S01.E10: A Quality Of Mercy

[marinw]

6 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

I remember a psych major friend saying Spock was the ego, McCoy the id and Kirk the superego.

I've heard it expressed this way:

Kirk: Instinct

Spock: Logic

McCoy: Emotion

Come to think of it, Scotty was at least as empirical as Spock was logic-driven. Spock may not have been as close to Scotty as he was to Kirk, but Spock's respect for Scotty was evident.

Edited July 8, 2022 by marinw

[tennisgurl]

I know that this one is going to be controversial, people tend to really love or really hate episodes that involve TOS references, but I thought this was a really strong outing. I had my doubts about them basically doing a version of Balance of Terror, one of my favorite TOS episodes, but I like how they used it to tie into Pike's knowledge of his fate and how he is struggling to accept it, even though he knows its the right thing to do. Now he even has confirmation that he made the right call in the form of his time traveling future self, who tells him that if he doesn't sacrifice himself, things will get really bad in the future, so Pike gets closer to fully making peace with the inevitable. It really does cast this sad cloud over this otherwise more cheerful Trek show, knowing Pike's sad fate, but at least he can go forward knowing that his sacrifice will matter. I do think that modern Trek is stuck between trying really hard to modernize and wanting to keep going back to its roots, sometimes going too far in both directions, but I mostly think that this show has done a good job of feeling like its own thing not too dragged down by its connections to Trek lore while paying homage to the original show that it is always connected to. Making a show about captain Pike inevitably connects it to TOS, so it sometimes needs to lean into that. I was surprised to realize that this was a season finale, it feels like it went too fast. At least give us twelve! 

The recreation of Balance of Terror was a lot of fun, they really nailed those dramatic shadow shots and camera angles. I especially loved the super dramatic music sting as its revealed that Romulans look like Vulcans, complete with the cut to Spock raising an eyebrow. TOS sure did love their "dundunDUN" musical reveals. I always forget that, before that episode, no one even knew what Romulans looked like, we're all so used to Romulans now its easy to forget that them being an offshoot of the Vulcans was a big shock. If you haven't seen the original episode, please do, it really is one of TOS's best, it holds up as a very tense and exciting hour of television, and you will recognize a lot of shots and diallage from this episode. 

The references to other parts of Trek managed to be both shameless nostalgia bait and actually fit into the plot, in the best way possible. You have future Pike in his Wrath of Khan era uniform, the classic Trek music playing when we meet Captain Kirk, and of course oblique references to all of the things that Spock will go on to do in the future which will be pinnacle to the future of the entire universe. Reunifying the Vulcans and the Romulans, creating the Kelvin timeline, his cred will help Michael rebuild the Federation in the future, say what you will about Spock being all over this franchise, but he really has been one of the most important people in the universe and in Trek since almost day one, the link between every part of the franchise, from TOS to Discovery to the Kelvin movies. 

Was that a Scottish accent I heard from engineering? I do so wonder who that could be...

The guy playing Kirk is alright, its just hard to fill that Captains chair. Say what you will about William Shatner and his acting skills, he is never boring, and while I have liked other versions of Kirk (I think Chris Pine is a solid Kirk) its impossible to beat his mix of ham, charm, and intensity. Of course the second theres time travel Kirk shows up, you can just picture those long suffering time cops from DS9 shaking their heads in the background of all of this, adding more pages to his giant file. 

Looks like next season Pike will have to try and help Una, which will be tough considering we know that even by the late TND/DS9 era, people with augmentations are still banned from Starfleet and are discriminated against. I have really enjoyed this season, and while I have had some issues with the show, mostly in how it underused certain characters and some continuity issues that bugged me, this has been one of my favorite modern Trek shows so far. I like Picard (mostly the first season) and Discovery (mostly the last few seasons) but this is the rare Trek that has hit the ground running with a quality first season, coming out strong fully confident in its identity with a great sense of old fashioned fun and adventures. I like serialized drama just as much as the next fan, but there is something to be said about a show that is mostly about the excitement of finding cool new planets, meeting quirky aliens, and talking about various social issues and ethical questions via thinly veiled metaphor. 

[benteen]

Thought the season finale was great and a perfect conclusion for a standalone show with recurring elements. The alternate Balance of Terror was pretty awesome with the FX. That is how you do an homage. Best episode of a strong first season.

It established that Kirk is important to the future while Spock is the linchpin and why Spock would risk the death penalty for Pike.

I really liked that they included the Romulan Commander's storyline. Mark Lenard was great in that episode and the new actor did a wonderful job playing one of TOS's best "villains." I wondered if they were going to do some metacasting and have James Frain play the role. 

I also appreciated that TNG-style cliffhanger, building off an earlier storyline. Number One was underutilized this season but that should change next season.

I admit I wasn't feeling Paul Wesley's performance as Kirk early on but he won me over. I agree he doesn't have the presence of TOS Kirk. Shatner, whatever his flaws as an actor, did and does have presence. I liked how they established Kirk though and I think Wesley will be fine in the long run. I agree with the observations that he looked like Jim Carrey, Roddy McDowell and Jeffrey Hunter at different points in the episode.

As I recall, they did a Pike comic book and one storyline had one issue had Yeoman Colt travel into a future where Pike was still Captain of yhe Enterprise as of 2293 and the crew was a mix of TOS, The Cage and original characters from the comic. 

Timey whimy...how can Pike warning cadets change the future? I mean, it seems like all he had to do is order the ship to fix its engine problem. I suspect when Pike prevented his future he decided not to take the position of Fleet Captain and stayed on the Enterprise.

I'm eagerly looking forward to Season 2 and who they will bring in. I still consider Strange New Worlds an AU but that has not dined enjoyment one bit. It's a great show.

Edited July 8, 2022 by benteen

[cambridgeguy]

36 minutes ago, benteen said:

Timey whimy...how can Pike warning cadets change the future? I mean, it seems like all he had to do is order the ship to fix its engine problem. I suspect when Pike prevented his future he decided not to take the position of Fleet Captain and stayed on the Enterprise.

Which makes you wonder why Pike took the promotion/reassignment in the first place. I suppose that if you really want to go with timey-whimey explanation, the events of this episode have made Pike realize that he can't be captain of the Enterprise in seven years, so he has decided to step down after this current five year mission is done.  Plus he's going to recommend Kirk for the job because his approach works.

Now, as to why he can't just retire to his cabin and ride horses all day, who knows?  Perhaps Spock reconnecting with the Talosians matters in some future unseen adventure, and that would never happen if he doesn't have to get a crippled Pike to Talos IV.  Or one of the cadets who dies would otherwise do something really stupid, or one of the ones who lives views the accident as their "Picard gets stabbed in the heart" moment and is critical in some future moment, etc.

Edited July 8, 2022 by cambridgeguy

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

I remember a psych major friend saying Spock was the ego, McCoy the id and Kirk the superego.

Slight correction: Spock is the superego (the highly intellectual, rulebound force), McCoy is the id (the more unpredictable and emotional force), and Kirk is the ego (the balance between the two).

[TVbitch]

I really enjoyed this season, love this captain, the whole cast, and, damn, the stories moved along faster than General Hospital! I expected Pike's fate to be an ongoing theme over many seasons. I do agree young Kirk needed more ham, and cheese.  

I've never watched Discovery, is it worth watching Pike's episodes? 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

Now, as to why he can't just retire to his cabin and ride horses all day, who knows?  Perhaps Spock reconnecting with the Talosians matters in some future unseen adventure, and that would never happen if he doesn't have to get a crippled Pike to Talos IV.  Or one of the cadets who dies would otherwise do something really stupid, or one of the ones who lives views the accident as their "Picard gets stabbed in the heart" moment and is critical in some future moment, etc.

They explained that. Any change made would result in Spock dying. I don’t know if it’s a good explanation since they didn’t explore why. I guess it works sense Spock is vital to the universe and Pike helped to shape Spock. Or something involving fate. 

[statsgirl]

18 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

Per TOS:

KIRK [OC]: This is the Captain speaking. In our next action, we can risk neither miscalculation nor error

[Bridge]

KIRK: By any man aboard. Listen carefully. Science Officer.
SPOCK: Referring to the map on your screens, you will note beyond the moving position of our vessel, a line of Earth outpost stations. Constructed on asteroids, they monitor the Neutral Zone established by treaty after the Earth-Romulan conflict a century ago.

[Sickbay]

SPOCK [OC]: As you may recall from your histories, this conflict was fought,

[Engineering]

SPOCK [OC]: By our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels

[Bridge]

SPOCK: Which allowed no quarter, no captives. Nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication. Therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other. Earth believes the Romulans to be warlike, cruel, treacherous, and only the Romulans know what they think of Earth. The treaty, set by sub-space radio, established this Neutral Zone, entry into which by either side, would constitute an act of war. The treaty has been unbroken since that time. Captain.

That makes sense that they would believe the Romulans to be warlike even though the treaty was negotiated by radio. You can't negotiate a treaty and not get to know something about the other side.

Pike's mistake was assuming that the Romulans are like us. And not knowing that information on Romulans.

18 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

The cadets not being there on the day of the accident means that Pike didn't need to save them which means Pike was never exposed to the delta radiation and turned into Pike-in-a-Box which means Pike kept Enterprise which means Kirk was boxed out and ended up commanding Farragut which means decades-long war and fried Spock because Pike didn't have Kirk's killer instinct to destroy the Romulan ship before it could escape or call anyone.

So the war turned hot because it was Pike commanding the Enterprise, not Kirk. Interesting move on a show where Pike is the hero.

26 minutes ago, TVbitch said:

I've never watched Discovery, is it worth watching Pike's episodes? 

I'm the outlier here because I like Discovery. I liked Pike in the Discovery episodes more than I do here where he's too much like TOS Kirk, white man saves the day with American culturally-biased speech.

[paigow]

23 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Sure, because the only other thing required is a body that's been reborn via the Genesis device or the equivalent.  Piece of cake!

Since continuity / plausibility is no longer a priority... Pike finds and kills Stonn. Spock is transferred to an intact corpse.

[Frozendiva]

6 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

Oh, good point.

So how about this...

1. Pike had accepted his fate because he couldn't bring himself to let those cadets die.
2. Then he hit on the idea of sending them all letters telling them not to be there.
3. Since the cadets wouldn't be there, there's no longer any need for *him* to be there.
4. Best way to make sure he's not there is to not accept the promotion off Enterprise.

(Of course, that still has problems.  The plate was going to rupture anyways, so some (different) cadets would have been killed, so Pike should feel guilty about that, too.)

No guarantee that Pike turning left will change his fate. He could just have gone around in a giant circle til he is at the same crossroads where he and the kids are together again in some way and there will still be some sort of accident and he will still end up a Pike-Box.

[MissLucas]

3 hours ago, TVbitch said:

I really enjoyed this season, love this captain, the whole cast, and, damn, the stories moved along faster than General Hospital! I expected Pike's fate to be an ongoing theme over many seasons. I do agree young Kirk needed more ham, and cheese.  

I've never watched Discovery, is it worth watching Pike's episodes? 

That means the final episode of season 1 and almost all of season 2 of Discovery. You'll also get the backstory of Spock and his sister - whether you want to or not 🙄 I hated the main plot but Pike and number One were good and there's also Michelle Yeoh.

[QuantumMechanic]

2 hours ago, Frozendiva said:

No guarantee that Pike turning left will change his fate. He could just have gone around in a giant circle til he is at the same crossroads where he and the kids are together again in some way and there will still be some sort of accident and he will still end up a Pike-Box.

True, but we were trying to figure out why Pike was the captain of Enterprise in the revised timeline when even in the original timeline he had already left the ship and Kirk given command before the Pike-in-a-Box accident.  So merely not being present when the plate ruptured shouldn't have resulted in Kirk not having Enterprise.

[KatWay]

maybe I'm in the minority but I HATE that they make out Spock to be the chosen one, center of the fate of the universe, blah blah. It just reinforces my belief that these new ST iterations have suffered from fanboy writers making Spock their quasi self insert hero, the most special person of all, while he kind of loses what made them identify with him in the first place. Star Trek doesn't need a damn chosen one, it's not Star Wars. It always hinged on the crew of a ship, on everyone being important in their own storylines, changing the world.

they did it with Michael in Discovery and now it's Spock on SNW and it's just, that's not what Star Trek is about (to me). Even Sisko on DS9, who was as chosen and special as they come, never felt like his existence outweighed everyone else's to such a degree.

[millennium]

Meet the new Kirk, not the same as the old Kirk ...

Didn't ANYONE in casting or production foresee the inevitable Jim Carrey comparisons?   How can you take the guy seriously when your first instinct is to snicker and groan because he looks like Jim Carrey?    That aside, I thought it was a pallid portrayal.  No way is this pedestrian-looking, ultimately forgettable guy the swaggering ladykiller of the Alpha quadrant.

I had no real problem with revisiting Balance of Terror.   It made sense in the context of the show as a prequel.  And Anson Mount's charisma ensured a smooth ride.

My biggest complaint was the absence of the older Centurion character who played a significant role as an advisor to the Romulan captain in the original.   Why leave him out here?

The phaser effects were very good.    And I liked the fact that Spock would receive Pike's fate if he tried to change it -- that was a twist worthy of the Guardian of Forever.

[millennium]

37 minutes ago, KatWay said:

maybe I'm in the minority but I HATE that they make out Spock to be the chosen one, center of the fate of the universe, blah blah.

Spock would have been the last person in the universe to regard himself as such.   I think he would have rejected that characterization.   He devoted his entire life to service.   I'm not sure the writers understand that.

I thought they were going to kill off Kirk (oh hell, I was hoping they would kill off this Kirk), which would have seriously changed Spock's future in ways that would probably divert him from his destiny in the prime time line.

Edited July 9, 2022 by millennium

[paigow]

2 hours ago, millennium said:

I'm not sure the writers understand that.

Only one thing? 

[cambridgeguy]

4 hours ago, millennium said:

Spock would have been the last person in the universe to regard himself as such.   I think he would have rejected that characterization.   He devoted his entire life to service.   I'm not sure the writers understand that.

Just because he's not egotistical enough to proclaim himself one of the key linchpins of the Federation doesn't mean that he isn't.  That's like saying anyone proclaiming Superman as the main hero doesn't understand the character because Supes doesn't think of himself as extra special.  Spock rejecting that characterization (remember how he said he played just a minor role in the Khitomer accords?) is part of what makes him so great.  Well, that along with some incredible luck and being able to live for well over a century in mostly good health.

In any case, this very episode proved that Kirk is the extra special one this time.  He was the one who made the crucial decisions in this encounter, and while Spock agreed ultimately he was always going to follow the lead of the captain.  Spock is the eventual key to reuniting Vulcans and Romulans, but it'll take decades to set the stage and Kirk is the one who ensured it was ready for him.

[benteen]

7 hours ago, millennium said:

My biggest complaint was the absence of the older Centurion character who played a significant role as an advisor to the Romulan captain in the original.   Why leave him out here?

I was surprised by this as well. My guess is he was killed earlier in the battle like he was in Balance.

This Kirk hasn't had the benefit of meeting Spock and the rest of his crew. That explains the different personality. In the pilot, Mitchell describes Lt. Kirk as "a stack of books with legs" when Kirk taught at the Academy. This was Kirk's reputation among students. As a cadet, Picard seems like he was wilder than Kirk was. Kirk describes himself as a positively grim cadet in Shore Leave who was bullied by an upperclassman. The lady killer reputation was there from the beginning but so was a much more serious persona. It wasn't until later in movies that Kirk became more Shatner. Though I agree Shatner had it where Wesley doesn't. 

Spock is the linchpin. He was there from the very beginning in The Cage. The movies largely revolve around him or decisions that he may. He began reunification and was in two of the Kelvin movies. He's always been the key figure of Star Trek.

Edited July 9, 2022 by benteen

[Tyro49]

This Kirk reminds me of Roddy McDowall; a skinny looking guy who is not an action hero. I believe a recast is needed.

I have really loved this show, but next year they really need to have more " original" adventures. These episodes would have greater if they'd been spread out over a few seasons, not bunched together in the first.

Has anyone watched TOS Balance of Terror for yhe first time after watching this finale? If so, what did you think?

[benteen]

I appreciate that Star Trek utilizes the toybox they have but I agree on the need for more original adventures. I wasn't a fan of Captain Angel (too over-the-top) but I appreciate creating a original recurring villain for this show.

The Gorn I would have had be original villains and Chapel and M'Benga be original characters. Uhura works...a lot of Trek books and comics have suggested that some of the crew pre-dated Kirk. Vulcan's Glory, written by DC Fontana and the book that Una's alien background is taken from, tells the story of not only Spock's arrival on the Enterprise but also of Scotty's arrival as a junior engineer. He is someone I fully expect to see on SNW at some point.

[ouinason]

I have never thought of Paul Wesley looking like Jim Carey, ever.  lol  I don't know who the other guy is, so I can't comment on that.  PW is a good actor though and I don't mind him as Kirk.  I never really cared about or even liked Kirk all that much, so I'm not holding him to any kind of "bar" that might be there for others. 

I have been told that not liking Kirk means I'm not a real Trek fan, and I definitely disagree.  I liked all of the other TOS cast.  Trek is not about one person.  Not even Spock, even if he is the universe's special snowflake.

Edited July 9, 2022 by ouinason

[wmdekooning]

On 7/7/2022 at 12:12 PM, ouinason said:

I am annoyed by the general idea that Pike was ever realistically going to change his future, when the whole thing with seeing it in the first place was that there was no changing it.  That was part of the deal.  I don't get why Chris seems to be blanking on that part of it.

I would take it as a moment of weakness, or the first and only time Captain Pike had decided he would try.

He was ganna eff around and future him brought him a crystal from the Klingons so he could find out what would happen.

So. The episode for me was the best of the series if not one of the top Star Trek episodes of all time. If there were any continuity issues, I wasn’t aware of them, the episode managed to weave together several themes/pieces of Star Trek series  lore, Anson Mount does his typical great job as Captain Pike, and I felt Captain Kirk was ably represented.

Production values of the battles and related starship effects had me saying “Wow…” several times. Shout out to the camera work when the Romulan captain is revealed to finally focus on Mr. Spock with the aul’ school music cue…

[Starchild]

10 hours ago, millennium said:

My biggest complaint was the absence of the older Centurion character who played a significant role as an advisor to the Romulan captain in the original.   Why leave him out here?

...

I liked the fact that Spock would receive Pike's fate if he tried to change it

I missed that character too. I think maybe he was left out because his purpose in the original, to reinforce the Commander's war-weariness, which ultimately led to him ordering the self-destruct on his ship, was not relevant to the plot of this version, where he was executed by his superior.

Finally all those people who whined about it being out of character for Spock to risk the death penalty to give Pike a better life can shut it.

24 minutes ago, ouinason said:

I have been told that not liking Kirk means I'm not a real Trek fan, and I definitely disagree.  

Solidarity! Nobody who knows me would say I'm not a real Trek fan, and Kirk has never been anywhere near the top of my favourite character list.

[paigow]

14 hours ago, millennium said:

No way is this pedestrian-looking, ultimately forgettable guy the swaggering ladykiller of the Alpha quadrant.

Pike changed this Kirk... like TNG!Tapestry!Picard changed his future self into a timid science officer

[Joimiaroxeu]

FuturePike stuck with the bouffant, lol.

A good ol' fashioned standoff with Romulan Birds of Prey. Good times.

Oh wow, Pike looked right into the camera at the end. He's big mad. When does next season start?!?!

The Orville also did a "having to make a tough choice between alternate timelines" episode this week. Of course SNW did it in a much more satisfying way.

[Pallas]

On 7/8/2022 at 1:48 PM, starri said:

"Balance of Terror" is a truly gripping episode.  It's astonishingly well made, and you'll recognize some lines from this episode.

I do think they should have just gone for it and had James Frain play the Romulan commander.

Ha! I love the idea, even though I lament Frain as Sarek.

Mark Lenard means mensch. Neither Frain nor Matthew MacFadzean (here) convey Mark's presence, but MacFadzean did his voice, uncannily. And not only on the identical lines. The timbre, phrasing and intonations were clarion.

[kirinan]

1 hour ago, Pallas said:

Mark Lenard means mensch. Neither Frain nor Matthew MacFadzean (here) convey Mark's presence, but MacFadzean did his voice, uncannily. And not only on the identical lines. The timbre, phrasing and intonations were clarion.

Yes! I've been a fan of Mark Lenard for many, many years (loved him on Here Come the Brides, too), so I know his distinctive voice well. My husband and I looked at each other on several of the commander's lines with dropped jaws, because it really was uncanny (great choice of word, @Pallas)—like the actor was being inhabited from beyond by Mark Lenard himself at times. 

I really enjoyed this episode, and like many of you, I think it was the best of the season. I didn't dislike Paul Wesley as Kirk, but I love, love, love Chris Pine's portrayal, and have a longtime fondness for William Shatner (ham, cheese, Shatner Turbo 2000 [for Night Court fans] and all), so for me the charisma just wasn't there. Especially next to Anson Mount, who has enough charisma for two people. Maybe they could transplant some of Pike's magnetism to new Kirk?

[Affogato]

18 hours ago, KatWay said:

maybe I'm in the minority but I HATE that they make out Spock to be the chosen one, center of the fate of the universe, blah blah. It just reinforces my belief that these new ST iterations have suffered from fanboy writers making Spock their quasi self insert hero, the most special person of all, while he kind of loses what made them identify with him in the first place. Star Trek doesn't need a damn chosen one, it's not Star Wars. It always hinged on the crew of a ship, on everyone being important in their own storylines, changing the world.

they did it with Michael in Discovery and now it's Spock on SNW and it's just, that's not what Star Trek is about (to me). Even Sisko on DS9, who was as chosen and special as they come, never felt like his existence outweighed everyone else's to such a degree.

But he kinda is…..they aren’t rewriting, just pointing it out. 

Edited July 10, 2022 by Affogato

[rtms77]

I forget, does this series take place after or before Talos lV?  If it’s before , I now see why Spock went to all the trouble to help Pike out after his accident. Pike has let him know about and involved him. Which begs the question what makes Spock go from emotional to unemotional logic in the span of about six years.  
 

So was Spock first officer in the alternate timeline? It wasn’t clear, since Una wasn’t around. Poor Ortega still stuck as the chief helmsman? 
When the Romulan commander pulled aside his officer, it was framed through the two security guards. I honestly thought they were going to be Tal Shiare , sent to spy on the crew and enforce the Praetors commands. That whole scene was eerie.  

[wmdekooning]

20 hours ago, millennium said:

Meet the new Kirk, not the same as the old Kirk ...

Didn't ANYONE in casting or production foresee the inevitable Jim Carrey comparisons?   How can you take the guy seriously when your first instinct is to snicker and groan because he looks like Jim Carrey?    That aside, I thought it was a pallid portrayal.  No way is this pedestrian-looking, ultimately forgettable guy the swaggering ladykiller of the Alpha quadrant.

I’ve watched two long form Star Trek: TOS “tribute band” series on the YouTubes, so I’ve gotten used to at least two or three other actors playing Captain Kirk with varying degrees of Shatnering…

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, rtms77 said:

I forget, does this series take place after or before Talos lV?  If it’s before , I now see why Spock went to all the trouble to help Pike out after his accident. Pike has let him know about and involved him. Which begs the question what makes Spock go from emotional to unemotional logic in the span of about six years.  

After. The Cage is set before Pike and Spock first appear on Discovery. Then they return to Talos IV on Discovery. 

50 minutes ago, rtms77 said:

So was Spock first officer in the alternate timeline? It wasn’t clear, since Una wasn’t around.

He was. The first time Spock contacts him in the future he identifies himself as Number One. 

[KatWay]

5 hours ago, Affogato said:

But he kinda is…..they aren’t rewriting, just pointing it out. 

he isn't the chosen one anymore than a whole bunch of characters in ST have been for their respective shows and eras, but he's the only one writers keep obsessing over by inserting him in every single ST story out there. You could make as much of a case for Kirk, Picard, Sisko, hell the Dax symbiont being essential for the fate of the universe. But they're not getting this sort of treatment.

[ouinason]

To be fair... Pike is making a judgement of causality, but it might just be correlation.  We only have Admiral Pike's POV on the situation, and his biases.  Spock is very important to him personally, so his death happening in every change made may have artificially inflated significance for him.

[MissLucas]

One thing I'm still confused about (I finally caught on about Una) is how Admiral Pike knew that Spock was essential for bringing peace with the Romulans. I guess those Klingon monks/Timekeepers would know - but how? Are they aware of various timelines and deviations? Are they the Time Bureau (RIP Legends)? I can only deal with timeline preserving agencies if they make me laugh but otherwise I've developed a deep dislike for such plots. Of course DISCO is to blame for that one too. 

I wonder why the Watchers never cared for Spock. 'Nevermind about him - those Klingon time freaks have him already listed.'

Edited July 10, 2022 by MissLucas

[cambridgeguy]

4 hours ago, KatWay said:

he isn't the chosen one anymore than a whole bunch of characters in ST have been for their respective shows and eras, but he's the only one writers keep obsessing over by inserting him in every single ST story out there. You could make as much of a case for Kirk, Picard, Sisko, hell the Dax symbiont being essential for the fate of the universe. But they're not getting this sort of treatment.

The other characters didn't have the benefit of allowing the original actor to reprise the role almost a century after the original show and being able to do more than grumble about being senior citizens.

And in any case, Lower Decks showed that O'Brien is actually the most important figure in Starfleet history.  Spock's fighting for second.

[Affogato]

4 hours ago, KatWay said:

he isn't the chosen one anymore than a whole bunch of characters in ST have been for their respective shows and eras, but he's the only one writers keep obsessing over by inserting him in every single ST story out there. You could make as much of a case for Kirk, Picard, Sisko, hell the Dax symbiont being essential for the fate of the universe. But they're not getting this sort of treatment.

Yes. But that is how someone in a story takes a prominent place. Writers decide. It isn’t like these folks have a separate life. Spock is popular and can be used as a kind of connective tissue to knit shows together. 
 

Riker is used for some of that too. Enterprise, lower decks. And o’Brien. 
 

Edited July 10, 2022 by Affogato

[ouinason]

7 hours ago, MissLucas said:

One thing I'm still confused about (I finally caught on about Una) is how Admiral Pike knew that Spock was essential for bringing peace with the Romulans. I guess those Klingon monks/Timekeepers would know - but how? Are they aware of various timelines and deviations? Are they the Time Bureau (RIP Legends)? I can only deal with timeline preserving agencies if they make me laugh but otherwise I've developed a deep dislike for such plots. Of course DISCO is to blame for that one too. 

I wonder why the Watchers never cared for Spock. 'Nevermind about him - those Klingon time freaks have him already listed.'

i believe that this is an example from his own personal timeline, showing what could happen.  I think there were probably previous goes where this situation worked out appropriately and shit went wrong differently later.  And again, using someone very important to Pike to make a point about how things could be worse.  

[kay1864]

On 7/8/2022 at 12:35 AM, QuantumMechanic said:

Pike was never exposed to the delta radiation and turned into Pike-in-a-Box

(I didn’t see any of Discovery, but I’ve seen all of SNW)

Does this Pike end up immobilized in a 23rd-century wheelchair, or end up dead? Or has he seen what he thinks is his death, but it turns out he can be kept (barely) alive?

(oh and “Pike-in-a-Box” 😆😆😆)

[kay1864]

On 7/8/2022 at 3:31 AM, Llywela said:

I'm curious to see how they handle Una's fate, mind, because we know from DS9 that the ban on genetic alteration remains in place long after this.

It seems really odd to me that in SNW they’ve banned the augments themselves, rather than say, banning the practice of genetic engineering. Can anyone explain this somewhat twisted logic?

[ouinason]

Yeah, that's a good point.  What did Una do beyond being born to deserve being shut out in the first place?  That's deep systematic racism right there.  I also want to know how the hell anyone found out unless someone on the ship ratted her out.

[sugarbaker design]

10 hours ago, ouinason said:

That's deep systematic racism right there.

That's one of the themes of this particular story.  The way that Star Fleet Officer said "She's Illyrian." sounded like Una had a disease.  

[cambridgeguy]

12 hours ago, kay1864 said:

It seems really odd to me that in SNW they’ve banned the augments themselves, rather than say, banning the practice of genetic engineering. Can anyone explain this somewhat twisted logic?

They did ban genetic engineering - the Augments are the human example, but they expanded it to any species that did it. 

As for who spilled the beans, the only people who knew are Pike, La'an, M'Benga, Chapel, and any groggy person in sickbay who was within earshot when Una said it.  It seems unlikely any of the main cast said anything, but it's possible M'Benga's report about the antidote raised a few eyebrows. 

[jah1986]

I didn't think about M'Benga inadvertently revealing Una's heritage. But I have a feeling she may have been the one to inform Starfleet.

[QuantumMechanic]

On 7/11/2022 at 10:20 PM, kay1864 said:

It seems really odd to me that in SNW they’ve banned the augments themselves, rather than say, banning the practice of genetic engineering. Can anyone explain this somewhat twisted logic?

When your history has people who have been augmented taking over the Earth and causing a massive deadly war it’s not completely crazy to view augmented people as dangerous in addition to banning the tech.

On 7/11/2022 at 10:07 PM, kay1864 said:

Does this Pike end up immobilized in a 23rd-century wheelchair, or end up dead? Or has he seen what he thinks is his death, but it turns out he can be kept (barely) alive?

(oh and “Pike-in-a-Box” 😆😆😆)

Since the writers claim SNW is in the Prime universe we know from the TOS story “Menagerie” that Pike literally ends up paralyzed in a motorized box with only his head sticking out and he cannot blink or talk or do anything other than literally blink a light once for “yes” and twice for “no”. (I may have that backwards).

[QuantumMechanic]

On 7/11/2022 at 10:20 PM, kay1864 said:

It seems really odd to me that in SNW they’ve banned the augments themselves, rather than say, banning the practice of genetic engineering. Can anyone explain this somewhat twisted logic?

Also, I can see it analogously to why sports ban performance-enhancing drugs. If you ban the procedure but allow into Starfleet people who have had it done you are (in addition to letting in lawbreakers) putting people at a competitive disadvantage for promotions, etc. and forcing on them the choice of also breaking the law to keep up or accepting being at an unfair disadvantage.

[cambridgeguy]

2 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

Since the writers claim SNW is in the Prime universe we know from the TOS story “Menagerie” that Pike literally ends up paralyzed in a motorized box with only his head sticking out and he cannot blink or talk or do anything other than literally blink a light once for “yes” and twice for “no”. (I may have that backwards).

It also means that Pike (or Starfleet) must REALLY be against euthanasia.  I mean, we know he's supposed to live out the rest of his days on Talos IV, but as far as Pike knows he's going to be stuck in that wheelchair with no hope of recovery.  Sure, in the Trek universe there's always the slim chance that some miracle device or godlike being will help, but that's like hoping for winning the lottery. 

Another thing - I might be misremembering, but is this the first time we've been told he won't save all the cadets?  The overly self righteous would say he's sacrificing those other two lives without their consent, stealing their agency, etc. just because one person (i.e. Spock) is more important than the three of them put together, so too bad for their loved ones.

[marinw]

5 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

It also means that Pike (or Starfleet) must REALLY be against euthanasia.

My conclusion as well. I'm also thinking of the person on Discovery who ended up getting Robocopped. I understand this is a sensitive topic which is difficult to discuss in depth  without coming across as ableist. There is fanfic somewhere wherein a post-accident Pike goes back to work with a Betazoid intrerpretor reading his mind and saying his thoughts out loud.

Edited July 13, 2022 by marinw

[Affogato]

8 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

When your history has people who have been augmented taking over the Earth and causing a massive deadly war it’s not completely crazy to view augmented people as dangerous in addition to banning the tech.

Since the writers claim SNW is in the Prime universe we know from the TOS story “Menagerie” that Pike literally ends up paralyzed in a motorized box with only his head sticking out and he cannot blink or talk or do anything other than literally blink a light once for “yes” and twice for “no”. (I may have that backwards).

Even in the 60's what happened to him was hard to fathom. I cannot imagine what, in that time period, would lead to that outcome. The assumption is that he is fully capable of thinking. I mean it seems like he exists in a very narrow band right next to dead.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Affogato

[QuantumMechanic]

18 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Even in the 60's what happened to him was hard to fathom. I cannot imagine what, in that time period, would lead to that outcome. The assumption is that he is fully capable of thinking.

Not just an assumption.  It is taken as known fact in the story.  For example, the disabled Pike is one of the command officers at Spock's court-martial on board Enterprise. 

There's this:

PIPER: We're forced to consider every possibility, sir. We can be certain Captain Pike cannot have sent a message. In his condition he's under observation every minute of every day.
MENDEZ: And totally unable to move, Jim. His wheel chair is constructed to respond to his brain waves. Oh, he can turn it, move it forwards, or backwards slightly.
PIPER: With the flashing light, he can say yes or no.
MENDEZ: But that's it, Jim. That's as much as that poor devil can do. His mind is as active as yours and mine, but it's trapped inside a useless vegetating body. He's kept alive mechanically, a battery-driven heart.

And this:

KIRK: (watching Pike on monitor) He keeps blinking no. No to what?
MCCOY: They've tried questioning him. He's almost agitated himself into a coma.
KIRK: How long will he live?
MCCOY: As long as any of us. Blast medicine anyway. We've learned to tie into every human organ in the body except one. The brain. The brain is what life is all about. Now, that man can think any thought that we can, and love, hope, dream as much as we can, but he can't reach out, and no one can reach in.
KIRK: He keeps blinking no.
MCCOY: No to what? They could question him for days, weeks, before they stumble on the right thing.

Edited July 13, 2022 by QuantumMechanic

[Affogato]

8 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

Also, I can see it analogously to why sports ban performance-enhancing drugs. If you ban the procedure but allow into Starfleet people who have had it done you are (in addition to letting in lawbreakers) putting people at a competitive disadvantage for promotions, etc. and forcing on them the choice of also breaking the law to keep up or accepting being at an unfair disadvantage.

More like a trans athlete, perhaps, and less like a drug. 
 

still. Are they refusing to repair people with rare genetic diseases? Or common ones? That seems harsh, considering they could repair the defect so it wouldn’t be passed on. 
or are we just talking about people who are augmented to stronger than baseline or smarter than baseline? Or will live longer than baseline?

Edited July 13, 2022 by Affogato