S01.E01: Never the New

[Melina22]

5 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

Characters are a bit one-note at the moment, and for now, it doesn't look like Louisa Jacobson has inherited her Mom's (Meryl Streep) talent - she was pretty wooden in this episode. Her sister Mamie Gummer is very talented but this is the first thing I've seen Louisa in.

Sadly, I have to agree. Overall, I found Louisa to be lacking charisma to a degree I found distracting at times, particularly in a lead role. Maybe she'll grow on me. 

I also found a lot of the writing to be very stilted. I realize people were generally more formal back then, but this is something more. I know how gifted so many of these actors are, so it has to be the writing. Many of the conversations just don't flow at all. 

Fortunately, there are so many other wonderful things to look at and think about that I'll keep watching. 

5 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

Loved that they're slipping real historical people into the story here and there - especially Stanford White - we're still a couple of decades away from his mega-scandal, but it's tantalizing seeing him in the mix.

What did he do? There's nothing I like better than 140 year old gossip! 😁

[EtheltoTillie]

1 hour ago, Melina22 said:

Sadly, I have to agree. Overall, I found Louisa to be lacking charisma to a degree I found distracting at times, particularly in a lead role. Maybe she'll grow on me. 

I also found a lot of the writing to be very stilted. I realize people were generally more formal back then, but this is something more. I know how gifted so many of these actors are, so it has to be the writing. Many of the conversations just don't flow at all. 

Fortunately, there are so many other wonderful things to look at and think about that I'll keep watching. 

What did he do? There's nothing I like better than 140 year old gossip! 😁

I agreed with this but I still liked it 'cause I'm so hungry for another series like this.  So, like you I'm giving them the chance to get through the exposition phase. 

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, Melina22 said:

 

What did he do? There's nothing I like better than 140 year old gossip! 😁

Sex scandal.

[Melina22]

Wowsers! That's a 6 season miniseries right there!! Why on earth did the show make him so extremely bland? And where's the giant red mustache? 

Why do we always think of people from "olden times" as repressed and innocent? They were us, only with stricter social rules and much more uncomfortable clothes.

[Nedsdag]

9 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

Wowsers! That's a 6 season miniseries right there!! Why on earth did the show make him so extremely bland? And where's the giant red mustache? 

 

The book Ragtime by E.L. Doctorow discusses the scandal, It was also adapted into a 1981 film directed by Milos Forman.

Also, see the film The Girl in the Red Velvet Swing starring Joan Collins, who played Evelyn Nesbitt to Ray Milland's Stanford White. 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Nedsdag

[Nedsdag]

3 minutes ago, Nedsdag said:

 

 

 

[AntFTW]

18 hours ago, Melina22 said:

Where did you see it? 

It’s also on HBO Max when you click the episode. It’ll be under the ‘Extras’

[Jordan Baker]

9 minutes ago, Nedsdag said:

The book Ragtime by E.L. Doctorow discusses the scandal, It was also adapted into a 1981 film directed by Milos Forman.

Also, see the film The Girl in the Red Velvet Swing starring Joan Collins, who played Evelyn Nesbitt to Ray Milland's Stanford White. 

It was also a musical on Broadway starring, among many other wonderful talents, Audra McDonald, cast here as Peggy's mother.

The show is chock full of Broadway talent, which is the main reason I'm going to stick with it. Yes, the costumes and set design are gorgeous, but I'm not feeling the story so far. 

[Melina22]

27 minutes ago, Nedsdag said:

The book Ragtime by E.L. Doctorow discusses the scandal, It was also adapted into a 1981 film directed by Milos Forman.

I've heard of these shows! I'll have to look for them. 

[AntFTW]

So far my favorite characters are Peggy and Mrs. Russell.

I’ve always found the American Gilded Age fascinating. I always read how these families who had built (and passed on) massive wealth created a tribe among themselves.

In this first episode, I think they did a great job introducing all the characters and giving us the lay of the land. Given the large amount of characters, a packed episode was needed. I thought they did a great job showing the difference in the conservative nature of the old money and the “loud” nature of the new money by highlighting the contrasts in their houses. The new money has this large and bright limestone clad house and the old money has conservative tones.

I also like that they showed the tribalism created among the domestic staff when some in the Van Rhijn staff displayed contempt toward Peggy. I imagine that’s gonna be a running theme throughout the season.

Spoiler

Lastly, I couldn’t understand Ms. Turner’s position in the show. I didn’t understand why she was told to “tread carefully.” I couldn’t understand why she, as a servant, she seems to have so much hostility toward Mrs. Russell for being “new money.” The season trailer appears to show Mr. Russell having an affair with Ms. Turner so that puts everything I saw of Ms. Turner in this episode into context. 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by AntFTW

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, Nedsdag said:

The book Ragtime by E.L. Doctorow discusses the scandal, It was also adapted into a 1981 film directed by Milos Forman.

Also, see the film The Girl in the Red Velvet Swing starring Joan Collins, who played Evelyn Nesbitt to Ray Milland's Stanford White. 

 

And a musical in the 90s.

[mansonlamps]

3 hours ago, Melina22 said:

Sadly, I have to agree. Overall, I found Louisa to be lacking charisma to a degree I found distracting at times, particularly in a lead role. Maybe she'll grow on me. 

Yes!  I think this role was terribly miscast, with a more engaging young woman in this part the show would be much improved. 

[Kath94]

On 1/24/2022 at 8:38 PM, Brn2bwild said:

I liked this better as it went along.  At first most of the characters - especially Marian - felt so wooden, but they became less so.  I like the sisters, Peggy, and Mrs. Russell the best.  The servants seem to exist to be exposition machines with no lives of their own, except for the Russells' version of Mrs. O'Brien.  

Regardless of how the story fares, we will always have clothes and scenery porn.

O'Brien!  That's her name!  I couldn't remember it, but told my husband that they basically have their version of Downton's evil Ladies' Maid, and she even has a similar hairstyle!

Agreed on the costume porn!

On 1/24/2022 at 9:18 PM, Brian Cronin said:

Louisa Jacobson looks like her sisters a lot. It's kind of weird just HOW similar they all look. I guess that's why she goes by her middle name so she stands out a bit from them.

I even looked up the cast on imdb.com, thinking that she MUST be a Gummer, and thought she looked remarkably like Meryl Streep's daughters.  Did not pick up on the fact that she IS.

[Brian Cronin]

12 minutes ago, Kath94 said:

I even looked up the cast on imdb.com, thinking that she MUST be a Gummer, and thought she looked remarkably like Meryl Streep's daughters.  Did not pick up on the fact that she IS.

I assume she's trying to avoid nepotism claims, but it's hard to distance yourself from your mom when you look just like her!

[PRgal]

Is Peggy supposed to represent the emerging Black middle class?  She seems to be part of the “not this nor that” group of people, not different from (white) women who become governesses (I wrote a paper on that which evolved to a thesis/research project in graduate school) where they, coming from privileged families and were well-educated, still had to work.  However, they were resented by the household help and weren’t part of the family’s social circle either. 

[AntFTW]

Also, I meant to say in my previous that I appreciate any appearance by the Queen Audra McDonald. I hope we see more of her.

[EtheltoTillie]

20 hours ago, meep.meep said:

To me this felt like lesser Fellowes - about even with Belgravia and far below Downton or Gosford Park.  The sets, costumes, and acting are splendid, but most of the characters are 2 dimensional at best, and you can see the plot coming a mile away.  Couldn't Larry Russell be into Peggy rather than Marion, for example?

In one respect you could say that all Fellowes is "lesser" Fellowes -- because even the gold standard Downton is ultimately a melodrama/soap opera dressed up in great costumes and scenery.  But it's acted by great actors and none of it takes anything away from my huge enjoyment of them all. 

[Roseanna]

On 1/25/2022 at 1:50 PM, Haleth said:

Funny, watching the trailer I had such sympathy for Bertha Russell vs that mean Old NY establishment, yet watching the show she comes across as so pushy and vulgar.  I can see her someday shopping her daughter to British nobility to impress Mrs Astor.  No wonder the sisters want to avoid her.

I think that it was nothing to do with her behavior. The old set was losing their position on the top for those with money an they clung to their exclusive position. 

If they had had more sense, they would have seen that matrimonial alliances is a better policy. Besides money to their children, they would get new genes after generations marrying their relatives.

Of course, Mr Russel who is in railway business takes big risks, so it isn't by any means certain he will succeed.

[Carolina Girl]

16 hours ago, TexasGal said:

Kudos to Carrie Coon - I was both extremely irritated with Mrs. Russell’s climbing, and upset knowing nowhere near 200 people were going to show up at that party.   

I wondered how in the world she could be so delusional that the old New York would show up.  She should have gotten a clue at the charity meeting when her "you must stop by" was met with no enthusiasm whatsoever.   Sure they want her money for charities.  But they know if she wants to climb, it's her only entree.  

I'll be curious if she "breaks" Mrs. Astor the way Alva Vanderbilt did.  

[Carolina Girl]

6 hours ago, Macbeth said:

Of course she had a fantastic partner in Penelope Wilton's Isobel.  She was a great straight "man"  which is the harder role in comedy.  And could sling some zingers as well.

My favorite is one from the movie (and I may be paraphrasing)

Violet:  Machiavelli is frequently underrated. He had many qualities.

Isobel:  So did Caligula - not all of them charming.

[Roseanna]

On 1/25/2022 at 6:10 PM, Angeleyes said:

I think Mrs Russell tried a little too soon for a big ball type party at her new home. She probably should have planned a ladies tea or something first. She just met these people. They are going to take some time to warm to her. Giving off the air of social climber is not helping her cause. 

Yes!

I guessed her party would fail because I have read decades ago The Turquoise of Anya Seton where the wife of the upstart has a good strategy: she asks humbly for advice, they hire a holiday home in the region where it's easier to get to know the old set, she hires to her baby a British nanny who looks down at other nannies who are duly impressed and tell that to their mistresses. And although she has been born in Santa Fé, she has a good background (a Scottish baronet for a grandfather) and they succeed to hide the husband's humble origins.

If Mrs Russel had waited, her son's friendship would have helped also her ambition, now the friend's mom told only after the party that her son had met Mrs Russel's son. 

Or maybe she shouldn't have started with the top but with the neighbors across the street. Although the older sister was unwilling to visit the Russells, there may come chances (like the dog) or she can invent them. 

[Hanahope]

another huge fan of Christine Baranski here, so fully on board.

I appreciate we are getting at least some diversity in the story, and hopefully more.

are we to assume that Ada was never pushed to find a husband?  did the brother just abandon her, so she too had to come to NY to live with Agnes?  it seems clear that Agnes never pushed Ada to get married and Ada was never interested in marrying.  so whole life to maybe some charity work or what?  

 

[PRgal]

26 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

another huge fan of Christine Baranski here, so fully on board.

I appreciate we are getting at least some diversity in the story, and hopefully more.

are we to assume that Ada was never pushed to find a husband?  did the brother just abandon her, so she too had to come to NY to live with Agnes?  it seems clear that Agnes never pushed Ada to get married and Ada was never interested in marrying.  so whole life to maybe some charity work or what?  

 

We'll probably find out later on this season...

OTT house NIMBYISM is pretty normal.  A few years ago, people weren't too happy with what Drake was doing when he renovated his house in uptown Toronto.  Now, I'm sure neighbours are trying to get invites to his house parties (okay, not right now, thanks to the pandemic, but you know what I mean).

[Roseanna]

25 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

are we to assume that Ada was never pushed to find a husband?  did the brother just abandon her, so she too had to come to NY to live with Agnes?  it seems clear that Agnes never pushed Ada to get married and Ada was never interested in marrying.  so whole life to maybe some charity work or what?  

Let's wait and see before making conclusions.

After Agnes married a man rich enough to provide her wife and sister-in-law, it wasn't *necessary* for Ada to marry - unless she fell in love in a man who was free, had a suitable background and enough money and who proposed to her (many conditions indeed!). Or maybe she loved her sister more than any man - with Ada in the same house, Agnes had no need be alone with her husband (except in the bedroom, horrible enough).

In that age there were at least one unmarried female relative in every family. Sometimes a man must provide not only for his wife and young children, but his grown-up daughters and unmarried sisters, maybe even his widowed mother and unmarried aunts and cousins...  

 

[monakane]

6 hours ago, Nedsdag said:

The book Ragtime by E.L. Doctorow discusses the scandal, It was also adapted into a 1981 film directed by Milos Forman.

And James Cagney plays the police chief.  I believe it might have been his last film.

[mojito]

 Just a pic to jog the memories of those who asked about J. Tripplehorn's appearance.

 

This little number caught my eye. She looks like she's wearing a turkey on her head! Hard to believe something like that could ever be considered chic. That's probably one of the most absurd hats I've ever seen. 

I don't have much of an ear for accents, but I noticed how this character talked a lot more like modern-day Americans than the others of her "class".

That Mid-Atlantic accent...I remember how stunned I was when I learned that Jane Wyman (Margaret Anderson of "Father Knows Best") was not from the UK, but from Mahwah, NJ. 

I'm an American history buff, and I thought you might find something I learned not too long ago about those mansions on Fifth Avenue: they were built in the 1880s and started getting torn down in the 1920s. Imagine all the money and workmanship and snobbery that went into those gaudy places...and they barely lasted 40 years. 

 

[Melina22]

16 minutes ago, mojito said:

This little number caught my eye. She looks like she's wearing a turkey on her head! Hard to believe something like that could ever be considered chic. That's probably one of the most absurd hats I've ever seen. 

I know! I couldn't stop staring at it. 

I loved your picture of the shameful Mrs.

Chamberlain. Imagine trying to fade into the background with that on your head! 😁😁

I noticed that too about Carrie's accent. Now that I think about it, it was just one more sign to the Old People that she was a New Person. She'd obviously grown up too poor or too ignorant to get the required elocution lessons. Disgusting! 😁

22 minutes ago, mojito said:

I learned not too long ago about those mansions on Fifth Avenue: they were built in the 1880s and started getting torn down in the 1920s. Imagine all the money and workmanship and snobbery that went into those gaudy places...and they barely lasted 40 years. 

This topic sparked a conversation at my house. I live in a very old city in the Maritimes. We have so many stunning, priceless stone buildings, built in the 1800s to replace the wooden ones that burned in our Great Fire. It was horrifying when several of the most beautiful ones were torn down in the 70s and 80s to make room for soulless "modern" office buildings. Thank goodness that seems to have stopped. I loved the scenes of them building the Russell mansion, because it helped me imagine what it was like when so many of our lovely buildings were first erected. Only billionaires can afford to recreate them today. 

[AntFTW]

When Bertha stopped by Mamie Fish's house to give her the invitation, the grin that Mrs. Fish gave while looking out the window at Bertha leaving seemed like an approving grin, as if she were proud of Bertha's persistence. I have no idea if I'm misinterpreting that smile, but it seemed the kind of approving smile a mama bear would give sitting in the background watching her kid stand up to a bully or watching her kids make up after a fight.

Edited January 27, 2022 by AntFTW

[Ms Blue Jay]

Not only do I usually like Christine Baranski too, but I really like her in this particular role so far.  

[Cheezwiz]

3 hours ago, mojito said:

I'm an American history buff, and I thought you might find something I learned not too long ago about those mansions on Fifth Avenue: they were built in the 1880s and started getting torn down in the 1920s. Imagine all the money and workmanship and snobbery that went into those gaudy places...and they barely lasted 40 years. 

Some of those mansions were staggering - basically mini Versailles Palaces, and they only existed for a short time - almost like a mirage. The W.A. Clark Mansion didn't even make it to twenty years  (1911-1927)- it actually took several years to completely demolish it (if you look up photos, you'll see why). 

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

When Bertha stopped by Mamie Fish's house to give her the invitation, the grin that Mrs. Fish gave while looking out the window at Bertha leaving seemed like an approving grin, as if she were proud of Bertha's persistence.

I didn't interpret it that way - I kind of saw it as her feeling immense satisfaction at slamming the door in a tacky arriviste's face.

[SailorGirl]

18 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

 The discussion of the old vs. new people was perhaps too exaggerated. 

Or not -- Gilded Age got me re-interested in watching Million Dollar American Princesses about the "new money" New Yorkers. No matter what they did, the knickerbockers wouldn't accept the new money families, so the daughters were sent to London to meet and marry titled Englishmen, which forced the issue of societal acceptance when they returned to New York.

The Old New Yorkers are the original knickerbockers -- I had completely forgotten about that term. Its where the Knicks (the basketball team) got their name -- something of which I'm sure the Gilded Age knickerbockers would NOT have approved! 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knickerbocker_Club

Its making me wonder if/when we'll be seeing Bertha take her daughter to London . . . . or if they're going to tweak history to make the knickerbockers more accepting of the new money. If they do go to London, then it really will become Downton redux. 

Edited January 27, 2022 by SailorGirl

[izabella]

5 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Not only do I usually like Christine Baranski too, but I really like her in this particular role so far.  

CB is the main attraction for me, so far, besides the dresses and hats. 

Marian seems strangely naive, yet completely comfortable with sneaking around behind her aunt's back,  She is oddly bold for someone who is essentially penniless and homeless and relying totally on her aunt's goodwill and money.  I'd have thought she'd have a little more respect for the person feeding her than to sneak across the street to that party, as if that won't get back to Agnes and upset her.   Marian went from destitute and desperate to disrespectful in one episode.

I wish I liked Carrie Coons even half as much as everyone here does, because it seems she is a main focus of the story. Maybe it's the characters I've seen her play, but Coons leaves me cold, as does Mrs. Russell.  Here, she has a perpetual "who peed in my punchbowl?" pinched attitude.  Old NY may not accept her regardless, but her considerable lack of charm or grace sure is making it easy for Old NY to turn away from her.

Edited January 27, 2022 by izabella

[Roseanna]

16 hours ago, Carolina Girl said:

I wondered how in the world she could be so delusional that the old New York would show up.  She should have gotten a clue at the charity meeting when her "you must stop by" was met with no enthusiasm whatsoever.   Sure they want her money for charities.  But they know if she wants to climb, it's her only entree.  

I think irl she wouldn't have believed that but in the beginning of the show Fellowed needed drama, although the result that could be easily guessed.

3 hours ago, izabella said:

Marian seems strangely naive, yet completely comfortable with sneaking around behind her aunt's back,  She is oddly bold for someone who is essentially penniless and homeless and relying totally on her aunt's goodwill and money.  I'd have thought she'd have a little more respect for the person feeding her than to sneak across the street to that party, as if that won't get back to Agnes and upset her.   Marian went from destitute and desperate to disrespectful in one episode.

I think the main point is that she couldn't have gone to a party without a chaperone, when she was warned not to walk in the street on her own. 

In general Fellowes has given Marian modern attitudes (chiefly no racist or class prejudices), but on the hand she is quite satisfied with charities, unlike Jo in Little women. 

[ombre]

For those who are mystified by Carrie coons' hats and whatnot, she's being shown to not *get* style. The blue ensemble was too much for going out visiting (shiny cloth in daylight? :shudder:), the dress for the charity shindig was similarly too much - the overall shape was probably fine, but the asymmetrical folderol at the neck shows how off-center she is, how much she doesn't get proper style of the day, how much she doesn't fit it. I suspect this will change over time, but you're not supposed to think she dresses well now. 

 

That said... I watched this to give it a chance but won't be back. Too much telegraphed from too far away, poor writing, etc. I read that the actors had a lot more time to research their roles thanks to the pandemic - perhaps that contributed to the stiffness. But mostly I blame the writing. Too little plot, too little character development for so many scenes. How this man routinely gets such huge budgets to make such opulent shows mystifies me and makes me sad. It could be good but for Fellowes. 

[ombre]

4 hours ago, izabella said:

Marian seems strangely naive, yet completely comfortable with sneaking around behind her aunt's back,  She is oddly bold for someone who is essentially penniless and homeless and relying totally on her aunt's goodwill and money.  I'd have thought she'd have a little more respect for the person feeding her than to sneak across the street to that party, as if that won't get back to Agnes and upset her.   Marian went from destitute and desperate to disrespectful in one episode..

And this, in a nutshell, is why I won't be watching this show. The thing about social mores is that they have *stakes*.  You know it before you transgress them so there's anxiety about them. This wasn't just "there's a party and I've got a pretty dress but how would I get back in the house?" but that's the level of discussion it got, so it either makes Marian out to be impossibly naive (maybe that's the goal, but make it clearer!) or it just looks lazy. That's the thing about historical fiction - the past is a foreign country, so introduce your audience to that country's ways. Or deliberately don't (for periods where people sort of have a sense of the time and customs - I suspect this is what Bridgerton sought to do, for example, although I haven't watched it) and use the disjuncture between modern ways and older setting (thus just using as much knowledge of the period as is in the air) to speak for itself. I think I remember that the Tudors went that route to show Henry viii as a modern character (although... I didn't watch that either). But if you're not *somehow* doing that work, then why are you writing in a different time period? Are you just doing it to show off the pretty dresses?  I mean... that's fine, but it's not good storytelling. 

Edited January 27, 2022 by ombre

[izabella]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I think the main point is that she couldn't have gone to a party without a chaperone, when she was warned not to walk in the street on her own. 

I thought the main point was Agnes felt very strongly about being Old NY, wouldn't even consider the family going to the Russell's house for a party or anything else, and would never approve of her niece going there, so Marian chose to disrespect and defy her by sneaking out of the house behind her back while lying to both her aunts in the process about having a headache.  Agnes will be very upset when she finds out that Marian went to the Russell's and lied to her about it.

Marian doesn't owe the Russells anything, but she owes her aunt, who generously gave her a home and some independent income, a great deal more consideration plus honesty.  So why was going to the Russell party more important than her aunts' feelings?

Edited January 27, 2022 by izabella

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, izabella said:

I thought the main point was Agnes felt very strongly about being Old NY, wouldn't even consider the family going to the Russell's house for a party or anything else, and would never approve of her niece going there, so Marian chose to disrespect and defy her by sneaking out of the house behind her back while lying to both her aunts in the process about having a headache.  Agnes will be very upset when she finds out that Marian went to the Russell's and lied to her about it.

Marian doesn't owe the Russells anything, but she owes her aunt, who generously gave her a home and some independent income, a great deal more consideration plus honesty.  So why was going to the Russell party more important than her aunts' feelings?

Because Fellowes thinks that "breaking the conventional rules" is something that makes the audience like the heroine who shows to be independent, brave and resourceful, whereas it's considered old-fashioned that if a grown-up person is materially dependent on an aunt, she must show herself grateful and do as the aunt says, how irrational the aunt's commands are. 

Actually, it's not hurting Agnes' feelings that is a problem but how she acts on them. Maybe she doesn't throw Marian in the street, but she can take back the allowance etc. 

But maybe she doesn't find out or if she does, Fellowes will swiftly make all OK. But he should really have chosen a better reason for Marian to defy her aunt - lying for a party may suit for a teenage girl but Marian is grown-up. 

[mojito]

16 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Not only do I usually like Christine Baranski too, but I really like her in this particular role so far.  

I first noticed her on "Cybill". She was funny, as Maryann, the always-boozing, bitter ex-wife of "Dr. Dick" whom she was constantly trying to torment. Her character was for me one of the more memorable second-bananas of television. 

Honestly, I'm not trying to show off my knowledge but thought I'd mention something that might be of interest to others, now that a couple of posts have discussed the American Princesses:

Diana Spencer can be traced back to one of those American Princesses. I'm going from memory here, so forgive any errors: her great-grandmother was an American Princess who returned to the US but one of her sons went back to England as an adult and begat Diana's father. 

I wondered, reading comments and reviews, if there would be so many harsh criticisms of this show  if "Downton Abbey" had not existed first? Or did these criticisms mirror those of Downton's initial reviews? 

[Ms Blue Jay]

19 minutes ago, mojito said:

I first noticed her on "Cybill". She was funny, as Maryann, the always-boozing, bitter ex-wife of "Dr. Dick" whom she was constantly trying to torment. Her character was for me one of the more memorable second-bananas of television. 

She also has a really classic episode of Frasier.  Episode 620 "Dr. Nora"

[LegalParrot81]

32 minutes ago, mojito said:

I first noticed her on "Cybill". She was funny, as Maryann, the always-boozing, bitter ex-wife of "Dr. Dick" whom she was constantly trying to torment. Her character was for me one of the more memorable second-bananas of television. 

Honestly, I'm not trying to show off my knowledge but thought I'd mention something that might be of interest to others, now that a couple of posts have discussed the American Princesses:

Diana Spencer can be traced back to one of those American Princesses. I'm going from memory here, so forgive any errors: her great-grandmother was an American Princess who returned to the US but one of her sons went back to England as an adult and begat Diana's father. 

I wondered, reading comments and reviews, if there would be so many harsh criticisms of this show  if "Downton Abbey" had not existed first? Or did these criticisms mirror those of Downton's initial reviews? 

Christine Baranski is incredibly versatile.  Movies, television, stage, musicals, comedy, drama....she's got them all covered.  I love in her this role so far.  She doesn't miss a beat.

Princess Diana's great grandmother was Frances Work, an American socialite who was, at one point, married to some British baron.

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by LegalParrot81

[Roseanna]

Already before the party Marian said that she knew that she should feel grateful towards her aunt but she doesn't. If she lived irl in that age, she would know that she must act like she were grateful, regardless of her feelings. 

Not that everyone acted like that. In Little Women, Jo acted according her feelings - so she lost the trip to Europe with Aunt March who took Amy with her.   

[izabella]

That tells me there's something wrong with her if she doesn't feel grateful.  She clearly had no other options except to beg her aunts for a place to live, otherwise she would have gone and done it.  She felt grateful to Peggy for buying her a train ticket when her purse was stolen, so why is it so hard to be grateful that her aunts didn't turn their backs on her?

Regardless of whether she feels grateful, the least she can do is be respectful of the people who are being kind to her.  Lying to them and sneaking around behind their backs is neither independent, brave, nor resourceful.  It's deceitful and duplicitous.    And for what?  The Russells?  Maybe she could ask Mrs. Russell to take her in and give her an allowance and see how much she cares about what happens to her.  Or she can try to find that no-skills job she thinks she can find, and live in a rooming house and see if that makes her feel independent and brave.  Perhaps she can ask the house maids how independent they feel.

Edited January 27, 2022 by izabella

[Hanahope]

22 hours ago, mojito said:

I'm an American history buff, and I thought you might find something I learned not too long ago about those mansions on Fifth Avenue: they were built in the 1880s and started getting torn down in the 1920s. Imagine all the money and workmanship and snobbery that went into those gaudy places...and they barely lasted 40 years. 

Why were they torn down?  couldn't they have been converted?

[mojito]

I believe to make room for tall buildings. New York was beginning to grow “up” since it couldn’t grow out. It needed the real estate for more people and businesses.  That meant much taller buildings.

You had me thinking about it, so I did a little research. 

This is a blurb from https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-golden-era-and-grand-destruction-of-cornelius-vanderbilt-iis-new-york-palace

"They considered it gauche to mix private real estate with business, but, despite their vast riches, they couldn’t stop the onslaught of hotels and retail spaces making their way up Fifth Avenue.

The New York Evening Mail reported that, “By 1914, it was almost impossible to sell a private house for occupancy south of 59th.”

In 1926, Alice [Vanderbilt] decided to sell the family home and its fate was sealed. Before the family moved out and the developers took possession, she decided to open the house to the public as a charity benefit. Visitors paid 50 cents to tour the American palace."

Edited January 27, 2022 by mojito

[hatchetgirl]

Ugh - I'm in the minority here I guess. This was abysmal and painful. The script is stilted, the acting a rough and stodgy, just awful. I LOVED the sets and clothing and food and stuff, but it just felt not right. We've all seen the new money v. old money story done better before. There was a fluidity about Downton Abbey, but this is just a train on the wrong sized tracks for me.

[MBayGal]

Thanks for info in Jeanne T's character.  I need to rewatch anyway to try to get all the names straightened out in my mind, and now I can look for her.  She must become more important in future eps, since she is in all of them. 

(I thought I sent this late last night, but it did not magically arrive on this site when I failed to press Submit Reply.)

I don't like British royalty so never watched Downton Abbey.  Perhaps because of not having that to compare The Gilded Age with, I am enjoying this so far.  A big fan of Carrie Coon and Jeanne T, also the adorable Cavalier King Charles Spaniel😉

[Empress Josephine]

On 1/25/2022 at 8:27 PM, Brn2bwild said:

I think I remember reading that the accents (I think they're called "Midatlantic") were acquired, not natural.  They got them in prep school, which taught them to imitate British upper class accents.

I remember reading about this in Edie Sedgwicks biography some years ago. It was talking about how her parents were like old money royalty from some part of New York State and that her father/grandfather talked with that sort of accent that had been cultivated at their boarding schools.

[Shermie]

Quote

She's Meryl Streep's daughter... her name is Louisa Jacobson

I saw Marian and thought, oh, that’s Mamie Gummer, Meryl Streep’s daughter. She and Christine Baranski both were on The Good Wife. Then I saw the actress’s name was Louisa Jacobson and thought, wow, she sure looks like a Streep girl. And then I find out here that she is. So there you go.

Lots of great costumes and sets, but I always think what a pain to have to dress that way all the damn time. I like dressing up for special occasions, but to wear that much fabric all the time? Ugh. And all that nonsense with societal hierarchy drives me nuts, such snobbery when the snobs act just as trashy behind the scenes as they think the riff-raff does.

The snooty rules and mores of Downton sometimes drove me round the bend, when the great dowager was beside herself because the men were wearing a black tux and not a white one, or somesuch absurdity. And speaking of Downton, this show was so Downton-esque, it was uncanny. From the opening music, to the upstairs-downstairs, to the little clips like the camera following the servants’ feet hurriedly going up the stairs to do some crucial life-or-death task like deliver the correct pickle fork to the drawing room.

That said, I did enjoy it and I’m looking forward to seeing how Bertha gets her vengeance. Too bad her name is Bertha, though she learned nothing since she named her daughter Gladys. 

[Bliss]

22 minutes ago, Shermie said:

...I always think what a pain to have to dress that way all the damn time.

Christine's interview with Stephen Colbert was hilarious... she talked about the biggest problem of the costumes: having to go to the washroom on the set - which wasn't even an actual washroom. It was one of those portapotty contraptions. Not a lot of room inside for a billowing dress. She became quite graphic, laughing about the volume of fabric she had to lift up, and saying she had to take care to "aim" properly. LOL

[Roseanna]

11 hours ago, izabella said:

That tells me there's something wrong with her if she doesn't feel grateful.  She clearly had no other options except to beg her aunts for a place to live, otherwise she would have gone and done it.  She felt grateful to Peggy for buying her a train ticket when her purse was stolen, so why is it so hard to be grateful that her aunts didn't turn their backs on her?

Regardless of whether she feels grateful, the least she can do is be respectful of the people who are being kind to her.  Lying to them and sneaking around behind their backs is neither independent, brave, nor resourceful.  It's deceitful and duplicitous.    And for what?  The Russells?  Maybe she could ask Mrs. Russell to take her in and give her an allowance and see how much she cares about what happens to her.  Or she can try to find that no-skills job she thinks she can find, and live in a rooming house and see if that makes her feel independent and brave.  Perhaps she can ask the house maids how independent they feel.

You make good points. 

However, one can't force ones feelings. And I think that there are reasons why Marian feels differently towards Peggy who was a total stranger and had little money and still helped voluntarily. That loan is now paid (thanks to Agnes), so they are are equal (irl they weren't as Peggy is a servant). Instead, it's not easy to be totally dependent on a rich aunt who initially was (as we were shown) reluctant to take her niece to her house and has so far only melted a little. And because Marian father has painted her sisters black, she is only slowly learning that they aren't but her father acted wrongly towards them. 

Regarding your other points, blame Fellowes. He should have invented a plot where Marian resisted her aunt for better reasons.