S01.E09: The Green Council

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 10/17/2022 at 4:28 PM, The Kings Foot said:

Finally everyone with influence doesnt use ravens.  Ravens are used by the Maesters.  No maester, no raven. 

Indeed. And anyone trying to send a raven to Rhaenyra from the Red Keep without the maesters would have to sneak into the raven room, and even if that's not normally guarded then Otto is certainly having it guarded after Viserys's death. And they'd have to have knowledge of which ravens are trained to go to which destination. You don't just pick a raven at random and tell it where to go, each has one place it's trained to deliver messages to.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[LanceM]

“The common people pray for rain, health and a summer that never ends. They don’t care what games the high lords play”

-Jorah Mormont

In other words they may not like the idea of a woman ruler but they are not going to do anything about it unless it starts to effect them personally such as a war that causes mass starvation, etc,

Edited October 19, 2022 by LanceM

[Athena5217]

12 hours ago, MyArchangel said:

how in the world when you have someone like Larys and he does something for you and you discuss payment does he say "Well your Grace, instead of gold or silver, all you need to do is show me your bear feet and I will just play with myself a little bit" and then she agrees to that

I realize this was a typo, but the idea of Alicent pulling off her stockings and showing Larys big furry feet cracked me up. I bet he wouldn’t find those bear feet arousing!

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 10/17/2022 at 1:18 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Don't you just hate it when you are getting coronated and your aunt (I think?  It's hard to tell with this family!)

Cousin once removed. Rhaenys is the daughter of King Jaehaerys the Conciliator and Good Queen Alysanne's elder son, Prince Aemon, by Lady Jocelyn Baratheon. Viserys and Daemon are the sons of Jaehaerys and Alysanne's second son, Prince Baelon, and one of their daughters, Princess Alyssa.

[Oscirus]

2 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

She did the opposite. She said, "You imbecile." Meaning that of course she loves him and he's silly to doubt it.

When your mother who can barely look at you or even sit near you calls you an imbecile  after you ask her if she loves you, you tend to get an entirely different message. If that was her intention, that was a big ole fail.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

14 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Exactly.  The rebellion ultimately was about Aerys' madness and unfitness to rule for everyone except the Starks and Robert Baratheon.

Plus after killing Rickard and Brandon, Aerys called for Ned and Robert's heads without them having even done anything, and Jon Arryn refused to give them to him (they were in the Eyrie being fostered by Jon at the time). They had no choice but to rebel.

6 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

and with Aemond too (I don't recall when that occurred but have seen it mentioned in this topic a few times).

Do you mean the posts that say Aemond was shielding Helaena? It actually doesn't look that way. We don't see him going to her, just standing in a position that happens to be forward of hers once Rhaenys is facing the dais. In fact, Alicent sends Criston over to shield her.

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

When your mother who can barely look at you or even sit near you calls you an imbecile  after you ask her if she loves you, you tend to get an entirely different message. If that was her intention, that was a big ole fail.

No, it came over loud and clear. People say "you imbecile" like that in the soft, affectionate tone she used when other people didn't realize they loved them in movies all the time. Which is why it was immediately recognizable.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Oscirus]

20 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Do you mean the posts that say Aemond was shielding Helaena? It actually doesn't look that way. We don't see him going to her, just standing in a position that happens to be forward of hers once Rhaenys is facing the dais. In fact, Alicent sends Criston over to shield her.

No, it came over loud and clear. People say "you imbecile" like that in the soft, affectionate tone she used when other people didn't realize they loved them in movies all the time. Which is why it was immediately recognizable.

We dont see him going over to her cuz the cameras on the dragon coming into the room. Hes clearly in front of helena in a defensive position the next time we see them, its not a coincidence. 

Ive never once heard someone call someone else an imbecile when their kid or anybody else for that matter asked a person if they love them. Even if that was what she was going for with her tone, that was a stupid way to answer the question. 

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, Oscirus said:

When your mother who can barely look at you or even sit near you calls you an imbecile  after you ask her if she loves you, you tend to get an entirely different message. If that was her intention, that was a big ole fail.

If they were modern people.

In that kind of society, a child would never ask a parent "do you love me" because (a) people didn't say such things to each other and (b) parent's love for a child was demonstrated by deeds (giving food, teaching skills, helping promote socially, arranging marriage).

Thus, when Aegon ask such a question - and in the circumstance when his mother had done everything for his success which he didn't deserve - he indeed proved that he was a fool.  

[Roseanna]

19 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

Its using real life events life  like the English Anarchy and the Hundred Years War as its basis. 

1. In the English Anarchy  the nobles swore to follow the King's daughter Matilda but on his death crowned her cousin Stephen  instead. leading to a 15 year  civil war.  The negotiated outcome left Stephen as King but he names Matilda's son his heir. 

2. In 1317 the French King died and a grand council of nobles was called to choose between his brother or his daughter.  They chose his brother. 

   Just 11 years later in 1328 the French King dies.  The English King Edward III was the closest descendent of the late French King  being his nephew via the King's sister.    However,  the French nobility brought up the Salic Law ( a law which had not been used in 500 years ! ) to declare that not only could a woman not succeed, but succession could not pass through a woman.  This led to the Hundred Years War as the English Kings tried to claim the throne of France. 

That just proves that the writers don't understand that kind of society at all.

After her brother died, Mathilda was made an heir by his father, but he tried to get a son by his second wife and if he had succeeded, Mathilda would have been supplanted by her younger brother.

As for the France, the problem was that if a crown could pass through a woman, a foreigner could become the king.  

[The Kings Foot]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

That just proves that the writers don't understand that kind of society at all.

After her brother died, Mathilda was made an heir by his father, but he tried to get a son by his second wife and if he had succeeded, Mathilda would have been supplanted by her younger brother.

As for the France, the problem was that if a crown could pass through a woman, a foreigner could become the king.  

Think youve misread the conversation.  Stardancer Supreme was saying its badly written because they dont want a woman on the throne. That it makes them all incels. 

Whereas as you seem to agree, in real life Rhaenyra would always have been supplanted by a younger brother. 

As for the French situation , while yes that was the real reason, the fact remains they were willing to diminish all women  in order to prevent Edward from taking the throne. 

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

in real life Rhaenyra would always have been supplanted by a younger brother.

Yes, and that was true even with Victoria and Elizabeth II. 

Therefore, I think the writers haven't made a plausible explanation why Viserys acted otherwise. That he loved his daughter more than his sons isn't enough.

Also, in the society where bastard are despised, no king wouldn't overlooked the suspicions about Rhaenyra's older childrens' legitimacy, because if he did, his judgment would have questioned by his subjects also in other matters.

However, there is one point where the writers had done their homework: Mathilda's situation would have been better if she had been beside her father's deathbed and/or left at once for England to be anointed and crowned like Stephen did. But once again, the writers blundered: "taking children home" is no reason for the heir when the king is near his death - unless they wanted to show that Rhaenyra has no ability for the power play.

[proserpina65]

8 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Do you mean the posts that say Aemond was shielding Helaena? It actually doesn't look that way. We don't see him going to her, just standing in a position that happens to be forward of hers once Rhaenys is facing the dais. In fact, Alicent sends Criston over to shield her.

I rewatched that scene last night, and Aemond definitely had moved over more in front of Helaena than where he was standing before Rhaenys and Meleys burst into the chamber.  Not exactly directly in front of her, true, but much more than previously.  Now, that may have been more a function of moving forward in expectation of fighting, not of being protective of his sister, but at least he wasn't hiding behind his mommy.

8 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Ive never once heard someone call someone else an imbecile when their kid or anybody else for that matter asked a person if they love them. Even if that was what she was going for with her tone, that was a stupid way to answer the question. 

I've heard things along the lines of "Of course I do, you idiot" in a joking manner, but the "I do" part was always included.  Alicent may have intended something like that, but it certainly didn't come across that way so I wouldn't be surprised if Aegon didn't take it that way at all.

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

That just proves that the writers don't understand that kind of society at all.

After her brother died, Mathilda was made an heir by his father, but he tried to get a son by his second wife and if he had succeeded, Mathilda would have been supplanted by her younger brother.

I don't think it proves any lack of understanding by the writers.  All it proves is that Viserys was a different person than Henry I.  Certainly the writers got that most of the lords in Westeros EXPECTED him to set aside Rhaenyra once his son was born, like Henry would've done.

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

Therefore, I think the writers haven't made a plausible explanation why Viserys acted otherwise. That he loved his daughter more than his sons isn't enough.

Because he's a different person who had a less than perfect grasp on the ultimate loyalty of his lords and acted differently.  He'd been shown to be a less effective king than he might've been so it's perfectly believable that he'd have an inaccurate view of the succession issue.

While GRRM based his Westeros works on medieval English history to a certain extent, they aren't a literal representation of that society.  Westeros society is a fictional creation so it doesn't have to abide by how things happened in actual history.

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

Therefore, I think the writers haven't made a plausible explanation why Viserys acted otherwise. That he loved his daughter more than his sons isn't enough.

It's enough for this particular fictional character.  That he was wrong about how others would react doesn't negate HIS feelings about the issue.

[SharonH58]

On 10/17/2022 at 12:30 AM, paigow said:

Larys will be the first ever Hand & Foot Of The Queen....

I bet next time he'll want to fondle some feet!

[blackwing]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Therefore, I think the writers haven't made a plausible explanation why Viserys acted otherwise. That he loved his daughter more than his sons isn't enough.

Also, in the society where bastard are despised, no king wouldn't overlooked the suspicions about Rhaenyra's older childrens' legitimacy, because if he did, his judgment would have questioned by his subjects also in other matters.

However, there is one point where the writers had done their homework: Mathilda's situation would have been better if she had been beside her father's deathbed and/or left at once for England to be anointed and crowned like Stephen did. But once again, the writers blundered: "taking children home" is no reason for the heir when the king is near his death - unless they wanted to show that Rhaenyra has no ability for the power play.

I'd like to think that Viserys was saving face.  It looked like Rhaenyra would be his only child.  He was so against the idea of Daemon becoming King that he would rather name Rhaenyra as heir instead.  He was all in on the idea that a woman could rule, and he made his intentions very clear.  I think he didn't want to say he only chose Rhaenyra to spite Daemon.  So he made it look like he trusted in Rhaenyra and she was the best choice.

Later on after he has his sons, it would have been natural to just say that Aegon is heir since he is the first born son.  But that would have undermined his authority and decision he had made earlier.

At least that's why I think he made this decision.  And the fact that if Aegon had just supplanted her, then we wouldn't have a book/show because there would be no conflict.

I agree with you that it was ridiculous that Rhaenyra and Daemon just took off to Dragonstone even with the King so ill and frail.  But I suppose they thought that he's been on his deathbed for years, so what's the difference.  They would have been advised to stay in King's Landing.  

[jeansheridan]

11 hours ago, Oscirus said:

When your mother who can barely look at you or even sit near you calls you an imbecile  after you ask her if she loves you, you tend to get an entirely different message. If that was her intention, that was a big ole fail.

I 100% believed she meant she loved him. Olivia's amused eyes did the work there. Plus jumping between him and a dragon. I just realized she was never worried about Aemond in that moment. Either a sign of respect or forgetfulness.  I think respect. She clearly didn't worry about her dad.

[CountryGirl]

4 minutes ago, blackwing said:

At least that's why I think he made this decision.  And the fact that if Aegon had just supplanted her, then we wouldn't have a book/show because there would be no conflict.

I tend to agree. If he had changed his mind once Aegon was born or even once he achieved maturity, where's the conflict? If Rhaenys had taken out all the "Greens" last episode, where's the conflict?

No conflict, no show.

[cambridgeguy]

50 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Later on after he has his sons, it would have been natural to just say that Aegon is heir since he is the first born son.  But that would have undermined his authority and decision he had made earlier.

I don’t think we can underestimate how much his love for Aemma and subsequent guilt over her death plays in.  Plus from what we’ve seen the only family he truly cared about were Aemma, Rhaenyra, and Daemon.  The rest are secondary

[Oscirus]

6 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

Whereas as you seem to agree, in real life Rhaenyra would always have been supplanted by a younger brother.  

Weird thing is if Otto wouldve kept his mouth shut, thats what wouldve happened. At the time that Viserys named Rhaenyra his heir, everybody including Rhaenyra was shocked at this. If Otto wouldve just let Daemon be the just in case heir, none of this wouldve been necessary

[Oscirus]

Also ignoring the fact that locking the dragon in the sept wouldve done nothing, what were the guards hoping to accomplish by closing the door? Were they secretly team black, advocating for the extermination of the royal family?

[The Kings Foot]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Yes, and that was true even with Victoria and Elizabeth II. 

Therefore, I think the writers haven't made a plausible explanation why Viserys acted otherwise. That he loved his daughter more than his sons isn't enough.

Viserys is a very sentimental person as this entire season has shown. He gave his reason in that big bonfire scene where he talked to Alicent.  he killed Aemma in his quest for a male heir and thought her was righting that wrong by naming Rhaenyra  Heir  Then he doubled down when R confronted him about her only being named heir to spite Daemon.  As far as Viserys is concerned this has nothing to do with the realm or legal rights.  This is about him  keeping his word to his daughter. 

This is the reason why he is a bad and weak king.  He lets his personal honour get in the way of statecraft. 

Edited October 19, 2022 by The Kings Foot

[Roccos Brother]

The more I think about it, the more I realize why this last episode didn't sit right with me. I'm going to be echoing what others have already alluded to, but it feels like this series has been full of gratuitous showboat-y moments done for the sake of pandering to the type of audiences that are won over by such theatrics. Some have described it as "fanservicey". 

Rhaenys felt she should have been Queen at one point, but didn't mind that her performative stunt caused destruction, chaos, and the deaths of innocent civilians that she would have been sworn to protect. IIRC, it was mentioned that the exits to the dragon pit were guarded and sealed, so why wouldn't the entrances be as well? Why was she able to waltz right in without any trouble? And if she intended to use force anyway it probably would have been less destructive for her to just go out through the regular exits.

I get that she wanted to make a statement but it feels like this was more about the writers wanting to give fans another meme-worthy "badass" moment. Early seasons of GoT emphasized the consequences of short-sighted, even well-intended actions. Something tells me there won't be any at all for Rhaenys but we shall see.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Roccos Brother

[Noneofyourbusiness]

If I hadn't already known from the casting announcements, I wouldn't have realized that Erryk and Arryk Cargyll were being played by real twins, Luke and Elliott Tittensor, instead of the same person like Jason and Tyland Lannister (both are Jefferson Hall). If anything, they look more alike than Jason and Tyland. I was wondering if anyone is surprised to learn that there was no CGI trickery involved in this case.

59 minutes ago, Roccos Brother said:

IIRC, it was mentioned that the exits to the dragon pit were guarded and sealed, so why wouldn't the entrances be as well?

Rhaenys said, "If I could get to the Dragonpit, then..." and Erryk said, "No, they'll expect you there, Princess. You won't get past the gates."

I'd speculate that she sneaked down through a lesser known passage in the sept. Big enough for a person but not a dragon.

[LanceM]

Rhaenys got into the dragon pit because she just blended in with the crowd that were literally being pushed in by the city watch. Not sure if Erryck knew they were going to do that,

Edited October 19, 2022 by LanceM

[Avabelle]

1 hour ago, Roccos Brother said:

get that she wanted to make a statement but it feels like this was more about the writers wanting to give fans another meme-worthy "badass" moment

Except there was no bad ass moment. Literally nothing happened asides the death of all the civilians. Her actions did nothing to drive the plot at all.

[RobertDeSneero]

I think people are obsessing too much about the people killed in the dragonpit.  Assume that the regular way out was barred, so that Rhaenys can either escape through the floor as she did or else not escape at all.  Should she flee or remain a prisoner?  What if there was no way for her to leave without causing even more collateral damage?

[jeansheridan]

37 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

I think people are obsessing too much about the people killed in the dragonpit. 

Not unreasonably.  They were people. Just like all the people who died when Dany burned Kings Landing. Rhyners was worried about herself and her dragon. I like her well enough but back to the wall she didn't worry about collateral damage. Then again I doubt many would. Would Jon Snow if he had to rescue a dragon? Because I do consider her actions a dragon rescue. For now. I know some will die because humans are idiots and undeserving.

[Dac22]

3 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

I don’t think we can underestimate how much his love for Aemma and subsequent guilt over her death plays in. 

Yeah, a big part of it is him wanting to assuage his own guilt. 

He didn't act with malice, but he basically chose to doom his own family and throw the realm into chaos for his own selfish reasons. Despite wanting to unite, he intentionally divided.

While I found the character to be sympathetic at some points, I ultimately felt he was incompetent as a king and person as he knowingly set up thousands and thousands to die. 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Dac22

[Cristofle]

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Weird thing is if Otto wouldve kept his mouth shut, thats what wouldve happened. At the time that Viserys named Rhaenyra his heir, everybody including Rhaenyra was shocked at this. If Otto wouldve just let Daemon be the just in case heir, none of this wouldve been necessary

In retrospect this really does seem short-sighted, doesn't it? He seemed to believe that Viserys dying before Alicent could successfully work her magic was such a threat, he needed to stop Daemon being heir THAT NIGHT. And he apparently completely misunderstood the depth of Viserys' connection to his daughter - that if he made this vow, he was not going to back out of it no matter how many sons he'd go on to have. Otto in general is one of the better politicians of the show, but I think his personal hatred for Daemon overwhelmed his judgment here. 

[Constantinople]

My headcannon is Rhaenys decided she won't do Rhaenyra's dirty work for her.

[blackwing]

4 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

I tend to agree. If he had changed his mind once Aegon was born or even once he achieved maturity, where's the conflict? If Rhaenys had taken out all the "Greens" last episode, where's the conflict?

No conflict, no show.

I think it would have been the perfect opportunity for Rhaenys to have her dragon roast all of them.  Except maybe Alicent, who was saved by the burning husk of Criston Cole, because someone from her faction needs to survive.  Perhaps Rhaenys will take this opportunity to transform herself from The Queen That Never Was into The One True Queen, I'm not sure.

But instead of the obviously impending Rhaenyra vs. Aegon/Alicent battle, I think it would have been great to see a three way battle between Rhaenyra (The Named Heir), Rhaenys (The One True Queen), and Alicent (Mother of the Roasted King).

22 minutes ago, Dac22 said:

Yeah, a big part of it is him wanting to assuage his own guilt. 

He didn't act with malice, but he basically chose to doom his own family and throw the realm into chaos for his own selfish reasons. Despite wanting to unite, he intentionally divided.

While I found the character to be sympathetic at some points, I ultimately felt he was incompetent as a king and person as he knowingly set up thousands and thousands to die. 

Which is exactly what Rhaenyra said to him.  "In naming me heir, you divided the realm."  I think he was a complete idiot.  It seemed that everyone but him knew that there would be civil war as soon as he died.  He seemed to stupidly believe that everyone had sworn to the princess and that they would support the princess.  Meanwhile, he completely ignores the signs that his dear wife has been stewing for 20 years about the injustice done to her and her son.  

If he truly wanted to support Rhaenyra as heir, he would have fired Otto Hightower and replaced him with someone loyal to Rhaenyra.  Like Daemon.  He's been incapacitated for months/years, during which Otto is effectively the King, and he thinks that Otto and Alicent will just calmly accept his decision?  Truly an incompetent idiot.

[Dac22]

2 minutes ago, blackwing said:

He seemed to stupidly believe that everyone had sworn to the princess and that they would support the princess. 

Not to mention a good number of those lords died and were replaced with people who swore no such oath to Rhaenyra. He at least should have brought them to KL and had them take the same oath.

If he truly wanted Rhaenyra to be the heir, then he should have set the path up for her. That means he should have had a backbone and told the council he wasn't going to get married again. Or, at the least, not have any kids. 

Rhaenyra has a much better chance to sit on the throne if she is running unopposed.

After naming her heir, he should have found the best alliance possible and married her off to produce her own heirs in case anything should happen to the two of them. Rhaenyra inherits the throne, then her kid(s), and so on. 

Once he continued to have kids, including three boys, the story had been written.

If someone knows fire is hot, then the only person to blame if they intentionally put their hand in it and get burned is them. It might suck, but the person knows how things operate.

[ICantDoThatDave]

1 hour ago, RobertDeSneero said:

I think people are obsessing too much about the people killed in the dragonpit.  Assume that the regular way out was barred, so that Rhaenys can either escape through the floor as she did or else not escape at all.  Should she flee or remain a prisoner?  What if there was no way for her to leave without causing even more collateral damage?

So the theory is that the main entrance to the Dragonpit was somehow more dragon-resistant than busting through the ceiling?  I don't buy it.

That plus the question of how she even got to the dragon (anyone could've taken that passage? there were literally no guards who saw her?) is why you don't have a *major*, highly-improbable plot point occur offscreen just because you want something "cool" to happen.

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, RobertDeSneero said:

I think people are obsessing too much about the people killed in the dragonpit.  Assume that the regular way out was barred, so that Rhaenys can either escape through the floor as she did or else not escape at all.  Should she flee or remain a prisoner?  What if there was no way for her to leave without causing even more collateral damage?

Why would the way out have been barred?  She has a dragon, there are no bars. Not to mention that I doubt the people of kings landing wouldve been stupid enough to try and entomb unwilling dragons.

[RobertDeSneero]

51 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

In retrospect this really does seem short-sighted, doesn't it? He seemed to believe that Viserys dying before Alicent could successfully work her magic was such a threat, he needed to stop Daemon being heir THAT NIGHT. 

Even before Aemma (and Baelon) died, Otto was anti-Daemon.  That's why Daemon kept being moved around to various posts, ending up in charge of the City Watch.

There's a real possibility that Otto was once a reasonable man who was against Daemon being heir for the good of the realm, legitimately fearing another Maegor the Cruel, that he was desperate to remove Daemon from the succession by any means necessary.  Maybe he only went off the rails once he had the opportunity for a royal grandson, but was decent before that.

[RobertDeSneero]

8 minutes ago, ICantDoThatDave said:

So the theory is that the main entrance to the Dragonpit was somehow more dragon-resistant than busting through the ceiling?  I don't buy it.

The theory would be that one reason to build the Dragonpit would be to be able to contain the dragons inside and they didn't think in three dimensions, so didn't make the ceiling strong enough.

It's not hard to imagine the Dragonpit being constructed by a paranoid Targaryen who wanted to be able to prevent dragons from being used against him.

[Jack Shaftoe]

2 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Rhaenys said, "If I could get to the Dragonpit, then..." and Erryk said, "No, they'll expect you there, Princess. You won't get past the gates."

Maybe Erryk was being an idiot since (IIRC) nobody yet knew that Rhaenys had escaped and therefore they had zero reasons to think anyone would do any dragon kidnapping. It's much easier to keep a dragon rider prisoner than to guard the dragon pit. Team Green isn't exactly a brain trust but one guard for Rhaenys and (supposedly) a ton of guards for her dragon - who is impossible to steal for anyone but her - makes no sense whatsoever.

1 hour ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Assume that the regular way out was barred, so that Rhaenys can either escape through the floor as she did or else not escape at all.

There is no reason to assume the regular exits would be barred and how exactly do you bar an exit from a dragon who can smash walls anyway? In what scenario is escaping through (presumably) the most heavily guarded location in the city is the only viable option?

The writers and the director could have removed the uncertainly by actually showing us how and why Rhaenys chose this rather unconventional way of leaving the dragon pit but, of course, this would have spoiled the surprise. Can't have that. Style over substance.

36 minutes ago, blackwing said:

If he truly wanted to support Rhaenyra as heir, he would have fired Otto Hightower and replaced him with someone loyal to Rhaenyra.  Like Daemon.  He's been incapacitated for months/years, during which Otto is effectively the King, and he thinks that Otto and Alicent will just calmly accept his decision?  Truly an incompetent idiot.

Yeah, Viserys was a really bad ruler who not only made sure a civil war would erupt soon after his death but was extremely lucky not to have it in his own lifetime. Turns out that "la-la-la, I can't hear you" isn't a recipe for success.

[Oscirus]

Also even if through the ceiling was the only way out, once she got through the ceiling, she didnt try to leave, she went the opposite way of the exit towards the family. Why even go towards the family if she was trying to just get away

[cambridgeguy]

57 minutes ago, blackwing said:

If he truly wanted to support Rhaenyra as heir, he would have fired Otto Hightower and replaced him with someone loyal to Rhaenyra.  Like Daemon.  He's been incapacitated for months/years, during which Otto is effectively the King, and he thinks that Otto and Alicent will just calmly accept his decision?  Truly an incompetent idiot.

He should have replaced Otto with Rhaenyra herself.  She was an adult and had spent time sitting on the council, so who better to replace Harwin than the next in line.  There's certainly precedent - Viserys mentioned that his father Baelon had been named Hand only to subsequently die a short time later.  If he expected her to be the first ruling queen then she easily could have been the first female Hand.

[go4luca]

37 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Why even go towards the family if she was trying to just get away

To make a point.

[blackwing]

48 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Also even if through the ceiling was the only way out, once she got through the ceiling, she didnt try to leave, she went the opposite way of the exit towards the family. Why even go towards the family if she was trying to just get away

Because she was basically giving them the finger.  "I could dracarys you all right now and save this kingdom from being ruled by a psychopathic idiot.  But I won't.  You guys don't deserve to live, but you're not important enough to me to bother.  Good day."

I have a feeling she's going to regret not killing them all.  She should be supporting Rhaenyra since her daughters are married to Rhaenyra's heirs and if Rhaenyra wins, her daughter eventually becomes Queen Consort.

Of course, as we have said, if she had roasted them, there would be no story.

[Oscirus]

19 minutes ago, go4luca said:

To make a point.

So she wasnt trying to escape then, she just killed a whole lotta towns folk to put the fear of god in the greens before flying off. That makes what she did even worse than thinking she was going to kill them if not for the mother bond between her and Alicent

[go4luca]

8 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

So she wasnt trying to escape then, she just killed a whole lotta towns folk to put the fear of god in the greens before flying off. That makes what she did even worse than thinking she was going to kill them if not for the mother bond between her and Alicent

I was responding to you writing why did she go towards them.  Then she turned to leave after making her point.

[ICantDoThatDave]

But the initial question about how this whole scenario would work was "why did she go through the ceiling instead of the front door of Dragonpit?"  The answer was "so she could escape, since she couldn't (theoretically) escape through the front doors of Dragonpit".

So going towards them to make a point means she was not actually trying to escape, negating the initial theory on why she went through the ceiling.  (also, I have no idea how she survived her dragon crashing through the ceiling - sure, the dragon would, but the rider?) This much Handwavium to try to explain a scene that was clearly just written to "look cool" is a problem, IMO.

[paigow]

7 hours ago, blackwing said:

I'd like to think that Viserys was saving face. 

That ship sailed a while ago...

[Johnny Dollar]

Ser Criston Cole, whose sense of honor and duty were besmirched by a teenager, seems to have gotten over it. 

[Meredith Quill]

A thought that has occurred to me re Alicent misinterpreting Viserys last words; all Rhaenyra would have to do is ask Aegon if he knows 'the' prophecy - if the answer is no (which obvs it would be), then she would know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Alicent is talking out of her arse about Viserys naming Aegon his heir with his last breath.

Not that it would matter now imo, Aegon has had a taste of what being king feels like and doubtless wouldn't care about some prophecy, but at least Alicent would be under no self-delusion about the part she played in what's to come.

The knife being proof of said prophecy.

[MrsR]

9 hours ago, Roccos Brother said:

Why was she able to waltz right in without any trouble? And if she intended to use force anyway it probably would have been less destructive for her to just go out through the regular exits

The dragon pit is designed to keep dragons in, not people out. Dragons are their own security system.

There was a very distracting event going on topside of course she could slip thru.

Which brings us to why she burst through the floor, she was trying to stop a coronation. But Alicent and Otto cheaped out and only paid for the five minute service. Once she saw that he was crowned that would have made her a king slayer, and she wasn't going there.

The other thing about dragons, and lions as well, is they don't care about the welfare of the sheep, or their opinions.

[ShannaB]

On 10/18/2022 at 11:49 AM, proserpina65 said:

She didn't have much choice about trampling anyone.  Ser Arryk (or was it Ser Erryk?) told her they'd expect her to go to the dragon pit, so I'd think they'd have the entrance/exit heavily guarded.  Which meant leaving that way would be very difficult.  Breaking through the roof of it (I guess?) was probably the least dangerous option for her and Meleys.

Thank you for this.  The Pit Masters know their dragons and would know how to kill Meleys as well as Rhaenys.  I honestly feel that Rhaenys took the only option she had available to her and her dragon at the time and it also gave her the opportunity to make a glaring statement at the Green Team.  It also gave notice to the people of King's Landing that not all Tarqs are okay with this rushed coronation.  Rhaenys has a lot at stake....her granddaughters, her home, her dragon and  she needs to warn Rhae and Dae.  I have seen nothing  in her character, thus far, that would suggest that she would fry the Greens at this point in the story.

The innocent bystanders being trampled is very unfortunate but HELLO!! Look at the history of this world and our world.  The ground has always been soaked with the blood of the innocent.  If an action is deemed expedient, then damn the consequences.  If there is a power struggle and  a quest for wealth, well, damn the consequences.  The consequences are the innocent.  I find Rhaenys to be an honorable woman and I don't condone the deaths caused by her exit plan but I think this was her only shot.

I just want to say that I am completely in awe of the dragons.  I think we have been given more insight in HOD regarding the bond of rider and dragon.  Look at Leana and Vhagar.  Look at Rhaenys and Meleys.  The bond is empathic and visceral.  Vhagar mourned Laena and Meleys literally showed Rhaenys' seething anger.  Rhaenys held her dragon in check from frying the Greens without any visible movement.  Amazing scene.

Ive been thinking(way too much) that the showrunners are purposely making Daemon and Aemond so similar in looks, demeanor and even their walk.  Yes? No?  there has to be a reason for this beyond an eventual showdown.

[ICantDoThatDave]

10 minutes ago, MrsR said:

The dragon pit is designed to keep dragons in, not people out. Dragons are their own security system.

So, they posted guards at the front gate of the Dragonpit, rounded up all the Lords who might be loyal to Rhaenyra & made them swear fealty or executed them, herded people into the coronation, but, like, totes forgot to guard the super secret passage that literally anyone at the coronation could have used?

It's just... implausible that anyone, much less a dragon rider of questionable loyalty (who they made sure to lock in her chambers), would've been able to get to a dragon at this particular time - they even had a character point this out in the episode how unlikely that would be!  It'd be like leaving your nuclear bombs unguarded during an inauguration - either they are horribly stupid or... well, it's a major plot hole.  I lean towards the latter.

[Oscirus]

35 minutes ago, ShannaB said:

Thank you for this.  The Pit Masters know their dragons and would know how to kill Meleys as well as Rhaenys.  I honestly feel that Rhaenys took the only option she had available to her and her dragon at the time and it also gave her the opportunity to make a glaring statement at the Green Team.  It also gave notice to the people of King's Landing that not all Tarqs are okay with this rushed coronation.  Rhaenys has a lot at stake....her granddaughters, her home, her dragon and  she needs to warn Rhae and Dae.  I have seen nothing  in her character, thus far, that would suggest that she would fry the Greens at this point in the story.

The innocent bystanders being trampled is very unfortunate but HELLO!! Look at the history of this world and our world.  The ground has always been soaked with the blood of the innocent.  If an action is deemed expedient, then damn the consequences.  If there is a power struggle and  a quest for wealth, well, damn the consequences.  The consequences are the innocent.  I find Rhaenys to be an honorable woman and I don't condone the deaths caused by her exit plan but I think this was her only shot.

So these pit masters with knowledge of dragons heard a dragon crashing through the ceiling and decided to stay where they're at? As opposed to going to confront said dragon? 

Given these circumstances, Rhaenys who had a short window decided to stick around long enough to send an unnecessary message to the greens? That explanation makes her even more of a dumbass