S06.E09: The Hill

[Ohiopirate02]

10 minutes ago, mansonlamps said:

I think I'm missing the point,  do we know that Toby didn't ask these questions and that Kate would have?   Was the audience supposed to listen to a discussion on the she of the HVAC system?  

I was responding to someone who thought Toby mentioning the trampoline was cute and fun after I said that would give me pause.  Toby really thought that was something important to add when he was rattling off the list of pluses his chosen house had.  I was countering with all the other things that are more important than a dangerous toy.  You want to sell me on a house, tell me that the laundry room is convenient, tell me we don't have to worry about the roof or the HVAC, tell me about the glorious soaking tub or walk-in shower, tell me about the glorious woodwork you can only find in a Victorian.  I will admit to me a trampoline is a hazard not a feature.  Toby is trying to sell that particular house on Kate, he should have been focusing on whatever it is that Kate has mentioned wanting in her dream home.  I didn't see him doing that in this case.  

[smartymarty]

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

You want to sell me on a house, tell me that the laundry room is convenient, tell me we don't have to worry about the roof or the HVAC, tell me about the glorious soaking tub or walk-in shower, tell me about the glorious woodwork you can only find in a Victorian.  I will admit to me a trampoline is a hazard not a feature.  Toby is trying to sell that particular house on Kate, he should have been focusing on whatever it is that Kate has mentioned wanting in her dream home.

Again, all things she would see on the tour except for the age of the roof or HVAC, but those are things that are checked by the inspection, with the final sale price negotiated accordingly if repairs need to be made. Also, Toby has seen the house many times -- he may well already know how many years are left on the roof. I think you're wanting to see too much. (I did cringe about the trampoline too, though.)

[peeayebee]

Our neighborhood is filled with backyards that have trampolines. They all have safety nets around the sides. The neighbor dad behind us goes into the trampoline with his boys, one about 4 yrs old, I think, and the other a toddler. The dad is always holding the toddler. And the bouncing is not severe.

Toby or the realtor mentioned some practical things: the house layout, where their bedroom would be close to the kids' (without being too close); the ADU for Rebecca and Miguel; the fact that the previous owners had updated the kitchen and HVAC 5 yrs ago. Then when they walked out Toby said they could put together a pros-and-cons list. Kate, or Toby, could have listed the roof and the age of the house under the cons. Unfortunately, Kate didn't even want to go that far. Yes, Toby blindsided her, but it would have been nice if she had at least done a list with Toby later.

The thing is, of course, that Kate has been stuck, unable to move herself ahead or change course. I just hope that before the end of the series she's able to admit that to Toby and apologize.

[momo]

On 3/22/2022 at 8:03 PM, Madding crowd said:

I’ve never in my life gone to a party and talked about someone’s appearance out loud. Maybe they are used to seeing different types of people and were more interested in getting to know Kate rather than discussing her weight. Why would her weight be the business of anyone at the party anyway? 

They probably gossiped about it afterwards

[Dowel Jones]

5 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Victorians don't have closet space,

An interesting aside:  A relative of mine lives on the side of Mt. Davidson in San Francisco (home of the Dirty Harry Cross scene).  It's an upscale neighborhood, built in the early 20th Century.  An unfortunate feature of the homes was that rich people back then didn't do their own cooking, so the kitchens were often located outside the main house and servants brought the food in.  This presented some major problems, obviously, as times changed and new people moved in, necessitating major renovations. 

5 hours ago, izabella said:

The truth is, most teens graduating high school don't know what they want to do. 

Kate gave a clue to her broken self image when she said (something like) "You guys look at your future and see college and careers.  I look at mine and see nothing.  Completely blank."  All kids have dreams of some sort, but she was just lost from an early age.

[Ohiopirate02]

2 minutes ago, Dowel Jones said:

An interesting aside:  A relative of mine lives on the side of Mt. Davidson in San Francisco (home of the Dirty Harry Cross scene).  It's an upscale neighborhood, built in the early 20th Century.  An unfortunate feature of the homes was that rich people back then didn't do their own cooking, so the kitchens were often located outside the main house and servants brought the food in.  This presented some major problems, obviously, as times changed and new people moved in, necessitating major renovations. 

Kate gave a clue to her broken self image when she said (something like) "You guys look at your future and see college and careers.  I look at mine and see nothing.  Completely blank."  All kids have dreams of some sort, but she was just lost from an early age.

Yeah, homes built before the advent of indoor plumbing tend to have interesting bathrooms, laundry rooms and kitchens.  How those things were added to the home is a crapshoot.  Some of them will have a bedroom that was converted into the main bathroom and it's huge, others well there is a reason why they call it a water closet across the pond.  

I do feel bad for Kate.  Jack's death really affected her and left her aimless.  I was someone who bounced around for a couple of years after getting my undergrad because I didn't feel like I had a path like a Randall.  I did figure it out, but I will admit to being jealous at the people my age around me who had that path.  My dad died when my little brother was an undergrad.  He ended up dropping out and worked full-time during his 20s.  He did decided to go back to school and graduated last year, and now he's a "real" adult working a "real" job.  Things like this happen.  Kate was stagnant for a lot longer than most, but it is understandable.

[Madding crowd]

53 minutes ago, momo said:

They probably gossiped about it afterwards

Yes we don’t know what people did after the party, but  the poster was saying it was unrealistic that no one was gasping out loud or commenting on Kate at the party. I think they have all seen fat people before .

[maggiemae]

Have to say Toby's wardrobe and apartment were very upscale. $$$

And somehow their Jack managed to have his own home and tour on his own.

Doubt it was because Kate could not imagine Jack not being able to manage new environments...even a home.

Kate does Kate regardless of anyone...except her darling daddy that coddled her.

This great love for the Big Three was so unhealthy.

[statsgirl]

What one wants in a house is idiosyncratic. The best house I lived in as an adult was a Victorian that we renovated to suit us exactly. Took a small extra bedroom and made it into a large bathroom/dressing room. Lovely luxurious, better than the newer house I live in now. I wish that I could afford to do it again.

But the house wasn't the real problem, it was just the symbol.

13 hours ago, kathyk24 said:

Kate is also taking Jack to doctor's appointments and early intervention services. If they move to San Fransisco Jack would be on a waiting list for services.

This is the best reason for not moving. The time to teach Jack a new house could be too.

Before I watched this show, I thought it was about a family with two great parents. Now I'm thinking that many of the problems of the Big Three were caused by their parents.

While the clothes and set decor of the 80s flashbacks are spot on, Jack and Rebecca's parenting is more reminiscent of parenting in their parents or grandparents generation, not the post Dr. Spock era.  Take the swimming pool flashback: Kevin, with no patience and no understanding of his abilities, really needed firm understandable boundaries such as "you can use the diving board when you can swim two lengths of the pool on your own" (I stole that from the local pool when I was Kevin's age), not the combination of neglect and handwaving that ended in making him grow up feeling incompetent. Randall was both given too much praise and expected to somewhat step into Jack's shoes for Rebecca after Jack's death, a hard burden for someone with an anxiety disorder while also making him think that he knew better than everyone else. (With Randall, I'm reminded of the book The Omnipotent Child by Thomas Millar which argues that the most frightening thing for a child is to think that they are the ones to make the rules because adults won't.)

Kate was Jack's favourite, treated special but also not given the skills to make her own way in the world. No wonder teenage Kate was unable to see what she wanted for herself in her future while also being allowed to be very nasty to her brother. and mother.

The best time to acquire or change a habit is when  you're already making other changes in your life because that's when new pathways get formed in the brain. Toby made mistakes in his presentation but I think it would be good for Kate to move to SF, to have to figure out what she wants her life to be and go for it. At the least, she could go back to school to be accredited as a teacher herself instead of always being in a following role.

[maggiemae]

Thing is Toby took her to a college of some sort to get her 8 credits. She couldn't do it herself.

Poor, pitiful, spoiled and neglected Kate.

[debraran]

I feel with Kate, they never made a good reason for her insecurity or lack of self esteem. If it was her weight and that alone sometimes makes people insecure, but it can be also a bandaid to cover other things. Why when she was spiraling with married guy or still eating her problems did her brothers or mom just ignore it? I understand not mentioning the 40 pounds she put on after Jack died, but years into it, you can't use that to not say, "What's wrong, how can I help?" Not shaming is one thing, being concerned about over 100 pounds is another. No nagging but just if you want to talk, I'm here.

 

[Crs97]

5 hours ago, statsgirl said:

If they move to San Fransisco Jack would be on a waiting list for services.

We moved cross country when our child who needed services was 18 months old. No wait.  When we moved cross country again they were both over three so under the school umbrella.  Again, it took very little time to schedule the IEP meetings and get them services.  
 

San Francisco has a well-regarded Children’s hospital and Lighthouse for the Blind, a foundation to help people gain independence.  With a little bit of preparation and a few phone calls (which Toby could do), they could all hit the ground running.

[himela]

1 hour ago, debraran said:

"What's wrong, how can I help?" Not shaming is one thing, being concerned about over 100 pounds is another. No nagging but just if you want to talk, I'm here.

Just want to say with all respect that in my opinion being overweight or obese does not automatically mean that something is wrong. I mean, there are more people in the western world at least who are overweight than normal weight. And I don't even want to go to "what is really normal?" and that "normal" weight changes depending on the society and its beauty standards. But I just am sad when people see an overweight or even obese person and just assume that something is wrong with them and if only they would ask and get help, they would become "normal" again. And to be totally honest, is there a person on earth who has zero psychological issues?

[Ohiopirate02]

2 hours ago, debraran said:

I feel with Kate, they never made a good reason for her insecurity or lack of self esteem. If it was her weight and that alone sometimes makes people insecure, but it can be also a bandaid to cover other things. Why when she was spiraling with married guy or still eating her problems did her brothers or mom just ignore it? I understand not mentioning the 40 pounds she put on after Jack died, but years into it, you can't use that to not say, "What's wrong, how can I help?" Not shaming is one thing, being concerned about over 100 pounds is another. No nagging but just if you want to talk, I'm here.

 

Kate did mention to Rebecca the 40 or so pounds she put on after Jack died, Rebecca's response was something along the lines of that's okay, we've all had a bad year.  It's very possible that was the moment where Kate's walls were down and she was asking her mother for help.  Rebecca in her own grief and other issues was not capable of responding in the manner necessary to get Kate help then.  After that moment, Kate's walls went up.  It's a shame Kate did not have a trusted adult like her brothers who she could confide in.  Randall had that other family who's name is escaping me, and Kevin had Sophie's mom.  Kate only had Rebecca.  

[debraran]

2 hours ago, himela said:

Just want to say with all respect that in my opinion being overweight or obese does not automatically mean that something is wrong. I mean, there are more people in the western world at least who are overweight than normal weight. And I don't even want to go to "what is really normal?" and that "normal" weight changes depending on the society and its beauty standards. But I just am sad when people see an overweight or even obese person and just assume that something is wrong with them and if only they would ask and get help, they would become "normal" again. And to be totally honest, is there a person on earth who has zero psychological issues?

They is true, I agree ,but they knew Kate did and she escalated after Jacks death.  Many people just love food but when you go to slightly overweight to gaining over 100 pounds in early 20s many people do have a trigger. 

[mansonlamps]

At what point do we acknowledge that this is a family that they made together,  and, marginal hardships aside, the discussion should have revolved around how they should grow together instead of acting like butthurt teens?

[Guest]

On 4/1/2022 at 6:54 AM, Crs97 said:

We moved cross country when our child who needed services was 18 months old. No wait.  When we moved cross country again they were both over three so under the school umbrella.  Again, it took very little time to schedule the IEP meetings and get them services.  
 

San Francisco has a well-regarded Children’s hospital and Lighthouse for the Blind, a foundation to help people gain independence.  With a little bit of preparation and a few phone calls (which Toby could do), they could all hit the ground running.

Money also helps, which Toby’s job seems to provide plenty of. The wait for the district funded services is often lengthy, but for private services, usually much less.

[qtpye]

On 4/1/2022 at 12:48 AM, statsgirl said:

 

Before I watched this show, I thought it was about a family with two great parents. Now I'm thinking that many of the problems of the Big Three were caused by their parents.

While the clothes and set decor of the 80s flashbacks are spot on, Jack and Rebecca's parenting is more reminiscent of parenting in their parents or grandparents generation, not the post Dr. Spock era.  Take the swimming pool flashback: Kevin, with no patience and no understanding of his abilities, really needed firm understandable boundaries such as "you can use the diving board when you can swim two lengths of the pool on your own" (I stole that from the local pool when I was Kevin's age), not the combination of neglect and handwaving that ended in making him grow up feeling incompetent. Randall was both given too much praise and expected to somewhat step into Jack's shoes for Rebecca after Jack's death, a hard burden for someone with an anxiety disorder while also making him think that he knew better than everyone else. (With Randall, I'm reminded of the book The Omnipotent Child by Thomas Millar which argues that the most frightening thing for a child is to think that they are the ones to make the rules because adults won't.)

Kate was Jack's favourite, treated special but also not given the skills to make her own way in the world. No wonder teenage Kate was unable to see what she wanted for herself in her future while also being allowed to be very nasty to her brother. and mother.

 

It was crazy to me that Jack and Rebecca were acting like it was the 1950's and Kate did not need any skills to get through life. They acted like it was a given that she would get married and some man would take financial care of her.

I am a little younger than Kate (37) and my parents always taught me to be financially independent, They had seen women in previous generations get abused and be trapped because they did not even know how to do things like open a bank account in their own name.

Even Kate's one interest, singing, was a crapshoot at best. It is very hard to make a living as a singer and most people need to do something else to support themselves. Rebecca should know this first hand.

Quote

I feel with Kate, they never made a good reason for her insecurity or lack of self esteem. If it was her weight and that alone sometimes makes people insecure, but it can be also a bandaid to cover other things. Why when she was spiraling with married guy or still eating her problems did her brothers or mom just ignore it? I understand not mentioning the 40 pounds she put on after Jack died, but years into it, you can't use that to not say, "What's wrong, how can I help?" Not shaming is one thing, being concerned about over 100 pounds is another. No nagging but just if you want to talk, I'm here.

When Kate was small enough to fit into a size 6 (this was when she went dress shopping for a dance with Rebecca) she was still filled with self-hate.  I think this was when Jack was still alive. So as much as, Kate herself might want to pin all her issues on Jack's death and her subsequent weight gain, there seems to have been self-loathing from even before her father died.

[himela]

It's hard to be different than your siblings and be considered "less" than them. My aunt has 5 daughters, the 4 of them are exactly like her, blonde with stunning blue eyes, and the one of them took after her father and she is brunette with beautiful brown eyes. I can't put to words how bad she has always been feeling about it. She was feeling she was the ugly one in the family while the truth is that she has a unique beauty. She even has psychological issues with this matter.

So I do understand Kate who always felt bad about her brothers and her mother being skinny.

[debraran]

12 hours ago, qtpye said:

It was crazy to me that Jack and Rebecca were acting like it was the 1950's and Kate did not need any skills to get through life. They acted like it was a given that she would get married and some man would take financial care of her.

I am a little younger than Kate (37) and my parents always taught me to be financially independent, They had seen women in previous generations get abused and be trapped because they did not even know how to do things like open a bank account in their own name.

Even Kate's one interest, singing, was a crapshoot at best. It is very hard to make a living as a singer and most people need to do something else to support themselves. Rebecca should know this first hand.

When Kate was small enough to fit into a size 6 (this was when she went dress shopping for a dance with Rebecca) she was still filled with self-hate.  I think this was when Jack was still alive. So as much as, Kate herself might want to pin all her issues on Jack's death and her subsequent weight gain, there seems to have been self-loathing from even before her father died.

That's another way the show with so many episodes makes you want to forget things. I never bought the huge gain from her dad dying. She wasn't in a good place much before .I caught in the episode where they were all filling out college applications, Rebecca was very interested in Randall's, Kevin had his scholarship still, but it was a "by the way' sounding rushed sentance to Kate "Did you do yours yet?" I don't think a GC in their TV land school or anyone in the family helped her. She never should just apply to one school and have backups. Being insecure was one thing, I get that but she was paralyzed. Would have been nice to see her at college and having someone believe in her but not be "family nice" But that's not the way the scripts had to go.

 

I amazed that although my mom was a mom with kids in the 60's, women did get married young, many of my friends had parents (maybe with unhappier marriages) told their daughters to take care of themselves getting a skill. One woman who is 68 now told me her mom and dad were both alcoholics but told all 5 girls to pick something. She did Xray, others teaching and nursing, most with scholarships. I told her that her life was full of uncertainty and unhappy moments but she gave them a gift with that. She got paid the most but all got more than secretarial or waitress's made. They also learned they could do things alone and not count on leaning on someone all the time.

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by debraran

[KittyQ]

On 3/22/2022 at 7:20 PM, DoubleUTeeEff said:

It seems to me that they've both carved out lives for themselves that they really like and neither is willing to sacrifice their own happiness to stay together as a family. That's really the crux of it

This is one of the dangers of long-distance relationships. It is natural for people to settle into a new existence, making friends, having new experiences, and it is hard to maintain enthusiasm for the old places and experiences without a lot of energy and cooperation from the partner. Eventually, someone (ideally both partners) needs to make compromises for the sake of the relationship. If there is a defined time frame for the separation, it is easier for everyone to work towards a happier resolution. 

[Ohmo]

I'm behind and just finished this episode.  If it was designed to make me hate Kate, then it did an excellent job.  She annoyed me at the pool, and she annoyed me with Toby.

Your future doesn't just happen, Kate.  One of your brothers was in college, and the other one was acting.  College wasn't Kevin's thing either, so he did something else.  She could have done the same type of thing.  Find a non-college job.

Toby isn't wrong.  If he has the means to get Jack what he needs, it's going to be A LOT easier if Toby (or let's be honest, Uncle Kevin) can make that happen with private resources.  Never mind that Kate could get a job working with blind children in San Francisco.

And I hate to break it to you, Kate, but Jack will be dealing with the accessibility of spaces for his ENTIRE life.  They'll be houses, middle schools, high schools, dorm rooms, apartments, etc.  That's just life.  Most disabled people do not live in one house for their entire lives.

[Ohmo]

On 3/22/2022 at 12:41 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

This episode was co-written by Chrissy.

That's impressive....that Chrissy wrote an episode that makes me side against her character so strongly.  About the only thing I agree with Kate about is that Toby should have talked to her about the LA job...but I also understand why he didn't.

[Ohmo]

On 3/22/2022 at 11:18 PM, txhorns79 said:

I think Toby lost me at the end when he was basically telling Kate they would what he wanted, and kind of presented it to her as though she had no real choice.  Everything he was saying might be correct, but he's done a terrible job of presenting any of this to Kate.

I have no problem with that because I don't at all see it as what he wanted.  It's what is their reality, and he's tried over and over again to do it the soft way, and Kate isn't on board.  So, he went with "This needs to happen," and he's right. 

He has never said that Kate shouldn't work.  She can work in SF.  I don't think he's AT ALL saying that she doesn't have a choice, but he's trying to get her to see the reality of her choice.  Toby has a good job, which will provide things for Jack that will make Jack's life easier, which will in turn make Kate, Toby, and Hailey's life easier.

And Old Toby who she's so in love with?  Old Toby reminds me of a lot of parents who bail on their disabled kid the moment they're born because the person just can't handle it.

[Ohmo]

On 3/23/2022 at 7:26 AM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

It was too much to expect Kate to agree to buy a house in 2 days no matter what research he has done, but he doesn't seem to have done any, because he is sure he is right.

In this case, he IS right.  That specific house is not the issue, but it's about the overall situation.  I strongly disagree with those who say that he's sprang all of this on her.  None of this should be news to her.  They've been doing this for months.  What did she think was going to happen---that he was going to come back to LA for less money?

I'm SURE he thought that when she actually said that she wanted to go to SF that she had finally realized that's where their future was...so that's why he lined up the house.  If she didn't like it, he probably would have suggested others, but she's still oblivious to the reality.

Toby is not wrong...any disability technology for any disability ain't cheap.  It costs M-O-N-E-Y, and the job that makes more M-O-N-E-Y is Toby's job in SF.

[Ohmo]

On 3/23/2022 at 10:28 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

I feel like Toby is manipulating Kate here with this line of thinking.  If Old Toby was suicidal, she had no idea.  He never communicated this with her. 

I don't think that's what he was telling her.  I think what he was saying was that the idealized guy that she likes in her mind was actually a guy that he didn't like...and a guy that he's glad that he no longer is.  To hear her say that she likes a guy that he no longer is instead of the guy he is now was hurtful to him because he's so much happier.  It's not about what she knew. It's about what he has become, and he's become something she no longer wants. She wants the worst of what he saw himself, not the best.

[Ohmo]

On 3/23/2022 at 3:16 PM, CountryGirl said:

He is going worst case scenario instead of (again) communicating with his wife who works with blind kids. 

I disagree.  What Toby is doing is thinking about the future. Kate does work with blind students, but they are still fairly young.  She doesn't have that much experience yet. Toby is thinking and planning for things like when Jack is in high-school or college and beyond....when costs for assistive technology become higher and things become much more complex.

Kate works with her students in a music class, not a standard academic class where her students may indeed use assistive technology.  I don't think it's accurate to say that she has this wealth of knowledge that Toby doesn't.  She may have anecdotal knowledge about her students, but that isn't going to necessarily apply to Jack in the future.

I'm a disabled adult, and I was a disabled child.  What Toby is doing makes complete sense to me and is behavior I've seen from many parents who have disabled children.  You plan very far out...decades even...you just do.  And what you term "worst case" scenarios, I term "real-life scenarios."  Plan as if Jack needs a lot of assistance, and then back off of that as needed if he doesn't require it. That's what I see Toby doing.

[Crs97]

13 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

I'm a disabled adult, and I was a disabled child.  What Toby is doing makes complete sense to me and is behavior I've seen from many parents who have disabled children.  You plan very far out...decades even...you just do.  And what you term "worst case" scenarios, I term "real-life scenarios."

Thank you for your perspective, Ohmo.  That is what we’ve been doing.

When people tell us we are overthinking something or are silly to focus on the worst possibility because there is only a 1% chance of that bad outcome, I end up having to explain that we have already experienced the 1% with birth complications and surgeries gone bad.  We live in the 1%.  People just don’t understand.

[Ohmo]

On 3/25/2022 at 8:08 AM, JudyObscure said:

Why in the world should Kevin be supporting his married sister?  I

In this case, Kevin's been very specific about wanting to spend money on his family.  He's said so several times.  Otherwise, I agree with you.  He shouldn't be expected to do it, but he has always wanted to do that.

[Ohmo]

On 3/23/2022 at 4:58 PM, CountryGirl said:

And if Toby had done any sort of real research, he would know the state assists with learning aids.

I tried posting a response to this, but something happened, so I will try again.  This is an assumption that all states handle expenses for all disabled children, and it perpetuates ableism about disability and poverty.  Not every family wants that for themselves or their child. There is already a huge stereotype that disability equals poverty and that disabled people are "paid for" by non-disabled people.

Toby's job gives him a certain level of means...significant means, and he specifically said that he wanted Jack to have the life he wants. In other words, that Jack isn't broke.  Toby wants to position Jack NOW as a child so that he has the means and capability to NOT be an impoverished adult, and the flash forward tells us Jack is quite wealthy, which I utterly adore.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Ohmo

[Kdawg82]

I actually REALLY liked this episode. Kate & Toby have realistic arguments. The back & forth at the sterile apartment was well done. Glad to see Kate taking the hill metaphorically & literally. The Toby alter-ego was good. It's true the change was so gradual & with integrating the children, weight-loss, job hunt to actual job, you don't notice it as starkly how he's changed. Glad they didn't sugar coat Kate being afraid of going in the water & trying to swim even when Saint Jack took over & attempted to coax her in. Maybe she's always been a scared girl or lacked confidence in life. I can relate in many ways to that mentality. Unpopular opinion: I enjoy her character on the show. Toby, while he has myriad points and is trying for his family in a way he knows HOW  right now, has been kind of a jerk. 

[Ohmo]

On 3/28/2022 at 12:45 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

ETA: I admit to being biased against Kate right now. I agree that Toby has made some bad choices (as written this season), although IMO they have all been from a place of love and desire to make a better life for his family (and yes, he is included in that family). But it also seems to me that he has been the one making an effort to make Kate happy throughout the seasons, going as far as stopping the meds that kept him mentally-healthy in order for them to conceive. I can't really think of a compromise or concession on Kate's part, apart from 'allowing' him to take this job in SF to begin with.

How many times can I like this post?  It is frustrating that Toby is being written as making "bad" choices (which I don't think are "bad", and those that are have more to do with how Kate is going to react.

If, for example, he had said that he was against Kate working, that would be one thing, but this whole thing is so artificial.  It's not about A JOB.  It's about THIS JOB that we know gets her to Philip, which is ridiculous.  She could move to SF, get a job similar to the one she has now (or better as she gains more experience), and she and Toby could be quite happy.  There doesn't NEED to be a Philip.

And then to show just how damaged Kate is emotionally.  She actually tells Toby that she like the guy he was before, when he was his least physically and emotionally happy.  Kate doesn't realize how much harm she's doing to her marriage.  As to communicating, yes, they definitely aren't, but I don't think they can moreso because of Kate than Toby.  Maturity isn't the right word, but Kate's general lack of awareness about adulthood is striking.  It is incredibly difficult to see her view in this.

Yes Kate, we know you have the kids all day.  There would be less of that if you moved to SF.

[CountryGirl]

10 hours ago, Ohmo said:

I tried posting a response to this, but something happened, so I will try again.  This is an assumption that all states handle expenses for all disabled children, and it perpetuates ableism about disability and poverty.  Not every family wants that for themselves or their child. There is already a huge stereotype that disability equals poverty and that disabled people are "paid for" by non-disabled people.

Toby's job gives him a certain level of means...significant means, and he specifically said that he wanted Jack to have the life he wants. In other words, that Jack isn't broke.  Toby wants to position Jack NOW as a child so that he has the means and capability to NOT be an impoverished adult, and the flash forward tells us Jack is quite wealthy, which I utterly adore.

@Ohmo, I appreciate your perspective here and willingness to share.

The statement was based on my personal experience where the state provided some assistance to my special needs nephew (whom I referenced helping to raise in a previous post) and his was not a low-income situation. It was also the case for a number of the families I came to know as a result of having a SN nephew. I was not suggesting every state will provide for all needs, in all situations as I know that is definitely not the case. I am someone who has been an advocate for those with special needs, even before my nephew existed, so I know that the situations I am most familiar with were not and are not the experience for everyone. 

[Rootbeer]

On 4/3/2022 at 6:52 AM, debraran said:

I amazed that although my mom was a mom with kids in the 60's, women did get married young, many of my friends had parents (maybe with unhappier marriages) told their daughters to take care of themselves getting a skill. One woman who is 68 now told me her mom and dad were both alcoholics but told all 5 girls to pick something. She did Xray, others teaching and nursing, most with scholarships. I told her that her life was full of uncertainty and unhappy moments but she gave them a gift with that. She got paid the most but all got more than secretarial or waitress's made. They also learned they could do things alone and not count on leaning on someone all the time.

 

I'm in my mid-60's. so, younger than Rebecca but significantly older than Kate.  My parents had 5 daughters and all 5 of us knew from an early age that we needed to be able to support ourselves at some point.  Even my 2 sisters who didn't go to college got jobs and worked full time from the moment they graduated high school.  The other 3 of us not only graduated college, but got advanced degrees; a Masters, a JD and an MD between us.  My father graduated high school and sold vacuum cleaners, my mother never finished high school and worked as a waitress; so they had even less education than Jack and Rebecca and, yet, managed to instill the need to get out there and make a living in all of their daughters.

This was not unusual thinking back in the 70's when I was in high school.  When I think back to those days, all of my female friends had plans; they all intended to go to college with a specific career goal in mind.  I never knew anyone who thought finding a husband and having him support her for the rest of her life was a viable option.

The writing for the show is wrong when they show Jack and Rebecca barely interested in Kate's future.  For that matter, back in those days, even if Kate was interested in a singing career; Rebecca should've been advising her on developing a backup plan.  Most people interested in careers in music know that they need a side hustle.  I have a nephew who majored in music and got his teaching credentials so he could earn a living while playing in a band on weekends and such.

[Ohiopirate02]

18 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

I'm in my mid-60's. so, younger than Rebecca but significantly older than Kate.  My parents had 5 daughters and all 5 of us knew from an early age that we needed to be able to support ourselves at some point.  Even my 2 sisters who didn't go to college got jobs and worked full time from the moment they graduated high school.  The other 3 of us not only graduated college, but got advanced degrees; a Masters, a JD and an MD between us.  My father graduated high school and sold vacuum cleaners, my mother never finished high school and worked as a waitress; so they had even less education than Jack and Rebecca and, yet, managed to instill the need to get out there and make a living in all of their daughters.

This was not unusual thinking back in the 70's when I was in high school.  When I think back to those days, all of my female friends had plans; they all intended to go to college with a specific career goal in mind.  I never knew anyone who thought finding a husband and having him support her for the rest of her life was a viable option.

The writing for the show is wrong when they show Jack and Rebecca barely interested in Kate's future.  For that matter, back in those days, even if Kate was interested in a singing career; Rebecca should've been advising her on developing a backup plan.  Most people interested in careers in music know that they need a side hustle.  I have a nephew who majored in music and got his teaching credentials so he could earn a living while playing in a band on weekends and such.

They were also content to raise Kevin thinking he did not need a back up plan to playing professional football.  They knew he was a mediocre student but were willing to overlook it due to his athletic talents.  They really went and put all of the eggs into the Randall basket.

[smartymarty]

46 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

This was not unusual thinking back in the 70's when I was in high school.  When I think back to those days, all of my female friends had plans; they all intended to go to college with a specific career goal in mind.  I never knew anyone who thought finding a husband and having him support her for the rest of her life was a viable option.

46 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

 

I graduated 1983, and felt that all the girls assumed they would have a career. My mother was older than those of my peers, so she sent me to college to meet my future husband and them be a stay at home parent. I did not know that at the time, as she had always been teaching me, my sister and brother, how to be self-sufficient. Turned out that for me and my sister, she only did that so that we could support ourselves until we married.

I cringed when Jack said Kevin needed to learn to be a man, and also kind of used the "throw him into the pool" method of swimming (though it was teach him a lesson). Kate was just always coddled.

14 hours ago, Ohmo said:

It was too much to expect Kate to agree to buy a house in 2 days no matter what research he has done, but he doesn't seem to have done any, because he is sure he is right.

I don't think Toby pressured her to buy a house in 2 days. He just said that if she liked it as much as he did, they'd have to act fast (i.e., in 2 days). If not, they'd find something else. It just felt like pressure to Kate because it never occurred to her that the family would move to SF.

[Crs97]

If Rebecca had talked about a back up plan for Kate’s singing career, Jack would have chided her for not believing in her daughter’s dream.

[CountryGirl]

1 hour ago, smartymarty said:

I don't think Toby pressured her to buy a house in 2 days. He just said that if she liked it as much as he did, they'd have to act fast (i.e., in 2 days). If not, they'd find something else. It just felt like pressure to Kate because it never occurred to her that the family would move to SF.

MMV (as clearly this was one of the more polarizing episodes, but I guess that's good TV, right?) but I agree with those who felt it was pressure.

Kate was coming for a visit to test the waters and open the door to start having the conversation about the possibility of moving to San Francisco. Putting myself in her shoes, I can see where him springing on her the going to see a house he obviously loves, him going through all the steps to ensure their finances were in order/pre-approval, and intimating to her they had a few days to decide, would feel a bit like pressure. 

It's less about the house per se, but about him taking her wanting to visit and feel out SF as a fait accompli that she would want to move to SF. That was kind of a big leap, but it just illustrates how they are not only on the same page, they're barely in the same book.

[Rootbeer]

32 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

MMV (as clearly this was one of the more polarizing episodes, but I guess that's good TV, right?) but I agree with those who felt it was pressure.

Kate was coming for a visit to test the waters and open the door to start having the conversation about the possibility of moving to San Francisco. Putting myself in her shoes, I can see where him springing on her the going to see a house he obviously loves, him going through all the steps to ensure their finances were in order/pre-approval, and intimating to her they had a few days to decide, would feel a bit like pressure. 

It's less about the house per se, but about him taking her wanting to visit and feel out SF as a fait accompli that she would want to move to SF. That was kind of a big leap, but it just illustrates how they are not only on the same page, they're barely in the same book.

Kate has purchased a home in a hot market in just the past couple years; she didn't need Toby or the realtor to tell her they needed to move fast, nor was it Toby or the realtor putting the pressure on her.  Houses are selling overnight in those markets and Kate knows it whether Toby says it out loud or not.

I also disagree that Kate went to SF with any thoughts at all about moving there.  Her mind was made up long before she arrived that she was never moving to SF, that Toby was going to have to find work in LA.  We didn't see her testing the waters or giving any consideration to moving there; she rejected it out of hand before she ever left LA.

[smartymarty]

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

Kate was coming for a visit to test the waters and open the door to start having the conversation about the possibility of moving to San Francisco.

 

36 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

Kate has purchased a home in a hot market in just the past couple years; she didn't need Toby or the realtor to tell her they needed to move fast, nor was it Toby or the realtor putting the pressure on her.  Houses are selling overnight in those markets and Kate knows it whether Toby says it out loud or not.

I also disagree that Kate went to SF with any thoughts at all about moving there.  Her mind was made up long before she arrived that she was never moving to SF, that Toby was going to have to find work in LA.  We didn't see her testing the waters or giving any consideration to moving there; she rejected it out of hand before she ever left LA.

I think Kate went to SF just to reconnect with Toby. She was shocked at his hope that they'd move there. From her point of view then, it felt like pressure because she would first have to decide she wanted to move to SF, then consider that particular house. She couldn't do that in a mere day or two. If Toby did anything wrong, it was assuming Kate was on the same page as him about SF v. LA. But I think he was just so excited about the idea of them being together again with him having the fabulous job that he didn't think.

I will give Toby credit on one thing, over Kate, which is that he apologized for not telling her about the LA job. I don't recall any apologies from Kate (you all can correct me!).

[Ohiopirate02]

2 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

 

I think Kate went to SF just to reconnect with Toby. She was shocked at his hope that they'd move there. From her point of view then, it felt like pressure because she would first have to decide she wanted to move to SF, then consider that particular house. She couldn't do that in a mere day or two. If Toby did anything wrong, it was assuming Kate was on the same page as him about SF v. LA. But I think he was just so excited about the idea of them being together again with him having the fabulous job that he didn't think.

I will give Toby credit on one thing, over Kate, which is that he apologized for not telling her about the LA job. I don't recall any apologies from Kate (you all can correct me!).

No, Kate did say in the Thanksgiving episode that she wanted to come up to SF and check the city out.  She was on board about moving up there because she was under the mistaken impression that Toby has not been able to find a suitable job in LA.  She may have been reluctant about moving, but she knows they cannot sustain their marriage with both of them in two different cities.  

Toby was the one lying by omission for weeks.  He also felt comfortable enough to discuss this with his boss, but not his wife. He needed to apologize for that.  I fail to see what Kate needs to apologize for in this situation.  

[CrystalBlue]

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

No, Kate did say in the Thanksgiving episode that she wanted to come up to SF and check the city out.  She was on board about moving up there because she was under the mistaken impression that Toby has not been able to find a suitable job in LA.  She may have been reluctant about moving, but she knows they cannot sustain their marriage with both of them in two different cities.  

Toby was the one lying by omission for weeks.  He also felt comfortable enough to discuss this with his boss, but not his wife. He needed to apologize for that.  I fail to see what Kate needs to apologize for in this situation.  

When Kate arrived in SF and Toby presented his planned itinerary to see the city, Kate countered with she just wanted to chill and watch Netflix.

Lying by omission for weeks is really not a fair argument because we don't know what the LA job offer was to begin with.  Perhaps it was so ludicrous as to be considered for Kate, Toby and kids to live on that he dismissed it without a mention.  Of course he told his SF boss about it, but why?  Perhaps to enhance his loyalty to the new company instead of acting like his job there is just a stepping stone until an LA dream job comes up?  We don't know.

What we do know is that the marriage ends.

[Ohiopirate02]

5 minutes ago, CrystalBlue said:

When Kate arrived in SF and Toby presented his planned itinerary to see the city, Kate countered with she just wanted to chill and watch Netflix.

Lying by omission for weeks is really not a fair argument because we don't know what the LA job offer was to begin with.  Perhaps it was so ludicrous as to be considered for Kate, Toby and kids to live on that he dismissed it without a mention.  Of course he told his SF boss about it, but why?  Perhaps to enhance his loyalty to the new company instead of acting like his job there is just a stepping stone until an LA dream job comes up?  We don't know.

Kate wanted Netflix and chill after sex the first night she was in SF, not the whole weekend.  What she wanted the next day was a day of exploring the city not Toby's scheduled itinerary.  

I struggle to see why Toby lying by omission an unfair argument.  He did.  The actual job offer that he turned down is irrelevant, what is relevant is Toby deciding not to tell Kate about it.  He was never going to tell her about it and him deciding to change their plan as a family without her input.  

[himela]

We see that a colleague of Kate is retiring so a full time job is opening. If Toby had told her about the job offer in LA, she could have argued that he will get less money at least for a while but she could apply for the full time job and this would balance the money that he would lose leaving the SF job.

The honest truth is that Toby feels strong, fit and appreciated in his new job with all the people who see him as someone important and he doesn't want to lose this. That's why he got in all that trouble to find a new house (it's weird that he had the time to do that while working and traveling). Toby decided his life should be in SF now and his whole family should follow him no questions asked. I find this egotistical.

[Rootbeer]

Except that, as a teacher's assistant, Kate is barely going to be making minimum wage while they will have to pay for full time childcare for two kids, one with special needs.  Her paycheck will be eaten up by that.  The average cost of daycare in California is roughly 17 grand per kid, so $34,000 a year presuming that she would be able to find someone who wouldn't want more for caring for a blind child.  Good luck with that.  A teaching assistant in California averages $16.64 per hour which works out to $34,590 a year.  It is not possible for Kate to find a teaching assistant job that will do anything more than cover childcare.

Had Kate suggested to Toby that she had the chance to work full time to offset the pay cut, he would've easily blown her out of the water with the simple facts.

Quote

oby decided his life should be in SF now and his whole family should follow him no questions asked. I find this egotistical.

Kate has decided that their lives must remain in LA because, at the age of 41, she has found her passion, in a job that will not ever pay enough to make a meaningful contribution to household expenses.  Working as a teaching assistant is essentially a hobby, an expensive one, and she expects the rest of the family to stand back so she can pursue it.  I find THAT egotistical.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Rootbeer

[Empress1]

30 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

Except that, as a teacher's assistant, Kate is barely going to be making minimum wage while they will have to pay for full time childcare for two kids, one with special needs.  Her paycheck will be eaten up by that.  The average cost of daycare in California is roughly 17 grand per kid, so $34,000 a year presuming that she would be able to find someone who wouldn't want more for caring for a blind child.  Good luck with that.  A teaching assistant in California averages $16.64 per hour which works out to $34,590 a year.  It is not possible for Kate to find a teaching assistant job that will do anything more than cover childcare.

If Kate could expect $35K a year, Toby may well make ten times that as a senior tech guy, plus bonuses and stock options. 

You could argue that teachers should make more and I’d agree, but Kate’s pay really wouldn’t be much of a factor in their finances - like, I doubt Toby needs her income to qualify for the mortgages on either their house in LA or anything they’d buy in SF.

[chocolatine]

2 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

Lying by omission for weeks is really not a fair argument because we don't know what the LA job offer was to begin with.  Perhaps it was so ludicrous as to be considered for Kate, Toby and kids to live on that he dismissed it without a mention.  Of course he told his SF boss about it, but why?  Perhaps to enhance his loyalty to the new company instead of acting like his job there is just a stepping stone until an LA dream job comes up?  We don't know.

Bad writing. Nobody mentions a competing job offer to their current employer, especially not after only a few months in the current job, unless that job offers better terms than the current one. You never mention an offer for less money so as not to give your current employer the idea that they're overpaying you. This was written with the sole purpose of making Toby look bad.

2 hours ago, himela said:

That's why he got in all that trouble to find a new house (it's weird that he had the time to do that while working and traveling).

From my experience buying a house last year, I told my realtor what I was looking for and in what price range, and she emailed me new listings every day that fit those specifications. I would then tell her which ones I wanted to look at, and she arranged everything, I just had to show up at the appointed time. So, not that much work on my part.

35 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

If Kate could expect $35K a year, Toby may well make ten times that as a senior tech guy, plus bonuses and stock options. 

Exactly. And sadly, what Toby makes, while seemingly high "on paper," is just enough to have a decent lifestyle in California, so all of the things Kate takes for granted - single-family home, trips to Pennsylvania, dinners out, etc. - wouldn't be remotely possible on a teacher's salary.

[Ohmo]

2 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

Kate has decided that their lives must remain in LA because, at the age of 41, she has found her passion, in a job that will not ever pay enough to make a meaningful contribution to household expenses.  Working as a teaching assistant is essentially a hobby, an expensive one, and she expects the rest of the family to stand back so she can pursue it.  I find THAT egotistical.

That's why this Philip scenario is ridiculous because that's what this is.  If Kate wants to be a teaching assistant, by all means, be one---in San Francisco.

Toby also DID try and find a job in LA, for months IIRC, and he was not successful.  He went where the work was.

[CrystalBlue]

57 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

That's why this Philip scenario is ridiculous because that's what this is.  If Kate wants to be a teaching assistant, by all means, be one---in San Francisco.

Toby also DID try and find a job in LA, for months IIRC, and he was not successful.  He went where the work was.

You do remember correctly.  He was unemployed for months, which did nothing good for their finances or his depression.  They were getting desperate and then luck shined on Toby with the SF job offer.  Now that he is happy, gainfully employed at a great job, he should do what:  quit his job and return to LA full-time?  Makes no sense.

[chocolatine]

47 minutes ago, CrystalBlue said:

You do remember correctly.  He was unemployed for months, which did nothing good for their finances or his depression.  They were getting desperate and then luck shined on Toby with the SF job offer.  Now that he is happy, gainfully employed at a great job, he should do what:  quit his job and return to LA full-time?  Makes no sense.

Strictly speaking it was only Toby who was getting desperate. Kate would have been more than happy to accept the handouts that Kevin offered because (a) she has no boundaries when it comes to Kevin, and (b) she feels entitled to be financially supported by the men in her life.