S01.E01: A Normal Amount of Rage

[Smad]

2 hours ago, Dani said:

To me calling them dicks is downplaying what happened in that scene. They were going to assault her. Which happens all the time to women. It is something every woman has to be aware of and concerned about constantly. It is a fact of life. Just like men assume women don’t understand what they are talking about all the time. Another fact of life for woman. Showing a woman dealing with those things isn’t man bashing. It is accurately representing what women experience.

But then how about some equality? Women can be abusers and commit sexual assault as well. Ask a male bartender how grabby women can get when they have a few. I believe the only Marvel product to have something approaching that was Ms. Marvel with the abusive mother.

But I love Jen equating catcalling and mansplaining to murder (hope no one tells her almost 80% of homicide victims are male). She says that to the guy who was severely abused by his father. Who had to watch his abusive father murder his mother. That the reason Hulk comes out via anger and why he is a separate entity is all tied to Bruce's childhood trauma. That Bruce gets blamed for everything Hulk does and often has to live in hiding or being hunted by the army. But yes Jen, mansplaining is more horrifying and dangerous than anything Bruce ever went through.

[TimothyQ]

On second watch, what at first was funny (objectifying Steve Rogers and speculating on his love life, or lack there of) really came off as totally hypocritical to me. After Jen stating that she is objectified by men, perhaps she should’ve just left Steve alone. I’d just love some consistency in the message here. 

[theredhead77]

I really enjoyed this episode and loved the interactions between Jen and Bruce and Hulk vs. Hulk. I don't read the comic books, and I don't consider myself a Marvel "super-fan". I'm also 100% down for a show based on a woman's perspective, even if it's not "all women". Being cat-called, talked down to, having to be hyper-aware of our surroundings, and wondering if that group of dudes are just drunk and overly friendly or up to something nefarious are all aspects of our lives to varying degrees. What I hope we don't see on the screen are "whataboutisims" to downplay or negate Jen's experience. There is already enough of that IRL.

Looking forward to episode 2!

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Smad said:

But then how about some equality?

Why does one of the few superhero shows with a female lead need to be representative of how men are treated? I’d love to see Marvel delve more into the effects of toxic masculinity but this show isn’t the place for it. 

29 minutes ago, Smad said:

I believe the only Marvel product to have something approaching that was Ms. Marvel with the abusive mother.

Ms. Marvel? I don’t remember an abusive mother. But Moon Knight’s entire characterization focuses on exactly that. 

30 minutes ago, Smad said:

But I love Jen equating catcalling and mansplaining to murder (hope no one tells her almost 80% of homicide victims are male).

To me making a list of things women experience is not equating them. 

[MrWhyt]

2 hours ago, Smad said:

But then how about some equality? Women can be abusers and commit sexual assault as well.

sure women can be bad people too, but what do think happens more often: a woman raped by a group of men or a man raped by a group of women?

edit: when the # of sexual crimes by women against men match the # of sexual crimes by men against women maybe an "lets have equality" argument would be valid.

Edited August 21, 2022 by MrWhyt

[Smad]

2 hours ago, Dani said:

I’d love to see Marvel delve more into the effects of toxic masculinity but this show isn’t the place for it.

Guess you missed GOTG 1 and especially GOTG 2. And there has been plenty with other male characters, they just didn't bother to have a running commentary about it. It was just...there.

2 hours ago, Dani said:

Ms. Marvel? I don’t remember an abusive mother. But Moon Knight’s entire characterization focuses on exactly that. 

Didn't remember which one it was but thanks for the correction.

2 hours ago, Dani said:

To me making a list of things women experience is not equating them. 

I'm sorry but this character sounds crazy. Nothing wrong with calling out things a woman can experience. But in a universe that has Natasha Romanoff, Gamora, Nebula and Yelena Belova in it...a woman equating catcalling and mansplaining (aka the worst to ever happen to this character apparently) to being murdered is so beyond bonkers. These 4 women suffered through decades of abuse and lived with the possibility of actually being killed pretty much every single day. Hell you could even add Wanda to this list (growing up in a poor, war torn country/parents tragically dying/loosing her brother). If Marvel wants to make a show to specifically tackle actual issues women face in daily life then by all means go for it. But for God's sake, take the kids gloves off and dispense with the nonsense.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Smad

[starri]

All right, let's move the conversation back to the episode, please.

[shapeshifter]

When watching the episode, the Captain America gossip didn’t really register. But now that it seems to be getting so much notice, I’m wondering if it’s foreshadowing.  
I realize on a show like this, a 95-year-old superhero could get rejuvenated in any number of ways using all sorts of handwavium substances and devices, but it could be really cool for him to show up as an elderly mentor.

Or maybe it was just a bit of juvenile joking that the writers couldn’t bear to cut.

[arc]

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

But now that it seems to be getting so much notice, I’m wondering if it’s foreshadowing. 

I resisted all the Mephisto speculation on Wandavision because it was clearly fans spinning themselves up over nothing, but I am halfway to buying that Steve's not 100% gone. It was weird how FATWS was clearly written to be about how Steve's closest friends were dealing with life after Steve yet the show wouldn't fully commit to saying Steve was dead. And now in the post-credits scene of this show, which is canon straight from Feige, the wording was Steve isn't a virgin, not wasn't.

See also how Ms Marvel dropped a huge teaser for the future of the MCU in a single line near the end of the season finale. I (with blind faith) assume the Marvel studio machine goes over specific dialogue very carefully when they want to lay in foreshadowing.

Edited August 22, 2022 by arc

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, arc said:

And now in the post-credits scene of this show, which is canon straight from Feige, the wording was Steve isn't a virgin, not wasn't.

. . . I (with blind faith) assume the Marvel studio machine goes over specific dialogue very carefully when they want to lay in foreshadowing.

I didn’t even clock the verb tense indicating Captain America/Steve Rogers is alive while I was watching. And then his being alive was kind of glossed over here and elsewhere, with seemingly all discussions of that line in this episode focusing on the appropriateness (raunchiness?) of the humor surrounding a discussion of a person’s virginity.

But that Variety article (thanks for the link, @arc) interviewing series lead writer Jessica Gao seems to point at

Spoiler

a bigger purpose for the virgin dialogue, which I’m spoiler tagging in case my interpretation is true but not supposed to be revealed just yet:

From these lines of the Variety article:

Quote

A big theme of the show is identity. . . .

There used to be a season-long runner where the thing that is constantly gnawing away at Jen is this question of whether or not Steve Rogers had ever had sex. 

my takeaway is that Jen suspects Steve is her father, much like Stargirl believed Starman was hers.

Maybe Peggy Carter will be Jen’s mother?

I’m a very sporadic watcher of genre shows, so this speculation may be off-base chronologically and otherwise.

My point is that the humor, offensive or not, may be secondary to the substance of the reveal.

Edited August 22, 2022 by shapeshifter

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I didn’t even clock the verb tense indicating Captain America/Steve Rogers is alive while I was watching. And then his being alive was kind of glossed over here and elsewhere, with seemingly all discussions of that line in this episode focusing on the appropriateness (raunchiness?) of the humor surrounding a discussion of a person’s virginity.

But that Variety article (thanks for the link, @arc) interviewing series lead writer Jessica Gao seems to point at

  Hide contents

a bigger purpose for the virgin dialogue, which I’m spoiler tagging in case my interpretation is true but not supposed to be revealed just yet:

From these lines of the Variety article:

my takeaway is that Jen suspects Steve is her father, much like Stargirl believed Starman was hers.

Maybe Peggy Carter will be Jen’s mother?

I’m a very sporadic watcher of genre shows, so this speculation may be off-base chronologically and otherwise.

My point is that the humor, offensive or not, may be secondary to the substance of the reveal.

In my opinion that hint is so very stupid and would

undo Bruce and Jen's relationship as cousins.

[paigow]

Old Steve [who gave Sam the shield] could still be alive today... so the present tense might apply... 

[Dandesun]

Well as far as I'm concerned, Steve went and had his dance with Peggy then got Natasha back and then came back and decided to go to art school and is living with Bucky and they are making out and having the sex all. the. time.

Also, he was horribly embarrassed by the idea of Rogers: the Musical but he and Bucky went to see it and Steve liked it more than he thought he was because it was so wildly inaccurate. Plus they were all really good singers.

Which is a long-winded way of saying: canon never bothered me anyway.

As for this show, yes. I quite enjoyed it. It was fun, the rapport between Jen and Bruce was believable to me and, come on, Hulk Fight! Bruce is obviously missing Tony (Science Bros!) and that makes me sad (I can also happily make Tony not dead in my head, too. He had all of the Infinity Stones, there's a lot of room to work with from a fanfic pov.)

AND I look forward to more.

[GHScorpiosRule]

22 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

Which is a long-winded way of saying: canon never bothered me anyway.

Had to give you the 😅 because of the first two paragraphs! Hey! I sent yous* a PM.

*Not a typo!

[Stardancer Supreme]

12 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

In my opinion that hint is so very stupid and would

  Reveal spoiler

undo Bruce and Jen's relationship as cousins.

Not necessarily. 

Spoiler

Jen's mother and Bruce's father are siblings in the comics.  As long as Jen's mother is a Banner, it really wouldn't matter who her father is to preserve the cousin relationship with Bruce Banner.

[johntfs]

On 8/22/2022 at 12:44 PM, Dandesun said:

Well as far as I'm concerned, Steve went and had his dance with Peggy then got Natasha back and then came back and decided to go to art school and is living with Bucky and they are making out and having the sex all. the. time.

Also, he was horribly embarrassed by the idea of Rogers: the Musical but he and Bucky went to see it and Steve liked it more than he thought he was because it was so wildly inaccurate. Plus they were all really good singers.

Which is a long-winded way of saying: canon never bothered me anyway.

As for this show, yes. I quite enjoyed it. It was fun, the rapport between Jen and Bruce was believable to me and, come on, Hulk Fight! Bruce is obviously missing Tony (Science Bros!) and that makes me sad (I can also happily make Tony not dead in my head, too. He had all of the Infinity Stones, there's a lot of room to work with from a fanfic pov.)

AND I look forward to more.

That kind of makes Bucky a cheating bitch because he was clearly trying to date that waitress is Falcon and the Winter Soldier.  And there seemed to be a little something brewing between him and Sam's sister as well.

If you must fanfic, how about Steve danced with Peggy and lived a full life with her until she died.  He then returned and he's now in Bucky's old suspension chamber in Wakanda until the Wakandans figure out how to use vibranium to cure old age?

[starri]

Please take discussion of other shows/movies/the broader MCU to the appropriate threads.

Thank you.

[Gimmick Genius]

On 8/23/2022 at 4:39 PM, johntfs said:

That kind of makes Bucky a cheating bitch because he was clearly trying to date that waitress is 

If you must fanfic, how about Steve danced with Peggy and lived a full life with her until she died.  He then returned and he's now in Bucky's old suspension chamber in Wakanda until the Wakandans figure out how to use vibranium to cure old age?

As per Starri's admonition above, I'll speculate on the Small Talk:Sensational thread.

[moonshine71]

On 8/22/2022 at 5:45 AM, shapeshifter said:

I didn’t even clock the verb tense indicating Captain America/Steve Rogers is alive while I was watching. And then his being alive was kind of glossed over here and elsewhere, with seemingly all discussions of that line in this episode focusing on the appropriateness (raunchiness?) of the humor surrounding a discussion of a person’s virginity.

But that Variety article (thanks for the link, @arc) interviewing series lead writer Jessica Gao seems to point at

  Hide contents

a bigger purpose for the virgin dialogue, which I’m spoiler tagging in case my interpretation is true but not supposed to be revealed just yet:

From these lines of the Variety article:

my takeaway is that Jen suspects Steve is her father, much like Stargirl believed Starman was hers.

Maybe Peggy Carter will be Jen’s mother?

I’m a very sporadic watcher of genre shows, so this speculation may be off-base chronologically and otherwise.

My point is that the humor, offensive or not, may be secondary to the substance of the reveal.

Spoiler

That would make Jen either at least 80 years old or under 20 years old, so yeah, pretty off base chronologically. And Peggy would have been about 70 by the time Jen was born.

P.S. Editing to add, if she were to actually suspect that, it makes her comments about Steve's ass super creepy, so god no

Edited August 25, 2022 by moonshine71

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 8/21/2022 at 5:51 PM, Smad said:

But I love Jen equating catcalling and mansplaining to murder (hope no one tells her almost 80% of homicide victims are male). She says that to the guy who was severely abused by his father. Who had to watch his abusive father murder his mother. That the reason Hulk comes out via anger and why he is a separate entity is all tied to Bruce's childhood trauma. That Bruce gets blamed for everything Hulk does and often has to live in hiding or being hunted by the army. But yes Jen, mansplaining is more horrifying and dangerous than anything Bruce ever went through.

Has that background been made part of the MCU?

On 8/21/2022 at 6:09 PM, TimothyQ said:

On second watch, what at first was funny (objectifying Steve Rogers and speculating on his love life, or lack there of) really came off as totally hypocritical to me. After Jen stating that she is objectified by men, perhaps she should’ve just left Steve alone. I’d just love some consistency in the message here. 

There is some validity to this point. However, there is a big difference between a man gossiping with his (female) cousin about whether a famous woman whom he doesn't know is a virgin, and a man offering to personally "help" said woman lose her virginity.  Jen wasn't having this conversation with a whole bunch of people who might start rumors, but with someone she was as close to as a brother who wouldn't repeat her conversation.  Furthermore, she certainly wasn't making sexualized comments or threats directly to Steve, which is the behavior she was previously complaining about to Bruce.  So, although I agree her comments were not at all classy, and Bruce clearly found them inappropriate, she hadn't been complaining about gossip, but about actual or perceived threats of a sexual nature.

Edited August 29, 2022 by ItCouldBeWorse

[CletusMusashi]

On 8/21/2022 at 6:09 PM, TimothyQ said:

On second watch, what at first was funny (objectifying Steve Rogers and speculating on his love life, or lack there of) really came off as totally hypocritical to me. After Jen stating that she is objectified by men, perhaps she should’ve just left Steve alone. I’d just love some consistency in the message here. 

Yeah, but people are hypocrites. That why I kind of hate Philosophy. Not lower-case "work smarter, not harder" philosophy, but the egghgead "Capital P" shit. Too much of it is faux-mathematical proof that if you have opinion A then you must automatically move on to conclusion B and so forth. But actual personalities and feelings don't work that way in real life. Shit, even computer operating systems have problematic inconsistencies.

Also, she's joking around privately with her cousin. She's not publicly catcalling Steve. She's not chasing him into a parking lot at night with three other horny she-hulks. She's not even posting on Twitter about him. Since the only thing really at stake is Steve's feelings, it's not only a victimless crime; it's a crimeless crime.

Now as far as what the guys outside the bar were actually going to do and whether or not she over-reacted... honestly, I have no idea. So I'm gonna do something that we don't actually have the luxury of doing when having discussions about real life violence and, instead of pondering it and getting angry, I'm going to err on the side of the fictional narrative that I'm enjoying. The fact that I have to do that is perhaps a small flaw in writing clarity, but not necessarily in story theme or character ethics.

[johntfs]

On 8/21/2022 at 7:37 PM, Smad said:

a woman equating catcalling and mansplaining (aka the worst to ever happen to this character apparently) to being murdered is so beyond bonkers.

Jen wasn't equating cat-calling, man-splaining and murder, she was listing them as the possible consequences of... being a woman.  There's an anti-drunk driving commercial that lists possible consequences of driving drunk: losing your insurance, having your driver's license revoked, getting yourself or somehow else killed.  Hell, look at any commercial for prescription drugs and note the side effects which can include death.

Jen was pushing back at Bruce's assertion that his experience as a Hulk naturally trumps Jen's experience as a human female living on 21st century Earth and it doesn't.  Sometimes, plenty of times, not being a straight, white, cisgender male sucks.  That's just the truth of our world.  And apparently in the MCU as well.

[Emily Thrace]

On 8/21/2022 at 4:51 PM, Smad said:

But then how about some equality? Women can be abusers and commit sexual assault as well. Ask a male bartender how grabby women can get when they have a few. I believe the only Marvel product to have something approaching that was Ms. Marvel with the abusive mother.

But I love Jen equating catcalling and mansplaining to murder (hope no one tells her almost 80% of homicide victims are male). She says that to the guy who was severely abused by his father. Who had to watch his abusive father murder his mother. That the reason Hulk comes out via anger and why he is a separate entity is all tied to Bruce's childhood trauma. That Bruce gets blamed for everything Hulk does and often has to live in hiding or being hunted by the army. But yes Jen, mansplaining is more horrifying and dangerous than anything Bruce ever went through.

Bruce's abusive backstory doesn't seem to be a part of the MCU actually. There were some vague hints in the first movie but no actual confirmation. Or at least Jen doesn't seem to know about it. If she did you would have think it would have come up at some point. Like when she took Bruce apart when she was trying to leave. It could be a family secret but it seems like at the very least Jen doesn't know about any abuse and neither does the world at large. 

[Guest]

On 8/25/2022 at 10:11 PM, johntfs said:

Jen was pushing back at Bruce's assertion that his experience as a Hulk naturally trumps Jen's experience as a human female living on 21st century Earth and it doesn't.  Sometimes, plenty of times, not being a straight, white, cisgender male sucks.  That's just the truth of our world.  And apparently in the MCU as well.

Exactly. Jen explaining her experience does not devalue his in the slightest. Bruce can have what is universally seen as a harder life but that has nothing to do with Jen being better at controlling her anger due to her life experience. That also doesn’t mean Jen or the writers are saying that she is better than Bruce the way some are interpreting that scene. 

Their relationships with anger are different so their journeys as Hulks will also be different. Which I think is a good thing because what’s the point of Jen having the same storyline as Bruce. 

That’s exactly why I don’t think the training scenes were saying that Jen is better than Bruce. They just have different issues to work on. Bruce needed to learn how to rein in his anger. Jen needs to learn how to express her anger rather than always suppressing it. 

[shapeshifter]

This perfectly describes the episode in a nutshell:

1 hour ago, Dani said:

Bruce needed to learn how to rein in his anger. Jen needs to learn how to express her anger rather than always suppressing it. 

I loved the way Smart Hulk/Bruce’s face expressed what a revelation this was to him, which he quickly absorbed and then applied to Jen’s Hulk training. 

[AnimeMania]

Jameela Jamil talks about her fight with the She-Hulk.

[LadyChaos]

I think I finally have the words to explain what I ultimately think is wrong with this episode.

The fact that the show runners felt the need to completely invalidate all of Hulk's trauma  and life experiences, to validate their character.

At least, IMO, thats how it comes across.

Also the fact that not 3 minutes before her speech, she lost her temper and hulked out on a bunch of guys who were hitting on her....showing that she doesn't have as much control over her anger as she says.

Edited September 2, 2022 by LadyChaos

[Bruinsfan]

I think that went well beyond "hitting on" and into "stalking like a pack of predators flanking prey." I don't believe Jen getting pissed off at that shows a particular lack of control.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

The fact that the show runners felt the need to completely invalidate all of Hulk's trauma  and life experiences, to validate their character.

I see it as the opposite in many ways. Bruce couldn’t control Hulk and had to deal with an alter because he is so traumatized. That Bruce’s issues weren’t solely the result of him being a hulk but were because he has so much trauma.

Like how Moon Night showed characters who were avatars who didn’t have DID. This show just isn’t the place to focus on Bruce’s trauma and Bruce was unknowingly projecting his trauma on Jen.

Validating one person’s trauma doesn’t invalidate another’s.

6 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

Also the fact that not 3 minutes before her speech, she lost her temper and hulked out on a bunch of guys who were hitting on her....showing that she doesn't have as much control over her anger as she says.

But she didn’t lose her temper when they hit on. She was polite but not friendly, made it clear she wasn’t interested, walked away and made up a lie about her boyfriend coming to try and deter them. She only turned when they followed her and began to fan out and said, “Where you going?”, “We’re just being friendly.” and “So what? You’re to good to talk to us.”

Being hit on can be annoying but things like that at night in a parking lot with no one around and where they are between you and safety is terrifying. Where was that situation going if she wasn’t a hulk? Every scenario I can think ends very badly for her unless Bruce shows up.

She didn’t appear to have control the second time she hulked out. She also didn’t initially have control the third time she hulked out but then she quickly gained it after she took care of the life threatening situation. 

[Sakura12]

She said she didn't have control when she first turned and with the guys harassing her. She quickly learned how to control it because she doesn't have all that trauma that Bruce has. He was thinking her experience was exactly like his and its not. 

She never said her trauma is worse then his. How she deals with her very different kind trauma is different then how he dealt with his very different kind of trauma. Because she hasn't gone through what he has makes it different not easier just different. Bruce has found ways to deal with his anger and Jen already knows how to mostly deal with hers. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 8/22/2022 at 4:45 AM, shapeshifter said:

I didn’t even clock the verb tense indicating Captain America/Steve Rogers is alive while I was watching. And then his being alive was kind of glossed over here and elsewhere, with seemingly all discussions of that line in this episode focusing on the appropriateness (raunchiness?) of the humor surrounding a discussion of a person’s virginity.

But that Variety article (thanks for the link, @arc) interviewing series lead writer Jessica Gao seems to point at

  Hide contents

a bigger purpose for the virgin dialogue, which I’m spoiler tagging in case my interpretation is true but not supposed to be revealed just yet:

From these lines of the Variety article:

my takeaway is that Jen suspects Steve is her father, much like Stargirl believed Starman was hers.

Maybe Peggy Carter will be Jen’s mother?

I’m a very sporadic watcher of genre shows, so this speculation may be off-base chronologically and otherwise.

My point is that the humor, offensive or not, may be secondary to the substance of the reveal.

It's unlikely if not impossible for Jen to think that Steve Rogers would be her father under a straight chronology. Steve went into the ice in 1943 or thereabouts. So if he had a kid from having had sex during the war, that kid would have been about 80 at the time of She-Hulk. And Cap was rescued approximately in 2011 (the dates for most of the movies prior to Endgame roughly correspond to when the movies were released). So obviously Jen being at least mid-20s means that she could not have been a child of Steve's after his returned.

Endgame created a situation where Cap went back in time and had a life with Peggy. But again, it doesn't seem plausible that a) Jen would know about that and b) Jen could be thinking that she was a child of such a union. 

Stargirl had reasons to think that Starman was her father in that a) the cosmic staff responded to both of them pretty uniquely so that was possibly genetic and b) she never knew her biological father and for whatever reason her mother never talked about him. Jen has grown up with her parents and there's no particular reason for her to think that they've lied about her heritage.

It's pretty much the case that Jen is just a curious fangirl about America's Ass. :)