S01.E05: We Light the Way

[Uncle JUICE]

9 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Yeah the gods woods are really pityfull. I noticed that from the beginning. It's kinda weird to me that it's there at all, since the Targs aren't worshipping the old gods, as far as I know, but if it is there and used by the royal family that frquently, it should be a lot bigger.

OOoof, what a great point. I would have to check into the book to see what sort of marriages pre-dated Viserys, but I definitely know Aegon I was not married to any Westerosi...so what is the godswood doing behind the castle walls in the first place? Aegon and Maegor built the entirety of the Red Keep, why would they put a heartwood tree in there if neither of them believed in the old gods at all? I know there are Targaryens who were indeed people of faith, but it was always to the Seven, not the old gods. DAMN IT!!! This is worse than the crabfeeder's sons of the harpy anachronistic mask! 

[Affogato]

21 hours ago, DigitalCount said:

Honestly it seemed like he was having performance issues earlier in the series with Mysaria too.

It has come up a lot. Maybe he’s only attracted to relatives. 

[Cristofle]

21 minutes ago, UnoAgain said:

While on diff boards I've been met with resistance to this take.... I saw it as.. Laenor and Rhae were having a ball smiling.. Dancing... Loving each other in their own way... Then joffrey pops up prob 80/20 split on what he said being a heads-up that they're in the same boat.. But everyone is a winner and a strong warning not to fuck it up for everyone as he was glaring daggers at rhae and laenor all night... So they're all happy and he with his bs "honor" and shame and rage.. Decided to just torpedo it all

It's definitely possible and as valid a theory as anything else. We didn't see the moment that Criston snapped. We don't know what he was looking at, what that final straw was. Was it Rhaenyra and Daemon looking ready to dry-hump each other? Was it Joffrey and Laenor, laughing and showing a level of affection Rhaenyra doesn't currently seem to have for him, right after Joffrey was describing a scenario Criston definitely doesn't want? Maybe it was all of the above. If he had noticed Daemon and Rhaenyra at all (they were hard to miss if he was watching Rhaenyra, lol), perhaps even he knew on some level that trying to kill Daemon in the middle of the wedding was not a good idea and he went for the perceived weaker party. 

Re: Daemon, I was honestly kind of surprised to hear the director say she DIDN'T think Daemon had gone to the Vale to kill Rhea, that it was a situation he was taking advantage of. Matt is great at ambivalent facial expressions, to be sure. Which can give a scene much greater depth than the script. But what was he even doing there, in full-blown Darth Daemon cosplay, if not to kill her? He certainly wasn't planning to consummate the marriage, lol. As wacky as it is to plan a murder on this person not just falling from her horse, but falling in a way that would paralyze and ultimately kill her, I still don't know what Daemon would have been doing there except to kill his wife. I think Daemon genuinely wanted to marry Rhaenyra in the last episode - whether for love or for power or for both is anyone's guess - and Viserys' main protest was "You're already married" and Daemon went "Welp, guess it's time to take care of that then."

[LadyChaos]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

That. 

It seems very romantic to give up everything for love, and stories usually end there. But one can never know beforehand if the relationship will be worth it. Or, even it is but you had other goals in life, you don't regret that you give them up.

And even if it was 'trruuueeee lloooovvveee' (insert gif of Anna yelling at Kristoff) ....Love isn't even enough....High born women were still expected to be educated to a certain point and Rhaenyra is a Princess and heir. She is highly educated, speaks multiple langauges, listens in on council meetings, has been taught strategy, and is learning to rule a country....and has shown she has the aptitude to do so. If she left and went across the world to live as a 'normal' person for love.....amoung people who weren't given the advantages she was and are likely illiterate and uneducated, and because their poor, also likely not living in the hygienic standards she's used to living too and who are plagued with sickness because of it....well, Criston grew up lowborn so it doesn't seem like a big deal to him....but eventually Rhaenyra will not only get bored because she is not intellectually stimulated and using her skills, but likely grow to resent him before her brother found her and offed her...and any kids they had together....

[paigow]

45 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Seemed to me they left a comrade out to dry by not stopping him before he committed murder.

Everybody Hates Joffrey is the next Flea Bottom street theater re-enactment

[LadyChaos]

16 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

I'm sure that played a part yes. However, to me she was mostly portrayed as upset because Rhaenyra wasn't 100% upfront with her about what happened that night.

I think Alicent's sudden change is a lot of things....one being that she sided with the king in the decision to dismiss her father, the fact that Rhaenrya lied to her, and (and I think this is most important) her father finally made her see that her children's lives are actually on the line. I think his remark about Rhaenyra being forced to kill her half-siblings to secure her throne, finally shook the naivety out of Alicent and start asking questions.

16 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

All this talk of Criston and I'm here for the Rhaenyra/Daemon chemistry.  Dang, who new incest could sizzle so? :D :P Seriously though, they do have chemistry in spades.  Hope it continues with the new actress, too.  

For real.....Matt Smith said in an interview that HotD was about: An incestous, volatile, sociopathic family in blond wigs.

And honestly....Im here for it. 😆

[FormerMod-a1]

27 minutes ago, Affogato said:

It has come up a lot. ...

if it could come up, there would be no speculation on this matter.    :-D 

[Stardancer Supreme]

2 hours ago, Cristofle said:

And I can't figure out what Joffrey was doing with such a seemingly prominent position in the march? Why is he living at the island? Does Corlys have him in some agreement made with House Lonmouth? If so, how he personally feels about the death of Joffrey (I agree, he won't miss him, to put it mildly) wouldn't matter. Corlys doesn't care about Criston. It would be more politically advantageous to immediately have him executed and then Corlys can go quietly cackle to himself about being rid of his son's lover, lol. Criston is common-born and Joffrey was not - I can't see that just flying here. Sure, we've seen Westerosi weddings go...well, real wrong, but there's no indication that Westerosi nobility EXPECTS the kind of violence at a wedding that the Dothraki do. 

That was bugging me, too! He stood out in the group of Velaryons in the worst way. I really want to know what Corlys and Rhaenys thought of what happened...

2 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

This is the question I just can't find a way around. WHAT ON EARTH would have allowed him to simply get up and leave? What he did is a very, very serious crime even in Westeros. You can't kill a member of a noble retinue who's been granted guest rights by the crown itself at a royal event, period. Add to that his membership in the Kingsguard, and the brutality with which this beating was administered, and now he is very, very clearly a security problem: you can't be that unstable AND charged with the protection of royal blood. Where were the other members of the guard to intervene, too? What could have possibly been the explanation? That this nobody from some salt soaked rock somewhere made a veiled threat to the princess? OK, fine, then arrest the guy and throw him in the black cells, right? Beating him to death before dessert is served is NOT the way. There isn't a sensible explanation that he'd be allowed to go think about it in the godswood. He'd have been detained immediately and very likely beheaded like ten minutes later. 

Seriously. Ser Criston wasn't the sole Kingsguard at the feast; there was at least 2 of them next to him and 3 more came in when the spectacle started.  So they just stood there and watched him kill a noble with the future King Consort's party? Especially after punching the future King Consort in the face? Why didn't Corlys immediately demand Criston's head for the insult to Laenor? I just needed to see what happened just before the wedding.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Stardancer Supreme

[KittyQ]

21 hours ago, Maurina said:

Okay this is neither here nor there, but can we talk about all the dancing in this episode? I don't remember hardly any dancing at all in GOT, and here we got full-blown 'courtly' dance routines. Which, let's face it, were pretty lame. And I get that the choreography of couples dance between Rhaenyra and Laenor was supposed to imply some kind of dragon moves, arms flailing around wing-like, but still it was just... well, lame is the only word that comes to mind.

Indeed! I imagined that the "dragon dance" was supposed to be an expected part of the overall ceremonial aspect of the banquet, but then everyone started dancing and they hadn't even eaten yet! I've been to a lot of weddings (here in the U.S. in the 20th and 21st centuries), and in all cases the dancing comes after the dinner (and drinking). How else to explain the appeal of The Chicken Dance? 

As a side note, the group dancing did seem kind of lame even by medieval standards. I think these kinds of dances are a little livelier, particularly at a celebration.

[Uncle JUICE]

6 minutes ago, KittyQ said:

Indeed! I imagined that the "dragon dance" was supposed to be an expected part of the overall ceremonial aspect of the banquet, but then everyone started dancing and they hadn't even eaten yet! I've been to a lot of weddings (here in the U.S. in the 20th and 21st centuries), and in all cases the dancing comes after the dinner (and drinking). How else to explain the appeal of The Chicken Dance? 

As a side note, the group dancing did seem kind of lame even by medieval standards. I think these kinds of dances are a little livelier, particularly at a celebration.

THanks, now I'm imagining the "MC" for the band they used trying to get these lame-o's up on the dance floor and hype the whole thing. I love thinking about the small folk in the orbit of the nobility and their lives every day!I Just give me a show about them. "Good morrow Danielys! You headed over to the shame walk today? I have been picking up horse apples all day, I'm going to absolutely pelt whatever noble is out there, for real!"

"Wait, did you say you have been picking up horse apples all day? What's wrong with you? And yes, I'll be there, duh."

Edited September 20, 2022 by Uncle JUICE

[PurpleTentacle]

On 9/19/2022 at 10:39 AM, RobertDeSneero said:

The thing about GOT was it was designed to make the audience root for someone (Daenarys) with the intention of hurting them by having them turn out to be awful in the end.  I really do think the point of the books and show was to do that emotional rug-pull and I marvel at the beauty of it. 

From what we know now: Unlikely. Seems like dumb and dumber pulled the Dany twist right out of their behinds.

Which would explain why in season 8 it seems like they pulled that twist right out of their behinds.

On 9/19/2022 at 2:35 PM, Lassus said:

Hasn't she been wearing various green dresses the entire series?  Wasn't she just wearing a different one this very episode while walking around?  No?  Am I just stupid?

Not stupid, but you may be colour blind. She was wearing a red and gold dress and later a blue one in this episode.

On 9/19/2022 at 3:03 PM, LadyChaos said:

Something someone pointed out, idk if its true or not without rewatching episode 101, but they said that Criston's true character was shown in the first scene he was in when he fought Daemon.....when they were went to hand to hand combat, he tried to stab Daemon when his back was turned

Yeah that's not true. Criston could have legally killed Daemon during that fight and didn't. Instead he asked him multiple times to yield until he finally did.

Edited September 20, 2022 by PurpleTentacle

[Lady S.]

6 hours ago, Cristofle said:

It's possible this is what the show intended - it was just shown really, really poorly. Alicent has never been shown onscreen to be remotely maternal, and after her first scene with Otto, there wasn't much indication she thought of her son again. She was fixated on Rhaenyra's sex life - and she was not happy when Criston revealed what happened. She did not give off the vibe of someone who now had some important leverage she needed to protect her son. She seemed outraged that Rhaenyra had lied to her. This idea that Alicent was mostly motivated by protecting her son was simply not highlighted well onscreen in this episode. 

I don't think this was what the show intended. As you say, it wasn't Otto's words that changed her mind but Larys's prodding and Criston's confession. If she was politically motivated, she would have listened to Daddy from ep 3 on. He's right that nothing he said is new information and should be obvious enough. (While leaving out that he's the one who put her in this dangerous position to begin with, forced to choose between her children and seeking her ex-bff's death. Even if he assumed Viserys would never keep a girl heir once he had a son, if he really thinks Daemon is a dangerous would-be usurper then his grandkids are targets for him too, regardless of Rhaenyra's status.) Otto is motivated by political ambition and self-interest, but he and Alicent are not the same. Her feelings about Rhaenyra are much more personal and it'd be less interesting if they weren't.

When Criston confessed, she looked like she wanted to cry, just as she did last ep after Otto left the royal bedroom after making his accusations. These reactions just do not make sense for someone only motivated by duty or even moral judgment. 

The envy is there and it's probably always been there, not just because Rhaenyra is a princess but because she has a father who cares more about her happiness than Otto ever would for his children. That was fine when she could admire Rhaenyra's boldness and maybe live vicariously through her, but those days are gone and she's ever more miserable in her gilded cage. And then once she marries Viserys, he still cares more about Rhaenyra's happiness and didn't take long to start taking his young broodmare for granted, laughing at her in front of Daemon last ep. She was still trying to make up and live through Rhaenyra's courtship, though Rhaenyra insensitively insulted her life. Now she's learned just how much more freedom Rhaenyra has, and that she bald-faced lied to her after they made up. I still say it's a fucking leap to go from there to maybe she's already out to murder my kids. (That would only makes sense if Rhaenyra seduced some old or ugly Kingsguard whose loyalty she could only want for more nefarious motives.) And Otto makes it sound like her loyalty to Rhaenyra helped get him fired, so if she was wrong about Rhaenyra's virginity then fuck her, time to side 100% with Dad, no more conflict of loyalties.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Lady S.

[Cristofle]

37 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

I still say it's a fucking leap to go from there to maybe she's already out to murder my kids.

Agreed on that front. Both options in front of Alicent have some level of risk (Otto makes it sound like only one does, which is just not true) but as it stands now, cleaving herself to Rhaenyra is probably a smarter move that either requires the least amount of certain conflict, OR might allow her to move quietly behind Rhaenyra's back. It is not smart to openly antagonize Rhaenyra AND Viserys the way she did with her entrance. She doesn't have that kind of support to go full-out like that yet.  Alicent is no Cersei here. She seems largely driven by emotion in this particular episode, after becoming increasingly miserable in the setting duty has put her in. 

[Bcharmer]

Quote

Rhaenys: A hunting mishap. She was thrown from her horse. Her neck and skull both crushed in the fall.

If her neck was crushed enough to paralyze her, how was she able to turn her head to the side a few times? Is that medically possible?

[paigow]

24 minutes ago, Bcharmer said:

If her neck was crushed enough to paralyze her, how was she able to turn her head to the side a few times? Is that medically possible?

Her neck and skull were crushed by Daemon after all her head turning

[RobertDeSneero]

3 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

From what we know now: Unlikely. Seems like dumb and dumber pulled the Dany twist right out of their behinds.

Given that Dany turning out to be evil was something that was already being speculated about, I don't think it was out of nowhere.

To bring it back to the current show, without going into spoilers, I can say that the book is written as a history surveying opposing views from biased sources, so there's a lot of wiggle room for how the show can go and who gets portrayed as more or less sympathetic. 

I feel like the show could be manipulating us to want to see Rhaenyra as the heroine of this tale--the rightful heir to the throne defending a claim against would-be usurpers is a standard fantasy fiction storyline--and she could end up being that heroine or be cast as a villainess or, this being the GOT universe, could be somewhere in-between, she could be an amoral political force of nature that does both good and bad things.  Will the audience feel betrayed if we have another show where a female lead portrayed as being a strong woman with heroic potential ends up being the bad guy who does unforgivable things?

Regardless, based on this episode, I lean towards Team Alicent.  I see Rhaenyra as someone who has the potential to be just as bad of a ruler as Daemon would be.

[UnoAgain]

14 hours ago, yellowfred said:

Look, I know a lot of other stuff happened, but I just have to say: it continues to be super weird to hear people refer to Rhaenyra and Laenor marrying as "finally uniting their families" when they are, in fact, second cousins. 

Also Rhaenys is Married to Corlys.. But ever since the lords of the realm.. Skipped over Rhaenys( and by association a very strong and  Ambitious Corlys of house Velaryon)  those two branches of Targaryen have been.. Strained. 

[RobertDeSneero]

5 hours ago, Cristofle said:

Re: Daemon, I was honestly kind of surprised to hear the director say she DIDN'T think Daemon had gone to the Vale to kill Rhea, that it was a situation he was taking advantage of. Matt is great at ambivalent facial expressions, to be sure. Which can give a scene much greater depth than the script. But what was he even doing there, in full-blown Darth Daemon cosplay, if not to kill her? He certainly wasn't planning to consummate the marriage, lol.

Daemon is the impulsive sort who is not much into planning.  Yes, he has schemes, but they are not often well thought out.  He probably stormed out of King's Landing when ordered to leave and didn't have a firm idea of what he was going to do in the Vale until he got there.  He probably had a lot of thoughts on the way there, some murderous.  Maybe he thought that his anger was enough to sustain an erection to produce heirs of his own.  Maybe he was going to walk off his anger and Rhea encountered him while he was still at the height of his rage.

I think it's better for the show if his motives remained ambiguous rather than telling us whether he went there with the premediated intent to kill.

[Sakura12]

I could see Alicent being jealous that Rheanyra's father cares about her happiness while hers doesn't. Otto even blamed her for his firing. Um, no dude that was on you. Viserys didn't even listen to her, that's why he sent the tea.

He didn't even have to do all that scheming. It would've been better to get more people to support Aegon as heir. Most don't want a women ruler anyway. He was just being extra and played his hand too much. 

[Stardancer Supreme]

In regards to Alicent's dress colors; she is supposed to wear House Targaryen colors at formal events (Red and Black) as befitting the wife of the Dragon.  She has worn blue dresses on her less formal occasions and around the Keep.  The green is the color of her former family house before marriage, House Hightower.   Showing up at a formal event in her daddy's colors and not her husband's? Sends a clear message that she is about to act up.

[Raachel2008]

6 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

I think Alicent's sudden change is a lot of things....one being that she sided with the king in the decision to dismiss her father, the fact that Rhaenrya lied to her, and (and I think this is most important) her father finally made her see that her children's lives are actually on the line. I think his remark about Rhaenyra being forced to kill her half-siblings to secure her throne, finally shook the naivety out of Alicent and start asking questions.

All that and I would add that there is a sort of love/hate thing going on there, too. I don't think for a moment that Alicent has romantic feelings for Rhaenyra, but she loved her friend - who, apparently, was her only friend. Said friend had way more freedom than Alicent, what with Viserys bending almost all rules for her, she could have a saying on who she was going to marry, which is something Alicent couldn't. There is a lot of envy going there too.

Daemon is like that brilliant student, best of the class, who is never going to make it really big because he lacks the discipline and the control to do so. He could have married Rhaenyra if he had three our four of Otto's brain cells.

Criston Cole is a dick; he fucked up Rhaenyra life for real, and committed murder for no reason other that he is a dick. He would never have lived ever after killing a guest honor in the royal wedding.  Any other other king would have killed him with his own sword, but it is Viserys.

[LadyChaos]

13 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

All that and I would add that there is a sort of love/hate thing going on there, too. I don't think for a moment that Alicent has romantic feelings for Rhaenyra, but she loved her friend - who, apparently, was her only friend. Said friend had way more freedom than Alicent, what with Viserys bending almost all rules for her, she could have a saying on who she was going to marry, which is something Alicent couldn't. There is a lot of envy going there too.

Daemon is like that brilliant student, best of the class, who is never going to make it really big because he lacks the discipline and the control to do so. He could have married Rhaenyra if he had three our four of Otto's brain cells.

Criston Cole is a dick; he fucked up Rhaenyra life for real, and committed murder for no reason other that he is a dick. He would never have lived ever after killing a guest honor in the royal wedding.  Any other other king would have killed him with his own sword, but it is Viserys.

I think there is some jealousy going on for sure....by their standards, Rhaenyra has a lot of freedom..compared to most women...I think she sees that, and wants it too.

[The Kings Foot]

On 9/19/2022 at 12:29 PM, cardigirl said:

For me it's more that Alicent thinks Rhaenyra lied to her, when she didn't. She swore she did not have sex with Daemon, which was true. That's all Alicent was asking about.

Unfortunately  this is modern day hair splitting.  Rhaenyra knew that the issue was her chastity, not who she lost her chastity to

On 9/19/2022 at 12:38 PM, Semiglued said:

I don’t feel sorry for Criston at all. Some people seem think she forced him into sleeping with her? I don’t think she even seduced him. She offered herself to him and, with deliberation, he decided to accept. He’s the one who made vows he broke, not her.

And I don’t think he killed dumb Joffrey because he felt threatened - he hated having the fact that he broke his vows thrown in his face and knowing that others knew. 

And he tried to rectify his breaking his vows by offering to marry her.   People are missing that Cole is actually trying to fix the problem the best way he knows how. First by marriage and then by confession.

What broke him was Joffrey saying "hey dude we're all going to continue breaking our vows and you should too"

On 9/19/2022 at 2:35 PM, ursula said:

The reaction to Rhaenyra and Cole is a good case study at how pervasive double standards around gender roles are. Because the sequence of events were clear and yet people still don't see it as at least sexual coercion.

She tricks him into her room. When he gives up trying to recover his helmet and he tries to leave, she shuts the door and bars it with her body. Then she uses the helmet to trick him into a kiss. He then tells her STOP. She smirks and starts taking off his clothes.

If their genders were switched - if it was the King's son that lured in a celibate female soldier into his room, locked her in, stripped her, and slept with her, would people still say "Well she went along with it eventually" or "she wasn't a virgin so what does it matter?" 

If that same King's son told the female soldier that he doesn't care she broke her vows, and when he's King, he can keep having sex with her for as long as he wants... will people think she's crazy for not being happy with that?

Pretty Much.  Also class differences.  We dont have nobility anymore so people are having a hard time understanding that Rhaenyra is the one with the power here not Criston.

On 9/19/2022 at 2:41 PM, Semiglued said:

It’s almost as if gender influences power dynamics even when the female is heir to the throne. In any case, not a big fan of people claiming things are “clear” just because they want to support their own interpretation. It’s a cheap way to argue. Criston deliberated his decision, his choice to sleep with her. 

And then he tried to fix it . Only to be told no.  We are going to continue breaking our vows. You remember how big vows were with Jaime and Jon Snow ? . I see Criston as a return to the same theme. 

On 9/19/2022 at 7:22 PM, SilverStormm said:

I think this is being viewed from a variety of perspectives.

My take is he didn't try to leave at all once he knew her true intentions. He told to stop feebly then apparently changed his mind once the initial shock of realisation had passed. There's no victim to blame here imo.

All I know is that if I were put in a situation that I wanted to free myself from I would do so by any means necessary. Hang what I should do - I would do whatever I had to do. Path of least resistance if that's what it took. 

But youre a 21st century  person brought up on  notions  of individualism, self actualization and freedom. Dude just swore to give up his life in the service of others.

On 9/19/2022 at 7:48 PM, Dac22 said:

Another thing is people seem to gloss over Rhaenyra's interaction with Daemon leading up to it. I'm not talking about getting it on in the brothel, but Daemon dropping the "we can do and take whatever we want" philosophy on her.

The show having Rhaenyra block the door and continue after he said no was deliberately showing her giving into that mentality. Yet people seem to miss that.

There is a character from Game of Thrones that uses a lot of the same lines Rhaenyra does.  And its a Queen who was not Daenerys. 

22 hours ago, snickers said:

Now Ser Cristin....where to begin....there's a reason this guy is reminding me too much of Jon Snow and with that "confession" along with killing Joffrey I lost all respect for him...I think he should be punished but it doesn't look like that will be happening

I see Criston as a reworking of  both  Jaime and Jon Snow. 

Edited September 21, 2022 by The Kings Foot

[magdalene]

9 hours ago, Cristofle said:

Re: Daemon, I was honestly kind of surprised to hear the director say she DIDN'T think Daemon had gone to the Vale to kill Rhea, that it was a situation he was taking advantage of. Matt is great at ambivalent facial expressions, to be sure. Which can give a scene much greater depth than the script. But what was he even doing there, in full-blown Darth Daemon cosplay, if not to kill her? He certainly wasn't planning to consummate the marriage, lol. As wacky as it is to plan a murder on this person not just falling from her horse, but falling in a way that would paralyze and ultimately kill her, I still don't know what Daemon would have been doing there except to kill his wife. I think Daemon genuinely wanted to marry Rhaenyra in the last episode - whether for love or for power or for both is anyone's guess - and Viserys' main protest was "You're already married" and Daemon went "Welp, guess it's time to take care of that then."

I said this in another post as someone with many years of riding experience planning to kill someone by horse isn't a sure thing  at all. Horses are not predictable and people don't fall off horses conveniently breaking their necks either most of the time.  Most of the time you end up painfully bruised or if you are unlucky breaking some bones. I watched this scene several times in slow motion and Daemon does not even touch the horse as far as I can tell, he holds up his hand, so the horse may have smelled his dragon, got frightened and reared up. It was also extremely reckless of him to get in front of her horse like that. He could have been killed very easily that way himself.   Don't get in front of a strange horse like this (unless it's some sweet elderly plodder) and don't get behind a strange horse either. Those hooves can and do kill people.

So when the director says he didn't plan this I can believe it.  Maybe he went to the Vale simply because his brother told him to and he had nowhere else to go.  But then he got very lucky when she broke her neck, very lucky indeed. But even then it looked like he was just walking away, leaving her to the elements, a very nasty thing to do to her.  But it was her taunting that made him finish her off with the rock. So a killing that wasn't planned, taking advantage of an opportunity.

[Bcharmer]

7 hours ago, paigow said:

Her neck and skull were crushed by Daemon after all her head turning

But she was paralyzed before that, right? He stepped on her arm to make sure she couldn't move. So, if she were paralyzed, it doesn't seem possible she'd be able to move her head at all.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Bcharmer said:

But she was paralyzed before that, right? He stepped on her arm to make sure she couldn't move. So, if she were paralyzed, it doesn't seem possible she'd be able to move her head at all.

Quadriplegics can move their head 

[Roseanna]

17 hours ago, Cristofle said:

The latter paragraph is true politically - but Alicent has yet to show any real skill in playing the game of thrones, so to speak. Again, if so, her main concern in the episode would have been that Rhaenyra's marriage to Laenor could strengthen her claim to the throne by uniting two powerful houses, and what Criston told her would have been either good news or at least ambivalent news. She was not behaving like a woman who was playing a political game and had political leverage. The actress wasn't showing that at all. She seemed personally outraged and offended that Rhaeyra had "lied" to her (well, misled her more than lied to her). For me, it can't just be that x motive is the smartest one practically and politically - Alicent needs to show onscreen that that's what she is invested in doing. The show did not handle that well if that was her purpose. 

As a good step-mother it was Alicent's duty to be concerned about Alicent's "virtue" and because she is by nature kind, she truly was, so of course she was offended that Rhaenyra didn't trust her. (On the other hand, if Rhaenyra wasn't sure that Alicent wouldn't betray her secret, especially as it would also have endangered her lover's life, it was natural to conceal the truth.) 

It's true that Alicent hasn't so far played the political game, but in this episode it was shown that she changed when Rhaenyra's "lied" to her and she father told her the true situation. The green dress was a declaration of war.

Actually, Alicent has already done the most important thing a woman can do: she has given birth to a son and thereby given a firm basis to a faction to challenge Rhaenyra's position. In the same time Rhaenyra has only moped. 

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, magdalene said:

But then he got very lucky when she broke her neck, very lucky indeed. But even then it looked like he was just walking away, leaving her to the elements, a very nasty thing to do to her.  But it was her taunting that made him finish her off with the rock. So a killing that wasn't planned, taking advantage of an opportunity.

As Daemon used a stone to smash his wife, all who found her would have known that it was no accident although they couldn't prove for sure that Daemen was the killer.

I would like to ask some things about the law in this fantasy world:

First, Daemon told that he now owned his wife's heritage and her wife's cousin looked astonished. So was there a law or custom that if the marriage was childless, the widow inherited, or did Daemon mean that he would take his late wife's fortune by force? 

Second, if all knew that the marriage wasn't consummated, was it even valid? 

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

Second, if all knew that the marriage wasn't consummated, was it even valid? 

The marriage was certainly treated as valid by every character in the show - after all, in previous episodes Daemon claimed he could marry Mysaria and Rhaenyra because polygamy is OK for Targs, not because he's technically single.

[cardigirl]

8 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

Unfortunately  this is modern day hair splitting.  Rhaenyra knew that the issue was her chastity, not who she lost her chastity to

I saw it as hair splitting by Rhaenyra. She said she did not have intercourse with Daemon, and could swear that it was true, because it was true. Alicent believed her, because she thought she had asked the right question. Rhaenyra outfoxed her at that point. 
 

[Cristofle]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Actually, Alicent has already done the most important thing a woman can do: she has given birth to a son and thereby given a firm basis to a faction to challenge Rhaenyra's position. In the same time Rhaenyra has only moped. 

To some extent, true up until this episode. Alicent is in an unusual situation in that Viserys has firmly refused to set Rhaenyra aside for Aegon, but until this episode, Rhaenyra's erratic behavior was leveling that playing field to some extent because she was refusing to make a smart political match/further her line. In this episode, she made a very smart political match - the son and heir of the wealthiest man in the realm. That has more potential to weaken Aegon's claim than anything Rhaenyra had done previously. It would have been smart for Alicent to focus on that, and to be using any information she got re: Daemon (or, as it turns out, Criston) and use that as leverage. But that wasn't what she was doing. She is emotionally overly invested in Rhaenyra and it's that personal sense of betrayal that was seen causing her to lash out. Nothing regarding her son, nothing regarding her place, nothing regarding her own power. This notion that Alicent was doing something clever here, or even that she was reacting primarily to the information her father gave her, simply doesn't match up with what actually happened in the episode. In the episode, Alicent massively overreacted to finding out Rhaenyra was no longer a virgin. She was acting like a scorned lover, not a mother trying to protect her son or strengthen his claim. 

[Roseanna]

11 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

She is emotionally overly invested in Rhaenyra and it's that personal sense of betrayal that was seen causing her to lash out. Nothing regarding her son, nothing regarding her place, nothing regarding her own power. This notion that Alicent was doing something clever here, or even that she was reacting primarily to the information her father gave her, simply doesn't match up with what actually happened in the episode. In the episode, Alicent massively overreacted to finding out Rhaenyra was no longer a virgin. She was acting like a scorned lover, not a mother trying to protect her son or strengthen his claim. 

I think that being betrayed by a friend can feel as hard, and sometimes even harder, that being betrayed by a lover because love is often fickle but friendship is supposed to be constant.   

Therefore, I don't regard it overreaction at all that Alicent found out that Rhyenera had used her trust to absolve her in the front of her father. It showed her that no matter how hard she had tried to make their relationship good again, Rhyenera was no longer her fried but somebody she didn't know.  

[Cristofle]

31 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Therefore, I don't regard it overreaction at all that Alicent found out that Rhyenera had used her trust to absolve her in the front of her father. It showed her that no matter how hard she had tried to make their relationship good again, Rhyenera was no longer her fried but somebody she didn't know.  

I mean...that didn't happen in reality. LOL. Alicent is apparently unfortunately massively overestimating her sway over Viserys. He didn't care for one second about anything Alicent had to say. I think he actually trusted her less by the end of the last episode because he became so fully aware of how Otto had manipulated him (and Alicent even heard him say that, before she ever went and talked to Rhaenyra, but I guess it didn't land like it should have). He didn't even bother to ask Rhaenyra what happened because he knew she was probably going to lie to him. He also sent her the tea because he was perfectly aware she was no longer a virgin. Alicent's beliefs and actions did not matter even 1% in the overall outcome. Not with Rhaenyra, not with Otto. Of course, that may be hard for Alicent to accept, that she has no power when it comes to Viserys or Rhaenyra, but she doesn't as of this moment. That she believed Rhaenyra was utterly irrelevant to how Viserys responded, and how Viserys responded was ultimately the only thing that mattered because he is the king. I think Alicent will get much better at playing the game of thrones and gathering her own power - she has to in order to survive - but I was not impressed by her reaction or her little stunt in this particular episode. I don't blame Rhaenyra for not telling her the truth - she was protecting herself in a ruthless world. It would have been dumb for Rhaenyra to confide in her. 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Cristofle

[Chicago Redshirt]

18 hours ago, Lady S. said:

I still say it's a fucking leap to go from there to maybe she's already out to murder my kids. (That would only makes sense if Rhaenyra seduced some old or ugly Kingsguard whose loyalty she could only want for more nefarious motives.) And Otto makes it sound like her loyalty to Rhaenyra helped get him fired, so if she was wrong about Rhaenyra's virginity then fuck her, time to side 100% with Dad, no more conflict of loyalties.

I dunno. It remains to be seen, of course. But I don't think one can fault Otto's logic.

I don't think Otto says or implies that Rhaenyra is already out to kill Aegon, but that she will inevitably get to that point.

We have been shown and told a few times that both among the lords and the smallfolk that there are at least some won't accept a woman as sole ruler of the realm. (The existence of the Queen Who Never Was, her telling Rhae Rhae that the realm won't accept a woman, the  King's Landing production of "She Ain't Never Gonna Be Queen Now," the desperation Viseyris has for a male heir among them). If/since that is the case, Otto's right to speculate that if/when Rhae Rhae takes the throne, people will revolt and seek out an alternative with a cock. 

Rhae Rhae is not going to meekly give up power. And this isn't something that can easily be worked out or compromised about. The words of House Targaryen are not Puppies and Rainbows. (I suppose given it's the wacky Targs, an Aegon/Rhae marriage might be possible, but it seems unlikely). At some point, it is most likely going to come down to Rhae needing to kill Aegon and any other male children Ali has, or Aegon is going to have to kill her. 

As for blaming Ali for his getting fired., I think that's got at least some fairness to it as well, even if it's not like Ali did anything wrong or could have done anything to fix it. Viserys specifically cited the notion that Otto set him up to fall in love with Ali (did it really take that dolt this long to figure it out?) and so part of the dismissal was bad feelings from that. We don't see what, if anything, Ali did to try to convince Viserys to keep Otto on as Hand. But giving her the benefit of the doubt that she did something, it wasn't enough. And from Otto's perspective, it could have certainly been more. Viserys is a pretty pliable idiot and I can't help but think that someone he loved could have convinced Viserys to keep Otto on or otherwise soften the blow.

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, Cristofle said:

To some extent, true up until this episode. Alicent is in an unusual situation in that Viserys has firmly refused to set Rhaenyra aside for Aegon, but until this episode, Rhaenyra's erratic behavior was leveling that playing field to some extent because she was refusing to make a smart political match/further her line. In this episode, she made a very smart political match - the son and heir of the wealthiest man in the realm. That has more potential to weaken Aegon's claim than anything Rhaenyra had done previously. It would have been smart for Alicent to focus on that, and to be using any information she got re: Daemon (or, as it turns out, Criston) and use that as leverage. But that wasn't what she was doing. She is emotionally overly invested in Rhaenyra and it's that personal sense of betrayal that was seen causing her to lash out. Nothing regarding her son, nothing regarding her place, nothing regarding her own power. This notion that Alicent was doing something clever here, or even that she was reacting primarily to the information her father gave her, simply doesn't match up with what actually happened in the episode. In the episode, Alicent massively overreacted to finding out Rhaenyra was no longer a virgin. She was acting like a scorned lover, not a mother trying to protect her son or strengthen his claim. 

I disagree.

Otto told her that Alicent had better be right that Rhaenyra wouldn't lie or deceive to protect her status as the future Queen or the lives of Alicent's children were in danger. In Alicent's next two scenes with Larys Strong and Ser Criston, she found out Rhaenyra lied to her to protect her status as heir.

What was Alicent to do at that moment? Viserys fired Otto for reporting on Rhaenyra and Daemon. If Alicent tells him about Criston and Rhaenyra, Viserys might use that as an excuse to discredit both stories, yet he still might do the Seven knows what to Ser Criston for "lying" about his daughter. After all, Viserys's actions have been unpredictable.

So her reaction made a lot of sense. And now she has new ally in Ser Criston.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

And now she has new ally in Ser Criston...

who has a giant target painted on his back and a long list of new-found enemies...

ETA: Hope Alicent buys him a helmet...

Edited September 21, 2022 by paigow

[Meredith Quill]

11 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

But youre a 21st century  person brought up on  notions  of individualism, self actualization and freedom.

Says who? Maybe I'm a time travelling alien from Gallifrey and you fell into my clever trap! 😉

[PurpleTentacle]

1 hour ago, SilverStormm said:

Says who? Maybe I'm a time travelling alien from Gallifrey and you fell into my clever trap! 😉

Get out of here, Master! Your traps aren't clever but convoluted messes!

[proserpina65]

On 9/18/2022 at 10:14 PM, Lady Whistleup said:

I know this is the last episode for Milly Alcock and Emily Carey and I just want to give both ladies plaudits.

I'm actually glad to see the last of Milly Alcock.  I think she's been incapable of giving Rhaenyra any layers other than sulky spoiled brat.

I'll be honest, other than the third episode, I've been mostly bored.    I'm here for the dragons and we've seen damned little of them.  The political wrangling and hand-wringing over who'll inherit the throne was always the least interesting part of GOT to me, and HOD has been nothing but that.  Just get to the Dance of Dragons already!

At this point, the only characters who even vaguely interest me are Alicent and, to a lesser extent, Daemon, although I wish they'd just let him own his evilness and have fun with it.  Mopey evil is the least interesting evil.

Alicent is a complicated character.  It seems like she'd subjugated any personal ambitions she had for herself or her children in the name of keeping the peace.  Now, though, she's wised up to the danger her children will be in when Viserys dies and a large number of the lords decide to renounce their support of Rhaenyra as heir in favor of Alicent's son.  Otto might have been the worst, but he's 100% right about their lives being dependent on Rhaenyra's favor.  Sure, Alicent's stabbing Rhaenyra in the back to a certain extent, but she's trying to protect her family.  And I loved her coming to the feast in a gown of Hightower colors - that made quite the statement about her priorities now.

Ser Cristan and Laenor's boyfriend were both naive as hell.  I sort of got Joffrey's (I think that was his name?) motivation but still, he knew nothing about Cristan and approaching him that way was just stupid.  And Cristan's motivation for killing Joffrey is a mystery to me.  Maybe it would help if the actor had had any chemistry with Milly Alcock, than I might've bought his being all schmoopy over Rhaenyra, but since they had less chemistry than dirt, his actions were bafflingly idiotic.

We'd better get some serious dragon action next week, damn it.  Hell, if I wasn't getting a couple of months of free HBO, I'd have been out after ep. 2.

[proserpina65]

On 9/18/2022 at 10:20 PM, cardigirl said:

I guess they can't throw a wedding without some tragic consequences. 
 

Phew! 

Is it really a wedding in Westeros if no one dies?

On 9/18/2022 at 10:49 PM, magdalene said:

I am glad Lady Rhea's horse lived. I have my priorities.

Me too.

On 9/18/2022 at 10:49 PM, magdalene said:

What game is Lionel Strong's youngest son playing?

Chaos is a ladder.

On 9/18/2022 at 10:57 PM, Athena5217 said:

I was excited we finally got to meet Daemon’s wife, but that didn’t last long. Too bad. She seemed interesting, and she wasn’t wearing a terrible wig

Yep.  She could've been an intriguing character and she obviously knew about Daemon's impotency problems.

On 9/18/2022 at 11:14 PM, Stardancer Supreme said:

So does Daemon clearly have issues with his virility or he just didn't want to consummate his marriage?

Definitely issues.  With Rhaenyra, it was when she started to take some initiative in their encounter, so it seems like it's strong women who are the problem for him.

On 9/18/2022 at 11:16 PM, magdalene said:

Tastes will differ.  NCW could be very good when he was given good material but I have seen Matt Smith excel in lots of roles over the years and he is no slouch in the charm department.  I think he and Paddy are the highlights of this show so far. They both have a lot of range as actors.

It's definitely the material.

[cambridgeguy]

22 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

At this point, the only characters who even vaguely interest me are Alicent and, to a lesser extent, Daemon, although I wish they'd just let him own his evilness and have fun with it.  Mopey evil is the least interesting evil.

I’m not sure how much moping he has left.  That giant grin he had when he strolled into the wedding was him embracing his chaos.  Viserys does enough moping for both brothers, and his days are obviously numbered.

[proserpina65]

On 9/19/2022 at 7:39 AM, Haleth said:

Alicent doesn't even like her kids but she's going to go to war if the boy isn't named heir?

I've seen no evidence that she doesn't like her kids.  And I didn't interpret it as her going to war if he isn't named heir.  I interpreted it as her being willing to go to war to protect her children from the consequences of Viserys' death when inevitably many of his lords renounce their promise to support Rhaenyra as heir and line up behind Alicent's son instead.  Otto was absolutely right about that.  I mean, he's utter shit, but sometimes he's right.

41 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

I’m not sure how much moping he has left.  That giant grin he had when he strolled into the wedding was him embracing his chaos.  Viserys does enough moping for both brothers, and his days are obviously numbered.

That is what I'm hoping for, that Daemon's moping days are over.

[proserpina65]

On 9/19/2022 at 12:38 PM, Semiglued said:

I don’t feel sorry for Criston at all. Some people seem think she forced him into sleeping with her? I don’t think she even seduced him. She offered herself to him and, with deliberation, he decided to accept.

I don't feel sorry for him, but she definitely was the aggressor in that sex scene and I do think she coerced him.  I really don't think he felt he had any right to say no to her given their respective positions.

On 9/19/2022 at 12:57 PM, LoveIsJoy said:

Unpopular opinion I know, but I’m glad that they’ll be switching the actor playing Rhaenyra.  She seems to be an okay actress, but there’s something about her facial expressions that grates.  Especially that half-opened mouth thing she does.  Her eyes look vacant (to me) and she seems confused, dopey or something.  I don’t know, she’s just never popped on the screen for me like the actresses who played Daenerys, Arya, Mellisandra, Margaery Tyrell, Circe, etc.  

I do really like the actress playing Allicent and will miss her.  This version of Rhaenyra, not so much! Sorry.

I'll gladly sit at this table.  I've been put off by Milly Alcock since the first photos I saw from HOD.

On 9/19/2022 at 2:30 PM, aquarian1 said:

Does she even like her kids?  She always seems so put off when holding the baby and ready to give her back to the nanny.

Eh, it was a fussy baby so I don't think it means much that she hands it back to the nanny.  That's how nobility tends to raise their children.  Doesn't mean they wouldn't care if they were killed.

On 9/19/2022 at 2:31 PM, Lassus said:

This is a great point, because Milly Alcock really does have this in spades.

I think they have whatever the opposite of chemistry is.

On 9/19/2022 at 2:41 PM, Semiglued said:

It’s almost as if gender influences power dynamics even when the female is heir to the throne. In any case, not a big fan of people claiming things are “clear” just because they want to support their own interpretation. It’s a cheap way to argue. Criston deliberated his decision, his choice to sleep with her. 

It's just as much coercion when it's a woman doing it.  Sure, he had some choice, but she was a princess and he was a member of her guard - that's a huge difference in power.  Plus, he tried to stop her twice but she ignored him.  That's on her.

[CountryGirl]

I still need to catch up on the thread, but some thoughts on the latest episode:

This is the episode that really made me sit up and take notice and fail to think about Got whatsoever, especially the scene where I was concerned we were about to have a Red Wedding situation on our hands. In the end, only one person ended up dead, so I'd say that's a good day in Westeros.

I'm surprised at Daemon's restraint in waiting this long to kill his wife, although she gave, in words, as good as she got. He really is such a magnificent bastard.

Ser Criston can kindly fuck off now. So pretty but so fucking stupid and he showed his true colors, which have less to do about twu wuv for Rhaeneyra and more about his man pain over breaking his Kingsguard vows. I can never forgot how he struck Daemon in the back in the tourney fight. And him expecting Rhaeneyra to turn her back on the crown when she IS the crown was just stupid.

Him betraying Rhaenerya by insta-blabbing when Alicent didn't even ask the question. And WTH to the Knight of Kisses being a dipshit and telling Criston about the marriage of convenience details. Somewhere, GoT Joffrey is offended that such a clueless chucklefuck has his name.

Alicent can also go fuck herself and dry up the fake tears about Rhaeneyra sleeping with Criston which is a million kinds of rich considering she went behind her BFF's back for months, seducing said BFF's own father. While I think there was initial shock from Alicent when she learned of Otto's plans for her and the king, I think she chucked those thoughts five seconds later when she realized she could become queen. Honestly, I think she is jealous of hell that she made her bed with an old, sick man while Rhaeneyra gets a literal knight in shining armor to bed.

I see we have a new Littlefinger/Varys in Larys Strong. At least that's the vibe I'm getting.

We have the time jump next week (and supposedly, this is the episode that, if you're a fence-sitter on the show, will make you a fan). I will miss Milly Alcock (younger Rhaenerya) and, even though I don't like her character anymore, Emily Carey (Alicent).

[Haleth]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

I've seen no evidence that she doesn't like her kids. 

Oh my goodness. Did you ever look at her expression when she’s handling her babies?  Torture. She can’t wait to hand them over to the nurse.  Sure, I get it, being a teenager stuck with 2 babies and a geriatric husband isn’t the life she dreamed of, and no, she doesn’t want anything bad to happen to her kids, but declaring war is more about her power than maternal feelings. 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Haleth

[Meredith Quill]

2 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Get out of here, Master! Your traps aren't clever but convoluted messes!

Spoiler

[proserpina65]

On 9/19/2022 at 3:15 PM, Lassus said:

He didn't want to fuck Mysaria because he was dealing with wanting to fuck Rhaenyra

I didn't get that feeling from the scene with Mysaria in the brothel.  I got more of a "can't finish this" vibe.

On 9/19/2022 at 3:31 PM, Uncle JUICE said:

Where every noble feast they're like "Look, everyone's doing that weird slow dragon dance, I don't PERSONALLY get it, but if we DON'T do it, then we might look like the weird family who doesn't 'get' it, right?

It was the Electric Slide of its day.

On 9/19/2022 at 3:52 PM, aghst said:

So why does Otto and now Alicent object?

Otto isn't just saying there will be opposition to a woman ascending to the Iron Throne.  It sounds like he will be one of the leaders of that opposition.

(NB: I'm basing this on my knowledge of medieval history, specifically Henry I of England, who declared his intent to have his daughter Matilda inherit the throne after the death of Henry's only legitimate son in the White Ship disaster.)

I can easily see most of Viserys' nobles recanting their promises of support for Rhaenyra after the king dies.  As Rhaenys has said, they'd rather put the world to the torch than have a woman rule them, and with Alicent's son, they have a legitimate alternative who isn't crazy-ass Daemon.  Yes, I fully see Otto leading that opposition, but he's not wrong about the precarious situation Alicent and her children would be in if Rhaenyra ascended the throne, precisely because Rhaenyra isn't stupid and would see those children as threats to her reign.

So why now?  Because with Otto's dismissal, he had no more shits to give about appeasing Viserys and so was very blunt with Alicent about his view of the situation.  Which made her seriously worried about her children's future.  It took her awhile, but she's decided to be proactive, and she's likely to get support from a lot of those nobles for her son's claim.

On 9/19/2022 at 3:54 PM, Avabelle said:

That scene of her rocking the crying child while looking completely detached was just sad. I think she’s ultimately a good mother but I don’t buy at this moment she’s driven by any great devotion to them.

Different people interpret that differently.  I have no problem believing she's acting out of concern for their survival.  And her own, for that matter.

On 9/19/2022 at 6:17 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

Also, Viserys needing to basically beg Corlys to agree for Laenor to marry his daughter when she is by far the best match any man in the kingdom to make was bizarre. They try to make everything so dramatic and tense that it turns into stupid way too often.

Corlys was pissed off by Viserys' lack of support for the war in the Stepstones.  He would've ignored any other overtures.  The king absolutely had to go there and beg.  A strong king wouldn't have, no, but I think we can all agree that Viserys is not a strong king.

On 9/19/2022 at 6:29 PM, SilverStormm said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the first two times he said no/wanted to leave were both when he thought she was just messing/being playful with him - before he realised her true intent once she kissed him. Once he realised what she actually wanted, he hesitated a little but there were no refusals. 

I said elsewhere, regardless he had options - if he was concerned about offending her by turning her down flat, pretend to be unwell, double over in sudden pain, develop cramp - do something other than break your damn vow... he made his choice.

To me, the situation was no different from that of a male boss refusing to take no for an answer from a female subordinate.  This was coercion.  The genders being switched change nothing.  But obviously we aren't going to agree on it, so I'll leave it there.

[Meredith Quill]

2 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Yes, I fully see Otto leading that opposition, but he's not wrong about the precarious situation Alicent and her children would be in if Rhaenyra ascended the throne, precisely because Rhaenyra isn't stupid and would see those children as threats to her reign.

So why now?  Because with Otto's dismissal, he had no more shits to give about appeasing Viserys and so was very blunt with Alicent about his view of the situation.  Which made her seriously worried about her children's future.  It took her awhile, but she's decided to be proactive, and she's likely to get support from a lot of those nobles for her son's claim.

By the same token, if Aegon became king, he'd pose the exact same threat to Rhaenyra and any - particularly male - children she may have.  This is a two-sided coin.

[Avabelle]

4 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Yes, I fully see Otto leading that opposition, but he's not wrong about the precarious situation Alicent and her children would be in if Rhaenyra ascended the throne, precisely because Rhaenyra isn't stupid and would see those children as threats to her reign.

So why did Otto put Alicent and his future grandchildren in that predicament by whoring her out to the king in the first place? His sudden concern comes a bit too late and I wish Alicent could see that.

[Meredith Quill]

1 minute ago, Avabelle said:

So why did Otto put Alicent and his future grandchildren in that predicament by whoring her out to the king in the first place? His sudden concern comes a bit too late and I wish Alicent could see that.

I know why.

The only reason he promoted Rhaenrya as heir in the first place was a machination to oust Daemon from being next in line. He never gave a shit about Rhaenrya, she was merely a placeholder in his mind until a son was produced, hopefully by his daughter. Therefore, his assumption was that Viserys would cast aside Rhaenyra and name any future firstborn son as his new heir... I guess Otto never heard the saying about the 'assume' problem. He not only played himself but created what's to come...dipshit.