S42.E09: Game of Chicken

[blackwing]

4 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

And 7 advantages between 5 people?  Thank you, I've completely lost track - I just know  that Drea had 4 going into TC but I couldn't tell you exactly what they were.  I agree, at some point it becomes too ridiculous to really invest in the outcome.  It's not a social game as much as it is a chance visit to an island and a correct decision or two.

Now that they have done two back-to-back seasons with loads of secret advantages, I really hope that season 43 will be "BACK TO BASICS" and get rid of the multiple advantages all depending on actions of others and what is said or not said.  I hope they give the Prisoner's Dilemma captain's wheel a rest.  I hope there are no secret phrases about aliens landing on a coconut tree.

I want people to be sent for a "reflective journey up the hill" and everyone to assume that there is a captain's wheel but in fact there is not, and instead, the two or three people just got a nice nature hike, a nice view, good conversation, and maybe a sandwich at the top.

I don't think this will ever happen of course, because the lack of these secret advantages gives Jeffy that many less opportunities to cream his pants while helpfully explaining it all to the viewing audience.

[KeithJ]

16 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Now that they have done two back-to-back seasons with loads of secret advantages, I really hope that season 43 will be "BACK TO BASICS" and get rid of the multiple advantages all depending on actions of others and what is said or not said.  I hope they give the Prisoner's Dilemma captain's wheel a rest.  I hope there are no secret phrases about aliens landing on a coconut tree

I'd love to see a back to basics season with no hidden idols and no advantages.  But, at every tribal council, Jeff should still ask if anyone has one and wants to play it.

[watch2much]

2 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

Jonathan really disappointed me this episode. Him being dismissive of Lindsey and defensive with Drea and Maryanne - maybe shut up and listen, dude. Neither woman was being aggressive in the slightest. I also don't think they thought it was racist to vote out Chanelle or Rocksroy. Both women voted Chanelle out the previous tribal because they saw her as untrustworthy and Rocks was voted out by 4 other men who were also POC because of his being a bit too gung-ho on the all male alliance. But when they saw them sitting there, the visual of that hit them hard, which I can only even begin to imagine how hard that was for them to see. That is what they were reacting to.

yes, I didn't like Jonathan's treatment of the women , either.  and I get the visual was hard to take.  but the known facts were that MaryAnn and Drea had idols, (heck and they don't even know all the other things she has)...which made them strategically the ones to go after.  I believe Jonathan was stung because he was playing strategically and felt he was unjustly being called a racist.  

it will be interesting watching going forward to see if the players now tip toe around who to vote off due to optics.  that would be unfortunate.  I watch survivor in part because it's an escape from the what's going on in the world.  alliances are always fluid so how one can ascribe the reason someone is voted off at a particular time always seemed a mystery.  sometimes it's from plain personality irritation, some because they are a physical threat, some a liar, schemer, has an idol....all sorts of reasons.  I've never felt any vote was racial.  maybe I'm naive.

[Chicago Redshirt]

I am sad that we don't get Ponderosa. The adventures of Tori and Rocks now that they were voted off could have been legendary.

[LadyChatts]

I'm not going to get on the 'I hate Jonathan' train just yet, although last night was not a good look for him.  However, TC like that are frustrating because we only saw a sliver of what really went down.  We know Jeff asks leading questions, so did he somehow get this out of Drea to initiate this conversation?  Did she bring it up on her own?  Did Jonathan say anything to redeem himself, but they left that out?  I saw when Tori went to play her shot in the dark that Drea was leaning on Jonathan and he was hugging her back.  He said what he said, but I wish they had shown more of that TC.  I agree with the poster above who said Jonathan's reaction seemed more like he thought Drea was calling people racist for voting off Chanelle and Rocks (especially since no one saw what went down at the previous TC), and then it snowballed.  

I did wonder why Jonathan would tell Drea to target MaryAnne and not Tori, since Tori had been a target previously but was spared due to winning immunity.  I realize it was so he could claim he wanted to get her idol out of the game, but obviously didn't think it through that Drea might see that as a red flag since she had an idol, and what would happen if she played that idol and MaryAnne and her idol and extra vote left (of course I still think MaryAnne would have played her idol if Drea did).  Jonathan should have stuck to just kicking ass in challenges.  I did laugh when he said he was onboard with the guys alliance, because the big strong guys get targeted-despite the fact that the first two boots since the tribes came together were Lydia and Chanelle, Tori and Romeo had been the other targets.  Obviously Jonathan got votes in the Lydia boot, but so did MaryAnne. 

Quote

Rocks’s “there are five guys left” was a dick move even if he didn’t realize it and I’m so glad Omar was like “six” with no hesitation.  I’m starting to feel badly for Romeo because his emotions have to be in a whirlpool with how everyone talks to him.   

This made Omar go up in my book.  Especially when he told Romeo about the alliance.  It's clear why they didn't ask Romeo, and it's gross because he doesn't fit their image of what a "guy" should be.  I'm glad Romeo stuck around over Rocks.  I just wish Mike had gotten blindsided, but I guess Hai made the smart decision.  I thought it was interesting that Hai was willing to keep Romeo over Rocks.   

Quote

it will be interesting watching going forward to see if the players now tip toe around who to vote off due to optics.  that would be unfortunate.  I watch survivor in part because it's an escape from the what's going on in the world.  alliances are always fluid so how one can ascribe the reason someone is voted off at a particular time always seemed a mystery.  sometimes it's from plain personality irritation, some because they are a physical threat, some a liar, schemer, has an idol....all sorts of reasons.  I've never felt any vote was racial.  maybe I'm naive.

This is what I hope doesn't happen.  Chanelle, Rocks, and Drea were all targeted for valid reasons.  But I hope the others don't let Drea or MaryAnne coast through the game because they are afraid to target them.  In casts that are more diverse, the boots are going to be more diverse.  Survivor and my other reality shows are my escapism from the real world.  I never cared as much as other about these personal backstories we are now getting or everyone getting airtime (frustrating, yes, especially if you are that player.  But if you aren't interesting TV then I can understand)..  I just wanted to see game play and camp life and stupid drama over someone feeling offended that their name was written down (because how dare they be voted for!)  I have loved the reactions to people being voted off this season.  Maybe we'll get a bitter jury.

Edited April 28, 2022 by LadyChatts

[jaigurudeva]

7 minutes ago, KeithJ said:

I'd love to see a back to basics season with no hidden idols and no advantages.  But, at every tribal council, Jeff should still ask if anyone has one and wants to play it.

I would so love this! Just imagine the paranoia of the players searching for idols and unable to find any, and believing that someone else must have found one and isn't saying. Or taking them on field trips or exile islands but the prisoner's dilemma is just getting food instead of an idol/amulet/extra vote, I imagine the tribe also wouldn't believe it when they come back.

[AntFTW]

Just now, Brendan Birch said:

Romeo's not even in the majority alliance.  That alliance is Hai, Mike, Jonathan, Lindsay, Omar, and Drea.  Rocksroy was a former member of it before he was voted out.  Romeo wasn't part of it at all.

Just discovered that. I thought he was in.

[lawrbk]

1 hour ago, cdnalor said:

Doesn't playing SITD and getting the Safe scroll mean that no one goes home?  I think Lindsay was in no danger whatever the outcome.

That was my view. All the votes were for tori. Tori doesn’t get to vote if she uses her SITD. So zero votes for Lindsey. I guess no one would’ve gone home? A ‘survivor first’ in addition to a Very Special Survivor? Jeff would’ve orgasmed right there. 

[AntFTW]

55 minutes ago, lawrbk said:

That was my view. All the votes were for tori. Tori doesn’t get to vote if she uses her SITD. So zero votes for Lindsey. I guess no one would’ve gone home? A ‘survivor first’ in addition to a Very Special Survivor? Jeff would’ve orgasmed right there. 

But if Tori turned out to be safe, there would be zero votes. Wouldn't there be a "revote" leaving Lindsey as the only one eligible to receive votes?

I remember on Game Changers, Cirie got zero votes but everyone else had idols and advantages. Although she got zero votes, she was the only one eligible to receive votes and therefore was "voted" out.

Edited April 28, 2022 by AntFTW

[lawrbk]

5 minutes ago, jaigurudeva said:

I would so love this! Just imagine the paranoia of the players searching for idols and unable to find any, and believing that someone else must have found one and isn't saying. Or taking them on field trips or exile islands but the prisoner's dilemma is just getting food instead of an idol/amulet/extra vote, I imagine the tribe also wouldn't believe it when they come back.

This has been my dream for awhile. Do back to backs with no idols, etc but no one knows it and they’re still scampering around, etc. Then repeat that every few years to keep people on their toes. 

[LadyChatts]

2 minutes ago, lawrbk said:

That was my view. All the votes were for tori. Tori doesn’t get to vote if she uses her SITD. So zero votes for Lindsey. I guess no one would’ve gone home? A ‘survivor first’ in addition to a Very Special Survivor? Jeff would’ve orgasmed right there. 

I think Lindsey would have gone home, because she was the only other person they could vote for.  She didn't play her shot in the dark, so if Tori was safe, then she would have been Cirie'd out of the game.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 minute ago, lawrbk said:

That was my view. All the votes were for tori. Tori doesn’t get to vote if she uses her SITD. So zero votes for Lindsey. I guess no one would’ve gone home? A ‘survivor first’ in addition to a Very Special Survivor? Jeff would’ve orgasmed right there. 

I suppose no one will know for sure.

But to me, the common-sense interpretation of SITD is that you have a one-time where you can trade in a token for a 1 in 6 chance of safety. If Tori had hit the 1 in 6 chance, there would have been a forced revote. Everyone but Lindsay would have been safe, by virtue of Drea and Maryanne's two HIIs, Jonathan's II win, and Tori's successful shot in the dark. Now if Lindsey had a chance to also take her SITD, could she have hit? I guess it depends on how they stack the scrolls. If it literally is 1 safe and 5 not safe, then no. If it is 2 safe and 10 not safe, then yes. What would have been done in that scenario? The fairest thing would be to say no one goes home.

However, I would probably expect producer shenanigans to prevent that. So sorry...the scroll you picked is "Not Safe" 

[cdnalor]

Okay, now I remember, I was thinking of the time a player had to smash one of three(?) pots to get a safety scroll, but I don't know if it was Survivor or Australian Survivor.  Fucked if I can keep all this crap straight at this point. 

[fishcakes]

33 minutes ago, LadyChatts said:

I thought it was interesting that Hai was willing to keep Romeo over Rocks.   

I think it's because Hai and Omar both understand that if they did a men's alliance that they would be on the bottom of it. I might be misremembering, but the initial discussions about it only included Rocksroy, Mike, and Jonathan, and their reasoning was that they were the big, strong guys who are always targeted. I kind of doubt they include Hai and Omar in that group even though both been impressive in challenges, but right now they're needed for numbers so "men's alliance" is a good way to sell it. If it got down to the five, though, Hai and Omar would probably be out unless they won immunity/won the F4 fire challenge.

Edited April 28, 2022 by fishcakes

[bankerchick]

1 hour ago, ProfCrash said:

I don't think anyone got a safe scroll. I think the scroll was only pulled once last season and it was not safe.

I'm sure a 'Safe' scroll was pulled last year by a guy who was 'dead man walking' at that point?  DeShaun (something like that, after the season is over, I immediately forget everyone's name)  Not sure if it was the night of last year's big Very Special Tribal Council but he was definitely one of the stars.  Someone else went home.  Granted, it was a regular vote so there were probably other names written down.  I don't recall a revote but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Edited April 28, 2022 by bankerchick

[ProfCrash]

28 minutes ago, lawrbk said:

That was my view. All the votes were for tori. Tori doesn’t get to vote if she uses her SITD. So zero votes for Lindsey. I guess no one would’ve gone home? A ‘survivor first’ in addition to a Very Special Survivor? Jeff would’ve orgasmed right there. 

 

25 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

But if Tori turned out to be safe, there would be zero votes. Wouldn't there be a "revote" leaving Lindsey as the only eligible to receive votes?

I remember on Game Changers, Cirie got zero votes but everyone else had idols and advantages. Although she got zero votes, she was the only one eligible to receive votes and therefore was "voted" out.

This. Lyndsey would be voted out because she was the only person available to be voted out.

[fishcakes]

8 minutes ago, bankerchick said:

I'm sure a 'Safe' scroll was pulled last year by a guy who was 'dead man walking' at that point?  DeShaun (something like that, after the season is over, I immediately forget everyone's name)  Not sure if it was the night of last year's big Very Special Tribal Council but he was definitely one of the stars.  Someone else went home.  Granted, it was a regular vote so there were probably other names written down.  I don't recall a revote but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

DeShawn was safe on the Monty Hall problem. He had to pick one of three boxes, and he picked the one that made him immune. The only person who played their Shot in the Dark last season was Sydney and she got a Not Safe scroll. It's kind of funny/odd that last season, only one person played it, and this season four people have already done so, but I think that it's because this group overall are just better players than last season, so they're not as complacent and sure of their spots.

[KeithJ]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I am sad that we don't get Ponderosa. The adventures of Tori and Rocks now that they were voted off could have been legendary.

I wonder if there is any bad fallout from this TC that spilled over to Ponderosa and that's why we didn't get one this season.

[DEL901]

7 minutes ago, KeithJ said:

I wonder if there is any bad fallout from this TC that spilled over to Ponderosa and that's why we didn't get one this season.

Apparently there was some sort of HR problem late last season, and since the seasons were filmed back to back, they couldn’t get a replacement.  

[eel21788]

15 hours ago, 30 Helens said:

Why not here? Survivor is all about social dynamics. The only reason race has not been discussed in past seasons is because there have been one or two Black contestants, max, and to bring up racial issues would mean a quick demise. 

They devoted an entire season to race relations (season 13; Cook Islands).

There were four tribes divided by Whites, Blacks, Asians and Hispanics. The final three were two Asian and one Hispanic. The jury were two Asian, three Black and four White, so those voted out pre-jury were one Asian, two Black, four Hispanic and one White. 

[LadyChatts]

36 minutes ago, eel21788 said:

They devoted an entire season to race relations (season 13; Cook Islands).

There were four tribes divided by Whites, Blacks, Asians and Hispanics. The final three were two Asian and one Hispanic. The jury were two Asian, three Black and four White, so those voted out pre-jury were one Asian, two Black, four Hispanic and one White. 

Not to mention Fiji was supposed to be another Cook Islands until one of the contestants dropped out.  That season, only two of the white contestants were on the jury, and when the actual merge happened, only one white contestant made it (out of 10).  I'm not going to say Survivor hasn't been bad with casting diversity or stereotypically portraying the contestants, especially in the early seasons, but we could also argue they've been bad towards women, older women, contestants that can't fit into a bikini-really anyone that didn't fit into the Parvati, Hantz, or Ozzy mold.

Edited April 28, 2022 by LadyChatts

[bankerchick]

2 hours ago, fishcakes said:

DeShawn was safe on the Monty Hall problem.

I stand corrected.

[KittyKat425]

19 hours ago, Runningwild said:

I’m out. I’m sick of this crap. The vote wasn’t about race at all. Drea and Maryanne made it about race. 

Yes, I agree and put the others still in the game in an awkward position...how do you vote them out now without called out as a racist....and if one of them makes the final three the jury is almost forced to vote for them or it will be controversial. Jeff egging them on doesn't help...makes me really miss the old days of Survivor.

[mythoughtis]

I do not want every tribal council to have to look at who they voted out last and make sure they don’t vote someone out who looks, acts, or has the same sexual orientation of that person.  I want the votes to be either strategic or to increase peace and harmony at camp.  Meaning they can continue to vote out  people who annoy the crap out of them.  
I realize the optics of this TC were disturbing to the two jury members and to Drea and Mary Ann.  I don’t know how you change that especially when the cast is so diverse this season. As others have said, there are several more POC remaining in the game  than  Caucasians.  The likelihood of two or three POC being voted out in a row is feasible. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, KittyKat425 said:

Yes, I agree and put the others still in the game in an awkward position...how do you vote them out now without called out as a racist....and if one of them makes the final three the jury is almost forced to vote for them or it will be controversial. Jeff egging them on doesn't help...makes me really miss the old days of Survivor.

The people at this tribal went out of their way to say that they loved the other contestants and didn't think they were at all racist. So hopefully that will end any concern on that issue.

But even if it doesn't, pretty sure that any contestant who might form the notion that either one of their fellow contestants or the public at large might see them as racist is not going to that notion stand in the way of them getting a million bucks. 

The jury isn't "almost forced" to vote for any contestant. In the scenario where it's Lindsey, Jonathan and a person of color, the 8 jury members aren't obliged to vote for someone for the person of color. It should be pointed out in that scenario 7 of the 8 jury members would themselves be people of color. So the notion that they would be so fearful of being labeled racist by any of the three contestants or the public at large seems unlikely. I should also point to last season where two of the three black jury members didn't vote for the black finalist.

By the same token, it's doubtful that these contestants would feel compelled to vote for a sole white finalist to show that they aren't prejudiced against whites.

[Homer]

Having watched every season of Survivor since 2000, last night’s episode for the very first time, played the “race card”, that was so uncalled for, I was outraged.  I suppose if Maryanne was voted out and the main reason given to her beforehand was she talks too much, that would be considered “racist” as well.  What a crock!  This game doesn’t care if you’re black, white, yellow or green.  It’s how you play the game.  Next we should expect to hear from the LGBTQ crowd once Romeo and Hai get voted out!  SMFH!

[blackwing]

5 hours ago, HurricaneVal said:

I had totally forgotten about Rocksroy saying he hoped they'd (Romeo and Hai) freeze.  That's the kind of bitterness I like to see in a juror!  Unfortunately, after a couple weeks of satiation and leisure at Ponderosa, that bitterness usually kumbaya's right up to cooing kitten at final tribal council.  It's a pity we'll never get another "snake and rat" Sue-like speech, with gritted teeth, glaring eyes, stalking demeanor, bitterness oozing out of all pores like poison from a toad, ever again.  Makes me sad, really.  

Reed (the broadway dancer) was pretty bitter during San Juan Del Sur.  He loathed Missy so much and his speech was all about bitterness.  

1 hour ago, mythoughtis said:

I do not want every tribal council to have to look at who they voted out last and make sure they don’t vote someone out who looks, acts, or has the same sexual orientation of that person.  I want the votes to be either strategic or to increase peace and harmony at camp.  Meaning they can continue to vote out  people who annoy the crap out of them.  
I realize the optics of this TC were disturbing to the two jury members and to Drea and Mary Ann.  I don’t know how you change that especially when the cast is so diverse this season. As others have said, there are several more POC remaining in the game  than  Caucasians.  The likelihood of two or three POC being voted out in a row is feasible. 

Yes, I agree, and I don't know what the solution is.  There are only two white people left in Jonathan and Lindsay. 

I'm not sure of Omar's exact ethnicity apart from he is Muslim, so he is probably of some Middle Eastern ancestry.  I think Middle Eastern is technically counted as white for census purposes, but he is a member of an ethnic minority in this country so I would consider him as a minority.  Mike looks to be biracial, I thought he was black and white but some here say he is Puerto Rican and white?  I'm not sure how he identifies but I would consider him as a minority.

So yes, the likelihood of a string of minorities getting voted out is quite high.

It's interesting to me because last season after Queen Shan's failed attempt at running the game, the three boots in a row were all of her alliance... Shan, Liana then Danny.  I don't recall Deshawn or anyone complaining about the optics of three black faces getting booted in a row, was there?  Is it because he was the one that orchestrated Shan's ouster that this wasn't raised as an issue?

For the most part, if Drea had been blindsided, I don't think any of them would have thought "oh wow, we just booted out three black people in a row" unless someone pointed it out to them.  The fact that Jonathan and Lindsay didn't consider that to me is a good thing, it shows that they aren't looking at people's race when they decided who to boot. 

I do hope that decisions as to votes going forward in this season and future seasons are strategic and don't depend solely on race.  Just like how Hai had no issues voting out Jenny even though the two of them were the only two Asian contestants, how Mike (if he is indeed half Puerto Rican) had no issues voting out the only other Hispanic contestant in Romeo, and how Drea had no issues voting for Chanelle.

I cannot remember, was Maryanne told about the plan to vote out Drea?  If not, who was she going to vote for?  If she was in on it, it seemed she had no issues voting Drea out until she was surprised that Rocksroy had been voted out.

Edited April 28, 2022 by blackwing

[Chicago Redshirt]

47 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

I do not want every tribal council to have to look at who they voted out last and make sure they don’t vote someone out who looks, acts, or has the same sexual orientation of that person.  I want the votes to be either strategic or to increase peace and harmony at camp.  Meaning they can continue to vote out  people who annoy the crap out of them.  
I realize the optics of this TC were disturbing to the two jury members and to Drea and Mary Ann.  I don’t know how you change that especially when the cast is so diverse this season. As others have said, there are several more POC remaining in the game  than  Caucasians.  The likelihood of two or three POC being voted out in a row is feasible. 

Good news! You almost certainly won't have every tribal council look at who they voted last in the way you're saying.

Despite the subject of race dominating that last tribal, the boot of Tori was both strategic and did increase peace and harmony at camp. (And of course, I should point out that these things are not mutually exclusive. Booting someone because of race etc. can be strategic and it can increase peace and harmony at camp)

It's not just feasible that there will likely be a stretch of two or three POC voted out in a row. It's inevitable. With two white contestants and 6 POC, I don't think there is a configuration where you can eliminate five more players and not do at least two POC in a row.  (W/POC/W/POC/POC is the latest you can go, I think).

That said, there is a difference between grouping POC contestants and Black candidates in this context, at least in the minds of Drea and Maryanne (and me as well). It was striking optics to have two of the five Black contestants first out and to have a third in a row poised to join them.

I think it would be just as striking if the contestants boot Lindsay and Jonathan, making three White contestants in a row, even if there are good non-race reasons for booting either of them. (Weaken the ex-Taku tribe, Lindsay is one of the few people who was not part of the mega-alliance, IIRC, and of course Jonathan is a challenge beast who could go on an immunity run).

[Chicago Redshirt]

11 minutes ago, blackwing said:

It's interesting to me because last season after Queen Shan's failed attempt at running the game, the three boots in a row were all of her alliance... Shan, Liana then Danny.  I don't recall Deshawn or anyone complaining about the optics of three black faces getting booted in a row, was there?  Is it because he was the one that orchestrated Shan's ouster that this wasn't raised as an issue?

What would be the point of complaining? Who would care among the players that were still in the game? His job was to try to win a million and pointing out that the survivors systematically eliminated Black people wasn't going to get him anywhere.

I'm sure privately he and the other Black players that season seethed about it. 

But then again, they brought the situation on themselves by broadcasting that they were aligned and yet being completely foolish in how they were aligned. If Deshawn and Danny hadn't been so eager to get rid of Ricard, if they hadn't been so annoyed at Shan, If Shan hadn't been so stupid as to warn Ricard, if a half dozen other things...

Also, it's entirely possible that it was raised as an issue but edited out. 

I'd be pretty sure that some viewers must have commented about how the Black final tribe members were basically Pagonged. And IIRC would have been if Deshawn hadn't caught lucky a time or two.

[LadyChatts]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

It's interesting to me because last season after Queen Shan's failed attempt at running the game, the three boots in a row were all of her alliance... Shan, Liana then Danny.  I don't recall Deshawn or anyone complaining about the optics of three black faces getting booted in a row, was there?  Is it because he was the one that orchestrated Shan's ouster that this wasn't raised as an issue?

For the most part, if Drea had been blindsided, I don't think any of them would have thought "oh wow, we just booted out three black people in a row" unless someone pointed it out to them.  The fact that Jonathan and Lindsay didn't consider that to me is a good thing, it shows that they aren't looking at people's race when they decided who to boot. 

I do hope that decisions as to votes going forward in this season and future seasons are strategic and don't depend solely on race.  Just like how Hai had no issues voting out Jenny even though the two of them were the only two Asian contestants, how Mike (if he is indeed half Puerto Rican) had no issues voting out the only other Hispanic contestant in Romeo, and how Drea had no issues voting for Chanelle.

I cannot remember, was Maryanne told about the plan to vote out Drea?  If not, who was she going to vote for?  If she was in on it, it seemed she had no issues voting Drea out until she was surprised that Rocksroy had been voted out.

She was.  Then she said privately she was tired of Jonathan treating her like a little kid, telling her what to do, and she wasn't a sheep.  But I think she would have gotten rid of Drea.  It's clear that MaryAnne and Tori were very close out there based on Tori's exit interviews, so the only other option for MaryAnne would have been Lindsey.  And I doubt she would have convinced Drea to vote Lindsey, even if it would have worked out for Drea to have someone who held the amulet advantage gone (right?  I'm still confused exactly how that amulet works).

I don't want to say this is a novelty we are seeing, but BB23 did their cookout alliance, and S41 and 42 (which never saw BB23 before filming, and S42 never saw S41, either) are having these moments.  People may feel more comfortable playing the game going forward and not feeling like they have this obligation to necessarily represent.  

And your right about Drea, targeting her was clearly strategic from Jonathan's POV.  He may recognize now is the time to make a big move and get some resume cred going on.  He thought he was just getting rid of Drea's idol, but he had no idea just how much would have gone home with her if that plan had succeeded.  Just like targeting Chanelle.  And Rocks maybe would have been safe if not for the whole guys alliance thing.  I'd be curious to know if Hai would have still voted for him if not for that.  I think Chanelle said something in one of her exit interviews that Hai always wanted to be on the right side of the vote, which was the only reason he ended up voting for Jenny and Lydia.  As for last season, I can't remember the reasoning behind Danny's boot, but Shan and Liana also dug themselves a hole that they couldn't get out of.  I'd argue that Shan probably put more of a target on Liana's back especially after revealing her KIP advantage to Tiffany.  So while I get that these contestants may look at it like people of a certain race are getting picked off, most of the actions are justified as to why they left.  

[nlkm9]

10 hours ago, ihartcoffee said:

Funny how they downplay that part in their mind's.  That's what I find so fake about all this indignation.  

Yes and now noone wants to be the person votes out a person of color. And for daring to speak back to her , johnathon is vilified. 
Its a no win situation. Had they not voted for other people of color, i would feel differently. But i did love seeing a different side if maryann, maybe the “ dippy” side of her is a big front. The other thing i liked that during the vote, johnathon and drea and maryann were hugging💙

[ProfCrash]

46 minutes ago, LadyChatts said:

 

I don't want to say this is a novelty we are seeing, but BB23 did their cookout alliance, and S41 and 42 (which never saw BB23 before filming, and S42 never saw S41, either) are having these moments.  People may feel more comfortable playing the game going forward and not feeling like they have this obligation to necessarily represent.  

 

This was also played during that period of COVID isolation AND the Racial upheaval after George Floyd and other deaths. There was a lot of outrage and discussion. We know that Season 41 referenced those events as part of their motivation for their attempted alliance. I can only imagine that those same events are weighing on the experiences of the players in Season 42. 

It also ties into the conversation that was being had because there was more open discussion of privilege, systemic racism, and other issues that directly affected the experiences of Black people in the US. 

This didn’t come out of nowhere, just like it didn’t come out of nowhere for season 41 or Big Brother that aired that summer. 

[ZeeEnnui]

I'm grateful to the CBS editors for sparing us from what I imagine was Jeff's giant O face during the second tribal council. 

Shutting up is always an option, Jonathan. I've liked Jonathan but I first got my back up with the paternalistic and condescending way he kept shutting Lindsay down on the beach, and then calling Drea aggressive. Maybe it was because I had a meeting this week where I had a colleague keep trying to talk over myself and another female colleague on a project that the both of us worked on without him, so I was definitely not in the mood for any meathead mansplaining in this episode. 

I'm very white and I winced when I saw Chanelle and Rocksroy sitting there. It's not a great look. Yes, there were other people that weren't black voted out before they were but we all react visually to what's in front of us, and it wasn't a good look. (Even if many of us can agree that Rocksroy was a bit of a blowhard, and had terrible social game). I can't imagine what that must have felt like for Drea or Maryanne to see that, and I really appreciated them sharing their perspective.

Another muscle group that Jonathan should work on are his listening skills. It's a really bad look when white people jump in with the "I'm not racist" defense. Unless you traded your purple buff for a white hood or started hurling around slurs then this probably isn't about you. Most people aren't going to say they are racist anyway. If you want to be an ally, stop inserting yourself into a situation that has nothing to do with you and listen...you might have a "more you know" moment. 

I will miss Tori and her chaotic energy. 

[AntFTW]

39 minutes ago, ZeeEnnui said:

Shutting up is always an option, Jonathan. I've liked Jonathan but I first got my back up with the paternalistic and condescending way he kept shutting Lindsay down on the beach

I just felt like what was the point of Jonathan bringing this idea to Lindsey if he wasn't gonna listen to her feedback. Pitch the idea, why you think it will work, and maybe where it might backfire. After that, SHUT UP!!! and let her give feedback.

Edited April 29, 2022 by AntFTW

[princelina]

11 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

I bet that Drea was worried about tribal any way and seeing Rocksroy there, who wasn't supposed to be there, got her thinking about what might happen in their Tribal. 

I know you meant this nicer than I'm taking it 😄  - I wonder if seeing her ally there made her tear up, but she needed a better reason for it than just being a sore loser!  But I'm a cynical bitch about most people.

 

9 hours ago, laurakaye said:

Behind the scenes, Jeff is probably gleefully scribbling in his secret notebook about the facial expressions he's going to make and the speech he's going to give when, for the first time in Survivor history, he won't be able to Snuff! Anyone's! Torch!  He'll be completely gobsmacked, even though he's been setting up that very scenario. 

I said to Mr P that for all of the dud that the SITD has been for two seasons, Tori using it here probably gave Jeff a feeling that it had finally justified itself 😄

 

9 hours ago, lawrbk said:

This has been my dream for awhile. Do back to backs with no idols, etc but no one knows it and they’re still scampering around, etc. Then repeat that every few years to keep people on their toes. 

I'll put my pitch in here again just in case TPTB are reading:  copy season 1 without telling them.  Let's see who the "superfans" really are when they figure it out!

 

3 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

Honestly, I would not be worried about alliances based on race, ethnicity, or nationality because strong alliances come down to more personalities that can work together then some base commonality, even if that common thing is powerful, like race.

Yeah - superficial alliances fall apart quickly because people don't necessarily like or trust one another just based on skin color/gender/sexuality/etc.  What will ruin the game is if people have to worry about "optics" when they vote.

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, nlkm9 said:

Yes and now noone wants to be the person votes out a person of color. And for daring to speak back to her , johnathon is vilified. 
Its a no win situation. Had they not voted for other people of color, i would feel differently. But i did love seeing a different side if maryann, maybe the “ dippy” side of her is a big front. The other thing i liked that during the vote, johnathon and drea and maryann were hugging💙

We haven't seen anything to back up the notion that people are going to be reluctant to vote off a POC or even a black person. Even if that turns out to be the case, we'd have to wait till next week's episode. 

And again, guess what? No matter what people might want, it will be impossible to not vote out a person of color. There are only two more 100 percent white contestants left and 5 more people to vote off till final tribal council. They'll have to put on their big boy and girl buffs and vote off whoever they think will benefit their game the most, regardless of that person's race etc.

Jonathan's taking a hit because he talked over not just Drea but also Lindsay. It strikes me as more a potential sexism thing than a racism thing.

[millennium]

I see.  So Rocksroy couldn't have been a target because he's an arrogant, inflexible personality who turned people off from the first episode and had few allies ...

Drea couldn't have been a target because she has an idol and other advantages in her bag ...

Maryanne couldn't have been a target because she has an idol and is one of the most annoying players in recent memory ...

No, they were all targets because racism.

I'm really tired of this show trying to tell me what to think.

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by millennium

[Mediocre Gatsby]

4 hours ago, nlkm9 said:

4 hours ago, nlkm9 said:

 And for daring to speak back to her , johnathon is vilified. 

 

Jonathan isn't being "vilified" for talking back to Drea -- people dislike that he spoke down to both Lindsey and Drea by ignoring the substance of what they said and dismissively telling them that they were being aggressive and loud. Which neither one was. 

[SVNBob]

On 4/27/2022 at 10:28 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I kind of wish they had named the episode "The Misogynists Club," not only because it originated from a contestant (Jeff was the first one to bring up "A Game of Chicken) but also because it's more interesting. 

To be fair:

1. Most people don't know the episodes even have titles, let alone what they are.  (We're all exceptions because of the threads here.)  Every episode could be called "Purple Monkey Dishwasher" and very few people would even notice.
2. A title like "The Misogynists Club" probable wouldn't draw too many people in.  Like, you couldn't title a movie that, even if it was a clear satire.

 

19 hours ago, Haleth said:

(Honestly, it took Drea pointing out the obvious before I saw it, which I realize is a problem with me.) 

Same here.  Until that moment, I just saw two Survivor players, each voted onto the jury for understandable reasons.  Then once Drea vocalized it, I also saw the other truth.  And I recognize that I didn't see it before because I come from a place of white male experience and privilege.  So I see why I didn't see it before, and I do understand why they reacted as they did.

What I'm still upset about (beyond Jonathan not realizing he needed to shut the hell up) is that they still felt the need to play their idols in order to counteract any perception that they were playing the race card.  And I'm more upset that there's a non-zero set of viewers that are proving they were right to do so.

 

18 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

Not bothering trying to pull together all the quotes for this one...

There are multiple truths from last nights episode. 

Truth 1: Rocksroy was voted out because his social game sucked. We have seen him struggle socially all season long. He was bossy and on the outside from day one. He ended up allied with Drea and Romeo out of necessity not because Drea and Romeo really like him. Omar was clear that Rocksroy was not his ally because Rocksroy only approached him for this one particular alliance. Hai indicated that Rocksroy had not been talking to him much. Rocksroy did not approach Hai or Omar to talk and discuss a course of action but to dictate a course of action. Rocksroy was voted out because he was not a good Survivor player. He was voted out by 4 other people who happen to be minorities themselves. He was not voted out because he was black.

Truth 2: All the players bring their baggage into the game. For Drea and Maryann, that means that they bring all the times that they were looked down upon or treated poorly or knew people who were treated poorly because they were Black. They expected Romeo to go because of Romeo's behavior and because Romeo had been outside the larger alliance while Rocksroy was in that alliance. The shock of seeing Rocksroy there and not Romeo AND realizing that Chanelle was there caused that past baggage of poor, ie racist, treatment in the past to surface. Both Drea and Maryann said that they did not think that race was a factor in this particular game BUT that they were both staring at past history and patterns and that they did not want to fall prey to that. 

Two truths, well more then that but those are the two that people are most focused on. 

Neither truth is wrong or nullifies the other, they co-exist.

Well said. 

And this is the part of the point that lots of people are missing.  Drea and Maryanne are not fully aware of Truth #1.  I'd guess that they didn't think race was a factor in why Rocks was voted out.  For all they actually knew, he could have ironically failed at rocks.  But until they get back to camp and find out why Rocksroy was voted out and Romeo stayed as they were expecting, all they had to go on was just his presence...next to Chanelle.  And each thinking that the plan was that the other one was about to become Juror #3.

 

 

17 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I also think that when someone is complaining about racism they are always calling someone racist, because racism does not exist without a racist as perpetrator.  So Drea sitting there crying about all the racism she has suffered in her life is most definitely saying something bad about white people.  Who else caused it?  Are the Dreas and Maryannes  talking about some ethereal systemic spirit in the air that doesn't involve any individual white people? 

Yes they are.  It's called Systemic Racism.

[ProfCrash]

7 hours ago, millennium said:

I see.  So Rocksroy couldn't have been a target because he's an arrogant, inflexible personality who turned people off from the first episode and had few allies ...

Drea couldn't have been a target because she has an idol and other advantages in her bag ...

Maryanne couldn't have been a target because she has an idol and is one of the most annoying players in recent memory ...

No, they were all targets because racism.

I'm really tired of this show trying to tell me what to think.

 

No one said that. Maryann and Drea flat out said that they didn't think the votes where racist. Maryann didn't say at camp "We can't vote for Drea because it is racist." Exactly 0 people said that the votes themselves were racist. 

0 people on this site have said that the votes were racist. 

Maryann and Drea were reacting to seeing two votes in a row being Black people. For Drea, it was her ally and she was already worried about being a target. Seeing the two jury members were Black caused her to see the pattern that does exist in reality TV and in life in general, which is Black people being removed from the game and treated injustly. 

Drea and Maryann did not say that they thought that people were being treated injustly but that the weight of the moment and what she saw caused her to change her play in that moment. Maryann did the same thing. 

Both of them expected to see Romeo next to Chanelle not Rocksroy. They expected a target to have been voted out and an Ally to have been safe. That the Ally was Black added to their angst. 

[millennium]

7 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

 For Drea, it was her ally and she was already worried about being a target. Seeing the two jury members were Black caused her to see the pattern that does exist in reality TV and in life in general, which is Black people being removed from the game and treated injustly.

Drea and Rocksroy voted Chanelle onto the jury.

[ihartcoffee]

7 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

No one said that. Maryann and Drea flat out said that they didn't think the votes where racist. Maryann didn't say at camp "We can't vote for Drea because it is racist." Exactly 0 people said that the votes themselves were racist. 

0 people on this site have said that the votes were racist. 

Maryann and Drea were reacting to seeing two votes in a row being Black people. For Drea, it was her ally and she was already worried about being a target. Seeing the two jury members were Black caused her to see the pattern that does exist in reality TV and in life in general, which is Black people being removed from the game and treated injustly. 

Drea and Maryann did not say that they thought that people were being treated injustly but that the weight of the moment and what she saw caused her to change her play in that moment. Maryann did the same thing. 

Both of them expected to see Romeo next to Chanelle not Rocksroy. They expected a target to have been voted out and an Ally to have been safe. That the Ally was Black added to their angst. 

That just sounds like fake indignation too me.  If it wasn't racist,  why is Twitter blowing up with how racist white people are.  It's a game to win a million,  if this sort of manipulation becomes part of the game it's over.  Might as well end Survivor.  Drea acting all upset, she voted for Chanelle!  Fake fake fake

[millennium]

2 minutes ago, ihartcoffee said:

 Might as well end Survivor.

I don't see how Survivor survives if players have to fear insinuations of racism at Tribal Council and in front of the whole world because they voted somebody out.  

[ProfCrash]

11 minutes ago, ihartcoffee said:

That just sounds like fake indignation too me.  If it wasn't racist,  why is Twitter blowing up with how racist white people are.  It's a game to win a million,  if this sort of manipulation becomes part of the game it's over.  Might as well end Survivor.  Drea acting all upset, she voted for Chanelle!  Fake fake fake

Twitter is not known for holding nuanced conversations and this is a nuanced conversation, as many of the posts in this topic point to. And the interviews with both Rocksroy and Tori point to the nuances. Listen to Tori's interviews, she is the person who went home through all of this and she is ok with how it played out. She is disappointed with being voted out but understands what happened and why it happened. 

I wouldn't base any decision or thought on Twitter. 

[seacliffsal]

I really, really hope that they show the aftermath conversations at back at camp as it should provide a whole other set of insights and dynamics.  However, "new" Survivor hasn't really been showing us much of the after tribal conversations or camp life, so I doubt that we will see what happens once all remaining players are back after the vote-outs.

I feel like "new" Survivor doesn't show some of the most interesting and/or important conversations amongst the players as they have to show us all of the "gimmicks" and Jeff's direct to viewers narratives.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, seacliffsal said:

I really, really hope that they show the aftermath conversations at back at camp as it should provide a whole other set of insights and dynamics.  However, "new" Survivor hasn't really been showing us much of the after tribal conversations or camp life, so I doubt that we will see what happens once all remaining players are back after the vote-outs.

I feel like "new" Survivor doesn't show some of the most interesting and/or important conversations amongst the players as they have to show us all of the "gimmicks" and Jeff's direct to viewers narratives.

It seems like almost every episode this season has started with a night scene of after tribal conversations where they hash out the vote. This episode had Hai asking around after who voted for him even though he was sure it was Romeo. Previous episodes had Daniel trying to do damage control after the Jenny vote, Chanelle and Mike having words about her voting for him, and so on.

So I wouldn't be at all surprised to see some aftermath conversations about this one.

[Chicago Redshirt]

9 hours ago, millennium said:

I see.  So Rocksroy couldn't have been a target because he's an arrogant, inflexible personality who turned people off from the first episode and had few allies ...

Drea couldn't have been a target because she has an idol and other advantages in her bag ...

Maryanne couldn't have been a target because she has an idol and is one of the most annoying players in recent memory ...

No, they were all targets because racism.

I'm really tired of this show trying to tell me what to think.

 

Again, none of the actual players, nor the show, said or even suggested that the decisions that led to Rocksroy and Chanelle being booted was strictly or even primarily because of racist intent by the survivors. 

[peachmangosteen]

11 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I just felt like what was the point of Jonathan bringing this idea to Lindsey if he wasn't gonna listen to her feedback. Pitch the idea, why you think it will work, and maybe where it might backfire. After that, SHUT UP!!! and let her give feedback.

But Jonathan just wants the silly little women to do as he says and not question his genius!

4 hours ago, jhlipton said:

BTW, I think both Oz and Yao were on men's alliances but I don't recall any woman's alliance lasting more than one vote.

Oh man, you missed the Black Widow Brigade. Go watch Micronesia immediately!

[Birnam Wood]

Tori really went all god-botherer at the end, eh? I guess her chosen deity was screwing with her by letting her win the first two Immunity Challenges and THEN dropping her in the ocean.

[Chicago Redshirt]

12 minutes ago, cdnalor said:

An emotional breakdown and talk of a pattern seems like more than a suggestion to me.  It sounds like Drea is saying "I don't wanna sound racist, but..."  We know what comes after that.

A pattern of any discriminatory effect can be:

1. The result of intentional discrimination by the decisionmakers.

2. The result of subconscious discrimination by the decisionmakers.

3. An unfortunate coincidence that has nothing/little to do with either intentional or subconscious discrimination.

Drea and Maryanne explicitly said that they did not believe the vote-outs here to fall in category one. If you want to say that they are lying or fooling themselves, that is fine. 

If Drea and Maryanne explicitly disavowing the notion that they thought racism motivated the vote-outs and saying that they loved Jonathan and the other survivors isn't enough to convince people that they didn't believe that racism motivated the vote-outs, I don't know what will.

The way I perceived them, they were saying the situation falls into category 3. (Which is where I as a viewer put it, FWIW)

Something in 3 can nevertheless be triggering to people who have previously experienced either intentional and/or subconscious discrimination in other contexts.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt