S05.E09: Couple 31

[formerlyfreedom]

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The Princess of Wales contends with the repercussions of her statements. The Queen asks the Prime Minister for his help in a delicate family matter.

Dropping on Wednesday, November 9, 2022.

[Spartan Girl]

For one brief shining moment, I thought Charles was finally going to own up to his part in the whole mess. But no, it wound up being the same old “my parents forced me into the marriage, so nothing’s my fault” bullshit.

What exactly stopped him from following in Uncle Nazi’s footsteps and abdicating so he could marry Camilla when he had the chance? And why didn’t Camilla pick him instead of marrying Andrew? The answer is the same: Charles wanted to be king, and Camilla couldn’t let go of Andrew. Dickie and the Queen Mum might have meddled, but you can’t play the victim forever.

That last shot to Diana was so uncalled for. It wasn’t being cruel to be kind, it was just plain cruel. 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Spartan Girl

[Ellaria]

This episode was sad and tiresome…and I think it was intended to be. That final scene between the two of them was well executed. It captured the pleasant superficialities that first brought them to together and ended with hurt and bitterness. So sad.

[secnarf]

How did the Prime Minister end up brokering the terms of the Wales’ divorce? I have a hard time believing that he acted as a go-between IRL. 

[peridot]

I couldn't believe that the Queen asked the Prime Minister to be the mediator.  Didn't he have enough on his plate?!

I was surprised to hear that Diana's boyfriend broke up with her.  I guess he didn't want the attention from the press.  During her therapy session, it seemed that Diana was shocked by the blowback.  I'm not sure why she thought she would only get positive attention from the interview. 

I really got tired of Charles saying she was trying to destroy his life.  I was even tired of Camilla with those sarcastic remarks about Diana (such as when the 35m was mentioned).  They are so self-centered, that they can't even try to empathize with the young woman who's life they impacted.  Diana was a young virgin who was brought into a mess.  She made a big inflammatory statement at the end, even I was feeling that.

I liked the framing of the divorce process by bringing in those other couples.  The second couple really got to me - the husband must have been brought up in poverty and was so afraid of not having money that he couldn't imagine cutting back.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Oh Boo boo hoo, poor poor  Camilla. Like she’s some fucking victim in all this.

Shut up, Charles.

[Marley]

Not sure what Diana expected after the interview.

They all just needed to move on with their lives.

[Brn2bwild]

Anyone else annoyed that Charles and Diana kept saying "our son" like they had only one son?

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, peridot said:

I was surprised to hear that Diana's boyfriend broke up with her.  I guess he didn't want the attention from the press.  During her therapy session, it seemed that Diana was shocked by the blowback.  I'm not sure why she thought she would only get positive attention from the interview.

Diana had the bad luck that while she is adored by millions, no man with any sense would give his privacy for her. I am not sure if that workalcholic doctor would have been able to give her whole-time attention and adulation she craved for. 

Regarding the interview, Diana must have lived in the fantasy world if she believed that the attack on the monarchy (which she did by suspecting Charles's suitability as King) wouldn't cause her grave consequences. 

[Snazzy Daisy]

Ugh. I cannot stand Camilla and her pettiness!

Quote

"Well, one doesn't want to be all 'poor me' about it but people have not been kind. I think they forget, loving the Prince of Wales has cost me everything."

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"I'm literally under siege."

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"I cannot watch the buggers muddle these advisors he's hired to help him make of it most of the time. Particularly around the divorce."

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"Oh, Diana wouldn't be clamped, would she? One bat of the eyelids, one flash of the smile, and they would all just melt away."

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Seriously, like I said in my post, Charles and Camilla had more agency in the situation than they want to admit. Camilla told Charles to bring her to Balmoral and Charles knew godamn well what would happen if the family was impressed by her.

Let's not forget that it was Diana who made the first move that made Charles interested in her. Her empathy was sincere, but in Balmoral she pretended to love the country life.

Of course Charles was older and had more responsibility, but Diana wanted to marry him and accepted his proposal without demanding time to think.

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

Let's not forget that it was Diana who made the first move that made Charles interested in her. Her empathy was sincere, but in Balmoral she pretended to love the country life.

Of course Charles was older and had more responsibility, but Diana wanted to marry him and accepted his proposal without demanding time to think.

She was 19. 19.

Perhaps a slightly older woman with a more functional family that wasn’t so enthusiastic to get in with the royals might have thought it through more, but that wasn’t the case here. Plus, he was the freaking prince of Wales, and that would be enough to turn anyone’s head. It’s not like she was the only person that rushed into marriage because she was in love (or thought she was).

[dubbel zout]

I have a blazer very similar to the one Diana was wearing in her therapy session. That was a fun surprise.

LOL that the queen compares what Major did in Northern Ireland to mediating between Charles and Diana. They aren't quite the same thing, ma'am!

19 hours ago, peridot said:

I liked the framing of the divorce process by bringing in those other couples. 

Same. It showed that underneath the fame, privilege, and wealth, Charles and Diana were very similar to any other divorcing couple.

[shipmate]

Just Charles bite his lip a lot in real life? I noticed the actor keeps doing that and I don’t know if it’s his own personal quirk or an acting choice based on Charles’ habit.

[paramitch]

I found the "When Harry Met Sally" divorcing couple vignettes kind of distracting here. They were beautifully acted, but they felt sort of extraneous to me. It's a huge amount of wasted screen time just for the punchline of "Another marriage has ended -- this time it's the marriage of the Prince and Princess of Wales."

I also dislike that in almost every case in those vignettes, the woman was subtly shown to be the one out of love or leaving, not the man.

I didn't mind the depiction of Camilla here and based on many accounts, it seems to have been fairly accurate. I don't think she was doing much self-pitying -- she seems to have been willing to accept the blame of her situation as the other woman. So her comments seemed pretty mild to me here. And I love Olivia Williams's portrayal of Camilla in this. She comes across as incredibly warm, and (love or hate the real Camilla) that does seem to be something present in the real Camilla as well.

Meanwhile, I thought the final scene between Charles and Diana was incredibly well written and acted -- and very sad to watch -- but also,  it made me kind of angry.

This is where this show gets really uncomfortable for me (as with certain scenes between Elizabeth/Philip from this or past seasons, as with scenes between Charles/Elizabeth, Elizabeth/Margaret, etc etc). They are simply writing exercises in which Peter Morgan imagines what he thinks each person would say, revealing his own personal biases in the process.

And yeah, that's the show. And I think if the writing in the final scene had been more balanced, I'd be okay with it. But it feels like Morgan is once again staging an event in which it looks balanced on both sides, but his sympathies are yet again with the man (Charles). So Morgan putting words in their mouths -- for instance, making Diana seem dim-witted or petty here (and she cannot defend herself) is frustrating for me. At that breakfast table, I think Diana would have been wittier, sharper, but also kinder.

I just think Morgan doesn't really understand Diana, and this episode really demonstrates that (as did the one where she flirted horridly with the heart doctor by saying she wished she had been in a restrictive Pakistani marriage or some such nonsense, I mean, OMG it was so bad).

Diana was smart, vivacious, dazzlingly charismatic, very empathetic, and certainly admittedly social and romantic, as well. She was a complicated person, but Morgan seems repeatedly this season to distill her increasingly down to "petty, naïve, and needy." And it's extra-frustrating for me because he has done a good job with Charles, Camilla, Philip, etc., this season and in showing their own needs and feelings of loneliness.

I just think he never figured Diana out, and it shows, especially in this episode. 
 

Edited November 14, 2022 by paramitch
Never mind, nothing to see here, thought I had included a spoiler but I didn't

[poeticlicensed]

I think Charles and Camilla are getting a very generous portrayal. 

[Spartan Girl]

“I never wanted all this.” “Loving the Prince of Wales has cost me everything.”

Nice try, Camilla. But we all remember how things went down in season 3 and 4. You wanted to have your cake and eat it too.

[dubbel zout]

At the time, I can see Camilla feeling this way, as it's not as if she and Charles could immediately go out and get married. And the way she was hounded by the press was terrible. Supposedly there was a photographer who planted himself (heh; didn't mean to make that pun) in her garden so he could get pictures of her. He was trespassing and there wasn't much she could do about it.

[Chai]

19 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

“I never wanted all this.” “Loving the Prince of Wales has cost me everything.”

Nice try, Camilla. But we all remember how things went down in season 3 and 4. You wanted to have your cake and eat it too.

I felt bad for her kids. She was having fun playing cards with them and got up and left without a backward glance as soon as she heard Charles was on the phone.

[Spartan Girl]

Honestly, closing the episode with the real footage of the wedding left me feeling cold. Maybe because last season didn’t even bother showing it except for the montage of everyone getting dressed and ready. It worked for that season because it had the tone of impending doom, yet they finally show the footage in the divorce episode and expect us to feel sad that the “fairy tale” ended?

It fell as flat as Charles’ last minute sadness that he finally got out of a marriage he spent most of the time complaining about. It might have packed more of a punch if the show had actually given us more of the good moments between Charles and Diana. Other than their meet-cute, all their scenes together were awkward and formal at best and bitter and toxic at worst. Maybe this episode would have worked if they stuck with Charles having his jerkass realization and ending the episode on a bittersweet yet amicable parting, but that’s not what we got.

[pasdetrois]

They portrayed Dr. Khan as a kind of nobody. I think it was Vanity Fair that covered the Dr. Khan romance when it happened - if I recall correctly, he was very dashing, sophisticated, from a wealthy family, and he did indeed dump Diana. She kind of stalked him for a while.

[truthful]

Quite a sad episode, not because of the divorce, because of all those wasted years for the two of them.

[Straycat80]

Very sad episode. And that ending was not necessary. And when they say ‘our son’, it’s like they are negating Harry, I wonder if they did that on purpose? 

[nora1992]

On 11/11/2022 at 10:20 PM, peridot said:

I liked the framing of the divorce process by bringing in those other couples.  The second couple really got to me - the husband must have been brought up in poverty and was so afraid of not having money that he couldn't imagine cutting back.

That husband could never compete with an idolized father.  If the wife’s father really wanted to help, why not send money, or help the husband find a different job?  Instead, he’s getting the daughter back and usurp the father in the life of the kids.  I really felt for that man.

[Roseanna]

On 11/14/2022 at 7:19 PM, nora1992 said:

That husband could never compete with an idolized father.  If the wife’s father really wanted to help, why not send money, or help the husband find a different job?  Instead, he’s getting the daughter back and usurp the father in the life of the kids.  I really felt for that man.

Maybe returning to the childhood home was also a practical decision, because the wife had no job and/or no moeny to rent an apartment?

While I first thought that comparing with other couples was a good idea, I now realize that there are a big difference: money. If an ordinary woman has kids, divorce often means a smaller home and lower standard of living.

On 11/13/2022 at 12:04 PM, Spartan Girl said:

“I never wanted all this.” “Loving the Prince of Wales has cost me everything.”

Nice try, Camilla. But we all remember how things went down in season 3 and 4. You wanted to have your cake and eat it too.

Well, she didn't want to marry Charles and to become a royal in S3. And when Charles spoke about divorce, she was realistic enough to say that it wouldbn't succeed and she would be hated. She would have continued her life as it was if the ungentlemanly Charles would have thrown her to the volwes in his interview which made her constantly unfaithful and so far compliant husband to sue for divorce.

Whatever one thinks about her morality, that woman has guts. Instead of wallowing in self-pity, she sees what her her options are now and is ready to ask for help in order to reach her goal, however far it now seems.

[Spartan Girl]

19 hours ago, nora1992 said:

That husband could never compete with an idolized father.  If the wife’s father really wanted to help, why not send money, or help the husband find a different job?  Instead, he’s getting the daughter back and usurp the father in the life of the kids.  I really felt for that man.

Oh yeah, I felt for the guy too. I hate saying this, but that wife came off as too whiny to be sympathetic. He works too much, fine, but not everybody can be like your precious father. I hope he at least gets to visit the kids.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

Whatever one thinks about her morality, that woman has guts. Instead of wallowing in self-pity, she sees what her her options are now and is ready to ask for help in order to reach her goal, however far it now seems.

I disagree. See below:

On 11/13/2022 at 1:04 PM, Spartan Girl said:

“I never wanted all this.” “Loving the Prince of Wales has cost me everything.”

is the definition of whining. No sympathy for her or Charles whatsofuckingever.

[Spartan Girl]

19 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I disagree. See below:

is the definition of whining. No sympathy for her or Charles whatsofuckingever.

As the saying goes, “Well, well, well, if it isn’t the consequences of my actions.”

Did they really think they could just go on being each other’s side pieces forever without getting caught? Especially with the media growing into what it is today?

[Roseanna]

On 11/15/2022 at 4:00 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Did they really think they could just go on being each other’s side pieces forever without getting caught? Especially with the media growing into what it is today?

The crux of the matter wasn't being caught, but Charles's public confession. Only that made Andrew Parker Bowles sue for divorce.

Evidently Camilla really loved Charles because she forgave him for offering her for himself. Or maybe she just thought that being a lonely middle-aged divorced woman with not so good means was worse.

It always annoys me when Charles says that his marriage was made by his parents as if he had no choice at all. But now I admit that many people just act what is expected from them (a doctor's son becomes a doctor, a worker's son becomes a worker and formerly girls just got married and got children). Charles originally did what he was taught to be his duty, unlike the duke of Windsor (I think Morgan made a wrong comparision). 

Evidently marrying, and marrying well, was what Diana as an Earls daughter was raised to do, not to study and have a career although it was  already 80ies. I hope her background and how her parents' divorce influenced on her could have dealt at least in one episode.

About their last conversation: it's interesting that what annoyed Charles in Diana's interview wasn't "three people in marriage" but her claim that he wasn't suited to king. Her claim that she didn't mean it sounded hollow because that's how the audience understood it and she would have been a fool not anticipate it.

Instead, for Diana the sorest part was still Camilla. I wish she could have realized even in the end that you can't force the other to love you and the harder you demand to be loved, the surer you drive the other away.

Charles's phrase "there was love there" was interesting, although Diana didn't believe him, because there are many kinds of love. 

[Lady Whistleup]

I was so irritated by Charles' convo with John Major. It simply rung very false. Would PM Major have the time to counsel Charles about the divorce settlement? I really don't think so. This is more like Peter Morgan fanfic than an organic drama. The show makes it seem like John Major was almost a divorce lawyer.

[PeterPirate]

Jonny Lee Miller sounds like Joaquin Phoenix playing Commodus in Gladiator. 

[ruby24]

I don't understand how he can say there was "love there" and then immediately say he married her because he had no choice. When did this "love" exist, then?

[Salacious Kitty]

6 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

I don't understand how he can say there was "love there" and then immediately say he married her because he had no choice. When did this "love" exist, then?

There WAS love there. From Diana. I think Chaz was playing around a bit there. 

[Roseanna]

55 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

I don't understand how he can say there was "love there" and then immediately say he married her because he had no choice. When did this "love" exist, then?

Just as Charles famously said, "whatever love means", thete are many kinds of love. Although he clearly was never in love with Diana, that doesn't exclude that he didn't love her in some another way, at least as a mother of his children.

Even in the series there moments during the Australian journey when there were at least a possibility of love (honest conversation, sexuality, a joy of parenting William, team work). Unfortuntately, Morgan showed nothing about the beginning of their marriage.

47 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

There WAS love there. From Diana. I think Chaz was playing around a bit there. 

Unfortunately, Diana's possessive and demanding love was a part of problem. Jealous scenes and suicide threats just isn't the way to make your husband to love you. 

On the other, Diana needed a husband who would to be to her what Camilla was to Charles - always there to love, admire and support her.

[truthful]

1 hour ago, ruby24 said:

I don't understand how he can say there was "love there" and then immediately say he married her because he had no choice. When did this "love" exist, then?

He probably meant the love he has for himself.

[sistermagpie]

On 11/16/2022 at 3:37 AM, Roseanna said:

It always annoys me when Charles says that his marriage was made by his parents as if he had no choice at all. But now I admit that many people just act what is expected from them (a doctor's son becomes a doctor, a worker's son becomes a worker and formerly girls just got married and got children). Charles originally did what he was taught to be his duty, unlike the duke of Windsor (I think Morgan made a wrong comparision). 

That's what I remember in the reaction at the time to that interview. The idea of a middle-aged man blaming his Dad for forcing him to marry a still-teenager when he was in his late 30s just made him sound pathetic and whiny. Even here he tried to do the "we were young" thing and Diana was sure right to correct him that he was not young by any definition of the word when they met.

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

That's what I remember in the reaction at the time to that interview. The idea of a middle-aged man blaming his Dad for forcing him to marry a still-teenager when he was in his late 30s just made him sound pathetic and whiny.

Clarles seems always to forget that *he* had invited Diana to Balmoral which in practice meant to be examined and accepted or rejected by the Queen.

More in the history section.

[LadyIrony]

On 11/12/2022 at 10:39 AM, Spartan Girl said:

For one brief shining moment, I thought Charles was finally going to own up to his part in the whole mess. But no, it wound up being the same old “my parents forced me into the marriage, so nothing’s my fault” bullshit.

What exactly stopped him from following in Uncle Nazi’s footsteps and abdicating so he could marry Camilla when he had the chance? And why didn’t Camilla pick him instead of marrying Andrew? The answer is the same: Charles wanted to be king, and Camilla couldn’t let go of Andrew. Dickie and the Queen Mum might have meddled, but you can’t play the victim forever.

That last shot to Diana was so uncalled for. It wasn’t being cruel to be kind, it was just plain cruel. 

I am also going to take a guess and say Camilla was never all that attracted to Charles. At least in the early days. It seemed to be because of Charles' persistence that over time she started to develop feelings for him. 

If Diana was really the way she was than she comes off as a horny stalker type. She seems to get all giddy over just about anyone. 

[jeansheridan]

On 11/12/2022 at 4:57 PM, dubbel zout said:

LOL that the queen compares what Major did in Northern Ireland to mediating between Charles and Diana. They aren't quite the same thing, ma'am!

But it was a nice moment of levity in a heavy episode. Is John Major still admired for his work in Northern Ireland?

I don't care if it was fantasy I like seeing master negotiator Jonny Lee Miller handling those two egos.

I have some sympathy for Camilla. She knew she didn't want the hassle of a public life but love isn't rational (or necessarily moral). She must really love him to destroy her life and face the heat. Right or wrong, she stuck it out. Getting a PR man was smart. 

[ZeeEnnui]

On 11/13/2022 at 9:51 AM, poeticlicensed said:

I think Charles and Camilla are getting a very generous portrayal. 

Seriously. I feel like Peter Morgan is polishing Charles' crown jewels in the hopes of receiving a knighthood. 

Whinge more, Chuck and Cam [eye roll]

[jeansheridan]

On 11/15/2022 at 11:46 PM, Roseanna said:

Charles's phrase "there was love there" was interesting, although Diana didn't believe him, because there are many kinds of love. 

She did give him two beautiful children. I have no doubt he loved her for that. 

Their fight was played well. Starting off tense, relaxing, then boom. Honestly divorce was their best option. $35 million seems inexpensive to end something with a little grace.

[andromeda331]

On 11/14/2022 at 7:10 AM, Spartan Girl said:

Honestly, closing the episode with the real footage of the wedding left me feeling cold. Maybe because last season didn’t even bother showing it except for the montage of everyone getting dressed and ready. It worked for that season because it had the tone of impending doom, yet they finally show the footage in the divorce episode and expect us to feel sad that the “fairy tale” ended?

It fell as flat as Charles’ last minute sadness that he finally got out of a marriage he spent most of the time complaining about. It might have packed more of a punch if the show had actually given us more of the good moments between Charles and Diana. Other than their meet-cute, all their scenes together were awkward and formal at best and bitter and toxic at worst. Maybe this episode would have worked if they stuck with Charles having his jerkass realization and ending the episode on a bittersweet yet amicable parting, but that’s not what we got.

That's how I felt too. I wanted to like those scenes and if happened it IRL that's great. But in the show Charles has been horrible to Diana the entirety of their marriage except for the brief moment in Australia. I can't buy that he suddenly feels sad. He'd be out cheering or celebrating with Camilla. Maybe even doing cartwheels. I really wish they had given us a few happy moments between them. That would have been nice. It's the same with Diana telling him she married for love. It's hard to buy she loved Charles at all given how he treated her throughout their marriage and never ditched his mistress.  

On 11/15/2022 at 3:00 PM, Spartan Girl said:

As the saying goes, “Well, well, well, if it isn’t the consequences of my actions.”

Did they really think they could just go on being each other’s side pieces forever without getting caught? Especially with the media growing into what it is today?

I was wondering that too. Did they really think their would be no consequences? Even if Charles had married someone other then Diana I doubt the public would be all that thrilled when it came out. So many people already knew it was only a matter of time before it got out. 

[jeansheridan]

4 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I can't buy that he suddenly feels sad.

It's a public failure. For that alone he might feel regret and sadness. He had one job...keep the family line going. And maybe that is the problem. Based on the show when Elizabeth was heir, her job was to be mentored by her dad but also to raise her kids and do tours because her father was ill. She actually had real work to do. Charles seemingly did not. Or she was fit enough she didn't require a fill-in. It sounds like he started his Trust well before meeting Diana and that seems like it could have been a good job. 

He and Diana were at such different points in their life when they met. It was almost a generational difference because he was raised in such a weird way. I do love the hints that he is a bit holistic and new agey regarding medicine and eating organic. 

[GiuliettaMasina]

On 11/12/2022 at 5:51 PM, Spartan Girl said:

She was 19. 19.

Perhaps a slightly older woman with a more functional family that wasn’t so enthusiastic to get in with the royals might have thought it through more, but that wasn’t the case here. Plus, he was the freaking prince of Wales, and that would be enough to turn anyone’s head. It’s not like she was the only person that rushed into marriage because she was in love (or thought she was).

This is the crux of why, despite all her subsequent bad behavior (and there was plenty), I still side more with Diana. Plenty of teenagers pretend to be more interested in their crushes' interests than they actually are. That's not manipulation, that's being immature, and it comes along with the territory when you are an actual child. And, yes, I absolutely consider a 19-year-old a child; the law's got to draw a line somewhere, but that doesn't change brain chemistry and physiological development. If the royal family was looking for someone with a mature understanding of how marriage can be a partnership in ways other than romantic, they should've found an adult.

[Hanya2]

Well. they wanted a virgin, so that precludes most women older than 19. 

The royal family does a monstrous job with modern women entering their family.  Even though Diana was a fairly traditional young woman.

[sistermagpie]

42 minutes ago, Hanya2 said:

Well. they wanted a virgin, so that precludes most women older than 19. 

The royal family does a monstrous job with modern women entering their family.  Even though Diana was a fairly traditional young woman.

It seems like this gets put out there as if it's almost an ancient geis they fear to break, but it's hard to believe that in 1981 Charles couldn't have married an adult who just didn't have any previous marriages or actually lived with someone or had too bad of a reputation and everyone just agrees to a polite fiction. We've seen they can move with the times when it's too hard to play Victorian Times.

Edited November 25, 2022 by sistermagpie

[GaT]

55 minutes ago, Hanya2 said:

The royal family does a monstrous job with modern women entering their family.  Even though Diana was a fairly traditional young woman.

Diana was the first "modern woman" who became part of the BRF, the last royal wedding before Charles & Diana was Margaret & Antony Armstrong-Jones in 1960, & the last time before that was when King George VI  married Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon in 1923, which was the previous time a woman was brought into the family. They didn't have the internet yet, but the media was completely different than what they knew, & they apparently never understood that the world changes & what worked in 1923 wasn't going to work in 1981.

[Starlight925]

I'm the same age as Diana, and I remember my mother going crazy over the Royal Wedding.  I rolled my eyes and refused to get excited about it, as I just saw her as someone like me (I was a virgin then too), who was being pulled into this system with this ugly old man.

At the exact same time, I was living college dorm life, waiting for phone calls from cute college boys, studying late nights with pizza and new friends, worrying about my possible career path after college and what outfit I'd wear to the next party.

Watching this episode really brought this back to me, and it shows how she was moved into this life she was so ill-equipped for, with someone she never loved, who never loved her.

Having Charles tell her to start using Camilla's name is just cruel.  And the anger that he expressed was also cruel.  She is,  after all, the mother to his son(s).  Plural, since Harry never seems to get mentioned here.

Edited November 26, 2022 by Starlight925

[truthful]

9 hours ago, GiuliettaMasina said:

This is the crux of why, despite all her subsequent bad behavior (and there was plenty), I still side more with Diana. Plenty of teenagers pretend to be more interested in their crushes' interests than they actually are. That's not manipulation, that's being immature, and it comes along with the territory when you are an actual child. And, yes, I absolutely consider a 19-year-old a child; the law's got to draw a line somewhere, but that doesn't change brain chemistry and physiological development. If the royal family was looking for someone with a mature understanding of how marriage can be a partnership in ways other than romantic, they should've found an adult.

A nineteen year old is, for all intents and purposes, an adult. Diana, no matter how much people want to view her as a child, was old enough to make her own choices in life. She shouldn't be overlooked about her responsibility in this mess. 

[GiuliettaMasina]

15 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It seems like this gets put out there as if it's almost an ancient geis they fear to break, but it's hard to believe that in 1981 Charles couldn't have married an adult who just didn't have any previous marriages or actually lived with someone or had too bad of a reputation and everyone just agrees to a polite fiction. We've seen they can move with the times when it's too hard to play Victorian Times.

Exactly! They brought this mess on their own heads, only to have to change all the rules anyway.

8 hours ago, truthful said:

A nineteen year old is, for all intents and purposes, an adult. Diana, no matter how much people want to view her as a child, was old enough to make her own choices in life. She shouldn't be overlooked about her responsibility in this mess. 

The law is not the arbiter of physiology. A 17-year-old does not magically gain maturity on their 18th birthday, they've just reached the stage in life where we've decided that they need to start making their own choices and living with the consequences because that's how you learn to make good choices and learn to cope with the consequences of your inevitable bad decisions. When I was 19 I was "old enough" to make my own choices, I was also still very much a child.

In other news, I thought it was interesting how many times this season I wanted to give characters the "Walter Sobchak Award;" that is to say "You're not wrong...you're just an asshole." Diana, Charles, the Queen all had moments where they were "technically right" but butchered the execution. I felt this particularly with Charles, who is definitely had the right idea about modernizing the Firm, but couldn't get past his own peevish self-righteousness to be a good advocate for his ideas.

Edited November 26, 2022 by GiuliettaMasina