S06.E03: Rock and Hard Place

[dabbrusc]

5 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I'd be shocked if Manuel did that. He seems quite willing to die rather than leave for Canada. Now, if family in Mexico was threatened, maybe that would move him. If Mike tells Manuel that the Salamancas killed his son? That might be interesting, but I can't see Mike doing it.

 

I agree that's in character for Manuel. If that happens Mike would shrug his shoulders and let it happen. He made his choice at that point, he had his chance to get out and be safe.

[Blakeston]

51 minutes ago, Gobi said:

The DA’s proposal is a Hobson’s choice for Jimmy.

He can’t admit that he knew who Lalo was. If he did, he would be admitting to perpetrating a fraud on the court (amongst other crimes) that would get him disbarred at the very least.

If he says he didn’t know and cooperates, he had better get used to living in the witness protection program because he’s signed his own death warrant.

His only option is to say he didn’t know but refuse to waive attorney client privilege. He cannot be made to waive it in this instance.

Further complicating things is that Jimmy referred to Lalo by his real name when speaking to those other attorneys, who almost certainly would be happy to throw him under the bus.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, BeatrixK said:

Predisposed Bias:  A High School Teacher, parent of a disabled child, Cancer patient, baby on the way - he comes in checking a lot of boxes we deem sympathetic on initial impression.  But Cranston is SO good he meshes the evil through that audience predisposition and BOOM...Why am I rooting for an asshole again?  lol

 

Damn...Banks is a masterclass in wordless acting!

 

Just speaking for myself, I never found Walt particularly sympathetic, but I rooted for him when he came up with a plan that got him out of trouble when he was pushed against a wall. I found I preferred that to Gus's master planning. Gus has a long plan against Walt in revenge for Walt protecting Jesse, and Walt kept himself alive in the end.

Mike, like many others, preferred to think that Walt just ruined everything because his pride wouldn't let him be second banana to Gus, but it was actually Gus who did that. Now that I think about it, it's a little bit like Chuck and Jimmy. 

That scene with Huell is really fantastic--so organic, yet so explicitly pointing to the real issues here. People acting out of grief and rage at the way things turned out and barely convincing anyone, even themselves, that they've got some higher motive.

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

Just speaking for myself, I never found Walt particularly sympathetic, but I rooted for him when he came up with a plan that got him out of trouble when he was pushed against a wall. I found I preferred that to Gus's master planning. Gus has a long plan against Walt in revenge for Walt protecting Jesse, and Walt kept himself alive in the end.

Mike, like many others, preferred to think that Walt just ruined everything because his pride wouldn't let him be second banana to Gus, but it was actually Gus who did that. Now that I think about it, it's a little bit like Chuck and Jimmy. 

That scene with Huell is really fantastic--so organic, yet so explicitly pointing to the real issues here. People acting out of grief and rage at the way things turned out and barely convincing anyone, even themselves, that they've got some higher motive.

Mike had good reason to hold Walt in contempt; Walt was an A-hole who was unwilling to be honest with himself or any other person. At the same time,one of the few times Mike wasn't honest with himself waa when he refused to see  that Walt's only sensible path was to kill Gus.

[sistermagpie]

Just now, Bannon said:

Mike had good reason to hold Walt in contempt; Walt was an A-hole who was unwilling to be honest with himself or any other person. At the same time,one of the few times Mike wasn't honest with himself waa when he refused to see  that Walt's only sensible path was to kill Gus.

Exactly. Walt was arrogant and was an asshole. This just wasn't a moment where those things were motivating him. He was basically asking why Walt didn't just let Gus kill him and let him, Jesse and Gus continue working together in peace, making money off his formula. Without the issue over Jesse, Gus and Walt actually might have been very good partners, since Walt was a total perfectionist about his product.

I was thinking about Kim's claims about protecting the little guys--I feel like she might come the closest to honesty saying that. I don't mean it's true, but more that I think she probably really does identify with little guys getting screwed, so it's easy to see everything through that lense.

[JudyObscure]

Right now I would love to see that old episode when Hector walks into Gus's restaurant just oozing evil in cartoon waves. Nacho is with Hector for the sole purpose of standing still, looking out over the seating area in such an  intimidating manner, all the customers get up and slink off.   Somehow Michael Mando manages to do that while still showing that he isn't comfortable scaring ordinary people that way. 

This was his big Emmy performance for sure. but he has shown great, subtle acting throughout the series.

Besides, that episode is one of my favorites just for the sweet kid behind the counter telling Hector Salamanca to put his cigarette out.

[nodorothyparker]

I've always said while I find Breaking Bad technically brilliant across the board, I honestly find this the better show of the two because I really struggled at times to connect emotionally with any of the characters in the former. Sometimes they just left me cold. BB is a master class in world building and cinematography and plotting and everything that makes it great, but this one made me empathize with and root for someone I already know is going to turn out despicable.

I think Kim believes what she says is her reasoning. Whether it's actually true or even partially true or not, who knows? But unlike Jimmy who is already having trouble convincing himself at points, she still believes what she tells herself.

[Penman61]

18 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

That scene with Huell is really fantastic--so organic, yet so explicitly pointing to the real issues here. People acting out of grief and rage at the way things turned out and barely convincing anyone, even themselves, that they've got some higher motive.

Grief and rage, absolutely. I’d also add into that mix ego, perceived lack of respect.

With Kim, I think we’ll find out more from her background, but with Jimmy we’ve seen how much Chuck’s lack of respect has been a factor in his slide into Saul.

[Gobi]

4 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

Grief and rage, absolutely. I’d also add into that mix ego, perceived lack of respect.

With Kim, I think we’ll find out more from her background, but with Jimmy we’ve seen how much Chuck’s lack of respect has been a factor in his slide into Saul.

One of the interesting questions the show presents is whether Jimmy could have broken good. If Chuck had taken Jimmy under his wing and mentored him, perhaps. Yet Kim, who should have been a good influence, was herself corrupted by Jimmy. Howard, in his own way, liked Jimmy and tried to help him, to no avail. Cliff Main failed, as well.

[Crashcourse]

Now that his stint has ended on BCS, I hope to see Michael Mando in some other projects.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

So, why doesn't Saul get to collect the $7 million cash bail?  The Mexican government over that area formally declared that dead body to be Lalo.  The State can not compel a dead man to appear.  So, the bail must be returned.  

Don't tell me that this would not be an obsession of Saul's.  He would think of any and every possible angle to make this happen.  He may choose that it isn't worth the compromise(s) he might could have to make, but it would be a major, major priority until he reached such a conclusion.

The parallels drawn to Christ's Passion were obvious to me as I watched it unfold.  I do believe it is quite possible that Ignacio managed a redemption before God. 

I took Nacho's momentary hesitation to shoot reflected a final urge to take out one of the wicked players before taking himself out.  The calculus in his mind was about how much this would potentially endanger his Papa.  Ultimately, he deemed it too risky and got out while the getting was good. 

ETA - I realize it was a Guzman who Jimmy helped free.  I am just saying Saul would look at any and all possible ways to claim the bond.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Lonesome Rhodes

[Cinnabon]

5 hours ago, Bannon said:

I see Nacho as a hugely more noble character than Jesse. Yes, they both screwed up terribly as young people, but of course Jesse did so from a far more privileged place. More importantly, when ultimately faced with the consequences of those choices, Nacho willingly sacrificed himself, to save those he loved. Jesse? He was out of the game, soon to be off to wherever vacuum repair took him, which meant that those he loved would be safe. Then, he realizes that Walt poisoned (ultimately non-fatally) young Brock, and consumed by the rage and damaged pride that causes so much carnage in the world created by these writers, Jesse decides to re-insert himself into The Game. That ultimately leads to Andrea being murdered, as Jesse looks on in horror. 

Nacho is seething with anger and hatred, too, but he doesn't lose sight of the fact that the priority is to keep those he loves from further harm.

 

 

5 hours ago, Bannon said:

Nacho was my Jesse for BCS.  I loved both of them and wanted them both to escape the nightmares they were caught in.  I didn't blame either of them for their initial bad choices because they were so young in the beginning

Michael Mando is 41, so Nacho wasn’t that young when he made his very bad choices. His dad’s honest business wasn’t flashy enough for him, and it led him to his death. Jesse I do agree was very young and had no idea what he was getting himself into.

[Cinnabon]

7 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Were I a smarter person, I would have realized during the episode that it was building up to the final scene.   In some ways I am fortunate not to be that smart, as I got to experience watching it "unspoiled".    

 

Me, too. I was so relieved when he was finally back safe in the warehouse with Mike. I didn’t realize right away that he was only safe for a couple hours longer.

[Cinnabon]

3 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

"You wanna know who really knows Jimmy? ...Chuck." I'll just keep repeating this mantra as we slide down Jacob's Ladder with these two miscreants. We only have Mike to root for; damn you Walt!

Mike is a stone cold killer who willingly got into this game. I’m disappointed that once again, I’m noticing (not just you, specifically) a lot more judgment and disdain for the female characters than for the male ones, who are far and away the most amoral and destructive. I’m referring to Kim and even Stacy (Mike’s DIL) here, and Marie and Skylar in BB. I remember so much misogyny, hate and contempt being flung at Skylar from the start, just for being the more dominant one in her marriage much of the time. Meanwhile, Walt reveals himself to be an amoral, narcissistic drug dealer and killer, and many still disliked Skylar more. Ditto for Marie’s shoplifting problem - sure, shoplifting is wrong, but it’s nothing compared to what most of the others in the show were doing. I hate to see the same judgments happening here now with Kim. She’s definitely getting caught up with her revenge fantasies about Howard, but I do think at least part of her motivation is to get the Sandpiper settlement done, so she and Jimmy can get their share of the money and she can set up a small office and be able to continue her pro bono work. It’s not right and Howard doesn’t deserve it, but it’s minor compared to the men who have devoted themselves to making and dealing drugs that ruin people’s lives. And in doing so, ruthlessly murder anyone who gets in their way. 

[Cinnabon]

3 hours ago, Bannon said:

Walt was such an A-hole, practically from the very beginning. I could never understand how so so many fans viewed him so sympathetically. Hey, A-holes get cancer, too!

Exactly! This ties in to what I just wrote. Walt was clearly a narcissistic, mean spirited asshole that had no compunction about lying to his wife from day 1. From there, he became a killer who took many lives and put the lives of his family in grave danger. But it was shocking to me how many still sided with him over Skylar, who had her flaws but wasn’t a murderous sociopath. 

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

So, why doesn't Saul get to collect the $7 million cash bail?  The Mexican government over that area formally declared that dead body to be Lalo.  The State can not compel a dead man to appear.  So, the bail must be returned.  

Don't tell me that this would not be an obsession of Saul's.  He would think of any and every possible angle to make this happen.  He may choose that it isn't worth the compromise(s) he might could have to make, but it would be a major, major priority until he reached such a conclusion.

The parallels drawn to Christ's Passion were obvious to me as I watched it unfold.  I do believe it is quite possible that Ignacio managed a redemption before God. 

I took Nacho's momentary hesitation to shoot reflected a final urge to take out one of the wicked players before taking himself out.  The calculus in his mind was about how much this would potentially endanger his Papa.  Ultimately, he deemed it too risky and got out while the getting was good. 

ETA - I realize it was a Guzman who Jimmy helped free.  I am just saying Saul would look at any and all possible ways to claim the bond.

The govt. quite likely is going to demand DNA confirmation before they turn over 7 million to Saul, and any court will likely agree

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Exactly! This ties in to what I just wrote. Walt was clearly a narcissistic, mean spirited asshole that had no compunction about lying to his wife from day 1. From there, he became a killer who took many lives and put the lives of his family in grave danger. But it was shocking to me how many still sided with him over Skylar, who had her flaws but wasn’t a murderous sociopath. 

Yeah, I always thought that was really weird. Kim's very flawed, but compared to others, as of yet, she's preferable.

[Cinnabon]

6 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Yeah, I always thought that was really weird. Kim's very flawed, but compared to others, as of yet, she's preferable.

Do you remember any of the rabid, abject seething contempt for Skylar (and sometimes Marie)? I had assumed that misogynistic incels represented only a miniscule number of men in our society, but the rage and hatred they expressed was incredibly disturbing. I think Anna Gunn actually wrote an article about it.

[Bannon]

13 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Exactly! This ties in to what I just wrote. Walt was clearly a narcissistic, mean spirited asshole that had no compunction about lying to his wife from day 1. From there, he became a killer who took many lives and put the lives of his family in grave danger. But it was shocking to me how many still sided with him over Skylar, who had her flaws but wasn’t a murderous sociopath. 

I have to say that as bad a human being Walt was, I don't think he was sociopathic at all. Sociopaths really are uninteresting, because they have no inner conflict. "Sociopath" is not a synonym for "awful human being" and Walt was awful, but was not without inner conflict.

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

So, why doesn't Saul get to collect the $7 million cash bail?  The Mexican government over that area formally declared that dead body to be Lalo.  The State can not compel a dead man to appear.  So, the bail must be returned

Saul is Lalo's criminal lawyer, but so far as I know, Saul isn't the executor of Lalo's estate or an attorney acting on behalf of that executor, so I don't see why the authorities would turnover the money to Saul.

That's even assuming that Lalo's didn't forfeit the bail money by traveling to Mexico.

[peeayebee]

I'm not sure if States (like New Mexico, e.g.) would/can have legal dealings with foreign govts, so I'll just say the US...

What is the procedure for the Mexican govt to let the US govt know that Lalo is dead? Would the US first contact Mexico to see if Lalo had fled there? And then would Mexican authorities inform them that Lalo is dead?

Since Saul in BB believes Lalo to be alive, I wonder if Saul ever learns that he's been declared dead. Oh what am I saying. There are a bunch of eps left. I'm sure that Saul learns he's dead and then learns that he's really alive. 

Anyway, I'm still curious how other countries would know to notify the US about criminal deaths.

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Do you remember any of the rabid, abject seething contempt for Skylar (and sometimes Marie)? I had assumed that misogynistic incels represented only a miniscule number of men in our society, but the rage and hatred they expressed was incredibly disturbing. I think Anna Gunn actually wrote an article about it.

Yeah, like I said, it was really weird, and I have been disappointed to see some of that directed at the character of Kim.

2 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Saul is Lalo's criminal lawyer, but so far as I know, Saul isn't the executor of Lalo's estate or an attorney acting on behalf of that executor, so I don't see why the authorities would turnover the money to Saul.

That's even assuming that Lalo's didn't forfeit the bail money by traveling to Mexico.

I assumed the meaning was turned over to Jimmy, representing whomever claimed it was their money, or the executor of Lalo's estate. Like I said, however, DNA proof of death would be demanded.

[Cinnabon]

13 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I have to say that as bad a human being Walt was, I don't think he was sociopathic at all. Sociopaths really are uninteresting, because they have no inner conflict. "Sociopath" is not a synonym for "awful human being" and Walt was awful, but was not without inner conflict.

He was heading in that direction, but I get your point. Gus, Hector and other cartel members are the true sociopaths.

[Gobi]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

Since Saul in BB believes Lalo to be alive, I wonder if Saul ever learns that he's been declared dead. Oh what am I saying. There are a bunch of eps left. I'm sure that Saul learns he's dead and then learns that he's really alive. 

I don’t think it’s all that clear whether Saul thinks Lalo is alive in BB. All he says is “Did Lalo send you?” While that can imply he thinks Lalo is alive, it could also be that he thinks Lalo is dead but sent someone after him before he died. As with his statement about Ignacio, the meaning is ambiguous.

Those lines were throwaways, written long before there was any thought of BCS. Thus, there was no follow up such as “Let me talk to Lalo, I can explain everything.” That left Gilligan and crew a lot of wiggle room, even if it wasn’t deliberate.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Gobi

[Eulipian 5k]

43 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Yeah, like I said, it was really weird, and I have been disappointed to see some of that directed at the character of Kim.

The Skylar/Anna Gunn hate was, and still is, bizarre. While Kim is by no means a Bonnie to anyone's Clyde, she made a point to Howard that blaming any of her actions on Jimmy would be demeaning and insulting. So, give her the agency that she put herself on the defense team of the murderous cartel boss, and proposed marriage to protect such criminal conspiracies. She's not a murderer, and her motivations are no way as bad as Jimmy's but, a white collar criminal is still a criminal. She's on the Betsy Kettleman side of the ledger, lol.

[Penman61]

I indeed remember that misogyny flung at Skyler/Anna, and maybe I just don't consume the right media, but I haven't seen literally anything like that re Kim/Rhea, like, at all.

(I also fully accept that one dynamic of culture-wide bigotry is that it's so pervasive and insidious you don't know you're soaking in it...so no need to give examples, and I will now keep an eye out.) 

[PeterPirate]

7 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

I indeed remember that misogyny flung at Skyler/Anna, and maybe I just don't consume the right media, but I haven't seen literally anything like that re Kim/Rhea, like, at all.

(I also fully accept that one dynamic of culture-wide bigotry is that it's so pervasive and insidious you don't know you're soaking in it...so no need to give examples, and I will now keep an eye out.) 

Back in the days of this site's predecessor, Television Without Pity, it was not allowed to comment on someone else's post--the so-called "no boards on boards" policy.  Posts that used "misogyny" or "misogynistic" were particularly susceptible to being snipped or deleted.  So it was easy for bullies to post a lot of negativity with impunity.  I didn't watch BB but I witnessed the same type of behavior directed at Lori Grimes of The Walking Dead.   After TWoP went down and was resurrected as PreviouslyTV, the "no boards on boards" policy was rescinded, and things are much better these days.  

Edited April 26, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

He was heading in that direction, but I get your point. Gus, Hector and other cartel members are the true sociopaths.

Hector and Lalo I would agree are likely sociopaths. I'm not sure about Gus. He definitely might be, and I definitely think it's likely, when I think of a BB episode like Box Cutter. There are moments, however, when I could imagine him feeling remorse, like perhaps for whatever role he might have had in leading his partner into meeting Eladio, and thus to his murder. People don't develop into scociopathy as adults, they lack the normal social/ emotional capacities from childhood. Then again, maybe I'm imagining this because I want Gus to be interesting. He certainly has displayed no inner  conflict on screen.

[Colorado David]

5 hours ago, BeatrixK said:

Damn...Banks is a masterclass in wordless acting!

 

Banks and Mark Margolis (Hector). Man, such great "what the hell is all this for" feelings from Banks, and the sheer venom coming from Hector at Nacho. Both do so much with so little or no dialogue. Brilliant.

[LittleIggy]

5 hours ago, Bannon said:

Walt was such an A-hole, practically from the very beginning. I could never understand how so so many fans viewed him so sympathetically. Hey, A-holes get cancer, too!

Bryan Cranston is such a great actor that’s how.

[Colorado David]

any actor who can be villainous and YET have us root for them is great in my book.  It plays on the 'we all have our bad side, much that we hate to admit it' theme. 

[Dev F]

21 hours ago, peeayebee said:

Yeah, Hector will want more revenge than just pumping a bunch of bullets into Nacho's corpse. I feel sure that Mike will be able to protect Manuel, though I don't know how. But these writers, man, they will find a way.

Yeah, I can see ambiguity as to how Manuel will get out of this, but this episode seemed pretty clear about the fact that Nacho made a noble and generous sacrifice in going out the way he did. In a season that's been about people building elaborate schemes that are doomed to come crashing down like Kaylee's marble tower or Jo's domino setup, it must mean something that Nacho's death nurtured a flower to grow instead of prompting a man-made structure to fall.

So it seemed clear to me that we're not meant to think that as a result Nacho's father is doomed. By opting out of the choice between a rock and a hard place, I have to believe that Nacho has somehow saved his dad. Maybe it's simply by focusing Hector's fury on him so he'll forget about Manuel, or maybe it'll be by inspiring Gus to finally show some compassion for the underling who went out like his beloved Max.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Dev F

[PeterPirate]

8 hours ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

For anyone who didn't recognize it and cares, Howard's driving music (which we kept getting during the valet scam) was the final movement of Beethoven's Piano Concerto No. 5 ("Emperor"). A pet peeve of mine is that when characters in TV shows and movies listen to classical music, while it's usually a great piece, it's always so "obvious." But I didn't mind here. It fits Howard, on top of the world. And of course, the cutting of that sequence was brilliant. 

Thanks for that.  Given the jumps in the music as Tony was driving, I wondered just how long it took him to park the Namastemobile.  

As it turns out, that particular composition is over 40 minutes long, and I don't have the patience to listen through the whole thing to find the exact musical cues.  (It would be a different matter if it was either Beethoven's 5th or 9th symphonies.)

But hey, if anyone wants to put in the work, here you go.

 

 

 

[MrWhyt]

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

I assumed the meaning was turned over to Jimmy, representing whomever claimed it was their money, or the executor of Lalo's estate. Like I said, however, DNA proof of death would be demanded.

I'm sure leaving the country would be a violation of bail conditions, and thus forfeiting the bail.

[Razzberry]

The hatred directed toward Skyler in BB was disturbing and bizarre, but that has nothing to do with my disappointment on seeing Kim going to the dark side.

[Gobi]

3 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

The hatred directed toward Skyler in BB was disturbing and bizarre, but that has nothing to do with my disappointment on seeing Kim going to the dark side.

I’m still hoping that Kim backs out, realizing that staying with Saul leads her down the wrong path. 

[sistermagpie]

Just now, Gobi said:

I’m still hoping that Kim backs out, realizing that staying with Saul leads her down the wrong path. 

If Kim backs out of the Howard thing it looks at this point like Saul will happily join her since he's only doing it for her. 

[KittyQ]

21 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

I’m still not sure what Mike was supposed to do with his sniper rifle. Didn’t he say something like “go on…do it”? What was he wanting Nacho to do? 

I think Mike's original plan with Nacho was that Nacho would confess to the Salamancas, then immediately get up and start running away. The assumption was that one of the bodyguards would shoot him at that point, and if they botched it up, Mike would shoot Nacho so he wouldn't be recaptured and maybe tortured. 

When Nacho suddenly popped up and grabbed Bolsa, it seemed to me that Mike might have been hoping he would shoot Bolsa (or possibly even Hector?) and then run, but maybe Mike was just thinking that Nacho could still try just making a run for it and the original plan would play out. Either way, it turns out that Nacho had his own plan for his demise. 

[Chatty Cake]

 I lost interest for the most part in Saul and Kim’s antics awhile back but waited two years to see what happened to Nacho. Was hoping he made it through this season but knew it was unlikely.

[Ellaria]

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

So it seemed clear to me that we're not meant to think that as a result Nacho's father is doomed. By opting out of the choice between a rock and a hard place, I have to believe that Nacho has somehow saved his dad. Maybe it's simply by focusing Hector's fury on him so he'll forget about Manuel, or maybe it'll be by inspiring Gus to finally show some compassion for the underling who went out like his beloved Max.

Agree completely. Nacho’s choice was to save his dad. I think - I hope - that we are done with Manuel. While Hector, Gus and the rest are a vindictive bunch, they have much bigger problems right now.

10 hours ago, Bannon said:

I see Nacho as a hugely more noble character than Jesse. Yes, they both screwed up terribly as young people, but of course Jesse did so from a far more privileged place. More importantly, when ultimately faced with the consequences of those choices, Nacho willingly sacrificed himself, to save those he loved…

…Nacho is seething with anger and hatred, too, but he doesn't lose sight of the fact that the priority is to keep those he loves from further harm.

“Noble” is a wonderful way to describe Nacho and a credit to MM’s performance.

9 hours ago, Starchild said:

I'm starting to think that it's Kim that gives Jimmy that final push into full-fledged villainy. Once more betrayed by the person he loves most in the world. How tragic is that? 

I think so, too. She will betray him and that completely drives him to Saul. In Jimmy’s eyes, Kim keeps him tethered to decency. Sure - they’ve pulled their scams and manipulated people to get what they wanted. Neither of them are saints. IMO, Jimmy will not cross certain lines if he thinks it will hurt Kim.

I no longer believe that Kim currently feels the same way. She snarled when she gave him the choice of cartel lawyer or rat. She was shrouded in darkness. She is on a different path now.

3 hours ago, Gobi said:

I don’t think it’s all that clear whether Saul thinks Lalo is alive in BB. All he says is “Did Lalo send you?” While that can imply he thinks Lalo is alive, it could also be that he thinks Lalo is dead but sent someone after him before he died. As with his statement about Ignacio, the meaning is ambiguous.

Those lines were throwaways, written long before there was any thought of BCS. Thus, there was no follow up such as “Let me talk to Lalo, I can explain everything.” That left Gilligan and crew a lot of wiggle room, even if it wasn’t deliberate.

Yes, those lines were throwaways. However, I don’t think that they are ambiguous. I think that we should not spend time trying to read into them. As stated, Gilligan knows what he wrote and knows that we are trying to interpret it. They will provide an explanation.

[Bannon]

18 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Agree completely. Nacho’s choice was to save his dad. I think - I hope - that we are done with Manuel. While Hector, Gus and the rest are a vindictive bunch, they have much bigger problems right now.

“Noble” is a wonderful way to describe Nacho and a credit to MM’s performance.

I think so, too. She will betray him and that completely drives him to Saul. In Jimmy’s eyes, Kim keeps him tethered to decency. Sure - they’ve pulled their scams and manipulated people to get what they wanted. Neither of them are saints. IMO, Jimmy will not cross certain lines if he thinks it will hurt Kim.

I no longer believe that Kim currently feels the same way. She snarled when she gave him the choice of cartel lawyer or rat. She was shrouded in darkness. She is on a different path now.

Yes, those lines were throwaways. However, I don’t think that they are ambiguous. I think that we should not spend time trying to read into them. As stated, Gilligan knows what he wrote and knows that we are trying to interpret it. They will provide an explanation.

Yeah, there's nothing in it for the Salamancas to make a move on Manuel, other than simple vengeance on somebody who is already dead. That's not as interesting as the Salamancas trying to win their war with Gus, and that holds many possibilities.

[Gobi]

27 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Yes, those lines were throwaways. However, I don’t think that they are ambiguous. I think that we should not spend time trying to read into them. As stated, Gilligan knows what he wrote and knows that we are trying to interpret it. They will provide an explanation.

As regards whether Saul thinks Lalo and Nacho are alive or dead, the lines are ambiguous or, better said, neutral. He didn’t say, for example, “I know Lalo is alive, did he send you?” or “It wasn’t me, it was the dead guy, Ignacio.” Dead or alive didn’t matter in BB, which became a blessing in BCS as it gave the freedom to do whatever TPTB wanted to do with the characters without being constrained by a predetermined fate. 

Edited April 27, 2022 by Gobi

[Simon Boccanegra]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

Thanks for that.  Given the jumps in the music as Tony was driving, I wondered just how long it took him to park the Namastemobile.  

As it turns out, that particular composition is over 40 minutes long, and I don't have the patience to listen through the whole thing to find the exact musical cues.  (It would be a different matter if it was either Beethoven's 5th or 9th symphonies.)

But hey, if anyone wants to put in the work, here you go.

 

I do like a challenge. 

The concerto itself is over 40 minutes long, but it's in three movements, and all of the music we heard was from the third and final one (30:03 on Zimerman/Bernstein above). 

When Howard is greeting Tony, the finale is just getting underway. The orchestra is making its first statement of the big main theme, around 30:55 on Z/B. 

There are two time lapses, as you note, while Tony drives. But he’s only driving for a couple minutes. The first lapse only takes us to the pianist’s first statement of the movement’s secondary theme (31:43 on Z/B). I’m not sure about an exact spot for the second lapse, but we're within the pianist’s long solo (maybe the vicinity of 32:44).

When Huell is saying “Let’s go, yo,” and there's the suspense with Tony going back down the stairs, the pianist is playing a tremolo with light orchestral accompaniment (36:13 on Z/B). The pianist then launches into the movement's main theme again, and then the orchestra comes back in full force.

Anyway, it gets across that it’s a fast job. And maybe we’re supposed to connect Howard’s solicitousness with Tony about his night school, that kind of patronizing “Go get ‘em, tiger!” attitude, with the way he was with Jimmy in his mail-room days.

[scenario]

5 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Exactly! This ties in to what I just wrote. Walt was clearly a narcissistic, mean spirited asshole that had no compunction about lying to his wife from day 1. From there, he became a killer who took many lives and put the lives of his family in grave danger. But it was shocking to me how many still sided with him over Skylar, who had her flaws but wasn’t a murderous sociopath. 

I liked Walt and Skyler from the beginning. My head canon is that Walt and Skyler fell in love and got married. Skyler's dream was the husband and children and house with the picket fence which she got. Walt had no idea what he wanted so he followed Skyler's dream. He hated it and that turned him bitter and angry but he still loved Skyler so he went along because he didn't think he had any other alternative. She loved her life and couldn't understand why he's acting like he is when they've got everything they'd ever wanted. 

Walt and Skyler loved each other but were slowly driving each other crazy. Then Walt slowly starts Breaking Bad and feels alive while Skyler keeps trying to hold onto the dream. I liked both characters, even though Walt was a jerk.

It's Jesse I couldn't stand. He spent the whole time whining. Eventually he was trapped and couldn't escape but not at first. 

I also like Kim and Jimmy. They clearly love each other but they are following each other into the path of destruction. Neither is an innocent in their relationship. 

[scenario]

That was an intense episode. I knew that Nacho was going to die when he called his father. He was clearly saying goodbye. But the end was still jaw dropping.

The Salamancas are based in Mexico and Gus in the U.S. If Nacho's dad is killed its more likely to blow back on Gus than on the Salamancas. He has more to lose and nothing to gain if the Salamancas go on a killing spree starting with Nacho's dad. 

That's the tact Gus might take. No more killing of outsiders. There's too much heat on right now. 

[qtpye]

On 4/25/2022 at 10:10 PM, BeatrixK said:

I am going to need so very many moments.

 

Holy Shit was that episode brilliant.  The tension and the slow dreadful builf...then...NOT WHAT WE WERE EXPECTING.

So this is the Better Call Saul 'Ozymandius'.  God that whole Nacho unleash, go for broke, my fucks done gone and ain't coming back 'I PUT YOU IN THAT CHAIR'....I will storm the Emmy people if this episode doesn't win for writing...at the very least (The open...then the end...and 'OH SHIIIITTTTT')

 

On 4/25/2022 at 10:14 PM, Melonie77 said:

It's too early in the season to lose Nacho. 😢

 

On 4/25/2022 at 10:33 PM, nodorothyparker said:

That was damn fine TV. Brutal but damn good.

It felt pretty obvious as the episode wore on that Nacho surviving this was going to be a tall order. The way his voice cracked in asking Mike "So when he puts me down?" was gutting. But he found a way that if it had to happen at least he was going out cleanly and as much as possible on his own terms. And to lay that glorious smackdown on Hector to let him know that "I put you in that chair" before he went.

A lesser writer would have left this death for the penultimate episode and we would see Nacho escaping all pursuers like Harry Houdini.

Nacho dying so soon was masterful storytelling.

13 hours ago, Bannon said:

I see Nacho as a hugely more noble character than Jesse. Yes, they both screwed up terribly as young people, but of course Jesse did so from a far more privileged place. More importantly, when ultimately faced with the consequences of those choices, Nacho willingly sacrificed himself, to save those he loved. Jesse? He was out of the game, soon to be off to wherever vacuum repair took him, which meant that those he loved would be safe. Then, he realizes that Walt poisoned (ultimately non-fatally) young Brock, and consumed by the rage and damaged pride that causes so much carnage in the world created by these writers, Jesse decides to re-insert himself into The Game. That ultimately leads to Andrea being murdered, as Jesse looks on in horror. 

Nacho is seething with anger and hatred, too, but he doesn't lose sight of the fact that the priority is to keep those he loves from further harm.

I liked Nacho and the actor that played him did a brilliant job of making him sympathetic.

However, Nacho's father would never have been in any danger if Nacho had not made the stupid choices that he made.

Nacho's family might not have been as affluent and WASPish as Jessie's family but I saw a hard-working businessman who provided quite well for his family. There was no reason for Nacho to turn to the dark side beyond greed and yes, he is a little too old to have the excuse of "youth".

His family could still be in trouble particularly now that Hector and the shiny suit twins know that he put Hector in that chair.

His death was heartbreaking because he could have done so much more with his life and it might have not been enough to protect his father.

8 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Grief and rage, absolutely. I’d also add into that mix ego, perceived lack of respect.

With Kim, I think we’ll find out more from her background, but with Jimmy we’ve seen how much Chuck’s lack of respect has been a factor in his slide into Saul.

 

1 hour ago, scenario said:

I liked Walt and Skyler from the beginning. My head canon is that Walt and Skyler fell in love and got married. Skyler's dream was the husband and children and house with the picket fence which she got. Walt had no idea what he wanted so he followed Skyler's dream. He hated it and that turned him bitter and angry but he still loved Skyler so he went along because he didn't think he had any other alternative. She loved her life and couldn't understand why he's acting like he is when they've got everything they'd ever wanted. 

Walt and Skyler loved each other but were slowly driving each other crazy. Then Walt slowly starts Breaking Bad and feels alive while Skyler keeps trying to hold onto the dream. I liked both characters, even though Walt was a jerk.

It's Jesse I couldn't stand. He spent the whole time whining. Eventually he was trapped and couldn't escape but not at first. 

I also like Kim and Jimmy. They clearly love each other but they are following each other into the path of destruction. Neither is an innocent in their relationship. 

I always retconned that Skylar and Walt thought that they were going to be much more successful than they actually were. Walt figured that he would be a very well-paid scientist and Skylar thought she would be a successful novelist. They never imagined that they would barely be able to afford their starter home. They never thought that she would be a failed novelist that sells crap on E-bay and he would peak as a high school teacher.

I also retconned that Walt zoned out after a certain point causing Skylar to have to take the lead in family matters.

3 hours ago, Razzberry said:

The hatred directed toward Skyler in BB was disturbing and bizarre, but that has nothing to do with my disappointment on seeing Kim going to the dark side.

I used to love Kim.

She reminded me a lot of myself. I was a corporate lawyer that lost all my joy in the profession and went on to more satisfying things. I also come from a humble background.

I usually think Gilligan is a genius but I am still confused as to why the Hell Kim is so hellbent on destroying Howard?

Yes, he could be a shitty manager (doc review) but HHM put her through law school and forgave her debt when she went on to a rival firm. I was fully on board with her leaving HHM but this is too much

I think Gilligan is an amazing writer but I really still do not understand what is going on with her.

I guess grief and anger are driving her but she is thinking that she is "helping the little guy"?

I also think that Jimmy and Kim like the cons because they enjoy being the smartest people in the room. This is ego, which is usually the kiss of death in Gilligan's world (I so wanted to type Gilligan's Island).

Edited April 27, 2022 by qtpye

[Penman61]

^ I agree that Kim’s motivations (unlike Jimmy’s) have not been sufficiently shown yet. We’ve gotten one childhood flashback showing an alcoholic undependable mom and a few brief sentences in a job interview about getting out of a small town—and I think that’s it? (Please correct me.)

But I have high confidence that, with 10 eps to go, TPTB will definitely fill us in more on Kim. :)

Edited April 27, 2022 by Penman61

[scenario]

IMO the Kim we are seeing now is the real Kim. She's always been there but was forcing herself to stay on the straight and narrow for years. Jimmy and Kim saw that in each other and that's one of the things that attracted them.  They slowly, step by step egged each other on. 

The way Kim said A Rat tells me she has personal experience with it. Either she was the Rat and hates herself for it. Or someone ratted her out and she's on the run because of it. 

 

[sistermagpie]

25 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I always retconned that Skylar and Walt thought that they were going to be much more successful than they actually were. Walt figured that he would be a very well-paid scientist and Skylar thought she would be a successful novelist. They never imagined that they would barely be able to afford their starter home. They never thought that she would be a failed novelist that sells crap on E-bay and he would peak as a high school teacher.

I also retconned that Walt zoned out after a certain point causing Skylar to have to take the lead in family matters.

Isn't this basically canon? Walt absolutely thought he was going to be really successful. That's why they called it a starter house. And failure made Walt give up and disappear.

[Bannon]

25 minutes ago, qtpye said:

 

 

A lesser writer would have left this death for the penultimate episode and we would see Nacho escaping all pursuers like Harry Houdini.

Nacho dying so soon was masterful storytelling.

I liked Nacho and the actor that played him did a brilliant job of making him sympathetic.

However, Nacho's father would never have been in any danger if Nacho had not made the stupid choices that he made.

Nacho's family might not have been as affluent and WASPish as Jessie's family but I saw a hard-working businessman who provided quite well for his family. There was no reason for Nacho to turn to the dark side beyond greed and yes, he is a little too old to have the excuse of "youth".

His family could still be in trouble particularly now that Hector and the shiny suit twins know that he put Hector in that chair.

His death was heartbreaking because he could have done so much more with his life and it might have not been enough to protect his father.

 

I always retconned that Skylar and Walt thought that they were going to be much more successful than they actually were. Walt figured that he would be a very well-paid scientist and Skylar thought she would be a successful novelist. They never imagined that they would barely be able to afford their starter home. They never thought that she would be a failed novelist that sells crap on E-bay and he would peak as a high school teacher.

I also retconned that Walt zoned out after a certain point causing Skylar to have to take the lead in family matters.

I used to love Kim.

She reminded me a lot of myself. I was a corporate lawyer that lost all my joy in the profession and went on to more satisfying things. I also come from a humble background.

I usually think Gilligan is a genius but I am still confused as to why the Hell Kim is so hellbent on destroying Howard?

Yes, he could be a shitty manager (doc review) but HHM put her through law school and forgave her debt when she went on to a rival firm. I was fully on board with her leaving HHM but this is too much

I think Gilligan is an amazing writer but I really still do not understand what is going on with her.

I guess grief and anger are driving her but she is thinking that she is "helping the little guy"?

I also think that Jimmy and Kim like the cons because they enjoy being the smartest people in the room. This is ego, which is usually the kiss of death in Gilligan's world (I so wanted to type Gilligan's Island).

Nobility does not grow from lacking flaws, or even lacking terrible flaws. It comes from being willing to sacrifice that which you value, without prospect of personal gain, for other people. Yes, Nacho was extremely flawed. He grew to recognize that, and in the end, he willingly sacrificed his life for his father. That's noble. Extremely so.

19 minutes ago, scenario said:

IMO the Kim we are seeing now is the real Kim. She's always been there but was forcing herself to stay on the straight and narrow for years. Jimmy and Kim saw that in each other and that's one of the things that attracted them.  They slowly, step by step egged each other on. 

The way Kim said A Rat tells me she has personal experience with it. Either she was the Rat and hates herself for it. Or someone ratted her out and she's on the run because of it. 

 

You may be entirely correct.