S01.E08: The Eye of the World

[CatWarmer]

For a moment I thought that was Rand on the beach at the end and he was about to discover the Statue of Liberty.

But other than that, I'm relatively lost. Better than Foundation for sure, but much prefer Witcher.  And Expanse.

[Which Tyler]

 

[SueB]

1 hour ago, Which Tyler said:

 

It surprises me May had that much time at the start. I had no doubt Moraine would be first.  I thought Lan would be second.  Some of this has to do with Rosalind Pike’s involvement as Executive Producer IMO.  But she is also a way of showing the Aes Sedei culture.  

[Danny Franks]

I think Rosamund was serving the same role that Game of Thrones had its adult actors fill in the first couple of seasons - taking the weight of the production until Amazon trusts the younger actors fully.

I think she did a really good job of it this season, and I think Josha, Madeleine and Zoe all absolutely proved they can carry the load. Marcus still needs to do more than look pained and frustrated, and we have no idea what Nu Mat is going to be like. This isn't to say I think her role will be diminished greatly in season two, but I do expect to see more of the younger characters than we did this season.

[Avaleigh]

I really want to like this show but for me it's been kind of a dull ride. On the plus side, I think the production values are top notch for the most part save the costumes.( I really think they dropped the ball there and hope they step it up next season.) The locations and set designs all get an A+.

The writing though? Most of the characters are bland. Moiraine, Lan, Nynaeve and Mat are the only ones where I feel like I at least care a little to find out what happens with them next season. (Btw what happened with the Mat actor and why did he have to be recast? I haven't been able to find a straightforward answer.)

Perrin, Egwene and Rand is a love triangle I couldn't care less about. All this time spent on Egwene and Rand and they're easily the least interesting characters for me. 

Also, word to the poster who said this show basically has no humor. Maybe there was a little from the clairvoyant bartender but just because a show is a dramatic fantasy shouldn't mean that it can't have a little humor. 

[Which Tyler]

37 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

(Btw what happened with the Mat actor and why did he have to be recast? I haven't been able to find a straightforward answer.)

 

That's because no-one who isn't involved, knows.

We just know he left and deleted social media accounts, and that nobody is commenting.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Which Tyler

[Haleth]

Wait, so Rand really is the Dragon Reborn?  That is so disappointing.  All these kick ass women and they are dependent on the boring but cute white boy?  I guess that means the other 4 are just sidekicks?  Boo.

All the simultaneous action was fun, suspenseful.  Until it wasn't anymore.

On 12/24/2021 at 7:40 AM, Danny Franks said:

But Rand defeating him was incredibly anti-climactic.

Yup.  Not much of an internal battle.

Too much of the fight in the city looked like Helm's Deep.  They even had a legendary horn.  Good thing it was so dark because from what I could see the CGI was terrible. 

Moraine losing her powers made me momentarily confuse her with Yennifer.  Oi, all these fantasies are too much alike.

13 hours ago, CatWarmer said:

And Expanse.

Absolutely.  Best show on tv.

In all, it was fun and pretty.  I'm sure I'll forget it all by the time season 2 rolls around.  I may pick up the book if I have nothing else to read, but the show didn't make me all that eager to dive into it.

[staphdude]

18 hours ago, Haleth said:

Wait, so Rand really is the Dragon Reborn?  That is so disappointing.  All these kick ass women and they are dependent on the boring but cute white boy?  I guess that means the other 4 are just sidekicks?  Boo.

The thing is Rand is more kick ass than the women. The problem is the writer just chose to mess up his character development.  As Fain implied in the finale, the other four have their role to play it is just not as the main protagonist.

[phoenics]

On 12/25/2021 at 1:17 PM, staphdude said:

Given the complaints of anticlimax perhaps they should have dispensed with the who is the dragon and just gone with the established conclusion and then done a bit more character, plot and relationship development. As it is non book readers seem disappointed while readers are frustrated.

These books are no YA lit so why would a show runner go down that route. So sad.

I'm not disappointed I'm just confused as a non-book reader.  The episode felt fragmented in so many places and the whole Rand and Dark One part was so completely confusing.  Is Ishmael the Dark One?  Are they separate?  What does it mean this was the first battle? I'm SO confused.  Not enough to stop watching - I still love this show so so much and I'm invested.

I had to watch the episode twice to understand what I saw and while I sort of get what Padan Fain or whoever was saying, I don't believe him - or I believe TDO has hoodwinked all the DarkFriends to think that's his goal when really it's to wipe everyone out.  But I don't really understand what anything means for S2 though - especially not the tidal wave part?  Wha - ?

It was cool seeing Wakanda in the beginning though.

The part with the women channelling to defeat the Trolloc Army was awesome - in one shot you could see how much of the light Nynaeve and Egwene were able to pull.  And it was cool to see how channelling can burn you out if you draw too much.

I honestly felt more from Egwene when Nynaeve 'died' than at any time with Rand.  And that whole thing with Rand having to choose the right path - I get WHY he had to overcome that but him coming to recognize that just felt like - wait - I'm applauding him for realizing he can't force Egwene to be a happy homemaker?  Coupled with the disappointment that he really IS the dragon - this conflict he's dealing with felt inherently ... dated.  Like a protagonist realizing this in the 80s makes sense but in 2021 I guess I expect my protagonists to already BE where Rand eventually landed, but not after a whole ass season of him whining like a little b!tch constantly about Egwene not centering her life around him. So yay he finally caught up but .... also meh.

I'm hoping being the Dragon is much more of a curse than a blessing so that maybe we will get some layers to Rand so he's less bland... maybe this Hayden Christiansen doppelganger will play a descent to the dark side better in this series than in the Star Wars one.

Lan and Nynaeve continue to be the gift that keeps on giving - loved EVERY BIT of them.  That chemistry is just ... wow.  Off the charts.  I love angst and they give it to me in spades.  Loved Lan's comment - he's going to both love and hate the man who Nynaeve choses as her Warder when she becomes an Aes Sedai.  And then she finally tells him how she tracked them - or tracked Moraine and then shows him how so he can find Moraine.  So so good.  Honestly Nynaeve seems to have had the biggest arc all season - you can see where she started and where she landed over the course of the season.  It comes across so much more strongly than Rand's arc. The show really did Lan and Nynaeve right and based on the show socials, they know it.

Is there significance to her being unable to hear the wind though?  What does that mean?  Egwene can still hear it.

I have no idea what's coming in S2 but I'm here for it.

[phoenics]

12 hours ago, staphdude said:

The thing is Rand is more kick ass than the women. The problem is the writer just chose to mess up his character development.  As Fain implied in the finale, the other four have their role to play it is just not as the main protagonist.

I don't feel like this show presents Rand as the main protagonist - that's the thing.  I was surprised when I saw the screentime play out that he was as up there as he was.  His presence on the show has felt so non-protagon-ish to me?

[DoctorAtomic]

 I feel like a little more show time would have cleared up a lot. 

 

[staphdude]

8 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I don't feel like this show presents Rand as the main protagonist - that's the thing.  I was surprised when I saw the screentime play out that he was as up there as he was.  His presence on the show has felt so non-protagon-ish to me?

I won’t add any book details but the main protagonist is well established and if the show runner or writers mess this up in a GoT manner (despite having a fully realized story) that is on them.

Maybe it is having only 8 episodes but certain foundational issues could have been dealt with more thoughtfully especially given their lead time. Hell they could have this entire thing already written given the wealth of source material. The only issue of course is if season length or number gets in the way

[phoenics]

Been doing another rewatch and just noticed that Padan Fain (that's his name, right?) had the dagger Mat had.  How does he have the same dagger?  Were duplicates made?  Because didn't Lan/Moraine dispose of the one Mat had?

Also - what does "focal points of the wheel" mean?  Like - spokes of the wheel? Or just incredibly important to the wheel's pattern?  The wheel is the thing that spins out the pattern, right? Or does it just spin the yarn?

Edited December 29, 2021 by phoenics

[phoenics]

34 minutes ago, staphdude said:

I won’t add any book details but the main protagonist is well established and if the show runner or writers mess this up in a GoT manner (despite having a fully realized story) that is on them.

Maybe it is having only 8 episodes but certain foundational issues could have been dealt with more thoughtfully especially given their lead time. Hell they could have this entire thing already written given the wealth of source material. The only issue of course is if season length or number gets in the way

I think the issue is up until now, they still haven't shown Rand's power.  He still pales in comparison to the 2 bursts of power we've seen from Nynaeve.  Even the way the story framed those two bursts make NYNAEVE look more like the protagonist than Rand. I'm definitely way more interested in her journey than his.  I wanna see her become an Aes Sedai and I want to see what's going on with Egwene, Mat and Perrin too.  Rand? Meh.  

I was shocked when he was revealed to be the dragon - I literally didn't believe it and thought a twist had to be coming.

I wonder if this is because Rand is inexperienced and hasn't come into command of his immense power or what.

Not!HaydenChristiansen hasn't done much to excite me - but I'm sure he could if the writing helped him a little.

Edited December 29, 2021 by phoenics

[Chicago Redshirt]

12 hours ago, staphdude said:

The thing is Rand is more kick ass than the women. The problem is the writer just chose to mess up his character development.  As Fain implied in the finale, the other four have their role to play it is just not as the main protagonist.

People's mileage will of course vary. But I find it hard to buy that the Rand we have seen in the 8 episodes of the show is "more kick ass" than any of the other characters. I assume he will turn out to be eventually, but as of now, he and Egwene are tied for dead last in terms of characters I care about.

A couple of people have brought up that he is reminiscent to Hayden Christiansen's Anakin, and I don't think that's purely about the physical resemblance. Rather, the show has primarily defined him now as the Chosen One who is consumed by his feelings of love and insecurity about Egwene. He has little charisma IMO and in terms of cool feats up to this episode, he broke the heavy door down that the Darkfriend bartender locked him behind. and that is the only thing that comes to mind. I don't see that as more interesting/cool than Nynaeve's defeat of the false Dragon/resurrection of Lan, Perrin's connection with the wolves, the things Moiraine and Lan are up to on the regular, or even the roguishness of Mat. 

The finale should have been a big coming out party for him as a bad ass, but even that was mixed. The First Temptation of Rand Al'Thor didn't really get escaped because Rand was too virtuous or smart to succumb to it, but really because the Dark One did a shitty job creating it and a poor job adjusting. If the Dark One had envisioned a dream world where Rand was together with an Aes Sedai Egwene as her warder, or something more imaginative, or managed to better adjust to Rand's seeing through fake Egwene by offering a better Second Temptation, I have a feeling that would have worked. 

[TheGourmez]

For me, this was an example of a lack of episodes creating a lackluster finale. I enjoyed it! But I didn't really care about the battle because I hadn't got to know anyone protecting the city. I only knew from the excitement book readers convey about the peddler that he was important at all, and even knowing that, he's no more to me than a well-acted peddler who's also a Dark friend, and that is ALL I know about him currently. But I'm clearly supposed to think he's of more importance than I've seen the show portray. 

I wasn't really expecting a climactic magic battle between Rand and the Dark One, so that didn't disappoint me. It seemed more to me that going to the Eye would confirm who the Dragon was rather than be a final battle sort of deal, and that's what happened. I guess Moraine thought the confrontation would be enough to stop the Dark One, but I assumed that wasn't the case because it's merely the end of the first season.

Did the psychic barkeep escape from the city because she believed it would be destroyed? Or did I miss something else?

[DoctorAtomic]

They were just sending non essential personnel out of the city given the size of the Trolloc army. 

To be fair to Rand, they didn't really give him much to do. I kind of wish they made the channeling more overt and have him be more worried about it. I liked that he was legitimately concerned about Mat over that time. 

His life was upended and he snipped at Moirane, but that was it. 

[staphdude]

12 hours ago, phoenics said:

I think the issue is up until now, they still haven't shown Rand's power.  He still pales in comparison to the 2 bursts of power we've seen from Nynaeve. 

I wonder if this is because Rand is inexperienced and hasn't come into command of his immense power or what.

Not!HaydenChristiansen hasn't done much to excite me - but I'm sure he could if the writing helped him a little.

This is exactly the problem. The writers chose to focus on these secondary characters despite their not being the “hero” of the story. That is, imo a failing on their part. Rand is the Dragon and his story and fight will define the last battle.

11 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

People's mileage will of course vary. But I find it hard to buy that the Rand we have seen in the 8 episodes of the show is "more kick ass" than any of the other characters. I assume he will turn out to be eventually, but as of now, he and Egwene are tied for dead last in terms of characters I care about.

A couple of people have brought up that he is reminiscent to Hayden Christiansen's Anakin, and I don't think that's purely about the physical resemblance. Rather, the show has primarily defined him now as the Chosen One who is consumed by his feelings of love and insecurity about Egwene. He has little charisma IMO and in terms of cool feats up to this episode, he broke the heavy door down that the Darkfriend bartender locked him behind. and that is the only thing that comes to mind. I don't see that as more interesting/cool than Nynaeve's defeat of the false Dragon/resurrection of Lan, Perrin's connection with the wolves, the things Moiraine and Lan are up to on the regular, or even the roguishness of Mat. 

The finale should have been a big coming out party for him as a bad ass, but even that was mixed. The First Temptation of Rand Al'Thor didn't really get escaped because Rand was too virtuous or smart to succumb to it, but really because the Dark One did a shitty job creating it and a poor job adjusting. If the Dark One had envisioned a dream world where Rand was together with an Aes Sedai Egwene as her warder, or something more imaginative, or managed to better adjust to Rand's seeing through fake Egwene by offering a better Second Temptation, I have a feeling that would have worked. 

The actor and the writer’s poor material are a drawback but people seem to be looking me for something that isn’t the story laid out n the Wheel of Time.  I feel Rand’s development has been a disservice to the character. However I also feel they have made a ridiculous mess of Ny and Lan. I see no chemistry there and given what we have been shown no reason for their relationship on a deep meaningful level. Wartime pressure filled meaningless hookup maybe but beyond that meh.

I am also pissed at the characterizations of the other Two Rivers folk but that is for the book thead.

Edited December 29, 2021 by staphdude

[Arutha2321]

Question: Is Book 1 talk allowed in this thread (and other episode threads) now that the season is over, or at least the parts that the showrunners have clearly decided to handle very differently? I think it could be interesting for the viewers to know the original intentions.

Of course if these are to be kept purely show-based, I'll keep to the book thread.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Arutha2321

[Ottis]

Most I can say is that the last two eps were vastly better than the first six eps, starting with the pregnant woman fighting for her life.

The way they show channeling the One Power has been nicely done throughout, it just takes too damn long.

The bad guy was disappointing. That’s the terrible Dark One?

Don’t like Egwene, she looks like she is visiting from the home of the Sand Vipers, not the life-long love of an older teen in a remote village. Also, she is screechy.

Agree this was a poor place to pause the narrative between seasons. 

 

[Which Tyler]

2 hours ago, Arutha2321 said:

Question: Is Book 1 talk allowed in this thread (and other episode threads) now that the season is over, or at least the parts that the showrunners have clearly decided to handle very differently? I think it could be interesting for the viewers to know the original intentions.

Of course if these are to be kept purely show-based, I'll keep to the book thread.

Should be no book talk IMO. Otherwise it'll dominate, and annoy the non-readers.

[Arutha2321]

40 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

Should be no book talk IMO. Otherwise it'll dominate, and annoy the non-readers.

You're most likely right. In that light, could I please ask for a thread that's reserved for book talk up to what happened in the show? I myself hesitate to open the book thread as I'm only up to book three in reading and the book thread seems to be full of spoilers for the entire series. And I'd really like to have a discussion on the differences between what the first book did and what they opted for in the series.

[Black Knight]

The episode threads are No Book Talk in perpetuity. The Book to Show thread is the appropriate place for book talk.

The idea of a book talk thread that only goes up to a certain point isn't practical because the show has and will continue to move events around. The Game of Thrones forum had the same rule: If the thread allowed book talk, it allowed talk of all books.

This thread, being the season finale thread, can be used to discuss the entire S1 season, by the by.

[Which Tyler]

11 hours ago, Arutha2321 said:

You're most likely right. In that light, could I please ask for a thread that's reserved for book talk up to what happened in the show? I myself hesitate to open the book thread as I'm only up to book three in reading and the book thread seems to be full of spoilers for the entire series. And I'd really like to have a discussion on the differences between what the first book did and what they opted for in the series.

You could try setting one up - but as BK said - it's tried and failed before. It would also have to be unmoderated by necessity, just asking people to be polite.
This is likely to be especially the case for this show, as it's mixing the books it uses in each season.

Part of the problem is that things get set up, or have implications for future seasons and material from future books - and people will want to discuss those.
Hell, even with moderation, we get enough book talk in the episode threads as it is.

[Danny Franks]

On 12/29/2021 at 7:32 AM, TheGourmez said:

For me, this was an example of a lack of episodes creating a lackluster finale. I enjoyed it! But I didn't really care about the battle because I hadn't got to know anyone protecting the city.

It seems that Covid restrictions and losing the actor who plays Mat caused some very hectic last minute rewrites, which had a knock-on effect for almost every part of the finale.

I'm sure that Mat was due to be stabbed by Fain in the finale, given Fain used the dagger that Mat took from Shadar Logoth (don't know how Fain got it) and was going to play the role Perrin plays, as receiver of exposition. So we don't know what Perrin was going to do.

But we do know that they had a big, set piece battle planned, with lots of stuntmen and physical Trolloc performers, which was nixed because of social distancing and restrictions on how many people could film at once. This meant that the battle was generated almost completely from CGI shots, and close ups of the Agelmar actor. And the increased use of CGI impacted on the quality of it in this episode.

We also know that they lost their primary Blight location, which was a forest in the Canary Islands, and had to build the whole thing on a soundstage. Again, increasing the costs and decreasing the potential to do interesting things - note how most shots are of Rand and Moiraine either sitting or standing still, or walking a few paces.

[rab01]

They needed better editing on this show.  It's been edited as if it's a prestige drama with Oscar-winning actors in it  - long close-ups of the actors feeling their emotions - but 3 of the 5 youngsters (Rand, Perrin, Egwane) aren't up to it yet.  It made the whole thing a little sleepy. 

I agree with everyone else who thought this ending was a bit anticlimactic. 

 

[MrWhyt]

On 12/28/2021 at 8:42 PM, phoenics said:

Is Ishmael the Dark One?  Are they separate?

Ishmael was named in an earlier episode as one of the forsaken

On 12/28/2021 at 9:01 PM, staphdude said:

Hell they could have this entire thing already written given the wealth of source material

they're not going to write scripts for seasons that have yet to be ordered. Outlines maybe, but nobody is going to pay for scripts for seasons that have yet to be greenlit.

 

They definitely needed a few more episodes to flesh things out. But overall as book reader I enjoyed what they made.

[tennisgurl]

I liked a lot of this episode, but I also found a lot of it disappointing. It took me awhile to get around to it, being busy with holiday fun, so after waiting for a week this especially felt like a let down. There was a lot to like, a lot of solid character moments and the big battle was pretty cool, but mostly it felt rushed. I know that the show has to cut things from the books and do its own thing, but this episode more then the rest of the season felt like cliff notes, running from one story point to the next frantically to set up for the next season. Its really where the seven episode limit became a problem, I would have preferred ten episodes or so instead, they really needed the extra time. I really liked the flashbacks to the future style Atlantis looking city, implying that it was destroyed as the wheel was spun last time the dragon was born, I really wanted more. 

I am still really interested in what season two will bring us, and I did really like the season as a whole, but this was a bit of a let down after building up so much to this big climax. I wasn't really expecting a huge battle between Rand the the big bad yet, its only the season one finale, but I was certainly expecting more at the big final confirmation that he's the chosen one at least. The First Temptation of Rand Al'Thor felt weirdly low key all things considered, especially having to be mixed up with a ton of other plots that needed finishing. In general I wanted this episode to do more for Rand, who I like just fine but is the most bland of the main characters so far with the least amount to do, which could be the point but also means its harder to get invested in him. 

Still, this has been a mostly good adaptation of books that are rather tricky to adapt, so we will see what happens next.

[LilJen]

Rand is boring. If he were a boat he’d be the USS Boring McBoringBoat.

[staphdude]

23 hours ago, LilJen said:

Rand is boring. If he were a boat he’d be the USS Boring McBoringBoat.

Crazy how people can screw up a great story….

[Haleth]

It’s just so… expected. You see the 5 candidates: two women, a black guy, a squirrelly guy, and a cute blonde haired blue eyed guy. Which is the chosen one?  Yawn. 

[UnoAgain]

8 hours ago, Haleth said:

It’s just so… expected. You see the 5 candidates: two women, a black guy, a squirrelly guy, and a cute blonde haired blue eyed guy. Which is the chosen one?  Yawn. 

Yeah.. We're still in a place where casting directors seem to feel comfy putting certain types into roles... That said I  initially applauded the show for giving us a black villian... And one who wasn't just some big physically imposing hulking brute... Tho Perrin while not a vilkian is slightly typecast there.. But we had Valda.. And growing up... Already pretty cognizant of the fact that few ppl in these types ( or any)  of shows looked anything like me or mine and that there were only a few roles they were somehow allowed to get...  Best friend... Sidekick... Noble sacrificing types... If they were cast as villians it was always as brusier types... So valda was like a scummy breath of fresh air... I always figured if they finally feel comfy making us villians.. Maybe they also could make us.. Central heroes... And ppl who used their brains as much as brawn...  But then I noticed Padan Fain and The Barmaid ( both darkfriends.. In what had to be a purely coincidental but face-palmy bit of phrasing.) The fake dragon and Ishmael... And i was like.... Are all the bad guys so far POC... Anywhoo dont mind my odd little rant. 

[Kasienka]

Finished the show yesterday and I'm not particularly impressed. The only time I cared about the characters was when Moraine and Lan were on screen or Rand interacted with Matt. The rest of the cast I coudn't care less, the big romance between Lan and Nynaeve was utterly unconvincing to me and the less said about the love triangle the better. The final was rushed and anticlimatic, Rand confrontation with the big bad is so laughably bad. Generally I feel like the writers were doing a speedrun through the story, there were so many characters and factions, but not enough time spend on them. They should really focus on making the main five interesting and developed characters, especially Rand since he turned out to be the Chosen One.

 

[Danny Franks]

On 1/2/2022 at 3:00 AM, Haleth said:

It’s just so… expected. You see the 5 candidates: two women, a black guy, a squirrelly guy, and a cute blonde haired blue eyed guy. Which is the chosen one?  Yawn. 

Well, the book was written over thirty years ago, when fantasy was pretty much the domain of white males. But still, Rand is one of the few characters in the series whose physical appearance is described in significant detail, and who has actual narrative reasons for being a pale, redheaded guy - he's a secret Aiel.

On 1/2/2022 at 11:34 AM, UnoAgain said:

Yeah.. We're still in a place where casting directors seem to feel comfy putting certain types into roles... That said I  initially applauded the show for giving us a black villian... And one who wasn't just some big physically imposing hulking brute... Tho Perrin while not a vilkian is slightly typecast there.. But we had Valda.. And growing up... Already pretty cognizant of the fact that few ppl in these types ( or any)  of shows looked anything like me or mine and that there were only a few roles they were somehow allowed to get...  Best friend... Sidekick... Noble sacrificing types... If they were cast as villians it was always as brusier types... So valda was like a scummy breath of fresh air... I always figured if they finally feel comfy making us villians.. Maybe they also could make us.. Central heroes... And ppl who used their brains as much as brawn...  But then I noticed Padan Fain and The Barmaid ( both darkfriends.. In what had to be a purely coincidental but face-palmy bit of phrasing.) The fake dragon and Ishmael... And i was like.... Are all the bad guys so far POC... Anywhoo dont mind my odd little rant. 

Liandrin isn't a person of colour and seems like a villain to me. All of Valda's underlings looked like they came to set straight from a Unite the Right rally, just stopping to change out of their khakis and polo shirts.

I think the casting approach to the whole series is going to be a case of, 'who is the best person for the role' regardless of their ethnic background (except for rare cases where there are clear storyline reasons for casting someone with a certain look) - that's how we ended up with Madeleine Madden, Zoe Robins, Daniel Henney and Marcus Rutherford, and a subsection of pissed off fans who think all the characters they like should be white.

[DoctorAtomic]

And Lan being a samurai. 

[staphdude]

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Well, the book was written over thirty years ago, when fantasy was pretty much the domain of white males. But still, Rand is one of the few characters in the series whose physical appearance is described in significant detail, and who has actual narrative reasons for being a pale, redheaded guy - he's a secret Aiel.

This is the fundamental issue with so many comments. This is an established story and yet people want something different. The Wheel of Time plot and characters are WELL established and for them to choose to do it as a live action piece and then change it would make no sense. The series got made off of the popularity and value of the source material.

[silverstream]

On 12/24/2021 at 9:59 PM, Enero said:

It was also interesting to hear that Nynaeve’s ability to track the group earlier in the season was due to Moraine having a tell, and thus is trackable. I would’ve loved to have heard the details of how Nynaeve discovered this tell and what the tell is.

It's simple, really - Moraine grossly overuses Chanel N°5, only Lan is so used to that he didn't notice. Once Nynaeve told him he reset his sense of smell and suddenly her overly floral trail was easy to follow.

[MissLucas]

Well, so far the most interesting thing about Rand seems to be his mother - clearly there was a lot more going on than the lady just being an incredibly well trained fighter. I guess the heron on his sword is significant too. Hero with mysterious ancestry fits yet another trope. I don't mind all the tropes but I wish the writers had been given a bit more time for world building so that we could slowly connect some of the dots. As I mentioned somewhere else those chopped bits of backstory had confused me enough that my brain put the badass fight in the snow into the Witcherverse 🤣

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by MissLucas

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 hours ago, staphdude said:

This is the fundamental issue with so many comments. This is an established story and yet people want something different. The Wheel of Time plot and characters are WELL established and for them to choose to do it as a live action piece and then change it would make no sense. The series got made off of the popularity and value of the source material.

I don't think that many people "want something different" from what is established by the books. I'm not 100 percent sure what you're referring to, though. I assume it's largely along the diversity axis.

I think most of the comments you are presumably referring to have to do with a) people being genre-savvy and knowing or being disappointed that Rand is the one and only Dragon despite having been teased that all five of the main characters could be the Dragon and other possibilities and b) that Rand as portrayed thus far is pretty bland.. Now maybe that is how he is the books and he grows into a more interesting or heroic figure. 

But for now I could take or leave Anakin 2.0.

[staphdude]

47 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't think that many people "want something different" from what is established by the books. I'm not 100 percent sure what you're referring to, though. I assume it's largely along the diversity axis.

I think most of the comments you are presumably referring to have to do with a) people being genre-savvy and knowing or being disappointed that Rand is the one and only Dragon despite having been teased that all five of the main characters could be the Dragon and other possibilities and b) that Rand as portrayed thus far is pretty bland.. Now maybe that is how he is the books and he grows into a more interesting or heroic figure. 

But for now I could take or leave Anakin 2.0.

Actually I think diversity is great given my own background. What I find frustrating is the fact that people find fault with characters and plots that are well established. The idea that the Dragon reborn would be more than one person is rather laughable moreover many people just can’t stomach the idea of Rand being that Dragon. Sure it is a fantasy trope but does that make the story fundamentally bad?

[Chicago Redshirt]

43 minutes ago, staphdude said:

Actually I think diversity is great given my own background. What I find frustrating is the fact that people find fault with characters and plots that are well established. The idea that the Dragon reborn would be more than one person is rather laughable moreover many people just can’t stomach the idea of Rand being that Dragon. Sure it is a fantasy trope but does that make the story fundamentally bad?

I don't know if anyone finds fault with the plot per se, but that it was rushed. 

It's clear to a non-book reader that a lot was rushed to get to this point in 8 episodes, and that as part of the rush, characterization suffered.

Show Rand simply does not have much of a personality beyond being in love with Egwene, a generic nice guy who is protective of his friends, and a little skeptical of Moraine. 

If one could leave knowledge of Rand as a character from the books aside, there's not much in these 8 episodes about him that makes him seem more interesting than the rest of the crew, if anything. And compared to other Chosen Ones in various genre fiction -- Luke Skywalker in the original trilogy, Harry Potter, Frodo or whoever you might name -- there's not all that much charisma to him or build up that this guy will one day be the Man. They've told us that he's special but not really shown it, unlike the beginning of those other sagas.

Being predictable can be bad, or it could be comforting and reliable, depending on execution and other factors. 

A Harry Potter series where the characters think that it's equally likely that Harry, Hermione, Ron, Neville and numerous others could be the Chosen One, but we the readers/audience members all know it's really Harry and in which Harry were played by a ;lackluster character who has pretty much nothing special about him wouldn't be as interesting as the one we have where we are told from the start that Harry has a special destiny, we are shown that he is very good at somethings even at an early age, he is charismatic enough to hold his own (even if someone might prefer Hermione, Ron or the other characters).

[UnoAgain]

18 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Well, the book was written over thirty years ago, when fantasy was pretty much the domain of white males. But still, Rand is one of the few characters in the series whose physical appearance is described in significant detail, and who has actual narrative reasons for being a pale, redheaded guy - he's a secret Aiel.

Liandrin isn't a person of colour and seems like a villain to me. All of Valda's underlings looked like they came to set straight from a Unite the Right rally, just stopping to change out of their khakis and polo shirts.

I think the casting approach to the whole series is going to be a case of, 'who is the best person for the role' regardless of their ethnic background (except for rare cases where there are clear storyline reasons for casting someone with a certain look) - that's how we ended up with Madeleine Madden, Zoe Robins, Daniel Henney and Marcus Rutherford, and a subsection of pissed off fans who think all the characters they like should be 

Liandrin... At least now is more foil than villain.. But I see ur point... Ans aure some of his henchmen look like Hitler's wet dream.. But it's still Valda up front.. And its still rare that we get a villian like him played by a black guy.. Especially in a show not directly aimed at our market... 

[staphdude]

9 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't know if anyone finds fault with the plot per se, but that it was rushed. 

It's clear to a non-book reader that a lot was rushed to get to this point in 8 episodes, and that as part of the rush, characterization suffered.

Show Rand simply does not have much of a personality beyond being in love with Egwene, a generic nice guy who is protective of his friends, and a little skeptical of Moraine. 

If one could leave knowledge of Rand as a character from the books aside, there's not much in these 8 episodes about him that makes him seem more interesting than the rest of the crew, if anything. And compared to other Chosen Ones in various genre fiction -- Luke Skywalker in the original trilogy, Harry Potter, Frodo or whoever you might name -- there's not all that much charisma to him or build up that this guy will one day be the Man. They've told us that he's special but not really shown it, unlike the beginning of those other sagas.

Being predictable can be bad, or it could be comforting and reliable, depending on execution and other factors. 

A Harry Potter series where the characters think that it's equally likely that Harry, Hermione, Ron, Neville and numerous others could be the Chosen One, but we the readers/audience members all know it's really Harry and in which Harry were played by a ;lackluster character who has pretty much nothing special about him wouldn't be as interesting as the one we have where we are told from the start that Harry has a special destiny, we are shown that he is very good at somethings even at an early age, he is charismatic enough to hold his own (even if someone might prefer Hermione, Ron or the other characters).

I agree with you wholeheartedly and perhaps my issue has always been my knowledge of the books. I know the story of Rand al Thor and was (am?) excited to see it brought to life on screen. However, the writers seem to have it in for the HERO of this story. The other prominent characters need and deserve exploration but when setting the stage with so few episodes why give such short shrift to Rand's development? The fault must lie with the writers and showrunner. If you can't bring this story to life for...reasons, maybe build something of your own that fits within your scope and resources to produce.

Edited January 4, 2022 by staphdude

[phoenics]

On 1/4/2022 at 1:15 AM, staphdude said:

Actually I think diversity is great given my own background. What I find frustrating is the fact that people find fault with characters and plots that are well established. The idea that the Dragon reborn would be more than one person is rather laughable moreover many people just can’t stomach the idea of Rand being that Dragon. Sure it is a fantasy trope but does that make the story fundamentally bad?

They aren't well established.  For non-book readers they are just what we've seen this season.  Maybe the writers will delve more deeply into Rand in S2?

Also - I really don't want to know anything more than what we've seen this season.  I don't want to know who Rand is in the books yet.  I don't want to know anything about that.

I get it's hard - but it's frustrating to have book fans telling non-book fans our reading of the characters is wrong because of the book knowledge you have.  I feel those complaints really should stay in the book threads, sorry, because they are in a way spoiling.  Telling us Rand is the protagonist and hero is technically spoiling us - because until the character earns that on the show, he's ... not the hero or protagonist yet in this rendition.

That being said - I think there is room for all of these characters to have their moment in the sun and to get fleshed out deeply.  I don't think a tv show will make it long solely focused on just Rand.  I think the show has set it up that ALL of them are deeply important - even if Rand is the dragon.  I'm here for that story, sorry if others aren't.  And if/when Rand earns that top dog spot, I'll be down for that story too.  For now, I have my faves.

Edited January 8, 2022 by phoenics

[Danny Franks]

4 hours ago, phoenics said:

I think the show has set it up that ALL of them are deeply important - even if Rand is the dragon.  I'm here for that story, sorry if others aren't.  And if/when Rand earns that top dog spot, I'll be down for that story too.  For now, I have my faves.

I think this is why they structured the season as they did - to make it clear that, even though Rand is ultimately revealed as the Dragon Reborn, the rest of the characters aren't going to just be sidekicks or unimportant.

They've shown that each of the kids from the Two Rivers has their own thing, even if we're not clear yet exactly what that thing is - Egwene and Nynaeve seem destined to become Aes Sedai, Perrin has this wolf connection that is yet to be explored and Mat... I don't know what Mat's deal is, but he's clearly got some stuff to go through.

I'll always lament that we didn't get two more episodes, and that the last two episodes we did get were so impacted by Covid restrictions, but I do think this season was a good foundation for what I hope will be a long series.

[Haleth]

Please, just a yes or no since we shouldn't discuss books here, but did the tv season go to the end of the first book?  Is this more or less where the first book ended?  Just curious.

[Danny Franks]

26 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Please, just a yes or no since we shouldn't discuss books here, but did the tv season go to the end of the first book?  Is this more or less where the first book ended?  Just curious.

In case people don't want to know the answer, I'll use spoiler tags.

Spoiler

Yes, the season ended at the same point as the book, give or take a few wrap up scenes.

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Danny Franks

[supposebly]

I'm one of the viewers with no book knowledge and all I can say, the main characters are just very bland. I would have been almost as uninterested in any of the others being the Dragon.

There is nothing interesting about Rand or Egwene. No layers, no bad spots, nothing. Ambituious girl and the guy who pines for ambitious girl. Yawn. Even Rand's "temptation" was not really all that interesting since he's such a good guy.

Perrin has his guilt over his wife's death, Mat has his conflict between having to care for his sisters combined with some shady shenanigans. Their temptations would have been a lot more real.

I find Nynaeve irritating as hell, everything needs to be spelled out for her because she has her preconceived notions of what the world is and is constantly surprised when things aren't as simple as she thinks. Her love story with Lan shows no chemistry and now I have to watch another boring love story. Often the irritating parts of fantasy and sci-fi for me.

The only characters and their relationships I find interesting are Moiraine and Lan, or rather the whole Aes Sedai/warden deal, her relationship with Siuan, and the political shenanigans in the Tower with the reds. And Rand's mother. While utterly unrealistic, such a badass!

The end was just somewhat boring as well. I find it funny that no one actually knows what the Dragon is or does, so that leaves things wide open but also leaves me wondering why I should care about this Dragon. And I'm still mystified why Rand all of a sudden thought he's the one. The show did not sell that well.

It's a very pretty show but I can't say it's very exciting or engaging.

[rmontro]

Just finished watching this.  My main impression is that I was impressed that they were able to give us something that resembled an ending, I wasn't sure what to expect.  I would have guessed we were going to get a cliffhanger type ending instead, which I guess we sort of got.  But I didn't even think they would finish the interaction between the Dark One and Rand.  I don't know the book, but I thought the first season was well done, and left me interested in more.

[Boadicea]

I also posted this in the Media thread: Amazon prime has added an approximately four minute sneak peek scene from season two on episode eight, right after the last scene of the episode.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Boadicea