S01.E08: The Lord of the Tides

[nikma]

Including prophecy in House of the Dragon was confirmed to be idea from showrunners Condal and Sapochnik. They talked about it in interviews. And they said the intention was to connect two shows. And obviously Including dagger that was used to kill the Night King is part of that.

It wasn't GRRM's idea to include that.

They also talked a lot how there are basically two canons and HOTD is (naturally) part of GOT television canon.

And I don't see how this prophecy contradicts anything that happened in the original show. Targaryen sitting on the Iron Throne was Viserys' interpretation of prophecy, not part of it.

And prophecies shouldn't be taken too literally. They never really happen exactly as they are told. The interesting aspect is what they do to characters and their interpretations of prophecies, whether it's from Viserys or Melisandre. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by nikma

[bunnyblue]

8 hours ago, ybrik said:

I think Rhaenyra has been more focused on preparing herself and her kids to rule then actually putting into place a plan to be crowned. She is relying too much on the vow people took to have her be named queen without taking into account what happens if parts of the realm don’t want it. Alicent and the Greens have been stacking the small council and the Keep with help to secure Aegon’s coronation but they don’t seem that interested in prepping him to be a King. 

I love this part so much. It's been 20 years since Viserys named Rhaenyra his heir but she has done little to gain allies in those years. Even when she lived in KL with Laenor, they looked to be pretty isolated and ally-less, except for Lord Caswell. Regarding the bolded part: and now she has the added problem that the sons of the lords who pledged themselves to her are unwilling to stick to that pledge, as shown in this episode. I'm curious to see who (if anyone) defects from the Greens and joins Rhaenyra's side, because as it stands the Greens have far more power and allies than the Blacks.

[nikma]

Rhaenyra's actions just feel too stupid. I can't take her seriously.

[Sakura12]

That was the slowest killing disease ever seen in the dark ages. Lol I was happy Viserys died thinking his family made up, then he ruined it all with his last words.

I'm guessing Alicent put her hatred aside to realize that Rhaenyra would be  better monarch then her drunk rapist son. Well at least until she misinterpreted Viserys. 

Vaemond knew he wasn't walking out with what he wanted or alive so he went all out. I do like that Daemon didn't even cut off his head, he cut his face in half like he was playing fruit ninja. 

I don't know why Rhaenys wouldn't have taken Rhaenyra up on her offer. Marrying Rhaena and Baela (they do know there other letters in the alphabet, right?) would honor Corlys' wishes and keep the Valaryon bloodline with their children. 

[Lady Whistleup]

The thing is that Rhaenyra wasn't just named heir 20 years ago. This decision had been challenged countless times by team Hightower and Viserys had always been adamant that his decision stood. In that way, Viserys was made of strong stuff. Like Ned Stark, he keeps his word. I also think that deep down, Alicent realizes that her cruel sons would make poor rulers. But she's too power-hungry and also too rigid in her thinking to accept Rhaenyra as an heir. The internalized misogyny is strong in Alicent.

[Stardancer Supreme]

3 hours ago, ursula said:

The girls are supposed to be the same age as Jace, at least. Rhaenyra and Laenor got married before Daemon and Laena. None of them should be older than 15, which is how long it's been since the wedding in episode 4 (16 years) - 9 months of pregnancy. The boys still look like teenagers but the girls look much older, which makes me wonder/suspect if there's going to be a romantic dynamic between one of the girls and Aemond.

Nah. Both of those girls can't stand Aemond after he claimed Laena's dragon. No way will either of them willingly go to be Aemond's wife!

1 hour ago, ursula said:

Yeah I wonder what Helena’s meant when she said “most of the time he ignores you except when he’s drunk”. 😬  Alicent went the incest Targaryen route and couldn’t even marry her daughter to the brother that would have treated her decently. smh…

Baela and Rhaena are the only single Targ girls in the realm. It fits their culture of in-breeding that Aemond (and even Aegon) would feel resentful that they’ve been married off to such “Strong” boys. 

Helaena meant that Aegon mostly ignores her until he gets in his cups. His raping her is where their children came from.  Those bags under his eyes indicate strong alcoholism. I wonder if she would be abused so if Alicent chose Aemond to be her husband.

Also Baela and Rhaena much prefer their cousins and appear happy to be with Rhaenyra's sons.  Aegon better not go after Baela; Jacerys would have to kill his rapey uncle. 

[ybrik]

5 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

That was the slowest killing disease ever seen in the dark ages. Lol I was happy Viserys died thinking his family made up, then he ruined it all with his last words.

I'm guessing Alicent put her hatred aside to realize that Rhaenyra would be  better monarch then her drunk rapist son. Well at least until she misinterpreted Viserys. 

Vaemond knew he wasn't walking out with what he wanted or alive so he went all out. I do like that Daemon didn't even cut off his head, he cut his face in half like he was playing fruit ninja. 

I don't know why Rhaenys wouldn't have taken Rhaenyra up on her offer. Marrying Rhaena and Baela (they do know there other letters in the alphabet, right?) would honor Corlys' wishes and keep the Valaryon bloodline with their children. 

To your last two points I think this goes back to what Rhaenyra said last week. People will think she killed Laenor. Rhaenys didn’t automatically jump on Rhaenyra’s deal because she didn’t want to help her out if she thought there was a chance to hurt Rhaenyra However once Viserys came out, Rhaenys realized that Vaemond was going to lose so she decided that she wouldn’t lose as well. 

With Vaemond he probably also thinks Rhaenyra is behind Laenor’s death so he knew that if he lost here, they would probably kill him to make sure he wouldn’t cause anymore future problems. I think Daemon whispering ‘say it’ was basically telling Vaemond to say what he wanted to say because he is a dead man anyway. 

I am interested to see where Myseria (?) is going to play in this upcoming battle. Her having spies in the castle is interesting but to what end. What does she want?

[aghst]

My undestanding is that GRRM toiled for years to get his books noticed and then they became big hits and then the TV show followed and he wasn't working as hard.

He was fairly old by the time the TV show came and he was enjoying the fruits of his success, taking his time to write additional books.

So maybe he didn't have quite the hunger to finish the stories or micro-managing what happened with GoT, which got critical raves and huge audience and he was busy counting his money for much else.

Then when the last season of GoT was panned, he kind of threw Benioff and Weiss under the bus but for now, he's still in a honeymoon period with the HotD show runners.  Why shouldn't he be, it means more money for him.

But he's probably done being a creative force if it means he has to actually put in the work.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I think the pig was coincidental. Joke doesnt even make sense at the moment. Honestly wish the show didnt even put that part in cuz it brings attention to something thats not even important in the grand scheme of things

I think it was important in the grand scheme of things. It was what started the fight and showed that some characters are not forgiving. The fact that Aemond is still furious about the pig joke years after riding a huge dragon says something about Aemond and possible conflict in the future.

Re: the prophecy, I think GRRM could have an ending a mind that was a lot like the facts of the GoT ending without it being that ending. They could have followed his basic ideas but if we were reading the books it might come across as very different. Plus, prophecies always come with a catch so can play out differently than they seem. The motivations are important whether or not we're going to see this stuff happen in this series. People messing up their lives to make prophecies come true is dramatically fine. It's *more* the point than how the prophecy plays out--look at MacBeth. 

[jeansheridan]

7 hours ago, Oscirus said:

So when the author himself says that nonsense that happened in season 8 was not his message, we should just tell him to stfu and stop lying cuz it was indeed his message since he has a producers credit, got it.

Sure. He took the money, as a producer too, not as the creator of these books being adapted. Lots of authors have zero say in movies based on their books. Martin was involved. He actively put his name on it. 

But he can certainly alter the plot in the future books if he ever gets to them. He is in full control of that story and I expect what happened in Season 8 will make more sense .

[rhygirl720]

Daemon, taking f*** around and find out to a whole new level,

That scene with his nephew Aemond..like meets like and recognize! Great scene.

[Lady Whistleup]

55 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Helaena meant that Aegon mostly ignores her until he gets in his cups. His raping her is where their children came from.  Those bags under his eyes indicate strong alcoholism. I wonder if she would be abused so if Alicent chose Aemond to be her husband.

Also Baela and Rhaena much prefer their cousins and appear happy to be with Rhaenyra's sons.  Aegon better not go after Baela; Jacerys would have to kill his rapey uncle. 

Alicent is some mother, allowing her daughter to be abused and raped by her psychotic son. 

[Lady S.]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

I don't know why Rhaenys wouldn't have taken Rhaenyra up on her offer. Marrying Rhaena and Baela (they do know there other letters in the alphabet, right?) would honor Corlys' wishes and keep the Valaryon bloodline with their children. 

Besides the Laenor issue, I think her other point was that it really didn't matter so long as Otto and Alicent made the judgement. "They'll force you to your knees, and I must stand alone." Once Viserys made his surprise appearence she was pretty happy to accept the proposal.

Aemond is really shaping up to be the green Daemon by making an inappropriate toast about his sibling's heir(s). Though Daemon did so about a dead baby in (what he thought) was a private party, not a family dinner. Funny how all the troublesome younger brothers have Aemon as part of their names, Daemon, Aemond and Vaemond. People actually named Aemon must just be different if Maester Aemon is anything to go by. 

I think this was the first ep without a sighting of any literal dragons. Even worse, it was the first since eps 1-2 without Larys. Which I guess makes sense as the Rhaenicent rapprochement couldn't happen except in his absence. Rhaenicent had to die so Larycent might be born, just as Larycent had to be apart for Rhaenicent to make up for just a few minutes.

Updated for 1.08.

[bunnyblue]

58 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Helaena meant that Aegon mostly ignores her until he gets in his cups. His raping her is where their children came from.  Those bags under his eyes indicate strong alcoholism. I wonder if she would be abused so if Alicent chose Aemond to be her husband.

It makes me so sad for Helaena to think that Aegon rapes her as well. I figured Aegon & Helaena's sex life was akin to that of Viserys & young Alicent's; very unpleasant for the wife - a duty. But I guess the line about Aegon only paying her any attention when he's drunk implies there is violence in their "couplings". And I don't know if Aemond would make a better husband - he's got his own anger issues from the looks of it. Heleana would have been better off marrying Jace like Rhaenyra proposed. 

1 hour ago, ybrik said:

Rhaenys realized that Vaemond was going to lose so she decided that she wouldn’t lose as well. 

Okay, that clears up my earlier confusion as to why Rhaenys sided with Rhaenyra last minute. 

So let's see if I got this right: everyone went to court assuming Viserys would not attend and Otto would decide the Driftmark issue. Vaemond made a deal with Alicent & Otto to get control; Rhaenyra was there to fight for her son, Lucerys; and Rhaenys was there to petition for Baela to get Driftmark. But when Viserys showed up everyone knew he would side with Rhaenyra, Rhaenys realized Baela would not get Driftmark, and so she agreed to Rhaenyra's earlier proposal. All this fighting over stupid thrones makes my head spin.

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, bunnyblue said:

It makes me so sad for Helaena to think that Aegon rapes her as well. I figured Aegon & Helaena's sex life was akin to that of Viserys & young Alicent's; very unpleasant for the wife - a duty. But I guess the line about Aegon only paying her any attention when he's drunk implies there is violence in their "couplings". And I don't know if Aemond would make a better husband - he's got his own anger issues from the looks of it. Heleana would have been better off marrying Jace like Rhaenyra proposed. 

Okay, that clears up my earlier confusion as to why Rhaenys sided with Rhaenyra last minute. 

So let's see if I got this right: everyone went to court assuming Viserys would not attend and Otto would decide the Driftmark issue. Vaemond made a deal with Alicent & Otto to get control; Rhaenyra was there to fight for her son, Lucerys; and Rhaenys was there to petition for Baela to get Driftmark. But when Viserys showed up everyone knew he would side with Rhaenyra, Rhaenys realized Baela would not get Driftmark, and so she agreed to Rhaenyra's earlier proposal. All this fighting over stupid thrones makes my head spin.

You’ve got it right. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

23 hours ago, DigitalCount said:

Quick note: the symbolism of Viserys's face being withered by disease on the Queen's side where Alicent and Otto were was simply perfect for at least two reasons: he didn't allow himself to see their machinations, and the rot came from them.

From my perspective, Rhae is at least as guilty of manipulating the king, causing him to turn a blind eye, and causing rot in the kingdom,  if not more so.

Just about everything Ali/Otto have done explicitly could be looked at IMO as self-interested as well as in the interest of the realm.

Yes, the Hightowers gained power by Otto being Hand. But it seems like Otto's advice served the King well before he got fired, and we haven't really seen signs that he served Viserys poorly after his return. Yes, they kept Viserys doped up on milk of the poppy, which allowed them to rule uncontested. But was it out of malice/selfishness, or was it because they didn't want someone on death's door to suffer needlessly?.

Meanwhile, Viserys has been forced to turn a blind eye to Rhae having committed the (by Westerosi standards) treason of having illegitimate heirs that she is passing off as legitimate and to the fact that by putting naming a woman as heir he has divided the realm, as now even Rhae confirms. It's Rhae's corruption of things that has now led to Vaemond being killed for speaking out as to the truth and setting the stage for war.

21 hours ago, Avabelle said:

The show attempting to legitimise Alicents motivations as anything other than selfishness, hate and power hungry continue to fall flat. Really? She’s gone back to wanting to take the throne because of thr in-cohesive words of a dying man? Sure show. I wish she’d just own her actions. By not owning them she just comes off as even more frustrating.

I don't know. I think a deathbed statement is a pretty compelling motivation. And I also don't have a problem with a character having multiple motivations for acting. In Alicent's case, I don't see her motivations as selfishness and hate, per se. Or at least, I don't see where those are established in the show (not the book, which I'm unfamiliar with) through concrete actions/statements/scenes as her motivation.

I can point to a few specific things that have been said/done/shown as potential motivations till now:

1. Jealousy/envy/spoiled friendship/unrequited romance/lust: the show has gone out of its way to contrast the Viserys/Aemma relationship and the Viserys/Ali relationship, the Viserys/Rhae relationship with both the Viserys/Ali and the Otto/Ali relationship and that she's upset that Rhae lied to her and did the dirty deed with Criston.

2. Religious fervor/self-righteousness. This episode we see that Ali has become (or at least pretends to be) pretty devout, sticking seven-pointed stars everywhere she can. Meanwhile, it's pretty clear that Rhae doesn't particularly care about the Seven or morality outside of "I want what I want when I want it." (Or at least, I don't think it has been shown that she actually wants what's best for the realm or anyone in it beyond the small circle of people she cares about, Viserys, Daemon, Laenor, her children and...that's about it)

3. Ali is scared for her kids. Otto has told her that Rhae is inevitably going to have to kill Aegon and co to reign secure. She saw that Aemond could get maimed without any repercussions on Rhae's kids whatsoever. 

 4. Now the mistaken impression that Viserys changed his mind on his deathbed and wants Aegon to rule.

20 hours ago, Roseanna said:

No, it was the simple truth at that kind of society and age.

A woman accusing a man for raping her must have people who testify that they hear her to cry and/or saw her clothes were torn. A servant had no chance against her master, still less a prince. Alicent showed kindness towards the girl that was really rare.    

It was another matter if the offer was a lady who had a powerful family as the rape was considered a crime not against the woman herself but against her father or husband.     

It's an unfortunate truth in many cases even now in our more enlightened society that many would immediately take the word of a rich man over a lower-class woman, or just about any man over any woman absent independent witnesses or things like torn clothing. 

15 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

It's not really a sympathetic reason.  For years Viserys has been steadfast about wanting Rhaenyra as his heir, so a milk of the poppy aided rambling at the last moment shouldn't override all of that.  Plus as we saw this episode, there's another Aegon now, and while he might grow up to be a giant dick like his uncle, that's a hypothetical while the current version is a little punk who has shown absolutely no interest in being responsible about anything. 

That Viserys has been steadfast for years does not eliminate the chance that he had seen the light that it was a mistaken choice once he started seeing that other light.

Especially against the backdrop of it being harder and harder for him to deny that Rhae has had some bastard kids and that installing Rhae will divide the kingdom, even by Rhae's own admission.

15 hours ago, ElizaD said:

I feel that it's a character flaw of Rhaenyra's that she's just not doing what she should be doing. The only ally we saw was the lord who first spoke to her when she was taking her baby to Alicent and she doesn't seem to be appreciating him even though he was the only one to greet her now. Young Rhaenyra was actively bad at dealing with nobles but old Rhaenyra is just passive. She's off to Dragonstone for years while Alicent gets to remake the keep and stack it with her allies. Rhaenyra has been counting on daddy to get her out of trouble and enforce her claim, but daddy's gone now.

Jace's offer to dance with Helaena may have had a bit of anti-Aegon sentiment motivating it, but it was also the courteous thing to do. He seems to have a greater sense of duty than his mother and, despite his issues with Strong inferiority, I expect he'll be the persuasive good cop to Daemon's threatening bad cop when the war forces Rhaenyra to seek allies. Hopefully season 2 will make the show's world feel bigger with two rival courts.

It will be very interesting to see the Game of Thrones in full swing. I think both sides have been too passive. 

It was more than a bit of anti-Aegon sentiment. The subtext was "You're going to hint that my future wife is going to be unsatisfied by me and can only be satisfied by you? I'll show you how to satisfy your wife." 

I am not sure it was a particularly "courteous" thing to do.

15 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Vaemond was literally too stupid to live. Was he a product of incest too? And what was with all the rush, Corlys might well live and make the whole thing a waste of time.

Exactly. There should be actual factions fighting for influence and awaiting the inevitable civil war. The world outside of King's Landing, the Stepstones and Driftmark might as well not exist in this show, it is shown that rarely. Also, why didn't Rhaenyra and Daemon try to convince Viserys to make one of them a regent or a Hand but left Alicent to rule unopposed for years?

The rush was multifaceted. 

1. Corlys might die at any time. If he dies before Vaemond gets named Lord of Driftmark through shenanigans, there might be an actual confrontation between his navy and the Targaryen dragons. I don't like Vaemond's chances.

2. Viserys might die at any time. When he does, the Hightowers are potentially no longer in a position to help Vaemond since Rhae would immediately try to take power, or attempt to. So if Vaemond wants to press his claim, it's now or never.

3. The Hightowers were hoping to use this as a salvo to say more vocally what has largely been whispered about: that the  three oldest "Velaryons" are not. So there was some urgency there after waiting some time.

4. There is a war in the Stepstones that has been going on for a while now, and that war needs an experienced admiral to replace Corlys, not some kid who knows jack about ships who just happens to have a dragon and noble-adjacent birth. Allowing Luke to take command of Driftmark and therefore most of the King's fleet would likely be a disaster for the realm, or at least it would be in Vaemond's eyes.

Right now, the in-fighting and maneuvering has been confined to a few locations. I imagine that now that Viserys is dead, it will start to spiral to other locations.

13 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

One thing that Rhaenyra has over Alicent is Rhaenyra really loves the people she loves. She loves her father, her kids, uncle/husband Daemon. All of Alicent's relationships are very mercenary and transactional. Even her relationship with her father isn't warm. 

I don't know if there's evidence that Ali doesn't love her non-Aegon children, Otto or Viserys. And even despite his being a rapist and disappointment, she quite possibly still loves Aegon.

People's milage will vary. I don't see Ali's relationship with any of the above as being simply a matter of "what's in it for me?" I see her as trying to do what she thinks is right by people in general. She on some level loved and cared for Viserys beyond what she could get out of him. Her relationship with Rhae was based on genuine affection at first, and not just "what will she provide me with?" 

I also am not sure if Rhae is any less transactional and mercenary than you're suggesting Ali is. (Not that there is anything wrong with that in this world). 

We didn't really see all that much of her relationship with Harwin, but it's fair to assume that they actually loved each other. It's also fair to assume she was just using him for sex over the years like she did with Cris but he was cool with it. 

She offered up her kids to Laena's kids as a transaction. 

The only time I can think of when she was thinking of something/someone larger than her own desires was when she brought up the notion that her situation is dividing the realm. And even that might be less about her potential concern for the realm and more about her complaining that it's a heavy burden on her to be a divider, depending on how one looks at it.

12 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

I can't remember now, did Daemon speak at all? He's at his most dangerous when he's silent.

As someone who lives in a country with a monarchy, I find very difficult to believe that the heir to the throne has been spending her time so far from King's Landing. She should have had a permanent chair in the Council and now that she's a grown-up woman, she should be the one acting as a Regent, not the Queen consort. 

If ser Cranston could kill ser Joffrey and that kid could kill the lord that was mocking him, sure as hell no one is going to stop Daemon from killing the guy who has called his wife a whore, especially if she's the heir to the throne.

Daemon did definitely whisper to Vaemond to out and out publicly call the kids bastards so Daemon can do what he did.

The time jump obscured what exactly the thinking was. It could be, to paraphrase GOT, "a queen who must say she is the queen is no true queen." It might be that she enjoyed getting busy with Daemon and raising 100 percent Targ babies, or that the whispers about her oldest three were only going to be quiet when she stayed out of court.

10 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Of course the dream predates the throne. The motivation for an action must predate the action. And if the action is unimportant, so is it's motivation.

I would also dispute that everything we've seen in both Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon is clearly the author's message based on interviews of the author and what's in the books so far, but this is the No Book Talk thread, so I'll rely on what's occurred on screen.

Viserys: Aegon foresaw the end of the world of men. 'Tis to begin with a terrible winter gusting out of the distant north...Aegon saw absolute darkness riding on those winds. And whatever dwells within will destroy the world of the living. When this Great Winter comes, Rhaenyra... all of Westeros must stand against it. And if the world of men is to survive, a Targaryen must be seated on the Iron Throne. A king or queen, strong enough to unite the realm against the cold and the dark. Aegon called his dream "The Song of Ice and Fire." House of the Dragon, S01 E01.

Almost none of that happened. Westeros didn't stand against what came out of the North, only part of Westeros did, maybe 2 of the 7 kingdoms with special guest appearances by Jaime Lannister and Yara and Theon Greyjoy; a Targaryen was wasn't on the Iron Throne; its occupant wasn't strong enough to unite the realm. It wasn't even that bad of a winter.

And despite his protestations, even Viserys didn't take the dream that seriously. Keeping Rhaenyra as his heir after having a son, and even after Rhaenyra had three children by Harwin Strong, were the most divisive actions he could have taken. Viserys's motivation for naming and keeping Rhaenyra as his heir appears to be feeling guilty over gutting his first wife Aemma like a fish, not Aegon's dream.

Even Rhaenyra acknowledged Viserys's actions were divisive.

Rhaenyra: You told me it was our duty to hold the realm united against a common foe. By naming me heir, you divided the realm.

So a lot of viewers, including myself, will wonder why the show continues to reference the prophecy when in universe characters don't take this allegedly all important prophecy seriously -- see also no clear succession law and feeble old men like Jaehaerys and Viserys not abdicating -- and the prophecy turned out in almost no way to be accurate, and only serves to remind viewers of the worst aspects of Season 8 of Game of Thrones.

tl;dr Just because it was the author's message doesn't mean it was a good idea or that it made sense.

It may be the author's intent to make a statement about prophecy and that while it is meaningless and wrong, people shape their lives because of it, so that it can become something almost self-fulfilling.

9 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

yeah but nobody knows it to be true. They suspect it, but no one has done a DNA test, Strong never acknowledged the children as his, Rhaenyra never admitted that the children aren't Laenor's. You and I know the truth but Vaemond did not. What would his defense at trial be? "c'mon just look at them.... come onnnnnnnnnnnn *stampy feet*"

Everyone, including Viserys, knows it to be true that they are not Velaryons. You do not have to have CSI: Westeros and DNA evidence to know that they look just like their biological father and not their "father," that their "father" was not a fan of dining on duck and thus was unlikely to have fathered a single child, that children of Velaryons and Targaryens tend have blond hair and these kids don't. 

Vaemond was counting on a fixed court that was run by the Hightowers. He quite possibly would have gotten one up to when he called Rhae a whore and her kids bastards. Hell, even after calling them out, it might have been possible for Otto to try to reassert some control over the situation if Daemon didn't do Daemon things and summarily execute Vaemond. After all, how much did Viserys have left in the tank after dragging himself out of bed to intervene in this case?

8 hours ago, Kath94 said:

Hasn't it been six years since the pig joke, and Aemond has had Laena's bigass dragon since then?  I wouldn't think having a roast pig set in front of him would be a problem at this point.

I'm guessing that even though Aemond's big and strong now, he doesn't like being reminded of a time when he wasn't, and when people made fun of him freely.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Nah. Both of those girls can't stand Aemond after he claimed Laena's dragon. No way will either of them willingly go to be Aemond's wife!

Since when has mutual affection or the girl's wishes been a factor? Although I would like to think that Daemon would put his foot down if this ever came up, he's acted so dissociated from his daughters that I'm constantly surprised when I remember he's their father. 

40 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Alicent is some mother, allowing her daughter to be abused and raped by her psychotic son. 

^

11 minutes ago, bunnyblue said:

It makes me so sad for Helaena to think that Aegon rapes her as well. I figured Aegon & Helaena's sex life was akin to that of Viserys & young Alicent's; very unpleasant for the wife - a duty. But I guess the line about Aegon only paying her any attention when he's drunk implies there is violence in their "couplings". And I don't know if Aemond would make a better husband - he's got his own anger issues from the looks of it. Heleana would have been better off marrying Jace like Rhaenyra proposed. 

This though. Jace was obviously the best choice but I still maintain that Aemond would have been better than Aegon. In episode 7, he spoke up for Helena and told Aegon to be kind to her. Maybe Vhagar imprinted on him or something, because his personality did a 180 the moment he got off that dragon.

I'm sure watching Jace the "bastard" and Helena dance together and seeing her daughter actually be happy for 5 minutes made Alicent realize what a horrible mistake she made.

By the way, this is another way that Alicent isn't a Cersei expy. Cersei loved her children, and fought to protect her daughter from exactly this kind of toxic, abusive marriage contract. Alicent married her daughter off to a horrible boy to score political capital and to get one over Rhaenyra. 

Also this is why the argument that the Greens are anti-Targaryen, anti-Valyrian, and are trying to sneakishly make Westeros great again is far off the mark. Alicent's entire "campaign" is that her children are more Targaryen than Rhaenyra's. They look more Targaryen and they act more Targaryen, right down to the brother-sister incest. She cared so little about her daughter's feelings that she married her to Aegon who was already giving all the warning signs 6 years ago. Just to prove a point. 

[snickers]

2 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

I'm curious to see who (if anyone) defects from the Greens and joins Rhaenyra's side, because as it stands the Greens have far more power and allies than the Blacks.

Right now all I can think of is that Lord Caswell (and they probably won't even make it out of King's landing next week)

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I was happy Viserys died thinking his family made up, then he ruined it all with his last words.

I feel we gotta give Viserys a pass here....the guy was a walking corpse....even old people today when about to die think are talking to someone else.....it was just good timing for the Greens, bad timing for Rhae/the blacks, plus Alicent is "religious" now, I truly believe she will think she is "doing right" by Viserys by following through on his "deathbed wish"

Rhae should have sent Daemon back to Dragonstone, no way she should have left Viserys alone with them, but then again, had that happened, we wouldn't have a story

1 hour ago, jeansheridan said:

But he can certainly alter the plot in the future books if he ever gets to them. He is in full control of that story and I expect what happened in Season 8 will make more sense .

I believe he has already said (years ago at this point now 😐) that the end of the story will be different than the garbage we got

1 hour ago, aghst said:

Then when the last season of GoT was panned, he kind of threw Benioff and Weiss under the bus

Those two deserved to get thrown under the bus....HBO wanted 10 episodes each for those final 2 seasons, those two were the ones that were like, "peace out" we want to do other stuff...which i believe now that they are blacklisted they aren't doing much of anything these days

Plus I think heard HBO has altered the show runners contracts now after that mess, notice how Sapochak is already out (as the main person) LOL

31 minutes ago, bunnyblue said:

All this fighting over stupid thrones makes my head spin.

Well, they don't call it "Game of thrones" for nothing 😆

Edited October 11, 2022 by snickers

[Stardancer Supreme]

15 minutes ago, ursula said:

Since when has mutual affection or the girl's wishes been a factor? Although I would like to think that Daemon would put his foot down if this ever came up, he's acted so dissociated from his daughters that I'm constantly surprised when I remember he's their father. 

It is only a factor because Daemon isn't using his daughters as chess pieces in these political games. He respected Laena, and allowed Baela to remain with her grandmother in Driftmark when he could have easily kept her at Dragonstone with him and Rhaena. Daemon knows of the enmity between his daughters and Aemond because of Vhagar.  I feel that the fact that the girls were able to show their happiness/relief at being betrothed to Rhaenyra's sons shows how their father wouldn't stand in the way of what is right for them.

[The Kings Foot]

14 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

It seems a particular failing of this genre- names way too similar that could easily have been made more distinguishable. We get Aemon/Aemond/Aegon and Rhaenys/Rhaenyra nonsense just like the Arwyn/Eowyn and Sauron/Saruman ridiculosity.

Why must they make it so difficult?

Because it is difficult and seems intentionally so.

In a lot of medieval history the people have the same first name.. But historians get around that by using their titles or surnames. So  a historian of the War of the Roses might talk about the Earl of Richmond, the Duke of Buckingham and the Earl of Northumberland without confusing you by calling all  three by their first name Henry. 

13 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Only barbarians act in that way - without the sentence of the court and even without the King's explicit execution order. But of course they are all barbarians, Daemon most of all. So it doesn't really matter who wins.

Well it is a failing of GRRM that he wants to create a Late medieval society but he forgot  that even medieval Kings had courts.  Often multiple and competing courts 

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

There was no trial - that is a sign of a tyrant. 

Dragons. 

8 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Yep.  These people need to find new names.  Aegon, Aemond, Daemon, Rhaenys, Rhaena, Rhaenyra, STOP IT.  At least Jace and Luc are different.

Have you taken a look at how many names are recycled in real life royal families ?

7 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

I get naming one of their sons Viserys, after his grandsire, but why did they name their other baby Aegon?

Aegon the Conqueror

[ursula]

15 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

It is only a factor because Daemon isn't using his daughters as chess pieces in these political games. He respected Laena, and allowed Baela to remain with her grandmother in Driftmark when he could have easily kept her at Dragonstone with him and Rhaena. Daemon knows of the enmity between his daughters and Aemond because of Vhagar.  I feel that the fact that the girls were able to show their happiness/relief at being betrothed to Rhaenyra's sons shows how their father wouldn't stand in the way of what is right for them.

The little we’ve seen of Daemon’s relationship with his daughters doesn’t show any of this. After the fight, he was the only parent not hovering protectively around his bruised, bleeding children and just stood aloof, laughing at the whole thing. Didn’t Rhaena actually say he doesn’t care about her because she’s not a dragon rider? And you’d think he should have encouraged her to claim Vhagar as quickly as possible but no.
 

He respected Laena??? What is that based on? When he had sex on the beach that same night as her funeral, said he was “happy enough” and and remarried a few weeks later? Baela staying in Driftmark just shows more evidence of his neglect, imo. He doesn’t seem very interested in his children with Laena. She was his second choice and sadly, it seems like her children are as well. 

The fact that Rhaenyra made the marriage deal with Rhaenys tells just how much or rather how little he’s involved or interested in their lives. I’ll believe Daemon was happy for Rhaenyra’s sons before I believe he even cares or knows what his daughters felt about the engagement. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by ursula

[Stardancer Supreme]

4 minutes ago, ursula said:

The little we’ve seen of Daemon’s relationship with his daughters doesn’t show any of this. After the fight, he was the only parent not hovering protectively around his bruised, bleeding children and just stood aloof, laughing at the whole thing. Didn’t Rhaena actually say he doesn’t care about her because she’s not a dragon rider? And you’d think he should have encouraged her to claim Vhagar as quickly as possible but no.
 

He respected Laena??? What is that based on? When he laughed at her funeral, had sex on the beach that same night and and remarried a few weeks later? Baela staying in Driftmark just shows more evidence of his neglect, imo. He doesn’t seem very interested in his children with Laena. She was his second choice and sadly, it seems like her children are as well. 

There has to be some level of caring; Rhaena chose to stay at Dragonstone with her father, cousins, new stepmother, and 2 new half siblings with another one currently baking. Baela chose to warn her father about Vaemond's petition so they could beat him to King's Landing. If Daemon was truly neglectful, neither of his daughters would want to be around him or be bothered with him..

[dramachick]

47 minutes ago, snickers said:

Those two deserved to get thrown under the bus....HBO wanted 10 episodes each for those final 2 seasons, those two were the ones that were like, "peace out" we want to do other stuff...which i believe now that they are blacklisted they aren't doing much of anything these days

Benioff and Weiss are not blacklisted. They're A-list writers, and they've got a big deal with Netflix.

Edited October 11, 2022 by dramachick

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Alicent is some mother, allowing her daughter to be abused and raped by her psychotic son. 

No after-rape tea for Helaena!

7 minutes ago, dramachick said:

LOL! Benioff and Weiss are not blacklisted. They're A-list writers, and they've got a big deal with Netflix.

I don't know what all happened behind the scenes, but it was satisfying when they gave that big interview about doing GoT that was basically, "Yeah, we didn't know what we were doing but they gave us the job anyway, isn't that great?" and HBO thank goodness thought better of letting them do their "What if the South won the Civil War like for real this time?" show. And then weren't doing Star Wars. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

There has to be some level of caring; Rhaena chose to stay at Dragonstone with her father, cousins, new stepmother, and 2 new half siblings with another one currently baking. Baela chose to warn her father about Vaemond's petition so they could beat him to King's Landing. If Daemon was truly neglectful, neither of his daughters would want to be around him or be bothered with him..

1. Who says Rhaena "chose" to stay at Dragonstone, rather than being told to? Or that Baela had much choice in the matter of where she was? From what we know of this world, neither would have had much say in their fate.

2. Let's assume for discussion's sake that both Rhaena and Baela are where they are because of their own choice. That doesn't automatically translate into Daemon caring about them and wanting what's best for them. Their freedom could be the result of, among other things, Rhaena caring about them regardless of how Daemon feels about them , the very product of Daemon being indifferent about what they are doing that he lets them do what they want, or happy coincidence that what they want and what he wants are in sync. 

3. Baela choosing to warn Daemon and Rhae about what Vaemond was plotting could be a reflection of any number of feelings that Baela has toward Daemon and/or Rhae. But it doesn't necessarily reflect how Daemon felt about or treated Baela.  It could be that Baela felt obligated to tell them what Vaemond was doing out of love and gratitude toward Daemon, toward Rhae, to both of them, out of self-interest, because she had been neglected by Daemon and was desperately trying to win his favor, or any number of possibilities. 

The show simply does not IMO give us enough info one way or another to say whether Daemon is a neglectful dad or not towards his first two kids.

[ursula]

14 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

There has to be some level of caring; Rhaena chose to stay at Dragonstone with her father, cousins, new stepmother, and 2 new half siblings with another one currently baking. Baela chose to warn her father about Vaemond's petition so they could beat him to King's Landing. If Daemon was truly neglectful, neither of his daughters would want to be around him or be bothered with him..

This is Westeros. Unmarried girls (and even married ones - see Alicent) don’t have a lot of agency and can’t choose to be around or not bothered by their parents. 

Baela sending that note to Daemon while we’ve seen no evidence of him being particularly caring towards her just means their relationship is one-sided. Sadly the more neglectful a parent is, the more likely the child will be desperate for scrapes of their attention.
 

To be clear, because I think I’ve hit a nerve here… I’m not bashing Daemon. Just pointing out what I’ve observed. By Westeros standards, being neglectful is not even “bad” as fathers go. 

2 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

1. Who says Rhaena "chose" to stay at Dragonstone, rather than being told to? Or that Baela had much choice in the matter of where she was? From what we know of this world, neither would have had much say in their fate.

2. Let's assume for discussion's sake that both Rhaena and Baela are where they are because of their own choice. That doesn't automatically translate into Daemon caring about them and wanting what's best for them. Their freedom could be the result of, among other things, Rhaena caring about them regardless of how Daemon feels about them , the very product of Daemon being indifferent about what they are doing that he lets them do what they want, or happy coincidence that what they want and what he wants are in sync. 

3. Baela choosing to warn Daemon and Rhae about what Vaemond was plotting could be a reflection of any number of feelings that Baela has toward Daemon and/or Rhae. But it doesn't necessarily reflect how Daemon felt about or treated Baela.  It could be that Baela felt obligated to tell them what Vaemond was doing out of love and gratitude toward Daemon, toward Rhae, to both of them, out of self-interest, because she had been neglected by Daemon and was desperately trying to win his favor, or any number of possibilities. 

The show simply does not IMO give us enough info one way or another to say whether Daemon is a neglectful dad or not towards his first two kids.

Damn. It’s like you’re in my head but more articulate.

[Oscirus]

Caring or family loyalty?

They'd likely do what rhaenyss wants regardless of whether or not Baela wanted it. 

That being said, Aemond is greens only valuable piece ( can marry for an alliance), I doubt they'd waste their time trying to marry Aemond to either girl since neither side would get anything out of that arrangement.

[Lady S.]

8 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

As magnificent as she is, Rhaenys is not a Velaryon.  She's a Targaryen.  Vaemond cared about bloodlines.  Who knows if he had kids, though.  Too late now.

That was honestly the most ridiculous part of his rant about bloodlines and the survival of his house when he never mentioned a wife and kids of his own. Then there's the more obvious fact that Baela and Rhaena very much do have Velaryon blood and so would their kids. So how exactly would their bloodline die out if they married Rhaenyra's bastards? And daughters would come before younger brothers and their lines, else Rhaenys wouldn't have had a claim to the throne and wouldn't be known as the Queen Who Never Was. I think Vaemond's lack of respect for Laena's line was already shown when he used her eulogy to call Laenor a cuckold. (Hence Daemon's giggling, because he's supposed to be the one with inappropriate reactions to relatives' deaths.) Obviously he's right about Luke's paternity, but I think his claim of not acting out ambition, only concern for his bloodline is clearly not true.

Especially since Corlys was not dead yet, and there was no reason this couldn't wait until he actually was. This man was not only counting on his brother's death, he was hoping for it.

8 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

They're not actually first cousins.  They're related through Rhaenys since she and Viserys were first cousins, but Rhaenyra's sons and Rhaeny's granddaughters are second cousins, I think.

Rhaenyra and Laena were second cousins. Their kids would be third cousins (triple third cousins I guess, since there are three sibling great-grandparents involved?) They're also first cousins once-removed through Daemon, the uncle who is now the boys' stepdad. Lotta, lotta incest going on in this family.

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't know if there's evidence that Ali doesn't love her non-Aegon children, Otto or Viserys. And even despite his being a rapist and disappointment, she quite possibly still loves Aegon.

People's milage will vary. I don't see Ali's relationship with any of the above as being simply a matter of "what's in it for me?" I see her as trying to do what she thinks is right by people in general. She on some level loved and cared for Viserys beyond what she could get out of him. Her relationship with Rhae was based on genuine affection at first, and not just "what will she provide me with?" 

Agreed, though I'm also unsure why lack of warmth toward Otto should be on par with lack of warmth with children. In any case, her goodbye scene with Otto in 1.05 actually was emotional on both sides. As much as I criticize Otto for starting this mess, I don't think he's Tywin in either Magnificient Bastard-ness or Cold-Hearted Father-ness. He uses his daughter selfishly but that doesn't mean he doesn't care about his kids at all. He's just a more typical Westerosi father than Viserys, one who would never think to prioritize his children's happiness above political concerns and one who would never just say "I love you" to them. I've never doubted that Ali loves her father, whether he deserves undying loyalty or not. The obvious reason she obeyed Otto when he sent him to woo Viserys is because children have a duty to obey their fathers, but emotionally I think she also wanted to make her father proud.

Aside from politics and pragmatic concerns, I think Alicent wants Aegon to make her sacrifices worth something. Losing her friendship with Rhaenyra and being broodmare to a rotting old man can't all have been for nothing. She did her part for Otto so Aegon has to do his. I also wonder if part of her disconnection/resentment toward pre-rapist Aegon was because he is the living embodiment of why she can never be friends with Rhaenyra again. Rhaenyra was willing to be friends again in ep 4, so who knows how things would have turned out if Alicent had only daughters. I feel like like that's something Alicent could have wondered about a lot. Even in ep 3, Rhaenyra's brattiness is directed more toward Viserys than Alicent and seems to be based more on all the attention for Aegon rather than the marriage itself. Regardless, one can dislike family members and not feel much warmth toward them and still feel like you love them because you have to. At the dinner, Alicent was ready to make peace with Rhaenyra because she was fed up with Aegon (if ever there were a time to be willing to send your son to the Night's Watch, that would be it) and Aemond was also acting the fool, and because her hatred for Rhaenyra is all tied up with their former love. (Their childhood friendship may have been the purest relationship she had aside from her own mother, and the only real friend she's made since is Larys.) But really it was too late for any true peace, and this conflict is much bigger than the personal wishes of either woman. 

When she hears her husband's drugged-up ramblings she forgets about her feelings about Aegon and hears only what she wants to hear. But it's what she wants not because she's always wanted power but because Otto set her on this path. If Rhaenyra takes the throne, Alicent's sons and grandson(s) would be in jeopardy and she'd have to accept that her entire miserable marriage and all the disrespect she endured from Viserys was pointless. The idea that Rhaenyra not only gets to have more fun, but that her own life has no reward even after Viserys's death could be maddening.

32 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

No after-rape tea for Helaena!

Just like there wasn't for Alicent herself. Plan T should only be used to prevent any bastards. I'm sure the gods would approve of its use for that, right? ;)

Speaking of which, I haven't been through all 5 pages, but did everyone catch that this clearly wasn't Aegon's first victim? I don't just mean Alicent yelling at him that "he couldn't keep carrying on this way", but her complete lack of shock and how she had that veiled threat + payoff + tea routine down pat. She had to have ordered that Plan T before the girl even opened her mouth since the other servant was out of the room and returned as soon as the convo was all but done.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Lady S.

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, bunnyblue said:

It makes me so sad for Helaena to think that Aegon rapes her as well. I figured Aegon & Helaena's sex life was akin to that of Viserys & young Alicent's; very unpleasant for the wife - a duty. But I guess the line about Aegon only paying her any attention when he's drunk implies there is violence in their "couplings". And I don't know if Aemond would make a better husband - he's got his own anger issues from the looks of it. Heleana would have been better off marrying Jace like Rhaenyra proposed. 

Helena basically has the mind of a child, I doubt shed be better off marrying anybody. That being said theres been nothing that indicates that aemond's anger issues are so bad that hed take them out on his wife. The fact that he talked with reverence of her with his brother, tells me hed respect her.

[snickers]

33 minutes ago, dramachick said:

Benioff and Weiss are not blacklisted. They're A-list writers, and they've got a big deal with Netflix.

I remember hearing about the Netflix gig but I thought that got dropped just like the Star Wars gig? If that’s not being blacklisted what is 😆 plus isn’t Netflix dropping projects left and right due to budget/the fact they spend more than they bring in 🙄and they dropped the ball being A+ writers by season 7 😉became D+ by season finale.

Edited October 11, 2022 by snickers

[Oscirus]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think it was important in the grand scheme of things. It was what started the fight and showed that some characters are not forgiving. The fact that Aemond is still furious about the pig joke years after riding a huge dragon says something about Aemond and possible conflict in the future.

Im not sure if showing that he holds a grudge was worth it to have people concentrating on who put the pig in front of him. Especially when previous scenes already established him as the biggest threat on the green side. 

I'll withhold further judgement pending the outcome of future meetings with the strong boys, (especially Luke).

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Im not sure if showing that he holds a grudge was worth it to have people concentrating on who put the pig in front of him. Especially when previous scenes already established him as the biggest threat on the green side. 

I'll withhold further judgement pending the outcome of future meetings with the strong boys, (especially Luke).

I don't think most people were wondering who put the pig in front of him. It was just part of the dinner--it was Luke's laugh that made it a call-back, not the pig itself. He's probably eaten plenty of pig since that day.

[paigow]

Aemond v Daemon: Modernized as these guys...

[snickers]

18 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Speaking of which, I haven't been through all 5 pages, but did everyone catch that this clearly wasn't Aegon's first victim? I don't just mean Alicent yelling at him that "he couldn't keep carrying on this way", but her complete lack of shock and how she had that veiled threat + payoff + tea routine down pat. She had to have ordered that Plan T before the girl even opened her mouth since the other servant was out of the room and returned as soon as the convo was all but done.

Yeah I think they’ve set up since we’ve seen teen aegon he likes the ladies plus ….

Spoiler

from the next weeks preview looks like larys found a bastard son 

[Oscirus]

Can we talk about how most of these parents suck at training.

viserys was bad at it.

Jace just now learning Valarian doesn't speak well for Rhaenyra as does Lukes lack of driftmark training.  I guess Baela got  some training but that speaks more of Rhaenys then it does her parents.

Lets not even get started on Alicent, other than Aemond who seems to have been motivated to get himself some training, her kids have just been left to their own devices. 

[dramachick]

9 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't know what all happened behind the scenes, but it was satisfying when they gave that big interview about doing GoT that was basically, "Yeah, we didn't know what we were doing but they gave us the job anyway, isn't that great?" and HBO thank goodness thought better of letting them do their "What if the South won the Civil War like for real this time?" show. And then weren't doing Star Wars. 

That slavery show was a horrible idea that Black people put a stop to. Unfortunately, that kind of situation is not unusual in Hollywood although that idea was EXCEPTIONALLY bad.

D&D didn't need to know a lot in the beginning because George R.R. Martin had decades of experience writing for television and knew the industry inside-out along with HBO executives who knew how to produce hit shows. It has been a win-win-win situation for everybody regardless of any dissatisfaction some fans may have had at the end. GOT has made SO. MUCH. MONEY that Benioff and Weiss will always have projects in the works if they so choose because they have that "created by" credit.

I'm interested in whether Kit Harrington's project gets the green light because I want to know what happens to Jon Snow! I'm so glad he had the Stark genetics working against those genes passed down from Viserys and the other crazy Targaryens. 

[LadyChaos]

Finally able to watch....man...idk how anyone can think Alicent is still in the right after she has been clearly covering for her son being a serial rapist and shaming and buying off his victims.

That feast was something else. Loved Haelena's speech... He mostly just ignores you, unless he's drunk.

The actor, Paddy Considine, deserves an award.

[dramachick]

22 minutes ago, snickers said:

56 minutes ago, dramachick said:

Benioff and Weiss are not blacklisted. They're A-list writers, and they've got a big deal with Netflix.

I remember hearing about the Netflix gig but I thought that got dropped just like the Star Wars gig? If that’s not being blacklisted what is 😆 plus isn’t Netflix dropping projects left and right due to budget/the fact they spend more than they bring in 🙄and they dropped the ball being A+ writers by season 7 😉became D+ by season finale.

Netflix is shady AF! D&D left the Star Wars gig because Netflix offered them a deal worth crazy money. They produced "The Chair" on Netflix and have another show that's in post-production for 2023.

43 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The show simply does not IMO give us enough info one way or another to say whether Daemon is a neglectful dad or not towards his first two kids.

I don't understand why they've under-written Daemon's relationship with his daughters. It would make him multidimensional and less cartoonish to me. Just being an agent of chaos gets old after a while if he's supposed to be a main character.

[Lady S.]

21 hours ago, DigitalCount said:

Quick note: the symbolism of Viserys's face being withered by disease on the Queen's side where Alicent and Otto were was simply perfect for at least two reasons: he didn't allow himself to see their machinations, and the rot came from them.

Yeah, he couldn't see who she was sitting on his blind side, even if he wasn't doped out of his head, and she was blind to his true meaning with zero context for any of his words.

I also saw it pointed out in a vid how Viserys and Alicent have now switched places. She's not sitting on the Iron Throne, but she was sitting in the king's seat in the small council. All while Viserys is confined to the same bed where he used her as broodmare, which was her only real role until his health really started going to shit.

I also see that someone else has noted that both grown-up Aemond and Helaena came from The Last Kingdom. Fitting since we're now at the point where Alicent is a grandma and Olivia Cooke is only a couple years older than the actors playing her kids, just as the actress who played Aelswith on TLK was the exact same age as the actress who played her daughter Aethelflaed.

Other people have already brought up that prophecies don't have to be true or interpereted correctly to be thematically important. Just think of how Melisandre kept reinterpereting who the messiah was and originally staked everything on it being fucking Stannis of all people. As an enjoyer of tragedy and dramatic irony, I'm onboard with it now tbh.

Just think if Rhaenyra hadn't felt the need to bring her kids back home right away, she could have been there to finish that conversation with her father.

In honer of Rhaenyra/Daemon's son Aegon the Younger, I'd like to bring back this legendary tweet circa the reveal of Jon Snow's birth name (with Rhaegar's actor appearing to wear the exact same wig that Harry Lloyd used).

While this baby Aegon is certainly officially named for the Conqueror, it's also a subtle dig at Alicent/Otto to reuse the name so soon. I can see Daemon having the idea and thinking it very funny. Like you think you have a conqueror-babe? Ours is actually a Targ on both sides born of a true Valyrian union, not born to some Hightower girl pious in a Faith which doesn't even really approve of incest. For all the talk about Rhaenyra's plain-featured heirs, her sons by Daemon are unquestionably pure Valyrian and both are named after kings. (Still it is less confusing than many real history books where there are only like 5 old-timey male names in any given era.)

[LoveIsJoy]

I’m one who is constantly confused by the similarity of characters’ names. Part of the issue for me is being unfamiliar with the actors’ accents (and they speak rapidly and mumbly sometimes), so it all begins to sound the same to my ears.  

While watching the show I kept “hearing” Vaemond as Daemon, and thought they both had the same name until I read some posts here.  Also, do both Allicent and Rhaenyra have sons named Aegon, or did I mishear that as well?

Another thing I missed— why was setting the roast pig in front of Aemond considered a horrible joke?   I got the “Strong “ reference during the toast, but didn’t get the pig joke.

Overall, I’m enjoying the show, but am feeling old.  Like I need a hearing aid and a cheat sheet to keep up.  I’m grateful for the Behind the scenes explanations after each episode.  And this forum, of course. 😉

[RobertDeSneero]

5 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Alicent realizes that her cruel sons would make poor rulers. But she's too power-hungry and also too rigid in her thinking to accept Rhaenyra as an heir.

I think she can accept Rhaenyra as heir.  What she cannot abide by in any way is Jace as Rhaenyra's heir.

5 hours ago, nikma said:

Showrunners of GoT had long meetings with GRRM where they've discussed the future of the story and that was confirmed by all sides including GRRM himself, who said just before S8 aired that the show's ending won't be that different from his and that it's based on his ideas from 20 years ago.

Only when the ending became controversial he tried to distance himself from it. Which is really shitty behavior on many levels, especially when you consider that he is not capable of finishing even penultimate book, let alone the whole thing.

I'm absolutely certain his plan for the ending was a Dany heel turn out of nowhere after a defeat of the White Walkers, with Jon ending up having to go against her.  Was there a way to do the last season in a way that pleased fans while keeping that key element?

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, LadyChaos said:

Finally able to watch....man...idk how anyone can think Alicent is still in the right after she has been clearly covering for her son being a serial rapist and shaming and buying off his victims.

In House of the Dragon even moreso than Game of Thrones, there doesn't appear to be any person or faction who is "in the right" per se...at least not in my book. Everyone of the characters has some ethical lapse or flaw, pretty much. 

As for Ali covering up her son's rapes, obviously it is troubling and her proclamation that he is no son of hers is far too little far too late.

That said, what are her options realistically from her Westerosi standpoint?

She can't have him stand trial, or take the black, or stop him raping servants. He is a prince of the realm, the firstborn son of the king, and, as a Targaryen on top, he has been bred to believe he can do whatever he wants without consequence. 

What Aegon did would not be considered rape in the same way we would consider it. (And again, even in our society, many would bury their heads in the sand about what occurred).

Compare how she reacted to, say, Cersei enabling Joffrey as to straight-up murder and the notion that again he can do whatever he wants. 

It's possible to look at her compassion as fake and really just wanting to shield Aegon from the consequences of his crimes. It's also possible to see her as frustrated and powerless in the face of them and showing true compassion to Aegon's victims. I lean towards the latter, particularly in the wake of her blowing up at him in private.

2 minutes ago, LoveIsJoy said:

Another thing I missed— why was setting the roast pig in front of Aemond considered a horrible joke?   I got the “Strong “ reference during the toast, but didn’t get the pig joke.

Overall, I’m enjoying the show, but am feeling old.  Like I need a hearing aid and a cheat sheet to keep up.  I’m grateful for the Behind the scenes explanations after each episode.  And this forum, of course. 😉

Back when Aemond was just a kid, he got bullied and mocked for being dragonless. Aegon played that prank on him where they claimed they found a dragon just for him, and it turned out to be a pig made up like a dragon that they nicknamed "The Pink Dread" (one of the most fearsome dragons was called the Black Dread, I believe).

So when the pig was placed right in front of Aemond and Luke laughed, that triggered the memory of how Aemond was bullied back then, which caused him to lash out at the "Strong boys."

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

In a lot of medieval history the people have the same first name.. But historians get around that by using their titles or surnames. So  a historian of the War of the Roses might talk about the Earl of Richmond, the Duke of Buckingham and the Earl of Northumberland without confusing you by calling all  three by their first name Henry.

Actually it's just as confusing as people's titles change, sometimes three times. A good historian helps the reader either by saying that the duke of Somerset is now the younger brother of the previous duke who died without issue, or using the same name all the time despite changing titles (f.ex. Thomas Boleyn or Thomas Seymour).

[Roseanna]

10 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Outlawing the truth is typically considered a mark of tyranny.

Moreover the consequences were supposed to be having one's tongue cut out, not death. And since there were no consequences for Daemon, Viserys retroactively changed the law. That's the very definition of tyranny since no one can know whether they're committing a crime or what the penalty will be if one or the other is changed after the fact. That's why the US Constitution prohibits ex post facto law.

Tyrion: It's not slander if it's true. Game of Thrones, Valar Dohaeris (S03 E01).

That. 

It's a mistake to believe that a king could do as he pleases. Although there were some absolute monarchs (or even kings who were regarded as gods), usually a king must rule according to laws and customs (which were of course different in each country) and people (or at least aristocracy) must regard his rule as just.      

[Roseanna]

On 10/10/2022 at 6:25 AM, Lady Whistleup said:

I've always thought Alicent was in love with Rhaenyra and the way she grabbed Rhaenyra's hand towards the end of the family dinner confirmed that. There's hatred there but it's also a sick, twisted love.

I don't say that's impossible but it bases on the modern conception that love is the most important in life and all other relationship are of secondary value.

In the society where marriage was an alliance between familes and men and women had different spheres in life, the strongest bonds were, in addition to family ties, friendship between man and man, woman and woman. Men were dependent on their comrade-of-arms to save their lives in battles, whereas women confided to other woman about matters that concerned only women (f.ex. period, pregnancy, childbirth).

Thus, being betrayed by a friend (as Alicent has interpreted Rhaena's behavior) could hurt as much, or even more, than being betrayed by a lover.  

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

The thing is that Rhaenyra wasn't just named heir 20 years ago. This decision had been challenged countless times by team Hightower and Viserys had always been adamant that his decision stood. In that way, Viserys was made of strong stuff. Like Ned Stark, he keeps his word. I also think that deep down, Alicent realizes that her cruel sons would make poor rulers. But she's too power-hungry and also too rigid in her thinking to accept Rhaenyra as an heir. The internalized misogyny is strong in Alicent.

A king who doesn't change his decision although it has bad results, or even doesn't do anything to make his decision to work, isn't strong but stubborn and foolish.

When Viserys named Rhaenyra his heir, she was his only child but there was a rival claimant, Daemon. A wise king would made these two wed and, because they liked and lusted each other, there wouldn't be any children whose legitimacy is now questioned. 

Also, a strong king who would have wanted his decision to work wouldn't have remarried or, if remarried, had begotten no children (as we now, it was possible to prevent pregnancy and he could have sex with other women) as Rhaenyra's rivals.

And finally, a just king would never allowed bastards to inherit the crown because in this kind of society it's simply wrong. If a king doesn't act justly, why would other people do it?   

[cambridgeguy]

5 hours ago, dramachick said:

I don't understand why they've under-written Daemon's relationship with his daughters. It would make him multidimensional and less cartoonish to me. Just being an agent of chaos gets old after a while if he's supposed to be a main character.

He's already got his dimensions down.  Unlike the other characters he has some respect and concern for the small folks (one thing Rhaenyra and Aegon would probably agree on is a complete disregard for commoners), clearly loved his brother despite everything, and so far appears to be a good husband to Rhaenyra.  Of course, anyone who hates the guy would consider all of this an act he's putting on - for example, he didn't help Viserys up the stairs out of affection, he did it solely because he needed him to rule against Vaemond.

Plus maybe it's a family trait to ignore your children.  I don't get the impression that Viserys had any sort of affection for Aegon, Aemond, and Helaena.  No long walk across the throne room for those kids.

[LoveIsJoy]

5 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Back when Aemond was just a kid, he got bullied and mocked for being dragonless. Aegon played that prank on him where they claimed they found a dragon just for him, and it turned out to be a pig made up like a dragon that they nicknamed "The Pink Dread" (one of the most fearsome dragons was called the Black Dread, I believe).

So when the pig was placed right in front of Aemond and Luke laughed, that triggered the memory of how Aemond was bullied back then, which caused him to lash out at the "Strong boys."

Thank you!!  I’d either forgotten all about that or didn’t pay it too much attention.

[jane1978]

6 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

Finally able to watch....man...idk how anyone can think Alicent is still in the right after she has been clearly covering for her son being a serial rapist and shaming and buying off his victims.

That feast was something else. Loved Haelena's speech... He mostly just ignores you, unless he's drunk.

The actor, Paddy Considine, deserves an award.

Aegon is a shit, but Otto seems a pretty competent leader and he and Alicent has ruled the kingdom for years now and it seems not so bad. So it makes sense a lot of people would want the stability to continue. Rhae has peaced out years ago to have her happily ever after with Daemon and now she just expects she can dance back in and take over? It makes very little sense. Why she even wants to be a queen? Does she have any big vision for the kingdom? Who will be her main advisors? Does she know anything about what´s currently going on, the budget, wars and other tribulation the council is dealing with?

No. She knows nothing. She could and should stay in KL after she married Daemon, attend the council meetings and be in active opposition to Otto. She should also stay because her father she supposedly loves so much got more and more ill and he would sure love to have his most beloved daughter close. But she is selfish and only thinks about herself all the time. She is like some long lost daughter who reappears on father´s dead bed and expects to inherit everything.

It´s crazy anyone even wants that position. Danny atleast had her big vision of breaking the wheel and social revolution. But even she hated the mundane daily proceedings. Alicent is still young, her king husband almost dead, she had no fun for years. She should be happy someone wants to take over so she can finally pursue her own interests. 

[Cristofle]

3 minutes ago, jane1978 said:

Aegon is a shit, but Otto seems a pretty competent leader and he and Alicent has ruled the kingdom for years now and it seems not so bad.

To quote Tyrion from the mothership, "it's hard to leash a dog when you put a crown on its head." Sure, Aegon has thus far shown zero interest in ruling. I'm not sure he even believes his mother that the throne will come to him. But give him a taste of that ultimate power? No telling what he'd do. Alicent and Otto can control the already weak-willed Viserys to some extent, especially given how ill he is, but Aegon actually ON the throne seems...catastrophically dangerous. Honestly, realistically, it'd even be dangerous to Alicent. Aegon is clearly deeply resentful of her. Is Rhaenyra prepared? No. She shows no signs of being prepared, and unlike Jon Snow who also wasn't really that prepared, I don't yet see that deep sense of duty that is an essential part of Jon. I can't promise Rhaenyra is prepared or would be a good queen, but I'm Team Anyone But the Serial Rapist at this point.