S04.E09: Chapter Nine: The Piggyback

[Rankles]

Have to say, I lost some respect for Mike when he criticised having pineapple on a pizza. Poor form, Michael… 😑

Wild theory for S5: Vecna resurrects Eddie into Kas (or the Stranger Things equivalent anyway). Yeah, highly unlikely I know, but it’d be a shame to lose Joseph Quinn from the show.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Rankles

[peachmangosteen]

8 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

From an in-story perspective, again, Vecna was wounded and so despite the ominous sign of Upside-Down ash falling, he might not be able to do much more for a while. Or Our Heroes could manage to keep him in check somehow.

So, they're all just gonna continue going to school and the grocery store and dr's appointments for years with a bunch of huge cracks exposing the UD all over town? That's so dumb lol. But, it is very Hawkins, I guess.

28 minutes ago, krankydoodle said:

Maybe they're keeping it vague because in the vein of The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes the spinoff will be a prequel series following Henry/Vecna's early adventures in the Upside Down. Kidding, but after finishing this season I still have no idea what the spinoff could be about.

Wait, there's gonna be a spinoff?

[Redrum]

7 hours ago, HelloooKitty said:

Bc one minute he’s traipsing around picking mushrooms and then the “snow” starts and everyone goes to the hill top to look down at Hawkins and there’s no Argyle. He just disappeared. 

I mean, he's amusing but I am perfectly content if Argyle doesn't return for season five. 

[Redrum]

2 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

So, they're all just gonna continue going to school and the grocery store and dr's appointments for years with a bunch of huge cracks exposing the UD all over town? That's so dumb lol. But, it is very Hawkins, I guess.

So, ever hear of Centralia PA?

[peachmangosteen]

Other people mentioned it, but it doesn't change the fact that it's stupid to me lol. A time jump now just doesn't make sense to me on any level. They really should have done one between seasons 3 and 4 since that would have actually made sense story wise and real life wise since the kids are all so much older. 

[eleanorofaquitaine]

16 minutes ago, Redrum said:

So, ever hear of Centralia PA?

That's my theory as to what they'll do - total abandonment of Hawkins.

13 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Other people mentioned it, but it doesn't change that fact that it's stupid to me lol. A time jump now just doesn't make sense to me on any level. They really should have done one between seasons 3 and 4 since that would have actually made sense story wise and real life wise since the kids are all so much older. 

I think that the reality is real life intervened. It seems like they knew the story and had already done some filming in early 2020 based on when the first teaser trailer came out. Then the pandemic hit and they had to delay, and it still wasn't really cost-effective to throw out the story they planned.

But with even the youngest actors now in their late teens, they kind of have to do a time jump so it doesn't look really incongruous. 

[MamaGee]

8 hours ago, HelloooKitty said:

Ok, but did the forrest eat Argyle?

That would be a blessing, for sure!

[Silver-hyren]

13 hours ago, memememe76 said:

Interesting how literally just a few seconds of screen time had the “Do you want a tax receipt” girl on me. I would prefer her as Robin’s love interest over the bandmate. 

I 100% thought they introduced her to be Robin's new love interest and started shipping them as soon as they made eye contact. 

[MamaGee]

I don't know why but I am struggling with the rewriting of history in regards to same sex couples. In the early 1980s, very few people were out of the closet, especially teens in a relatively small town. I went to school with a handful of gay people who we knew were gay but they denied it with every breath because they were afraid of backlash. I know our society is becoming more open to LGBTQ individuals but back then, it wasn't. To think any of these kids were comfortable being out to anyone is so inconsistent with the time frame these kids were living in. 

[Cranberry]

2 minutes ago, MamaGee said:

To think any of these kids were comfortable being out to anyone is so inconsistent with the time frame these kids were living in. 

Only Robin is out, and only to Steve, and she told him while she was still half-drugged.

[Kel Varnsen]

1 minute ago, Cranberry said:

Only Robin is out, and only to Steve, and she told him while she was still half-drugged.

Also she came out to him after they had just escaped Russians and thought they would have or thought they might soon be killed. It seems like if there was any time to come out to someone that might be the time. I am not sure that is comparable to any actual 80's teen experience.

[Redrum]

8 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Also she came out to him after they had just escaped Russians and thought they would have or thought they might soon be killed. It seems like if there was any time to come out to someone that might be the time. I am not sure that is comparable to any actual 80's teen experience.

No, I was escaping from Russians ALL THE TIME as a young teen in the 1980s. It was how things happened. You Gen Zers and your "safe places" and your "triggers". For god's sake, I was escaping Russians and ducking nukes all while locking up the house in the morning and walking to the bus stop by myself without a parental escort!

42 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

That's my theory as to what they'll do - total abandonment of Hawkins.

I was thinking half empty with bunches of hold outs because people couldn't afford to leave or were refusing to leave a la Mr. Wheeler but yeah

[Lillith]

On 7/2/2022 at 8:29 AM, backhometome said:

Nancy and Jonathan need to be over. They dont work anymore.

I keep forgetting they're a real life couple because they have very little on screen chemistry. And overall it's the chemistry that makes this show. Almost all of the actors have great chemistry with one another. Except these two. Isn't it ironic, don't you think? 

I agree it was a tiny bit draggy,  I didn't find it as tedious as others did but it could have been streamlined a bit. 

That the mindflayer was One's creation was my takeaway too. 

[eleanorofaquitaine]

20 minutes ago, MamaGee said:

I don't know why but I am struggling with the rewriting of history in regards to same sex couples. In the early 1980s, very few people were out of the closet, especially teens in a relatively small town. I went to school with a handful of gay people who we knew were gay but they denied it with every breath because they were afraid of backlash. I know our society is becoming more open to LGBTQ individuals but back then, it wasn't. To think any of these kids were comfortable being out to anyone is so inconsistent with the time frame these kids were living in. 

I think that the only thing that could be considered rewriting history is how accepting Steve and apparently Jonathan are. But given how popular the show is among today's teenagers, I am okay with that bit of rewriting. Because I would rather LGBTQ+ teens who are thinking about coming out today see supportive scenes like these than ones that will scare them.

[Cranberry]

Also, this isn't some Freaks and Geeks style show about normal teens. These kids have been through near-death experiences together. Their lives could end at any moment. Jonathan actually thought Will was dead for a while back in season one. It makes sense to me that someone's sexuality is going to be the least of their concerns.

Also, not every single person in the 1980s was homophobic. Not every single gay person was closeted to absolutely everyone. I think it's realistic enough that Robin is out to only her best friend and Will is kind of out to only his brother.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

14 minutes ago, Cranberry said:

Also, this isn't some Freaks and Geeks style show about normal teens. These kids have been through near-death experiences together. Their lives could end at any moment. Jonathan actually thought Will was dead for a while back in season one. It makes sense to me that someone's sexuality is going to be the least of their concerns.

Also, not every single person in the 1980s was homophobic. Not every single gay person was closeted to absolutely everyone. I think it's realistic enough that Robin is out to only her best friend and Will is kind of out to only his brother.

Yes, I think that those things are realistic and I also think that with everything these characters have been through, both Steve and Jonathan are accepting. But in real life in the 1980s, I'd say it was a bit of a crapshoot as to the idea that two young guys would be as accepting. It's not impossible that they would have been! But it would be equally as likely, if not moreso, that they would be uncomfortable with it. 

[DearEvette]

55 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

I think that the only thing that could be considered rewriting history is how accepting Steve and apparently Jonathan are.

But I think that is even a stretch to consider it a re-write of history.  That presumes that no one in that age group at that time would have ever been accepting of a close friend or loved one coming out to them.  And that, imo, is not realistic.  People are complex and aren't as collective in thought or action as tv or nostalgic memory likes to portray.

I would also consider how different Robin and Will's circumstances are being shown from each other.  Robin came out to Steve under very extreme circumstances.  Also to some extent at no one is going to come out to someone privately unless they have considered 1000x over that it is safe to do so. 

Will hasn't come out to anyone, even to himself it feels like.  But we saw how virulent Will's dad was and always calling Will names.  So even if Will does know he is gay he may still be petrified to tell even his closes friends because his own dad has already rejected him and called him names for it.  But Jonathan has always been shown as extremely protective of Will.  They have a close brotherly bond.  Also Jonathan is at his core a very sensitive person.  A person like that would be accepting especially of his beloved younger brother. 

[MysteryMavin]

As I was watching the finale, the thought came to me that the main character who will die in Season Five will be Eleven.

I just see her sacrificing herself to finally bring down Vecna (who she sort of created), protect her friends, bring Max back from wherever she is, and save the world.  

Eleven is the one character who is truly different and "outside" of the normal world (as was Henry/One/Vecna) and I see them as the final conflict endgame, where both must die to return "reality" to the real world. Eleven has tried to destroy Vecna (in various forms) several times, and only succeeded in slowing him down or locking him away for a while, so will it take her sacrificing her life to totally eliminate him as a threat?

I don't really want this to happen, but I would not be surprised if it does. 

[libgirl2]

2 hours ago, Rankles said:

Have to say, I lost some respect for Mike when he criticised having pineapple on a pizza. Poor form, Michael… 😑

Wild theory for S5: Vecna resurrects Eddie into Kas (or the Stranger Things equivalent anyway). Yeah, highly unlikely I know, but it’d be a shame to lose Joseph Quinn from the show.

I like pineapple on pizza but I know a lot of people think it is blasphemous! 

[LittleIggy]

When Hopper chopped off the Demogorgon’s arm, did anyone else say “‘Tis but a scratch”? 😆

[libgirl2]

1 hour ago, MamaGee said:

I don't know why but I am struggling with the rewriting of history in regards to same sex couples. In the early 1980s, very few people were out of the closet, especially teens in a relatively small town. I went to school with a handful of gay people who we knew were gay but they denied it with every breath because they were afraid of backlash. I know our society is becoming more open to LGBTQ individuals but back then, it wasn't. To think any of these kids were comfortable being out to anyone is so inconsistent with the time frame these kids were living in. 

There were several people I was friends with in high school who eventually came out, but NEVER in school. Looking back, it was quite obvious. Only a couple were surprising. One was a guy I had a massive crush on. I never had an idea. WE went on a double date and he didn't make a move, but I was not exactly the most attractive person out there and figured we were just friends. The second was a guy who ended up marrying my best friend, who was drop dead gorgeous. He was crazy about her. Only years later, after they got divorced and had two kids, did she tell me he came out. She was surprised and asked me if I ever suspected it. Never. He even hit on my cousin when she was visiting from overseas, which caused a lot of grief at the time. 

[Redrum]

26 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

would also consider how different Robin and Will's circumstances are being shown from each other.  Robin came out to Steve under very extreme circumstances.  Also to some extent at no one is going to come out to someone privately unless they have considered 1000x over that it is safe to do so. 

I'd also argue Robin coming out to Steve is not the same as Will coming out to Steve. This is just anecdotal but... guys generally seem a lot cooler and more ok with the idea of a gay woman.... while finding out a male friend is gay is a much bigger deal.

I also find Will's obsession/crush on Mike a little off putting as it goes on and on over years. Like, not to put too big a stamp on it, homophobic or totally accepting, Mike seems REALLY STRAIGHT. His love/obsession with Eleven also has some creep factor to it in my opinion, but Mike is being played as a boy very much in love with a girl. So what is the endgame for Will/Mike? There is none. Mike is straight, and finding out that Will isn't just his best friend but someone who wants to be his lover... especially in a time where being gay was not so cool, could really blow up. I mean, the one thing that I don't expect to happen is Mike suddenly realizing its never been El, its always been Will for him. This show isn't going to end with Will and Mike dating.

14 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

There were several people I was friends with in high school who eventually came out, but NEVER in school.

I was aware of a few but yes there were some surprises. My date to junior prom - nice guy, seemed into me - was my brother's lover/boyfriend in the mid 2000s.

23 minutes ago, MysteryMavin said:

As I was watching the finale, the thought came to me that the main character who will die in Season Five will be Eleven.

I don't think its 100% - I actually have Will the pain magnet as the sacrifice - the "opener of the way" from season one "closing the gate" to save his friends and family, but Eleven fits as well. With the level of government involvement around her, I can't see her ever able to live a normal life. 

[Athena]

14 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

One thing I want to give the show and the Duffer Brothers credit for is really showing the power of female friendship and just generally putting the women and girls front and center in the action. It was so refreshing and unusual to see two teenage girls - Max and El - take on the Big Bad and it didn't feel patronizing. Plus in both Dear Billy and The Piggyback, we got to see how much El and Max's friendship mattered to them and was a strength they could draw on.

And then in the scene in the attic, while Steve throws the first molotov cocktail, we see Robin throw the next one and of course, Nancy takes on the responsibility of shooting him. I appreciate the fact that the show has made room for the girls and women in the cast (even while recognizing that the show isn't perfect).

I really like the Max/El friendship and we missed it until this last ep. The show started out and continues to emphasize the friendship between the younger boys, so I appreciate it when they focus on the girls. Both the girls have been abused and do not have a lot of strong female relationships in their lives so it's even more important for them to have each other. I know El technically had Joyce for 8 months but we never saw any of it in this season. They even had a small moment of Nancy with Max in the previous ep which I wish we could see more of as Max seemed to admire Nancy more than Jonathan has been doing lately. The show could do even better on the female friendships and putting some of the girls at the front, but I do appreciate it.

I  really hope that keeping Max alive means there is a plan for her to come back and help the gang in some way. So she doesn't end up as another damsel or victim in the UD but finds a way to survive and even defeat Vecna/One too. That's the only way I can see them justifying the cheat of not killing her. I think Sadie Sink is one of the better actors on this show and she eclipsed Millie Bobbie Brown this season as well. Her story line of trauma and guilt about Billy's death would be hard to pull off an actor of any age. Agree also that her relationship with Lucas has more chemistry than the some of the other couples on this show.

[benteen]

3 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

Other people mentioned it, but it doesn't change that fact that it's stupid to me lol. A time jump now just doesn't make sense to me on any level. They really should have done one between seasons 3 and 4 since that would have actually made sense story wise and real life wise since the kids are all so much older. 

Before these last two episodes, I suspected we would get a time jump to the summer of 89 when the kids would be graduating from high school. It would have helped with the actors being older and it would have still been in the 80s. End of decade setting would be perfect too. I don't see that happening now given that that "hellgate" in the middle of Hawkins isn't just going to be quiet for three years.

[Kel Varnsen]

23 minutes ago, Athena said:

I  really hope that keeping Max alive means there is a plan for her to come back and help the gang in some way

I really hope that when/if Max comes back she is able to recover from her injuries. Not that I am against have someone with a disability on TV, but needing a wheel chair or some kind of long term after-care while you live in a trailer with a checked out alcoholic single mom sounds like even more torture and pain than Max has already experienced.

25 minutes ago, Athena said:

I know El technically had Joyce for 8 months but we never saw any of it in this season

The fact that we didn't get any one on one Joyce/El scenes, and hardly any where they were in the room together is probably one of the big things missing for me this season. I watched The Bathtub from S1 yesterday and the scene with those two in the locker room as El gets ready to find Will is one of my favourite scenes in the entire show. That and then the follow up of Joyce holding El in the pool after she finds Will are easily my favourite Winona scenes.

[Quark]

Phenomenal.

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The Gorgons at least existed in the upside down before 001 showed up. It seems that he was able to use his powers to create the hive mind though.

I agree.  But my assumption is that by the time of S1, Vecna was connected to what every demo-creature was doing. He might not have been puppetmastering everything, but he was at least aware of it. He took credit for killing Barb.

Which I guess raises the question of why all the previous deaths of people at the hands of demo-creatures don't count toward the four chimes, or why four or any number of questions we probably won't get the answers to. 

3 hours ago, krankydoodle said:

Maybe they're keeping it vague because in the vein of The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes the spinoff will be a prequel series following Henry/Vecna's early adventures in the Upside Down. Kidding, but after finishing this season I still have no idea what the spinoff could be about.

https://www.bustle.com/entertainment/stranger-things-spin-off-cast-plot-trailer-release-date

So according to the link above, the Duffer Bros. are indeed working on a potential spin-off and the Mike actor spitballed a concept that coincidentally happened to be what they were already thinking.

Off the top of my head, some possibilities (in no particular order):

1. Young Henry in the 50s and 60s. Basically, what if Dexter had psychic powers?

2. The adventures of Angela and her band of misfits through the 1980s. It seemed like they were hinting at a spin-off by introducing the character but I dunno. That sidequest was probably one of the worst parts of that season, if not the series. (I think the Russia stuff is probably the chief contender) But maybe it would be better given its own space to breathe. Seeing life in 1980s Chicago versus Hawkins might be cool for me in particular because I live here.

3. Life in the Hawkins Lab from 1970-1983. There are at least 7 other children besides 1, 8 and 11 whose stories could be told, plus filling in more backstory on Bremer, Owens, the army people, etc.

4. The Russian/American Cold War over the Upside Down. We've never really known much about what how the Russians got into the Upside Down experimentation, Demogorgon collecting, secret-base building, etc.

That doesn't include any possible sequels. 

3 hours ago, Rankles said:

Have to say, I lost some respect for Mike when he criticised having pineapple on a pizza. Poor form, Michael… 😑

Wild theory for S5: Vecna resurrects Eddie into Kas (or the Stranger Things equivalent anyway). Yeah, highly unlikely I know, but it’d be a shame to lose Joseph Quinn from the show.

Even now, many people would turn their nose up at having pineapple on a pizza. But I feel fairly confident in the 1980s, the concept would strike the average Midwesterner as bizarre.

I hope your theory is correct about Eddie being brought into Vecna's army, particularly if he then betrays Vecna.

3 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

So, they're all just gonna continue going to school and the grocery store and dr's appointments for years with a bunch of huge cracks exposing the UD all over town? That's so dumb lol. But, it is very Hawkins, I guess.

Wait, there's gonna be a spinoff?

No one says that they are going to try to live their lives as normal during a time jump. If there is one, the show may not even spend time addressing what happened in the jump. Or the Duffer Bros. can go something like, "We all abandoned Hawkins for years because it didn't seem safe. Things seemed quiet there, but now X has happened and we are all going to have to go back."

Per the link above, the Duffer Bros have a concept for a spinoff and are working on developing it, although nothing has been green-lit by Netflix. 

2 hours ago, MamaGee said:

I don't know why but I am struggling with the rewriting of history in regards to same sex couples. In the early 1980s, very few people were out of the closet, especially teens in a relatively small town. I went to school with a handful of gay people who we knew were gay but they denied it with every breath because they were afraid of backlash. I know our society is becoming more open to LGBTQ individuals but back then, it wasn't. To think any of these kids were comfortable being out to anyone is so inconsistent with the time frame these kids were living in. 

It is worth reiterating that of the two LGBTQ characters, Robin is out to a single person (and that is due to a combination of shared danger, drugs, a close bond, and him asking her out) and Will has made a quasi-confession of his feelings for Mike that Jonathan has picked up on. But the latter is still ambiguous enough that calling it "out of the closet" is a stretch. And yes, during the 1980s (and presumably throughout time), there would be times when kids might risk being out to one or two friends. The overwhelming minority of the time, but still. 

43 minutes ago, MysteryMavin said:

As I was watching the finale, the thought came to me that the main character who will die in Season Five will be Eleven.

I just see her sacrificing herself to finally bring down Vecna (who she sort of created), protect her friends, bring Max back from wherever she is, and save the world.  

Eleven is the one character who is truly different and "outside" of the normal world (as was Henry/One/Vecna) and I see them as the final conflict endgame, where both must die to return "reality" to the real world. Eleven has tried to destroy Vecna (in various forms) several times, and only succeeded in slowing him down or locking him away for a while, so will it take her sacrificing her life to totally eliminate him as a threat?

I don't really want this to happen, but I would not be surprised if it does. 

I forecast that there will be some level of happily ever after at the ending, which requires the original four and 11 to all survive, and 11 and Mike to be a One True Pairing. (Sorry, Will).

I think in keeping with Chosen One/Christ figure tropes, 11 may die and get resurrected. Or she may lose her powers for good, leading to her just being normal.

I would probably pay some amount of money for the Duffer Bros to swerve and have Mike and Will end up as a couple, though. Not because I particularly like them as a couple (Will you deserve better), but rather because it would be such a departure from genre standard.

[MamaGee]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

But I think that is even a stretch to consider it a re-write of history.  That presumes that no one in that age group at that time would have ever been accepting of a close friend or loved one coming out to them.  And that, imo, is not realistic.  People are complex and aren't as collective in thought or action as tv or nostalgic memory likes to portray.

Completely disagree. In the early '80s, we had only had one gay character on TV and no one discussed homosexuality in school. Ever. Only to use the f word or d word as a derogatory term. To me, people were totally close minded as to even thinking about it. We just didn't. And it certainly wasn't talked about. The two very dear friends I had argued vehemently that they weren't until years later. Because it just wasn't done. Even with your closest friends and family. As crazy as this sounds, it still happens.

But as the point has been made, this show isn't about realism. So there's that. I would also say that I think it's not good to show that it was easier to come out then. I think people today need to have an appreciation for how hard the world was back then in order to really value how much better things have gotten. 

[Clanstarling]

On 7/1/2022 at 12:40 PM, moonb said:

Was Lucas reading "The Talisman" to Max in the hospital, where Jack Sawyer flips back and forth between the real world and the Territories? How appropriate. 

Indeed. Also a nod to IT, one of the most famous books about children getting together to destroy a dangerous creature - the floating when in Vecna's grasp (we all float...) Not to mention, Finn appeared in the movie version.

On 7/1/2022 at 3:05 PM, toodywoody said:

Since we really didn't seen Brenner die, I'm expecting him to show up again.

I thought it was pretty clear that his eyes glazed over and he died. But then, maybe I didn't look closely enough.

Dustin with Mr. Munson was heartbreaking. Loved the El/Hopper reunion. I'm okay with the split stories, though Russia did indeed take more time than necessary. But still, I enjoyed every minute of it - even the draggy ones.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

11 minutes ago, MamaGee said:

Completely disagree. In the early '80s, we had only had one gay character on TV and no one discussed homosexuality in school. Ever. Only to use the f word or d word as a derogatory term. To me, people were totally close minded as to even thinking about it. We just didn't. And it certainly wasn't talked about. The two very dear friends I had argued vehemently that they weren't until years later. Because it just wasn't done. Even with your closest friends and family. As crazy as this sounds, it still happens.

But as the point has been made, this show isn't about realism. So there's that. I would also say that I think it's not good to show that it was easier to come out then. I think people today need to have an appreciation for how hard the world was back then in order to really value how much better things have gotten. 

I really dispute your contention that the show is saying it was "easier to come out then." We've had exactly one character directly come out to exactly one other character. That same character even said that if she came out more widely, she'd be the town pariah. She hasn't even come out to her own crush, who we are led to believe is probably also struggling with her own orientation. 

In the 1980s, my parents were friendly enough with a lesbian couple that we used to go over to their house. My dad was a teacher and he worked with one of the women. Now I didn't realize until I was older that they were a couple but I am 100% sure my parents knew what was up. This wasn't even in a major city but a smallish town in New England. 

So the notion that no LGBTQ+ person was ever out to close friends or family doesn't correspond to my experience. I am not denying the rampant homophobia of the 1980s, which I know to be real. But the idea that no LGBTQ+ person was ever out to a few people in their lives seems very unlikely to me. And I am not getting a sense from the show that they thought it was easy to come out during this time period. 

[moonb]

I think plausible deniability is the key re: coming out issues in the 1980s or before. A cousin of mine from my mother's generation lived with her "friend" of 40 years - and even in her obituary was still described as a friend and caregiver.....but, she was born in 1939. One of my old bosses referred to his significant other of 25 years as a "friend of his" and to himself as a bachelor,  which was certainly legally true at least, circa 1999-2000. When coworkers asked or hinted, he maintained he didn't know what they were talking about....though eventually he dropped that, but it took until the 2010s to do it. He is in his 50s. So....a lot of it was maybe a case of politely Not Asking Questions, if your family works that way. If nobody says gay, then gay can be compartmentalized into a limited number of people. On the other hand,  I graduated HS in the mid 90s and several of my peers didn't come out until their 20s or 30s.

57 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

forecast that there will be some level of happily ever after at the ending, which requires the original four and 11 to all survive, and 11 and Mike to be a One True Pairing. (Sorry, Will

Since I'm a crusty old middle aged person, unrequited romantic feelings just aren't the worst thing to me. Yes, they're painful and extra awkward in Will's case, but almost everyone goes through that experience at some point.  I'd be a little more concerned with Mike and El being in love from their early teens to their 30s. But...the show is part sci fi fairy tale, so One True Love is a part of that.

39 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Also a nod to IT, one of the most famous books about children getting together to destroy a dangerous creature - the floating when in Vecna's grasp (we all float...) Not to mention, Finn appeared in the movie version.

 Yes! I did like the blood filled balloons popping at the Snow Ball, nice shout out.

[Chicago Redshirt]

58 minutes ago, MamaGee said:

Completely disagree. In the early '80s, we had only had one gay character on TV and no one discussed homosexuality in school. Ever. Only to use the f word or d word as a derogatory term. To me, people were totally close minded as to even thinking about it. We just didn't. And it certainly wasn't talked about. The two very dear friends I had argued vehemently that they weren't until years later. Because it just wasn't done. Even with your closest friends and family. As crazy as this sounds, it still happens.

But as the point has been made, this show isn't about realism. So there's that. I would also say that I think it's not good to show that it was easier to come out then. I think people today need to have an appreciation for how hard the world was back then in order to really value how much better things have gotten. 

One can't extrapolate from the generally homophobic attitudes of the day that specific people would always had those attitudes or act with those attitudes in mind. Surely you must accept of the thousands upon thousands of American gay teens who existed in the 80s, at least some risked telling a friend about being gay, some just experimented with being gay while being in denial about the label, etc.

Nor can one necessarily extrapolate from one's personal experiences to say that is how any given person or couple of people would certainly act.

None of us can really know how many of our friends were secretly gay and if they chose to confide in others, almost by definition. Even assuming it is true as a rule that 99 percent of people who were gay remained in the closet, there is always the possibility of someone being part of that 1 percent exception.

If Robin were organizing gay pride parades or planning to take a girl as her date to the homecoming dance, yes, that would be unusual to the point of being out of place for the 80s. But would you bet all your worldly possessions that there never was a teen who did some equivalent in the 1980s? I sure wouldn't.

And again, the show isn't suggesting it was easier for Robin to come out to Steve than it is for people to come out now. (If by easier, you mean getting shot up with truth-serum drugs and having your life threatened). 

[DearEvette]

2 hours ago, MamaGee said:

Completely disagree. In the early '80s, we had only had one gay character on TV and no one discussed homosexuality in school. Ever. Only to use the f word or d word as a derogatory term. To me, people were totally close minded as to even thinking about it. We just didn't. And it certainly wasn't talked about. The two very dear friends I had argued vehemently that they weren't until years later. Because it just wasn't done. Even with your closest friends and family. As crazy as this sounds, it still happens.

But there is a difference between 'As seen on tv' and real life.

TV has never been 100% reflexive of real life.  The history of tv and movies is to present an idealized and homogenized view of aspirational American life.  That is why the Hays codes came into existence, because before the Hays codes  there had been  explicit references to homosexuality, drag lifestyles etc.

And this is especially true of marginalized populations where historically tv has been abysmal with portraying POC and LGBTQ+ persons and how they existed with their own subculture.  There has either been outright erasure or coded portrayals that are now codified in tropes. 

But IRL, as I mentioned above, people are complex.  There is ample historical proof of a thriving, varied  LGBTQ+ subculture dating back at least to 1920s if not earlier, that mainstream culture was not only aware of but also participated in. And you can't say with 100% certitude that an 80s teen never came out privately to a friend or family member or that friends or family members didn't know someone was gay and would have been supportive if that person had come out.  You'd have to the know inner life and family dynamics of every single living person. 

In my own teen group we were a bunch of Jonathans.  We knew we had a person in our friend group who was most likely gay but he never said and we never said.  But we knew.  And yet we still loved and stayed friends with him.

So I still think the show has been pretty good in how it is portraying Robin and Will.  We know a lot of what is going on because we are the audience and have omnipotent gaze, but in-universe amongst the characters, that isn't true. Nobody but Steve knows about Robin.  Robin is so afraid to even say anything to her crush until she is 100% certain her crush also likes girls because she knows the stakes if she makes a mistake.  Again, I find that realistic and has probably played out in many different ways IRL.

[overtherainbow]

Are the residents of Hawkins really that daft? Massive cracks appear throughout the town with lava, whole buildings are destroyed, strange smoke appears and they say it's a 7.5 earthquake? I guess they're just going off the "weird things happen in Hawkins" and no one questions that this?

I knew Eddie would likely be scarified but that was brutal. RIP Eddie, you became my favorite character next to Steve.

[Brn2bwild]

4 hours ago, Athena said:

I really like the Max/El friendship and we missed it until this last ep. The show started out and continues to emphasize the friendship between the younger boys, so I appreciate it when they focus on the girls. Both the girls have been abused and do not have a lot of strong female relationships in their lives so it's even more important for them to have each other. I know El technically had Joyce for 8 months but we never saw any of it in this season. They even had a small moment of Nancy with Max in the previous ep which I wish we could see more of as Max seemed to admire Nancy more than Jonathan has been doing lately. The show could do even better on the female friendships and putting some of the girls at the front, but I do appreciate it.

I'm disappointed that when Max saw Eleven, she didn't have more of a reaction along the lines of: "El, thank God you're here.  Please be careful."  Instead her reaction seemed almost cold, though I understand that she might have been afraid to trust what she saw/felt at that point.  Though once she understood that El was real, I wish she had tried to help El fight Vecna rather than stand there and wait for Vecna to capture her again.

[peachmangosteen]

7 minutes ago, overtherainbow said:

Are the residents of Hawkins really that daft?

Yes. They're just like, 'That's so Hawkins' lol.

[Texasmom1970]

Keep waiting to get sick of “Running up that hill.” Nope love it as much as I did when I was in high school when it originally came out.

Moment of shallowness- David Harbour, yum!

[foxfreakinmulder]

So glad the show is finally back but delaying the last 2 episodes was dumb. And making one 2.5 hours was too long, that's longer than most movies, instead of 2 episodes make it 3 or 4 especially if you're going to split them up.

They better not make us wait 3 years for the next season. We waited long enough for this one just give it to us at the end of this year or the beginning of next year.

I don't think a time jump is going to work with what's going on in Hawkins. I just don't see them leaving knowing the gate is opened. Or is it, is it just a crack and not fully opened since Vecna wasn't able to swallow Max's soul?

Watching reviews on youtube they were saying Vecna's body was burned so he's going to need a new "host/body" maybe Will or Eddie?

Vecna was a great villain and this season was probably the creepiest since season 1.

What was the "christmas lights" this season, the light bright?

Happy the original crew is still intact especially Steve and Dustin.

[Racj82]

On 7/1/2022 at 12:24 PM, steelyis said:

I would have been furious if they had! Only reason I'm not now is because a coma means there's still hope.

No disrespect but I hate this. I'm speaking in general. More and more, writers have to write with backlash in mind instead of just telling the stories they want to tell. If they killed off Max or Steve, both of which made sense storyline wise, there would have been a fan revolt. If they killed off Robin they are accused of burying their gays instead of just killing off a character, If Lucas died, it's killing off the lone black character in major core group. I just want people to tell stories. I may not agree with all their decisions but I wouldn't quit a show, i wouldn't be mad or start petitions or any of that. It's nuts that more of our beloved group haven't died. I don't want any of them to die. But, I wouldn't let that dictate how I write my story. No ones feelings are wrong but I feel more and more a growing feeling of constant copping out with deaths in major media these days. While I should jf had genuine fear for Max I just kept knowing in my head they weren't going to actually kill a female lead on this show. The backlash would be too major. I hate that I know this.

8 hours ago, Rankles said:

Wild theory for S5: Vecna resurrects Eddie into Kas (or the Stranger Things equivalent anyway). Yeah, highly unlikely I know, but it’d be a shame to lose Joseph Quinn from the show.

A shame but let him die. He died. We are losing important stakes in movies and tv more and more. They are incredibly dangerous situations and would be a shame to lose anyone in the cast. But, people need to go. This isn't a PG family flick.

[Cranberry]

I don't watch shows like this for realism. I watch shows like this as a fun escape from real life. I don't care if it's more realistic for these kids to die. I don't want to see dead kids when I'm watching my fun summer TV shows. There's enough of that on the news.

I also don't get the impression that the Duffers are afraid to kill characters. I think they just don't want to. Didn't they intend to kill Steve in season one but kept him around because they loved the character and the actor so much? 

[Racj82]

7 hours ago, MamaGee said:

I don't know why but I am struggling with the rewriting of history in regards to same sex couples. In the early 1980s, very few people were out of the closet, especially teens in a relatively small town. I went to school with a handful of gay people who we knew were gay but they denied it with every breath because they were afraid of backlash. I know our society is becoming more open to LGBTQ individuals but back then, it wasn't. To think any of these kids were comfortable being out to anyone is so inconsistent with the time frame these kids were living in. 

What rewriting history? Why do people keep acting like the 80s or anytime in history is made up people who were all some giant monolith that acted and thought the same way?

Steve is not an asshole. Therefore, he did not reject Robin. While silly at times, him and Nancy have been the mature of the group. If anyone were going to take Robin seriously and without judgment it would be them. Steve is the only one who knows and didn't judge. Robin did not get a parade of people loving and accepting that she is a lesbian. Jonathan is Will's brother. He's also the person Will is actually closest too and he's stood up for his brother every single time. Even when their dad called Will the f word back in season 1. 

They aren't rewriting anything. They are being consistent to the characters as they have been written. It would be bullshit to have Mike find out and immediately accept Will without pause. Because he's kind of dim this way. But, he would come around. It makes sense for this group. But, there is a reason she is not OUT out. Because of the reality that many other people in the world may not accept her. So, they aren't ignoring anything. If she was out and proud and got no resistance in this small town, then that would be bullshit. Not this as it has been presented.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, overtherainbow said:

Are the residents of Hawkins really that daft? Massive cracks appear throughout the town with lava, whole buildings are destroyed, strange smoke appears and they say it's a 7.5 earthquake? I guess they're just going off the "weird things happen in Hawkins" and no one questions that this?

They showed a lengthy line of cars leaving town as the California crew was arriving. So the implication I took was that many if not most people who were able to are fleeing. Those who are staying probably don't have the means to go or are main characters who are trying to fight it. There may be some people who are in denial. 

What the parents of our heroes outside of Joyce and Hopper are thinking about staying, I have no idea.

[Racj82]

3 minutes ago, Cranberry said:

I don't watch shows like this for realism. I watch shows like this as a fun escape from real life. I don't care if it's more realistic for these kids to die. I don't want to see dead kids when I'm watching my fun summer TV shows. There's enough of that on the news.

I watch shows to watch shows. I'm sorry if that would be hard for you.  For one thing, we have been watching teenagers die throughout this whole tv series so we are still watching kids die during our entertainment whether they are main characters or not. Two, I personally don't input real life into my fictional watching. I may notice it. In that sometimes it may be a rough occurrence that certain topics come up during certain timeframes. There will never be a good time to watch kids die. It doesn't matter what is going on in the world. These kids are in a very dark and very violent battle. I don't want punches being pulled to make others happy. It's amazing how many stories I've realized over the years had much better arcs or endings in place that were scrapped because fans weren't happy. They wanted a happy ending. Justice! I just want people to tell the story they want to tell. Sometimes it may be rough but I don't want writers to coddle me. I just want them to write good stories. Just speaking for myself. In the end I want to see our heroes win but I don't expect them all to survive. I love love Hopper. If he had stayed dead, I would have missed him but I would not have been mad at all. I thought it was brave of them to write off such a beloved character but it's just become what they do in terms of pulling punches.

I loved this ride. I can't relate to people that have issues with the run time or various nitpicks. This was my summer blockbuster. I love it. I was engrossed. I'm so invested in these characters. Certain people who don't like the show write it off as just 80s porn but it's so much more. Just like all the best the shows and movies, the characters and your investment in them come first. For me anyway. So, I was with this story every step of the way. I don't care about the run time. Give me a engrossing story and I will stay there as long they like. It's going to be a couple of years at minimum to get this show back. I'm just happy they returned and with renewed purpose.

[Cranberry]

1 minute ago, Racj82 said:

I just want people to tell the story they want to tell.

Why do you think they're not? Have they said something somewhere about wanting to kill characters but not being able to?

[Racj82]

3 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

They showed a lengthy line of cars leaving town as the California crew was arriving. So the implication I took was that many if not most people who were able to are fleeing. Those who are staying probably don't have the means to go or are main characters who are trying to fight it. There may be some people who are in denial. 

What the parents of our heroes outside of Joyce and Hopper are thinking about staying, I have no idea.

I was perplexed by MIke's mom. She should have been thrilled her son was out of Hawkins and leaving herself with her family. Get the fuck out!

But, I think they need to keep some around. I have a feeling that the ones who stay around will all be fighting for their town and the world. It will be an all hands on deck situation.

[Racj82]

3 hours ago, Cranberry said:

Why do you think they're not? Have they said something somewhere about wanting to kill characters but not being able to?

They could be. But, I guarantee you that IF they wanted to kill off a major character it will not just be their decision. It will be a fight to get it through to filming. And I'm not saying they aren't telling the story they want to tell. I'm saying I don't mind if they do kill off major characters while others are more concerned with who they kill off. I'm saying IF they kill off whomever, it's fine with me as long as they give it purpose and importance. It doesn't mean I will be dancing with glee. I sobbed when Eddie died. It means I will respect the decision and not be mad while other would be pissed and quit the show as a result. I don't operate that way is all I'm saying. No disrrespect to those that do.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Racj82

[Cranberry]

I think they can kill whoever they want in season five because they won't have to worry about audience retention or whatever, but they have spinoff plans that might be contributing to them sparing some of these people. It seemed from Millie Bobby Brown's pre-season comments that the Duffers also just don't want to kill off their beloved main characters.

[Aquarius97]

10 minutes ago, Racj82 said:

I was perplexed by MIke's mom. She should have been thrilled her son was out of Hawkins and leaving herself with her family. Get the fuck out!

But, I think they need to keep some around. I have a feeling that the ones who stay around will all be fighting for their town and the world. It will be an all hands on deck situation.

I can't see how the Wheeler's leave Hawkins before Mike returns, specially given that they can't even communicate with him

[eleanorofaquitaine]

I am not sure how it would have made sense to kill Steve from a plot perspective. There really wasn't a point where I felt that Steve was especially in danger (at least, any more in danger than Robin or Nancy). I agree that there would be fan backlash if he got killed but I don’t think there was any loss of nerve in killing him.

But I do think there seemed to be loss of nerve around killing Max, just like there was with Hopper in season 3. Whether that is because of fear of fan backlash or because they are just too attached to those characters and/or actors, I don't know. But given the set up, they are going to have to do something with Max beyond having her in a coma in season 5.

[Vella]

Oof. This season was a lot of too much, too much, too much and not enough.

Too much money, episodes too long, plot too thin, too much plot and not enough character development. So many characters got next to no character development. How many times did Will just stand there in a scene? Dustin, despite his screen time and lines, really got nothing either. Mike got very little, so did Lucas. Jonathan goes with nothing.

There was so much that didn't happen. So many opportunities to have characters TALK to each other but instead it was just plot focused so much of the time. It's utterly pathetic that Will and Jonathan were in EVERY episode together but didn't have a relevant conversation with each other until episode 9. That  Mike and Nancy couldn't get 15 seconds to reunite and hug each other. That Lucas and Erica didn't get a moment after everything even though she was in Max's hospital room when Lucas was reading out loud. Why not have Lucas finish and before everyone else arrives, they take 2 minutes and connect? Why didn't anyone but Dustin get to react to Eddie's death? Why did it take 9 episodes before Argyle became useful? Why was the El/Hopper reunion so flat? DH/MBB have a great dynamic, so how was that not given the time and energy it deserved? Eleven should have been thunderstruck by his reveal, it should have been way more monumental and emotional. Despite having all these supersized episodes, character content was either not there or squeezed into a tight frame.

The Russia plot was easily the biggest drain and entirely pointless. They could have cut half the time, had Hopper, Joyce and Murray stateside by episode 5. The Salt Lake City divergent could have been cut completely and just had the dying agent tell the California crew the coordinates. Jason and the jock squad could have been cut. Yuri could have been cut. The bullying could have been cut. I think Matthew Modine is great, but Brenner should have stayed dead and only used for flashbacks when Eleven was remembering her past with Owens helping her. The wall of videos was right there!

The Duffers clearly need someone to steer the ship. Someone to say "cut this down" or "cut this completely" or "bring them back together sooner" or "this is taking too long".

They need to go back to the tightness and control of Season 1 and 2. Season 3 is where things started to get out of hand, and it's just gotten worse with Season 4.