S01.E02: Adrift

[JTMacc99]

Episode Synopsis:

Galadriel finds a new ally; Elrond faces a cold recognition from an old friend; Nori endeavors to help a Stranger ; Arondir searches for answers while Bronwyn warns her people of a threat.

Reminder: 

This is for discussion of the TV show only, no book talk allowed - including saying "but it's different in the books". Any spoiler from outside the books and stories (including previews or the movies) should be in spoiler tags.

[peridot]

I was wondering how Galadriel would get out of being lost at sea.  She was swimming like she knew where to go.  The sea worm was pretty terrifying, I couldn't tell if there was more than one that were hunting the humans.

There were some good horror moments in this episode, I was tense a few times.

That was a big ass mouse that the kid uncovered!  I was surprised that he was still alive after that happened.  The reconstituted sword isn't good.  I'm afraid he's just going to get his people slaughtered, since it's probably a beacon.

I'm looking forward to the rest of the season.

[Raachel2008]

24 minutes ago, peridot said:

That was a big ass mouse that the kid uncovered! 

I can't see rats, I'm 110% phobic and I was hyperventilating watching Arondir in the tunnel. That was my nightmare.

I loved the episode.  Khazad-Dum whoaaaaa. Durin and Disa are my faves, power couple for the win. 

I was never a fan of the hobbits - sorry -, though I enjoyed Frodo and all just fine. I'm also not keen on the Harfoot, but Nori and Poppy are fucking amazing. The scene with the fireflies and the Stranger was just magic and this is coming from someone who doesn't care about these 'magic' moments. LOVED it.

The constellation the Stranger was making with the fireflies, was it the same Galadriel was seeing at the sea?

[thuganomics85]

Definitely ramped up the horror elements for this episode.  The sea worm was effective enough in a "creature feature" kind of way and the cat and mouse game with the Orc was suspenseful as well.  Arondir's little chase in the tunnels (complete with rats!) was also harrowing.  I'm assuming he'll be okay though.

Bronwyn and Theo made for an effective duo taking out that Orc.  Enjoyed her bring its severed head to the town-folks so that they would finally take her seriously.  But I'm guessing whatever is going on with Theo and that sword will end up being very bad news.

Enjoyed Elrond's scenes with Durin.  I like how the different lifespans of the species was highlighted and how time is perceived differently for elves and dwarves.  For Elrond, a twenty year gap was normal for him, but for Durin, he lived an entire life without his supposed friend and understandably felt like he was taken for granted (then again, did he even let Elrond know about his wedding.  Do RSVPs not exist in Middle Earth?!)  Glad they had a reconciliation of some kind, and I'm looking forward to seeing more of this relationship going forward.

Not sure what is going on with the Hartfoots and the Stranger, but I'm sure it will pay off in the future.

Galadriel makes a new friend (kind of?) and it looks like they've been saved by some mysterious figure.  Should be fun!

[paulvdb]

15 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

(then again, did he even let Elrond know about his wedding.  Do RSVPs not exist in Middle Earth?!)

Nice to see that I wasn't the only one who wondered about that.

[Constantinople]

Watching an elf and a dwarf smash stones was about as interesting...watching two guys smash stones.

I don't see why the guy on what was left of the boat was being so hesitant to tell Galadriel where he's from. He has something better to do in the middle of the ocean with nothing to pass the time?

Much of the dialogue was stilted, the dwarves were more boring than the hobbits and the attempts at humor fell flat.

I fell asleep watching this episode. Special effects, sets, costumes, etc. aren't a substitute for good writing.

Starting next week, new episodes drop at Midnight US Eastern time. I guess I'll be watching on Friday night or the weekend. So far, there's nothing worth staying up late for.

[mac123x]

5 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Starting next week, new episodes drop at Midnight US Eastern time. I guess I'll be watching on Friday night or the weekend. So far, there's nothing worth staying up late for.

Yeah, I was having a hard enough time paying attention at a reasonable hour.  That late and I'll wind up snoozing through it.

[Camera One]

This episode was more engaging than the first one, though that could be because there was just more action and life-and-death type situations.  The characters weren't really developed much further in this one.

Nori is growing on me, though.  Hopefully, the man from the sky figures out how to communicate soon, since interpreting what he meant was getting old by the end of the hour.

The rest of the show (stuff with Galadriel and the darkness in the farming villages) takes itself a bit too seriously, so at least the Harfoot portions provide a bit of levity.  More balance would be nice.  

I get what they were trying to do with Durin being angry at Elrond for not visiting in 20 years, but the rock breaking competition dragged.  I did like the later interactions between Elrond and Durin and his wife, though, so maybe this will lead to some good scenes.

I guess everyone hates elves, to the point where that lady pushed Galadriel back into the ocean.  It seems like these people were from the area with the villages with the growing darkness, so it should be interesting to see Galadriel eventually going there and maybe interacting with the watcher elf, the healer, etc.  I am still finding it difficult to connect with Galadriel since she is so single-minded.

The other character I am growing to like more is the healer.  Does the son know what that sword is and represents?  His mother is very open-minded but he doesn't seem to be at all, so hopefully, his motivations will be revealed in time.  

There were fewer map transitions with this one.  The times they showed the map, it was again too zoomed in to figure out where everyone was. 

Can we assume all the subplots are happening simultaneously?  If not, it gets confusing.  The map seemed to indicate Celebrimbor's workshop was quite far from Khazad-dum, but Celebrimbor and Elrond seemed to walk there in a few hours.  Since very little time passed in the scenes in the other subplots.

Overall, I do want to see more but they need to work on pacing.  I can see some viewers losing their patience and it would be a shame if ratings dropped.  I feel like considering the number of places and people, it would take an entire season just to establish the premise.  I don't mind when a show slows down to do characterization but that isn't how the extra time is used thus far.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Camera One

[sharifa70]

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

The map seemed to indicate Celebrimbor's workshop was quite far from Khazad-dum, but Celebrimbor and Elrond seemed to walk there in a few hours.

That really bugged me. No packs, no gear, not even decent walking shoes or obvious weapons. It felt like they were just popping over to the neighbor’s for coffee. 

[RedElf]

Howard Shore doing the music.  They can't get better than that.

For somebody who had friends and kin in that burned down town, Bronwyn doesn't seem all that upset.

I guess when you're an elf and your body can regenerate itself, you can swim the width of the ocean.

Theo's fascination with that sword isn't going to end well.

Is that guy who fell from the sky a Maia?

[magdalene]

Well, I am just not really into this story. I was reading a book while watching and that's a bad sign.  I tend to be laser focused when I like something and that's not happening here. To me it can't hold  a candle to the movies and considering the cost of making this I expected much more. It reminds of  The Wheel of Time and I flaked out on that one within a few episodes and never finished the first season. Ouch.

[Zuleikha]

I expected to hate the Harfoots from the trailer, and instead they're the only part of the show that I feel are really working. The show is beautiful, but so very confusing. Too much plot and too little exposition! Some of us are just casual fans of LotR and the Hobbit and have never opened the Silmarillion. We can't fill in the blanks. We need the show to actually tell us what's going on.

Even with the Harfoots, while I mostly feel I know what's going on, I was still confused about the old dude with the book. Is he like a village wise man who uses the book to guide the migration? Where did the book come from? Is it magic?

The actress playing Galadriel is fine for what she's given, but Galadriel's motivation is too murky for me. I gather there is a bunch of First Age stuff that the show has no rights to use, but given that they can't establish her whole relationship with her brother and Sauron, I think they should have simplified her role in this. 

Soldier elf and healer woman are fine. They're pretty; they have believable chemistry. But their plot feels like a retread, and the interesting bit of tension with healer woman being from historically evil-to-elves village immediately ended. I completely did not follow why her son found the evil sword.
 

[TV Anonymous]

Is there any clause in the contract with Tokien's estate not to sexualize the characters? After she  just got pulled out of water, Galadriel was lying on the deck, wet, and wearing sheer white dress, and we did not even see the impression of her breast. Same thing when she stood up. 

Edited September 4, 2022 by TV Anonymous
Grammar

[cambridgeguy]

9 minutes ago, TV Anonymous said:

Is there any clause in the contract with Tokien's estate not to sexualize the character? After she  just got pulled out of water, Galadriel was lying on the deck, wet, and wearing sheer white dress, and we did not even see the impression of her breast. Same thing when she stood up. 

If they had then a bunch of people would complain about how they just couldn't resist keeping a major female character soaking wet for an entire episode just to show off her body.

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, TV Anonymous said:

Is there any clause in the contract with Tokien's estate not to sexualize the characters? After she  just got pulled out of water, Galadriel was lying on the deck, wet, and wearing sheer white dress, and we did not even see the impression of her breast. Same thing when she stood up. 

I'd go with a general "This ain't Game of Thrones.  No Elf-boobs here."

[mojoween]

The show comes to a dead stop to me whenever Galadriel shows up on screen.  She’s so dour and unpleasant.  I get why, and I think she’s supposed to be the main focus of the show? but I would rather be on any other plot line.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I expected to hate the Harfoots from the trailer, and instead they're the only part of the show that I feel are really working. The show is beautiful, but so very confusing. Too much plot and too little exposition! Some of us are just casual fans of LotR and the Hobbit and have never opened the Silmarillion. We can't fill in the blanks. We need the show to actually tell us what's going on.

This is where I am too. For one thing all the little easter eggs planted for the LotR fans go right over my head. For another thing every story seems to be a mystery. The dwarfs open a box - what's inside? Who's this guy on the raft? Who's the guy on the ship? What kind of monster was terrorizing the village? What is Gregson the elf trying to build? Who's the guy who fell out of the sky? They're not telling me anything, I have no idea what's going on here. This isn't Lost. 

Edited September 5, 2022 by iMonrey

[QuantumMechanic]

32 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

This is where I am too. For one thing all the little easter eggs planted for the LotR fans go right over my head. For another thing every story seems to be a mystery. The dwarfs open a box - what's inside? Who's this guy on the raft? Who's the guy on the ship? What kind of monster was terrorizing the village? What is Gregson the elf trying to build? Who's the guy who fell out of the sky? They're not telling me anything, I have no idea what's going on here. This isn't Lost. 

Don't feel too bad.  Most of this has no meaning for us LotR book fans, either.  Now, we do have an excellent idea of what's in that box

Spoiler

(almost certainly mithril)

and we know why Celebrimbor wants a forge (hint:

Spoiler

the title of the series

).  But all that other stuff?  We're just as in the dark as you are.

Edited September 5, 2022 by QuantumMechanic

[quarks]

30 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

This is where I am too. For one thing all the little easter eggs planted for the LotR fans go right over my head. For another thing every story seems to be a mystery. The dwarfs open a box - what's inside? Who's this guy on the raft? Who's the guy on the ship? What kind of monster was terrorizing the village? What is Gregson the elf trying to build? Who's the guy who fell out of the sky? They're not telling me anything, I have no idea what's going on here. This isn't Lost. 

Tangential to your main point here, but every time I see Gregson the Elf on screen I want to scream at him for that entire Lady Sybil saga, so I'm glad to know I'm not the only person watching the series and making that connection! Stop worrying about dwarves and instead THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU DID TO DOWNTON ABBEY.

He was also on The Crown but in a less irritating role there, so I don't feel the same need to scream at that character.

[TV Anonymous]

There is one thing I do not quite understand. Where is, or rather, what is Valinor, the home of the elves? Is it a real place, real location separated by the Sundering Seas from the Middle-Earth or is it a place on different plane of reality? Why does the ship have to go through a portal of light if Valinor is in the same dimension as Middle Earth?

Besides that, it is kind of badass, if not completely weird, that the elves sail through the entire voyage standing up at attention. I also agree with the poster above, what did Galadriel think? Did she plan to swim the whole ocean on her own with only one dagger? No floating platform or device, no food, no fresh water, no navigational aid. Yes, she is a fantasy being in a fantasy world, but it seems like the scene is not very well-thought.

[Haleth]

1 hour ago, TV Anonymous said:

Is it a real place, real location separated by the Sundering Seas from the Middle-Earth

Spoiler

Yes.

1 hour ago, TV Anonymous said:

or is it a place on different plane of reality?

Spoiler

Yes.

Hope that clears things up. 😊 (Maybe there should be a thread for questions that can't be answered in non-book talk threads?)

[QuantumMechanic]

1 hour ago, TV Anonymous said:

There is one thing I do not quite understand. Where is, or rather, what is Valinor, the home of the elves? Is it a real place, real location separated by the Sundering Seas from the Middle-Earth or is it a place on different plane of reality? Why does the ship have to go through a portal of light if Valinor is in the same dimension as Middle Earth?

Besides that, it is kind of badass, if not completely weird, that the elves sail through the entire voyage standing up at attention. I also agree with the poster above, what did Galadriel think? Did she plan to swim the whole ocean on her own with only one dagger? No floating platform or device, no food, no fresh water, no navigational aid. Yes, she is a fantasy being in a fantasy world, but it seems like the scene is not very well-thought.

Re: Valinor -- oh boy! :). I don't think these are really spoilers but since we're supposed to be very careful about book stuff in non-book forums...

Spoiler

Valinor is where the Valar (basically angels) lived after Creation (and now Elves live too).  At the time this episode is set it is physically-present on Earth and can be sailed to.  Way back before this show is set, the Elves were created/awoke in Middle-Earth (not Valinor).  They were "called" West and many (though not all) made the trek to the western shore of Middle-Earth and then sailed west to Valinor.  Then, because of a whole bunch of stuff this show can only glance on/allude to (because of rights issues) -- as we saw in the first episode -- many but by no means all the Elves sailed back to Middle-Earth to fight Melkor/Morgoth (the Lucifer figure of the Lord of the Rings and Sauron's boss/mentor/master). That's all before this show is set.

The "curtain/light" the Elven-ship encountered is the barrier around Valinor to keep out those not allowed to go there. In particular, for story-internal theological reasons Men, even good, honorable ones, are not allowed to go there at all.

Re: Galadriel -- especially since she was desperate for fresh water once hauled onto the raft.  That pretty handily belies the idea that even Elf super-endurance would have allowed her to swim all the way back to Middle-Earth.

Edited September 5, 2022 by QuantumMechanic

[quarks]

2 hours ago, TV Anonymous said:

There is one thing I do not quite understand. Where is, or rather, what is Valinor, the home of the elves? Is it a real place, real location separated by the Sundering Seas from the Middle-Earth or is it a place on different plane of reality? Why does the ship have to go through a portal of light if Valinor is in the same dimension as Middle Earth?

Responded to over on the book talk thread, since I don't think that's been clarified on the show, and may or may not be the same as what's said in the books.

[mac123x]

Did Celebrimbor ever explain why the forge needed to be built by spring?  Seemed arbitrary.

2 hours ago, quarks said:

Where is, or rather, what is Valinor, the home of the elves? Is it a real place, real location separated by the Sundering Seas from the Middle-Earth or is it a place on different plane of reality? Why does the ship have to go through a portal of light if Valinor is in the same dimension as Middle Earth?

I got a real "Logan's Run" vibe from that, like they were going to Carousel to be "reborn" (actually euthanized) , or The Island to have their organs harvested.

[johntfs]

34 minutes ago, mac123x said:

Did Celebrimbor ever explain why the forge needed to be built by spring?  Seemed arbitrary.

I got a real "Logan's Run" vibe from that, like they were going to Carousel to be "reborn" (actually euthanized) , or The Island to have their organs harvested.

It's not that.  Remember the elf kids and the boat?  That's where she was going back to.  She's wasn't going to die or get her organs harvested.  The big thing from the King's perspective is that she'd play no further part is stuff happening in Middle Earth.

This next part gets maybe a little into Book Talk so I'll spoiler it:

Spoiler

Figure most people are seeing Galadrial as the young person rebelling against the High King and insisting that Sauron is still around.  Galadrial isn't the young rebel.  She's old and terrifyingly powerful.  She's from the First Age.  She was born in Valinor and spent years soaking in its potent magic.  Diving off a boat and swimming to Middle Earth is something she could realistically expect to be able to do.  The High King handled her as he did because he was more than a little afraid that she might just shot-put his ass off the throne and decided that the Elves needed a High Queen AKA her.  Almost everyone around Galadrial is a weak toddler compared to her. 

[QuantumMechanic]

19 minutes ago, johntfs said:

  Hide contents

Figure most people are seeing Galadrial as the young person rebelling against the High King and insisting that Sauron is still around.  Galadrial isn't the young rebel.  She's old and terrifyingly powerful.  She's from the First Age.  She was born in Valinor and spent years soaking in its potent magic.  Diving off a boat and swimming to Middle Earth is something she could realistically expect to be able to do.  The High King handled her as he did because he was more than a little afraid that she might just shot-put his ass off the throne and decided that the Elves needed a High Queen AKA her.  Almost everyone around Galadrial is a weak toddler compared to her. 

Also, to extend what's said above (spoilered because it's some book stuff (character ages) -- it doesn't actually spoil anything):

Spoiler

Galadriel, despite how she's being portrayed, is 1,854 years older than Elrond, is slightly older than Celebrimbor, and is somewhere between the being the same age and being centuries older than the High King.

Edited September 6, 2022 by QuantumMechanic

[CletusMusashi]

Some of the elf stuff is okay when it's just one of the good characters. I like the one who's investigating the orc tunnel and I also like the one that looks like Neil Patrick Harris. The other ones are too uptight to be enjoyable characters.

I didn't expect to like the Harfoots, but I actually love them. They (at least the main two) are already directly involved in a main plot arc without any political drudgery, and their little communmity actually feels lived-in.

Like, with the elves I don't feel like I know if they actually live in houses or tents or WTF; they just all kind of wander around in the woods with immaculate clothing and shiny metal tools but there's no sense where anything they have actually comes from. The human and harfoot communities are busy and cluttered and sometimes dirty and it feels like there's some actual world-building going on in the writers' room. With elves, I'm not even sure if they poop.

And the dwarves? I did not expect them to be that well done. I mean, yes, one proverb about hammers per conversation is probably more than enough. But besides that they managed to keep a nice traditional fantasy-dwarf feel while still giving them an interesting and beautiful home.

This was far better than the first episode. I may actually like this show.

[tennisgurl]

This was definitely an improvement on the first episode, but I am still not that impressed. It all still feels very style over substance, the sets, effects, and filming look amazing, but I still am not really connecting. The dialogue is still stilted more often than not and it feels like we are are getting LOTR the abridged version instead of its own epic story, but the improvement makes me a bit more hopeful for the show going forward. Right now its beautiful but boring with lovely scenery and fascinating designs but the story itself is generic fantasy for beginners, but it seems like it could be settling in. 

The sea monster was really cool and everything with the boat people was surprisingly intense, even if I don't know if it will mean much in the long run. At least Galadriel made a friend and even expressed a few emotions besides determined and pissed, even if it was just for a second. I feel bad, but Galadriel is the weak link for me so far, she's boring and has become this generic tough fantasy heroine that makes her not very interesting.

This episode in general leaned heavier on the horror/action, which did manage to breath some life into the show after how dry last week was, and the creatures all looked quite creepy. Nice to be reminded how even a single Orc is a huge threat to regular people, and Bronwyn showing everyone the head in the tavern and then everyone getting the hell out of the dodge was the best that subplot has been.

Leave it to the dwarfs to liven the party up! The trip to the dwarf kingdom was fun, it looks gorgeous and the dwarf prince and his family were fun, he and Elron were fun together, I am glad that they reconciled even if it looks like trouble is brewing. I have to say though, its not really on Elron that he didn't make it to the wedding, how was he supposed to know Durin was getting married if he never apparently sent him an invitation? Its not like its easy to traverse Middle Earth just to say hi...except maybe it is, considering how easily the elves just seemed to casually wander over to the dwarf mountain. Where exactly is everyone in relation to everyone else, and are they all happening at once? 

The firefly scene was a classic magical LOTR style bit, I am liking the Hartfoots and their comic relief more than I thought I would, there is a feeling of life there that isn't around in the rest of the subplots. 

I know that we are doing a lot of set up right now and everything will converge eventually, but all of the plots seem so separate from each other, it feels like we are watching several vignettes about life in Middle Earth instead of one story. I feel like the show is going "meanwhile..." during every scene transition, and while I get that they have a lot to do here, it makes it harder to get invested in any of the plots when we aren't getting very much of them. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by tennisgurl

[CletusMusashi]

Bronwyn fighting the orc was badass, because there was a sense that she was way out of her league and might not have enough plot armor to win. With Galadriel I never have that. All I felt about the "worm" was "golly, I wonder if she's gonna just swim over and knife it? yup." No real sense of stakes there. Even though they've built Sauron himself up into such an impossible to stop evil that I'm still wondering what she or even her little band of half a dozen elf soldiers from the pilot would actually do if they found him. So what we have is a main character who presumably can't face the final boss for a good while because she's not ready, but is blatantly over-qualified for the threats she'll be meeting along the way. Screw that. I'd rather watch the more normal characters level up.

Edited September 6, 2022 by CletusMusashi

[iMonrey]

Quote

I got a real "Logan's Run" vibe from that, like they were going to Carousel to be "reborn" (actually euthanized) , or The Island to have their organs harvested.

I couldn't tell what was going on either, I thought they were all getting blinded and/or burned by the intense light. There is just far too much expectation on the show's part that the audience understands all this stuff from being heavily into the world of Tolkien. The spoilers above really explain a lot that the show apparently assumes the audience already knows. I did not. 

[Haleth]

I’m guessing more of this will be made clear in upcoming episodes. 

[wanderingstar]

On 9/3/2022 at 2:21 AM, Zuleikha said:

Soldier elf and healer woman are fine.

Their story is the one I've hooked into so far* That might change depending on how it all unfolds. I'm also curious about Nori and The Stranger. I have a thought about who he might be, so curious to see if that will turn out to be right.

Kudos to Morfydd Clark. I assume filming those scenes in the Sundering Seas was not easy.

*I'm not saying that I'm biased because I like Ismael Cruz Cordova (Arondir) from his guest stint in S1 of The Mandalorian...but I'm not NOT saying it. 😆

[Constantinople]

On 9/5/2022 at 2:03 PM, TV Anonymous said:

There is one thing I do not quite understand. Where is, or rather, what is Valinor, the home of the elves? Is it a real place, real location separated by the Sundering Seas from the Middle-Earth or is it a place on different plane of reality? Why does the ship have to go through a portal of light if Valinor is in the same dimension as Middle Earth?

21 hours ago, mac123x said:

I got a real "Logan's Run" vibe from that, like they were going to Carousel to be "reborn" (actually euthanized) 

So you're saying Galadriel is a  r̶u̶n̶n̶e̶r̶ swimmer?

[MJ Frog]

11 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I know that we are doing a lot of set up right now and everything will converge eventually, but all of the plots seem so separate from each other, it feels like we are watching several vignettes about life in Middle Earth instead of one story. I feel like the show is going "meanwhile..." during every scene transition, and while I get that they have a lot to do here, it makes it harder to get invested in any of the plots when we aren't getting very much of them. 

It's a fair complaint, and many feel the same way. For whatever reason it doesn't bother me. Either I'm getting more patient in my old age, or I have the sense that these stories are all converging on the same point, which is the eventual return of Sauron, however this show chooses to represent that.

I can't believe I'm saying nice things, because whatever Rings of Power is, it's Tolkien adjacent at best. And legally, that's all it ever can be since the only thing things they have rights to from the Second Age are the bits found in LOTR and the appendices. I think I have resigned myself to this and just decided to enjoy the pretty ride. It would have been nice to see all this money go towards those incredibly beautiful stories from the Silmarillion, and I despair that I will ever see them on screen, but so it goes.

[johntfs]

8 minutes ago, MJ Frog said:

It's a fair complaint, and many feel the same way. For whatever reason it doesn't bother me. Either I'm getting more patient in my old age, or I have the sense that these stories are all converging on the same point, which is the eventual return of Sauron, however this show chooses to represent that.

I can't believe I'm saying nice things, because whatever Rings of Power is, it's Tolkien adjacent at best. And legally, that's all it ever can be since the only thing things they have rights to from the Second Age are the bits found in LOTR and the appendices. I think I have resigned myself to this and just decided to enjoy the pretty ride. It would have been nice to see all this money go towards those incredibly beautiful stories from the Silmarillion, and I despair that I will ever see them on screen, but so it goes.

Figure among other things this show is a "proof of concept" to the Tolkien estate that Bezos and co. can and will handle J.R.R. Tolkien's work and world in a competent respectful way.  So wet clothes or not, no elf or hobbit titties (or Marvel snark) here.

Assuming the estate likes what they see, we might well get a Silmarillion series.  Or at least a series of series based around it's stories because it's just a sprawling story that covers 1000s of years.

[QuantumMechanic]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

Figure among other things this show is a "proof of concept" to the Tolkien estate that Bezos and co. can and will handle J.R.R. Tolkien's work and world in a competent respectful way.  So wet clothes or not, no elf or hobbit titties (or Marvel snark) here.

Assuming the estate likes what they see, we might well get a Silmarillion series.  Or at least a series of series based around it's stories because it's just a sprawling story that covers 1000s of years.

So many good things in there you could build series on.  You could have a romance/hero/action series with

Spoiler

Beren and Luthien

You could have dark, grim tragedy series with

Spoiler

Turin Turambar

and on and on...

[MJ Frog]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

Figure among other things this show is a "proof of concept" to the Tolkien estate that Bezos and co. can and will handle J.R.R. Tolkien's work and world in a competent respectful way. 

That's a nice thought, and if true I would hope it happens sooner rather than later. From the story of Numenor to the events that set up the Third Age, the Second Age is a barnburner and I would love to see it handled properly. Assuming the showrunners are capable of that -- if that glowy thing in Durin's box turns out to be a Silmaril I swear to God...

[Zuleikha]

12 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

*I'm not saying that I'm biased because I like Ismael Cruz Cordova (Arondir) from his guest stint in S1 of The Mandalorian...but I'm not NOT saying it. 😆

Whoa! I just looked up his IMDB to see who he was. Very different character! I'm glad we get to see his actual face in this role.

[johntfs]

5 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

That's a nice thought, and if true I would hope it happens sooner rather than later. From the story of Numenor to the events that set up the Third Age, the Second Age is a barnburner and I would love to see it handled properly. Assuming the showrunners are capable of that -- if that glowy thing in Durin's box turns out to be a Silmaril I swear to God...

It's not a Silmaril.  If it's a Silmaril that bit ends with Elrond taking it and possibly killing Durin for having it in the first place.  It's almost certainly Mithral ore.

[quarks]

The thing in the box could be a Silmaril - they were briefly mentioned in the show, but --

[Cut/spoilered because the rest of this is book and movie talk, though I don't think it's otherwise overly spoilery.]

Spoiler

There are two good reasons for thinking it isn't. First, whatever is in that chest doesn't seem to be bright enough to be a Silmaril.  That light doesn't always seem to be consistent - Sam has to activate the glass goblet/jewel thingy said to have the "light from Earendil" - that is, a Silmaril - in order to see the light, but when he does, just that bit of light from one Silmaril is enough to light up an entire cave and fight off a giant spider. So I would think that a full Silmaril would be much, much brighter than what we saw coming from the chest, though I guess it could be kinda dim until activated, as it was in the films.

Second, my understanding is that while the show can expand from the materials in the Lord of the Rings, it can't directly contradict Tolkien's material - and Tolkien seemed to be pretty clear on this: the Silmarils were permanently lost to air, sea and earth, not kept in chests in Khazad-dum. I suppose the show could argue that this is the Silmaril that fell into the cracks of the earth, carried by Maedhros, that the dwarves happened to find when they mining, or argue that for some reason Earendil's Silmaril fell from the sky and the dwarves found it - which might suggest that the Stranger is Earendil, who decided to take a fast meteorite trip to Middle-Earth to find the Silmaril. But again, that seems to be a pretty direct contradiction of Tolkien, who stated in various places that Earendil - and that Silmaril - never returned to Middle-Earth. So I don't think the show can go there.  

So although it could be a Silmaril, I think it's more likely that the chest holds mithril or the Arkenstone. More likely mithril, since the Arkenstone was featured on The Hobbit and quite a lot of the promotional materials for the film, meaning that Warner Bros probably holds the film rights for it. 

[Ilovepie]

On 9/5/2022 at 8:44 AM, mojoween said:

The show comes to a dead stop to me whenever Galadriel shows up on screen.  She’s so dour and unpleasant.  I get why, and I think she’s supposed to be the main focus of the show? but I would rather be on any other plot line.

On 9/6/2022 at 8:01 AM, tennisgurl said:

I feel bad, but Galadriel is the weak link for him so far, she's boring and has become this generic tough fantasy heroine vibe that makes her not very interesting.

I sadly agree with both posts here - After the first episode I thought I liked her, but now, meh. She needs a wider range of emotion than just surly, snarly anger. It's not a good look for an elf - she's acting more like a dwarf! Also, for such a badass elf, she's not shown it too much. She can scale a mountain and swim, but so what? She worked her crew to the point of mutiny last episode, and this time she had to be rescued by a.....human? after making the wrong choice to tie the rope around her waist. She's too old (in elf years) to be actually acting like the young lady she looks like.

[MJ Frog]

13 hours ago, johntfs said:

It's not a Silmaril.  If it's a Silmaril that bit ends with Elrond taking it and possibly killing Durin for having it in the first place.  It's almost certainly Mithral ore.

I do hope so. That would make far more sense. Lotta trouble may come from that.

[Raachel2008]

On 9/7/2022 at 12:10 AM, johntfs said:

Assuming the estate likes what they see, we might well get a Silmarillion series. 

Likes what they see and are offered a ton of money. I would love to know how much they paid to have the rights to what we are watching on screen and if there is some sort of veto on the final script etc.

[quarks]

6 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Likes what they see and are offered a ton of money. I would love to know how much they paid to have the rights to what we are watching on screen and if there is some sort of veto on the final script etc.

Amazon supposedly paid around $250 million for the global rights to WB/Time Warner (soon to be Warner Media) and the Tolkien Estate. Most of that, though, would have gone to WB/Time Warner, not the Estate, and at least some of the Estate money goes directly to the Tolkien Trust, a charitable organization, not Tolkien family members. The Tolkien Estate holds at least some veto power over the final scripts, though I don't know how much actual vetoing they've done. Simon Tolkien is credited as a "consultant." 

It was widely rumored at the time that Amazon was less interested in a LOTR show and more interested in keeping Time Warner/Warner Media from getting a second Game of Thrones and dominating the streaming industry, thus the willingness to pay that much for the rights, but that may just be Hollywood gossip. 

[Paloma]

On 9/6/2022 at 11:01 AM, tennisgurl said:

This was definitely an improvement on the first episode, but I am still not that impressed. It all still feels very style over substance, the sets, effects, and filming look amazing, but I still am not really connecting. The dialogue is still stilted more often than not and it feels like we are are getting LOTR the abridged version instead of its own epic story, but the improvement makes me a bit more hopeful for the show going forward. Right now its beautiful but boring with lovely scenery and fascinating designs but the story itself is generic fantasy for beginners,

I was not engaged by the first episode but decided to give the second episode a chance because my husband enjoyed the first episode. Unfortunately, the second episode still did not engage me, though I agree it was an improvement over the first episode. I loved the LOTR movies (I have not read the books), and I know it would be too much to expect that this series could be as good, but there's just not enough "there" there, aside from the beautiful sets and costumes, and the acting is not anywhere near the level of the movies. Other problems for me are (1) I can't keep track of all the characters beyond the general categories of elves, dwarves, and harfoot (harfeet?) and (2) as others have suggested, there is not enough information for those viewers who are not LOTR superfans or who have forgotten important details about these worlds. I'm not saying that everything needs to be spelled out, but providing a bit more information about the background of the characters might help to engage more viewers. For example, when Elron (Elrond?) told the smith that he would talk to the dwarf prince because they were old friends, and subsequently when the prince was telling Elron why he was offended, I couldn't figure out how an elf and a dwarf prince would meet, much less become good friends. It seemed like elves and dwarves live in different worlds, rarely meet, and have nothing in common. So without any explanation of how this friendship began, the whole subplot took me out of the show.

I'm sure this is wrong but will spoiler tag anyway. When the bearded man was found, I couldn't help but wonder

Spoiler

if he was Gandolf, though I really have no basis for that idea.

I do kind of like Nori, Disa, and Arondir--who are all, not coincidentally, straightforward personalities without any apparent hidden agenda. Plus with Arondir, I'm always a sucker for an honorable guy who can't admit or act on his love for a woman. But so far none of the other characters are interesting enough to care about. My husband still wants to watch, so I may continue watching to keep him company. But if the third episode still does not engage me, I will probably read a book while he's watching.