mentioning this is your last job before retirement from the police force.

I realise the show seems to have forgotten about Janine and Esther but I haven't; hope they get a scene or two next week.

[greekmom]

56 minutes ago, revbfc said:

-We’ve seen that Chicago is a war zone, California is supposedly on the brink of being back in US hands (or at least Gilead is not in control), and Gilead is fighting on all these fronts…how?  I’m not even touching on Gilead’s war on their population.  How is Gilead not overextended?  We still know nothing about their economy despite its architect being a main character for four seasons. 

I could see most American refugees coming to Canada cause well I live here and it's a great country but besides Alaska and Hawaii, there has to be other states that just became a republic and are not either Gilead or US.  Plus what happened to American Samoa, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico, and the U.S. Virgin Islands?  I would assume that Gilead wasn't interested in any of them and they should have been elevated to "States" status. Why didn't any Americans move there after coming to Canada to at least stay in US territory?  Plus we have to assume like most people in the north of the US fleeing to Canada, there has to be an equal population of southern Americans fleeing to Mexico or somewhere in South America.  That's why the backlash doesn't make sense to me. Yes there would be a significant number of Americans here but nothing to really tax the system.  Especially if they were spread among the provinces which most of the time refugees are required to go to different provinces/cities depending on the agreement of their refugee status. 

The only thing I do remember of Gilead economy is that they are poor. 

Edited November 3, 2022 by greekmom

[Baltimore Betty]

39 minutes ago, greekmom said:

The only thing I do remember of Gilead economy is that they are poor. 

They are poor so how do they have the military jets, tanks, hi tech military intelligence and such that keeps them as a force to be reckoned with? Are they getting help from Iran, it would make sense since they share a lot of the same views about women and their hierarchy in government and punishments for breaking laws...hmmmm, something to think about.

If Gilead is a communist state we all know communism does not work as a long term goal, there is no money in it and the people will rebel.

Anyone else catch the last name of one of the fighter pilots, Umansky, I think there might be a writer on this show that likes Real Housewives of Beverly Hills!

[circumvent]

56 minutes ago, Baltimore Betty said:

If Gilead is a communist state we all know communism does not work as a long term goal, there is no money in it and the people will rebel.

As an aside, communism was never really implemented as designed. Stalin declared they were done and because he was an authoritarian, the whole thing became oppressive, the idea got lost in power hungry and maintenance of a position that was based on conflict with the other power. The poverty and lack of goods were due to political conflicts that shut them down to participating in the world economy, while draining the resources to the war industry, a little like capitalism is doing in the biggest capitalist country in the world right now.

Now, Gilead is not communist in the sense of the ideology. It is primarily a controlling religious society, not a society based in manufacturing and growing towards equality, like the ideal of communism (emphasis of ideal). Originally, they (Gilead) were also shunned from the rest of the world, something that got lost in the show. If a country is cut off, they need some educational strength, or something to bargain with, they need allies. Gilead should have none. The show made Gilead season two and beyond a superpower in the world, contradicting a lot of the stuff that we sow in the first season, which was closer to the book 

[aghst]

That’s the other thing, China, Russia and North Korea all congratulated Gilead for shooting down the jets.

Guess those are rogue nations while the rest of the world shun Gilead.

But there must be some other authoritarian nations which gravitate towards what Gilead is doing.

Mckenzie seemed proud that these nations were friendly while Lawrence cast shade at being associated with them.

Edited November 3, 2022 by aghst

[circumvent]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

That’s the other thing, China, Russia and North Korea all congratulated Gilead for shooting down the jets.

Guess those are rogue nations while the rest of the world shun Gilead.

But there must be some other authoritarian nations which gravitate towards what Gilead is doing.

Mckenzie seemed proud that these nations were friendly while Lawrence cast shade at being associated with them.

Yeah, I think that was misplaced. Those are sentiments related to what happens in real life (which is already part western propaganda) while in a show based on that book, even nations that are also authoritarian would not manifest themselves as supporters. Silence, maybe, but not cheers. Gilead was such an anomaly, so repressive and backwards, they were alone in history. Countries like China and North Korea cannot afford to lose female workers based on religious views - that's part of communism (or "state-run capitalism").  No way they would get involved

It is the same thing with the Canadians protesting Americans in Canada. The premise was that they would be freeing souls and sheltering them, not being angry at refugees. Besides, it is silly since Canada, right now, is in need of more workers and have a fully functional immigration system in place.

[chaifan]

It didn't even occur to me until mentioned above, that we only have one more episode this season.  Yeah, they have a lot to pack in there.

Hannah - it would have made more sense if her drawing was really an incorporation of her name into a pattern.  (Pretty easy to do with Hannah.)  That I could buy - that all this time she hasn't been allowed to write, she's secretly been putting her name into drawings, doodles, etc. 

Poor Mrs. Putnam, first thinking that she's going to be sent to the colonies, then being offered marriage to the man that had her husband executed.  oof.  But I kept thinking, oh, wouldn't that just frost Serena!  Imagine her attending the Putnam/Lawrence wedding, after Lawrence turned her down for the same type of arrangement. 

Serena - love her or hate her, you have to admit, YS acts the hell out of that role!  She's seriously amazing, I think the best of the cast.  Mr. Wheeler is an odd duck.  His "ok, I'm buttered up, what do you want" attitude and approach to Serena is great.  Serena's escape was pretty predictable, and also not at all believable, as the Center would have had security at every door.  Not necessarily to keep people in, but they've been attacked in the past, and there's no way there wouldn't be a guard out back for an event like that.   If she doesn't head straight for Tuello, I'd be shocked. 

I find it interesting that Mrs. Wheeler was not just not wearing Wife Teal in the house, but also wearing pants.  I can see why they don't wear Wife Teal in public, at the Center, as it would look just a little cultish, but the home fashions surprise me a bit. 

Nick & June.  ugh.  I've never been a fan of Nick.  I find him utterly boring.  So now, Lawrence is a burned bridge, Nick is out, the US isn't going to try again.  What are June's choices for getting Hannah out? 

Next season will be the last, right?  So that means it will be a Hannah-rescue/escape-plot heavy season.  Which means June going back to Gilead.  That ranks an unenthusiastic woo from me.  woo. 

[aghst]

Naomi may not want to sleep with Lawrence but that goofy, Alfred E. Neuman ears Spiros is preferable?

Also I thought Lawrence wasn't interested in sex, at least when June was his Handmaid.

Seems like the marriage would be one of convenience, for a top commander to have a wife and child.  But he himself doesn't believe in the Ceremony.

[Boothbay]

As a Boston native I chuckled when Mrs. Putnam inquired about "downsizing to a condo in Brookline or Back Bay".  Me too sister! 😂

[lavenderblue]

I was really kinda hoping the last scene would be Serena turning up at Tuello's doorstep, ready to make that deal, given his lines earlier in the episode about "Nick would be such a major get for us! A COMMANDER!" and the episode title. Sadly (for me) we instead got.....whatever that maudlin vigil and shooting was instead. I do wonder what Mr. Wheeler's deal is between both his nonchalance in the office scene and his "I think that's up to Noah! *chuckle*"  about Serena nursing while Mrs. Wheeler lost it over the lack of a bottle. Are we just seeing what happens when the wife leads a Gilead-leaning household or is there something more to him? 

I've also felt a contrast between Serena-as-Mrs.-Waterford and Mrs. Wheeler, and it's that while I think there's probably reason to wonder what sort of a mom Serena will make, I always believed that she did genuinely want a child. She went about it in a horrible way, but I believed her desperation and believed that she enjoyed kids. Mrs. Wheeler really seems to disdain Noah, seeing a baby as a status symbol and maybe an "heir," and that adds another layer of why he needed to be freed from that house. It's too easy to imagine something terrible happening to him through her negligence or potential violence.

Of course the mission was doomed, and of course such an OTT mission was embarked upon basically just to save Hannah. Sure, they threw in a reference to the other girls' parents, but I have little doubt that in the context of this show, they'd have gone in exclusively to save her while saying "sorry girls, have fun at tomorrow's gardening class!" Though it did make me wonder what they even knew of the other girls. How many plausibly would have had one or two birth parents in Canada or what remains of America? Many likely had mothers working as handmaids or laboring in the colonies, at best, and how many fathers made it out a la Luke rather than being executed years before? 

Lawrence's non-proposal to Naomi was a highlight for me and I don't even care that much about either character. The awkwardness was amazing, though. And "We're not your realtors."

[iMonrey]

Quote

That’s the other thing, China, Russia and North Korea all congratulated Gilead for shooting down the jets.

I thought that line was a little too on the nose. circumvent's post above elaborates why.

Quote

(But it's still totally easy for Nick and June to meet up wherever the hell they're meeting - Gilead? Canada? No Man's Land?)

I want to know how this is arranged too. Is Tuello calling Nick and asking him to drive up to Canada and meet with June? Can you just pick up the phone in Canada and call someone in Gilead? Or does Nick have some special phone that Tuello gave him? And how is Nick able to slip away for these clandestine meetings in Canada all the time without anyone noticing? It seems like his schedule is pretty micro managed and rigid and someone would notice he keeps disappearing for hours on end without explanation.

The show really plays fast and loose with how hard or easy to get back and forth between Gilead and Canada. It's really easy when the writers don't want to bother with the particulars but it's really hard when it creates the right amount of suspense. It reads to me as lazy writing.

[chaifan]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

Seems like the marriage would be one of convenience, for a top commander to have a wife and child.  But he himself doesn't believe in the Ceremony.

My own explanation is, if he has Mrs. Putnam as a wife, she brings along one child, and will get Esther's child when he/she is born.  That would allow Lawrence to say, hey, I've got 2 kids already, I'm (however old he is), and I'm good.  Give that handmaid to someone else, a younger couple without kids.  Then he and Naomi can live separate lives under one roof (or she has her condo in Brookline), and everyone leaves him alone.

If it weren't for the fact that Lawrence had Mr. Putnam killed, this would be a sweet arrangement for Mrs. Putnam. 

Edited November 3, 2022 by chaifan

[kitkat343]

8 hours ago, revbfc said:

-How do you have any sort of advanced schooling without reading?  As a viewer, I’d like to see this.

If you google NY times and Hasidic schools, they recently did an expose of the Hasidic schools in which the schools are putting so much emphasis on learning the Torah, that students are graduating from the schools nearly functionally illiterate in English and unable to compute basic mathematical equations.

 The potential wives are only about 13, so "advanced schooling" is for children who here in the US would be middle school aged, and for the Wives it would be training for running a household.   I would imagine there would be a lot of emphasis on memorizing the Old Testament, especially passages on how wives must obey their husbands.  Plus gardening, painting, and drawing classes to give the Wives something to do all day while the Marthas cook, clean, and raise the children.  In the Testaments, Aunt Lydia discussed her concern that their "sex education" program  at Wives School which was intended to make sex sound terrifying and awful to scare girls into remaining virgins prior to marriage and  later to not cheat on their husbands might be terrifying girls into not wanting to get married, and there were some girls who attempted suicide when they were engaged to men old enough to be their fathers.  

Edited November 3, 2022 by kitkat343

[Quickbeam]

“And who doesn’t love Corinthians! Especially first Corinthians!” Made me laugh out loud. I love the Lawrence character who is a cautionary tale about when bright people get in bed with religious zealots. Whitford directed this episode. 

[madpsych78]

I don't know if this was the actress's real pencil grasp or what, but I felt like the way Hannah held her pencil was not the most efficient grasp, and the way she wrote her name seemed to be consistent with when she would have been five or six. I can buy her remembering that, but her growth was stunted otherwise. Thus, I found what Hannah did/was able to do believable.

[revbfc]

24 minutes ago, Quickbeam said:

“And who doesn’t love Corinthians! Especially first Corinthians!” Made me laugh out loud. I love the Lawrence character who is a cautionary tale about when bright people get in bed with religious zealots. Whitford directed this episode. 

And we all know what’s better than First Corinthians, don’t we?

Two Corinthians.

gotta have two.

[circumvent]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

The show really plays fast and loose with how hard or easy to get back and forth between Gilead and Canada. It's really easy when the writers don't want to bother with the particulars but it's really hard when it creates the right amount of suspense. It reads to me as lazy writing.

Or shove it down our throats because it needs to serve whatever main plot is playing in the episode. People live and bowl in No Man's Land at will, but when it comes to the Rockies, there is basically no border. 

Nick going back and forth is not even clandestine anymore. Lawrence calling June is like a family weekly long distance call. 

[aghst]

I gather most of what happens after season 3 or so is well beyond the events of the book?

[chocolatine]

54 minutes ago, aghst said:

I gather most of what happens after season 3 or so is well beyond the events of the book?

Most of what happens after season 1.