S01.E05: We Light the Way

[Roseanna]

30 minutes ago, king of bullshit said:

As for the thing about Criston being forced to pull his sword back; if true, it's kind of odd that the show creators assumed we would all just know that without explanation. What are the odds that the majority of viewers instantly understood the disrespect inherent in such an action?

Never heard it. The fight scene was too confused.

[LadyChaos]

I kind of wonder....in Crispen's thoughts at the moment when the Queen asked him...if, by some chance Rhaenrya might get denounced and then she might be persuaded to run away with him if the thing he viewed as the reason she wouldn't was taken away.

[Josh371982]

On 9/18/2022 at 10:53 PM, magdalene said:

No, I think there is more to it.  I think maybe deep down Alicent was in love with Rhaenyra and that is why she feels so betrayed that Rhaenyra lied to her about everything.

Well Alicent went behind her back and seduced her father, lying to her until the truth was revealed so she can take a seat. And from what it looked like Rheanrya was in love with her 

[Dac22]

On 9/22/2022 at 12:05 PM, proserpina65 said:

A few probably would.  Many others would weigh the advantages and disadvantages of each side and choose accordingly.  We've already seen that most of the lords are not like Ned Stark.  Hell, not all Starks are like Ned.

Another thing to consider is Rhaenyra hasn't exactly done herself any favors to gain support so far.

She not only mocks two potential suitors last episode, but she then leaves without meeting the rest despite all of them traveling there specifically to meet with her. I also believe she was shown to be rather condescending to the noblewoman at the hunting party.

At least trying to pretend to appease these people would help gain support when she takes over.  

On 9/22/2022 at 2:17 PM, king of bullshit said:

The existence of their dalliance in spite of those consequences might have led Joffrey to believe (somewhat understandably) that Criston was at least a little like him. And his observance of cuntstruck stares solidified his deductions I guess.

Which, again, I think would be incredibly stupid on Joffrey's part.

There is absolutely no need for him to do what he did if he had completely noble intentions because it would already work out like he wanted. The best outcome for Joffrey approaching Criston is he screws everything up for himself, Laenor, and Rhaenyra.

So, again, I just find it hard to understand why Joffrey would do it if his intentions were completely noble. What he cares about is Laenor's safety, not Criston's feelings. So I don't think he went over there to do it for the good of Criston.

Edited September 25, 2022 by Dac22

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, LanceM said:

I think Lady Jeyne Arryn will likely support Rhaenerya for the simple fact that Rhaenyra is Aemma Arryn’s daughter.

Maybe.  Hopefully we'll see before the end of this season.

1 hour ago, king of bullshit said:

The existence of their dalliance in spite of those consequences might have led Joffrey to believe (somewhat understandably) that Criston was at least a little like him. And his observance of cuntstruck stares solidified his deductions I guess.

He perhaps immediately shared his own secret to pacify the only assumed anxieties he felt Criston might have. I.e. fear of his secret ever getting out and fear of Rhaenyra's new betrothed becoming an obstacle to his and her's continued relationship. Hell, maybe he assumed Rhaenyra had already caught Criston up as Laenor immediately did with him. I can see that train of thought I think.

Or Joffrey, somewhat like a namesake a few hundred years later, is a stupid c***.

[paigow]

Criston is not a Kingslayer, but he should be in that book Brienne was editing as Doucheslayer.

[Meredith Quill]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Criston is not a Kingslayer, but he should be in that book Brienne was editing as Doucheslayer.

Correction: C***-struck Doucheslayer

[UnoAgain]

21 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Correction: C***-struck Doucheslayer

Another option... Sir Cinnamon the C***-struck

[Raachel2008]

4 hours ago, Dac22 said:

Another thing to consider is Rhaenyra hasn't exactly done herself any favors to gain support so far.

She not only mocks two potential suitors last episode, but she then leaves without meeting the rest despite all of them traveling there specifically to meet with her. I also believe she was shown to be rather condescending to the noblewoman at the hunting party.

At least trying to pretend to appease these people would help gain support when she takes over.  

And not only that but, as far we were told, Rhaenyra has done nothing to show the realm that she would be a good queen, a queen worth breaking tradition. She is seen as a brat, and yes had she been a man etc etc etc et al, but she is not. She sulked, she moped, she didn't used her vastly soft power to ingrain herself as a major player in Westeros. She didn't manage to be a real part of the council, she didn't manage to make Viserys give her some position  or whatever - and he would, we know he would have done that. So, all that time - 4? 5 years since her mother has passed and her father decided she was the heir, Rhaenyra did not move an inch to make that crown something more real. She is trully resting her pretty head at her pillow at night thinking that her father's word will be the law once he pass, something Rhaenys (who was loved and considered worthy) already spelled for her that won't happen.

Rhaenyra is dumb. 

Edited September 22, 2022 by Raachel2008

[LanceM]

17 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

And not only that but, as far we were told, Rhaenyra has done nothing to show the realm that she would be a good queen, a queen worth breaking tradition. She is seen as a brat, and yes had she been a man etc etc etc et al, but she is not. She sulked, she moped, she didn't used her vastly soft power to ingrain herself as a major player in Westeros. She didn't manage to be a real part of the council, she didn't manage to make Viserys give her some position  or whatever - and he would, we know he would have done that. So, all that time - 4? 5 years since her mother has passed and her father decided she was the heir, Rhaenyra did not move an inch to make that crown something more real. She is trully resting her pretty head at her pillow at night thinking that her father's word will be the law once he pass, something Rhaenys (who was loved and considered worthy) already spelled for her that won't happen.

Rhaenyra is dumb. 

Rhaenyra is on the small council as was established in episode 4 and given that she has shown no signs of being scared to speak her mind we can assume that she has been giving her input in the governance of the realm. As to how she got on that small council we don’t know. Did she demand it from her father because she heir or dud Viserys do that on her own? We don’t know because the writers for some reason decided not to show it.

Edited September 22, 2022 by LanceM

[Meredith Quill]

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

And not only that but, as far we were told, Rhaenyra has done nothing to show the realm that she would be a good queen, a queen worth breaking tradition. She is seen as a brat, and yes had she been a man etc etc etc et al, but she is not. She sulked, she moped, she didn't used her vastly soft power to ingrain herself as a major player in Westeros. She didn't manage to be a real part of the council, she didn't manage to make Viserys give her some position  or whatever - and he would, we know he would have done that. So, all that time - 4? 5 years since her mother has passed and her father decided she was the heir, Rhaenyra did not move an inch to make that crown something more real. 

...yet.

[Raachel2008]

1 hour ago, LanceM said:

Rhaenyra is on the small council as was established in episode 4 and given that she has shown no signs of being scared to speak her mind we can assume that she has been giving her input in the governance of the realm. As to how she got on that small council we don’t know. Did she demand it from her father because she heir or dud Viserys do that on her own? We don’t know because the writers for some reason decided not to show it.

Speak her mind and be a real part of that council are too different things. She was part of the council and was basically serving them coffee before as Rhaenys pointed to her. My point is that she didn't spend these years working towards her goal of sitting in that throne, like more smart people would. Anyway.

[LanceM]

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

Speak her mind and be a real part of that council are too different things. She was part of the council and was basically serving them coffee before as Rhaenys pointed to her. My point is that she didn't spend these years working towards her goal of sitting in that throne, like more smart people would. Anyway.

Did you not see the 4th episode? She is no longer a cup bearer but has seat at the table, meaning she is now part of the small council and is now able to voice her opinions like any other member of the small council. When she was a cup bearer she was just that a cup bearer (not a member of the council)

Edited September 23, 2022 by LanceM

[Dewey Decimate]

On 9/21/2022 at 4:58 PM, CountryGirl said:

Harwin can hoist me like a sack of potatoes over his shoulder anytime.

Oh hell yes, indeed, thank you, Ser, may I have another!! Now that Criston has gone full stupid summer child with his fairy tale dreams and rage-ahol murderousness, Harwin Strong will happily take over the needed Ser Swarthy Sex on a Stick quota.

In the faintest defense of Criston's seemingly idiotic confession to Alicent, though, upon rewatch, I'm pretty sure that she never explicitly asked him about Rhaenyra and Daemon making the dragon with two backs. Her delicate questioning started with "on the night of Daemon's return" and did not mention anything else about Daemon, only that Rhaenyra is presumed to have gotten her freak on. I could completely see a guilt-ridden Criston assuming that Alicent knows about his sexytimes with the princess and figuring that a voluntary confession might save him from the worst.

As for the CSI-level dissection of the rather confusing dance floor melee, when Joffrey finishes his fateful convo, it seems he kind of gives Criston a slap on the back, right before the odd pelvic area close-up. Not even aware of the faux pas of forcing a knight to move his (or her, thank you, Brienne!) hilt, my take was that it might be a soupcon of homophobia. Did Joffrey brush up against Criston, which coupled with the too-familiar back slap pushed him further to the edge? NOT an excuse, mind you, but possible? Still doesn't demystify how in the world he was allowed to traipse away to the godswood. With enough time in between for a quickie wedding that Alicent could attend and then teleport over to stop him from going self-stabby.

[Raachel2008]

1 hour ago, LanceM said:

Did you not see the 4th episode? She is no longer a cup bearer but has seat at the table, meaning she is now part of the small council and is now able to voice her opinions like any other member of the small council. When she was a cup bearer she was just that a cup bearer (not a member of the council)

I did, and I still say we were not shown or told anything  that prove me she actually did any towards that crown. It is okay, though. We have a few sesons to go.

[jeansheridan]

2 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

I did, and I still say we were not shown or told anything  that prove me she actually did any towards that crown. It is okay, though. We have a few sesons to go.

A measured response! I do think ep showed she had matured. She managed her betrothal fairly well. She was doing the marriage celebration properly. She was rightfully annoyed with Daemon. She apparently understood the need to marry quickly. But, and a big but, she utterly misread her lover. And she didn't even try to find out Alicent's deal with the attitude and green dress. Rhynaera just doesn't seem interested in her at all which seems like a big mistake.

In retrospect,  Dany had to go through a whole marriage and maneuver around her brother and that weird city in the 2nd season before she was ready to handle a lover. And ultimately he didn't play a big role in the plot. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by jeansheridan

[Roseanna]

12 hours ago, Josh371982 said:

Well Alicent went behind her back and seduced her father, lying to her until the truth was revealed so she can take a seat. 

Rhaenyra is no modern teen but a princess who should understand two things:  Alicent had to obey her father's command (and only thing she actually did was to be nice) and Viserys would have married somebody anyway as he had only one heir and it was better he married her best friend.  

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, LanceM said:

Did you not see the 4th episode? She is no longer a cup bearer but has seat at the table, meaning she is now part of the small council and is now able to voice her opinions like any other member of the small council. When she was a cup bearer she was just that a cup bearer (not a member of the council)

The council isn't the only place to influence on matters. She could have talked tete-a-tete with powerful men in order to find out if they supported her and if not, how to get it. And of course her main way would have been to marry the best ally she could find. 

Now when there are three contenders to the throne, the natural way to somebody who wants to win would have been to ally with either of them, or at least make sure that other two doesn't ally against you. 

Whatever Rhaenyra felt towards Alicent for marrying her father, she should have kept her own council and pretend to be friendly with her step-mother in order to lull her in peace.  

[LanceM]

7 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

A measured response! I do think ep showed she had matured. She managed her betrothal fairly well. She was doing the marriage celebration properly. She was rightfully annoyed with Daemon. She apparently understood the need to marry quickly. But, and a big but, she utterly misread her lover. And she didn't even try to find out Alicent's deal with the attitude and green dress. Rhynaera just doesn't seem interested in her at all which seems like a big mistake.

In retrospect,  Dany had to go through a whole marriage and maneuver around her brother and that weird city in the 2nd season before she was ready to handle a lover. And ultimately he didn't play a big role in the plot. 

It was the middle of her wedding, what was she supposed to tell Laenor she couldn’t get up to the dragon dance because she had to talk to the Queen? Was she supposed to stop all festivities until she finds out why Alicent is pissed? Not to mention the fact that a guy was just murdered in the middle of the feast. I don’t think it is unreasonable to think that she could Try enjoy her own wedding feast and then find out why the Queen is pissed another day. I mean there is lot to criticize Rhaenyra for because she is such a flawed individual (which makes her such a great character) but I don’t think not talking to Alicent when she is trying to enjoy her wedding feast is one of them.

Edited September 23, 2022 by LanceM

[jeansheridan]

2 hours ago, LanceM said:

Try enjoy her own wedding feast and then find out why the Queen is pissed another day

I guess but so far what we have seen in all the eps is a total lack of interest in Alicent. Alicent has done most of the work. She approaches Rhyanera, reaches out, tries to smooth things. Alicent is a pleaser. Rhyanera seemingly has zero respect for her. 

And it could be crap writing. But a scene showing Rhynaera checking on her before the ceremony would have been interesting. Rhynaera got her father fired. Maybe it was justified but it was still Alicient's father. It would be smart to check in. But Rhy doesn't really care about her even though Alicent just proved to be a great source of info in the previous ep. Also does Rhynaera even really know how ill her father is? Nothing in her performance indicates an awareness.

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, LanceM said:

I mean there is lot to criticize Rhaenyra for because she is such a flawed individual (which makes her such a great character) 

A good character IMO must have a goal and try to reach it as well as inner and outer hindrances, but so far Rhaenyra has just moped and let the others act. This episode was the first when she showed that she can become interesting - maybe.   

[Lady S.]

12 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Rhaenyra is no modern teen but a princess who should understand two things:  Alicent had to obey her father's command (and only thing she actually did was to be nice) and Viserys would have married somebody anyway as he had only one heir and it was better he married her best friend.  

I'm with you on the first but how in the world was it better for him to marry her friend? Laena was too young to have kids yet but surely those two were not the only eligible maidens in all the realm. There had to be someone else who could be a good political match and a good stepmother without that emotional baggage. Rhaenyra did try to make up with Alicent last ep after watching Viserys disrespect her, apologizing for her insensitive remark and taking her hand while saying she missed her too. But Alicent can't have it both ways to be the judgmental and concerned stepmother and the peer to confide any secret in. She started off accusing Rhaenyra, who then had every reason to think whatever she said would get back to Otto. Swearing by her mother's memory that Daemon never touched her was pretty low, but telling the truth would have been even more careless and stupid than everything she did the night before. Alicent can think that her secrets were justified by Otto and the king's wishes, but that doesn't mean the damage wasn't done and that their trust and intimacy could ever be the same again. 

Quote

All I am saying is that if Aegon were to reach the throne, he would not have the same  necessity to kill Rhae that she does to kill him and any male siblings. IMO her having been designated heir by Viserys does not represent the same ongoing threat to his legitimacy that Rhae's being female and Aegon being male represents to Rhae. I can envision a world where a defeated Rhae could continue to exist and no one would seek to restore her to the throne, and therefore, Aegon would not feel a need to kill Rhae. Based on what we've seen so far of the world of HOD and GOT, there seems to be little room for a queen, and her head would always have to be uneasy when wearing a crown that much of the kingdom thinks belongs exclusively to a male

Taking the throne and securing the throne are two very different things or else Cersei/Joffrey would have won the game of thrones in 1.07 and there would be no War of Five Kings. The question is not whether Rhaenyra could win the war (though if Aegon were killed in battle and she had sons of her own...) but whether she could be quietly ignored as a threat so long as she and her dragon and the Targ-Velaryon dragons survived. By the laws and traditions of patriarchy a legitimate brother comes before any sister but Viserys's will has given her legitimancy and no king would want a rival with any legitimancy. Stannis Baratheon had no dragons and few supporters after the Blackwater (and no solid proof of Cersei's sons not being Baratheons) but Tywin would've still seen him as a threat and that wasn't just his vicious Lannister ruthlessness. Y'all are assuming not only that Aegon will prove a more benevelent sibling than Rhaenyra but also a perfect prince who would give his subjects no cause to become discontented and seek any rival to support instead. Remember, the council debate after Aemma's death was basically we've never had a female heir before, tradition! vs. Otto/the Grandmaester/that other old guy saying yeah, but maybe a bad enough king is even worse than a girl?

Rhaenys was the one who said that men would not accept Rhaenyra's status and that she, Laenor, and all their kids would be in danger. It's weird to me to think she was right about one thing but not the other or that she meant they were only in danger if Aegon couldn't get to the throne first.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Lady S.

[Affogato]

5 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I guess but so far what we have seen in all the eps is a total lack of interest in Alicent. Alicent has done most of the work. She approaches Rhyanera, reaches out, tries to smooth things. Alicent is a pleaser. Rhyanera seemingly has zero respect for her. 

And it could be crap writing. But a scene showing Rhynaera checking on her before the ceremony would have been interesting. Rhynaera got her father fired. Maybe it was justified but it was still Alicient's father. It would be smart to check in. But Rhy doesn't really care about her even though Alicent just proved to be a great source of info in the previous ep. Also does Rhynaera even really know how ill her father is? Nothing in her performance indicates an awareness.

Alicent's courting of the king was orchestrated by Otto, over time, so that when he was presented with children and strangers, she was at least an amiable person of a passably suitable age (for the time and place). It is reasonable to assume that Alicent's friendship with Rhaenerya was equally orchestrated. Unlike Rae's easy openess with the other dragonriders (including Daemon and her husband to be) and Criston, we see a lot of scenes when she is acting as if Alicent is not so much a close friend, but a paid and somewhat unwanted companion.  Rhaenerya seems to have many friends, but Alicent mostly has Rhaenerya, and now that she has married the king, that relationship is strained.

They don't seem to have a lot in common.

Yah, also, I think to be a dragonrider is to be a bit of a sociopath, likely because the dragons aren't human and don't play by human rules.

[Raachel2008]

6 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I guess but so far what we have seen in all the eps is a total lack of interest in Alicent. Alicent has done most of the work. She approaches Rhyanera, reaches out, tries to smooth things. Alicent is a pleaser. Rhyanera seemingly has zero respect for her. 

And it could be crap writing. But a scene showing Rhynaera checking on her before the ceremony would have been interesting. Rhynaera got her father fired. Maybe it was justified but it was still Alicient's father. It would be smart to check in. But Rhy doesn't really care about her even though Alicent just proved to be a great source of info in the previous ep. Also does Rhynaera even really know how ill her father is? Nothing in her performance indicates an awareness.

Rhaenyra is allowed to not be interested in Alicent. She is allowed to not give a fuck about her. She is allowed to be as callous as she wants. She just have to own it, but that would imply she has some sort of strategy in her mind, or understand the game she has to play to sit on that throne, which she clearly does not, really.  For me she always saw Alicent in the show as something  between a friend and a lady in waiting. And she didn't understood, just Alicent herself didn't, that Alicent is not Switzerland in all this, she is the mother of Aegon. She is 'the other side', while Alicent probably saw their friendship as something that would last forever.

Otto is Alicent's father, but he is also an employer, if you want. Rhaenyra wasn't going to comfort Alicent for making her father being fired because she is a princess, born and raised and it is her right, never mind that she would never tell Alicent that she had slept with Criston Cole. Also Otto overplayed his hand and he knew it. He absoutely knew it, which was obvious in the talk with Alicent at the gate.

When Alicent doesn't show up at the wedding at the rights time and interrupts Viserys speech she is showing two things: first, that she finally understood that she is the queen, and she is entittled to things, second that Viserys is a weak king. No other king would have allowed that.

Alicent was naive and Rhaenyra wasted precious time - years - that she could have worked towards that crown. Otto, who is way older and a political animal, know that down the road it is either Rhaenyra (and her future children) or Alicent's children, and a lot of blood before someone finally reigns for good. Both Alicent and Rhaenyra never really understood it. Otto knows. Daemon knows. Rhaenys knows. Everybody knows. Viserys thinks he doesn't know.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Raachel2008

[MBayGal]

On 9/20/2022 at 8:04 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

Still. Rhaenyra technically (mostly) didn't lie. Alicent just asked the wrong questions. She asked "did you fuck Daemon?" and Rhaenyra truthfully answered "Nope!"

R. did lie.  She specifically swore to Alicent that "Daemon never touched me."

[LanceM]

39 minutes ago, MBayGal said:

R. did lie.  She specifically swore to Alicent that "Daemon never touched me."

People are taking that quote too literally when it was clearly a euphemism and a polite way to tell Alicent that Daemon didn’t fuck her (not for a lack of trying). And we know this how Alicent took it too because when she talks to Viserys that night she tells him that Rhaenyra swears “she is still a maiden”.  Well what did we actually see Rhaenyra swear too? It wasn’t that she was still a maiden it was that “Daemon never touched me”.

(of course she fails to lost get maidenhood later that night to Christen Cole. lol, but she was never asked about losing plot to anyone else)

Edited September 23, 2022 by LanceM

[LanceM]

8 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I guess but so far what we have seen in all the eps is a total lack of interest in Alicent. Alicent has done most of the work. She approaches Rhyanera, reaches out, tries to smooth things. Alicent is a pleaser. Rhyanera seemingly has zero respect for her. 

And it could be crap writing. But a scene showing Rhynaera checking on her before the ceremony would have been interesting. Rhynaera got her father fired. Maybe it was justified but it was still Alicient's father. It would be smart to check in. But Rhy doesn't really care about her even though Alicent just proved to be a great source of info in the previous ep. Also does Rhynaera even really know how ill her father is? Nothing in her performance indicates an awareness.

Lack of interest in Alicent? She was her best friend. The one she wanted to take with her on dragon back all over Westeros. The one who prays with her at the sept and thanks her for bring her friend. of course she cares about Alicent. If she didn’t she would not have felt so betrayed and hurt when she found out that she was marrying her father and that they have been sneaking around together behind here back. Would it have been nice if she saw Alicent after she got her father sacked. I guess. You know what would have been nice if maybe Alicent told her “hey you know how we hang a lot well when I am not hanging out with you you can usually find me day or night hanging out with your father in his chambers, oh and we have been doing this for the last 6 months”. And if Alicent felt she couldn’t do that could she have at least told Viseys once in those 6 months “hey I know you say I shouldn’t tell Rhaenyra about her talks but she is my best friend and you daughter snd she is going to be really hurt if she finds out we have been seeing each other behind her back”. Alicent didn’t do that either. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by LanceM

[Raachel2008]

28 minutes ago, LanceM said:

I guess. You know what would have been nice if maybe Alicent told her “hey you know how we hang a lot well when I am not hanging out with you you can usually find me day or night hanging out with your father in his chambers, oh and we have been doing this for the last 6 months”. And if Alicent felt she couldn’t do that could she have at least told Viseys once in those 6 months “hey I know you say I shouldn’t tell Rhaenyra about her talks but she is my best friend and you daughter snd she is going to be really hurt if she finds out we have been seeing each other behind her back”. Alicent didn’t do that either. 

No way. Otto would have never allowed Alicent to do that. Rhaenyra was in no way ready to see someone in her mother's place, but while she couldn't do anything if Viserys decided to marry Laeana, the daughter of one of the most powweful men in Westeros or some other lady from a strong house, she could and we know she would convince her father to not betray her mother's memory and herself by marrying her friend who was like a daughter or whatever to Aemna. Viserys knew that, I'm sure. 

I don't think it is a matter or who is right or wrong there. Both Rhaenyra and Alicent are young women in a world where they aren't valued as much as men and where their main role is to bear chidren - boys, if possible. Rhaenyra has way more leeway because of her position and having a father who ends, most of the time, bending for her. Alicent doesn't have that and in last episode we could see how she resented that even if she didn't realize that herself. 

They both have flaws and made honest and not so honest mistakes there. Rhaenyra, IMO, overestimates her 'right' to the throne, and was very lazy and complacente all those years, while Alicent understimated how much social climbing she did and how much she could achieve.

Bottom line, whatever friendship they had would turn sour, one way or another, once Aegon was born. Aegon and Rhaenyra's as heir cannot coexist. Rhaenyra would have seen that ages ago if she had made the effort - again, she did not. Alicent also did not, but she probably never expected to see herself in that position - queen, with a relatively nice marriage.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Raachel2008

[gingerella]

On 9/22/2022 at 12:11 PM, Dac22 said:

There is absolutely no need for him to do what he did if he had completely noble attentions because it would already work out like he wanted. The best outcome for Joffrey approaching Criston is he screws everything up for himself, Laenor, and Rhaenyra.

So, again, I just find it hard to understand why Joffrey would do it if his intentions were completely noble. What he cares about is Laenor's safety, not Criston's feelings. So I don't think he went over there to do it for the good of Criston.

It came across as very snarky and smarmy to me, like 'I know you're schtupping the princess...' Then again, I never met a Joffrey I liked so there's that...

I think Rhaenyra comes off as very haughty and above it all, and as others have mentioned,  she is clueless about the level of support she will need to successfully succeed her father. She's burning bridges without even knowing it. Meanwhile, methinks Alicent just threw her dick on the table and is ready to rumble, and Rhaenyra is clueless about any of this.

I don't see how Cristin survives the aftermath of his brutality, unless Alicent makes up a story about it and puts him in the role of someone defending the realm from some insult or threat he will say Joff threw out there so, yanno, he was just protecting the princess...

Edited September 24, 2022 by gingerella

[Roseanna]

11 hours ago, Lady S. said:

I'm with you on the first but how in the world was it better for him to marry her friend? Laena was too young to have kids yet but surely those two were not the only eligible maidens in all the realm. There had to be someone else who could be a good political match and a good stepmother without that emotional baggage. 

It was not about choosing between "eligible maidens". The wisest, indeed the only, option for Viseys would have been to make the political match that could bring the strongest allies against his brother: Laena after a few years. But he, weak as he is, chose to marry Alicent who showed him kindness in his grief, instead of making her his mistress.

On the other hand, for Rhaenyra it would have been more dangerous if Viserys had married Laena - not the girl itself but because her parents' position her son would have had stronger backing. Alicent and Otto's party is much weaker, so Rhaenyra should have put her hurt feelings aside.

Now of course Rhaenyra has, though lately, got a husband and backing. But she would still have been wiser to pretend to be friends with Alicent in order to make her believe that all is OK.   

[cambridgeguy]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

On the other hand, for Rhaenyra it would have been more dangerous if Viserys had married Laena - not the girl itself but because her parents' position her son would have had stronger backing. Alicent and Otto's party is much weaker, so Rhaenyra should have put her hurt feelings aside.

That's true, once Viserys and his new wife had a son the bride's house would have immediately pushed for him to be the new heir.   Which is why Viserys dying between episodes 1 and 2 would have been the best thing for Rhaenyra's claim.  She would have had the support of the anyone but Daemon camp (especially Otto), the oaths were fresh, and there's no indication that Daemon is particularly popular with the elites of Westeros.

Now, I'm sure everyone would have immediately tried to manipulate her, but that would happen with any sovereign. 

[LanceM]

8 hours ago, gingerella said:

I think Rhaenyra comes off as very haughty and above it all, and as others have mentioned,  she is clueless about the level of support she will need to successfully succeed her father. She's burning bridges without even knowing it. Meanwhile, methinks Alicent just threw her dick on the table and is ready to rumble, and Rhaenyra is clueless about any of this.

Rhaenyra most certainly is a firm believer in Targaryen exceptionalism no doubt about that and would certainly agree with Daemon’s sentiment that “you are the dragon who cares what the lord say”. And I will agree that she has burned some bridges by being insulting and condescending at times to certain lords. I also think people overrate the impact of this. The number one motivating factor for who a lord will support in the coming conflict is self interest. Those that won’t support her solely because of perceived insult years ago are a small minority.
 

What I completely disagree with is your statement that Ryaenerya is clueless that Alicent “threw her dick on the table and is ready to rumble”. Not a chance. She and everyone in that hall knew exactly the point Alicent was making when she wore that dress and that was where Alicent’s true allegience lies and is not with Rhaenyra Targaryen or Viserys Targaryen for that matter. Alicent tipped her hand big time here. 

Edited September 24, 2022 by LanceM

[LadyChaos]

5 hours ago, LanceM said:

Rhaenyra most certainly is a firm believer in Targaryen exceptionalism no doubt about that and would certainly agree with Daemon’s sentiment that “you are the dragon who cares what the lord say”. And I will agree that she has burned some bridges by being insulting and condescending at times to certain lords. I also think people overrate the impact of this. The number one motivating factor for who a lord will support in the coming conflict is self interest. Those that won’t support her solely because of perceived insult years ago are a small minority.
 

What I completely disagree with is your statement that Ryaenerya is clueless that Alicent “threw her dick on the table and is ready to rumble”. Not a chance. She and everyone in that hall knew exactly the point Alicent was making when she wore that dress and that was where Alicent’s true allegience lies and is not with Rhaenyra Targaryen or Viserys Targaryen for that matter. Alicent tipped her hand big time here. 

Being a firm believer in Targ exceptionalism is kind of a Targ trait at this point. We've seen it in every Targaryen we've met so far.

I think that Rhaenyra is no fool, she has voiced concerns that she doesn't think Westeros will accept her when she felt like she was safe to do...like in 103 with Crispen......but I think a lot of these perceived slights she is giving people that may or may not be burning bridges, is her being a teenager and knowing she already cannot afford to appear weak, emotional, or like she lacks confidence. 

Edited September 24, 2022 by LadyChaos

[The Kings Foot]

20 hours ago, LanceM said:

People are taking that quote too literally when it was clearly a euphemism and a polite way to tell Alicent that Daemon didn’t fuck her (not for a lack of trying). And we know this how Alicent took it too because when she talks to Viserys that night she tells him that Rhaenyra swears “she is still a maiden”.  Well what did we actually see Rhaenyra swear too? It wasn’t that she was still a maiden it was that “Daemon never touched me”.

(of course she fails to lost get maidenhood later that night to Christen Cole. lol, but she was never asked about losing plot to anyone else)

Do you think issue was who she lost her virginity too and the simple fact she lost her virginity ?  In the middle of her courtship no less ?

If Rhaenyra had said.  "No I didnt sleep with Daemon, I slept with Cristen"   everyone would've been fine ? 

 Rhaenyra  knew very well that the main  issue was her virginity not whether Daemon had taken it. 

Edited September 24, 2022 by The Kings Foot

[LanceM]

3 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

Do you think issue was who she lost her virginity too and the simple fact she lost her virginity ?  In the middle of her courtship no less ?

If Rhaenyra had said.  "No I didnt sleep with Daemon, I slept with Cristen"   everyone would've been fine ? 

 Rhaenyra  knew very well that the main  issue was her virginity not whether Daemon had taken it. 

I am only commenting on what she was actually asked by Alicent which was if she had sex with Daemon. She didn’t (not for a lack of trying). So therefore she didn’t lie when she swore on the life of her mother.

Now the fact that she lost her virginity at all is of course a big deal which is why Rhaenyra smartly didn’t divulge that information. And for the record I believe if she was asked directly if she was still a maiden she would have undoubtedly lied her Valyrian ass off. But again she was never asked that.

Edited September 24, 2022 by LanceM

[Affogato]

On 9/20/2022 at 12:15 PM, Uncle JUICE said:

OOoof, what a great point. I would have to check into the book to see what sort of marriages pre-dated Viserys, but I definitely know Aegon I was not married to any Westerosi...so what is the godswood doing behind the castle walls in the first place? Aegon and Maegor built the entirety of the Red Keep, why would they put a heartwood tree in there if neither of them believed in the old gods at all? I know there are Targaryens who were indeed people of faith, but it was always to the Seven, not the old gods. DAMN IT!!! This is worse than the crabfeeder's sons of the harpy anachronistic mask! 

I’ve windered if it will turn out A three eyed raven is telling the story. 
which is why they would need a tree there. However there were kings before the targs and allies from other houses. 

[kassandra8286]

All the great houses had a godswood. It didn't mean they worshipped the old gods, they were kept for tradition's sake and as a place of reflection and solitude. The Red Keep godswood is where Sansa had her secret meetings with Ser Dontos when he was helping plan her escape from Kings Landing.

Edited September 25, 2022 by kassandra8286

[Uncle JUICE]

8 hours ago, Affogato said:

I’ve windered if it will turn out A three eyed raven is telling the story. 
which is why they would need a tree there. However there were kings before the targs and allies from other houses. 

I would agree if one of thise great houses gad built kings landing or the red keep. Both were built by conquerors, the targaryens. 

[LadyChaos]

15 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

Do you think issue was who she lost her virginity too and the simple fact she lost her virginity ?  In the middle of her courtship no less ?

If Rhaenyra had said.  "No I didnt sleep with Daemon, I slept with Cristen"   everyone would've been fine ? 

 Rhaenyra  knew very well that the main  issue was her virginity not whether Daemon had taken it. 

Who she lost her virginity to does matter....When Alicent was bringing it up to Rhaenyra, Alicent said something like 'You Targaryens have your own revolting custums', don't remember the exact words but the implication was that, at least for Alicent, there was heavy disgust over the idea of incest. So, IMO, the who was important to her....and I think the who, was important to Viserys, but for different reasons....I honestly think Viserys doesn't care that she might be having sex. He sees the hypocrisy, and thinks its wrong....but he is worried about her safety and fears that Daemon is using her to get to the throne. So, he wants to protect her and keep her safe.

To the other great houses though, they would only care as so much as it might further or not further their interests....For those that don't want her on the throne, its a reason to use against her....for those that value their alliances and the safety and advancement it allows them, they'll turn their head and pretend they don't know.....

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I would agree if one of thise great houses gad built kings landing or the red keep. Both were built by conquerors, the targaryens. 

And they might have had associatez who kept to the old ways. And the trees are neat in a creepy sort of way. Decorative. Maybe a gift from the starks. Respect. 

[king of bullshit]

On 9/22/2022 at 3:11 PM, Dac22 said:

There is absolutely no need for him to do what he did if he had completely noble intentions because it would already work out like he wanted.

Why do his intentions have to be noble? They can be neutral at worst and merit no hostility. 

On 9/22/2022 at 3:11 PM, Dac22 said:

The best outcome for Joffrey approaching Criston is he screws everything up for himself, Laenor, and Rhaenyra.

How? Which potential negative reactions, within the realm of reason, tantamount to screwing everything up for them, ought to have inhibited Joffrey's actions? That Criston would blab is pretty well covered by the reasonable expectation of mortal fear. You don't generally expect people to be suicidal otherwise you'd never drive, or cross the street. 

That he'd end things with Rhaenyra? 

If learning that the king consort had a secret lover and was therefore cool with Rhaenyra fucking around as she pleased was a deal-breaker, it would have been pointless for Rhaenyra to make her proposal in the first place. So she effectively laid the bedrock of that (non)assumption on Joffrey's part.

On 9/22/2022 at 3:11 PM, Dac22 said:

What he cares about is Laenor's safety, not Criston's feelings.

Why can't he care about both? Criston is someone he's able to uniquely empathize with.

[paigow]

4 hours ago, king of bullshit said:

Which potential negative reactions, within the realm of reason, tantamount to screwing everything up for them, ought to have inhibited Joffrey's actions?

Common sense... his actions were totally unnecessary and driven by a need to gloat and assert his own power over Criston.

He already knew Criston would remain silent, but Joffrey decided to flex and be all This is how the real world works, you simpleton.... They were both knights and royal boyfriends, but Criston would always be more vulnerable / replaceable - i.e. he would ALSO be controlled by Joffrey.

Joffrey assumed that:  C*** Struck + Guilt + Intimidation = Compliance > 0

He never imagined that 0 was possible...but should have. 

[The Kings Foot]

On 9/24/2022 at 6:27 PM, LanceM said:

I am only commenting on what she was actually asked by Alicent which was if she had sex with Daemon. She didn’t (not for a lack of trying). So therefore she didn’t lie when she swore on the life of her mother.

Now the fact that she lost her virginity at all is of course a big deal which is why Rhaenyra smartly didn’t divulge that information. And for the record I believe if she was asked directly if she was still a maiden she would have undoubtedly lied her Valyrian ass off. But again she was never asked that.

This is doubletalk that omissions are not lies. 

On 9/25/2022 at 7:06 AM, LadyChaos said:

Who she lost her virginity to does matter....When Alicent was bringing it up to Rhaenyra, Alicent said something like 'You Targaryens have your own revolting custums', don't remember the exact words but the implication was that, at least for Alicent, there was heavy disgust over the idea of incest. So, IMO, the who was important to her....and I think the who, was important to Viserys, but for different reasons....I honestly think Viserys doesn't care that she might be having sex. He sees the hypocrisy, and thinks its wrong....but he is worried about her safety and fears that Daemon is using her to get to the throne. So, he wants to protect her and keep her safe.

To the other great houses though, they would only care as so much as it might further or not further their interests....For those that don't want her on the throne, its a reason to use against her....for those that value their alliances and the safety and advancement it allows them, they'll turn their head and pretend they don't know.....

The revolting customs may have been an edge to Alicent but in general  sleeping with someone while in the middle of a public courtship would be a slap in the face to ALL who were courting her. 

[Ottis]

On 9/18/2022 at 8:17 PM, WaltersHair said:

I'm enjoying the series, but nothing is wowing me. Even the unpredictable moments are transient.

If there is a big war coming, I hope they at least try and surprise me with the outcome.

I would like a reason for a big war beyond kingly succession. What the hell is the matter with this show? I don’t care who is king or queen. I want some sort of meaningful threat and conflict that isn’t the result of political maneuvering and social mores. I don’t need to watch a fantasy show with dragons to study mock British history. Or a Hallmark movie. EDIT: GoT was about much more than kingdoms competing for the throne. Dany’s journey alone blows HoD out of the water.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Ottis

[Meredith Quill]

11 hours ago, Ottis said:

I would like a reason for a big war beyond kingly succession. What the hell is the matter with this show? I don’t care who is king or queen. I want some sort of meaningful threat and conflict that isn’t the result of political maneuvering and social mores. I don’t need to watch a fantasy show with dragons to study mock British history. Or a Hallmark movie. EDIT: GoT was about much more than kingdoms competing for the throne. Dany’s journey alone blows HoD out of the water.

Considering this story is based on The Anarchy, it sounds like it isn't going to be your cup of tea bc this was never intended as GoT 2.0. This show is based on a story about Targ civil war.

[kassandra8286]

3 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

Considering this story is based on The Anarchy, it sounds like it isn't going to be your cup of tea bc this was never intended as GoT 2.0. This show is based on a story about Targ civil war.

Exactly. Sounds like the other proposed spinoffs will incorporate one specific piece of the original GOT:  House of the Dragons to cover political intrigue with dragons, The Long Night was going to be the White Walkers origin story, the Jon Snow sequel will presumably be about beyond the Wall adventures; 10,000 ships will be about Nymeria's conquest of Dorne. It is very unlikely there will be another GOT that includes all the different elements that made the original a worldwide blockbuster hit. If the Dunk and Egg spinoff ever gets off the ground, that will likely have a broader appeal since it will have two likeable protagonists on a road trip having adventures along the way. 

I knew HOTD wouldn't be for everyone and I expect viewership to drop off (I'm surprised the numbers have remained so high) as the focus of the show becomes more clear and no true heroes emerge. That's fine, I'm here for the duration.

[Affogato]

15 hours ago, Ottis said:

I would like a reason for a big war beyond kingly succession. What the hell is the matter with this show? I don’t care who is king or queen. I want some sort of meaningful threat and conflict that isn’t the result of political maneuvering and social mores. I don’t need to watch a fantasy show with dragons to study mock British history. Or a Hallmark movie. EDIT: GoT was about much more than kingdoms competing for the throne. Dany’s journey alone blows HoD out of the water.

Dany's story is about her taking a place at the table playing 'game of thrones', and her initial stake is her family history. It is about her wanting to become Queen. Although she does have dragons, she also gathers armies, like any potential player would before attacking. You would not want to pull the dragon out from under her when they were flying, but if you wait until they have landed and then remove the outrageous fantasy elements from the story, it becomes pretty much what it is--a made up history story, in big part mock British History. the Iron Islands go Viking. The Plantagenets in the North. And so on.

Honestly, if they were going to start as they did I think they should have spent time this season developing the characters and then made the time jump.In my opinion. I want to care more about these people than I do care at this point. I think that is the difference though, they gave Dany and others the luxury of time to grow on us.

[king of bullshit]

On 9/25/2022 at 5:53 PM, paigow said:

Common sense... his actions were totally unnecessary and driven by a need to gloat and assert his own power over Criston.

He already knew Criston would remain silent, but Joffrey decided to flex and be all This is how the real world works, you simpleton.... They were both knights and royal boyfriends, but Criston would always be more vulnerable / replaceable - i.e. he would ALSO be controlled by Joffrey.

Joffrey assumed that:  C*** Struck + Guilt + Intimidation = Compliance > 0

He never imagined that 0 was possible...but should have. 

Not sure I fully understand you so I'll ask for clarification first. Are you saying that the answer to my question is: 'exactly what ended up happening'? I.E., his face being turned into mashed potatoes? That's a reasonable negative reaction he ought to have foreseen as a result of his actions? And it should have been "common sense"?

[paigow]

46 minutes ago, king of bullshit said:

Not sure I fully understand you so I'll ask for clarification first. Are you saying that the answer to my question is: 'exactly what ended up happening'? I.E., his face being turned into mashed potatoes? That's a reasonable negative reaction he ought to have foreseen as a result of his actions? And it should have been "common sense"?

In a broad sense, Joffrey already knew that Criston was a wounded animal... Common sense dictates avoiding such animals. However, if you decide to torment / provoke /  antagonize said animal, expecting it to attack would be reasonable.  Yes, I am blaming the victim for knowingly pursuing a reckless course of action that defied common sense. Dying would not be a reasonable expectation, but getting slapped around would be. 

[Ottis]

32 minutes ago, paigow said:

In a broad sense, Joffrey already knew that Criston was a wounded animal... Common sense dictates avoiding such animals. However, if you decide to torment / provoke /  antagonize said animal, expecting it to attack would be reasonable.  Yes, I am blaming the victim for knowingly pursuing a reckless course of action that defied common sense. Dying would not be a reasonable expectation, but getting slapped around would be. 

Good description. I actually thought Joffrey had a good *idea,* he executed it poorly. On its face, it actually is a sweet arrangement. Joffrey gets to keep his relationship with his boyfriend who becomes king (or queen consort, not sure the rules there), and the queen gets to have her secret affairs with Criston - AND all four parties are perfectly fine with that, and I assume, with also each carrying out their publicly expected duties. However, for reasons I don't understand, Joffrey presented that arrangement as a threat to Criston instead of as an equal party to a wanted arrangement. Criston was already dealing with his personal demons around honor, and so his response to a threat was to attack. Or maybe I missed the whole point of it all. As I have noted, I don't care much about any of this. Given helpful responses in this thread that this is apparently all HoD is about, this may be my last episode.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Ottis