S06.E01: The Challenger

[Ohmo]

29 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Rebecca isn't having a normal symptom of aging.  It's not necessarily a case where Rebecca will know the word if she sees or hears it.  Indeed, she may go straight to Google, see the word "caboose" and have no idea it is the word for which she is searching.   

That as well as her reaction is a way for her to maintain control.  She had a line where she said that she read the book to the kids every night. She's hoping/wishing/wanting that repetition to be enough for her to retain the memory. Meaning, she still possesses some amount of control. By using a Google search, that's an implicit acknowledgement that she needs assistance, which is lack of control and lack of her own sense of agency.

[CountryGirl]

16 hours ago, Violetgoblin6 said:

So,  we all saw the double take Kate's boss gave her. 

I think him realizing how much her students love her and what they "see" in her is making him look at her with fresh eyes. 

I am looking forward to the demise of the Kate/Toby marriage about as much as Rebecca's descent into worsening Alzheimer's (which is hitting home as my MIL is currently in the moderate stage of the disease), but that is what makes the show so darn real.

[CountryGirl]

2 hours ago, Ohmo said:

Actually, I'm glad that DIDN'T happen.  There are differences between chronic illness and disability, but too often, the expectation is that disabled people just take whatever life hands them without complaint, and if we dare have a public moment where we think things aren't so great, then we aren't being "good disabled people."  I'd imagine that people with chronic illness (which I don't have) feel much the same way. Rebecca was at a family birthday party, and she's upset that she can't remember caboose.  I'm glad she was given the right to be loudly ticked off,  Sorry, but the kids and other adults can just learn to deal.

Yes, this. That is much more realistic for her to have an outburst. As far as it being at the birthday party, it's not as if the adults aren't very aware of what is going on and the kids are too young to really care.

[Shermie]

3 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Lots and lots of those born in the late '70s or very early '80s will tell you that they watched it live at school. And there were some schools that showed it to their students, because NASA created a satellite broadcast specifically for schools.

But the overwhelming majority of school kids didn't watch it happen at school. Very few schools had assemblies for everyone to watch it - and there weren't generally many TV sets per school, so most teachers couldn't just bring in a TV for their class to watch.

However, there was devastating footage of some school kids (Christa McAuliffe's students, maybe?) watching the launch at a big assembly, and realizing what happened. A lot of kids across America ended up seeing that footage. It made enough of an impression on them that, many years later, they falsely remember being at that actual assembly.

That’s really interesting and makes a lot of sense. False memory is a thing.

I do remember watching the Challenger launch and then that explosion with the smoke going in two directions. There was footage of Christa McCauliffe’s parents looking up at that moment and maybe tears flowing from the Mom, and people said aw, so sad they’re crying for their daughter. But they didn’t know it was a malfunction. Like most of us watching, we didn’t know initially that that was an explosion; it could have been routine rocket launchers disengaging or something. 

As far as it being traumatizing to kids, I can see that a lot of schools would have talked about it in advance to the kids. Not only the first civilian going up, but a teacher, and she was going to do some special lessons from space. Very exciting, so hyped up a lot in schools. Even it the kids didn’t watch the launch, the teachers might have said today’s the day Teacher Christa is going up in space! Or something to that effect.

I have no issue with Jack still being present on the show. The entire premise is to show how this particular family group came to be, and a big part of their experience is being Jack’s child, wife, friend, brother. Of course he’s going to be a long-lasting influence.

[CountryGirl]

I was in 7th grade when The Challenger explosion occurred and I will never forget seeing that and remembering, even now, that that was the first time I saw people die before my eyes.

I grew up in a very small town (less than 1,000 people, two traffic lights) and had kind of assumed that if I was watching it in my small school, lots of others were, too.

I knew immediately what happened, not only from seeing the shuttle and then nothing but smoke, but also, watching my crusty, burly science teacher put his hand over his mouth in shock, tears in his eyes.

Kevin broke my heart when he crawled into bed with Kate and shared what he'd been keeping in all day, that "Mom and Dad are going to die." I remember being young Kevin's age and the first time it struck me that my parents could die and someday, no matter what, would. I appreciated seeing more of the Kate/Kevin relationship, then and now, and their reflecting on how they've come in the past 5 years, but the one constant in their lives is each other.

Rebecca finally remembering "caboose" and how they showed her not seeing the last car or the title of the book. As I said upthread, my MIL has Alzheimer's and it just hits home. She also made me cheer when she called out Nicky on his sad sack Sally routine. And she was spot-on about Randall's savior complex. Although please no with the Catcher in the Rye references. One of the most overrated books of all time.

Randall, you should always choose Door Beth. I'm as straight as they come, but I would have chosen that door.

I'm not falling for show's lazy trope of trying to to make me think Kevin is jealous. I will never believe he was ever in love with Madison, then or now.  In love with the idea of being in love, in love with his babies, in love with living up to the standards of the perfect family he thought his family was, sure. 

Him making faces and noises about this other guy coming around and being around his kids doesn't mean he's jealous or OMG, he DOES love Madison after all (more than just as the mother of his children) is more about the potential shake-up of their family situation than anything else. Kevin has shown over and over again that he is willing to go to any lengths to be there for his children, including his willingness to marry Madison just to make them a family, even when the love that is needed (and no, I'm not talking about passion although that does need to be there a bit from time to time), shows that, as does his acceptance of the Manny reboot, despite the toxic situation he'd be walking right back into. 

Elsewhere, going back to Kate and Toby. It's not about the pasta. Meaning it's not about him missing her birthday until it was almost over. It's about all the other days that he's going to miss, the milestones, and the little moments that make up a life. He has two young kids and he's going to be gone from them for half a week/half a month/half a year...do the math.

I feel for Toby because he is just trying to be the best father he knows how and a huge part of that is supporting his family. And I still go back to the fact that he took this job without talking to Kate first (IIRC) being a huge red flag.

But the best intentions won't make up for time lost.

My husband grew up with a father who worked away from home 5 days/week and he only saw him on the weekends for most of his childhood. And many weekends, he and his siblings were sent to their grandparents so his parents can have alone time. He lost his father late in 2020 and still hasn't really processed or grieved because there are so many mixed emotions, including how do you mourn someone you didn't really know? There's a saying "too long a stranger" for a reason and it's much the same with my own father. So, it's complicated.

 

 

 

[Ohiopirate02]

8 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

 

Elsewhere, going back to Kate and Toby. It's not about the pasta. Meaning it's not about him missing her birthday until it was almost over. It's about all the other days that he's going to miss, the milestones, and the little moments that make up a life. He has two young kids and he's going to be gone from them for half a week/half a month/half a year...do the math.

I feel for Toby because he is just trying to be the best father he knows how and a huge part of that is supporting his family. And I still go back to the fact that he took this job without talking to Kate first (IIRC) being a huge red flag.

But the best intentions won't make up for time lost.

My husband grew up with a father who worked away from home 5 days/week and only saw him on the weekends for most of his childhood. And many weekends, he and his siblings were sent to their grandparents so his parents can home alone time. He lost his father late in 2020 and still hasn't really processed or grieved because there are so many mixed emotions, including how do you mourn someone you didn't really know? There's a saying "too long a stranger" for a reason and it's much the same with my own father. So, it's complicated.

 

 

 

I also saw the Kate scenes this way.  Kate is a single parent to two kids under 3 for the better part of the week.  It's hard.  I saw her missing her other half, not because it's her birthday,  but because she just misses him.  It was a short scene, but it's obvious that Toby is extremely busy at work and may be spending more time in SF than what he envisioned when he took the job.  Time will tell in future episodes how much of his time the new job is taking. 

This is probably going to be the first time distance and geography actually matters in the TIU universe.   The writers know how much of a bitch LA traffic is and how long it takes for someone to get from LAX to the Pearson-Damon house.  No more fluid Pennsylvania and New Jersey jaunts.  

[CrystalBlue]

I agree with everyone just about on everything in the upthread posts, including seeing both sides of alternate feelings or theories.

I was almost 30 the day of the Challenger tragedy.  It was hyped up because of the first time a civilian, teacher Christa McAuliffe, was going into space with NASA astronauts.  The decision to allow it wasn't without some controvery before the launching.  I heard about the explosion on the radio as I was getting ready for work.  The DJ of the rock 'n' roll station relayed the news and asked for prayers.  (She has since died but I'll never forget her.)  After work the replays on the news was relentless which is why so many people misremember seeing it as it happened.  It still upsets me greatly and brought tears to my eyes watching this episode.

I'm a fan of Nicky and got a kick out of his obession with finding Sally and Rebecca's response.  Especially since we know where Nicky is as Rebecca seems to be dying in the flashforward.

[Blakeston]

The more I think about it, the more I'm irritated by Beth's self-aggrandizing speech in the beginning of the episode. It would have made sense to me if it had been her birthday - but it was Randall's, not hers.

Randall's "I've got to look him in the eye!" plan was bad, and if I were Beth I would have had many questions for him. Like, "do you really think you're going to get closure this way?" and "what happens when things inevitably don't play out the way you imagined?"

But I wouldn't have made him feel like a jerk for wanting to take a little time on his birthday to do something that's personally important to him.

And I wouldn't have presented him with the ultimatum of, "Either you spend your entire birthday with me or you won't have me at all!"

And I definitely wouldn't have carried on about how utterly perfect I am, because...ugh. The writers really, really struggle to find dialogue between Beth and Randall that doesn't feel completely contrived.

[Crs97]

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

Meaning it's not about him missing her birthday until it was almost over. It's about all the other days that he's going to miss, the milestones, and the little moments that make up a life. He has two young kids and he's going to be gone from them for half a week/half a month/half a year...do the math.

I feel for Toby because he is just trying to be the best father he knows how and a huge part of that is supporting his family. And I still go back to the fact that he took this job without talking to Kate first (IIRC) being a huge red flag.

My issue is that this is the only job he could find, and he is the primary breadwinner.  That trumps her part time brand new job as an aide.  It is ridiculous that she stayed put.  He is missing out on his children’s milestones because she refused to leave.  All my sympathy goes to him.

One thing I remember is (I think I noticed this on a later showing) the NASA person announced at least one milestone after the Challenger had already exploded.  My dad explained that the person isn’t watching live, but going down the timeline.  He had to be told to stop.  It was so jarring to hear him make that announcement while watching it fall from the sky.

I found Rebecca’s outburst very realistic.  My MIL was very prone to angry outbursts when she was struggling to remember things or trying to maintain a facade that she was fine.  

Edited January 6, 2022 by Crs97

[Marley]

I don’t like Madison at all and I wish she would go away but she won’t because her husband is the creator of the show. That’s the only reason she’s still here. I see no chemistry between her and Kevin. I don’t buy their relationship at all.

I’m sure she will be Kevin's future wife tho. They will never stop shoving her down our throats.

I have a gross feeling they are trying to make Malik and Deja the next Randall and Beth. Stupid. They both suck. No way they would stay together. And where is his baby?

Edited January 7, 2022 by Marley

[OlderThanDirt]

I don't understand why Toby is the bad guy for taking a well paying full-time job in his field, while Kate has insisted on staying with her part-time job that she's had for a matter of months.  Her job cannot support the family.  Does it even cover the cost of childcare for her very young children? The Bay Area would provide employment opportunities for her and options for programs for little Jack.  This whole plot line is ridiculous to me. If they had equal careers I might see it differently.  The fact is that choices were made, including having those two particular children, and the parents have adult responsibilities to carry out. 

[Crs97]

Preach it, Older!!

[Marley]

40 minutes ago, OlderThanDirt said:

I don't understand why Toby is the bad guy for taking a well paying full-time job in his field, while Kate has insisted on staying with her part-time job that she's had for a matter of months.  Her job cannot support the family.  Does it even cover the cost of childcare for her very young children? The Bay Area would provide employment opportunities for her and options for programs for little Jack.  This whole plot line is ridiculous to me. If they had equal careers I might see it differently.  The fact is that choices were made, including having those two particular children, and the parents have adult responsibilities to carry out. 

Yes it’s very stupid. Kate is a Pearson tho and a special snowflake and teaching blind kids to sing is her dream or something now lol. Never mind I’m sure she could find a similar job if she moved and she could still be there for Rebecca.

Toby should stop being so selfish supporting his family and just be unemployed but also still somehow be able to pay all the bills so Kate can work her dumb part time job lol.

The British guy breaking up with the woman cause she was boring was supposed to be signalling he will be with Kate because she’s so interesting. But I’m not sure how she is interesting like at all. If the future scene of her marrying the British guy isn’t somehow a fake out I’m going to be so annoyed and hate this show even more lol.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Marley

[CountryGirl]

Nothing was said whatsoever about Toby being selfish or a bad guy for wanting to earn money for his family. But I stand by my opinion that his unilateral decision to accept the job, knowing it would require uprooting his family or the alternative of them not seeing him half the time, without consulting Kate, his wife and the mother of his children, until it was a done deal was wrong. He has history with keeping things from her (his weight loss and the whole CrossFit nonsense) that doesn’t sit well with me  

i cannot imagine my spouse doing that behind my back for one moment.  They have two very young children, one of whom is special needs, and Kate, who has the lion’s share of caring for them, has a support system in LA, something she will not have in San Francisco.

While I empathize with Tony, I completely see Kate’s POV in not wanting to move, considering all of that and the fact that based on what we’ve seen thus far, Toby’s job is a pressure cooker where he’s likely going to be working more hours than the 8-5/Monday-Friday and Kate and the kids are likely to still have large pockets of time where he isn’t there and now, she has zero support. A solid paycheck is clearly important but a spouse and kids need more than that.

Part of her support system is her mother, Rebecca, who has been diagnosed with Alzheimer’s and her condition is beginning to worsen, a fact of which Toby was well aware. He knows their history and how they have become much closer of late, especially with Rebecca and Miguel moving to LA to be with Kate and their grandchildren, and now they are on borrowed time. It’s an almost 6 hour car ride, which isn’t going to be very feasible for Rebecca, given her condition, or Kate with two toddlers nor are frequent flights for the same reasons.

I’m also a bit head-tilty at Kate’s job and her own career aspirations and the work she is doing with kids that are similar to her own son being so easy dismissed. 

Toby, as her spouse, deserves top consideration, but that should be a two-way street and it’s clearly not. 

Additionally, I don’t find it reasonable to expect Kate to support his needs to the exclusion of her own and those of their children. Nor do I find her selfish with her decision to stay. 

[chocolatine]

31 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

Nothing was said whatsoever about Toby being selfish or a bad guy for wanting to earn money for his family. But I stand by my opinion that his unilateral decision to accept the job, knowing it would require uprooting his family or the alternative of them not seeing him half the time, without consulting Kate, his wife and the mother of his children, until it was a done deal was wrong.

He didn't make the unilateral decision to accept the job, only to apply. He and Kate decided together that he would accept, and that he would continue looking for jobs in LA so that the SF situation would be temporary. By that point, Toby had been unemployed for months and they were running out of savings, so he wasn't in the position to turn down a job offer. Kate's job, while really important to her, doesn't pay enough to support their family.

It's a compromise for both of them, not just for Kate.

[bros402]

I was thinking that Kate was going to be angry about Toby's present because she wanted to spend the day with the kids because she was lonely without Toby or something - but instead she was just angry about the present

 

On 1/5/2022 at 11:11 AM, 3 is enough said:

Where was Annie? I only saw Deja and Tess.  

Annie was in the background of the scene when Randall asked her to come into the other room - she was doing somewhere at a table where she was writing on some paper.

[Johnny Dollar]

These people are insufferable, self-pitying narcissists who quite literally think the world should stop for them.

Kevin: “Oh! Why do bad things have to happen to our mother! Oh, why does my former not-girlfriend think that she can move on from me! Oh, why am I forced to make millions of dollars in a stupid sitcom instead of being able to practice my art?”

Randall: “Oh! I’m a 41 year old man with a hot wife and gorgeous kids.  How can someone like me have lost three parents (one I didn’t know and one I barely knew) and now am losing a fourth! Let me go give that robber a piece of my mind! Oh, he’s a drug addict who could’ve been any one of us (not really)!  Why didn’t he feel the Randall magic and come to the shelter?”

Kate: “Oh! Poor me has a husband who has to work hundreds of miles from home making a decent salary because we can’t live off of my part time minimum wage gig as a classroom aide! Oh, what kind of loser husband gets his stressed out wife a child free day at home along with a massage! I though he’d do something bigger from hundreds of miles away!”

Even Nicky got into the act: “Oh! Poor nasty misogynistic me! Why isn’t this woman, who a had a four week fling with fifty years ago (and probably barely remembers) not searching the globe for her one true love!”

This entire family needs to get over themselves. Bad stuff happens to everyone. Get therapy if you need it and move on already!

Random thoughts:

Even the reporters on the scene and the control tower didn’t know what was going on when the Challenger exploded. There were no Hindenburg “oh the humanity” proclamations at the time. The idea that 6 or 7 year old kids grasped what was going on before the teacher turned off the tv is ludicrous.

Sorry, but the idea that the British guy left his “intelligent and beautiful” girlfriend because she was boring and eventually ended up with Kate is far-fetched at best.  When did Kate become some sparkling conversationalist? And why would she go for such an arrogant prick like him? I find it hard to believe that he would last one minute with her once the Pearson Family drama begins. 

[himela]

I just don't want to see that Kate's boss, who is used to be with gorgeous women, suddenly at 45 has a middle life crisis and realizes that looks isn't everything THAT'S WHY he ends up with Kate. Like Kate, being obese, is a "compromise" of a kind for him that he has to make in order to be with a woman who doesn't bore him.

[Crs97]

I take Kate’s situation seriously because I am in the process of doing it for the third time.  Two babies, one with significant special needs, and we moved cross country away from my huge family after months of husband working many states away and flying home on weekends.  Settled, built a support system from scratch, had two more children, and then moved several states away because his job required it.  Now living apart because it’s a child’s senior year but when school is over we will move several hours away so we can be together again.  Again, his job required it.  Is it hard?  Yes, of course, as much for him as for her, but it is what you do for the family you built together.  You go where the job is.  Toby tried for months to find a job in the area and couldn’t, and he explained how every day he was unemployed made it harder to stay relevant in his field.  

Maybe my problem is that we know their relationship is ending; if this is the reason why, well he is the one still making an effort and making the huge gestures (even in person by showing up as a surprise).  Listening to her complain to the massage therapist he hired for her that it wasn’t enough because he wasn’t there in person just rubs me all the wrong way.

[CountryGirl]

8 hours ago, chocolatine said:

He didn't make the unilateral decision to accept the job, only to apply. He and Kate decided together that he would accept, and that he would continue looking for jobs in LA so that the SF situation would be temporary. By that point, Toby had been unemployed for months and they were running out of savings, so he wasn't in the position to turn down a job offer. Kate's job, while really important to her, doesn't pay enough to support their family.

It's a compromise for both of them, not just for Kate.

I rewatched the scene where he announced he had the offer for the start-up job to Kate. 

She knew he was interviewing and that the start-up was one he was really hoping to get but she had zero clue that there was the very real possibility of him having to be in San Francisco a good portion of the time. It's clear in the below clip that he has all but accepted it, regardless of her misgivings. He doesn't even give her a minute to process everything but instead, he's spouting out all the reasons why he must take this job. 

What some call compromise, I call Kate caving because it was pretty clear it was a done-deal in his mind. And this isn't to say Toby isn't compromising, too. He is, but I'm not going to view Kate as wrong in her feelings here. Should she be la-di-da, so what I only see my husband and my kids their father a few days a week? I don't think so. 

Just because others (my own ILs among them) are and were fine with similar arrangements doesn't mean Kate has to be fine with it, too, and from where I sit, she is making it work, while juggling two young kids and a part-time job and a mother with Alzheimer's. She is holding down the fort so that he can work elsewhere. I'd hardly call that zero effort on her part.

Months have gone by and I didn't see any whiff of Toby looking for other jobs closer to home (what's the saying, it's much easier to find a job when you have one already), only getting more and more sucked into his job and his new life in San Francisco. 

I also don't see Kate as being whiny about his birthday gift of a massage and the kids being taken on an outing by their grandparents and great-uncle. She appreciated it, but she doesn't want or need all of that - she just wants and needs him. Birthday or not.

Because again, it's not about her birthday, it's all about all the moments that are being missed as @Ohiopirate02 so aptly said. 

I can have empathy for Toby as well as Kate. There is plenty of room for both AFAIC.

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

I can have empathy for Toby as well as Kate. There is plenty of room for both AFAIC.

So can I.  I realize the writing has let down the character of Kate and she is now in BEC territory for many of the posters here.  The fact that we all now know she and Toby are heading to divorce coupled with Kate getting remarried sometime in the future does not help this.  

I do actually find this storyline to be interesting.   Many families have dealt with separations like this, and not all of them survive it. I know my parents did.  My dad was out of work for close to 2 years before getting another fulltime job that required him to be away from us for close to a year.  We have seen cracks in the Pearson-Damon marriage with Toby's emotional affair with his Crossfit buddy.  

[Jax7917]

3 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

These people are insufferable, self-pitying narcissists who quite literally think the world should stop for them.

Kevin: “Oh! Why do bad things have to happen to our mother! Oh, why does my former not-girlfriend think that she can move on from me! Oh, why am I forced to make millions of dollars in a stupid sitcom instead of being able to practice my art?”

Randall: “Oh! I’m a 41 year old man with a hot wife and gorgeous kids.  How can someone like me have lost three parents (one I didn’t know and one I barely knew) and now am losing a fourth! Let me go give that robber a piece of my mind! Oh, he’s a drug addict who could’ve been any one of us (not really)!  Why didn’t he feel the Randall magic and come to the shelter?”

Kate: “Oh! Poor me has a husband who has to work hundreds of miles from home making a decent salary because we can’t live off of my part time minimum wage gig as a classroom aide! Oh, what kind of loser husband gets his stressed out wife a child free day at home along with a massage! I though he’d do something bigger from hundreds of miles away!”

Even Nicky got into the act: “Oh! Poor nasty misogynistic me! Why isn’t this woman, who a had a four week fling with fifty years ago (and probably barely remembers) not searching the globe for her one true love!”

This entire family needs to get over themselves. Bad stuff happens to everyone. Get therapy if you need it and move on already!

Random thoughts:

Even the reporters on the scene and the control tower didn’t know what was going on when the Challenger exploded. There were no Hindenburg “oh the humanity” proclamations at the time. The idea that 6 or 7 year old kids grasped what was going on before the teacher turned off the tv is ludicrous.

Sorry, but the idea that the British guy left his “intelligent and beautiful” girlfriend because she was boring and eventually ended up with Kate is far-fetched at best.  When did Kate become some sparkling conversationalist? And why would she go for such an arrogant prick like him? I find it hard to believe that he would last one minute with her once the Pearson Family drama begins. 

I am hysterically laughing while reading your post. This really is one narcissistic bunch.

[CountryGirl]

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

So can I.  I realize the writing has let down the character of Kate and she is now in BEC territory for many of the posters here.  The fact that we all now know she and Toby are heading to divorce coupled with Kate getting remarried sometime in the future does not help this.  

I do actually find this storyline to be interesting.   Many families have dealt with separations like this, and not all of them survive it. I know my parents did.  My dad was out of work for close to 2 years before getting another fulltime job that required him to be away from us for close to a year.  We have seen cracks in the Pearson-Damon marriage with Toby's emotional affair with his Crossfit buddy.  

Nodding along to all of this.

And I should add that Kate is frequently in BEC territory for me, but not this time. 

I do agree, too, that knowing that Toby and Kate divorce in the future is causing folks to choose sides when it hasn't even happened yet and, as I've said, I like and empathize with both. Unless, of course, they are throwing in a red herring, which may include the theory that Philip is Madison's British half-brother, although I don't think them not divorcing is a red herring, much less that Philip is Madison's sibling and that he's there for Kevin's wedding to Madison (I don't see them ever getting married either and I think Kevin could be getting married to someone we - and he - haven't even met yet). 

My good friend from college dealt with this situation, although it was a bit different in the initial circumstances. Her husband's work relocated and it was work there during the week every other week or find another job. He expected her, much like Toby did with Kate, to immediately pack up and move their life, which included kids aged 6 and 9. Much like Kate, she balked. She was a SAH mom, but like Kate, she had the lion's share of child-care to contend with, especially during the summers, regardless of location, but at least staying meant her entire support structure was very close by. She also had a part-time job that of course did not pay all their bills but was pretty much her dream job. Their kids were still young but settled in schools, activities, friends.  They struck a deal that they would try it for a year and he would look for other work in the meantime. 

Long story short, the long-distance thing went on for about 4 years until he finally accepted a position close to home. It was definitely not easy, but they will celebrate 25 years of marriage later this year, so clearly, they made it work. 

[Jax7917]

41 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

Nodding along to all of this.

And I should add that Kate is frequently in BEC territory for me, but not this time. 

I do agree, too, that knowing that Toby and Kate divorce in the future is causing folks to choose sides when it hasn't even happened yet and, as I've said, I like and empathize with both. Unless, of course, they are throwing in a red herring, which may include the theory that Philip is Madison's British half-brother, although I don't think them not divorcing is a red herring, much less that Philip is Madison's sibling and that he's there for Kevin's wedding to Madison (I don't see them ever getting married either and I think Kevin could be getting married to someone we - and he - haven't even met yet). 

My good friend from college dealt with this situation, although it was a bit different in the initial circumstances. Her husband's work relocated and it was work there during the week every other week or find another job. He expected her, much like Toby did with Kate, to immediately pack up and move their life, which included kids aged 6 and 9. Much like Kate, she balked. She was a SAH mom, but like Kate, she had the lion's share of child-care to contend with, especially during the summers, regardless of location, but at least staying meant her entire support structure was very close by. She also had a part-time job that of course did not pay all their bills but was pretty much her dream job. Their kids were still young but settled in schools, activities, friends.  They struck a deal that they would try it for a year and he would look for other work in the meantime. 

Long story short, the long-distance thing went on for about 4 years until he finally accepted a position close to home. It was definitely not easy, but they will celebrate 25 years of marriage later this year, so clearly, they made it work. 

If I am remembering correctly, Kate was wearing a wedding dress in the bridal suite. I don't know, something does seem off with all of it and this show pulls out some twists, so who knows what the truth really will be until it happens. That British guy is annoying though and comes off more like a joke than a real person.

[JMarie99]

On 1/6/2022 at 12:10 PM, smartymarty said:

Kids that young have pets die and don't care. (My grandmother died when I was in kindergarten, and my only thought was that we wouldn't visit her anymore.

I guess it depends on the kid. My grandkids (ages 5 and 8) are very sad that their cousin’s cat recently died, and they are already worried about their elderly dog who has already had a few health scares. When Lenny finally does cross that rainbow bridge, they will be devastated. And if I were to pass away I know they would be heartbroken. Of course I see them a couple of times a week, so it’s more than just visits. 
The Challenger thing has already been addressed here so I won’t belabor it. But never underestimate the emotions and feelings of a young child. If you could meet my grandson, who just turned five, you’d understand. 

[Crs97]

Be with any group of kids in a church setting and ask for prayer intentions, you pray for every dead pet of every relative or friend of each child.  They get it.

[Josiemae]

On 1/5/2022 at 3:03 PM, Tango64 said:

Kate is some kind of pscyho for standing there listening to that terrible breakup scene and then immediately walking in to the office. 

But then again, he did call her in for an "emergency," that turned out to be a birthday song for her. So maybe she felt she had to talk to him right away. The whole scenario just felt off, like nothing real human beings would do.

I agree. The part that bugged me the most, though, was the trite expression "watching paint dry". Really show? The writers couldn't come up with a funnier metaphor than that tired cliche? 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Josiemae

[CrystalBlue]

This is the set up for Arrogant Prick British Teacher to suddenly set his sights on Kate, because she is so interesting?  I think he has a complex where his mate can't be better looking than he is, so Stunning Lady Dumpee becomes bo-ring, and Kate, well, they bond over their love of singing blind children and her sparkling conversational skills.

[chocolatine]

47 minutes ago, CrystalBlue said:

This is the set up for Arrogant Prick British Teacher to suddenly set his sights on Kate, because she is so interesting?  I think he has a complex where his mate can't be better looking than he is, so Stunning Lady Dumpee becomes bo-ring, and Kate, well, they bond over their love of singing blind children and her sparkling conversational skills.

I actually liked his meanness in the beginning because I thought finally there's someone on the show who's immune to the Pearson charm. But, it turns out, not for long.

[Katie111]

On 1/6/2022 at 12:19 PM, Ohiopirate02 said:

It's Madison's house from before they hooked up.  Kevin moved in there sometime in 2020 while Covid was raging because he wanted to be in the same Covid bubble with her.  

What does Madison do for work that she can afford a house like that in LA?  I would guess that would easily go for over a million. 

[tribeca]

If anyone gets a spin off it should be Anne.  Then finally we will get to know her.  
 

[ams1001]

26 minutes ago, Katie111 said:

What does Madison do for work that she can afford a house like that in LA?  I would guess that would easily go for over a million. 

This has been asked before and I'm not sure we've every figured out the answer...

[bros402]

Anyone else hoping that Randall bailing the guy out becomes a scandal for him?

Obviously it won't derail his career because of future magazine... but it would be nice

 

16 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

Even Nicky got into the act: “Oh! Poor nasty misogynistic me! Why isn’t this woman, who a had a four week fling with fifty years ago (and probably barely remembers) not searching the globe for her one true love!”

 

Sorry, but the idea that the British guy left his “intelligent and beautiful” girlfriend because she was boring and eventually ended up with Kate is far-fetched at best.  When did Kate become some sparkling conversationalist? And why would she go for such an arrogant prick like him? I find it hard to believe that he would last one minute with her once the Pearson Family drama begins. 

With Nicky, I didn't read it as misogynistic at all - I read it as an old man who doesn't want to take the leap to even try to talk to a woman he fell for.

Obviously the British guy found the Pearson family intellectually stimulating with how almost everyone is a narcissist. He must've been a psychologist in his life before teaching. So, he marries Kate for her family, not for her.

[BoogieBurns]

2 hours ago, ams1001 said:

This has been asked before and I'm not sure we've every figured out the answer...

Madison is an event planner. As am I, and I am comfortable. I just have never ever seen her work.

[ams1001]

36 minutes ago, bros402 said:

Anyone else hoping that Randall bailing the guy out becomes a scandal for him?

Obviously it won't derail his career because of future magazine... but it would be nice

It's probably gonna be the inspiration for starting whatever life-changing program he's being lauded for.

[himela]

6 hours ago, Katie111 said:

What does Madison do for work that she can afford a house like that in LA?  I would guess that would easily go for over a million. 

She is the creator's wife. Oh wait, this is in real life. :P

[qtpye]

On 1/4/2022 at 10:05 PM, Crs97 said:

I really thought Randall was going to bring home the dog.

I want Madison and Kevin back together.

Rebeca’s story is going to break my heart.  Really nice of Miguel to let Nicky live with them.  I loved Rebecca finally letting him have it.  
 

Toby remains a favorite.

 

On 1/4/2022 at 10:39 PM, Runningwild said:

Randall is an idiot. Now the guy has robbed him twice because I doubt he’ll ever show up in court. Bye bye bail money. 
 

This Rebecca story is going to kill me. 

 

On 1/5/2022 at 7:05 AM, Chatty Cake said:

Beth is downright obnoxious. 
Randall irritated me. Now that junkie can rob someone else thanks to him. 
I still think Madison was dumb for not marrying Kevin. He may not have been madly in love but I think he loved her enough. The book club guy seemed like a dolt. 
The pompous British guy is bored by good looking women. What to do, what to do?
Not liking that they want to continue Dejah and her boyfriend. Not believable at all. 
 

 

On 1/5/2022 at 9:31 AM, Jax7917 said:

My biggest fear is getting alzheimers since my grandparents on both sides had it. I know it is a very real-life thing but I don't want to watch it. Jack dying by fire is one thing but watching someone with this slow decline is torture. No disease is fun to watch but this particular one is horrible to watch.

Do the writers ever read reviews about the show? If so, why do they keep writing Randall like this? He is so annoying. This show talks about privilege a lot but bailing this guy out of jail is showing his rich privilege as well as his councilman privilege. Sure, because you feel better about yourself for helping someone, in the mean time you're letting someone else get robbed or possibly worse. I like the anxiety part of his stories but I hate the savior part. It's every damn episode.

Only Kate would complain that Toby surprised her with a massage and a day away from the kids. I'd be jumping for joy and kissing my husband through facetime.

 

On 1/5/2022 at 2:38 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

True confessions: I get annoyed with the sanctifying of Randall, and I sincerely couldn't care less about any of the offspring (except baby Jack), but on the whole, I still love this show. And I love Jack. And I loved REO Speedwagon back in the day. :)

I should add though, I'm glad they are ending it - I wish more shows would quit while I still love them.

So Randall sets a man free whose cognitive issues might make him a danger to others but most of all himself? I half expected the guy to pop up in the bedroom where an overjoyed Randall can Pearson all over him.

On 1/6/2022 at 8:35 AM, sadie said:

I was born, raised and still live about 15 miles from Kennedy Space Center. I was a teen when Challenger happened and watched it explode live (not on tv). To this day any time I see it replayed it brings me to tears. 
 

Onto the show. Good to know Randall is as sanctimonious as ever, why the goddess that is Beth puts up with him remains the biggest mystery ever portrayed on television. I don’t care about Deja AT ALL and am upset they are goi g to waste our time in the final season on her.   
Kate is just the worst, I hope the actress is saving her money because work for her after this will drill down to nothing. There is nothing she relays on camera that makes her so interesting that all these men are attracted to her (and no I’m not referring to her weight), she’s just blah. Don’t get it at all.

Kevin, well he’s just so pretty that it distracts me. His story is dumb, someone with his money living in a garage just stretches credibility.

Mandy Moore is hitting it out of the park and is one of the only reasons I’m still watching.

They have really just worn out the need for Milo. I’m glad this show is ending, it started out so good and has just delved into nothing special. 

 

20 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

These people are insufferable, self-pitying narcissists who quite literally think the world should stop for them.

Kevin: “Oh! Why do bad things have to happen to our mother! Oh, why does my former not-girlfriend think that she can move on from me! Oh, why am I forced to make millions of dollars in a stupid sitcom instead of being able to practice my art?”

Randall: “Oh! I’m a 41 year old man with a hot wife and gorgeous kids.  How can someone like me have lost three parents (one I didn’t know and one I barely knew) and now am losing a fourth! Let me go give that robber a piece of my mind! Oh, he’s a drug addict who could’ve been any one of us (not really)!  Why didn’t he feel the Randall magic and come to the shelter?”

Kate: “Oh! Poor me has a husband who has to work hundreds of miles from home making a decent salary because we can’t live off of my part time minimum wage gig as a classroom aide! Oh, what kind of loser husband gets his stressed out wife a child free day at home along with a massage! I though he’d do something bigger from hundreds of miles away!”

Even Nicky got into the act: “Oh! Poor nasty misogynistic me! Why isn’t this woman, who a had a four week fling with fifty years ago (and probably barely remembers) not searching the globe for her one true love!”

This entire family needs to get over themselves. Bad stuff happens to everyone. Get therapy if you need it and move on already!

Random thoughts:

Even the reporters on the scene and the control tower didn’t know what was going on when the Challenger exploded. There were no Hindenburg “oh the humanity” proclamations at the time. The idea that 6 or 7 year old kids grasped what was going on before the teacher turned off the tv is ludicrous.

Sorry, but the idea that the British guy left his “intelligent and beautiful” girlfriend because she was boring and eventually ended up with Kate is far-fetched at best.  When did Kate become some sparkling conversationalist? And why would she go for such an arrogant prick like him? I find it hard to believe that he would last one minute with her once the Pearson Family drama begins. 

Word to both these posts. 

[SunnyBeBe]

On 1/7/2022 at 8:14 AM, Johnny Dollar said:

These people are insufferable, self-pitying narcissists who quite literally think the world should stop for them.

Kevin: “Oh! Why do bad things have to happen to our mother! Oh, why does my former not-girlfriend think that she can move on from me! Oh, why am I forced to make millions of dollars in a stupid sitcom instead of being able to practice my art?”

Randall: “Oh! I’m a 41 year old man with a hot wife and gorgeous kids.  How can someone like me have lost three parents (one I didn’t know and one I barely knew) and now am losing a fourth! Let me go give that robber a piece of my mind! Oh, he’s a drug addict who could’ve been any one of us (not really)!  Why didn’t he feel the Randall magic and come to the shelter?”

Kate: “Oh! Poor me has a husband who has to work hundreds of miles from home making a decent salary because we can’t live off of my part time minimum wage gig as a classroom aide! Oh, what kind of loser husband gets his stressed out wife a child free day at home along with a massage! I though he’d do something bigger from hundreds of miles away!”

Even Nicky got into the act: “Oh! Poor nasty misogynistic me! Why isn’t this woman, who a had a four week fling with fifty years ago (and probably barely remembers) not searching the globe for her one true love!”

This entire family needs to get over themselves. Bad stuff happens to everyone. Get therapy if you need it and move on already!

Random thoughts:

Even the reporters on the scene and the control tower didn’t know what was going on when the Challenger exploded. There were no Hindenburg “oh the humanity” proclamations at the time. The idea that 6 or 7 year old kids grasped what was going on before the teacher turned off the tv is ludicrous.

Sorry, but the idea that the British guy left his “intelligent and beautiful” girlfriend because she was boring and eventually ended up with Kate is far-fetched at best.  When did Kate become some sparkling conversationalist? And why would she go for such an arrogant prick like him? I find it hard to believe that he would last one minute with her once the Pearson Family drama begins. 

Great points.  
 

I was in college at a work study job on campus when Challenger exploded. There were about 5 other people there watching it on tv and we didn’t realize what happened.  Even the news announcer was confused.  I guess the Pearson children were told afterwards.  I think the show tries too hard to stretch things that happened in the lives’ of the big three to explain why they are the way they are now.   
 

My issue with Randall is that he must know that some criminals are unstable and can get focused on someone who confronts them and seek revenge.  Initially, he wanted to confront the man…..not a good idea. The guy could later come to confront you again, if he ever gets out.  Randall seems unaware that now days people will kill you for taking their parking space. You don’t confront just anybody. It’s not safe. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by SunnyBeBe

[Ohmo]

On 1/7/2022 at 8:42 AM, CountryGirl said:

she just wants and needs him. Birthday or not.

Then move to San Francisco with the kids. I'm not saying this to try to be unkind to Kate, but this is where they are.  Assuming that Kate has her full teaching credential (the show has been a bit fuzzy on this), she will be moving within California.  Nothing is preventing her from finding another job.

I agree that Toby did spring the job on her, but I also seem to remember that he had looked in the LA area for months with no success. Life isn't fair. I understand that, but Kate should understand that, too. Her father died at a young age. Her son has a disability. Both not fair, but both reality.

As others have alluded to, maybe I'd feel differently if I thought Kate HAD an actual support system, but she doesn't. Not really. Rebecca and Miguel do help, but Rebecca's health is declining.  We don't see Kate interacting with any sort of support system, but, based on what we've seen in the flash forward, we're now seeing the beginnings of her eventuality with Phillip.

The pretext is distasteful to me. Kate has few friends. We don't see her hang out with Madison a bunch, so the idea that Kate must have her support system is BS to me. This is all about clearing the deck for her and Phillip, not about the fact that Toby found a job in SF. Kate can have the kids, Toby, and a job----all in San Francisco.  But that's not really what this is about.

[debraran]

20 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

Then move to San Francisco with the kids. I'm not saying this to try to be unkind to Kate, but this is where they are.  Assuming that Kate has her full teaching credential (the show has been a bit fuzzy on this), she will be moving within California.  Nothing is preventing her from finding another job.

I agree that Toby did spring the job on her, but I also seem to remember that he had looked in the LA area for months with no success. Life isn't fair. I understand that, but Kate should understand that, too. Her father died at a young age. Her son has a disability. Both not fair, but both reality.

As others have alluded to, maybe I'd feel differently if I thought Kate HAD an actual support system, but she doesn't. Not really. Rebecca and Miguel do help, but Rebecca's health is declining.  We don't see Kate interacting with any sort of support system, but, based on what we've seen in the flash forward, we're now seeing the beginnings of her eventuality with Phillip.

The pretext is distasteful to me. Kate has few friends. We don't see her hang out with Madison a bunch, so the idea that Kate must have her support system is BS to me. This is all about clearing the deck for her and Phillip, not about the fact that Toby found a job in SF. Kate can have the kids, Toby, and a job----all in San Francisco.  But that's not really what this is about.

Since this show loved the "realism" aspect, although nothing really is, i always didn't like the lack of friends. I realize on a TV show, the friends have to be paid or become "regulars" if often, but even mentioning  name is okay. Rebecca except for the black woman by the pool (name?) who's pic was on the mantle with kids, had no support system or friends. She lived as a stay home wife and mom in a suburb with 3 kids in school and never had a lunch or party or club or anything with anyone. So of course when Jack died, it was Randall whom she hung out with. Even then, a grief group, nothing was mentioned. Kevin was "popular" and shown with Sophie and others, but no one special and Randall? Did he bond with anyone at his school? Later he wanted to follow a friend to Howard but that was changed by his dad's death and Rebecca wanting him around.  Kate never was shown with friends really and they emphasized mean girls but of course there should have been someone she liked and liked her. She had no music outlets, lessons, choir or the like mentioned at all. It was very unrealistic. I'm glad Jack had Miguel and it isn't so far fetched, he became Rebecca's right arm, since she had no one else.

 

 

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, Ohmo said:

Then move to San Francisco with the kids. I'm not saying this to try to be unkind to Kate, but this is where they are.  Assuming that Kate has her full teaching credential (the show has been a bit fuzzy on this), she will be moving within California.  Nothing is preventing her from finding another job.

 

To be fair, Toby has only had this job for 2 months.  He's still in a trial period.  Immediately selling your house to move to one of the most expensive areas in the country is not always the right choice for your family.  What if the job doesn't work out and Toby is unemployed again?  Sometimes waiting a few months is the correct choice.

[Ohmo]

19 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

To be fair, Toby has only had this job for 2 months.  He's still in a trial period.  Immediately selling your house to move to one of the most expensive areas in the country is not always the right choice for your family.  What if the job doesn't work out and Toby is unemployed again?  Sometimes waiting a few months is the correct choice.

True. And again, the show has tipped its hand with the flash forward.  I just don't like the notion that this is all due to Toby taking this job...as though Kate had no choice in the matter. Your reason is completely valid, but that's a choice.  Another option would have been to go with Toby to San Francisco. Kate had choices.  This is the choice she made. This isn't all Toby's doing, even if he did spring the job on her.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Ohmo

[chocolatine]

According to what Toby said last season, his job requires him to be in SF three days a week, so he's not even gone for the majority of the week. And SF is a one hour flight from LA, so he probably leaves in the morning of the first day and comes home in the evening of the last day, only spending two nights away. As long as he takes on his share of parenting and household duties while he's in LA, this arrangement shouldn't be *that* difficult for Kate, either logistically or emotionally. It's not like he's gone for months at a time.

[Ohiopirate02]

46 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

True. And again, the show has tipped its hand with the flash forward.  I just don't like the notion that this is all due to Toby taking this job...as though Kate had no choice in the matter. Your reason is completely valid, but that's a choice.  Another option would have been to go with Toby to San Francisco. Kate had choices.  This is the choice she made. This isn't all Toby's doing, even if he did spring the job on her.

It also doesn't help that this is the one time the show is taking real life things like distance, time and money into account.  The show spent seasons having Randall, et al.  traipsing through Pennsylvania and New Jersey like it was nothing.  He also was able to quickly sell his NJ home and find the perfect Philly brownstone in between episodes.  Now all of a sudden, those things apparently matter.   

[PRgal]

That whole shelter thing with the crook could get Randall criticized and booted out of office when re-election time comes.  People might not like hearing their councilperson do something like that!

[bros402]

12 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

It also doesn't help that this is the one time the show is taking real life things like distance, time and money into account.  The show spent seasons having Randall, et al.  traipsing through Pennsylvania and New Jersey like it was nothing.  He also was able to quickly sell his NJ home and find the perfect Philly brownstone in between episodes.  Now all of a sudden, those things apparently matter.   

and he was in north jersey, too - not like Randall was in south (or even Central!) jersey

Edited January 9, 2022 by bros402

[qtpye]

On 1/6/2022 at 7:01 AM, Scarlett45 said:

I didn’t take it like that. I took it that he acknowledges the woman is beautiful and intelligent but he isn’t entertained by her and doesn’t enjoy her company in a dating aspect.
 

Just because someone is good looking and intelligent doesn’t mean they are going to vibe with everyone they date.(of course we all know that I’m just saying) He was saying that he’s not going to keep dating someone he’s not into just because she’s beautiful. 

I could be wrong but I wasn’t appalled by the scene. Likely he had already told her he wasn’t interested in seeing her any more and she wanted to know “why”- so she approached him again at work (did she work there? I didn’t follow)
 

Unless someone is seriously committed (like engagement or marriage) I don’t really think “why” matters, if they don’t want to date you any more, and tell you directly and politely, I would hold onto my dignity and complain to my friends. The “why” is irrelevant. 
 

Edited to add- but I do wonder how he and Kate get together. Her “meet cute” with Toby was way better. 

 

On 1/6/2022 at 8:23 AM, Chanandler Bong said:

Of course Kate isn’t satisfied by Toby’s incredibly thoughtful gesture of arranging for her to have an entire afternoon to herself and sending a massage therapist TO THE HOUSE. Seems like a pretty grand gesture to me.

Philip’s girlfriend was STUN.NING! He was unnecessarily cruel. Still can’t imagine how he and Kate end up together.

I just don’t care about Nicky’s storyline at all. I find his presence on the show grating — he’s such a Debbie Downer.

Kevin’s hella rich — couldn’t he buy his own place in like 5 seconds?

I don’t get why Rebecca was worried about Kevin after the Challenger explosion. Even if he wasn’t “protecting himself” as Jack said, and truly thought that what he saw wasn’t real — that seems like a pretty reasonable thought for a 5-6 year old. Especially considering that he watched it on tv, which is probably usually 99.9% fictional content when he watches it.

I’m not old enough to remember the Challenger explosion, but I wondered if it would have the same effect today as it did then, given that with today’s news cycle we’re almost constantly bombarded with tragic stories. (Not that the Challenger wasn’t horrific.)

Oh, Randall. Just choose door Beth. Always choose door Beth.

I truthfully do not understand why the audience had to witness the scene of the British guy dumping that beautiful and supposedly intelligent woman because she is boring. Am I supposed to be impressed that such a woman desires him? That he would rather have a sparkling personality than beauty and that somehow makes him deep?

In truth, I could care less. A man his age will have past relationships that do not work out and I have no idea what the Hell I was supposed to learn from that scene. 

On 1/6/2022 at 8:43 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

I don't see Chrissy Metz as a bad actress.  There's only so much an actor can do with bad writing.  And the writing for Kate has been consistently bad.  The writers flat out do not know what to do with Kate after their weight loss storyline back in season one was DOA.  Chrissy is doing her best with subpar material and subpar direction.  When she is given good material and better direction, she does shine.  

The actress can be quite appealing but the writing for both her and Randall have been terrible. Randall is a sanctimonious idiot and Kate is a Mary Sue. They tell us she is amazing instead of show us why that is the case.

The writing has only been interesting for Kevin, who of course is a gorgeous cisgendered rich white male.

[ams1001]

7 hours ago, bros402 said:

and he was in north jersey, too - not like Randall was in south (or even Central!) jersey

I groaned at that one scene when he said it took an hour to drive with Deja to Philly. They practically lived in New York. I'm in Central Jersey and it takes an hour and a half to get to Philly, and at least that long to get to NY (and that's without a lot of traffic, which...doesn't really happen, at least not during the day).

3 hours ago, qtpye said:

In truth, I could care less. A man his age will have past relationships that do not work out and I have no idea what the Hell I was supposed to learn from that scene. 

All I learned is that he's an asshole who doesn't feel the need to be the least bit kind or empathetic when breaking up with someone. Why would I want to date someone who I saw firsthand treat his previous partner like that?

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, ams1001 said:

I groaned at that one scene when he said it took an hour to drive with Deja to Philly. They practically lived in New York. I'm in Central Jersey and it takes an hour and a half to get to Philly, and at least that long to get to NY (and that's without a lot of traffic, which...doesn't really happen, at least not during the day).

All I learned is that he's an asshole who doesn't feel the need to be the least bit kind or empathetic when breaking up with someone. Why would I want to date someone who I saw firsthand treat his previous partner like that?

I agree. That is why it is confusing that this is the person Kate ends up with. Is Kate the one who turns this asshole into a prince? Is Toby going to crash the wedding as one of his grand gestures to profess his love for Kate?

[Aloeonatable]

On 1/6/2022 at 1:15 PM, Shermie said:

have no issue with Jack still being present on the show. The entire premise is to show how this particular family group came to be, and a big part of their experience is being Jack’s child, wife, friend, brother. Of course he’s going to be a long-lasting influence.

Amen to this. In a recent interview, Milo said his role will now be is support of the other characters' stories. He has and will continue to be first on the cast list.