S06.E09: The Hill

[pennben]

Not meant to be a negative spin to Toby; meant to countenance the notion that he will just be ‘giving’ her money that has been stated elsewhere above as though it is not an obligation of his. Also, just a note that higher earning women are also likely to have to pay alimony to their ex-husbands, it’s not just ex-wives who receive alimony. 

Edited March 27, 2022 by pennben

[Ohiopirate02]

23 minutes ago, mansonlamps said:

I didn't see it as a big gesture as much as what every single person I've ever visited in a city I've never been to planned in advance trying to show me a good time.   Especially in a city as iconic as SF.

This is a MMV thing.  I personally would hate something like what Toby originally planned--a day scheduled down to the minute.  I prefer having a small list of activities built to allow for wandering and the ability to stop and investigate whatever I happen to stumble upon.   And I got the impression this is what Kate wanted as well.  Kate did want to explore SF, and Toby was still able to guide her to the big stuff he wanted like the bridge and the house.  

[CdrJanny]

1 hour ago, pennben said:

Toby will owe (not give) child support & alimony (at least, insofar as alimony until she remarriage). 

Not necessarily.  She would not be a displaced housewife who significantly contributed to her husband's career, and it would be a very short-lived marriage.  Kate won't even be eligible for spousal Social Security benefits.  Alimony is far from a given these days.

[Rootbeer]

18 minutes ago, pennben said:

Not meant to be a negative spin to Toby; meant to countenance the notion that he will just be ‘giving’ her money that has been stated elsewhere above as though it is not an obligation of his. Also, just a note that higher earning women are also likely to have to pay alimony to their ex-husbands, it’s not just ex-wives who receive alimony. 

Asked a divorce lawyer friend; he said that, typically, in the case of a marriage that lasted 10 years or less, the spouse with the lower income could expect to receive alimony for about half the duration of the marriage.  Toby and Kate have been married around 4 years, I think, so, if she gets alimony, it's going to be for about 2 years. The idea is to keep them both at the same general standard of living for a transitional period.   He also said that the fact they both live in California where the cost of living is very high will factor into it, but maybe not in Kate's favor since Toby has essentially provided 100% of their income during the marriage and she could have worked but chose not to for most of it.  I would expect it was Toby who paid her tuition when she returned to college since Kate had no income; had she worked to put him through school, she'd have a better case for support.  As it is, her marriage enabled her to obtain a college degree which presumably makes her more employable than before.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Rootbeer

[ams1001]

55 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

Maybe this is why she seemingly gets together with Mean Jerk and marries him so fast; she needs someone to cover her expenses.

Is it really fast, though? She's marrying him five years in the future. Say they divorce within the next year, there's still ~four years before they're getting married. She could be single for a couple years and date MeanJerk for a couple years before they get married; I don't think that's an unreasonable time frame.

[GeorgiaRai]

Besides brunch & dinner, Toby's plans for the day were an art gallery & a stop by the office party.  That doesn't seem overwhelming or overly structured to me.  But even so, as soon as Kate objected, he dropped it; he literally tossed aside the guidebook and said he just wanted to be with her.  I can't find fault in anything he did here - he was thoughtful in his planning, tried to anticipate what she would like, and was immediately flexible when she objected.

For the whole episode, the only thing I didn't like about Toby was his ultimatum toward the end.  Oh, and leaving her alone at the party.  As an introvert, that is my worst nightmare; mingling gives me hives.

Edited March 27, 2022 by GeorgiaRai

[kili]

I thought the show did a good job of showing how two people can just grow apart. I don't think that they were trying to tell us there was a good guy or a bad guy, just different people. 

It makes sense. When they first met, Toby was dealing with the collapse of his marriage and deeply unhappy with his job. Kate was in a holding pattern from her father's death and still watching football with his ashes. They met over coffee at a therapy group and snarking about Madison. For a time, they gave each other a safe place to heal and grow. They just grew into different people.

Kate says that she misses the Old Toby, but she doesn't actually miss all of the Old Toby. She missed the Toby that couldn't wait to see her and enjoyed just snuggling in bed with her. She positively glowed when talking to that Toby. She did not miss the Old Toby who made mean jokes and clowned around - she got cross with him and told him to knock it off. Kate wants to laugh with Toby, but doesn't want to go to the galleries in San Francisco to mock the artists.  She just wants to laugh while enjoying riding the street cars and singing the Rice-O-Roni jingle.

New Toby is enjoying doing work that seems valued. People know his name and need to talk to him at all hours of the day. He is one of the cool kids - compared his Steph Curry fantasy basketball group with the sad collection of not-real-friends he brought to Vegas to his stag party. He's important and loved by all. He jogs daily from downtown San Francisco to some house more conveniently close to the airport (one of his selling points for the house). He's stylish with a minimalist apartment and a coffee house he loves for its coffee and not its punny name (Kate appreciating the silly humour in the name and the non-response from Toby was another sign).

It's not about who has the best job or the best house or the best vision for Jack's future life anymore. They still love parts of each other, but other parts either never existed in the first place or have changed and they aren't changing back. Flaws in the relationship that they previously ignored are bigger than ever. She's a bit of a controlling killjoy while he keeps secrets and ignores her boundaries. 

The marriage is doomed. Kate moving to San Francisco or Toby getting a job in LA might cause it to limp along for a few more years, but the marriage is going to implode. Jack might blame the green egg for ending the marriage, but they've been growing apart for years. A series of events and actions started the ball rolling years ago. One of those events was Jack's birth which strengthened Kate's back and gave her new focus while leaving Toby feeling devastated and left behind. 

Hopefully, they can parent their children together and support each other amicably as they continue to grow. The Kate at her second wedding is so much calmer and happy and ready than Kate at her first wedding.

That entire party was kind of whack. It kind of seemed like Toby was the only one who brought a spouse? The one lady mentioned her wife, but she didn't seem to indicate that the wife was there. Toby cautioned her not to ask what anybody did, but if there were other spouses there, surely there should have been at least one other spouse not in the industry she could ask what they did. Everybody seemed to be from the office. Maybe Amir throws these parties every weekend (we know that Toby went to another office party on the boat) and the other spouses have given up coming? Or maybe it is usually an office party and Kate was an exception since she was visiting from out of town? There seemed to be nobody for Kate to talk to (which was pretty obvious when Toby just bailed on her near the dessert station). 

[Ohiopirate02]

19 minutes ago, GeorgiaRai said:

Besides brunch & dinner, Toby's plans for the day were an art gallery & a stop by the office party.  That doesn't seem overwhelming or overly structured to me.  But even so, as soon as Kate objected, he dropped it; he literally tossed aside the guidebook and said he just wanted to be with her.  I can't find fault in anything he did here - he was thoughtful in his planning, tried to anticipate what she would like, and was immediately flexible when she objected.

For the whole episode, the only thing I didn't like about Toby was his ultimatum toward the end.  Oh, and leaving her alone at the party.  As an introvert, that is my worst nightmare; mingling gives me hives.

But then he threw it in Kate's face the next day that she dared to object to his itinerary.  I feel like there was more to Toby's plan than what was explicitly stated.  

I do feel like Kate is getting judged unfairly here with posters pretty much saying she should swallow her feelings, wants, and desires and be 100% on board with whatever Toby wants.  Maybe not those exact words, but it is heavily implied.  Kate gets roasted when she dares to have regular human emotions.   

[chocolatine]

46 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I do feel like Kate is getting judged unfairly here with posters pretty much saying she should swallow her feelings, wants, and desires and be 100% on board with whatever Toby wants.  Maybe not those exact words, but it is heavily implied.  Kate gets roasted when she dares to have regular human emotions.   

But Kate's wants and desires are predicated on keeping up her lavish lifestyle - nice house, stylish wardrobe, frequent cross-country trips - that can only be had on a six-figure income. But she doesn't want to be responsible for generating that income, because she also wants to work in her "dream" job that barely pays anything. She wants Toby to bring home the money, but without him having any wants of his own that don't align perfectly with hers, and she also doesn't want him to have any fun or personal growth while doing it.

Edited March 27, 2022 by chocolatine

[Rootbeer]

54 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

But then he threw it in Kate's face the next day that she dared to object to his itinerary.  I feel like there was more to Toby's plan than what was explicitly stated.  

I do feel like Kate is getting judged unfairly here with posters pretty much saying she should swallow her feelings, wants, and desires and be 100% on board with whatever Toby wants.  Maybe not those exact words, but it is heavily implied.  Kate gets roasted when she dares to have regular human emotions.   

If there was more to Toby's plan, we didn't hear it and neither did Kate.  He also immediately changed direction and let Kate decide the plan when she objected.

As noted above, I don't think Kate is being so much roasted as so many of us are seeing her feelings, wants and desires as unattainable under the current conditions of their life and marriage.  As noted above, they live in a million dollar house, travel frequently from coast to coast, Kate seems to have an extensive and very nice wardrobe (in real life, most of her clothes would probably be custom made and cost more than off the rack versions in regular sizes)., their son attends music classes at a private school which, I presume, Kate expects him to attend full time soon.  Yet, Kate seems to think that a full-time job as a teacher's aide making barely more than minimum wage is going to be enough to allow Toby to take a big pay cut, even though they'd be lucky if Kate's salary covered daycare for the kids., The fact that Kate hasn't worked full time in many years and hasn't worked at all since marrying until very recently, yet, expects to maintain their lifestyle in LA even if Toby takes a pay cut, even if he hates his job in LA makes me wonder about her mental health.  How does she think they will survive?  She is obviously opposed to downsizing and selling the house and we know that she is not even trying to find a job that pays a little better.  Kate's version of their lives is a pretty fairy tale that is not sustainable.

I don't think she needs to be on board with Toby 100%, but, she needs to listen to his POV and give some thought to what is really the best thing for their family.  From what I saw, she went to SF ostensibly to take a look at the city but, in reality, her mind was completely closed to anything other than what she wanted.  Toby is being realistic, Kate is not.  

Edited March 27, 2022 by Rootbeer

[CrystalBlue]

28 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

If there was more to Toby's plan, we didn't hear it and neither did Kate.  He also immediately changed direction and let Kate decide the plan when she objected.

As noted above, I don't think Kate is being so much roasted as so many of us are seeing her feelings, wants and desires as unattainable under the current conditions of their life and marriage.  As noted above, they live in a million dollar house, travel frequently from coast to coast, Kate seems to have an extensive and very nice wardrobe (in real life, most of her clothes would probably be custom made and cost more than off the rack versions in regular sizes)., their son attends music classes at a private school which, I presume, Kate expects him to attend full time soon.  Yet, Kate seems to think that a full-time job as a teacher's aide making barely more than minimum wage is going to be enough to allow Toby to take a big pay cut, even though they'd be lucky if Kate's salary covered daycare for the kids., The fact that Kate hasn't worked full time in many years and hasn't worked at all since marrying until very recently, yet, expects to maintain their lifestyle in LA even if Toby takes a pay cut, even if he hates his job in LA makes me wonder about her mental health.  How does she think they will survive?  She is obviously opposed to downsizing and selling the house and we know that she is not even trying to find a job that pays a little better.  Kate's version of their lives is a pretty fairy tale that is not sustainable.

I don't think she needs to be on board with Toby 100%, but, she needs to listen to his POV and give some thought to what is really the best thing for their family.  From what I saw, she went to SF ostensibly to take a look at the city but, in reality, her mind was completely closed to anything other than what she wanted.  Toby is being realistic, Kate is not.  

Toby's "ultimatum" was what is realistic to save their marriage.  Toby wants to stay together, provide for his family and live a happy life with a fulfilling career.  Kate wants to keep what she has in LA with a better job.  She should have called a marriage counselor, not Philip MeanJerk.  (OK, not right at the top of The Hill, but you get what I mean.)

[Rootbeer]

1 minute ago, CrystalBlue said:

Toby's "ultimatum" was what is realistic to save their marriage.  Toby wants to stay together, provide for his family and live a happy life with a fulfilling career.  Kate wants to keep what she has in LA with a better job.  She should have called a marriage counselor, not Philip MeanJerk.  (OK, not right at the top of The Hill, but you get what I mean.)

Yes, I think Toby was approaching things from the point of view that they both wanted to prioritize the marriage; Kate has different priorities and the marriage is not at the top of her list.

[pennben]

I can assure you if my partner gave me an ultimatum like that after lying to me about opportunity to move back to where we lived (as he agreed when he moved away), he would not like the answer. 

[GeorgiaRai]

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I do feel like Kate is getting judged unfairly here with posters pretty much saying she should swallow her feelings, wants, and desires and be 100% on board with whatever Toby wants.  Maybe not those exact words, but it is heavily implied.  Kate gets roasted when she dares to have regular human emotions.   

Personally, I just don't relate to Kate in this current story line.  She's enjoying the benefits of Toby's increased income while resenting him for doing what it takes to earn it.  I don't understand not trusting her husband to make a work-related decision on his own, without assuming/implying he's sabotaging the family. I don't see any gratitude in her for the blessed life she lives; not many of us can work part time, or choose a job based on personal fulfillment without regard to salary.  I don't see how in three months she's decided he's superfluous & her two-day-a-week teaching gig is more important than her marriage.  It seems like she wouldn't be quite so upset if Toby hated his job and SF - and who thinks that way? 

None of it is logical or relatable to me; the whole script feels fake and forced - just a cheap vehicle to deliver the break-up and subsequent marriage to Mean Jerk. 

Edited March 27, 2022 by GeorgiaRai

[Pattycake2]

I’m not looking forward to next weeks episode about Randall. It just seems like they are making changes toneveryone’s character to follow a story arcNabout growth and development. Last week when Kevin said he couldn’t go into the hospital and spend the night.  That he just couldn’t do it and then he did and oh, the Kevin character is finally showing growth.  Finally showing growth?  The man who missed his opening night on Broadway to go to his brother who was having a nervous breakdown?  The man who walked out on an important movie to be present for the birth of his twins? And who stopped enroute to save a man trapped in the car? This man couldn’t face staying by a friends bed in the hospital?

now we have Kate somehow finding herself by leaving the man she has loved these past years? How the heck are they going to twist Randall’s story?  Bah!

[kili]

Quote

If there was more to Toby's plan, we didn't hear it and neither did Kate.  He also immediately changed direction and let Kate decide the plan when she objected.

We do know there was more to Toby's plan. He intended to take her by his dream house during the open house to show her around so that they could make an offer in two days.  

We also know his plan included eating vegan barbecue and he scheduled sex in-between two work calls.

He could have bought them while distracted, but he did have a lock and a pen, so he probably planned to go to the love lock place as well.

 

[bros402]

On 3/23/2022 at 9:49 PM, Johnny Dollar said:

What qualifications does Kate have to be a full time teacher at a school for the blind?  Where did she get her degree in specialized education from?  Where did she learn how to prepare lesson plans, especially for blind children? In which state does she have a teaching license? Oh wait. She’s a Pearson and all Pearsons are perfect. Just ask Toby. And Beth. And Sophie. And Madison.

BTW, what was Kate doing from her late teens to the time the show started? She complained that she saw nothing in her future, yet apparently did nothing to change it. She barely had a life before Toby came along, and even him trying to better himself wasn’t good enough for her. I’m glad this show is ending because I can’t take much more of this family. 

Kate finished her degree in season 2 or so? But it seemed like a community college.... so not exactly a bachelors that would be needed to teach.

I thought until now, Kate has been a teaching assistant - which, at least here in NJ, has qualifications depending on the school. I applied for such a position at a special ed school 7 years ago - it required a minimum of 60 credits, but "preferred" someone with a bachelors, and "strongly preferred" a certified teacher.

With the Kate timeline - we know she worked at a diner for a while, and at the start of the series she was Kevin's assistant. So at some point, she did 50+ college credits (Since it was said she only had a few college classes left to do - let's say she did all but two classes, so she did 54 credits. Worst case was probably all except a full time semester (minimum of 12 credits at colleges I am familiar with for undergrad programs)

[chocolatine]

11 minutes ago, bros402 said:

With the Kate timeline - we know she worked at a diner for a while, and at the start of the series she was Kevin's assistant. So at some point, she did 50+ college credits (Since it was said she only had a few college classes left to do - let's say she did all but two classes, so she did 54 credits. Worst case was probably all except a full time semester (minimum of 12 credits at colleges I am familiar with for undergrad programs)

She worked at the diner for a really long time - she started working there when she was 19 and was still working there in the flashback to when the Big Three were 28. Kevin hadn't made it big with the Manny yet, so I'm sure it was a few more years before Kate quit the diner and relocated to LA to work as his assistant. So it's possible that she earned that many credits in that time.

[GeorgiaRai]

I think way too much about these people who aren't even real, but...  since Kate doesn't remarry for 5 years, I think the break-up storyline could've been handled better in flash-forwards covering the next several months. Yes, in real life, a couple could end up exactly where they're at.  I just don't see them getting to this point in 3 months of Toby working part of each week out of town.  

There didn't have to be an insta-villain, but when they chose to write one, of course they picked the non-Pearson.  No likey.

[Johnny Dollar]

The cynic in me says that Kate marries PMJ five years in the future because that’s when Toby’s obligation to pay alimony ends. She will need someone else to take care of her by then.

Kate bashing aside, that character is almost criminally under-developed compared to the story arcs of the brothers. Both Randall and Kevin would be able to carry a stand-alone series based on their own life experiences, from teen years to adulthood. Can you imagine a show solely dedicated to Kate’s life?  I wonder if Fogelman had much more planned for that character that just didn’t work out for some reason. 

[Ohiopirate02]

8 hours ago, kili said:

We do know there was more to Toby's plan. He intended to take her by his dream house during the open house to show her around so that they could make an offer in two days.  

We also know his plan included eating vegan barbecue and he scheduled sex in-between two work calls.

He could have bought them while distracted, but he did have a lock and a pen, so he probably planned to go to the love lock place as well.

 

Toby 2.0's failure to acknowledge the inherent absurdity that is vegan barbecue is a sign at least to me that this new Toby is not a better Toby. Whatever they serve may taste delicious, but grilled vegetables is not barbecue,  nor is smoke infused tofu,  nor is any type of Beyond Burger nonsense.   Old Toby would have at least pointed this out.  

[debraran]

25 minutes ago, Johnny Dollar said:

The cynic in me says that Kate marries PMJ five years in the future because that’s when Toby’s obligation to pay alimony ends. She will need someone else to take care of her by then.

Kate bashing aside, that character is almost criminally under-developed compared to the story arcs of the brothers. Both Randall and Kevin would be able to carry a stand-alone series based on their own life experiences, from teen years to adulthood. Can you imagine a show solely dedicated to Kate’s life?  I wonder if Fogelman had much more planned for that character that just didn’t work out for some reason. 

I think (and no more from me about weight) that if she chose that path of slow weight loss, Dan talked about in 2017, there would have been more growth, slowly to show her coming out of her depression shell, etc. But he gave her options, and said he'd check in every year. I feel the same as you, she was the most boring of the 3. She was given a horrible teen boyfriend, then a married guy we didn't hear much about, then Toby. But her growth was minimal. It showed her blaming her weight on things like not getting a job when it was her talent. She didn't go back to school in her twenties that they mentioned, she didn't have to waitress for all those years. She never got counseling that we saw like with her brothers. She had a child knowing the risks, poor Toby trying to increase sperm count, went off his meds (I hated that even with disclaimers not too do it) then she had to adopt a baby because having Jack Jr wasn't enough, then it's like, a complete breakdown in communication. I tried to like Kate but there are rare episodes that show her likable.

Edited March 27, 2022 by debraran

[himela]

17 minutes ago, Johnny Dollar said:

Kate bashing aside, that character is almost criminally under-developed compared to the story arcs of the brothers. Both Randall and Kevin would be able to carry a stand-alone series based on their own life experiences, from teen years to adulthood. Can you imagine a show solely dedicated to Kate’s life?

It's the exact opposite for me. Kate's character is someone I could see most people relating to because every person has something that they feel keeps them back. For Kate it's the weight, for someone else could be some other physical flaw or something they had after an accident.

What is interesting about Kevin? He is a narcisist who is used to get everything he wants just by being pretty. He was the one person out of the three who made the most money doing the least. At least Kate was serving tables for 10 years, this is no joke and especially with her weight problem, she must have suffered from back problems etc.

And Randall? Well ok, he is the classic know-it-all who has to be right all the time. Nothing interesting there for me either :P

1 hour ago, GeorgiaRai said:

There didn't have to be an insta-villain, but when they chose to write one, of course they picked the non-Pearson.

I read this a lot in this board, but this doesn't happen with Beth and Randall nor with Kevin and Sophie for example. Beth is loved by everyone and also Sophie is the favorite between Kevin and her. So I don't really see the writers wanting to show that the Big three are not villains sometimes.

[peeayebee]

18 hours ago, GeorgiaRai said:

Man, I would hate that story line.  From a viewer standpoint, it already feels like they want us all to be "Team Kate" but throwing Toby under the bus is off-putting to me. 

They would be throwing him under the bus then beating him with a stick.

 

14 hours ago, mansonlamps said:

I didn't see it as a big gesture as much as what every single person I've ever visited in a city I've never been to planned in advance trying to show me a good time.   Especially in a city as iconic as SF.

I saw it as a toned-down big gesture, a Toby 2.0 gesture. I've visited people in new cities where they had things and places they wanted to show me, but Toby's plans seemed micro-scheduled. I don't find find fault with that, but it wasn't what Kate wanted, which is fine. 

I see his reveal of the house as a Toby-ish gesture. He put a lot of thought into why that house would be perfect for them. He even looked into the financing. From his POV he was setting the table for Kate to say yes. How could she say no to this? Of course when you work from your POV you often don't see the other person's POV. 

 

 

12 hours ago, kili said:

Jack might blame the green egg for ending the marriage, but they've been growing apart for years.

I would love for Jack's memory of the Big Green Egg incident to be wrong. That happens a lot with childhood memories, and this show is kind of known for its switcheroos.

[Boo Boo]

11 hours ago, pennben said:

I can assure you if my partner gave me an ultimatum like that after lying to me about opportunity to move back to where we lived (as he agreed when he moved away), he would not like the answer. 

Exactly.  The fact that he concealed the job offer and then once revealed, wouldn't even tell his wife what the salary would've been?  It seems pretty clear it would have been enough and that's why he wouldn't tell her.

Not to mention, she's had zero involvement on the house he's already been in talks with the realtor with.  This was all sprung on her.  This is the big gesture that I was referring to when I said I hate big gestures.

Toby is doing what Jack did to Rebecca.  Steamrolling decisions past his wife and expecting her to roll along.   

I realize he did not purchase the house, but she was expected to make a decision within hours, right?  

I think people saying Kate can just "get another job" are minimizing how hard it would be for a morbidly obese woman to get a job in a city that is considered one of the fittest cities in the US.   TIU may ignore the pink elephant but there is a pink elephant that looms in the job market for someone so obese.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Boo Boo

[GeorgiaRai]

59 minutes ago, himela said:

I read this a lot in this board, but this doesn't happen with Beth and Randall nor with Kevin and Sophie for example. Beth is loved by everyone and also Sophie is the favorite between Kevin and her. So I don't really see the writers wanting to show that the Big three are not villains sometimes.

I think we've been shown flaws in each of the Pearsons, as well as background for why they acted a certain way even when the audience or other characters disagreed or disapproved.  Much of my dislike for the current K&T storyline has to do with (1) the flash forward - because we know this is groundwork for their divorce, and (2) timing - because there doesn't seem to be time for a Toby redemption arc.  Not saying the show won't prove me wrong & change my mind - but all my comments about this episode are based on what I "know" up to this point, That leaves me, for now, thinking they are unnecessarily & unbelievably making Toby a bad guy. 

JOOLUO (Just one old lady's unpopular opinion)

[Rootbeer]

1 hour ago, Boo Boo said:

t purchase the house, but she was expected to make a decision within hours, right?  

I think people saying Kate can just "get another job" are minimizing how hard it would be for a morbidly obese woman to get a job in a city that is considered one of the fittest cities in the US.   TIU may ignore the pink elephant but there is a pink elephant that looms in the job market for someone so obese.

Kate got a job, albeit a crappy, poorly paid one, in LA.  I doubt the emphasis on a woman's appearance is any less there than it is in SF.  From what we've seen, Kate's attitude is her biggest barrier to gainful employment.  She just doesn't see the necessity of earning a living, even if the job isn't so great.  That, combined with her overall negative attitude, is the issue for her.

Quote

I would love for Jack's memory of the Big Green Egg incident to be wrong. That happens a lot with childhood memories, and this show is kind of known for its switcheroos.

If it is, you would think that one or both of his parents would've set him straight.  That he still thinks his accident was the cause of the divorce decades later makes me think that one or both of his parents reinforced this narrative which is a really sh**ty thing to do to their kid.

9 hours ago, chocolatine said:

She worked at the diner for a really long time - she started working there when she was 19 and was still working there in the flashback to when the Big Three were 28. Kevin hadn't made it big with the Manny yet, so I'm sure it was a few more years before Kate quit the diner and relocated to LA to work as his assistant. So it's possible that she earned that many credits in that time.

I think Kate said she worked in the diner for 10 years.  In which case, how is it that she didn't even earn enough credits in all that time for an associate's degree from community college?  It wasn't the job, it was her lack of motivation and willingness to let others support her well into adulthood that got in the way of her education.  Let's face it, she is a 41 year old woman who just recently figured out what she wants to be when she grows up and what she wants to be is someone who doesn't have to pay her own way but can work just for fun.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Rootbeer

[peeayebee]

7 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

If it is, you would think that one or both of his parents would've set him straight.  That he still thinks his accident was the cause of the divorce decades later makes me think that one or both of his parents reinforced this narrative which is a really sh**ty thing to do to their kid.

I can't remember the details of that Jack scene, but did he say, "My parents told me this caused them to get divorced" ? If not, I can easily imagine that he saw them fight about the accident, and when they got divorced he just assumed that was the cause. They all didn't necessarily discuss things with Jack then or in the future. Of course we know their marriage has had many other issues other than the burn accident. We'll have to see.

BTW, since the discussion here has touched on what the show had planned for Kate depending on Chrissy losing weight, what's the story behind Chris Sullivan's weight loss? Was that the actor's decision or did the show have that in mind for Toby? (I've watched the show from the beginning but haven't followed all the behind-the-scenes stuff.)

[Rootbeer]

Just now, peeayebee said:

I can't remember the details of that Jack scene, but did he say, "My parents told me this caused them to get divorced" ? If not, I can easily imagine that he saw them fight about the accident, and when they got divorced he just assumed that was the cause. They all didn't necessarily discuss things with Jack then or in the future. Of course we know their marriage has had many other issues other than the burn accident. We'll have to see.

BTW, since the discussion here has touched on what the show had planned for Kate depending on Chrissy losing weight, what's the story behind Chris Sullivan's weight loss? Was that the actor's decision or did the show have that in mind for Toby? (I've watched the show from the beginning but haven't followed all the behind-the-scenes stuff.)

Chris Sullivan wore padding when he first appeared on the show, so he didn't lose weight, he just stopped wearing the padding.  Presumably, it was always planned for Toby to lose weight.

[kili]

Quote

BTW, since the discussion here has touched on what the show had planned for Kate depending on Chrissy losing weight, what's the story behind Chris Sullivan's weight loss? Was that the actor's decision or did the show have that in mind for Toby? (I've watched the show from the beginning but haven't followed all the behind-the-scenes stuff.)

Chris Sullivan wasn't as heavy as Toby - in the early seasons, they dressed him in a fat suit.  I think the actor has lost weight as well. 

Perhaps Toby wouldn't have lost the weight if Kate had and that would have been one of the stressor on the marriage? Earlier in their dating, Toby's cheating on dieting was a bit of a bone of contention although I think he always lost weight more easily. Plus, one is at less risk of actually harming the actor if you make weight a huge issue if they aren't actually fat - both physically (they could yo-yo diet Toby or have him gain weight) and mentally (e.g. Tracy Gold developing an eating disorder). 

[Boo Boo]

1 hour ago, Rootbeer said:

Kate got a job, albeit a crappy, poorly paid one, in LA.  I doubt the emphasis on a woman's appearance is any less there than it is in SF.  From what we've seen, Kate's attitude is her biggest barrier to gainful employment.  She just doesn't see the necessity of earning a living, even if the job isn't so great.  That, combined with her overall negative attitude, is the issue for her.

 

She barely got that job, remember?  

[ams1001]

41 minutes ago, kili said:

although I think he always lost weight more easily.

Men usually do.. (I think it has to do, at least in part, with the fact that men have more muscle mass than women, on average).

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, Rootbeer said:

Chris Sullivan wore padding when he first appeared on the show, so he didn't lose weight, he just stopped wearing the padding.  Presumably, it was always planned for Toby to lose weight.

Wow, I had no idea. (I'm probably the only one on this forum who didn't know that.)

[gonzosgirrl]

39 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Wow, I had no idea. (I'm probably the only one on this forum who didn't know that.)

It was really good makeup/prosthetics.

[mansonlamps]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It was really good makeup/prosthetics.

A lot of people on the Facebook TIU pages are claiming that this is what we can expect to see for Kate at the end of the season.   I hope it's true, that would be an awesome story. 

[chocolatine]

41 minutes ago, mansonlamps said:

A lot of people on the Facebook TIU pages are claiming that this is what we can expect to see for Kate at the end of the season.   I hope it's true, that would be an awesome story. 

Unless Chrissy has been wearing padding and face prosthetics to all of her public appearances in the past year, it's physically impossible that Kate will be significantly slimmer in the finale.

[Jersey409]

I wasn’t sure where they were going with Kate going up that hill- I was actually thinking they were going to write in a third heart attack for the show.  I come from a family of heavy women and if my aunt doesn’t get a control on herself, she is going to be looking like Kate soon. My aunt is covered in sweat and winded just from climbing up three steps to reach the front door of the house  or from the physical effort of trying on different types of shirts in a fitting room.  That hill would have been one hell of a triumph, also as someone mentioned before- taking care of small kids.  Loading the stroller in and out of the car, fastening car seat harnesses, stooping low to bathe kids and lift them out of the bath, diaper changes -all physically demanding and hard work.

 

I thought Toby’s acting was very good. Was especially cool to  see “old Toby” to show how much the character has transformed  and how his acting has changed.

 I understand Kate being upset about Toby’s LA job offer but what? Is she going to stay in LA  on her own and take on a Full time job teaching blind adolescents how to make music while her blind toddler son and baby daughter are in someone else’s care? Keep in mind the lesson plans, preparation, grading, and parent meetings that all happen during after school hours too. Seems kinda counterproductive.   I’m sure this is us will find a way to make it look inspirational and easy. 

[Madding crowd]

Kate takes care of two toddlers one of whom is blind and works part time. I don’t see a lazy person who expects people to take care of her. I see a married woman who made plans along with her husband for her to take care of the children while he provides financial support. No matter how ambitious Kate was, putting two children in full time day care would be hugely expensive and most day care’s wouldn’t be able to take Jack.

I stayed home with my son for years because my husband and I decided it was best for him, it had nothing to do with me expecting people to take care of me. Stay at home moms work just as hard as anyone else. Both Toby and Kate have a right to live, work and have a life that will make them and their children happy. If one of them cannot be happy their marriage won’t work. I just don’t understand the idea that only Toby deserves to be happy. 

Just now, Madding crowd said:

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by Madding crowd

[ECM1231]

On 3/25/2022 at 2:16 PM, izabella said:

Kate has a BS in Handwavium, I imagine.

You win the internet tonight, @izabella! I'm dying!🤣

[mansonlamps]

4 hours ago, Jersey409 said:

I wasn’t sure where they were going with Kate going up that hill- I was actually thinking they were going to write in a third heart attack for the show.  I come from a family of heavy women and if my aunt doesn’t get a control on herself, she is going to be looking like Kate soon. My aunt is covered in sweat and winded just from climbing up three steps to reach the front door of the house  or from the physical effort of trying on different types of shirts in a fitting room.  That hill would have been one hell of a triumph, also as someone mentioned before- taking care of small kids.  Loading the stroller in and out of the car, fastening car seat harnesses, stooping low to bathe kids and lift them out of the bath, diaper changes -all physically demanding and hard 

I posted about this in an earlier episode and I agree with you.  People want "representation" but not in reality. There is zero representation of the reality of being Kate's size which you have pointed out.

 

[Rootbeer]

3 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

Kate takes care of two toddlers one of whom is blind and works part time. I don’t see a lazy person who expects people to take care of her.

 

I don't think Kate is lazy and I don't think anyone else here has said that, either.  I do think she is unrealistic, at least in part, because her father shielded her and taught her that she didn't have to worry about taking care of herself, she wasn't like everyone else.  She is now 41 years old, and, for her entire adult life, she has relied on others to provide her with support in the form of housing and upkeep.  She lived with her mother while working as a waitress, then, she went to work for Kevin.  In the early days of the show, we saw she had a very nice apartment even though he'd quit his show and no longer needed her to work and she seemingly had no urgency to try to find another job.  Eventually, she drifted into being  a part-time assistant to a working woman which lasted about a week.  Next, she decided to be a professional singer even though she had absolutely no experience or training. As anyone with any common sense would realize, that was not a viable option and she quit trying as soon as it got hard.  Once she married Toby, she finished her college degree, but, until she got the gig at the school, which is only part time and pays very poorly, she didn't work at all, even when she had no kids.

it's not that Kate is lazy, it is that she is unrealistic and has some fairy tale notion that, as long as she is happy, she can continue to live an upper class lifestyle while doing nothing to pay the bills.  Her parents and her brother and her husband have all enabled her in thinking that; but I don't know many 41 year old women who have never, ever had to work a full time job to support themselves and pay the bills.  At least she seems to be sticking with the idea of continuing to be a teacher's assistant which is a baby step forward for her; but it still won't pay the bills and is not the sort of career a woman with 2 small kids should consider unless part of the plan is to let someone else pay for all those little extras like food and shelter and clothing.  I'm waiting for her to announce that she now wants to be a cowboy or an astronaut.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Rootbeer

[Madding crowd]

Toby is also the parent to those kids and responsible for supporting them. One of them has the be home at least part time to take care of the kids. If Toby loves his job and has to work 10 plus hours a day then Kate has to be a stay at home parent who perhaps works part time . Not sure how that is unrealistic.

[chocolatine]

6 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

Toby is also the parent to those kids and responsible for supporting them. One of them has the be home at least part time to take care of the kids. If Toby loves his job and has to work 10 plus hours a day then Kate has to be a stay at home parent who perhaps works part time . Not sure how that is unrealistic.

But Kate is not happy with Toby loving his job and working so much, even though she takes for granted the lifestyle and freedom that his job gives her. Many women who have young children have to work full-time, often in jobs they don't enjoy, because their husbands don't earn enough to single-handedly support their family. Kate is in a very privileged position to be able to do what fulfills her, but she begrudges Toby his desire to be fulfilled in his work as well. That's what makes it so difficult to sympathize with her.

[Rootbeer]

18 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

Toby is also the parent to those kids and responsible for supporting them. One of them has the be home at least part time to take care of the kids. If Toby loves his job and has to work 10 plus hours a day then Kate has to be a stay at home parent who perhaps works part time . Not sure how that is unrealistic.

Kate just applied for a full time position at the school.  Toby currently works in another city.  We've also seen the flash forwards and we know she and Toby divorce.  While Toby is, of course, going to be responsible for supporting his children and I don't think anyone here doesn't think he will do whatever is needed for them; he has no responsibility to support Kate so that she can work a minimum wage job and put their children into day care which her salary will probably barely cover.  I expect that Toby is going to be paying the lion's share of the mortgage and utilities, etc; but he isn't supposed to be paying for Kate's clothing or medical insurance or food, etc.  So, what is Kate's plan to pay for her own expenses and to contribute at least a small portion of the expenses for the house where she will be living?  She might get alimony for a year or two, but, at some point, it will be up to her and she seems not to realize that.

For that matter, it seems that Kate's ideal plan would be for Toby to move back to LA and take a lower paying job that he probably won't like as much, so that she can continue to do what she wants, which is to do work that she likes while contributing NOTHING to the household expenses.  Nice work if you can get it.  

Edited March 28, 2022 by Rootbeer

[Madding crowd]

Well Toby moved to another city and almost never sees his family and just expects her to move and leave the life she and the kids have. Toby and Kate deserve to be happy but it’s not fair for Toby to get everything he wants and Kate to have to give up what she wants especially since Toby was offered a job in LA.

People on TV always live in apartments or houses they couldn’t really afford so it is difficult to say how this would work in real life.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Madding crowd

[Rootbeer]

3 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

Well Toby moved to another city and almost never sees his family and just expects her to move and leave the life she and the kids have. Toby and Kate deserve to be happy but it’s not fair for Toby to get everything he wants and Kate to have to give up what she wants especially since Toby was offered a job in LA.

People on TV always live in apartments or houses they couldn’t really afford so it is difficult to say how this would work in real life.

For me, it comes down to what is best for the FAMILY.  Of course, they both deserve to lead happy, fulfilling lives; but, like most families, there needs to be give and take.  It's a hard truth, but oftentimes parents have to compromise what they want to do what is best for their kids.  Kate wants to stay in LA because she likes her job, working part time as a teacher's aide; a job that should be easily available in SF even if not at the same school.  She says she also wants to be close to her mother, but Rebecca is moving to PA very soon; so that is not the reason.  She also claims that baby Jack needs to stay in the same house because he would have too much trouble adjusting to a new home.  But no trouble at all adjusting to full time daycare when she goes full time; so, once again, her reason is false.  So, the only reason to stay in LA is that Kate wants to work at that particular school (and loves their home herself).

Meanwhile, Toby has a history of depression, and being unhappy in a previous job was a big contributing factor.  He has now found a job that he loves and that pays really well, better than any job he has ever had; enough that they can afford to move to one of the most expensive towns in the US.  But, he should roll the dice, take whatever job he can get at less pay, as long as it is in LA so that Kate can continue to work part time for minimum wage at a job because she likes it?  Does not compute.

[pennben]

Every single day since Toby turned down the job, he has violated a promise they made he would look to find a job back in LA. Every single day since then he has lied to his wife. I’m sure there have been conversations about looking in the interim. I am sure he has not. Every single day, I think, for months. He’s done that before. Lied for days on end to her about things he doesn’t want to have a conversation about. And now, after repeatedly shattering her trust (she’s now just processing all the lying), he issues ‘what else could we possibly do but move here?’ a ‘my way or highway’ ultimatum. 

Edited March 28, 2022 by pennben

[Lisa418722]

7 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

For that matter, it seems that Kate's ideal plan would be for Toby to move back to LA and take a lower paying job that he probably won't like as much, so that she can continue to do what she wants, which is to do work that she likes while contributing NOTHING to the household expenses.  Nice work if you can get it.  

 

6 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

Meanwhile, Toby has a history of depression, and being unhappy in a previous job was a big contributing factor.  He has now found a job that he loves and that pays really well, better than any job he has ever had; enough that they can afford to move to one of the most expensive towns in the US.  But, he should roll the dice, take whatever job he can get at less pay, as long as it is in LA so that Kate can continue to work part time for minimum wage at a job because she likes it?  Does not compute.

Kate doesn't consider the fact that Toby has a history of depression.  She just thinks that everyone should coddle her and take care of her.   Being a waitress was the only "real" job she had IMO.  I'm sure when she was working for Kevin it was more of him giving her money so that she didn't have to work, but she worded it as being his assistant because it sounded better than "my brother is supporting me."  She may have run errands for  him, but somehow I don't see her really working.   
As far as Toby's job... I'm in a job right now where I'm unhappy.  I would love to have a job where I have coworkers I could talk to, where I felt like my boss would listen to me and not act condescending when I have questions (sorry going off on a personal rant there).  But Toby feels appreciated in this San Francisco job and that is gong to help his depression.  Does Kate even remember Toby's depression?  

[Boo Boo]

11 hours ago, pennben said:

Every single day since Toby turned down the job, he has violated a promise they made he would look to find a job back in LA. Every single day since then he has lied to his wife. I’m sure there have been conversations about looking in the interim. I am sure he has not. Every single day, I think, for months. He’s done that before. Lied for days on end to her about things he doesn’t want to have a conversation about. And now, after repeatedly shattering her trust (she’s now just processing all the lying), he issues ‘what else could we possibly do but move here?’ a ‘my way or highway’ ultimatum. 

Right.   This is the second major lack of trust issue popping up.  Why should anyone stay with someone who can't be open about some major things in life?

[Ohiopirate02]

1 minute ago, Boo Boo said:

Right.   This is the second major lack of trust issue popping up.  Why should anyone stay with someone who can't be open about some major things in life?

One thing that bugs me here with Toby, he lied by omission and regrets nothing.  He has shattered Kate's trust in him.  What is his plan moving forward?  Telling Kate she needs to get on board is not a plan.  If Kate and the kids to relocate to SF to be with him, what is their life going to be like?  Toby's work-life balance is out of whack at the moment.  I know being the new guy, it can be a challenge to establish boundaries with his coworkers, but is he going to continue with taking work calls at all hours?  What life is Kate going to have in SF?  How present is he going to be in their new life?  Toby can tell her that he will set up boundaries and block out hours to be with them, but what guarantee does Kate have that he will follow through on this?  Their marriage is broken at the point, and needs more than Kate moving to SF to fix it.  

Realistic** or not, Kate is better cutting her losses now and stay put.  Her moving to SF will only delay the inevitable, and she will be in a worse financial position at that time.  

 

** why we need this show to be realistic in this particular storyline after Randall's swim with his ghost mom is something I do not understand.