S01.E06: The Princess And The Queen

[LanceM]

22 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

.What does Rhaenyra have to offer to the most powerful nobles that they can't get from Alicent's faction? She has managed to alienate her husband who should be her most natural ally, lord Corlys is probably fuming about the adultery,  we have never seen her trying to get any powerful lord to support her, let alone succeed in that, etc.

Dragons. Her faction has 3 adult dragons and Alicent has none.
And given that his wife is now dead I think it is safe to assume Daemon and his 3 dragons will be returning home and I don’t think he will be joining Alicent’s faction,

[kassandra8286]

1 hour ago, LanceM said:

You are right though that the more people that know the truth does help Alicent, providing of course those people even care about the truth.

Agree. My guess is that those who support Alicent/Aegon will care a great deal, since tarnishing Rhaenyra helps their cause, and those who support Rhaenyra will look the other way, for the same reason. 

[proserpina65]

8 hours ago, nomodrama said:

Not sure anyone was whispering about Robert and calling it treason though. Stupid misogyny. 

It's got nothing to do with misogyny and everything to do with who's actually the ruler.  The KING having affairs wouldn't be treason.  His wife having them absolutely would.  Same as if there was a queen instead.  Her screwing around, not treason; her husband doing it would be.

5 hours ago, NeenerNeener said:

Yes we have...Daemon, right in this episode. Laena had her dragon blow fire at Daemon and his dragon and they flew right through it and came out unharmed.

I interpreted that differently but could easily be wrong.  I suspect we'll see either later this season or next season.

3 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

So you subscribe to the 'Alicent is a complete clueless dolt' theory?

I don't think she's a clueless dolt so much as not clever or generally good at scheming.  I fully believe she wouldn't have thought that Larys could have his father and brother killed.  Now, of course, she knows what he's capable of, so if she isn't more careful going forward, then maybe clueless dolt is the answer.

55 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

The point is - because we, the audience, now know just how amoral and without conscience Larys is - someone who's spent ten years in cahoots with him - really shouldn't be only just finding out this totally new information right now...

Except that we don't know the extent of their involvement in those years.  It's entirely possible that nothing Larys has done up to this has been underhanded but nothing like arranging someone's murder.

43 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Stuff and nonsense, of course someone can hide their feelings from one set of people and not someone else, especially when they're in league with that someone else. Larys even made some snide remark about his father regarding his honour being a weight around his neck during the meal, so he wasn't behaving with any fondness, let alone loyalty there was he <-- no psychic ability needed clue right there for Alicent.

Huge difference between acknowledging that he doesn't like his father and isn't loyal to him and thinking he'd be capable of murdering him.  And someone can hide the extent of their amorality even from people with whom they've been doing less evil plotting.  So yes, it's absolutely possible that Alicent did not realize he'd be capable of murdering his own family members.

29 minutes ago, LanceM said:

Dragons. Her faction has 3 adult dragons and Alicent has none.
And given that his wife is now dead I think it is safe to assume Daemon and his 3 dragons will be returning home and I don’t think he will be joining Alicent’s faction,

Daemon can only claim two dragons, his and his daughter's.  He has no claim on his late wife's dragon.  They aren't property to be passed along to spouses or children.  And I don't remember anyone saying the daughter's dragon was an adult yet.  (I don't know how long it takes them to grow at this point in Westerosi history.)

Alicent's side can claim one dragon at this point, and again, not sure how mature Aegon's dragon is.  Still, that's fewer than Daemon has.

[Constantinople]

43 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

We only know that about Larys after he killed his father and brother. There was nothing in the show to indicate beforehand that he would do something like that.

And if Larys can mask his feelings about Lyonel and Harwin from Lyonel and Harwin, I don't see why viewers should expect Alicent to be psychic unless they've already decided they don't like her and want to confirm their pre-existing bias.

19 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Stuff and nonsense, of course someone can hide their feelings from one set of people and not someone else, especially when they're in league with that someone else. Larys even made some snide remark about his father regarding his honour being a weight around his neck during the meal, so he wasn't behaving with any fondness, let alone loyalty there was he <-- no psychic ability needed clue right there for Alicent.

Obliquely referring to my pre-existing bias adds no weight to the debate whatsoever, I have my bias for reasons like this - particularly when I'm citing legitimate examples for said bias.

Larys's remark to Alicent about his Lyonel's honor was no more snide than Harwin's remark to Lyonel ("You have your honor and I have mine"). Given that, expecting Alicent to foresee the Great Harrenhal BBQ requires a greater leap than Bob Beamon at the 1968 Olympics.

[absnow54]

27 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Daemon can only claim two dragons, his and his daughter's.  He has no claim on his late wife's dragon.  They aren't property to be passed along to spouses or children.  And I don't remember anyone saying the daughter's dragon was an adult yet.  (I don't know how long it takes them to grow at this point in Westerosi history.)

Alicent's side can claim one dragon at this point, and again, not sure how mature Aegon's dragon is.  Still, that's fewer than Daemon has.

I think Haelana has a dragon too. They made it seem like Aemond was the only one who didn't have one. It's odd that they haven't leaned into the power of dragons though. The Targaryen's have power because they have dragons. No one challenges their position because of it. Yet, Viserys has spent his entire reign without a dragon. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

My conclusions are absolutely based on what has been shown and then extrapolated from that.

1. We know that Larys has been allied to Alicent for ten years.

2. We know he is without morals or conscience.

3. We know Alicent and he are, in fact, fairly close - as demonstrated by them having dinner together privately. Which, judging by his "I started without you" remark, logic would dictate that that isn't the first time by any stretch of the imagination, but rather a regular, if not common, occurrence given his easy familiarity/lack of formality with the queen.

4. It isn't a leap to think that given all the above, that Alicent would have at least some understanding of who she has allied herself with these past ten years.

So I stand by the idea that she either knows to a great extent who she's dealing with or is a total clueless fool.

If this were true, her next conscience-driven, 'I play by the rules' move should be to, at minimum, distance herself - if not completely for fear of repercussions but at least as much as possible - from this heinous murderer to avoid any future unintentional complicity in his actions then. Colour me doubtful.

How do we actually know that Larys has been allied to Alicent for 10 years, as opposed to 5 years, 2 years, 1 year, a month? Where specifically in this episode was it shown? Or any previous one that they were allies back before the time jump? 

We can reasonably assume they have been allies for much or all of the time jump. We can just as reasonably assume that they have only recently begun working together. But we don't know any of this for sure as far as I can tell. I don't remember if teen Alicent and Larys even were in a scene together, much less were besties.

We the viewers know that he is without morals or conscience because again, we are genre savvy. We can certainly reasonably suspect that his lack of morals and conscience manifested themselves in a way that Ali knew or should have known about them. But we can also reasonably suspect that Ali wasn't aware of that. There is an actual scene where she is shocked by what happened to support the notion that Ali wasn't aware of how evil Larys is. As far as I can remember, there has been nothing in the show to actually demonstrate to a character in the show that Larys is double-murder-my-family evil until this episode and his arranging for the double murder.

Indeed, within all of GOT, despite a lot of duplicity and ruthlessness amongst the characters, I would say precious few would arrange a cold-blooded murder of multiple immediate family members to get what they want.  Littlefinger, for instance, probably would. But I don't think the general fan base considers Ned Stark a dolt for trusting him (although perhaps we should). 

We know that Ali and Larys were set to have dinner privately, and it is (I think, anyways) a reasonable assumption that they have done so some number of times previously. It's certainly a possibility that they are sleeping together. It's certainly a possibility that she, he and Ser Criston are having three-ways every fortnight. But that a possibility exists doesn't make it guaranteed or even particularly likely.

One can interpret the "I started without you" a number of ways, including that the double-murdering-burning-his-own-family guy is just rude enough to be starting without the Queen at his first dinner with her as he would at the 200th.

We will see going forward what Ali will do. Perhaps she will feel trapped by Larys's move into being neutral toward him. Perhaps she will feel threatened by him both physically and in the blackmail sense since someone so willing to kill his own flesh and blood would have no reluctance to do, well, just about anything. Perhaps she reveal all along that her reaction was a facade and she will do whatever it takes to retain power. Perhaps she will change into a more "ends justify the means" kind of person than I think she is.

[The Kings Foot]

4 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Exactly. We are also supposed to believe that Larys is a brilliant plotter with many informants who is on the side of Alicent but hasn't managed to catch Rhaenyra and his brother in flagrante in 10 years. The whole thing makes everyone involved look like a clueless fool.

2 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Alicent would be doing the accusing in this scenario. You know, as she seems to have been doing all along without being executed. Or Larys and Alicent could arrange for some reputable third party to discover the adultery and report to the king. Only difference would be that the evidence would be much more convincing if there were witnesses. Even if Viserys continues to stick his head in the sand, Alicent's position would be strengthened because the claims that Rhaenyra's children are illegitimate would be more believable if they are not based only on how her children look like. See how the rumours increased when Harwin attacked Criston, and that was only circumstantial evidence.

There is some confusion here.  The important person here is Laenor.  As long as Laenor holds to the fiction that those are his children  then nothing can happen.  It is his marriage after all. 

Also you remember the last time there was evidence of Rhaenyrs  having illicit sex, the result was Daemon and Otto banished.  Any reputable witness is going to be worried about the same happening to him.  

Edited September 28, 2022 by The Kings Foot

[LanceM]

15 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

How do we actually know that Larys has been allied to Alicent for 10 years, as opposed to 5 years, 2 years, 1 year, a month? Where specifically in this episode was it shown? Or any previous one that they were allies back before the time jump? 

We can reasonably assume they have been allies for much or all of the time jump. We can just as reasonably assume that they have only recently begun working together. But we don't know any of this for sure as far as I can tell. I don't remember if teen Alicent and Larys even were in a scene together, much less were besties.

In episode 5 they did have a scene together. Larry’s told teenage Alicent that she needed allies in this court and then told her  about the maester bringing Rhaenyra moon tea. In other words I can be you ally and this is the type of information I can provide.

Edited September 28, 2022 by LanceM

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, LanceM said:

I am not sure we are supposed to believe this at all. I think we are supposed to believe that he knows they are Harwin’s kids and has all this time but can’t really do anything about it as accusing the princess of adultery will basically lead to his execution given the fact that the King is standing by his daughter 100% even though he knows the “rumors” are true.

I think it's been clearly an open secret certainly among House Strong that the kids are Harwin's. Why Larys hasn't set some cunning plan in motion to spread the truth without implicating himself (or maybe he has and we haven't been shown the fruits of it yet) remains to be seen. 

Surely there's other options between "stand pat in the background and privately grouse about the affair that has been going on for (judging by Jace's age) at least 8-9 years" and "directly tell the King that the affair has been happening and hope that he doesn't banish or execute you."

1 hour ago, LanceM said:

Dragons. Her faction has 3 adult dragons and Alicent has none.
And given that his wife is now dead I think it is safe to assume Daemon and his 3 dragons will be returning home and I don’t think he will be joining Alicent’s faction,

Someone correct me if my accounting is wrong as to the following dragons/alliances as far as we have been shown:

Team Rhae: 4 of various potential ages.

Rhae has her own dragon, full grown, seen before the time jump.

Laenor has his own dragon, full grown, seen before the time jump.

Jace has his own dragon, alluded to in this ep.

Middle child of Rhae/Harwin has a dragon (presumably as he was joining in on the teasing).

Team Alicent: 1 dragon.

Aegon is the only one who has one.

Viserys used to have a dragon but didn't try for a replacement when it died(I think?)

Daughter may have a dragon(?)

Aemond does not have a dragon and was teased for it.

Team Daemon: 2 dragons currently

Daemon has his dragon, which we saw in this episode.

One daughter has a dragon.

One daughter is still looking for a dragon.

Laena had a dragon, but with her death that dragon (the biggest one known) is now a free agent.

So I assume part of the rest of this season at least is which person from which faction will do what it takes to lure the biggest/baddest dragon to an unaffiliated potential rider, Aemond, Daemon daughter, or someone else?

[LanceM]

Rhaenys has an adult dragon as well. She was shown flying alongside Laenor and his dragon when they were coming to Kings Landing for the wedding in episode 5.

[proserpina65]

19 minutes ago, LanceM said:

Rhaenys has an adult dragon as well. She was shown flying alongside Laenor and his dragon when they were coming to Kings Landing for the wedding in episode 5.

True.  Presumably she'd be on Rhaenyra's side because of Laenor's "children", but I guess we'll see.

[Chicago Redshirt]

52 minutes ago, LanceM said:

In episode 5 they did have a scene together. Larry’s told teenage Alicent that she needed allies in this court and then told her  about the maester bringing Rhaenyra moon tea. In other words I can be you ally and this is the type of information I can provide.

Thank you for the memory refresh.  

[Meredith Quill]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Larys's remark to Alicent about his Lyonel's honor was no more snide than Harwin's remark to Lyonel ("You have your honor and I have mine"). Given that, expecting Alicent to foresee the Great Harrenhal BBQ requires a greater leap than Bob Beamon at the 1968 Olympics.

Except it was 100% more snide because Larys said it of his father to someone else without provocation, rather than directly to his father in the middle of a heated argument with him.

Who said anything about foresee? I already stated previously that I'm not saying she should have known or to use your venacular; foreseen it - but... she should have suspected him capable of it and chosen her words more carefully - see the difference?

[MrWhyt]

3 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

suspected him capable of it and chosen her words more carefully - see the difference?

but why? there is a big step from "being a shady source of information" to "being capable of murdering his father and brother without remorse" and we haven't seen Larys give any reason for Alicent to suspect of him of having taken that step.

[Meredith Quill]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

How do we actually know that Larys has been allied to Alicent for 10 years, as opposed to 5 years, 2 years, 1 year, a month? Where specifically in this episode was it shown? Or any previous one that they were allies back before the time jump? 

We can reasonably assume they have been allies for much or all of the time jump. We can just as reasonably assume that they have only recently begun working together. But we don't know any of this for sure as far as I can tell. I don't remember if teen Alicent and Larys even were in a scene together, much less were besties.

We the viewers know that he is without morals or conscience because again, we are genre savvy. We can certainly reasonably suspect that his lack of morals and conscience manifested themselves in a way that Ali knew or should have known about them. But we can also reasonably suspect that Ali wasn't aware of that. There is an actual scene where she is shocked by what happened to support the notion that Ali wasn't aware of how evil Larys is. As far as I can remember, there has been nothing in the show to actually demonstrate to a character in the show that Larys is double-murder-my-family evil until this episode and his arranging for the double murder.

Indeed, within all of GOT, despite a lot of duplicity and ruthlessness amongst the characters, I would say precious few would arrange a cold-blooded murder of multiple immediate family members to get what they want.  Littlefinger, for instance, probably would. But I don't think the general fan base considers Ned Stark a dolt for trusting him (although perhaps we should). 

We know that Ali and Larys were set to have dinner privately, and it is (I think, anyways) a reasonable assumption that they have done so some number of times previously. It's certainly a possibility that they are sleeping together. It's certainly a possibility that she, he and Ser Criston are having three-ways every fortnight. But that a possibility exists doesn't make it guaranteed or even particularly likely.

One can interpret the "I started without you" a number of ways, including that the double-murdering-burning-his-own-family guy is just rude enough to be starting without the Queen at his first dinner with her as he would at the 200th.

We will see going forward what Ali will do. Perhaps she will feel trapped by Larys's move into being neutral toward him. Perhaps she will feel threatened by him both physically and in the blackmail sense since someone so willing to kill his own flesh and blood would have no reluctance to do, well, just about anything. Perhaps she reveal all along that her reaction was a facade and she will do whatever it takes to retain power. Perhaps she will change into a more "ends justify the means" kind of person than I think she is.

They had a scene together in the garden where he told her of Rhaenyra's moon tea delivery and spoke of her needing allies, I think it's a safe conclusion even if you do not.

The easy familiarity between them speaks volumes about how often they talk, have dinner etc etc, again that's my perception perhaps not yours.

I don't operate in possibilities, anything is possible. I work on probabilities and logic.

[proserpina65]

11 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Who said anything about foresee? I already stated previously that I'm not saying she should have known or to use your venacular; foreseen it - but... she should have suspected him capable of it and chosen her words more carefully - see the difference?

No, not really.  You're expecting her to be aware of an aspect of his character when it's just as easy to believe she didn't see it because she's not that clever.  He provided her with information on the down low and made some snide comments about his father.  That's a long way from arranging the murder of family members.

3 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

I don't operate in possibilities, anything is possible. I work on probabilities and logic.

I don't think your supposition about Larys and Alicent is necessarily logical.

We're not going to agree on this, so this is my last comment on this particular subject.

Edited September 28, 2022 by proserpina65

[Meredith Quill]

1 minute ago, MrWhyt said:

but why? there is a big step from "being a shady source of information" to "being capable of murdering his father and brother without remorse" and we haven't seen Larys give any reason for Alicent to suspect of him of having taken that step.

Clearly this is his character, who he is and probability dictates that that character would have been revealed in a myriad of ways over ten years of him in her service. Added to the fact he showed sneering disdain toward his father in their dinner conversation.  If you have someone working closely with you dealing in shady stuff, for over ten years and they do something so shocking to you, without you having any idea whatsoever about them being capable of it in the first place - you're either super naive at best or a dimwit at worst.

5 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

No, not really.  You're expecting her to be aware of an aspect of his character when it's just as easy to believe she didn't see it because she's not that clever.  He provided her with information on the down low and made some snide comments about his father.  That's a long way from arranging the murder of family members.

I don't think your supposition about Larys and Alicent is necessarily logical.

We're not going to agree on this, so this is my last comment on this particular subject.

No, I'm not necessarily expecting her to be aware he would do it, I'm expecting her not to be so shocked by the fact that he did. The fact that she was so shocked tells me she really isn't clever. I believe that is logical but we shall agree to disagree.

[MrWhyt]

8 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

. Added to the fact he showed sneering disdain toward his father in their dinner conversation. 

"showing sneering disdain" is not in the neighborhood of "able to murder family members without remorse"

[Meredith Quill]

17 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

"showing sneering disdain" is not in the neighborhood of "able to murder family members without remorse"

I've given my reasoning a number of times and don't think repeating myself will be helpful at this point. We shall beg to differ.

[magdalene]

On 9/26/2022 at 5:01 AM, Nicmar said:

I don't think he finished! 😆

Just what every teenage boy loves - to be interupted by his mother.

[Jack Shaftoe]

3 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

There is some confusion here.  The important person here is Laenor.  As long as Laenor holds to the fiction that those are his children  then nothing can happen.  It is his marriage after all. 

A lot of things can happen if enough people with power think (or pretend to think because it's a convenient excuse) that the children are illegitimate. A bloody civil war for starters. Laenor denying the rumours only makes him a laughing stock in the eyes of those inclined to believe them (and there seems to be plenty of those), We have been told many a time that many lords are itching for an excuse, any excuse to not have a woman on the throne and they have been given one on a silver platter.

[The Kings Foot]

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I think it's been clearly an open secret certainly among House Strong that the kids are Harwin's. Why Larys hasn't set some cunning plan in motion to spread the truth without implicating himself (or maybe he has and we haven't been shown the fruits of it yet) remains to be seen. 

Surely there's other options between "stand pat in the background and privately grouse about the affair that has been going on for (judging by Jace's age) at least 8-9 years" and "directly tell the King that the affair has been happening and hope that he doesn't banish or execute you."

.

Privately grousing is the middle . Like what is a cunning plan supposed to accomplish? There is no independent process that will be activated if Rhaenyra and Harwin are round naked in the middle of Kings Landing. There is no independent police, no independent court system, no media, no talk shows, no opinion polls and no elections.

For as long as Viserys is alive nothing can happen and anything more than private grousing is in fact treason. As he pointed in the hunting episode. A conspiracy can't even properly form to move after Viserys because Viserys is stubbornly refusing to die . imagine if a conspiracy formed when V collapsed at the wedding....and then ten years passed. They'd get fed up.

Now once V dies all bets are off. It's going to be like in the Godfather " If Don Corleone dies we lose half our political strength and the families may side against us just to end the war"  V is Rheanras  biggest strength. Others can't move til he's dead.

30 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

A lot of things can happen if enough people with power think (or pretend to think because it's a convenient excuse) that the children are illegitimate. A bloody civil war for starters. Laenor denying the rumours only makes him a laughing stock in the eyes of those inclined to believe them (and there seems to be plenty of those), We have been told many a time that many lords are itching for an excuse, any excuse to not have a woman on the throne and they have been given one on a silver platter.

A civil war yes. But not till V is dead. As long as V is alive it is treason to conspire against the Princess. See my reply above.

Also that's an excuse not to seat her children. It doesn't affect her personal right to the throne.

Finally so what if he's a laughing stock? As long as Laenor says those are his kids, what can they do about it? Go to family court?

Edited September 28, 2022 by The Kings Foot

[king of bullshit]

On 9/27/2022 at 3:40 PM, absnow54 said:

Rhaenyra has never implied she would take her brother's out if they stood between her and the throne, but Alicent no longer trusts Rhaenyra or her word, because she lied about her maidenhood and then got her father fired.

If ever there was an understandable lie, it was that one. Rhaenyra stood to lose everything. Both her marriageability status(which she cared about even if she didn't want to get married) and her status as heir. If not in the heat of the moment, with time to calm down, Alicent should have been able to sympathize.

And it would be odd for them to ever reach a situation where Alicent is asking for Rhaenyra's word. Most people wouldn't feel the need to swear their friends to abstinence re: murdering their kids; even those with kids that threatened their friend's claim to a crown.  

Alicent wasn't depicted as being as aware that Rhaenyra pressed Viserys into firing Otto but even if she did, its yet another act that Alicent should have been able to understand with time. He was relentless in trying to overturn her inheritance.

So neither the firing nor the lie explains for me, the leap in logic it takes to reach the notion  that your lifelong friend is now a threat to your kids.

The rationale is literally: my lifelong best friend is capable of lying to me about something that might potentially have grave repercussions for her if revealed, therefore, she must be capable of murdering my children. Any affection I've come to trust that she had for me is somehow now in doubt as well. 

[magdalene]

2 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

but why? there is a big step from "being a shady source of information" to "being capable of murdering his father and brother without remorse" and we haven't seen Larys give any reason for Alicent to suspect of him of having taken that step.

He seems to have a position at court that allows him access  to prisoners, including the torture of them.  Maybe that should have been a clue that he wasn't exactly Mr.Puppies and Roses?

[ybrik]

Yes there will be those who will use the rumors as an excuse to go against Rhaenyra but the opposite is true too. As long as Leanor keeps up the lie, than those already loyal to him and Rhaenyra will remain and also those who feel bound by their word when they swore to Rhaenyra in the first episode. 

Regarding Alicent and Larys, I think it is a bit much to say she should have known because of all the time they have spent together in the last ten years. I would say that is why it would have probably surprised her. She has probably complained about a lot of people and a lot of things to Larys and he hadn’t taken these actions before. So why would she assume this one time she complains about his father and brother that he would do something. 

I think that nothing has been done with trying to expose Rhaenyra yet because as bitter as Alicent is I don’t think she wants to go to the extreme she would have to go to to make it undeniable to the king. Because that could mean death for many people including Rhaenyra. She wants Aegon to be named heir officially and then Rhaenyra to go off without any incidents. I think that is why she is getting bitter because the longer the King denies the obvious the longer the realm has to hold their tongues, the greater the possibility Rhaenyra will be crowned after Viserys death. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

48 minutes ago, The Kings Foot said:

Privately grousing is the middle . Like what is a cunning plan supposed to accomplish? There is no independent process that will be activated if Rhaenyra and Harwin are round naked in the middle of Kings Landing. There is no independent police, no independent court system, no media, no talk shows, no opinion polls and no elections.

For as long as Viserys is alive nothing can happen

A civil war can absolutely happen while Viserys is alive. It even appeared to be happening already back in episode 2 but Daemon decided not to be an idiot for a change. All it would take is someone like Daemon deciding to try his luck and enough people flocking to his banners.

There might not be independent police and so on but a (pseudo) medieval king is also not a totalitarian dictator who can get away with absolutely anything. If he pisses off his biggest vassals he may well become another Richard II. Or Richard III if he prefers a heroic death on the battlefield. The existence of dragons makes this less likely but since not all dragons are under the king's personal control rebellions are still possible, as long as one gets dragonriders on his side.

Quote

Also that's an excuse not to seat her children. It doesn't affect her personal right to the throne.

The personal right to the throne in this setting hinges on little more than convincing enough powerful people to support a given claimant. Rhaenyra being seen by many as an adulterer who tries to put bastards on the throne is not going to help her cause one bit. In Game of Thrones, Stannis and Renly had no proof that Joffrey was a product of incest but this didn't stop many people from choosing to support their claims and help them overthrow their nephew.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Jack Shaftoe

[Stardancer Supreme]

4 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

True.  Presumably she'd be on Rhaenyra's side because of Laenor's "children", but I guess we'll see.

Rhaenys and Corlys will be on Rhaenyra's side because of Laenor. We will see if they accept the children.

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, king of bullshit said:

If ever there was an understandable lie, it was that one.

I can't decide if that is high praise or low praise, given your screen name, lol. :)

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, magdalene said:

He seems to have a position at court that allows him access  to prisoners, including the torture of them.  Maybe that should have been a clue that he wasn't exactly Mr.Puppies and Roses?

Let's unpack some assumptions here, any of which may be true or false or exaggerated.

A, Larys holds a court position that allows him access to prisoners. 

B. Prisoners are regularly tortured or have been tortured by Larys.

C. Alicent knows about A and B

D. The fact that Alicent knows about A and B should lead her to conclude that Larys is capable of a double-kin murder.

As to A, Larys could have gotten to the prisoners as because he has an official job connected to the prisoners, sure. But he could have just bribed guards or used other means to get to the prisoners he did as a one-time thing.

Even assuming that Larys holds a court position that allows him access to prisoners, that in of itself doesn't mean much. Presumably so does Harwin as head of the City Watch. I would imagine Cris or any of the Kingsguard would as well. 

As to B, we don't know if any prisoners other than these are tortured at all, or if all prisoners are tortured regardless and that's just the way Westerosi justice rolls these days. We saw that when Daemon headed the City Watch, at least for one night he was dishing out summary punishment to whoever he felt like. This sort of thing might be just regular treatment of prisoners generally. Or this literally may be the first and only time it has happened. Larys had a dirty deed done so he got people to do it while making sure that they were mute and could never connect what they did to him (assuming they were not literate.)

As to C, again, even assuming that what we saw in this episode is just a typical day in the office for Larys, we have been given nothing to suggest that Ali knows or even has reason to suspect that is how Larys rolls on a regular basis.

And finally, D: there is a lot of daylight between being willing to torture criminals and even to manipulate them generally for your own nefarious ends and being willing to remorselessly murder two family members.

[The Kings Foot]

4 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

A civil war can absolutely happen while Viserys is alive. It even appeared to be happening already back in episode 2 but Daemon decided not to be an idiot for a change. All it would take is someone like Daemon deciding to try his luck and enough people flocking to his banners.

There might not be independent police and so on but a (pseudo) medieval king is also not a totalitarian dictator who can get away with absolutely anything. If he pisses off his biggest vassals he may well become another Richard II. Or Richard III if he prefers a heroic death on the battlefield. The existence of dragons makes this less likely but since not all dragons are under the king's personal control rebellions are still possible, as long as one gets dragonriders on his side.

The personal right to the throne in this setting hinges on little more than convincing enough powerful people to support a given claimant. Rhaenyra being seen by many as an adulterer who tries to put bastards on the throne is not going to help her cause one bit. In Game of Thrones, Stannis and Renly had no proof that Joffrey was a product of incest but this didn't stop many people from choosing to support their claims and help them overthrow their nephew.

" People flocking to Daemon's banners"

The vassals support Viserys.  Nobody supports Daemon among the nobility when it comes to dethroning Viserys. V may be weak but no noble prefers Daemon to him. Even Corlys only allied with Daemon in order to get his dragon to help with the Stepstones. Daemon has some support among the people but that's not an army.

Also the realm has been at peace for decades . I think they said 70 years. Aside from Daemon and Corlys nobody has acted militantly in this series. And those two are not going to agitate for Otto Hightowers grandchild.

A civil war is obviously coming but for all his weakness Viserys commands enough respect and support that the vassals will till he's dead before making decisions for war.

Edited September 29, 2022 by The Kings Foot

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, king of bullshit said:

The rationale is literally: my lifelong best friend is capable of lying to me about something that might potentially have grave repercussions for her if revealed, therefore, she must be capable of murdering my children. Any affection I've come to trust that she had for me is somehow now in doubt as well. 

It's not about Rhaenyra and Alicent personally but the situation where they and their children are politically, just as Otto taught to her naive daughter.

Neither is capable to murder *now*, but in the future they can be in such a situation where the murder of the opponent may seem the only solution ("it's them or us").  

[Roseanna]

10 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

No, I'm not necessarily expecting her to be aware he would do it, I'm expecting her not to be so shocked by the fact that he did. The fact that she was so shocked tells me she really isn't clever. I believe that is logical but we shall agree to disagree.

Neither Viserys, Rhaenyra, Alicent nor Daemon are clever.  But if we look closely at the real history, most people aren't. 

 The good side of this rather simple show is that different interpretations about characters and their motives are still presented here. 

[jeansheridan]

3 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

civil war is obviously coming

I would love it if the show sidestepped a war. Wouldn't that be a lovely shocker? 

But I would also like for there to be a lot more reasons than Rhynaera is a woman. I want economic reasons mostly. 

I will be out when the war starts. I am so tired of war stories. 

[cambridgeguy]

5 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I would love it if the show sidestepped a war. Wouldn't that be a lovely shocker? 

No war = no show, it's as simple as that.  Cooler and more reasonable heads prevailing is great in real life, but good luck selling that to the network.  The Westeros Wing sounds like the premise of a good SNL sketch, not something worth 20 millions dollars per episode.

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

But I would also like for there to be a lot more reasons than Rhynaera is a woman. I want economic reasons mostly. 

It's not only that Rhaenyra is woman (also king's sons and grandsons can compete with each other, start a civil war or murder each other) but whether she is good in a power game (getting allies and securing resources) and is she able to govern the realm.

Let's take the scene in the council where the defense of the realm was discussed. Did she present any practical suggestions that could be realized with resources that were available? Or did she suggest even how to get more resources to be used for defense? Nope (yes, nobody else did either). What would any leader worth his salt say about a meeting that was just waste of time?

Your suggestion of "economic reasons" for war is good itself but the problem is how on earth to present them in the show. In this show they couldn't even deal with such a thing as the maintenance of soldiers. How long could the pirates hide in the cave was depended on how much food they had stored. An even more crucial was water: was there a well or fount in the cave? 

[paigow]

9 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Or did she suggest even how to get more resources to be used for defense? Nope (yes, nobody else did either). What would any leader worth his salt say about a meeting that was just waste of time?

Does the Bank of Braavos exist yet? If yes, the marketing department should be fired...

[ybrik]

Yeah it might be nice for more nuanced reasons for a war then just misogyny. However, this looks to be more of a civil war than a revolution or rebellion so those usually are started for one big reason (slavery, succession issues, religion) while revolutions and rebellions have usually a variety of issues that have created a portion of society that wants to bring down the whole government/kingdom.

[DigitalCount]

I do wonder if part of the reason Alicent was shocked at Larys's actions is because of the Westerosi culture regarding family. We saw a lot of this in the mothership; even when completely incensed with each other, killing family was a bridge too far. From a folklore/moral standpoint, kinslaying was a cursed act with consequences. There were two huge taboos they established: breaking guest right and killing family members. What Larys did is on par with or possibly worse than what Walder Frey did (or does in about 175 years, tenses are weird when it comes to prequels).

If Alicent is the type of person to get so mad at premarital sex and feels like she's taking crazy pills just when it comes to the Velaryon children, I imagine her head was exploding when she realized just what kind of degenerate nutjob she had in her corner. From her perspective this is not just a bad or evil thing, it's the worst crime a person could possibly commit. Maybe that's what she was reacting to. For us as an audience, he's a scheming and ruthless individual; for her, he's a demon who just emerged from the darkest depths.

[Constantinople]

8 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I would love it if the show sidestepped a war. Wouldn't that be a lovely shocker? 

But I would also like for there to be a lot more reasons than Rhynaera is a woman. I want economic reasons mostly. 

I will be out when the war starts. I am so tired of war stories. 

Much if not most of the wealth in a feudal society derives from the land so wars about who will be in charge of that land, and how ownership of it is passed from one generation to the next, are inextricably linked to the economy.

That said, I don't know the show will explore that angle particularly deeply.

[blackwing]

I know that there was a time jump, but I feel like I must have missed the part where they explained a few things:

1) At the end of Episode 5, the King (who had been coughing throughout the whole pre-wedding feast like he was about to die) collapsed and was coughing up blood.  Ten years later, and he apparently survived but he still seems to be coughing and on his last legs.

2) In Episode 5, Criston Cole killed Laenor's boyfriend and was utterly broken and assumed that he would be killed, so was about to kill himself.  Alicent tells him to stop and come with her.  I thought she was going to take him as her lover and protect him.  But ten years later, she apparently has not, he is just her personal guard/servant.  Wasn't he designated as Rhaenyra's protector on the Kingsguard?  And everyone seems to overlook the fact that he killed a man.  And Laenor's hysterical sobbing.  Some kind of explanation would have been nice.

3) How old is Aegon supposed to be?  I know there were some minor time jumps of a few years in episodes 4 or 5 or so, but I thought he was around 3 at the end of episode 5.  He looks like he's supposed to be about 18 now.

[absnow54]

37 minutes ago, blackwing said:

3) How old is Aegon supposed to be?  I know there were some minor time jumps of a few years in episodes 4 or 5 or so, but I thought he was around 3 at the end of episode 5.  He looks like he's supposed to be about 18 now.

From the show timelines I've seen, he's supposed to be 13 or 14. Episode 3 was his 2nd name day, and since then 11 years + some months have passed. The actor playing him is 20 though.

[proserpina65]

18 hours ago, magdalene said:

He seems to have a position at court that allows him access  to prisoners, including the torture of them.  Maybe that should have been a clue that he wasn't exactly Mr.Puppies and Roses?

Why would Alicent know that he would torture prisoners?  Simply having a position which allows him access isn't any indicator of his character.

18 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Rhaenys and Corlys will be on Rhaenyra's side because of Laenor. We will see if they accept the children.

She's also Rhaenyra's cousin - I forgot about that.  So yeah, most likely on her side.

4 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

No war = no show, it's as simple as that.  Cooler and more reasonable heads prevailing is great in real life, but good luck selling that to the network.  The Westeros Wing sounds like the premise of a good SNL sketch, not something worth 20 millions dollars per episode.

Plus, not enough flaming dragons in The Westeros Wing, I would imagine.

4 hours ago, ybrik said:

Yeah it might be nice for more nuanced reasons for a war then just misogyny. However, this looks to be more of a civil war than a revolution or rebellion so those usually are started for one big reason (slavery, succession issues, religion) while revolutions and rebellions have usually a variety of issues that have created a portion of society that wants to bring down the whole government/kingdom.

And an interfamily civil war at that.

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

And Laenor's hysterical sobbing.  Some kind of explanation would have been nice.

I suspect most, if not all, of the court knows exactly what that was about.

[Oscirus]

The two main antagonizers of this war are women, civil war seems to be more about power than sexism. Though admittedly Alicent is using sexist reasons to justify her reasons.

[gingerella]

On 9/28/2022 at 9:50 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

How do we actually know that Larys has been allied to Alicent for 10 years, as opposed to 5 years, 2 years, 1 year, a month? Where specifically in this episode was it shown? Or any previous one that they were allies back before the time jump? 

We can reasonably assume they have been allies for much or all of the time jump. We can just as reasonably assume that they have only recently begun working together. But we don't know any of this for sure as far as I can tell. I don't remember if teen Alicent and Larys even were in a scene together, much less were besties.

All of this. The show has shown us nothing of a long relationship.

[Cristofle]

19 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Rhaenys and Corlys will be on Rhaenyra's side because of Laenor. We will see if they accept the children.

I wouldn't be surprised if at least Rhaenys accepts the children. She is well aware of Laenor's "true nature", using her own words, so even if she is aware of the childrens' biological parentage, she is probably also aware Rhaenyra didn't get into this situation on her own. Also, she and Rhaenyra are cousins. As for Corlys, he may be more in denial than his wife, but somehow I can't see that moving him to Team Alicent/Aegon. 

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, blackwing said:

I know that there was a time jump, but I feel like I must have missed the part where they explained a few things:

1) At the end of Episode 5, the King (who had been coughing throughout the whole pre-wedding feast like he was about to die) collapsed and was coughing up blood.  Ten years later, and he apparently survived but he still seems to be coughing and on his last legs.

2) In Episode 5, Criston Cole killed Laenor's boyfriend and was utterly broken and assumed that he would be killed, so was about to kill himself.  Alicent tells him to stop and come with her.  I thought she was going to take him as her lover and protect him.  But ten years later, she apparently has not, he is just her personal guard/servant.  Wasn't he designated as Rhaenyra's protector on the Kingsguard?  And everyone seems to overlook the fact that he killed a man.  And Laenor's hysterical sobbing.  Some kind of explanation would have been nice.

3) How old is Aegon supposed to be?  I know there were some minor time jumps of a few years in episodes 4 or 5 or so, but I thought he was around 3 at the end of episode 5.  He looks like he's supposed to be about 18 now.

I get that Cole would not be Rhaes guard since he killed a member of her husbands wedding party.  He must be a constant reminder to Laenor. And an insult to the Velaryons?
 

I don’t understand that he is just okay now and protecting the queen.
 

 Killing Joffrey probably ok. Generally.
 

During a wedding party? Seems like a real breach of hospitality. 
 

[LanceM]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

All of this. The show has shown us nothing of a long relationship.

Yes it did as I stated above in episode 5 Larys met Alicent telling her she needed Allie’s and gave her the information about the King sending Rhaenyra the moon tea. Now do we know for sure they have been Allie’s in the 20 years since? No, but you can definitely infer it.

[blackwing]

46 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

I wouldn't be surprised if at least Rhaenys accepts the children. She is well aware of Laenor's "true nature", using her own words, so even if she is aware of the childrens' biological parentage, she is probably also aware Rhaenyra didn't get into this situation on her own. Also, she and Rhaenyra are cousins. As for Corlys, he may be more in denial than his wife, but somehow I can't see that moving him to Team Alicent/Aegon. 

It seems like an open secret at the court that the children are not Laenor's.  Why is Rhaenyra acting like this is mere innuendo?  When she and Laenor had their discussion before the engagement, she said she expected them to "do our duty by each other" and then they could "dine as they please".  He couldn't have forced himself to do his duty once or twice?  

I guess they didn't know much about genetics in Westeros.  They should be aware that white hair is very uncommon, and a trait that exists strongly in the Targaryen and Velaryion houses.  People should be wondering why two parents with white hair have a dark haired son.  There doesn't seem to be much concept of race in terms of skin colour in this world, so I doubt people would have said "the kid is 1/4 black, he should be darker", but it was very much all but stated when Alicent said to Laenor "maybe one of these days you will get a kid that looks like you".

Surely Rhaenys and Corlys are aware that their bloodline is not present in Rhaenyra's heir.  If it was important to Corlys that his bloodline sit on the Iron Throne, he really should be advancing the cause of Daemon and Laena's older daughter.

35 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I get that Cole would not be Rhaes guard since he killed a member of her husbands wedding party.  He must be a constant reminder to Laenor. And an insult to the Velaryons?
 

I don’t understand that he is just okay now and protecting the queen.
 

 Killing Joffrey probably ok. Generally.
 

During a wedding party? Seems like a real breach of hospitality. 
 

I don't get that either, it's like it's completely OK that he killed Laenor's boyfriend.  I assume that the Queen has protected him.  There's no doubt that he is a killer, but she won't let any harm come to him.  I am kind of surprised however that in the intervening 10 years, not once has Laenor thought to hire assassins to take his revenge.

Are we to assume that the third son is named Joffrey because if Laenor had his way, he would have named the first one Joffrey but that happened offscreen and tongues would have wagged, so he caved?  So now that the events are back onscreen, he doesn't give a crap anymore and doesn't care what people think?  Everyone is going to know that the baby is named for his dead lover.

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

Surely Rhaenys and Corlys are aware that their bloodline is not present in Rhaenyra's heir.  If it was important to Corlys that his bloodline sit on the Iron Throne, he really should be advancing the cause of Daemon and Laena's older daughter.

The best he can hope for is for Baela and Rhaena to marry either Rhaenyra's or Alicent's kids.  If Rhaenys, only child of the former crown prince, lost out to her cousin then there's no way those girls can leapfrog everyone in front of them unless Corlys plans to arrange an accident for every single person in the line of succession. 

[Raachel2008]

The real problem I see in the show now is that it is all very rushed and the focus is on a very few characters. We can theorize that Larys is a born sociopath or that his father and brother were bullies to him, but the truth is that we didn't get enough. This show sucks at the supporting characters. GoT was really good at fleshing out - even if they didn't stayed for more than two episodes - the folks that were not Jon, Cersei, Danaerys, Sansa, Tyrion, Jamie, etc.

Laena death would have been waaay more powerful if we had more of the amazing woman she seemed to be and the loss it meant for Daemon and their kids. Harwin seemed to really love his children and Rhaenyra apparently loved him, and I say apparently becasue we weren'tt allowed to watch whatever they had or even Rhaenyra's reaction to his death. I'm all for cutting the fat in GRRM work - and there is a lot of stuff that was rightfully cut in GoT - but this is pure nonsense. No way in all those years Rhaenyra and Alicent didn't manage to make alliances with other houses, or simply put, people.

And this, IMO, is one of biggest problems there. This show sucks at showing people that are not Rhaenyra, Alicent and, because both revolve around him, Viserys. They trully rushed those ten years, and that was such a mistake.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Raachel2008