S01.E05: Partings

[paulvdb]

Episode Synopsis:

Nori questions her instincts; Elrond struggles to stay true to his oath; Halbrand weighs his destiny; The Southlanders brace for attack.

Reminder: 

There is open air book talk here. If you are just watching the TV show and you don't want to stumble into any book talk you should leave now. Book Talk assumes you have read any of the related books or stories.

[Anduin]

Elrond gave a decent summary to Durin, but it still wasn't quite everything. It'll come back to bite him, no doubt.

Numenor is the weakest plotline so far, maybe it'll pick up next ep. Halbrand isn't bad, but he's trying way too hard to be Viggo's Aragorn. Only he doesn't quite have the writing or charisma to back him up. But related, it took me a while to work out who Isildur looks like. James Callis as Gaius Baltar from Battlestar Galactica. Anyone else see that?

Ah, definition of decaravanned. Taking their wheels. Seems pretty cruel to me, I'm glad Sadoc agrees. That's one of the big differences between LOTR & GOT. It's less cruel. Even when people dislike each other, they still hold off on the rougher elements. And hey, the Stranger is talking more. Hopefully he'll soon explain his deal. Maybe in the finale.

And the episodes are getting longer. Maybe we'll have a two-hour finale. I can't see it being under 90 minutes.

[mac123x]

Durin to Elrond:  "Give me the meat, and give it to me raw".   Amazon is taking dialog from porns now.

[johntfs]

38 minutes ago, mac123x said:

Durin to Elrond:  "Give me the meat, and give it to me raw".   Amazon is taking dialog from porns now.

I liked it as Dwarven metaphor for "Get to the fucking point."

Galadrial as Elven Errol Flynn was great.

Figure the Galadrial/Halbrand smut-fics likely number in the low thousands at least at this point.

[Msample]

Am I the only one frustrated by the seemingly deliberate vagueness with regards to geography? They flash over a map showing the Harfoots migration route in like 2 seconds. The tower the southerners are sheltering in seems like what will eventually become Minas Morgul.

[cambridgeguy]

Gil-galad - Have the dwarves found the ore?

Elrond - Long speech about keeping his oath to Durin

Gil-galad - So that's obviously a yes then, because if it was a no you'd just say so.

This mithril twist will no doubt piss off book purists, but I doubt any are still watching at this point.

Edited September 23, 2022 by cambridgeguy

[Harvey]

Is Anyone else alarmed by the Cult of Morgoth being interested in The Stranger?

[Anduin]

2 hours ago, Msample said:

Am I the only one frustrated by the seemingly deliberate vagueness with regards to geography? They flash over a map showing the Harfoots migration route in like 2 seconds. The tower the southerners are sheltering in seems like what will eventually become Minas Morgul.

I agree about a map. When I rewatch, I'll get the Fonstad atlas out to work out where the Harfoots are. As for the tower, no. It's on the north side of the Mordor mountains. Minas Morgul was a proper city located in the western mountains.

42 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Is Anyone else alarmed by the Cult of Morgoth being interested in The Stranger?

Not at all. They probably want to deliver a late birthday present or something! Actually, yes. It's very suspicious behavior, that and the forming of ice. I'm starting to think he's not a good guy after all. Maybe Saruman?

[Affogato]

59 minutes ago, Anduin said:

I agree about a map. When I rewatch, I'll get the Fonstad atlas out to work out where the Harfoots are. As for the tower, no. It's on the north side of the Mordor mountains. Minas Morgul was a proper city located in the western mountains.

Not at all. They probably want to deliver a late birthday present or something! Actually, yes. It's very suspicious behavior, that and the forming of ice. I'm starting to think he's not a good guy after all. Maybe Saruman?

He seemed oddly befuddled at being called ‘good’ :-) although Saruman wasn’t initially bad. My impresdion is that is much later.
 

And Adar seemed heaitant to claim the title of ‘Sauron’, although he is clearly a fallen angel. Perhaps just reluctant to step entirely into the dark?

i think I’m saying that people may just be taking sides here. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by Affogato

[johntfs]

36 minutes ago, Anduin said:

I agree about a map. When I rewatch, I'll get the Fonstad atlas out to work out where the Harfoots are. As for the tower, no. It's on the north side of the Mordor mountains. Minas Morgul was a proper city located in the western mountains.

Not at all. They probably want to deliver a late birthday present or something! Actually, yes. It's very suspicious behavior, that and the forming of ice. I'm starting to think he's not a good guy after all. Maybe Saruman?

Saruman was actually a good guy right through the events of The Hobbit.  I still think this is Gandalf - or at least proto-Gandalf.  I don't think the Stranger is evil, but he's clearly dangerous.  Still, I recall something of a speech Gandalf made to the point "I am the most dangerous person you could meet short of being dragged in front of Sauron himself."

In terms of conscious acts, he protected the Harfoots and Nori only got hurt because she foolishly touched the guy while he was concentrating on his magic ice healing.

[Affogato]

15 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Saruman was actually a good guy right through the events of The Hobbit.  I still think this is Gandalf - or at least proto-Gandalf.  I don't think the Stranger is evil, but he's clearly dangerous.  Still, I recall something of a speech Gandalf made to the point "I am the most dangerous person you could meet short of being dragged in front of Sauron himself."

In terms of conscious acts, he protected the Harfoots and Nori only got hurt because she foolishly touched the guy while he was concentrating on his magic ice healing.

Yeah gandalf is increasingly likely. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by Affogato

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Gil-galad - Have the elves found the ore?

Elrond - Long speech about keeping his oath to Durin

Gil-galad - So that's obviously a yes then, because if it was a no you'd just say so.

This mithril twist will no doubt piss off book purists, but I doubt any are still watching at this point.

If the elves were good guys they would just return to the west. Good gravy. 

[johntfs]

6 minutes ago, Affogato said:

If the elves were good guys they would just return to the west. Good gravy. 

And abandon Middle Earth to Sauron and his orcs?  Gil-Galad clearly knows about Sauron and what's happening in the South even though he wants to keep it on the down low for now.

[tennisgurl]

So the Stranger is totally Gandolf right? I know it doesn't line up with the books backstory, but that's nothing new to the show and the purists rage quit this after the first trailer. I have just decided to look at the show as its own thing loosely based the book mythology. 

The humans sure are an easily led crowd, they went from following Bronwyn to following the old guy, or at least half of them. I did like that they focused more on these issues with the elves and humans, that elves still associate the humans with siding with the darker powers while humans find the elves holier than though pricks, it feels more in character for both groups and much more interesting than all that "they're taking our jobs" nonsense. 

I still find a lot of this show frustrating, especially its attempts to make their dialogue told Tolkien-ish, but I am still invested. It just looks so damn pretty. 

I liked them incorporating the famous "not all who wander are lost" quote into the song. Which also makes me think that the Stranger is Gandolf considering he's the one who said it.

Edited September 23, 2022 by tennisgurl

[Colorado David]

I am thinking the stranger is Gandalf as well, but I could see writers hoodwinking us with that misdirection too. Aren't there like 7 wizards according to canon?

I dont' mind snippets of songs, but I don't need to hear entire songs. Dwarf rock song, fine. Harfoot 4 minute travelling ballad, no thank you.  Just a pet peeve of mine unless I'm watching something calling itself a musical.

Man, mithril apparently is a lot more powerful than I figured it to be. If I interpret it correctly, it's basically the heart and soul of the elves? Or did I get that wrong.

Some really nice backdrops and costuming on this show - I imagine costuming alone must cost a fortune with all the extras. 
And starting to get some depth on the characters, I'm liking it.

[Jenniferbug]

Halfway through the first season and I'm still really enjoying this show and looking forward to it each week. It's not perfect, but I like it anyway.

I agree it's looking more and more likely that the Stranger is Gandalf, whether it makes sense or not. I turned on Fellowship as background noise the other day and there are some mannerisms and framing that seemed very similar. I'd still like for him to be any other wizard or Tom Bombadil or something, but each week seems to point more to Gandalf.

I'm personally hoping we haven't met Sauron yet. I know everyone thinks he'll be revealed on the show as someone we know now, but I'd prefer that he show up in the finale or early next season as a new character. I think the existing characters are more interesting if we're seeing their true selves and how they'll be manipulated by Sauron than if they turn out to be him (ex, I think Halbrand is more interesting as an Aragorn who falls and becomes one of the Nazgul).

Probably my biggest complaint is Galadriel- not because she's abrasive and unlikable but because I am really struggling to connect these younger years with what we've seen of her later. I can see enough similarity in Elrond to see/guess how he becomes the weary and jaded Elrond of the trilogy later. I can see Isuldur already being impulsive and a little grasping to see how he will make the bone headed decision to keep the ring. But Galadriel is SO single minded right now that it's very difficult for me to reconcile her with the Galadriel who, when presented with the chance to destroy the One Ring and Sauron forever, simply gives the Fellowship some cloaks and a few weapons and remains in her magical forest. She must have really mellowed in her old age, and perhaps they'll draw that line from point A to B so it makes sense, but I'm struggling to find it for myself right now. 

Gil-Galhad and Celebrimbor both seem slimy to me, which is odd because I don't think either has been characterized that way before. 

I am a bit anxious about the fates of the new characters. I'm hoping the show doesn't kill off Arondir or Durin or Disa or even Bronwyn for shock value. 

[Anduin]

7 hours ago, Affogato said:

If the elves were good guys they would just return to the west. Good gravy. 

No. Middle-earth belongs to the elves just as much as the other races. While some went to Valinor, then came back, they were still originally born at Cuiviénen. And new ones were born in Middle-earth since then. Why should they run away, rather than fight?

[MJ Frog]

Oy. The whole lightning + The Lost Silmaril (?) = mithril, which the elves need because they're "fading" all the sudden for... reasons... is the surest sign yet that the showrunners have no feel for this world. In order to squeeze drama out of a story that should have plenty built in, they veer off in this bizarre direction that would be more appropriate in the MCU.

Genre stories are rarely done well because everone thinks there's nothing to it. Comedy, horror, and fantasy in particular require writers and filmakers who really have a feel for it. Getting this stuff right is NOT easy, and capturing the spirit of Tolkien is particularly elusive. I have been patient with the show up until now, because of its legal limitations, and with the mindset that it isn't really Tolkien, but the next county over. And that's been fine. But this last episode is the first time that I really felt like I was knocked right out of the story with a sledgehammer. Oh well, signs of things to come I suppose.

The one thing I did like was the way the mithril flashback was told, with that highly stylized mix of animation and live action. These are big, operatic, moments and this kind of presentation seems a good way to infuse them with the necessary power and impact.

[Affogato]

11 minutes ago, Anduin said:

No. Middle-earth belongs to the elves just as much as the other races. While some went to Valinor, then came back, they were still originally born at Cuiviénen. And new ones were born in Middle-earth since then. Why should they run away, rather than fight?

Ok maybe that is just an initial judgmental reaction on my part. There are elves native to middle earth and of course they value their home.  And there has to be a reason why the dwarves are so pissed off at the elves.  Still it seems awkward to me. Unnecessary. Like propaganda. My impression in the books I’ve read was elves were entitled and like shiny things a d so do dwarves. Maybe I’m wrong. 
 

I think the time compression does this story no favors.  So many races and so little time. 

[Anduin]

44 minutes ago, MJ Frog said:

Oy. The whole lightning + The Lost Silmaril (?) = mithril, which the elves need because they're "fading" all the sudden for... reasons... is the surest sign yet that the showrunners have no feel for this world. In order to squeeze drama out of a story that should have plenty built in, they veer off in this bizarre direction that would be more appropriate in the MCU.

Genre stories are rarely done well because everone thinks there's nothing to it. Comedy, horror, and fantasy in particular require writers and filmakers who really have a feel for it. Getting this stuff right is NOT easy, and capturing the spirit of Tolkien is particularly elusive. I have been patient with the show up until now, because of its legal limitations, and with the mindset that it isn't really Tolkien, but the next county over. And that's been fine. But this last episode is the first time that I really felt like I was knocked right out of the story with a sledgehammer. Oh well, signs of things to come I suppose.

The one thing I did like was the way the mithril flashback was told, with that highly stylized mix of animation and live action. These are big, operatic, moments and this kind of presentation seems a good way to infuse them with the necessary power and impact.

20 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Ok maybe that is just an initial judgmental reaction on my part. There are elves native to middle earth and of course they value their home.  And there has to be a reason why the dwarves are so pissed off at the elves.  Still it seems awkward to me. Unnecessary. Like propaganda. My impression in the books I’ve read was elves were entitled and like shiny things a d so do dwarves. Maybe I’m wrong. 
 

I think the time compression does this story no favors.  So many races and so little time. 

Corey Olsen's theory. Annatar is already at work. He convinced Gil-Galad that the fading can stop with the application of mithril. Only he wants it for his own nefarious purposes. By spring? Well, he already has an orc army up and running.

Anyway, neither of the silmarils ended up near the Misty Mountains. One went into the sea, the other into the ground somewhere in Beleriand. Maybe tectonic currents carried that one east, but it's implausible. Even if it isn't Annatar at work, something else dodgy is at work.

[MJ Frog]

1 minute ago, Anduin said:

Anyway, neither of the silmarils ended up near the Misty Mountains. One went into the sea, the other into the ground somewhere in Beleriand. Maybe tectonic currents carried that one east, but it's implausible. Even if it isn't Annatar at work, something else dodgy is at work.

Exactly -- there ain't no Silmaril over there. As you say, I think the only thing that can save this storyline is if it turns out someone is lying. Either Gil Galad, Annatar, or some other nefarious person.

[JustHereForFood]

So, the king is totally lying about the Elves dying and wants the mithril for something else, probably wealth, right? 

The way his conversation with Elrond went, Elrond basically confirmed to him that Dwarves have fount it, good job!

I didn't care much for Harfoots this episode, but that song was beautiful. So was the music at the end of the episode, I am already looking forward to the soundtrack.

Halbrand looked a lot like Aragorn at the end, I wonder if that was intentional and if they are going for the parallel woth long-lost king, or it's a misdirection and he will turn out to be a bad guy.

Glad that Theo told Arondir about the dagger, keeping things like that secret is not a good idea.

11 hours ago, Msample said:

Am I the only one frustrated by the seemingly deliberate vagueness with regards to geography? They flash over a map showing the Harfoots migration route in like 2 seconds. The tower the southerners are sheltering in seems like what will eventually become Minas Morgul.

I wish Amazon would just put a map of the whole thing on their website. I tried looking at maps in the books at a bookstore and just got confused.

[Anduin]

19 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

I wish Amazon would just put a map of the whole thing on their website. I tried looking at maps in the books at a bookstore and just got confused.

Turns out, there's a Second Age map online! Arondir and Bronwyn are somewhere along the outside northern edge of Mordor. The harfoots, I dunno. I'll figure it out sooner or later.

[Haleth]

“Disa’s been wanting a new table.”  Gee, why didn’t I think of this when I bought a new dining room set 2 weeks ago?  “Your use of this substance offends my people.  I demand you turn it over to me immediately!”

I’m a pretty fervent Tolkien geek but I don’t get how mithril will save the Elves. Are they going to eat it?

The writers sure want us to think the Stranger is Olorin.  Not all who wander are lost, indeed.

The Numenor scenes, especially the last, are incredibly beautiful. 

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

.  And there has to be a reason why the dwarves are so pissed off at the elves.  Still it seems awkward to me. Unnecessary. Like propaganda. My impression in the books I’ve read was elves were entitled and like shiny things a d so do dwarves. Maybe I’m wrong. 

You are right. They fought over a Silmaril. It’s a long story about betrayal.

[QuantumMechanic]

5 minutes ago, Haleth said:

I’m a pretty fervent Tolkien geek but I don’t get how mithril will save the Elves. Are they going to eat it?

Elves need batteries!

Well, IIRC Celebrimbor said that by bathing the Elves in "the light of Valinor" from the mithril they would be recharged.

For me personally, this episode was really the "Remember our reassuring noises about not contradicting clear canon? Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!" point. (Not that they hadn't been veering away before, but even if not holding the compressed timeline against them, this was well over the line.)

[Anduin]

It's that special fun time, geography time! Now, refer to the second age map and this video. It looks like the trail starts somewhere north of Rhovanion Hills. I can't do anything about that, but we know Rhovanion and the Limlight, a river that flows roughly SE out of Fangorn. So much for my thinking they were in Eriador. The big river to their west is the Anduin! Hooray! I feel seen!

Weedbrook, I don't know. I can't find any easterly tributary of the Anduin, sorry. Maybe something happened to it over the years. The Undercliffs might be or be around Emyn Muil.

Grey Marshes would be below Rauros, the Nindalf/Wetwang. Where the Entwash joins the Anduin.

Further east, Trout Bend. I don't know, there's a jump. The last letter we see on the left is G. Then Thistledell and the Braids. Probably a set of rapids. Could be the north end of Cair Andros. They're getting awfully close to Mordor...

So it looks like the Harfoots started maybe somewhere around Mirkwood, crossed the Anduin, then kept it on their left as they headed roughly SE. Looks like they might end up near the Ostirith watchtower. Where the Numenoreans are also headed.

This is my best guess. If anyone wants to correct me, honestly, please do.

[Emily Thrace]

I think the Stranger is Gandalf too. One thing to note is that when Gandalf show up in Middle Earth he already speaks the language and immediately starts talking to the elves. Which does suggest either he was much better prepared for the journey or he had been there before. 

Galadriel and Haldir do have fantastic chemistry.  I do wonder where her husband is though or if they are not married yet or just on a break right now. Why do I get the feeling Celebor will show just as Haldir makes a move? Or possibly Haldir's wife who he left for dead. If Theo was a little fairer I might wonder if Haldir was Bronwyn's AWOL ex. Its unlikely Haldir and Bronwyn would produce a kid as brown as Theo though it is possible.

Either way I don't see a happy ending. They are an elf and a man its doomed and they know it. It could be really fun on the way down though. I don't think Haldir is Sauron but rather the Witch King of Agnar.  I think spending time with Galadriel (one of the great magicians of the age) might be how someone earns a name like the Witch King of Agnar. It also puts an interesting wrinkle in why Galadriel was so interested in his resurrection when she was on the white council.  

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, Emily Thrace said:

I think spending time with Galadriel (one of the great magicians of the age) might be how someone earns a name like the Witch King of Agnar. 

We haven't seen Galadriel using any magic so far.  I wonder if they have the meteor man "teaching" her magic.  

16 hours ago, Msample said:

Am I the only one frustrated by the seemingly deliberate vagueness with regards to geography? They flash over a map showing the Harfoots migration route in like 2 seconds. The tower the southerners are sheltering in seems like what will eventually become Minas Morgul.

I wish they would zoom out of the map more.  I want to see where everyone is in relation to each other.  How close are the Harfoots to where Arondir is?  I think Linden is supposed to be far away from Khazad-dum though?  Are they walking all the way with the table?  Don't tell me Galadriel and company will reach the South Lands in a day and a half.

[Anduin]

Update! Two people had a crack at the map too. Looks like the Harfoots already passed Mordor on the northern side, and have now turned north-east, heading up to the Sea of Rhun. Which is a shame, because according to my path they'll bump into the other groups around Ostirith.

See map one and map two.

Looks like my geography skills are up there with my predictive skills. :(

[moonshine71]

Ok, I'm finally chiming in in this show. I love anything Tolkien related. I want to love it. I want if to be great, if only to shut down the incessant, tiresome "go woke go broke" crowd. But it's just not doing it for me. I can't get through an entire episode without losing interest at some point. I find myself missing things just because it doesn't hold my attention. 

Last week seemed like a small step in the right direction. This week, as soon as it opened with the harfoots and those ridiculous bird's nests they wear on their heads, i started to mentally tune out. They feel more like ewoks than hobbits. And the map, ugh. Ok, the ewoks... err, harfoots have just walked a nonsensical lap around Middle Earth, meanwhile 24 hours pass in Numenor. 

And now the fight scene in Numenor. I'm all for badass Galadriel. And it was nice to see her display at least a slightly different emotion for once. But the fight choreography didn't do much for me. And the logic of that scene...  umm? "If you touch her flesh you will be promoted". Immediately, you have guys taking massive, full on swings with live swords trying to remove her head from her body.

" Good news, you are now promoted to Lieutenant in this expeditionary force. Unfortunately, the expedition is now cancelled since you lopped the head off of the elf that was leading us into this."

And promoting someone due to the fact that while half a dozen men are attacking Galadriel, one if then managed a lucky, glancing blow, seems pretty questionable. I would imagine if would be much wiser to choose leaders based on things like leadership skills. But that's just me.

Ok, that's all I got until I can push through the rest of the episode. 

Edited September 24, 2022 by moonshine71

[PeterPirate]

10 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

Well, IIRC Celebrimbor said that by bathing the Elves in "the light of Valinor" from the mithril they would be recharged.

For me personally, this episode was really the "Remember our reassuring noises about not contradicting clear canon? Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!" point. (Not that they hadn't been veering away before, but even if not holding the compressed timeline against them, this was well over the line.)

For me another major change in canon is the paltry size of Numenor's invasion force.  After last episode I was expecting to see an armada of hundreds of ships and thousands of soldiers.  Even with 500 men this invasion is at best foolhardy.  It reminds me of Denethor's order to Faramir re-take Osgiliath with the Company of Ithilien.  (In the movie; the book version is a little different.)  And we're supposed to hate Denethor for that.  

I only hope Gandalf arrives to save the day.  

Edited September 24, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Affogato]

12 hours ago, Haleth said:

I’m a pretty fervent Tolkien geek but I don’t get how mithril will save the Elves. Are they going to eat it?

It does bring to mind the glowy fruits in Tru Blood. That is what they use to fertilize the orchards.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Affogato

[Haleth]

Is this something new that the writers came up with that mithril carries the light of the simarils?  I don’t remember ever reading this. 

[QuantumMechanic]

42 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Is this something new that the writers came up with that mithril carries the light of the simarils?  I don’t remember ever reading this. 

You didn't ever read it because you couldn't have.

[Camera One]

If I knew nothing about the books or movies, I would think Galadriel was a hotheaded idiot, Gil-Gilad was an immoral backstabber, Isildur was a flaky pest, etc.  I find it hard to like any character on the show.  Every story does need story arcs, but the writing on this show is using the simplistic technique of making characters the polar opposite of what they eventually become.  

Let's say Galadriel is currently someone who couldn't even have a civil conversation with someone before making rude demands.  They still need to reconcile with the fact that she is supposedly this very old being with life experience, not a brash teenager.  

Do they want us to see these character as in-name only so not judge their current incarnations?  But at the same time, appreciate the various name-drops and Easter eggs?  Are we supposed to like these characters more because of what we know about them outside the show (and their futures)?  Because they give very little reason to like them based on what we've seen.  Even characters I liked in some episodes, like Elrond, acted like a suspicious spy in the previous episode, and then in this one, he was portrayed as the most loyal of friends.  A well-written character can be grey, but there needs to be some nuance in the writing to make it convincing.

[tennisgurl]

Galadriel apparently read “How to Make Friend and Influence People” in between now and LOTR. She’s a bull in a china shop right who’s only just now managed to stop glowering for three seconds, but we know that years from now she’s a very regal friendly, wise, and kindly high queen type, albeit with a bit of a scary side. I’m really not sure how she’s going to go from this person to that one. 

[Haleth]

I have no problem with characters changing due to their life experiences. 

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

I have no problem with characters changing due to their life experiences. 

That is certainly the hope.  Versus characters changing because the plot needs them to.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Camera One

[Diapason Untuned]

The mithril story is 100% a Sauron trick. That story was probably planted eons ago for just this eventuality.

23 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

So, the king is totally lying about the Elves dying and wants the mithril for something else, probably wealth, right? 

Man gave up that nice looking table. He must fear for his life.

[quarks]

So here I've been pointing out that a number of the supposed "departures" from the text are perhaps not all that far from the text, and then the show delivers this episode, which, ok, yes, very far from the text. 

And also, somewhat contradicting earlier episodes. 

Starting with:

1. The Silmarils and mithril. At no point does Tolkien's very clear description of mithril suggest that it contains the light of the Silmaril - any silmaril. It's just a very rare, very valuable, shiny metal. Also at no point does Tolkien suggest that one of the Eldar fought with a Balrog over a Silmaril - Feanor's son Maedhros stole the Silmaril, it burned him, and he fell into a crack in the earth. No Balrog required. It is true that Tolkien was reconsidering parts of this, but since the show is still sticking with the whole Earendil and its Silmaril are the evening/morning star thing, it should be sticking with "the Silmaril is down in the depths of the earth" thing.

2. But on that note, if they need light from a Silmaril to survive - again, one of the Silmarils is right up there in the sky! Galadriel was able to collect its light for Frodo, so, you know, consider that option before trying to take a nice shiny new metal away from your workers, elves!

3. But on that note, what is this? In the very first episode Gil-galad made it clear that he had chosen to honor Galadriel and company with a nice trip to the Grey Havens and to Valinor. Which is to say, at least on this show (and also in the books, at this point), they can just...go to Valinor.  In the books, at this point they can also come back - most don't, but a few are coming from Tol Eressea. I get that they don't want to leave yet another home, but this doesn't seem to be the crisis that Gil-galad is portraying it to be. 

4. And while it is true that Elves who remain in Middle-Earth very very very slowly age and fade, the key here is very very very slowly, not "sometime next year."

I feel that this show is really going into the whole "Arwen's light is fading" thing from the films without recognizing why that happened - in the films and the books. Arwen made the deliberate choice to embrace her human heritage and die. It's not necessarily something that happens to all of the Elves, show!

5. But speaking of the films, one huge problem with all of this is that we know that the Elves will still be around thousands of years later, along with mithril. Which kinda robs this entire plot of most of the suspense. Especially because we know the one Elf that isn't going to survive also isn't going to die from a lack of Valinor light - unless the show plans to change that, which, I guess it might. And we also know another one of the Elves is going to be just giving the Valinor light away so that Sam can use it to kill big spiders - suggesting that she doesn't exactly need it to survive. 

6. I'm guessing that at least some of this is Gil-galad completely misinterpreting the black lines appearing in the leaves and the tree as "oooh, we need the light of Valinor" and not "oooh, Sauron is coming back," which is...also maybe not exactly the way Gil-galad was portrayed in the texts. And granted, that includes texts that this show doesn't have the rights to, but even the limited mentions of Gil-galad in The Lord of the Rings clarify that he absolutely realized that evil was still around and was concerned about Sauron. AUUGH. In the meantime, Gil-galad is either falling for a trick, or, lying to people, and....it's just not great.

7. Though kudos to the show for explaining just how Galadriel has been around all this time and yet apparently only managed to make one friend: tactlessness! It's a thing!

8. Speaking of changes to the text, though, what is this ongoing insistence that Earendil was human, and not half-human? Just Celebrimbor being a jerk? Something more?

9. Which is to say, YOU GO DWARVES AND GET THAT TABLE. GET A LOT MORE TABLES WHILE YOU'RE AT IT. I am so pro-Dwarf at this point it is not even funny.

10. And all this in an episode that contained a song quoting Tolkien's words about not all those who wander are lost. That bit, I loved. 

[tvmom]

23 minutes ago, quarks said:

10. And all this in an episode that contained a song quoting Tolkien's words about not all those who wander are lost. That bit, I loved. 

Ditto ❤️🙂

[Emily Thrace]

3 hours ago, Diapason Untuned said:

The mithril story is 100% a Sauron trick. That story was probably planted eons ago for just this eventuality.

Man gave up that nice looking table. He must fear for his life.

Yeah the mithril story is a total smoke screen. I'm still not sure if its Gil-Galad smoke screen or Sauron's. Suaron is totally the reason the tree is dying though. I'm just not sure how much Gil-Galad is aware of. One thing to note is that the ring of power Galadriel receives is made of mithril. 

8 hours ago, Camera One said:

Let's say Galadriel is currently someone who couldn't even have a civil conversation with someone before making rude demands.  They still need to reconcile with the fact that she is supposedly this very old being with life experience, not a brash teenager.  

Galadriel is actually acting very much like someone deep in the throes of PTSD, which does often cause shifts in personality. I don't think that its that she hasn't learned how to be nice I think she been operating on survival mode for so long she doesn't remember. She barks orders at everyone because its the only way she has communicated for an age. She is the soldier who can't stop fighting because it the only thing she knows. Its not a new story (especially since 9/11) and Tolkien touched on it with Frodo in particular but giving this arc to a women does make it somewhat different. I do think if a male character acted the way Galadriel has been reactions would be different sadly.

[moonshine71]

Ok, what the hell is this exchange-

Gil-Galad- " hey, I CLEARLY already know that the dwarves have found mithril, and your reaction right now is TOTALLY confirming my belief that they have found mithril, but I'm going to keep pestering you to tell me that the dwarves have found mithril. "

Elrond- "I absolutely can't break my oath and tell you that the dwarves found mithril! I very specifically promised my friend Durin that I wouldn't tell anyone about how they found mithril! I would be a horrible friend and be breaking my oath if I told you the dwarves found mithril!"

Of course, later Celibrimbor and Elrond are debating whether he should break his oath while Celibrimbor is HOLDING ELROND'S PIECE OF MITHRAL!?

[PeterPirate]

For me the mithril thing is the jumping-the-tracks moment for this show.  The Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir is an invention of this show, regardless of what ends up being the cause of the blight of the Elves and their lands. 

I agree with the notion of interpreting Galadriel as someone with PTSD.  Whatever her story turns out to be, "character arc" will seem insufficient.  Frankly, I'm not sure what term to use.  Is Theoden's story a "character arc", or is there a better term for it?    

I'm beginning to wonder how far off the tracks this show is going to go.  Maybe Galadriel's obsession for revenge will be the cause of the blight.  Maybe it will be the reason Halbrand becomes Sauron.  Maybe Pharazon will impose such high tributes on the Southlands that Halbrand will forge rings in an effort to unite the people of Middle Earth in a defensive alliance.  For that matter, maybe he will make rings for the Dwarves so they can protect themselves from those mithril-grabbing Elves.  And he will need a ring for himself to control those rings and make sure they are not used for the "wrong reasons".    

Go big or go home, show.  

ETA:  I found this video that discusses the nature of Sauron and evil in general.  He quotes a lot from "Letter 131".  

Edited September 25, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Grimnar]

As was mentioned in thread for previous episode, we need some timeline for how much time has passed since first episode. Southland arc seems as it is just week, Galadriel's arc few weeks and Durin and Elrond's can be few months.

Writing is still questionable. There is no sense, logic or emotional impact behind most storylines. Númenor is going to send 500 soldiers(with no experience and with very minimal training) to save people from orcs based on outdated information(no information about size of the enemy's army, etc), Gil-Galad is competing with Galadriel about most unlikable character, Elrond can't keep secret even for one episode and the plot with mithril doesn't make much sense, still unknown reason why Númenor hates elves, etc.

For me this show is just average. It is not bad but at same time it is not good enough and if it wouldn't be based(very very very loosly based) on Tolkien's work, I would probably stop watching it or if there would't be improvement I wouldn't watch next season.

[Haleth]

10 hours ago, quarks said:

I feel that this show is really going into the whole "Arwen's light is fading" thing from the films without recognizing why that happened - in the films and the books. Arwen made the deliberate choice to embrace her human heritage and die. It's not necessarily something that happens to all of the Elves, show!

Thank you!  (I hated this plot point in the movie.)

10 hours ago, quarks said:

Speaking of changes to the text, though, what is this ongoing insistence that Earendil was human, and not half-human?

Thank you, again!  And Idril thanks you.

I guess I can answer my own question above about how mithril will save the Elves.  The 3 rings, of course.  Duh.

Galadriel has lots of reasons to be angry, not only the death of her brother.  She was coerced into leaving Valinor, she witnessed the whole kin slaying thing, and then was left stranded in the northern wasteland for starters.  Of course the show can't tell viewers any of that.

[Camera One]

On 9/24/2022 at 7:54 AM, Haleth said:

Is this something new that the writers came up with that mithril carries the light of the simarils?  I don’t remember ever reading this. 

I didn't know Tolkien's history/lore about mithril so I didn't realize the show's story behind it was different until I learned more about it afterwards.  It is an interesting debate in my mind whether to let deviations from the lore bother me when I wouldn't have known any different without the internet.  I do know I didn't really enjoy this development play out within this episode.  Gil-galad could have had talks with Durin's father to strike a deal of some sort.  I'm not sure what he thought he had to gain from his hostile questioning of Durin at dinner.

9 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I agree with the notion of interpreting Galadriel as someone with PTSD. 

I think this is definitely the best route to go in order to explain her behavior thus far, though viewers shouldn't have to try to bend over backwards to find ways to connect to a character.  If I had to justify what she is like right now, I would also point to the frustration of being the only one to keep trying to find Sauron, while constantly being dismissed by others.  They can't show a bunch of stuff from the books, but they haven't done a good job of showing enough for us to see from her POV, despite her ample screentime.  

It didn't help that Galadriel didn't seem to show any care or concern for her company of elves.  Thus far, she hasn't been shown to care about anyone that didn't contribute to her single-minded mission of revenge.  She said Elrond was her best friend but we just saw one or two conversations with them in which she shamed him for acting like a politician and demanded an audience with the king.  The character needs more introspective dialogue or maybe a flashback or two, or a situation or two to show she is capable of thinking about others beyond her single-minded pursuit.  I think there is still time to do this but I keep telling myself that every episode.

Edited September 25, 2022 by Camera One

[quarks]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

Galadriel has lots of reasons to be angry, not only the death of her brother.  She was coerced into leaving Valinor, she witnessed the whole kin slaying thing, and then was left stranded in the northern wasteland for starters.  Of course the show can't tell viewers any of that.

And although the Galadriel on the show doesn't seem all that interested in making friends, I think we can probably assume that she at least liked one or two people in Doriath, before that realm was destroyed. Something else the show can't tell us about.

3 hours ago, Grimnar said:

 still unknown reason why Númenor hates elves, etc.

Which is odd, since the show only needed a few lines of dialogue to set up why the humans and elves down in the Southland don't trust each other.  Presumably the same thing could be done in Númenor.

[Grimnar]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I think this is definitely the best route to go in order to explain her behavior thus far, though viewers shouldn't have to try to bend over backwards to find ways to connect to a character.  If I had to justify what she is like right now, I would also point to the frustration of being the only one to keep trying to find Sauron, while constantly being dismissed by others.  They can't show a bunch of stuff from the books, but they haven't done a good job of showing enough for us to see from her POV, despite her ample screentime.  

It didn't help that Galadriel didn't seem to show any care or concern for her company of elves.  Thus far, she hasn't been shown to care about anyone that didn't contribute to her single-minded mission of revenge.  She said Elrond was her best friend but we just saw one or two conversations with them in which she shamed him for acting like a politician and demanded an audience with the king.  The character needs more introspective dialogue or maybe a flashback or two, or a situation or two to show she is capable of thinking about others beyond her single-minded pursuit.  I think there is still time to do this but I keep telling myself that every episode.

I think that bolded part can be problematic, for people who know timeline of Second Age or remember from Fellowship movie part where Gandalf found Isildurs' scroll, that we are at more than 3000 years since start of Second Age. If only thing Galadriel found since then was strange mark which she couldn't decrypt without Númenor's library, it is not difficult to believe that other elves will dismissed her as obssessed with Sauron. Without evidence for centuries, it is not hard to believe that others will ignore Galadriel. And it is not helping that Galadrielis writen as character without any people's skill.

This is of course undermined by Gil-Galad when he admitted to Elrond that if they will not have mithril, Middle-earth will be ocuppied by army of darkness. So if you know that Sauron is still threat and not obsession of Galadriel, then why you are sending her away and removing elves from Southland.

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

It didn't help that Galadriel didn't seem to show any care or concern for her company of elves.  Thus far, she hasn't been shown to care about anyone that didn't contribute to her single-minded mission of revenge.  She said Elrond was her best friend but we just saw one or two conversations with them in which she shamed him for acting like a politician and demanded an audience with the king.  The character needs more introspective dialogue or maybe a flashback or two, or a situation or two to show she is capable of thinking about others beyond her single-minded pursuit.  I think there is still time to do this but the season is already half over.

4 hours ago, Haleth said:

Galadriel has lots of reasons to be angry, not only the death of her brother.  She was coerced into leaving Valinor, she witnessed the whole kin slaying thing, and then was left stranded in the northern wasteland for starters.  Of course the show can't tell viewers any of that.

I wonder if knowing Galadriel's backstory would make a difference to those who don't like her.  In the book Denethor went mad because he had a palantiri and was able to look into the mind of Sauron and also see the size of the forces gathered against Gondor.  They don't show that in the movie--he just sends Faramir and the Company of Ithilien on a suicide mission to re-take Osgiliath.  I don't think there are many people who are unhappy that Denethor killed himself, and I doubt that number would increase if they had shown the palantiri in the movie.  That scene of Faramir and his men galloping towards Osgiliath while Denethor gnaws his food and Pippin sings is just heartbreaking. 

In the book Faramir loses one-third of his men while defending the city before he retreats back to Minas Tirith.  In the movie, he is the only one who returns from the effort to re-take the city.  I guess we'll learn soon enough how many Numenoreans survive the assault on the Southlands.  

Edited September 25, 2022 by PeterPirate