S06.E09: The Hill

[CountryGirl]

6 hours ago, GeorgiaRai said:

I felt like they wanted me to think Toby was being insensitive to Kate by calling a Lyft and not expecting/assuming she'd prefer to walk [up hill, in cocktail attire and dressy shoes, to arrive within a certain timeframe at a fancy party for a first-time meeting with Toby's boss & colleagues].  The fact that she could do it on her own doesn't reflect at all on Toby's actions that night, because the circumstances were entirely different.  

Why do we even need a Big Green Egg Incident now?  They've already ruined Toby & Kate; why subject us to more of their angst and bitterness and household-appliance drama? We've all already chosen which parent we want to live with after this divorce, so... just move on, show!

I didn't see him as insensitive at all. I wouldn't want to walk more than a quarter-mile in heels and a dress. No way.

As far as why do we even need a BGE incident. Well, this show loves to bring extra-drama.

Unity horse?

[CountryGirl]

31 minutes ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

I think we are just not going to agree here. I think a better plan here would be for Kate and Toby to learn how to not be miserable by better communicating their hopes, plans, and ambitions rather than just deciding their current lives make them miserable and chucking it the window. If both people are decent humans, and nothing has indicated otherwise, and both care about either other and, again, nothing has indicated otherwise, they can work together to help each other achieve their dreams and ambitions. It is just going to require communicating and deciding what they are willing to sacrifice. I would hope that their marriage would be one of the last things they were willing to sacrifice.

And disagreement is okay. How boring would life be if everyone agreed all of the time?

I think if they are both willing to compromise and the love is still there, which I think it is as you don't have that kind of argument when the love is gone, then the marriage could be saved. We won't know til the show's end. I'm annoyed with Toby right now but I am still rooting for them. 

8 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

That's a failure on the writers' part, not a character flaw on Toby's. The writers are pretending that all office-based work went back to exactly the way it was before the pandemic, when in reality, it has changed forever.

I can definitely see Toby as someone who has FOMO (yes, that's a term that adults in the tech industry actually use) in that regard, but it still doesn't make sense that his employer is operating like companies did pre-pandemic. As I said in a previous post, in the real world, even his colleagues who live in SF aren't likely to go back to the office five days a week. I do agree that he's likely volunteering to take on more responsibilities because he wants to be the guy who gets promoted every two years and underestimates the toll this kind of work style takes on a family. 

Rebecca and Miguel are retired, so neither of them draws a salary. Since Rebecca only started working in her late 40s, she probably doesn't have much in terms of retirement savings, so it's a fair assumption that Miguel's savings and investments provide for the both of them. Also, the plan is for Rebecca and Miguel to move to the house in PA that Kevin is building, so that rules out moving in with Kate.

To be clear, I wasn't rolling my eyes at Toby the person, but the premise of the show that his job can't be WFH in this day and age and especially in light of our ongoing pandemic. 

[CrystalBlue]

4 hours ago, Empress1 said:

Particularly since he works in tech; they should be used to remote work. I work remotely and if I have my way, I won’t go into an office every day ever again in my working life. The show seems to be pretending that COVID never existed though. They acknowledged it earlier on (masks, Toby did a couple of Zoom interviews) but have stopped doing so. (We’re still in a pandemic - I would not go to an indoor cocktail party that size with no masks in sight.)

Maybe all the work cocktail party-goers were fully vaxxed, boosted at least once, and the work culture demands that they mix and mingle on the daily so remote working or WFH is againt their core values.  😃

Agree, Tobes should have been in LA working remotely with SF and Japan a lot more so he could keep his end of the bargain.

[Crs97]

13 minutes ago, CrystalBlue said:

Agree, Tobes should have been in LA working remotely with SF and Japan a lot more so he could keep his end of the bargain.

But then she would complain that he was home but not really there.  She’d want him to take the kids so she could do something and be upset that he was working, or want help with groceries and be mad that he is on a conference call.  Toby cannot win here.

[himela]

45 minutes ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

I think we are just not going to agree here. I think a better plan here would be for Kate and Toby to learn how to not be miserable by better communicating their hopes, plans, and ambitions rather than just deciding their current lives make them miserable and chucking it the window. If both people are decent humans, and nothing has indicated otherwise, and both care about either other and, again, nothing has indicated otherwise, they can work together to help each other achieve their dreams and ambitions. It is just going to require communicating and deciding what they are willing to sacrifice. I would hope that their marriage would be one of the last things they were willing to sacrifice.

I'm afraid though that Kate's only way to stand on her own feet and become a person who can survive and be happy is only by being single for some time. I think that Toby just replaced her dad being her carrier in life, the person who fulfills her every wish, who has to be careful how to talk to her not to hurt her feelings, who has to support her. If Kate moves to SF with Toby and the kids, she will become that person again who is dependent on Toby for her happiness. I think Kate finally realized that she was doing it all wrong all along; she had to be happy by herself first in order to be happy with another person. And maybe this is the work she will do with herself in the following 4-5 years until she marries Mean Jerk.

[CrystalBlue]

15 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

But then she would complain that he was home but not really there.  She’d want him to take the kids so she could do something and be upset that he was working, or want help with groceries and be mad that he is on a conference call.  Toby cannot win here.

With Kate's current attitude, no he cannot.

[Sake614]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

My state recognizes Special Needs Trusts that can be established with strict guidelines, and allows a disabled person to qualify for certain benefits, excluding the balance in the Trust.  

Yeah minE too. We also have a ‘pooled trust’ that allows you to shelter your extra income and still be eligible for Medicaid. Essentially instead of paying your overage to the state, you put it into a trust that can be used to pay your monthly living expenses like rent, utilities etc. honestly, it’s been a godsend for my mom. Without it, she wouldn’t get the help she needs AND be able to continue living in her apartment.

[Jillybean]

2 hours ago, ams1001 said:

I think that's mostly just a function of reality. They can't have the character be noticeably thinner in a flash forward when the actress is the size she is now. It's easy to have a character gain and lose weight only if that weight is fake (like Toby's was). Makeup and wardrobe can do a lot of things, but they can't physically shrink a real person, so they're limited in what they can write for her as far as a weight-loss journey goes. Even if the actress was on board to lose the weight, there's no guarantee she will be successful in doing it within the time frame of the filming of the show.

Yes, they would have had to skip the flash-forward to Kate's wedding that we saw last season. Which they could have done, or just not showed her. I've seen all sorts of speculation on the internet that we will see a noticeably slimmed-down Kate at Rebecca's deathbed, and that's why she hasn't been shown yet. Further, that CM has lost 100 lbs and is now being padded and shot at angles to disguise her substantial weight loss. I find this all to be extremely unlikely. I'm still going with "Kate's dead." Although that doesn't explain why Toby doesn't have the kids. But, I digress. 

[Katie111]

1 hour ago, himela said:

I'm afraid though that Kate's only way to stand on her own feet and become a person who can survive and be happy is only by being single for some time. I think that Toby just replaced her dad being her carrier in life, the person who fulfills her every wish, who has to be careful how to talk to her not to hurt her feelings, who has to support her. If Kate moves to SF with Toby and the kids, she will become that person again who is dependent on Toby for her happiness. I think Kate finally realized that she was doing it all wrong all along; she had to be happy by herself first in order to be happy with another person. And maybe this is the work she will do with herself in the following 4-5 years until she marries Mean Jerk.

Maybe she should have come to that realization before she dragged  2 kids and a husband into her mess.  

[Crs97]

1 hour ago, Sake614 said:

My state recognizes Special Needs Trusts that can be established with strict guidelines, and allows a disabled person to qualify for certain benefits, excluding the balance in the Trust.  

Our state does as well, but for children they still look at parents’ income before any benefits are paid.  Toby and Kate will be paying for Jack’s needs for many years to come.

[himela]

1 hour ago, Katie111 said:

Maybe she should have come to that realization before she dragged  2 kids and a husband into her mess.  

Same goes for Toby though right?

Better late than never :P

Edited March 24, 2022 by himela
changed my mind

[nexxie]

Not sure it was realistic for a little girl to say, “Why would I?” at the idea of letting go and swimming on her own. Seems like something a child psychologist might say about the little girl.

[qtpye]

7 hours ago, himela said:

In the contrary, I think the show has shown more than enough that Kate is like this because she was her father's favorite and she was used to get whatever she liked from him and when she lost him she spent her whole life doing the exact same thing with other people who were not taking this until she found Toby.

The scene at the pool when Jack tells her to let go and she says "why would I?" is really telling. She had no reason to let go and take her life into her own hands because she knew her dad would guide her and protect her. That's why she was the most "lost" of the three when their dad died. That's why she told her brothers that she sees nothing looking at her future; because she was expecting Jack to show her what her future should be and she never knew how to decide and act by herself.

Walking that hill was the first time she did exactly that.

And in between Toby and Jack...she had the good fortune of having a brother who was a rich and famous actor. He hired her and she was even more sheltered in the real world which allowed her to wallow in her pain and misery.

6 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

This whole plot is slowly turning into some 90s/early 00s family movie where the dad works too much and misses his sons baseball game because he was talking on his hilariously clunky cellphone to his business office where he does business so the child is forever traumatized and everyone treats him like he just ax murdered an orphanage because he works a lot. Now, to learn his lesson and save his marriage, Toby just needs to turn into a dog, or turn into Santa, or learn that he can talk to animals, or become a snowman, or hire a magical nanny, or learn that he's Peter Pan...

Yes, it is like those private schools that expect parents to show up to every event and biweekly meetings and is offended when the parents have to bring up that they actually have to work to pay those private school tuitions. They take this as meaning you do not care about your child when in truth you care enough about your child to work hard to send them to private school.

We live in one of the hardest capitalist societies in the world but pop culture loves to villainize the parent (it's even worse if the parent is the mother) who doesn't come to every little thing their child does.

 

[SunnyBeBe]

58 minutes ago, nexxie said:

Not sure it was realistic for a little girl to say, “Why would I?” at the idea of letting go and swimming on her own. Seems like something a child psychologist might say about the little girl.

So true. Totally not likely from a child that age in that situation.  Them together did remind me of my childhood, though. My dad taught me to swim when I was about her age.  I actually caught on pretty quick.  
 

What was it with little Kate?  Did she have this inherent insecurity, obstinate personality from birth?

Edited March 25, 2022 by SunnyBeBe

[PepSinger]

I thought this was a good, well written episode.

 

I feel for both Toby and Kate. I don’t think either of them is 100% right or 100% wrong. Toby was wrong for not telling Kate about the LA job offer. I agree with whoever said upthread that he probably used that offer to increase his salary at the SF job, and there was no way the LA job could match it.

However, I’ve been trying to figure out why I am slightly more sympathetic to Toby rather than Kate. For me, I think it’s two reasons: 1) Kate has unrealistic expectations for other people and 2) Kate has yet to come up with a practical solution. Regarding point number one, as soon as Toby said he would be unable to pick her up from the airport, she immediately became all mopey. I mean, shit happens. It’s not as if it’s 1960, and she has no other way to get from the airport to the apartment. Lyft, Uber, and taxis exist. She started off the weekend with a bad taste in her mouth. Then, Toby has planned this huge weekend with her, and all she wants to do is stay inside and watch Netflix. The fuck? WHO travels to a city for the first time and wants to spend the majority or significant part of their trip inside?! That doesn’t even make sense! If you are entertaining the notion of moving to another city, wouldn’t you want to see as much of it as possible? I could understand it if she were regularly traveling up there on the weekends, so a one time Netflix and chill weekend wouldn’t matter. However, that isn’t what is happening. Next, she seemed pissy about Toby calling a Lyft to take them to the party. Hell, I would’ve been more offended if he’d expected me to walk to a party up a hill while I was wearing a cocktail dress. Toby is not a mind reader. Finally, to leave a work party without saying goodbye to everyone was childish and stupid. Toby is your source of income. Why would you want to piss off the people he works with and for?? Even when Beth heard that shitty voicemail Randall sent to her when she was on the way to that house in S3, she managed to act like a decent guest for the duration of the visit. All that being said, the real put off is that she kept imagining old Toby. It’s as if in Kate’s world, people are not allowed to change. If people do change, then she is resentful. To stay the same person for years on end is impossible to live up to, and no one should expect that from anyone else.
 

Regarding point number two, Kate has not offered up a practical solution for how they can live in LA. While I know Toby had a job offer in LA that he could have accepted, I don’t understand why they should be basing their living situation off of the parent that is making the least amount of money. Money isn’t everything; I understand that. I know that just because one spouse is making the most money doesn’t mean that they can unilaterally make decisions in the family. However, for any married couple that I’ve known who have decided to move, it was due to the spouse getting a higher paying job than the other spouse. If there were a realistic way that they could live in LA on her salary or if she has some other solution, then she should offer that. To me, this situation is entirely different from Beth and Randall’s situation a couple of years ago. Beth and Randall had comparable salaries/earning potential. Beth was able to follow her passion because they figured out a way to afford it. Was I pissed on Beth’s behalf that Randall was making major decisions without consulting her? Yes, but the circumstances are different from Toby and Kate.

 

That all being said, I think it’s a plot contrivance that Toby’s job has him going into the office, and it’s annoying. However, if he were working remotely in LA, I have a feeling that things wouldn’t be much different.

Edited March 25, 2022 by PepSinger

[qtpye]

44 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So true. Totally not likely from a child that age in that situation.  Them together did remind me of my childhood, though. My dad taught me to swim when I was about her age.  I actually caught on pretty quick.  
 

What was it with little Kate?  Did she have this inherent insecurity, obstinate personality from birth?

Jack was very adamant that the boys (even Randall) learn to cope with their shortcomings and persevere to be "Men". He coddled Kate so she just got her way most of the time. 

Edited March 25, 2022 by qtpye

[Ohiopirate02]

10 minutes ago, PepSinger said:

I thought this was a good, well written episode.

 

I feel for both Toby and Kate. I don’t think either of them is 100% right or 100% wrong. Toby was wrong for not telling Kate about the LA job offer. I agree with whoever said upthread that he probably used that offer to increase his salary at the SF job, and there was no way the LA job could match it.

However, I’ve been trying to figure out why I am slightly more sympathetic to Toby rather than Kate. For me, I think it’s two reasons: 1) Kate has unrealistic expectations for other people and 2) Kate has yet to come up with a practical solution. Regarding point number one, as soon as Toby said he would be unable to pick her up from the airport, she immediately became all mopey. I mean, shit happens. It’s not as if it’s 1960, and she has no other way to get from the airport to the apartment. Lyft, Uber, and taxis exist. She started off the weekend with a bad taste in her mouth. Then, Toby has planned this huge weekend with her, and all she wants to do is stay inside and watch Netflix. The fuck? WHO travels to a city for the first time and wants to spend the majority or significant part of their trip inside?! That doesn’t even make sense! If you are entertaining the notion of moving to another city, wouldn’t you want to see as much of it as possible? I could understand it if she were regularly traveling up there on the weekends, so a one time Netflix and chill weekend wouldn’t matter. However, that isn’t what is happening. Next, she seemed pissy about Toby calling a Lyft to take them to the party. Hell, I would’ve been more offended if he’d expected me to walk to a party up a hill while I was wearing a cocktail dress. Toby is not a mind reader. Finally, to leave a work party without saying goodbye to everyone was childish and stupid. Toby is your source of income. Why would you want to piss off the people he works with and for?? Even when Beth heard that shitty voicemail Randall sent to her when she was on the way to that house in S3, she managed to act like a decent guest for the duration of the visit. All that being said, the real put off is that she kept imagining old Toby. It’s as if in Kate’s world, people are not allowed to change. If people do change, then she is resentful. To stay the same person for years on end is impossible to live up to, and no one should expect that from anyone else.
 

Regarding point number two, Kate has not offered up a practical solution for how they can live in LA. While I know Toby had a job offer in LA that he could have accepted, I don’t understand why they should be basing their living situation off of the parent that is making the least amount of money. Money isn’t everything; I understand that. I know that just because one spouse is making the most money doesn’t mean that they can unilaterally make decisions in the family. However, for any married couple that I’ve known who have decided to move, it was due to the spouse getting a higher paying job than the other spouse. If there were a realistic way that they could live in LA on her salary or if she has some other solution, then she should offer that. To me, this situation is entirely different from Beth and Randall’s situation a couple of years ago. Beth and Randall had comparable salaries/earning potential. Beth was able to follow her passion because they figured out a way to afford it. Was I pissed on Beth’s behalf that Randall was making major decisions without consulting her? Yes, but the circumstances are different from Toby and Kate.

 

That all being said, I think it’s a plot contrivance that Toby’s job has him going into the office, and it’s annoying. However, if he were working remotely in LA, I have a feeling that things wouldn’t be much different.

Kate didn't leave the party without saying goodbye.   She excused herself and went outside to cool down.  We didn't see her and Toby say their goodbye, but that doesn't mean that didn't happen.   There would have been some time between her telling Toby they needed to leave because their Lyft was waiting for them.   This was also a party where Toby never intended to stay for the duration.  He did make dinner reservations for after.  Those could have been canceled after Kate asked for a more chill visit.  Kate wasn't asking for them to stay inside the whole weekend watching Netflix.   What she was asking for was a less rigid schedule.  Toby had the whole day planned down to the minute as he crammed in all the things he loves about SF.  They still did make it to the bridge to place the KATOBY lock on it, and conveniently walk by the house Toby wants.  His plan never took Kate and what she wanted into account.   Which is a theme with Toby.  

You say that Kate is not offering any practical solutions, but I am seeing Toby not giving her the room to offer a solution.   He wants to be the one who solves the family's problems.   When Kate was asking Toby about the salary of the job in LA, she knew there was going to be a full-time (?) position opening up at her school.  She may have had a solution to the loss in salary for Toby, but he would not let her speak.  It might not have been, but she can't tell Toby about it if he is unwilling to listen. 

[Rootbeer]

6 hours ago, himela said:

I'm afraid though that Kate's only way to stand on her own feet and become a person who can survive and be happy is only by being single for some time. I think that Toby just replaced her dad being her carrier in life, the person who fulfills her every wish, who has to be careful how to talk to her not to hurt her feelings, who has to support her. If Kate moves to SF with Toby and the kids, she will become that person again who is dependent on Toby for her happiness. I think Kate finally realized that she was doing it all wrong all along; she had to be happy by herself first in order to be happy with another person. And maybe this is the work she will do with herself in the following 4-5 years until she marries Mean Jerk.

It's too bad that Kate didn't realize all of this before she had 2 kids who are going to be deeply affected by her actions.  Putting her personal growth ahead of her kids' best interest isn't the sort of self improvement plan most people would seek.  I am really bothered by the fact that it has only been a couple months and she is ready to chuck the marriage without even trying to find a way to salvage the relationship.  Plenty of marriages evolve over time as one partner grows and matures; Toby has made some big  personal changes since they married, I don't see why Kate cannot get into therapy and work on her life including her marriage.  Instead, she expects Toby to do all the compromising while she unrealistically expects them to stay in LA so she can work part time for minimum wage because she is stuck in a rut.

Considering Kate lost her father as a teen and has spent more than 20 years spinning her wheels, refusing to grow up; it's pretty sad that she seems so quick to divorce her husband and turn him into a long-distance Daddy although, in real life, I expect that Toby would find a way to move back to LA so he has easier access to his kids if they divorce.

Quote

 His plan never took Kate and what she wanted into account.   Which is a theme with Toby.  

That theme is a duet.  Kate hasn't shown herself to care what Toby wants, either.  She wants her own way in all things, just like Daddy used to do for her.  

Edited March 25, 2022 by Rootbeer

[LexieLily]

4 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

It's too bad that Kate didn't realize all of this before she had 2 kids who are going to be deeply affected by her actions.  Putting her personal growth ahead of her kids' best interest doesn't really sound like she'll be a better person for it.  I am really bothered by the fact that it has only been a couple months and she is ready to chuck the marriage without even trying to find a way to salvage the relationship.  Plenty of marriages evolve over time as one partner grows and matures; Toby has made some personal changes since they married, I don't see why Kate cannot get into therapy and work on her life including her marriage.

Considering Kate lost her father as a teen and has spent more than 20 years spinning her wheels, refusing to grow up; it's pretty sad that she seems so quick to divorce her husband and turn him into a long-distance Daddy although, in real life, I expect that Toby would find a way to move back to LA so he has easier access to his kids if they divorce.

Kate would be resentful that Toby moved back to LA to have easier access to his kids, but not for her/to be with her.

[Rootbeer]

13 minutes ago, LexieLily said:

Kate would be resentful that Toby moved back to LA to have easier access to his kids, but not for her/to be with her.

Kate is resentful that Toby loves his new job as well as San Francisco,  He was supposed to hate it because she does. She's also seemingly resentful that he changed his lifestyle after his heart attack and has evolved as a person and made some positive strides in dealing with his depression .  She was resentful when he didn't enjoy being a stay at home dad, when they couldn't survive without him finding a decent full-time gig, when the only job he could find was hundreds of miles away.  Resentful is her default mode. 

The fact is, that, if they divorce, Toby will still have to commute down to LA to see his children regularly, but he will now need a place to stay while he visits.  Meanwhile he will be paying alimony and child support.  Both kids are too small to fly to San Francisco on their own and lord knows, Kate isn't going to be bringing them back and forth.  In the end, I think Toby is going to figure out a way to be with his kids and that means he is probably going to find a job in LA.  Kate seems to have already left the marriage; I expect that the divorce will be her idea and she won't consider counseling or any attempt at reconciliation.  But, yeah, I suppose she will still blame Toby, if only he got the job in LA while they were still married... Except it is pretty clear that that isn't the real issue between them anyway,

Quote

When Kate was asking Toby about the salary of the job in LA, she knew there was going to be a full-time (?) position opening up at her school.  She may have had a solution to the loss in salary for Toby, but he would not let her speak.  It might not have been, but she can't tell Toby about it if he is unwilling to listen. 

Kate didn't try to tell him about the possible full time teaching job, so I don't think it was Toby's unwillingness to listen that was the entire issue here.  Also, she is a teacher's aide, she does not have the credentials to be a licensed teacher.  In California, the average teacher's aide makes a little over 15 bucks an hour.  So, Kate is working 2 days a week which means she makes about 4600 bucks during the school year, before taxes, When she goes full time, she will make around $24,000, an increase of around $20,000.  It will also mean putting Hailey, at least, in full time daycare and Jack will need part time care.  Even if the job offer in LA was not as bad as Toby implied, Kate's entire salary is going to be used for child care,  There is no way she can supplement their income, no matter how many hours she works.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Rootbeer

[MBayGal]

11 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

Even if they do divorce, they're going to be jointly parenting their kids for the next couple decades and they're going to need to do a better job of communicating.

As a friend told me when I was newly divorced, If you have children, you are never divorced FROM him, you are divorced TO him. 

[Quiet1]

Toby can tell Kate that he'll move back to LA, she can teach full time & he'll go back to being the one home with the kids. Maybe he realizes how much he missed it and Kevin can subsidize their lifestyle. 

[MBayGal]

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

When Kate was asking Toby about the salary of the job in LA, she knew there was going to be a full-time (?) position opening up at her school.  She may have had a solution to the loss in salary for Toby, but he would not let her speak.

The salary for full-time job at a private school for blind children would no way be close to that of someone doing whatever it is Toby does.  And they would have to put both children in day care, which would probably eat most or all of Kate's salary.  

I see @Rootbeer beat me to this point, and explained it more completely than I did.  

Edited March 25, 2022 by MBayGal

[Dowel Jones]

I will give props to the writers for at least one lighthearted moment (to me):

Toby:  Whatever you do, don't ask anyone what they do here.

Kate (to coder):  So, what do you do?

Coder:  You know how companies have repetitive tasks such as accountingandbudgetingandllthoseothermundanechoresWellIwritearchitechturetocombinesubroutinestoworkoffthesamemachinelanguagetechmumbojumboC++.....

Kate (looking at Toby):  Mr. Wizard?  Help, Mr. Wizard!

Edited March 25, 2022 by Dowel Jones

[CrystalBlue]

2 hours ago, Quiet1 said:

Toby can tell Kate that he'll move back to LA, she can teach full time & he'll go back to being the one home with the kids. Maybe he realizes how much he missed it and Kevin can subsidize their lifestyle. 

Joking aside, Toby already made it clear that he does not want to be a househusband and stay-at-home-dad.  Two married people shouldn't have anyone else subsidizing their lifestyle, especially after one against-all-odds pregnancy that wasn't cheap and adopting another baby.  But as long as Kate is happy, that's what matters!  😃

[debraran]

7 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So true. Totally not likely from a child that age in that situation.  Them together did remind me of my childhood, though. My dad taught me to swim when I was about her age.  I actually caught on pretty quick.  
 

What was it with little Kate?  Did she have this inherent insecurity, obstinate personality from birth?

I thought they were showing how attached she was to her dad (but not that much to put her face in.) I took lessons, had fear of diving and no one forced me. My mom figured if I learned to swim and stay above water, I was fine. I still don't enjoy it like others, , but will go in to cool off or float etc. Their pressure bothered me and Jack's line about "Kevin being a man one day?" when Rebecca said he was a child. They let that go but I was more perplexed than Rebecca's face. Jack could be such a jerk, I don't know why he was so adored.

Edited March 25, 2022 by debraran

[JudyObscure]

7 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

Kate's entire salary is going to be used for child care, 

 

5 hours ago, MBayGal said:

And they would have to put both children in day care, which would probably eat most or all of Kate's salary.  

Yes. That is the cold hard truth that is so often ignored in TV-Land.

If Kate thinks she's putting her ducks in a row by applying for that job she's sure to get, then she's really just swimming away from the ducks.  Can that teenage girl babysit full time?  Is Rebecca, who we've already established can't be alone with the children, going to do it? Is Madison's nanny going to want to double her work load?  Do any of them know enough about raising a blind child?

Who is going to take care of Jack's special needs as thoughtfully and carefully as we saw Kate doing on the way to the park?  Who, if anyone, is ever going to pay any attention to Hailey who seemed to have been adopted with a job to do? 

Kate desperately wanted to have those children and, let's just say it, the reason he's blind is she made an informed decision to take a big risk with his life as well as her own.  Now, it is her job to give him as good a start as she can and that means (gasp!) staying home for the next few years and raising her own damn children.  They aren't her mother's, they aren't Kevin's, they aren't that teenager's, they're hers and Toby's.

 

3 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

Two married people shouldn't have anyone else subsidizing their lifestyle, especially after one against-all-odds pregnancy that wasn't cheap and adopting another baby.

Exactly.  

[himela]

34 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Now, it is her job to give him as good a start as she can and that means (gasp!) staying home for the next few years and raising her own damn children. 

Doesn't the same go for Toby?

I think that Kate has enough people and financial sources to help her live her life as divorced just fine. Kevin could pay a full time nanny for her. Rebecca and Miguel could sell their house and go live with her to help her both with the kids and financially at least until the house Kevin is building for them is ready. She will be getting money from Toby for the kids. She is not a woman who has nowhere to turn to. She tried for the relationship and it failed. She is not the first nor the last one to get a divorce.

[Johnny Dollar]

Toby - “Babe. This job is so much more than I thought. I’m making several hundred thousand dollars a year, they are giving me stock options, we can afford a multi million dollar home in San Francisco. The house even has room for your mom and Miguel. We can afford to get Jack the best education and assistance available. I am actually happy for the first time in a long time!”

Kate - “Babe. Why can’t you be the fat, suicidal, loser who acts like a clown that I fell in love with. And why are you allowed to be happy. BTW I’m happy now.”

And this is the person that PMJ will fall in love with? The guy who dumped super models because they bored him? I wonder which episode he hits his head in?

[BlancheDevoreaux]

8 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Kate didn't leave the party without saying goodbye.   She excused herself and went outside to cool down.  We didn't see her and Toby say their goodbye, but that doesn't mean that didn't happen.   There would have been some time between her telling Toby they needed to leave because their Lyft was waiting for them.   This was also a party where Toby never intended to stay for the duration.  He did make dinner reservations for after.  Those could have been canceled after Kate asked for a more chill visit.  Kate wasn't asking for them to stay inside the whole weekend watching Netflix.   What she was asking for was a less rigid schedule.  Toby had the whole day planned down to the minute as he crammed in all the things he loves about SF.  They still did make it to the bridge to place the KATOBY lock on it, and conveniently walk by the house Toby wants.  His plan never took Kate and what she wanted into account.   Which is a theme with Toby.  

You say that Kate is not offering any practical solutions, but I am seeing Toby not giving her the room to offer a solution.   He wants to be the one who solves the family's problems.   When Kate was asking Toby about the salary of the job in LA, she knew there was going to be a full-time (?) position opening up at her school.  She may have had a solution to the loss in salary for Toby, but he would not let her speak.  It might not have been, but she can't tell Toby about it if he is unwilling to listen. 

When Kate told Toby they had to leave, he said he just needed to find his boss and tell him goodbye and KAte said, "No, we have to leave now" and didn't allow him to say goodbye to anyone except the coworkers he was talking to. It was rude.

And, as others have said, she wasn't going to be making enough as a teacher at a school for the blind for Toby to stay home, which he didn't want to do, anyway, and even if her salary combined with his would equal what he made in San Francisco, she didn't have the job offer whereas he did have the one in San Francisco. Plus, he has said how he is finally in a job where he is valued and respected. I completely get him not wanting to roll the dice on an unknown without the financial reward being high enough to justify it.

[JudyObscure]

21 minutes ago, himela said:

Doesn't the same go for Toby?

Yes and he did that for some time, but they were both in agreement that he should find a job if he could and then they would switch roles.

Edited March 25, 2022 by JudyObscure

[JudyObscure]

33 minutes ago, himela said:

Kevin could pay a full time nanny for her. Rebecca and Miguel could sell their house and go live with her to help her both with the kids and financially at least until the house Kevin is building for them is ready. She will be getting money from Toby for the kids.

Why in the world should Kevin be supporting his married sister?  I have two older brothers, both millionaires, one was an IBM manager and one did a job like Toby's in San Francisco for years.  He once mentioned his bonus for working on New Year's Eve and it was more than my annual salary.  It never occurred to me to ask either of them for money even when I was divorced living on minimum wage.  As for asking Rebecca and Miguel to add caring for two toddlers to dealing with Alzheimer's, I find that outrageous.  They have enough on their plate. Why should they raise Kate's children for her?

Edited March 25, 2022 by JudyObscure
Sorry couldn't edit them together.

[himela]

2 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Why in the world should Kevin be supporting his married sister?  I have two older brothers, both millionaires, one was an IBM manager and one did a job like Toby's in San Francisco for years.  He once mentioned his bonus for working on New Year's Eve and it was more than my annual salary.  It never occurred to me to ask either of them for money even when I was divorced living on minimum wage.  As for asking Rebecca and Miguel to add caring for two toddlers to dealing with Alzheimer's, I find that outrageous.  They have enough on their plate. Why should they raise Kate's children for her?

I'm just saying Kate has options once she gets divorced. She and the kids won't find themselves starving or being homeless. This was a reply to someone saying that Kate should consider it very carefully if she wants to leave Toby because their lives (hers and the kids') would be terrible and I said that, no it wouldn't be terrible. She has a support system around her even for a couple of years until things get better with covid and her job and the kids go to school and so on.

[PepSinger]

34 minutes ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

9 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Kate didn't leave the party without saying goodbye.   She excused herself and went outside to cool down.  We didn't see her and Toby say their goodbye, but that doesn't mean that didn't happen.   There would have been some time between her telling Toby they needed to leave because their Lyft was waiting for them.   This was also a party where Toby never intended to stay for the duration.  He did make dinner reservations for after.  Those could have been canceled after Kate asked for a more chill visit.  Kate wasn't asking for them to stay inside the whole weekend watching Netflix.   What she was asking for was a less rigid schedule.  Toby had the whole day planned down to the minute as he crammed in all the things he loves about SF.  They still did make it to the bridge to place the KATOBY lock on it, and conveniently walk by the house Toby wants.  His plan never took Kate and what she wanted into account.   Which is a theme with Toby.  

You say that Kate is not offering any practical solutions, but I am seeing Toby not giving her the room to offer a solution.   He wants to be the one who solves the family's problems.   When Kate was asking Toby about the salary of the job in LA, she knew there was going to be a full-time (?) position opening up at her school.  She may have had a solution to the loss in salary for Toby, but he would not let her speak.  It might not have been, but she can't tell Toby about it if he is unwilling to listen. 

Expand  

When Kate told Toby they had to leave, he said he just needed to find his boss and tell him goodbye and KAte said, "No, we have to leave now" and didn't allow him to say goodbye to anyone except the coworkers he was talking to. It was rude.

Thank you! I knew I wasn’t crazy, LOL. I literally said out loud when I was watching, “That’s really fucking rude.” Now, I don’t have to go back and rewatch that part.

[CdrJanny]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

Kate desperately wanted to have those children and, let's just say it, the reason he's blind is she made an informed decision to take a big risk with his life as well as her own. 

This.  Thank you for addressing one of the elephants in the room.

[CdrJanny]

Do we know for certain that the retiring Sheila was a full-time employee of the music school for the blind?

[Crs97]

Can I please be a fly on the wall when Kate tells Miguel and Rebecca that she is divorcing Toby because she doesn’t want to move to SF and then asks them to sell their house and move in with her and pay all her bills and babysit the kids, but then reminds Miguel that Rebecca can never, ever be alone with them?  I think it might be the one time Miguel explodes, and I would very much like to see that.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Crs97

[Ohiopirate02]

7 hours ago, MBayGal said:

The salary for full-time job at a private school for blind children would no way be close to that of someone doing whatever it is Toby does.  And they would have to put both children in day care, which would probably eat most or all of Kate's salary.  

I see @Rootbeer beat me to this point, and explained it more completely than I did.  

I was never implying that Toby would not work in LA.  What I was saying is that Kate knew of a higher paying job opportunity at the school.  Toby is fretting about not making enough money at the job he turned down, but he never said what the salary difference was.  If it was something under $50,000, then Kate's new job would help to lessen the difference.  Then they could decide if that pay cut was worth it after weighing the costs of living in LA vs the costs of living in SF.  But, Toby crunched the numbers by himself and told Kate it was his way or the highway instead of doing this together.

[Johnny Dollar]

It was quite awkward the way the writers tried to turn Toby into a villain. As someone said upthread, many viewers find the character much more likable than his wife, even though she is Pearson royalty. They should’ve handled his turn like this:

”On the next explosive episode of This Is Us, despite the obvious impossibility due to him not being born yet, Toby is revealed to be The Zodiac Killer. His wife Kate, a member of the beloved Pearson Family, spent five years of her life pretending to be a self-absorbed, grouchy shrew, to finally bring one of the most notorious serial killers to justice. When asked to comment, Kate merely said “Just following in my dad’s footsteps when he single handedly won the Vietnam War and brought the World Series to Pittsburgh.””

[Rootbeer]

1 hour ago, himela said:

Doesn't the same go for Toby?

I think that Kate has enough people and financial sources to help her live her life as divorced just fine. Kevin could pay a full time nanny for her. Rebecca and Miguel could sell their house and go live with her to help her both with the kids and financially at least until the house Kevin is building for them is ready. She will be getting money from Toby for the kids. She is not a woman who has nowhere to turn to. She tried for the relationship and it failed. She is not the first nor the last one to get a divorce.

It would be the same for Toby if all things are equal, but they are not.  Toby has a well paying job with benefits.  Kate does not.  Her best option is a job that pays minimum wage, during the school year.  Parents face these cold, hard realities every day.  I realize that Kate has an ace in the hole, a wealthy brother who indulges her every whim; but is that really the example she wants for her children?  That, when things get tough, they can expect other people to pick up the slack?  That they don't have to earn their own way in the world because Uncle Kevin will pay the bills?

Also, Kate has made it extremely clear that she considers Toby to be the inferior parent, that she and she alone is capable of taking proper care of their kids, especially Jack.  Toby cannot be at home if only because he would have Kate criticizing his every move. A team player she is not.

I understand that Kate loves her current gig as a teacher's aide for music classes.  She loves music but she didn't make it as a singer, this is a viable option.  That's great, but, maybe now, with two preschoolers, one of them special needs, is not the time to pursue it.  Maybe she could look into some virtual classes to help her to eventually get her teaching credentials so she could go to work once the kids are in school full time.

While I think Kate is entitled to a divorce if she wants one; I also see this as part of her pattern.  She immediately gives up when things get tough.  She wants to be a singer, she auditions and discovers that her voice is not good enough.  She doesn't take lessons or work on her stage presence; she just quits at the first obstacle.  Seems like the same thing with the marriage; things got tough and she wants to bail without even trying to work at it.

[Rootbeer]

24 minutes ago, CdrJanny said:

Do we know for certain that the retiring Sheila was a full-time employee of the music school for the blind?

Do we know for sure that Kate is qualified to take her place?  We have no idea what position she held, let alone whether Kate has a realistic chance to replace her. What we do know is that Kate has no specific qualifications to teach, which means the job she is trying to get doesn't pay any better than the one she has and that working more hours won't solve anything as she doesn't make enough to support herself, let alone the kids.  She would barely make enough to cover child care.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Rootbeer

[himela]

32 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

Can I please be a fly on the wall when Kate tells Miguel and Rebecca that she is divorcing Toby because she doesn’t want to move to SF and then asks them to sell their house and move in with her and pay all her bills and babysit the kids, but then reminds Miguel that Rebecca can never, ever be alone with them?  I think it might be the one time Miguel explodes, and I would very much like to see that.

Maybe this only happens in my country but many grandparents (who are not really old or with a very damaged health) would love to help raise their grandkids. What else is better for Rebecca especially knowing that her days are numbered than be close to her grandchildren? Many grandparents in my country do help raise the grandkids that's why I don't find it that weird but maybe in the US this is not something people use to do.

[CdrJanny]

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I was never implying that Toby would not work in LA.  What I was saying is that Kate knew of a higher paying job opportunity at the school.  Toby is fretting about not making enough money at the job he turned down, but he never said what the salary difference was.  If it was something under $50,000, then Kate's new job would help to lessen the difference.  Then they could decide if that pay cut was worth it after weighing the costs of living in LA vs the costs of living in SF.  But, Toby crunched the numbers by himself and told Kate it was his way or the highway instead of doing this together.

Why shouldn't he?  He didn't know there was any kind of job opening at the music school for the blind.  It not as if Kate has ever had a well-paying, full-time professional job in her life.  Why should Toby presume that she would ever choose to have one?

Edited March 25, 2022 by CdrJanny

[CountryGirl]

49 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I was never implying that Toby would not work in LA.  What I was saying is that Kate knew of a higher paying job opportunity at the school.  Toby is fretting about not making enough money at the job he turned down, but he never said what the salary difference was.  If it was something under $50,000, then Kate's new job would help to lessen the difference.  Then they could decide if that pay cut was worth it after weighing the costs of living in LA vs the costs of living in SF.  But, Toby crunched the numbers by himself and told Kate it was his way or the highway instead of doing this together.

This is exactly how I read it from the get-go. Not that Kate's potential new salary would replace Toby's current one but help to off-set the difference between his current one and the job in LA. It remains to be seen if they have that conversation for many reasons (would Kate even still pursue it, would she get an offer, would she accept - that's a lot of ifs), but certainly given Toby's ultimatum at the end of the episode, I can see why she didn't raise the topic (which I don't believe she only thought of it at the top of the hill) before then.

[Empress1]

6 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

Joking aside, Toby already made it clear that he does not want to be a househusband and stay-at-home-dad.  Two married people shouldn't have anyone else subsidizing their lifestyle, especially after one against-all-odds pregnancy that wasn't cheap and adopting another baby.  But as long as Kate is happy, that's what matters!  😃

Yeah, I have a few friends who were stay-at-home parents by circumstance, not by choice, and they hated it. It’s not for everyone and I don’t judge Toby at all for not liking it. I also know people who have well-paying jobs that they hate but stay in for the good of the family. Toby has a well-paying job he loves, which is really the best possible outcome.

[Rootbeer]

24 minutes ago, himela said:

Maybe this only happens in my country but many grandparents (who are not really old or with a very damaged health) would love to help raise their grandkids. What else is better for Rebecca especially knowing that her days are numbered than be close to her grandchildren? Many grandparents in my country do help raise the grandkids that's why I don't find it that weird but maybe in the US this is not something people use to do.

Kate had already told Rebecca that she is not capable of watching her kids on her own.  And, it appears she probably isn't.  Here in the US, grandparents can and do help with caring for their grandchildren, but the show has already established that, aside from the fact she will be moving out of state in the near future, Rebecca is unable to do that.

Quote

This is exactly how I read it from the get-go. Not that Kate's potential new salary would replace Toby's current one but help to off-set the difference between his current one and the job in LA

Then, maybe Kate should have told him that rather than stomping off in a snit.  If Toby knew that she could perhaps get a job paying enough to offset the difference, perhaps it would have made him rethink things.  However, as we've noted, Kate has no qualifications for a higher paying job and, if she works full time, her salary will pay for child care, which is fine, but not the same as offsetting a difference in salary.  Toby is not the only one in this relationship who doesn't communicate.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Rootbeer

[himela]

5 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

Kate had already told Rebecca that she is not capable of watching her kids on her own.  And, it appears she probably isn't.  Here in the US, grandparents can and do help with caring for their grandchildren, but the show has already established that, aside from the fact she will be moving out of state in the near future, Rebecca is unable to do that.

But Rebecca AND Miguel AND/OR a nanny?

[PepSinger]

10 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Kate wasn't asking for them to stay inside the whole weekend watching Netflix.   What she was asking for was a less rigid schedule.  Toby had the whole day planned down to the minute as he crammed in all the things he loves about SF.  They still did make it to the bridge to place the KATOBY lock on it, and conveniently walk by the house Toby wants.  His plan never took Kate and what she wanted into account.   Which is a theme with Toby. 

If Kate wanted a less rigid schedule, then why didn’t she just say that? And I don’t see the problem in Toby planning things that he loved about SF. Isn’t that what people normally do with someone when they introduce them to a new city? When my mom comes and visits me in my major city, I take her to all of the places that I love. I especially leaned in on that during her first visit after my college graduation. I don’t think it’s absurd to show someone all of the things you love about a city. “If I love these things, then I’m sure X will love them too and see why I love being here.” Yes, Toby could’ve asked her what she wanted to do, but why didn’t Kate make any suggestions of her own? That’s the other problem with Kate: she’s reactive instead of proactive. Don’t wait for Toby to ask what you’d like to do. You have Google; you can look things up, and let him know what you’d like to do, too. I’ve done that when I’ve visited my friends in other cities.

Edited March 25, 2022 by PepSinger

[Rootbeer]

8 minutes ago, himela said:

But Rebecca AND Miguel AND/OR a nanny?

Rebecca needs Miguel to be her caregiver.  I think it is expecting a lot for Miguel to care for his failing wife while also managing a blind toddler and a baby.  As for a nanny, who pays for that?  Kate is not making enough to pay for a nanny who would make more in salary than she does.

Also, Rebecca and Miguel are planning to move to Pennsylvania once the house is built.  The foundation is already poured, they're leaving in a year or less, I expect.  For Kate to expect them to put aside their own plans for her convenience would be selfish, IMO.

Quote

Toby could’ve asked her what she wanted to do, but why didn’t Kate make any suggestions of her own? 

This.  All Kate had to do is tell him she felt the schedule was a little ambitious and she wanted to pencil in some down time and they could've picked and chose which things they would do.  But, once again, it is Toby's responsibility to read her mind and, if he doesn't, he has failed.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Rootbeer

[ams1001]

There is an argument to be made for the lower-earning spouse to work even if their salary just covers child care. The longer you are out of the work force, the harder it is to get back in, and the lower your lifetime earnings are. Kate's already behind the curve there as it is. If you work for a few years just to cover child care so you can work, you will develop/retain skills that will likely lead to raises and/or higher-paying job opportunities. In the long run you're better off. Not everyone is comfortable being totally reliant on their spouse's job.

But again, that's something they should be discussing as a couple.