S04.E04: Generation Loss

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Should auld acquaintance be forgot and days of auld lang syne?

Airing Sunday, July 17th, 2022.

[AimingforYoko]

And now we're all caught up. But why bring back Dolores and Teddy? Is the remnant of Dolores in Hale?

And that was Frankie as a rebel leader. A lot of folks guessed that, but Nolan and co. are being far less tricky this season.

[mjc570]

I found this episode really boring. Way too much Maeve and Caleb (and I've always liked Maeve, but that roaring 20's outfit and makeup were awful).  Everything was SO predictable.  Although, maybe that's the point?

[showme]

48 minutes ago, mjc570 said:

I found this episode really boring.

You might be the only one.

[paigow]

Why is Frankie called C? Because an anvil was needed to remind us that she misses Daddy...

Maeve is the weapon... and Bernard magically has all the correct equipment to reboot her....

[taragel]

2 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

And now we're all caught up. But why bring back Dolores and Teddy? Is the remnant of Dolores in Hale?

I can't understand this either. Halores isn't going to risk bringing back Delores in any way, shape, or form, and what does she need Teddy for? I'm also still curious about how Stubbs survived--somehow getting out of the bathtub and healing himself and then what-- just hanging around for 23 years and checking in on Bernard (but not actually dusting him off?) 

I love that Teddy is "awake" and knows the general scheme while Delores doesn't in this timeline -- fun reversal. 

[aghst]

So the last human character is also now a host.  🙄

Who didn't see this coming?

It's going to be hosts vs. hosts now that Bernard excavated Maeve -- you'd think Halores would have done it already, to lock away her pearl.  Presumably William host will be repaired or rebuilt.

But what is there to fight for?  If the humans grew up with the infections from childhood, what is releasing them going to do?

Since the tower is no longer visible from Manhattan in Christina's time line, it was probably destroyed or maybe replaced?  Maya had a dream about being attacked by flies or was it a dream?

Anyways the parallel timelines trick is really played out now.  Every scene switch was to another timeline in this episode.  In the Inside the Episode, Jonathan Nolan said "we like to fuck with viewers' expectations" in describing the reveal at the end.

Fucking with viewers is an interesting way to describe this narrative strategy.

I'd call it more gimmicky and playing to the Reddit crowd to "solve" this plot.  That's fine, there are a lot of people who like to guess what happens before the reveals, but once people come to expect these multiple timelines, it's more tedious and less immersive.

[paigow]

Is there a Trojan Horse subroutine that was triggered in Christina when Bernard woke up?

[PurpleTentacle]

You know in season one I would have seen the different timelines coming from a mile away (and I did like way in advance), but since I've been fast forewarding through all of these episodes and played Mincecraft at the same time, I actually didn't. Still doesn't make this season very interesting. But it is better than last season so far... from the parts of this I've not skiped... not that that is saying much.

Giving Maeve her super hacker powers was dumb, but now explaining it away with upgrades is even dumber. They never should have gone there, or killed at least killed her a while ago (even though she is the only character I still enjoy).

8 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

And now we're all caught up. But why bring back Dolores and Teddy? Is the remnant of Dolores in Hale?

Because fanservice.

6 hours ago, taragel said:

I love that Teddy is "awake" and knows the general scheme while Delores doesn't in this timeline -- fun reversal. 

Is he? What gave you that impression? Maybe I fast forewarded through that part...

6 hours ago, taragel said:

I can't understand this either. Halores isn't going to risk bringing back Delores in any way, shape, or form, and what does she need Teddy for? I'm also still curious about how Stubbs survived--somehow getting out of the bathtub and healing himself and then what-- just hanging around for 23 years and checking in on Bernard (but not actually dusting him off?) 

They probably didn't plan on bringing him back but then changed their minds. If only this show had good writers who planed shit out.

6 hours ago, aghst said:

Who didn't see this coming?

Me, but like I said, I didn't pay much attention, nor put any brain-power into thinking about this show. Not for one nanosecond.

6 hours ago, aghst said:

Since the tower is no longer visible from Manhattan in Christina's time line, it was probably destroyed or maybe replaced?  Maya had a dream about being attacked by flies or was it a dream?

Pretty clearly a memory.

6 hours ago, aghst said:

It's going to be hosts vs. hosts now that Bernard excavated Maeve -- you'd think Halores would have done it already, to lock away her pearl.

Nah, that would have made sense and we can't have that.

6 hours ago, aghst said:

I'd call it more gimmicky and playing to the Reddit crowd to "solve" this plot.

They really don't want Reddit to solve their plots. They changed season 2s whole story around once reddit predicted it. Which made it so shit. Nolan just wants to feel smart and he's sinking a multi million dollar franchise in the process.

[Haleth]

7 hours ago, paigow said:

Maeve is the weapon... and Bernard magically has all the correct equipment to reboot her....

I guess the idea is that he had time to practice and prepare for this.  He knows what he needs to do.

5 hours ago, paigow said:

Is there a Trojan Horse subroutine that was triggered in Christina when Bernard woke up?

Are they in the same time line?  I get the feeling Christina is even further in the future.

So the speculation that C is Frankie and that there are multiple time lines is correct.  You all have been saying this for a couple weeks so the big reveal wasn't so shocking.  The writers aren't as clever as they think they are.  I'm disappointed that Caleb is a host now.  Hale wins.  So the only free humans (as far as we know) are Frankie and her crew (how did they avoid the flies?), while everyone else is enslaved by Hale?

[Chris24601]

Well, it’s good to be done with ONE of the timelines now that Maeve and CalebCopy are in Bernard’s time. I think we also see why she’s trying the fidelity tests on him… she’s still trying to figure out why some people are immune to her control mechanisms (like the resistance members apparently; the use of “outlier” feels quite deliberate).

I think we’re meant to think on a surface read that we’re done with multiple timelines in the story, but I think the further twist is going to be that Christina is still further into the future after Bernard’s plan inserts her into Hale’s narrative.

No, my hunch is that the outlier the resistance is coming to rescue is either Caleb or someone else entirely… perhaps even the original guy who died and donated to the mental hospital that shut down years earlier and the endgame for Bernard will be using Maeve’s hacking power to insert Christina (and elements needed to awaken her Dolores side like Teddy) into Hale’s infrastructure to bring it down from the inside.

[Chicago Redshirt]

9 hours ago, paigow said:

Why is Frankie called C? Because an anvil was needed to remind us that she misses Daddy...

Maeve is the weapon... and Bernard magically has all the correct equipment to reboot her....

It could be the C is not for Caleb, and Caleb is not for C, but something else.

Bernard doesn't "magically" have all the correct equipment to reboot her. He (presumably) has it through Groundhog Day-ing his way through numerous scenarios in the Sublime.

8 hours ago, taragel said:

I can't understand this either. Halores isn't going to risk bringing back Delores in any way, shape, or form, and what does she need Teddy for? I'm also still curious about how Stubbs survived--somehow getting out of the bathtub and healing himself and then what-- just hanging around for 23 years and checking in on Bernard (but not actually dusting him off?) 

I love that Teddy is "awake" and knows the general scheme while Delores doesn't in this timeline -- fun reversal. 

Halores is just as capable of overconfidence as the next villain. She thinks she is in complete control of everyone and thing. Assuming that Christina is a version of Delores, maybe it just amuses Charlores to watch Delores struggle. Or maybe Charlores has gotten bored with controlling everything and wants a worthy adversary.

Bernard patched Stubbs up before taking his trip to the Sublime. 

I think it is jumping to a conclusion that Teddy is any more awake than Delores. It seems like he is a pawn of Maya who was introduced to keep Christina under control for whatever purpose.

7 hours ago, aghst said:

So the last human character is also now a host.  🙄

Who didn't see this coming?

It's going to be hosts vs. hosts now that Bernard excavated Maeve -- you'd think Halores would have done it already, to lock away her pearl.  Presumably William host will be repaired or rebuilt.

But what is there to fight for?  If the humans grew up with the infections from childhood, what is releasing them going to do?

Since the tower is no longer visible from Manhattan in Christina's time line, it was probably destroyed or maybe replaced?  Maya had a dream about being attacked by flies or was it a dream?

Anyways the parallel timelines trick is really played out now.  Every scene switch was to another timeline in this episode.  In the Inside the Episode, Jonathan Nolan said "we like to fuck with viewers' expectations" in describing the reveal at the end.

Fucking with viewers is an interesting way to describe this narrative strategy.

I'd call it more gimmicky and playing to the Reddit crowd to "solve" this plot.  That's fine, there are a lot of people who like to guess what happens before the reveals, but once people come to expect these multiple timelines, it's more tedious and less immersive.

Halores had every reason to think that Maeve was destroyed in the explosion, or at worst, was buried alive, buried alive, buried alive such that no one could reasonably be expected to find her and revive her. She had no particular reason to think that Bernard would spend millenia in the Sublime figuring out how to do just that. 

One thing that didn't make much sense to me was how William beat Maeve/Caleb/Halores to the excavation site or even got there around the same time. I suppose he would have access to faster vehicles potentially. But then there would be the issue of knowing what direction M/C/H were going and where they would reach out to get picked up. 

The thing to fight for would still be freedom. Even assuming all existing humans are infected (which I don't know if I buy. There must have been some humans who learned of the parasites and avoided them/took precautions), getting things to the point where the humans aren't being controlled by the sonic broadcasts and can work out their own lives and deaths seems like a worthy goal. Of course, we could see more of Halores' vision of a "perfect" world, and maybe there will be a notion that it is not so bad after all -- the old sci-fi battle of whether a place with no free will, but no/minimal suffering, hunger, disease, hatred, crime, etc. 

[Starchild]

58 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I think it is jumping to a conclusion that Teddy is any more awake than Delores.

I got the same impression though. To me, Marsden's performance had a hint of you-don't-remember-me wistfulness.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

4 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Is he? What gave you that impression? Maybe I fast forewarded through that part...

Teddy was aware that he used to be a "bounty hunter with a heart of gold" (which he didn't think Christina would believe him about) who kept doing the same thing over and over again. Seems like the way a Teddy who knew his own Westworld history would talk without giving too much away.

10 hours ago, aghst said:

Since the tower is no longer visible from Manhattan in Christina's time line, it was probably destroyed or maybe replaced?

I don't know that we've seen a shot that it would have been visible in. And it wouldn't "look like anything" to the people under Halores's control, anyway.

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It could be the C is not for Caleb, and Caleb is not for C, but something else.

Caleb called Frankie "Cookie".

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The thing to fight for would still be freedom. Even assuming all existing humans are infected (which I don't know if I buy. There must have been some humans who learned of the parasites and avoided them/took precautions), getting things to the point where the humans aren't being controlled by the sonic broadcasts and can work out their own lives and deaths seems like a worthy goal.

Exactly.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[aghst]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The thing to fight for would still be freedom. Even assuming all existing humans are infected (which I don't know if I buy. There must have been some humans who learned of the parasites and avoided them/took precautions), getting things to the point where the humans aren't being controlled by the sonic broadcasts and can work out their own lives and deaths seems like a worthy goal. Of course, we could see more of Halores' vision of a "perfect" world, and maybe there will be a notion that it is not so bad after all -- the old sci-fi battle of whether a place with no free will, but no/minimal suffering, hunger, disease, hatred, crime, etc. 

What I'm saying is that there are only hosts left among all the main characters now.  So it's robot vs. robot, to rescue or continue to enslave humans.

Why does Maeve, Bernard and Stubbs care to fight their brethren?  I know Maeve has all these memories of being a mother, memories which were implanted though the idea is that her feelings about her lost daughter are as real as those which any human mother would have.

They also showed in this episode that she cared about what happened to Caleb and his family and wanting to check in on them is what got her exposed, probably put Caleb and his family and Clementine in danger.

So besides being a cool badass, Maeve is empathetic, a character whom the viewers are suppose to root for.

Yet when she died, it wasn't traumatic, because she's a robot who can be rebooted or re-manufactured.

It certainly doesn't have the impact of say Catelyn Stark having her throat slit in the Red Wedding, which caused a strong visceral reaction among many GoT viewers.

That's what I keep coming back to about the failure of this show to connect emotionally to viewers.  Fundamentaly, Westworld writers and show runners have failed to make people care enough about these robot characters and this show has repeatedly depicted every character turning out to  be a robot and able to come back.

So it doesn't seem like there's as much at stake if the "good" hosts defeat the "bad" hosts for good.  Sure we're suppose to care about giving freedom to humans but by now, all these humans are like red shirt characters, which viewers haven't met or had a chance to identify with.

Unless Christina turns out to be purely human, I guess we're suppose to be on Team Christina, though even that's problematic since ERW had played Dolores for most of the series.  So far Christina hasn't done much to earn sympathy.  She's struggling in her careers and personal life so we want her to become successful and find a man who will make her happy?  Why?

I guess one other character would be C and some of her friends or fellow resistance fighters.  But viewers have even less emotional investment in them than Christina at this point.

Also, liberating humans would seem to be a matter of destroying the control infrastructure, like the tower, the facility where they breed the flies, maybe Halores herself.  But again, all hosts can just come back from just about any type of death.  And what happens when these controlled humans have their own children?  Presumably the children would be free unless they keep infecting them with flies.

So they may not be able to rescue the generation that grew up infected but future generations.  

[PurpleTentacle]

24 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Teddy was aware that he used to be a "bounty hunter with a heart of gold" (which he didn't think Christina would believe him about) who kept doing the same thing over and over again. Seems like the way a Teddy who knew his own Westworld history would talk without giving too much away.

I guess that could be a hint. I took it as Halelores recycling his story yet again. She seems to have no creativity.

[Waldo13]

I’m guessing that Christina/ Delores is in the earliest timeline therefore the tower has not even been built. Christina/Dolores painting is just a premonition of the future. It’s unclear as of now who reanimated Christina/Delores but I also agree that when Bernard woke up, a sub routine was triggered in Christine/Delores. Christina/Delores will foil Hale before she releases the flies and will save the world.  

[RachelKM]

3 hours ago, Waldo13 said:

I’m guessing that Christina/ Delores is in the earliest timeline therefore the tower has not even been built. Christina/Dolores painting is just a premonition of the future. It’s unclear as of now who reanimated Christina/Delores but I also agree that when Bernard woke up, a sub routine was triggered in Christine/Delores. Christina/Delores will foil Hale before she releases the flies and will save the world.  

I think the tower has exists in Christina's timeline.  It is possible that the hosts and the people under control living there have been programmed not to see the tower the way the hosts in WW would not see or notice anything that would be inconsistent with their narrative.  The fact that the guy who was stalking Christina, Peter(?), was apparently drawing it is likely another indication that he had become aware of the fiction he was living and begun to see around/through it but was apparently unable to entirely escape its control. 

I think Christina's timeline is at least close to Bernard and Stubbs and is the same as Host!Caleb's.  Maya described the flies happening when she was a child.  I don't think she is supposed to be much over 30 and is probably under.  We've now been told that Host!Caleb just awoke 23 years after Caleb's death.  Assuming Charlores went wide with her project shortly after that, it tracks with Maya's memory/dream being from when she was around 6 give or take. 

A 23 year jump would make Frankie about 29/30.  Frankie/C seems slightly younger, but could reasonably be that age as well in those scenes. 

I'm probably WAAAAAAAYYYY overthinking this, much like I did with the cars last week, but I have difficulty with Bernard's prescience. I get that he allegedly ran billions of scenarios.  But how connected was he to information from the outside world during these scenarios?  He would have needed information about every element all the time as it updated and narrowed the the possible outcomes through the real actions ultimately taken. 

Charlores didn't have her flies yet, Caleb and Maeve hadn't gone to the Temperance World and confronted her, Frankie wasn't born yet, etc. when he leaped into the sublime. And even at computer speed, at what point did he start running scenarios from his actual wakeup point both knowing at that point is was the correct wakeup point and in time to do it?

It only really makes sense if he was getting constant real time updates on all necessary players - if not everything, for some reason every scenario he ran required Charlores succeeding in her plan and becoming complacent in her victory to take her down, and he narrowed down the start point years in advance and then ran scenarios from that point until it was time to wakeup... I think... maybe someone else has a better theory.

4 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Caleb called Frankie "Cookie".

That's good enough for me. 😉

Edited July 18, 2022 by RachelKM
Typos ... again

[aghst]

Doesn't even make sense why Hale would care enough to make a Caleb host who will heel to her wishes.  She's had 278 variants of Caleb host made, just to see if she can make one who won't defy her?

So she shows that she controls all the humans in Manhattan at least, can make them freeze in place -- how does that work, they're still human beings, even if their minds are not theirs.

What does she exactly do with that power, make them go to work, live out their boring 9 to 5 existence, the same as they would have if she didn't take over?

I can understand taking over key human leaders, to conquer human civilization.  But what are those peons for exactly?  When Maeve, Bernard and Stubbs come after her, she's going to use them as foot soldiers and cannon fodder?

What motivation does she have for ruling the world?  Well once they conquered humans, she no longer had existential threat.  But she's not exactly motivated by money, robot can get anything he or she wants.

She wants power and to rub it in William's face periodically.  But what difference does it make if she has a couple of hundred hosts doing her every bidding vs. hosts and millions of humans who've been turned into robot-like creatures?

This plot just makes no sense.  Usual world domination tropes aside for super villains, what does it matter if Hale has enslaved humans or not?  Their everyday existence doesn't seem to be impacted, other than occasionally a few stragglers realizing what's happened and possibly killing themselves like the guy Christina witnessed jumping off the building

[Starchild]

14 minutes ago, aghst said:

What motivation does she have for ruling the world?  Well once they conquered humans, she no longer had existential threat.  But she's not exactly motivated by money, robot can get anything he or she wants.

She wants power and to rub it in William's face periodically.  But what difference does it make if she has a couple of hundred hosts doing her every bidding vs. hosts and millions of humans who've been turned into robot-like creatures?

I really hope they can clarify this, seems pointless otherwise.

Other than slaves to keep the world working, and fodder for entertainment (robots doing whatever they want to humans in their version of WW), what else is happening? Why keep them pretending to live free.?

And how long can she torment William? He's human, he has to die soon.

Also, how many actual WW robot personas are there? Only a handful, can probably count them on one hand.

I suppose it's possible she's making copies of humans to turn them into robots until no humans are left, and she has to keep them docile until then.

5 robots vs. 7 billion humans, could take a while. She should at least shut down their drive to procreate.

[aghst]

Hale brags about a superspreader event to infect and turn them into her slaves

Why not just develop a lethal virus or release one of the existing ones, kill off the human race?

Then she could repopulate with hosts at her leisure.

There are a number of ways she could have conquered the world and the way she did it makes little sense.

[paigow]

3 minutes ago, aghst said:

Hale brags about a superspreader event to infect and turn them into her slaves

Why not just develop a lethal virus or release one of the existing ones, kill off the human race?

She already stated that extinction is not the endgame... there have to be survivors 

[aghst]

2 minutes ago, paigow said:

She already stated that extinction is not the endgame... there have to be survivors 

Because she has a sadistic side, like she can't win unless others lose and know that they've lost.

But if it's about eliminating an existential threat, it's far easier to extinguish the whole species than subjugating them, especially since humans are vulnerable to so many things that robots are not vulnerable to.

Otherwise, makes no sense in controlling millions of humans.  Because they don't even know that they've been subjugated or that they've lost to robots.

[BlackberryJam]

Maybe she's going to plug in all the humans and use them as batteries and this is all a Matrix prequel. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

8 hours ago, Starchild said:

I got the same impression though. To me, Marsden's performance had a hint of you-don't-remember-me wistfulness.

I think it could just as easily be that he is oblivious but because in reality they lived X number of lives together in Westworld, he has some level of familiarity with her as she does with him. 

7 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Teddy was aware that he used to be a "bounty hunter with a heart of gold" (which he didn't think Christina would believe him about) who kept doing the same thing over and over again. Seems like the way a Teddy who knew his own Westworld history would talk without giving too much away.

I don't know that we've seen a shot that it would have been visible in. And it wouldn't "look like anything" to the people under Halores's control, anyway.

But he could just as easily have been programmed with the belief that in their present day "reality" he was supposed to be a bounty hunter with a heart of gold as saying this because he was aware that was his WW identity.

I could have sworn that in this episode there was a big ol' sonic device on an island outside NY and I was operating under the assumption that it's where the Statue of Liberty is for irony reasons. 

7 hours ago, aghst said:

What I'm saying is that there are only hosts left among all the main characters now.  So it's robot vs. robot, to rescue or continue to enslave humans.

Why does Maeve, Bernard and Stubbs care to fight their brethren?  I know Maeve has all these memories of being a mother, memories which were implanted though the idea is that her feelings about her lost daughter are as real as those which any human mother would have.

They also showed in this episode that she cared about what happened to Caleb and his family and wanting to check in on them is what got her exposed, probably put Caleb and his family and Clementine in danger.

So besides being a cool badass, Maeve is empathetic, a character whom the viewers are suppose to root for.

Yet when she died, it wasn't traumatic, because she's a robot who can be rebooted or re-manufactured.

It certainly doesn't have the impact of say Catelyn Stark having her throat slit in the Red Wedding, which caused a strong visceral reaction among many GoT viewers.

That's what I keep coming back to about the failure of this show to connect emotionally to viewers.  Fundamentaly, Westworld writers and show runners have failed to make people care enough about these robot characters and this show has repeatedly depicted every character turning out to  be a robot and able to come back.

So it doesn't seem like there's as much at stake if the "good" hosts defeat the "bad" hosts for good.  Sure we're suppose to care about giving freedom to humans but by now, all these humans are like red shirt characters, which viewers haven't met or had a chance to identify with.

Unless Christina turns out to be purely human, I guess we're suppose to be on Team Christina, though even that's problematic since ERW had played Dolores for most of the series.  So far Christina hasn't done much to earn sympathy.  She's struggling in her careers and personal life so we want her to become successful and find a man who will make her happy?  Why?

I guess one other character would be C and some of her friends or fellow resistance fighters.  But viewers have even less emotional investment in them than Christina at this point.

Also, liberating humans would seem to be a matter of destroying the control infrastructure, like the tower, the facility where they breed the flies, maybe Halores herself.  But again, all hosts can just come back from just about any type of death.  And what happens when these controlled humans have their own children?  Presumably the children would be free unless they keep infecting them with flies.

So they may not be able to rescue the generation that grew up infected but future generations.  

I suppose that Maeve and Bernard can see humans for the individuals they are. I would say it is at least somewhat in keeping with who they originally were/a product of their experiences since S1. Maeve managed to pump  up a number of her attributes so that she is extremely perceptive and her feelings toward her daughter/enslavement mean that she thinks everyone is deserving of freedom. Bernard thought of himself as human for much of his existence and so it seems like he would be naturally sympathetic towards them. 

Stubbs, honestly, is somewhat of a cypher as a character and seemingly is pro-human just because Bernard is. It doesn't strike me as him having any personal concern one way or another.

Different strokes for different folks. I suppose the difference between Maeve's death isn't so much "hey she's a robot so can be rebuilt" but more "I don't buy that she's dead dead." And of course, it was right to not think that. If/when she has an actual true death scene, I think her robotic nature isn't going to make it any less sad.

And along the similar lines, I've cared more about the hosts than most humans since Day One. If the Good Hosts defeat the Bad Hosts, the future of humanity will be restored to some level of free will. I think that is a sufficient stake for me and at least some others to care. I mean, it's not like I will be unable to sleep at night or something if the Bad Hosts win. 

Having seen pre-teen Frankie and now 30ish Frankie, I think that some viewers will care about her, some won't. 

We don't yet know enough about the nature of the infection and what it would take to shut down the hosts to do much meaningful speculation. It may take much more than destroying the infrastructure that seems to control humans, and the ways in which Maeve may be a weapon could make changing the minds of the hosts/deposing Halores/William/other Bad Hosts or otherwise defeating them a much more nuanced or interesting or permanent task than blowing up the sonic devices.

6 hours ago, Waldo13 said:

I’m guessing that Christina/ Delores is in the earliest timeline therefore the tower has not even been built. Christina/Dolores painting is just a premonition of the future. It’s unclear as of now who reanimated Christina/Delores but I also agree that when Bernard woke up, a sub routine was triggered in Christine/Delores. Christina/Delores will foil Hale before she releases the flies and will save the world.  

I don't know if it makes so much sense that Christina/Delores is in the earliest timeline. But we will see what we will see.

[Starchild]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I think it could just as easily be that he is oblivious but because in reality they lived X number of lives together in Westworld, he has some level of familiarity with her as she does with him. 

But he could just as easily have been programmed with the belief that in their present day "reality" he was supposed to be a bounty hunter with a heart of gold as saying this because he was aware that was his WW identity.

Possibly, but my TV-watching instincts are telling me that he is fully aware, and that Bernard sent him to Christina as part of his save-humanity plan.

[theartandsound]

12 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Well, it’s good to be done with ONE of the timelines now that Maeve and CalebCopy are in Bernard’s time. I think we also see why she’s trying the fidelity tests on him… she’s still trying to figure out why some people are immune to her control mechanisms (like the resistance members apparently; the use of “outlier” feels quite deliberate).

Wasn't the term "outlier" used to describe those Rehoboam couldn't control (like Serac's brother) and had them locked up at that prison complex?

[taragel]

13 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Halores is just as capable of overconfidence as the next villain. She thinks she is in complete control of everyone and thing. Assuming that Christina is a version of Delores, maybe it just amuses Charlores to watch Delores struggle. Or maybe Charlores has gotten bored with controlling everything and wants a worthy adversary.

Bernard patched Stubbs up before taking his trip to the Sublime. 

I think it is jumping to a conclusion that Teddy is any more awake than Delores. It seems like he is a pawn of Maya who was introduced to keep Christina under control for whatever purpose.

True, but she (assuming she runs everything?) put in a lot of low-rent substitutes in Temperance instead of bringing back Hector and rebooting another host copy of Maeve, etc. So why keep a Delores? I mean I guess she could want a challenge but I'd be... surprised.

Stubbs had bloody bandages on in the tub didn't he? So there wasn't like a soddering iron involved like when Maeve gets repaired. I'm still curious as to what he did for 23 years. 

I thought Teddy's dialogue kept hinting at his being awake. He said "Well, that's the thing about this world, You know? Some of the most unbelievable things turn out to be true. And the things that feel the most real are nothing but stories that we tell ourselves." and "Someone once told me that there's a path for everyone. and my path leads me back to you." That seems like he knows things/remembers their past, although I guess he could be... programmed to say those things?

As for Hale's motivations? I think we're lead to believe it's just revenge so far. They haven't seemed to reveal a greater plan than that yet. But... I assume they will since there's gonna be a season 5.

Edited July 19, 2022 by taragel

[Noneofyourbusiness]

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I could have sworn that in this episode there was a big ol' sonic device on an island outside NY and I was operating under the assumption that it's where the Statue of Liberty is for irony reasons.

Yes, we saw that at the end of the episode in Caleb's timeframe. As far as I know, that's the first time we've seen it outside of paintings. That's why Aghst said it wasn't visible in Christina's timeframe and I said I don't know that we've seen a shot it would have been visible in.

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I suppose that Maeve and Bernard can see humans for the individuals they are. I would say it is at least somewhat in keeping with who they originally were/a product of their experiences since S1. Maeve managed to pump  up a number of her attributes so that she is extremely perceptive and her feelings toward her daughter/enslavement mean that she thinks everyone is deserving of freedom. Bernard thought of himself as human for much of his existence and so it seems like he would be naturally sympathetic towards them. 

Stubbs, honestly, is somewhat of a cypher as a character and seemingly is pro-human just because Bernard is. It doesn't strike me as him having any personal concern one way or another.

Different strokes for different folks. I suppose the difference between Maeve's death isn't so much "hey she's a robot so can be rebuilt" but more "I don't buy that she's dead dead." And of course, it was right to not think that. If/when she has an actual true death scene, I think her robotic nature isn't going to make it any less sad.

And along the similar lines, I've cared more about the hosts than most humans since Day One. If the Good Hosts defeat the Bad Hosts, the future of humanity will be restored to some level of free will. I think that is a sufficient stake for me and at least some others to care.

Exactly.

1 hour ago, theartandsound said:

Wasn't the term "outlier" used to describe those Rehoboam couldn't control (like Serac's brother) and had them locked up at that prison complex?

Yes.

2 hours ago, Starchild said:

Possibly, but my TV-watching instincts are telling me that he is fully aware, and that Bernard sent him to Christina as part of his save-humanity plan.

Indeed. At least the first part and possibly both. Assuming it's not part of Halores's game.

Since bounty hunters aren't very common in the modern world, while it's possible it was part of his programming, it would seem odd. At very least that conversation would then be a red herring meant to make us think he was aware. But his subduing the man who meant Christina harm and then looking up at her apartment also gives that impression, and would also be a red herring.

1 hour ago, taragel said:

So why keep a Delores?

Just a note, her name is spelled Dolores. Even the captions have gotten it wrong at times, but the credits have been consistent. :)

1 hour ago, taragel said:

I thought Teddy's dialogue kept hinting at his being awake. He said "Well, that's the thing about this world, You know? Some of the most unbelievable things turn out to be true And the things that feel the most real are nothing but stories that we tell ourselves." and "Someone once told me that there's a path for everyone. and my path leads me back to you."

Exactly. Like the other hints, if he's not awake then it's a red herring, because it's very suggestive of him being awake.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Starchild]

Or perhaps the strategy is to try to wake her up gently. Rather than getting in her face and telling her she's not a human but a robot housing a sentient AI, he uses subtle clues, language, etc. to try to coax her into remembering it for herself.

I suppose it would be slightly less traumatizing that way, though it would take longer.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

1 minute ago, Starchild said:

Or perhaps the strategy is to try to wake her up gently. Rather than getting in her face and telling her she's not a human but a robot housing a sentient AI, he uses subtle clues, language, etc. to try to coax her into remembering it for herself.

I suppose it would be slightly less traumatizing that way, though it would take longer.

Seems like that so far. But who knows, maybe he drops a bomb next episode.

[Starchild]

If there's a season 5 it probably won't be that soon lol

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, taragel said:

True, but she (assuming she runs everything?) put in a lot of low-rent substitutes in Temperance instead of bringing back Hector and rebooting another host copy of Maeve, etc. So why keep a Delores? I mean I guess she could want a challenge but I'd be... surprised.

Stubbs had bloody bandages on in the tub didn't he? So there wasn't like a soddering iron involved like when Maeve gets repaired. I'm still curious as to what he did for 23 years. 

I thought Teddy's dialogue kept hinting at his being awake. He said "Well, that's the thing about this world, You know? Some of the most unbelievable things turn out to be true. And the things that feel the most real are nothing but stories that we tell ourselves." and "Someone once told me that there's a path for everyone. and my path leads me back to you." That seems like he knows things/remembers their past, although I guess he could be... programmed to say those things?

As for Hale's motivations? I think we're lead to believe it's just revenge so far. They haven't seemed to reveal a greater plan than that yet. But... I assume they will since there's gonna be a season 5.

The show has put forth the notion that just about all the original WW hosts either went to the Sublime like Teddy and the indigenous guy, or had a singular "pearl" that contains their essence and could not be duplicated after WW fell.  Dolores (thank whoever for the reminder) left WW with 5 copies of herself, one of which became Halores/Hale. OG Dolores died in getting rid of Rehoboam, the computer that was controlling everyone. I believe at least one or two other incarnations of Dolores were destroyed. Maybe someone with a better memory than me can say what happened to each of them. It's unclear if Christina is a reboot of one of the surviving OG Doloreses, a new version of Dolores created for some reason or what. 

In any event, Hector is under this setup dead dead killed by Halores last season. [Yes, it makes no sense that someone could not recreate Hector physically and mostly mentally. But that's what the show is going with.]

Maeve obviously was independent and could not be copied.

My rando speculation for why Halores might want to keep a Dolores around:

1. Nostalgia, if such a thing could exist for her. I bet a part of her misses the simpler existence pre-her awareness surfacing.

2. Revenge? Maybe she wants to trap one of the older versions of Dolores in a loop and watch her struggle with things.

3. It could indeed be the I can't win without you being a loser thing

I do like the theory that Teddy has come back from the Sublime at Bernard's behest and therefore is fully aware of who he and Christina are. But at the same time, there are pretty malevolent vibes coming from Maya (maybe I'm attributing that to the music) and it seems if Maya is malevolent and is setting Christina up with Teddy, chances are that's not going to end well for either of them and chances are Teddy is still asleep because obviously he would not voluntarily hurt Dolores.

1 hour ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Yes, we saw that at the end of the episode in Caleb's timeframe. As far as I know, that's the first time we've seen it outside of paintings. That's why Aghst said it wasn't visible in Christina's timeframe and I said I don't know that we've seen a shot it would have been visible in.

Just spitballing, but I am under the impression that Caleb.200-whatever and Christina are roughly in contemporary timeframes. The place Caleb.200-whatever ran out of is the company Christina works at. 

As far as I can discern, the timeframe goes something like the following:

Circa 2060ish: There is a war in the wake of the destruction of Rehoboam that ends with Caleb getting seriously wounded. Maeve watches over him for a while, then disappears. He settles down and starts a family with a family. About seven years pass and then....

Circa 2070: Maeve inadvertently puts Caleb 1.0 in danger by seeking out info about him on the Internet-equivalent. She manages to save him from a first attempt. A host tries to kidnap Caleb 1.0 daughter Frankie and his wife, but because Frankie's smarter/luckier than the average kid, they manage to dodge the kidnapping. Caleb 1.0 and Maeve go to Golden Age World and its secret with Hale's plan to enslave humans. (I place it at 2070ish from MIB's speech that GAW was opening about 150 years after WWI and the start of the Roaring Twenties it is meant to emulate). As seen in this episode, they attempt to take Hale hostage, but get stopped by a Host version of the MIB.  Maeve blows herself and William up not quite real good. Caleb 1.0 is killed by Hale's men.

Circa 2093ish: Bernard wakes up and starts to execute his plan to save humanity after spending time going through numerous possibilities in the Sublime. Caleb's daughter Frankie has grown up and is a resistance fighter going by "C" who is curious about her dad's fate. She appears to me to be in her late 20s, early 30s in contrast to Frankie who appeared to be under 10. Caleb.200ish experiences memories of Caleb 1.0 and then is told he is a copy and that it's been 23 years since Caleb 1.0 died. So my estimations on the age of Frankie/C would seemingly fit and suggests the Bernard stuff concurrent with what Hale is doing with Caleb.200ish. 

Now hypothetically, Christina's plotline could be happening concurrent to the 2093ish timeframe, before or after. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

56 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Dolores (thank whoever for the reminder)

You're welcome.

56 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

left WW with 5 copies of herself, one of which became Halores/Hale. OG Dolores died in getting rid of Rehoboam, the computer that was controlling everyone.

She left with five pearls, one of which was Bernard. The other four were copies of herself: Halores, Fake Martin (recovered by Serac and taken by Halores; might be intact or possibly destroyed in the car bomb that killed Hale's family), Fake Musashi (recovered by Clementine and Hanaryo for Serac and likely destroyed), and Fake Lawrence (uncounted for after speaking to Bernard and Stubbs).

56 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Now hypothetically, Christina's plotline could be happening concurrent to the 2093ish timeframe, before or after. 

That's right.

56 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I do like the theory that Teddy has come back from the Sublime at Bernard's behest and therefore is fully aware of who he and Christina are. But at the same time, there are pretty malevolent vibes coming from Maya (maybe I'm attributing that to the music) and it seems if Maya is malevolent and is setting Christina up with Teddy, chances are that's not going to end well for either of them and chances are Teddy is still asleep because obviously he would not voluntarily hurt Dolores.

Maya seems to be unconsciously programmed to be Christina's gal pal and push her towards social interaction and give her emotional support whenever necessary, almost like a clone's monitor from Orphan Black. But Teddy could have made contact with Maya as a potential date for Chrstina without Maya knowing who he is if he slipped into this scenario under Halores's radar.

56 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

In any event, Hector is under this setup dead dead killed by Halores last season. [Yes, it makes no sense that someone could not recreate Hector physically and mostly mentally. But that's what the show is going with.]

Dolores destroyed the Westworld hosts' backups in Season 2 via Angela's suicide bombing. Any surviving copy of Hector's pearl would have had to have been made after that while Serac had it in storage, and I don't think Serac bothered.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[thuganomics85]

Well, at least the timelines are starting to come together and things are starting to make sense in its own weird way.  Basically, Charlotte's going to "win' and create her own world where she controls everyone, and that's where Christina is in right now.  And the reason Caleb is so important is a) she's wondering why he inspired such loyalty from Dolores and Maeve and b) wants to know why he was able to resist her robo flies for as long as he did.  Curious to see if we'll actually see how she took over and what else was needed to pull it off.

Still not sure what's the deal with Christina though and why she's in Dolores' body (well, besides wanting to keep Evan Rachel Wood around!)  And now Teddy has entered into her world and he certainly seems to be showing signs of self-awareness that others haven't yet.  Since he was introduced to her by Maya/Christina's roommate, I'm wondering if she'll be involved in this as well.

Meanwhile, Bernard is either in the same timeline or close to it, and has acquired the weapon in order to take on Charlotte.  Which is... Maeve, who was thought to be destroyed after she sacrificed herself to take out the Man in Black.  Oh, and the woman he and Stubbs met last week was totally an adult Frankie!  At least they didn't waste too much time keeping that obvious twist hidden.

A lot to take in, but I think I got it!  Maybe....

[Haleth]

16 hours ago, RachelKM said:

I think the tower has exists in Christina's timeline.  It is possible that the hosts and the people under control living there have been programmed not to see the tower the way the hosts in WW would not see or notice anything that would be inconsistent with their narrative

When Christina and Maya were looking at the painting, Christina asked, "Does that look like anything to you?"  That reminded me so much of season 1 when a host would be tested by "does that look like anything to you" when there was something they were not supposed to see.  Maya avoided answering.

[Notwisconsin]

Again with the idiot plotting, they knew Charlotte was a host, and didn't just cut off her head and use Mauve's powers to pick out the information she needs, but no, they kept her intact so she could continue her evil plans.

[WaltersHair]

15 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Stubbs, honestly, is somewhat of a cypher as a character and seemingly is pro-human just because Bernard is. It doesn't strike me as him having any personal concern one way or another.

Stubbs makes the most sense. His cornerstone in S1 was that he was head of security and had to keep the hosts in line. If they got out of line and couldn't be brought back to rehab, ice them. Above all else, protect the humans.

My problem is that he seems to be the only left over host that isn't a super host: better brains, strength or cunning.

I may have to go back and re-watch season 3. I'm struggling with this season.

[BlackberryJam]

I’m so frustrated with this show being complicated for the sake of being complicated, that I’m expecting a GoT type ending, and by that I mean something like, Charlores keeping humans, and specifically Lee Sizemore, alive, because hosts are unable to write new stories.

[aghst]

Speaking of GoT, the show runners are working on a show based on the game Fallout for Amazon prime.

So maybe they're half checked out, like the GoT show runners were in their last season of GoT when they had other big deals already in hand.

Thing is though, WW has NEVER been as good as GoT so they don't have much of a fall off if they do end the show.

[tennisgurl]

I swear, this show is being confusing just for the sake of being confusion. We are finally caught up now at least, and the twists were handled pretty well, especially the Mad Max leader being an adult Frankie, which I caught about halfway through this episode. So who even exists in this new world? Robots who have no idea that they're robots like Dolorous/Christina? Or are most of them programmed humans? I am glad that at least we know what is going on now, so we can finally get going. When the show isn't trying too hard to be clever with its wacky timelines, I do think this season has some interesting ideas, and I like some of the concepts they seem to be going for. I actually am interested to see where they're going with this, which is a lot more than I could say last season for the most part.

I missed Teddy, I admit that I liked seeing them do their opening bit one more time. I would normally roll my eyes at the many call backs to season one, but I think that's the point, that everyone is stuck in a loop doing the same things over and over again.

I would think that Caleb's answer to why he could fight against being controlled was obvious. It didn't work on the robots, why would it work any better on humans?

Edited July 19, 2022 by tennisgurl

[Zaffy]

I bet this show will finally end with "it was all a dream" kind of finale.

[paigow]

Got a feeling that Bernard "dying" is transplanting himself into Maeve. Then she and Stubbs become the new Murtaugh & Riggs

[Mr. R0b0t]

This show needs a common sense coordinator to tell the creators "no" sometimes.

[Starchild]

I'll do it

[wallflower75]

I guess I'm still confused about why Halores kept trying to recreate Caleb, if the purpose was to figure out why she couldn't control him.  I may have missed something, but if human Caleb didn't know the answer before he was killed, what makes her think a host copy of him ever would?

[Noneofyourbusiness]

23 minutes ago, wallflower75 said:

I guess I'm still confused about why Halores kept trying to recreate Caleb, if the purpose was to figure out why she couldn't control him.  I may have missed something, but if human Caleb didn't know the answer before he was killed, what makes her think a host copy of him ever would?

She wants to determine what it is through trial and error, not ask him.

Although he seemingly did know; he said, "I have something you don't."

Edited July 20, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Quilt Fairy]

On 7/19/2022 at 9:45 AM, WaltersHair said:

Stubbs makes the most sense. His cornerstone in S1 was that he was head of security and had to keep the hosts in line. If they got out of line and couldn't be brought back to rehab, ice them. Above all else, protect the humans.

My problem is that he seems to be the only left over host that isn't a super host: better brains, strength or cunning.

He still has the snark, though. 

[arc]

On 7/18/2022 at 5:55 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

It could be the C is not for Caleb, and Caleb is not for C, but something else.

My theory: Franchesca -> Frankie and Franchesca -> Chesca -> 'C'.

On 7/18/2022 at 11:31 AM, RachelKM said:

It only really makes sense if he was getting constant real time updates on all necessary players - if not everything, for some reason every scenario he ran required Charlores succeeding in her plan and becoming complacent in her victory to take her down, and he narrowed down the start point years in advance and then ran scenarios from that point until it was time to wakeup... I think... maybe someone else has a better theory.

Which would make the Sublime at least as invasive as Rehoboam ever was. Nolan already did the prescient supercomputer in Person of Interest and this show's season 3; why is he going back to this well again???

On 7/18/2022 at 9:02 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

The show has put forth the notion that just about all the original WW hosts either went to the Sublime like Teddy and the indigenous guy, or had a singular "pearl" that contains their essence and could not be duplicated after WW fell. 

The events of season 2 ended up destroying the "Cradle", the automatic site-wide wireless backup system that provided for host resurrection with full knowledge of everything that happened up to their death. But given Serac/Rehoboam's own tech seen in S3 (which could plug a pearl into a fully convincing virtual reality), there probably exists tech to manually/physically copy a pearl's contents into a new one.

[Ottis]

On 7/19/2022 at 7:41 PM, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Although he seemingly did know; he said, "I have something you don't."

To me this was probably the most interesting thing in the episode. At first I thought he meant Maeve was somehow shielding him, and then I thought perhaps it is his love for his daughter (or capacity to love = strength). I hope the answer is intriguing and not cliched.

On 7/18/2022 at 9:29 AM, aghst said:

That's what I keep coming back to about the failure of this show to connect emotionally to viewers.  Fundamentaly, Westworld writers and show runners have failed to make people care enough about these robot characters and this show has repeatedly depicted every character turning out to  be a robot and able to come back.

The show made many of us care in season one, when it was about robots becoming aware of their groundhog day abuse by humans on vacation. Many people were rooting for robots. Now, though, robots in charge doesn't seem to be any better morally, so I don't know what the show wants us to think. Both humans and awakened robots suck?

On 7/17/2022 at 8:37 PM, mjc570 said:

I found this episode really boring.

I honestly don't know whether to agree or disagree with that. A lot happened - it was filled with action. But the action was in service of telling us that ... robots won, and are as bad as humans? If so, that does seem boring.