Under The Banner Of Heaven - General Discussion

[General Days]

On 6/1/2022 at 12:07 PM, Lassus said:

I'm legitimately astounded this has no forum on the main page.

I think that's because it is just a seven-episode miniseries.

13 hours ago, gesundheit said:

Decent ending but I definitely feel like there were missing pieces. Why were those two other guys with Ron and Dan? How do you go from "we hung out with Ron because he was a fun dude, but then we hated it when he talked about the religious stuff" to "but also we joined him on his blood atonement killing spree?" 

Also, we still really didn't see when Allen lost faith. 

Thank goodness the killing of the baby wasn't even a sound effect. 

I loved that Taba stopped trying to be polite about his feelings on Mormonism. He was so done. I know the detectives were total fiction, but it was a good final framing to have Taba representing another version of a religious history everyone was so attached to.

Why was Pyre's wife so welcoming when he came home, when in her previous scene she'd basically told him she was probably leaving him?

Given that this was based on a true story, I was disappointed that there were no follow-up details provided at the end on how things turned out, but I guess too much of it was fictionalized for updates to even make sense.

It felt like it should have been eight episodes, and they decided to make it seven at the last minute.
 

There should have been more denouement. Since Allen was the first suspect, his decision to go to his in-laws should've happened on screen. Jeb and his wife reuniting should have felt less sudden.

That said, I thought it was a great series. The ending was just rushed.

[Haleth]

I agree it was rushed and left some questions unanswered.  What happened to the Lafferty family?  (I read online what happened to Dan and Ron, but what about the rest of them?)  I am so glad Diana and her kids survived and it looks like Matilda escaped too.  (I guess she got her kids back when Dan went to prison?)  A show shouldn't make us have to search the internet for the conclusion; a denouement would be helpful.

As for the fictional story, did Jeb put all he learned on a shelf and returned to the fold for his family? 

I found this show both intriguing and horrifying.  The cast was superb.

[Notabug]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

I agree it was rushed and left some questions unanswered.  What happened to the Lafferty family?  (I read online what happened to Dan and Ron, but what about the rest of them?)  I am so glad Diana and her kids survived and it looks like Matilda escaped too.  (I guess she got her kids back when Dan went to prison?)  A show shouldn't make us have to search the internet for the conclusion; a denouement would be helpful.

As for the fictional story, did Jeb put all he learned on a shelf and returned to the fold for his family? 

I found this show both intriguing and horrifying.  The cast was superb.

From what I can find, the Lafferty family, for the most part, has avoided the spotlight and declined to be interviewed over the years; which is why there isn't much available about them online. They're entitled to their privacy and I can see why, after what happened in their family, that they chose to disappear.  They also belonged to a sect where living off the grid and avoiding governmental contact is part of their core belief system so they are probably better suited than most in keeping a low profile.

Mama Lafferty died a few years after the murders and it seems like the rest of the family  just faded away after the trials were done.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Notabug

[bosawks]

I am of two minds about Sam Worthington's performance.

Did he deliberately play up Ron's complete lack of charisma and therefore show the utter banality of the Laffertys and their evil.

Or did he just suck.

I'm confused.

[pasdetrois]

Why did they keep Alan in the holding cell long after they knew he didn't commit the murders? How long a time period was he in there?

Jeb's return to his smiling family seemed odd, given the prolonged struggle between him and his wife.

Appreciated the reality of the Indian/Mormon "partnership."

Glad I watched. There were some stand-out performances. Among the creepiest characters were the elderly Mormon leaders.

[Razzberry]

1 hour ago, pasdetrois said:

Why did they keep Alan in the holding cell long after they knew he didn't commit the murders? How long a time period was he in there?

I think Allen felt safe in the holding cell and asked to stay there for the time being.  How long, I don't know.

I also have questions.  Why would one family of wackos cause Jeb to have a crisis of faith?  Being a cop surely he was aware that even Mormons have their share of criminals.   These crazy families can be found everywhere.

Why is it that "revelations" always seem to dovetail seamlessly with what the guy wants to do anyway?  It's uncanny.   And why don't women receive revelations? 

[bosawks]

35 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

Why is it that "revelations" always seem to dovetail seamlessly with what the guy wants to do anyway?  It's uncanny.   And why don't women receive revelations? 

They get blocked by the vagina.

It's science............

[DonnaMae]

2 hours ago, Razzberry said:

And why don't women receive revelations? 

Because they're women and not the chosen sex.

[Kiss my mutt]

I thought this was very well done and quite illuminating into the deep underbelly of the Mormon church. The history lesson approach felt a bit pedantic and I would have preferred a different approach that didn’t take me out the action into a parenthetical aside every time a historical footnote needed to be made. It’s also difficult to transition into exposition without it sounding stilted. 
I wouldn’t be surprised if this is nominated for an Emmy or Golden Globe or whatever award agency this belongs in. Andrew Garfield blew me away with his depiction of a man, struggling with challenging new information and realizing blind faith was propagating the continued evil that exists in religion practices, unchecked and unexamined. I would have laughed if REM’s “Losing my Religion” started playing somewhere along the line. 

I thought Pyre and his wife reconciling without some kind of segue into it was awkward. I was surprised how strong a hold the church had on her that she would take the kids and marry another man who would bring the girls up as devout Mormons, and turn her back on him, though I shouldn’t have been. 
 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Kiss my mutt

[Haleth]

19 minutes ago, Kiss my mutt said:

. I was surprised how strong a hold the church had on her that she would take the kids and marry another man who would bring the girls up as devout Mormons, and turn her back on him, though I shouldn’t have been. 

I know a family that went through exactly that. The poor children were torn between two worlds and ended up needing lots of therapy. It’s awful. 

[Andyourlittledog2]

I had to sit with the last episode for awhile to understand some of the ending. What I came up with was that the ending was foreshadowed earlier in the episode by things Jeb realized and also by things Taba said to him.

At one point Jeb said that a good Mormon wife, married in the Temple as Dianna was, would return to try to save her husband.  Now, she actually returned to save Matilda, but that wasn't what Jeb was expecting, it was just what actually wound up happening.

I think when Jeb returned home and his wife was there with open arms to him that was what she herself had done. She mentioned that the stake president was hers too and at first I thought that was a negative but I came to the conclusion that instead of leaving she went to the stake president and intervened on Jeb's behalf so he would not be outcast and could remain her priesthood holder and raise their girls together. And he understood that.

The time when Taba told him that sometimes you don't have to still believe but it's still home and a comfort is how Jeb reconciled his faith with his new understanding of what it all really was. He could choose to remain and be an influence for good and this new understanding with his girls without throwing everything away.  If his wife left him because he left Mormonism his girls would wind up fully indoctrinated in things he didn't want them to succumb to. Eternal servants subject to some other man as priesthood holders etc. Staying meant he had his family and he could raise his girls. And take care of his mother, who would be left alone if his wife up and left. So he made peace with it. That last scene with his mom he articulated that view. Sometimes things just are and we can appreciate them for what they are, we don't have to ascribe some religious point of view to absolutely everything.

That's how I see it. YMMV of course.

When I was in my cult one of the things that was very common was to see absolutely everything in spiritual terms. Flat tire? That was God preventing you from the accident that would've happened if you kept going right then or timing a meeting with someone fortuitously, etc. Everything was like that. I remember one day I made a conscious decision to ascribe these events to 'life'. Just life. And the sense of relief and freedom was amazing. I had no realized how much pressure it was to feel like God was micromanaging every aspect of your existence on that level. So I imagine Jeb feeling that freedom like I did.

Anyway, that's how I see it. I don't know what the writers saw.

[Notabug]

8 hours ago, Razzberry said:

I think Allen felt safe in the holding cell and asked to stay there for the time being.  How long, I don't know.

.   And why don't women receive revelations? 

Yes, Allen told Jeb he didn't want to be alone and asked if he could stay at the jail overnight rather than being released right away.  I suppose, knowing that his brothers had brutally murdered his wife and child and were on the lam with more victims on their list., he was probably worried about his own safety.

As for revelations, Mormons hold that only men at the highest levels in the church receive them.  Since Ron and/or Dan believed that he/they were the 'one true prophet' alluded to by previous Mormon leaders, they felt that any revelations they received were directly from God.  In the regular Mormon church, it is the church president who has the direct connection to God and receives revelations.  Joseph Smith got a revelation that made him promote plural marriage and encourage all male members to take as many wives as possible.  Years later, when Utah wanted statehood and there were people in Washington who felt that the US Army should be sent there to bring those in plural marriages to justice first; the church president conveniently received a new revelation; that the church should now condemn plural marriage and promote monogamy.  Brigham Young got the revelation that they needed to kill the people in the wagon train.

The Mormon church traditionally excluded black men from the clergy, saying that they were the descendants of Cain and therefore cursed by God.  In 1978, then President, Spencer Kimball, said he got a revelation from God and that men of all races, including blacks, should be welcomed into the priesthood.

5 minutes ago, Notabug said:

Edited June 4, 2022 by Notabug

[Andyourlittledog2]

3 minutes ago, Notabug said:

The Mormon church traditionally excluded black men from the clergy, saying that they were the descendants of Cain and therefore cursed by God.  In 1978, then President, Spencer Kimball, said he got a revelation from God and that men of all races, including blacks, should be welcomed into the priesthood.

And by priesthood, they mean Mormon men in good standing in general. They don't mean a clergy like in other religions, they mean the rank and file men.  People of color were considered Lamanites and were not accepted into the church in general.  Girls are supposed to grow up and marry a strong priesthood holder who will give them babies and when they die their husbands will let them through the veil and into their version of heaven.  That relationship between men and women was central throughout this series.

[Notabug]

1 minute ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

And by priesthood, they mean Mormon men in good standing in general. They don't mean a clergy like in other religions, they mean the rank and file men.  People of color were considered Lamanites and were not accepted into the church in general.  Girls are supposed to grow up and marry a strong priesthood holder who will give them babies and when they die their husbands will let them through the veil and into their version of heaven.  That relationship between men and women was central throughout this series.

Yep, exactly.  Just being a male makes any man a representative of the church or 'priesthood holder' which gives him control over his family as well as a role in the leadership of their particular church.  In order to receive the 'high priesthood', all a man has to do is be 18 years old, have been a Mormon for a year and deemed 'morally worthy' by the more senior men in authority in the congregation.  There is no specific education or training needed; having a Y chromosome opens the door.

[Haleth]

Is it still that way?  That women and persons of color have no voice in church leadership?  Just curious.

[Notabug]

7 hours ago, Haleth said:

Is it still that way?  That women and persons of color have no voice in church leadership?  Just curious.

As I said above, in 1978, the church president had a revelation that black men could also join the priesthood.  Up until that time, they couldn't, which probably explains why, to this day, blacks make up only 3% of the membership.

Prior to that, the church not only wouldn't allow black men to join the priesthood, they actually promoted the idea that they were Lamenites, descended from Cain, who killed his brother Abel, in the Bible.  During the series, several people refer to Bill, the Native American detective, as a Lamenite due to his darker complexion.  It is not a compliment.

Women still have no leadership roles in the church.  They do a lot of the work of the church, like feeding families in need, but they are not permitted any role within the ecclesiastical mission of the church.  They agree in marriage that they will follow their husband and do as he commands, even if they disagree.  Women are generally taught that their most important role is as a wife and mother and any career they might pursue would be secondary to that.

Even in the series, we saw this with the Pyres, mainstream Mormons.  Jeb's mother lived with them and it was up to his wife to deal with her day to day.  When the doctor wanted to place her on medication to try to keep her from wandering off, Jeb refused and we saw his wife beg him more than once to reconsider because it was his call.  When he decided that he wasn't ready for the daughters to be baptized, he canceled it, despite his wife's very understandable reasons for wanting to move forward.  Ultimately, he decided and it was up to her to cancel the plans.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Notabug

[SunnyBeBe]

I finally wrapped up this series.  I had wondered if there would be any reference to the Osmond family, who were wildly popular in the 70’s and early 80’s. The finale showed Donny Osmond very briefly in a photo that was in his daughter’s diary. He was reading it in the scene right before the Florida police went to Dianna’s house for a wellness check.  She was a little bit young to be a Donny fan, as at that point, he was about 20 years old. But, with teen idols it works that way sometimes.  
 

Gladys Knight is quite vocal about her membership in the LDS. She says her son introduced her in 1997.  Derick and Julianne Howe seem to have left the LDS, which is what they grew up in, as has Amy Adams. They have fond memories of their upbringing.  Of course, the Osmond family stands firm, except that Marie is a proud supporter of one of her daughters who is a lesbian. I can’t imagine that goes over well with the church.  I’ve always thought their family had enough clout that their stuff got a hand wave, even though it was not favored.  (Oh, I grew up a huge Osmond fan and that was my early connection to the LDS.  I never did join, though attended some classes and services as a teen.)
 

I will say that this series could have taken a different route. I was expecting it to show the killers as outliers, who became disturbed and left all teachings of the Mormon Church to commit atrocities.  However, imo, it seems this project’s message was that the history of the Mormons, including the  LDS Church, was suspect and even corrupt, with cruelty and fraud that mirrored that of the Lafferty brothers.  That’s pretty bold.  Am I off on this perception?  
 

I agree with the poster above who saw that Taba figured a way to deal with this dichotomy of sorts as it applied to his faith. For me, it was about doing what works for yourself, even if it’s not perfect.  You can remember the teachings of your childhood and enjoy them, even if the representations are not necessarily true.  

Edited June 4, 2022 by SunnyBeBe

[Razzberry]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I will say that this series could have taken a different route. I was expecting it to show the killers as outliers, who became disturbed and left all teachings of the Mormon Church to commit atrocities.  However, imo, it seems this project’s message was that the history of the Mormons, including the  LDS Church, was suspect and even corrupt, with cruelty and fraud that mirrored that of the Lafferty brothers.  That’s pretty bold.  Am I off on this perception?

That was my impression as well.  Condemning an entire religion by the acts of a few extremists is why it failed for me.   I'd be more interested to learn about  the real cops who investigated this case and how they handled it.  

[Notabug]

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I finally wrapped up this series.  I had wondered if there would be any reference to the Osmond family, who were wildly popular in the 70’s and early 80’s. The finale showed Donny Osmond very briefly in a photo that was in his daughter’s diary. He was reading it in the scene right before the Florida police went to Dianna’s house for a wellness check.  She was a little bit young to be a Donny fan, as at that point, he was about 20 years old. But, with teen idols it works that way sometimes.  
 

Gladys Knight is quite vocal about her membership in the LDS. She says her son introduced her in 1997.  Derick and Julianne Howe seem to have left the LDS, which is what they grew up in, as has Amy Adams. They have fond memories of their upbringing.  Of course, the Osmond family stands firm, except that Marie is a proud supporter of one of her daughters who is a lesbian. I can’t imagine that goes over well with the church.  I’ve always thought their family had enough clout that their stuff got a hand wave, even though it was not favored.  (Oh, I grew up a huge Osmond fan and that was my early connection to the LDS.  I never did join, though attended some classes and services as a teen.)
 

As I recall, the Osmonds were always given special consideration from the LDS church.  None of the kids did the usual obligatory mission work that older teens and young adults are expected to do within the church.  I believe the message was that their fame as Mormon performers was taken into account and considered their mission work.

Marie also continued to work full time even after marrying and having kids which is usually not done.  In addition, she divorced her first two husbands, both of whom she married in the church; although she eventually remarried her first husband and they are still together.  Not what usually happens.  The church has cut the family a lot of slack.

I knew a girl in high school who was obsessed with the Osmond brothers, especially one of them who she was convinced was meant for her.  I think it was Merle/Merrill?  Anyway, she was raised Protestant, but ended up converting to Mormonism so that, when their fateful meeting occurred, she'd be ready to marry him.  Never happened of course., but I suppose the Osmonds did influence some people to convert.

I think you've hit the nail on the head as far as the theme of the series as well as the book.  In the book, Krakauer is a little more expansive, pointing out how virtually all faiths have some unsavory stuff in their past which informs them to this day and that people like the Lafferty brothers, who take things to the extreme, are the product of that. I didn't see it so much as condemning Mormonism as pointing that out, especially in light of what Bill told Pyre and Pyre's return to his family and praying with them.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Notabug

[SunnyBeBe]

Yes, I think the performing Osmond brothers were allowed to consider their mission, their performance around the world, which I see as reasonable, though, I’m not an LDS member and perhaps don’t grasp the extent of the 2 year mission work. I did take some classes with some local missionaries when younger.  The older two, non-performing brothers, Virl and Tom, did serve their missions.  Based on my experience as a fanatical Osmond fan, I think it’s highly likely fans have converted to LDS due to Osmond mania.  Lol

I wonder if the part of the finale about Dianna going to get her sister-in-law was fictional.  I can see that scenario being used for dramatic purposes.  Anyone know?  
Also, did Ron really try to kill his brother before they were arrested?  From what I read, that happened in the jail after their arrest.  Maybe, it happened twice.  

Edited June 4, 2022 by SunnyBeBe

[Andyourlittledog2]

I think the reason for the history lessons etc was because this wasn't just some true crime story: here's a murder, somebody's mad/jealous/greedy etc. The Lafferty's entire worldview was steeped in their diving into Mormon history and adopting early (what are now considered) extremist views of what being faithful means. They took it to the nth degree. They took it to a crazy level but they are not the only ones who have done/are doing this. These kind of believers are out there still. It was complex and hard to understand unless you understand where they are getting their ideas from and why the murders actually happened. Blood Atonement and the role of men and women in the church were central to the entire crime. And because this history and these ideas are foreign to most people we get a deeper dive than we are used to into the religious history and beliefs of one particular religion.

I don't see it as a hit piece but a necessary diversion to understand what we are seeing. It's kinda like reading The DaVinci Code. Catholic Church history and extreme beliefs play a role in that novel but the author cannot take for granted that his readers have any idea what he is talking about so there is exposition. It's not a perfect example but the only one that comes to mind that is widely known.

I really loved the series and the book and considering the massive amount of information in the book and the nature of the crimes covered I thought they did a good job making it work on both levels.

[Notabug]

On 6/4/2022 at 4:05 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

I wonder if the part of the finale about Dianna going to get her sister-in-law was fictional.  I can see that scenario being used for dramatic purposes.  Anyone know?  
Also, did Ron really try to kill his brother before they were arrested?  From what I read, that happened in the jail after their arrest.  Maybe, it happened twice.  

In the book, there is very little mention of Diana, except that she left Ron, taking their 6 kids with her, to Florida, which is where she was from originally.  Many people back in Utah, friends from church, etc, knew where she lived and she was verified to be safe very quickly after the murders.  There was nothing in the book about Diana driving from Florida to Utah to get Mathilda, so I think it didn't happen. She pretty much faded out of public view after the trial.

Matilda who had 2 daughters from a previous relationship, objected when her husband, Dan, wanted to marry the eldest.  He eventually decided to marry another young woman.  Supposedly, Matilda encouraged him to take on more wives because she wanted to get away from him and he threatened to take the kids from her if she left.  At the time of the murders, she lived with her kids in Utah, but Dan did not live with them although he visited.  She has also pretty much disappeared from sight since the trial.

The book had nothing in it about either brother attempting to kill the other prior to the incident in jail where Ron encouraged Dan to try to strangle him through the bars of their adjoining cells.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Notabug

[Jordan Baker]

On 6/3/2022 at 6:43 PM, Kiss my mutt said:

I wouldn’t be surprised if this is nominated for an Emmy or Golden Globe or whatever award agency this belongs in. Andrew Garfield blew me away with his depiction of a man, struggling with challenging new information and realizing blind faith was propagating the continued evil that exists in religion practices, unchecked and unexamined. 

I hope this series is nominated for multiple awards. I found the acting to be stellar across the board. I can easily see Garfield being nominated but I think Gil Birmingham is worthy of a nod, too. The two actors work together so well, and Pyre and Taba are now my favorite buddy detective team. 

It would be difficult to single out which of the brothers deserves a nomination, but I'd say perhaps Billy Howle (Allen) and Wyatt Russell (Dan). Also Daisy Edgar-Jones (Brenda) is excellent. I don't see any weak links in the cast.

The show was very intense, and I definitely had to leave the room many times because of the violence and cruelty, but I learned quite a bit and am happy I watched it.

Oh, and watching this series at the same time as watching "Tick, Tick . . . Boom," I am amazed by how versatile Andrew Garfield is. 

[Amethyst]

A very good series, but it would have benefited from another episode, or even another 30 minutes of exposition.  Still no idea where Matilda's daughters are, and they completely ignored the consequences of them running away.  Allen going to stay with Brenda's family was a kind conclusion for him, but we didn't get to see any of it.

Pyre's last scene with his wife definitely should have been longer.  It looks like she compromised a little since she was actually home with the girls when Pyre returned.  I think Jeb will stay and try to work things out with his wife, but he's not going to blindly follow the Mormon faith anymore.  The last scene with his mother implied that.  And after reading his daughters journals and seeing that they could go down the same path as Brenda, Jeb really can't ignore what he's seen.

Deanna and Matilda both deserved credit; Deanna for going back for Matilda, and Matilda finally standing up for herself and walking away.  

I don't blame Taba for confronting Jeb.  Taba's dealt with racist remarks from practically every Mormon elder they met, and Jeb's remark about Taba lacking a "moral compass" was enough to finally set him off.  Again, can't blame him.

A well written series.  Slow moving , but still very good.  Excellent performances all around.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Amethyst

[gesundheit]

On 6/3/2022 at 9:25 PM, Andyourlittledog2 said:

I had to sit with the last episode for awhile to understand some of the ending. What I came up with was that the ending was foreshadowed earlier in the episode by things Jeb realized and also by things Taba said to him.

At one point Jeb said that a good Mormon wife, married in the Temple as Dianna was, would return to try to save her husband.  Now, she actually returned to save Matilda, but that wasn't what Jeb was expecting, it was just what actually wound up happening.

I think when Jeb returned home and his wife was there with open arms to him that was what she herself had done. She mentioned that the stake president was hers too and at first I thought that was a negative but I came to the conclusion that instead of leaving she went to the stake president and intervened on Jeb's behalf so he would not be outcast and could remain her priesthood holder and raise their girls together. And he understood that.

The time when Taba told him that sometimes you don't have to still believe but it's still home and a comfort is how Jeb reconciled his faith with his new understanding of what it all really was. He could choose to remain and be an influence for good and this new understanding with his girls without throwing everything away.  If his wife left him because he left Mormonism his girls would wind up fully indoctrinated in things he didn't want them to succumb to. Eternal servants subject to some other man as priesthood holders etc. Staying meant he had his family and he could raise his girls. And take care of his mother, who would be left alone if his wife up and left. So he made peace with it. That last scene with his mom he articulated that view. Sometimes things just are and we can appreciate them for what they are, we don't have to ascribe some religious point of view to absolutely everything.

That's how I see it. YMMV of course.

I think this is likely the intention but I wish the show would've spent more time on it. There was also Allen's explanation that after he lost his own faith, his love for Brenda became his new religion, which seemed tied to resolution between Jeb and his wife. A little sad that it implies Jeb will go through the motions of a religion he has no faith in for the rest of his life, but it makes a certain sense.

On 6/5/2022 at 11:05 AM, Jordan Baker said:

I hope this series is nominated for multiple awards. I found the acting to be stellar across the board. I can easily see Garfield being nominated but I think Gil Birmingham is worthy of a nod, too. The two actors work together so well, and Pyre and Taba are now my favorite buddy detective team. 

Me too! I now want it to be an anthology series in which Pyre/Taba get a new case every season.

[General Days]

On 6/3/2022 at 11:40 PM, Notabug said:

The Mormon church traditionally excluded black men from the clergy, saying that they were the descendants of Cain and therefore cursed by God.  In 1978, then President, Spencer Kimball, said he got a revelation from God and that men of all races, including blacks, should be welcomed into the priesthood.

A little religious context tweak here, but LDS don't teach that the Lamanites were descendants of Cain.

LDS claim Lamanites were descendants of a prophet named Lehi, and one of the groups, along with the Nephites, Jaredites, and Mulekites, who they claim traveled from Jerusalem to the Americas about 600 years B.C. and are the forebears of Native Americans (which -- they aren't).

They further say Lehi was of the tribe of Joseph (of the biblical many colored coat, and "Tribe of Joseph" split into two Israelite half-tribes of Joseph's sons, Manasseh and Ephraim).

Biblically speaking, Joseph is Jacob aka Israel's son, Jacob is Issac's son, Issac is Abraham's son, and Abraham's genealogy traces back to Adam and Eve through their son Seth, not through Cain.

However, the LDS have at times taught that the Lamanites had the "Mark of Cain" and/or the "Curse of Ham," and at times associated that with dark skin, but now some try to obscure that. There's more, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamanites

[kaygeeret]

oh good gravy, if you have to reach that far back and twist and create new stuff.... then your cult marches on......

I freely admit that I do not understand why so many people need to have someone else tell them what to believe and how to behave and....etc.

That is just me I guess.

[Kel Varnsen]

I saw this got released on Disney Plus in Canada and watched the last 2 episodes over the last two nights. I wasn't sure if I would like it but it is really good. Unfortunately D+ only releases the episodes weekly. 

The only thing I really know about Mormons is from the American Experience PBS documentary I watched many years ago, so it is interesting to be reminded of the stuff from that movie. The only thing I really know about Jon Krakauer is the names of the books he wrote and he is a fan of Pearl Jam (because he was at a concert I was at and sitting in the next section from me).

But I am definitely hooked. They have done a great job making the family weird and creepy. On top of the PBS documentary I keep thinking of the Behind the Bastards podcast about chiropractors. Plus the actress playing Brenda (and the writing) is doing a great job showing how she would totally get under the family's skin without being super over the top anti-Mormon.

[kaygeeret]

Except Kel, I believe that Brenda was raised Mormon, albeit mainstream if not liberal.

She did believe in the Mormon 'ideals', for lack of a better word, BUT she absolutely was against the rule that women had no say and no opportunity beyond 'birthing babies' and staying home.

[Kel Varnsen]

57 minutes ago, kaygeeret said:

Except Kel, I believe that Brenda was raised Mormon, albeit mainstream if not liberal.

She did believe in the Mormon 'ideals', for lack of a better word, BUT she absolutely was against the rule that women had no say and no opportunity beyond 'birthing babies' and staying home.

Yea and that is sort of what I meant. The fact that she is Mormon, but not a good enough Mormon for her in-laws makes for a way better story than if she had been someone who wasn't religious or from a different religion. Even just her having opinions on things and being comfortable talking about them clearly annoys her husband's family. 

Plus the part where she threw her instructors creepiness back at him to get what she wanted was pretty funny. 

[kaygeeret]

Sorry I got it wrong Kel, I am notorious for skimming when reading.  I'll do better next time.

On another note, just finished Keep Sweet... on Netflix.  It is an excellent, if godawful documentary re: FLDS cults and the infamous (and disgusting) Warren Jeffs.  He achieved what the Lafferty brothers wanted.

Message in both: Beware of ANYONE who says they are the chosen one!

[cpcathy]

I just finished Keep Sweet too! Another word of advice after watching both shows: don’t be female.

[rlc]

On 5/9/2022 at 3:37 PM, Andyourlittledog2 said:

I don't know if they turn on lights in real life but they never do on TV or movies. I assume directors think it makes things look more dramatic. Once they are actually processing the crime scene there are all kinds of lights (in real life and on TV) but the TV walk through I've never once seen it happen.

They tried the lights in the garage when they entered the house in either episode 3 or 4). The power was out- likely because they didn't pay bills.

Edited June 13, 2022 by rlc

[tennisgurl]

Just watched this entire series, it was certainly an intense watch, I thought that it was a great, thought provoking show that left me with a lot to chew on. Some of the historical flashbacks were a bit confusing, but I also think that they were necessary to really understand the story and all of the context in which these things were happening. The actions of the Lafferty's were so deeply tied to the origin of Mormonism, we needed that to fully understand them and their obsession with what they see as returning to the true religion. I only really know the basics of Mormonism's history and how the religion works, mostly through a friend who had long since left the church, so I feel like I learned a lot while also wanting a really intense crime drama.

Poor Brenda, she should have listened to her dad and gotten out while she still could, even if I can see why Brenda stuck with Allan. When she married him the Lafferty's were intense at times and already holier than thou towards her, but also welcoming and they were so larger than life with their "Mormon Kennedy" vibe, and Allan was such a kind man, I can see why she got enchanted with them before things went south. I found it creepy just how quickly things escalated with them, the Lafferty went from being a seemingly mostly mainstream Mormon family with a thriving family business who were respected community members to these wild eyed cult leaders living off the grid and dressing like pioneers, committing horrible crime after horrible crime. I guess that was always there, going back to the patriarch killing the family dog when the boys were kids to teach them a lesson, but things really took such a sharp downward turn. 

I took the ending as Jeb deciding that he can hold onto some aspects of his faith, especially in connection with his family, even if he cant believe everything he was taught the way that he used to. It is a bit sad, the idea that he is going to spend his life going through the motions for a religion that he doesn't believe in any more for the sake of his family and so that his daughters don't end up in a Brenda situation, but I think the greater point is that he can find peace in other things now, and that's the best he can ask for. I do wish we had gotten into his feelings about his faith more and what exactly caused him to lose it, I think that it was less the Lafferty's and more how the mainstream church tried to cover things up and later on his research into the darker history of the church, but I wish that we had spent a bit more time on that. In general, my biggest issue with the show is that the ending was on the rushed side. I wanted at least some closure on what happened to the Lafferty's, more of Jeb dealing with his loss of faith and reconciling with his family, and especially Allan going to stay with Brenda's family, which is a really nice ending for him that I wanted to see on screen. 

Andrew Garfield can really do it all cant he?

Edited June 15, 2022 by tennisgurl

[pigs-in-space]

I’m just starting the last episode but so far I’m finding it really interesting how sympathetic towards Joseph Smith this seems to be. I’d also never heard the theory that Bringham Young was responsible for his final capture/death by adding lines to Emma’s letter. The implication being that Emma might have been able to sway him against polygamy eventually, so they had to stop it? It seemed like a really weird thing to throw in, especially since it would have been such a risky move for Young who wasn’t nearly as charismatic as Smith and was not guaranteed to be his successor.

I’m re-reading the book right now (this is probably my fifth or sixth re-read since I first read it ages ago) and it’s still one of my favorite non-fiction reads ever.

[Kel Varnsen]

Watched episode 3 this week. The whole thing with Jeb talking to his bishop about what to do about his mother was pretty painful. Especially with the bishop talking about considering medication. Now I am no doctor but I imagine that in the mid-1980's there weren't a lot of drugs to treat dementia, so wouldn't that just mean that drugs would just mean sedating her? 

[Red Fields]

I was so worried that something bad would happen to Taba during the whole series!

[Notabug]

On 6/17/2022 at 4:45 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

Watched episode 3 this week. The whole thing with Jeb talking to his bishop about what to do about his mother was pretty painful. Especially with the bishop talking about considering medication. Now I am no doctor but I imagine that in the mid-1980's there weren't a lot of drugs to treat dementia, so wouldn't that just mean that drugs would just mean sedating her? 

Usually, it would’ve meant giving her something to help her sleep at night so they could rest.  If she was prone to agitation or outbursts, something like Valium could be given.  The newer SSRI antidepressants such as Prozac arrived in the ‘80’s and also used.

The first drugs specifically aimed at dementia were not available until the early 2000’s.

While it may sound cruel to sedate someone with dementia; it is often a reasonable option that allows them to remain at home and protects from injury since no one or two people can provide 24/7 supervision.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 5/12/2022 at 9:17 AM, larapu2000 said:

The Mormons have an incredible genealogy research department!  You can visit it in SLC, I believe.

Isn't a lot of that genealogy research because they want to try and symbolically baptize everyone, including non-Mormons? One thing I remember about the documentary I mentioned above was how Mormons generated a bunch of controversy because they were symbolically baptising Jewish Holocaust victims.

As for the 4th episode which I watched last night the timeline swerve with Ron was pretty interesting. Also the Joseph Smith flashback where his wife said if he would be having extra wives she would be having extra husbands. Anyone know if that was historically accurate? Since I always thought that religions that promote polygamy were bullshit since it was always only polygamy for the men.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Kel Varnsen

[larapu2000]

6 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Isn't a lot of that genealogy research because they want to try and symbolically baptize everyone, including non-Mormons? One thing I remember about the documentary I mentioned above was how Mormons generated a bunch of controversy because they were symbolically baptising Jewish Holocaust victims.

Oh, I 100% guarantee it's not for pure and wholesome reasons.  I was just pointing out that they have exhaustive records.  The motive behind those records doesn't take away from their value as a resource.  But, yeah.  I'm sure it's not for the good of humanity.

[meep.meep]

I haven't seen the whole thing, but I don't recall being so annoyed watching a show ever.  It seems like they have abdicated showing anything basic about solving the case using policework for a fictional backstory about the fictional lead cop.  We just finished the 5th episode - where's the fingerprint analysis?  an APB for the other brothers?  showing suspect photos to Alan?  Anything?

How many ranting monologues does Rory Culkin get to deliver?  We're up to two different hide out cabins in the wilderness for the Lafferty boys.  I'm sure all the sister wives will show up next episode.  Why don't Andrew Garfield's clothes fit?  How many pensive stares into the distance do we have to watch?

Almost every scene is twice as long as it needs to be.  This could have been a nice tight four episode show, but it's self-indulgent and it shows.  Where's the murder board when you need it?

[DonnaMae]

1 hour ago, meep.meep said:

Why don't Andrew Garfield's clothes fit?

He looked fine to me.

[Notabug]

On 6/26/2022 at 6:49 PM, meep.meep said:

I haven't seen the whole thing, but I don't recall being so annoyed watching a show ever.  It seems like they have abdicated showing anything basic about solving the case using policework for a fictional backstory about the fictional lead cop.  We just finished the 5th episode - where's the fingerprint analysis?  an APB for the other brothers?  showing suspect photos to Alan?  Anything?

How many ranting monologues does Rory Culkin get to deliver?  We're up to two different hide out cabins in the wilderness for the Lafferty boys.  I'm sure all the sister wives will show up next episode.  Why don't Andrew Garfield's clothes fit?  How many pensive stares into the distance do we have to watch?

Almost every scene is twice as long as it needs to be.  This could have been a nice tight four episode show, but it's self-indulgent and it shows.  Where's the murder board when you need it?

This was never meant to be a whodunnit.  From very early in the investigation, the police focused on Ron and Dan and finding them.  They had multiple witnesses and a lot of evidence that they were the killers. There was a manhunt for them and that is how they were captured.  I believe the focus of the series was meant to show the history of Mormonism and how that had lead to extremists like the Lafferty brothers as well as to show how mainstream Mormons like Jeb hadn’t been educated about the less than savory parts of Mormon history.

[meep.meep]

I wasn't asking for a whodunnit.  I'm asking for the police work that identified Ron and Dan as the murderers and brought them to justice to be recognized.

Andrew Garfield's character is fictional.  I assume that the real police refused to have their names be used.  To focus so much on fictional detectives and their "revelations" about the church, seems to do a disservice to the victim of the crime.

You could make a great drinking game out of this - take a sip every time someone says "heavenly Father"

[Kel Varnsen]

I watched episode 5 last night and while I think I got the basics of the historical Joseph Smith stuff can someone fill in the blanks for me?

Smith's wife was involved in a newspaper article where I think she talked about how she opposed polygamy (either an interview or she wrote the article). Then the newspaper printing press was destroyed, but was that by Mormons or just an angry mob who didn't want any Mormons using their newspaper? 

And that article drove Joseph into hiding (or was he already in hiding?), so his wife wrote a letter trying to get him to come back. But as that letter made its way though people it just got reported verbally and people added their own words to really make him come back (I am not really sure what they added). Then when he came back other Mormons took him into custody, because they wanted him out. And then the angry mob and the army show up and kill him. Which I think was a set up by other Mormons who wanted him out, but if it was why were they defending him from the mob. 

Also even though he was a real person it was kind of funny how they showed Joseph Smith being killed, shot a bunch of times then stabbed in the heart as if he was a vampire or something. 

[MamaMax]

835899N

On 5/7/2022 at 12:39 PM, Avaleigh said:

I'm not 100% sure how to interpret where the wife was coming from in this scene. 

The husband though was putting his foot down when he reminded her of something she would already be well aware of--that he's the family’s priesthood holder and as such what he says goes. Sure, she gets to weigh in but he's the ultimate decision maker. It shows how there's a power imbalance in the marriage and since women aren't allowed to be priesthood holders, this imbalance of power will always exist in their marriage.

Interestingly, Black men were not allowed to become priesthood holders in the LDS church until 1978. Another fact about the history of the church that is extremely disturbing. When Sam Lafferty makes the comment about Bill's skin (the Gil Birmingham character) and how he's a descendant of the "Lamanites" there's definitely some racism at play in that scene. He goes on to use the phrase "a white and delightsome [people]" in a very deliberate way as opposed to the more modern "pure and delightsome". To me the racist undertones in that scene were very apparent. This show isn't pulling any punches when it comes to LDS history and theology. 

No they are not! did you catch Mother Pyre saying that Jews need Jesus or else they'll go to the terrestrial kingdom? Call back to the Mormons who were baptizing Jews posthumously, including Holocaust victims.

[Kel Varnsen]

I watched episode six yesterday and it was the craziest one yet. Between the weird Oregon 70's swinger Mormons, the old guy with the braided beard and his mine on the side of a mountain and everyone kissing Ron's ass and telling him he was the chosen one it was a lot. Although I did wonder where that giant mine/fortress on the mountain came from. I doubt that old guy built it. Was it somewhere real. 

Also Andrew Garfield sitting in his station wagon losing it about how messed up his church was was really well done. Especially after his wife said she still had faith and wouldn't be following him.

[Notabug]

On 6/30/2022 at 8:00 AM, Kel Varnsen said:

I watched episode 5 last night and while I think I got the basics of the historical Joseph Smith stuff can someone fill in the blanks for me?

Smith's wife was involved in a newspaper article where I think she talked about how she opposed polygamy (either an interview or she wrote the article). Then the newspaper printing press was destroyed, but was that by Mormons or just an angry mob who didn't want any Mormons using their newspaper? 

And that article drove Joseph into hiding (or was he already in hiding?), so his wife wrote a letter trying to get him to come back. But as that letter made its way though people it just got reported verbally and people added their own words to really make him come back (I am not really sure what they added). Then when he came back other Mormons took him into custody, because they wanted him out. And then the angry mob and the army show up and kill him. Which I think was a set up by other Mormons who wanted him out, but if it was why were they defending him from the mob. 

Also even though he was a real person it was kind of funny how they showed Joseph Smith being killed, shot a bunch of times then stabbed in the heart as if he was a vampire or something. 

A quick summary; over time, Joseph Smith's POV evolved and he began advocating polygamy, at least privately to other leaders in the church and taking additional wives for himself.  At the time, the church was based in Nauvoo, Illinois.  Several of the other leaders of the church disagreed with him on various things, especially concerning the governing of Nauvoo which was under the church's control.  Joseph Smith had gotten some political power and was able to influence the Illinois legislature to grant the church a lot of control over Nauvoo. Smith also supposedly wanted a couple of their wives for his own.  These dissenters were excommunicated by Smith and formed a splinter church.  They ended up publishing a newspaper criticizing Smith and various tenets of Mormonism including polygamy.  That was the only edition of the paper ever published as Smith ordered the local militia which was under his control, to destroy the press.  This led non-Mormons in the area who never liked the Mormon presence, to denounce Smith who had also declared martial law.  He was eventually arrested and was killed during a mob attack on the jail where he was held.  And, yes, there is suspicion that there was collusion between the local law enforcement holding Smith and a faction of former LDS members who didn't like him that allowed the mob easy access to Smith to kill him.

Emma, Smith's wife, did not like polygamy and publicly denounced it and claimed that Smith did not believe in it either, even though he had taken multiple wives at the time and was promoting it amongst the leaders of the church,  She even signed a petition against it at one point.  After Smith's death, there was a leadership void in the LDS church and a couple of different factions wrestled for control.  There were those who agreed with Emma and denounced polygamy and those who were supportive of polygamy and wanted to expand it.  Brigham Young, a polygamy supporter, ended up winning control of the church and the rest is history.  In later years, the LDS church used Emma's letters and other writings opposing polygamy as 'proof' that Joseph Smith wasn't a polygamist and that the LDS church did not condone it.  There is plenty of evidence that neither of these things is true.

Edited July 9, 2022 by Notabug

[greekmom]

Saw the whole thing. I loved Prye and Taub's relationship. Like two brothers from different mothers. Taub overlooked Prye's faith and Prye overlooked Taub's non religion.
The Mormon church is like the Scientologists.  Another cult religion. For the wives to go tattle to the Bishop, high priest, etc (like Pyre's wife) or to be told to submit (like Brenda) or turn a blind eye and not question.
I have to admit I did ff thru alot of the stuff in the past. I found it boring.
 

[Hava]

I watched this series after watching Keep Sweet. Surprisingly, I am less interested in the extremist factions of Mormonism, and more interested in learning more about mainstream Mormonism. I think I get what the extremists believe (as much as someone can get things like that), but I am having a really hard time wrapping my head around the mainstream beliefs. Like, I really don't get it. It seems like they are a part of mainstream American society, but also not. And they are a part of mainstream Christianity, but also not.