S03.E08: Chiantishire

[Carolina Girl]

1 hour ago, Lassus said:

Punching above your weight

Tom should know all about punching above his weight.

And Shiv was happy to remind him of it in this episode.  

[Diapason Untuned]

Just now, txhorns79 said:

It's only a "perfect weapon" because Kendall keeps trying to assert his moral superiority over his father.  If Kendall declines to come to terms with his own behavior, it's going to keep getting thrown in his face when he tries to act as though he is above it all.   

Except Logan uses this against him even when he doesn't do that. Last season, Kendall was actually getting a little happy with Naomi and Logan just decided to use it against him because he was pissed about the Pierce deal falling apart.

[Ellaria]

1 hour ago, cardigirl said:

I hope to gosh Gerri sweeps the leg of Shiv and trounces her.   I never disliked a character on this show more, than I have disliked Shiv this season.  "Put in a good word for you with Dad."  My eye!  Of course, Roman knows she didn't put in a good word for him, but I guess this is Shiv fighting all of them for the top spot. 

54 minutes ago, ahpny said:

Indeed, but Shiv is too self-absorbed and arrogant to see this, notwithstanding the much guile she does have. Gerri has mastered managing the Roys for decades. I think she'll be fine. She knows not only where the bodies are buried, but who buried them, why, and when. And undoubtedly, she's got documentation to support all of that.

Agree completely that Gerri can run circles around Shiv because of her knowledge/experience at Waystar. Gerri most certainly does know where the bodies are buried. However, Shiv cannot see that because she can't get past her own sense of entitlement and arrogance. Shiv assumes that she is the smartest person in the room and that could be dangerous for Gerri. Rather than try to find a way to align with Gerri (perhaps against Roman), Shiv wants to one-up her.

I'm not confident that Gerri retains her position of "Interim CEO" for much longer. However, I am pretty confident that alienating her or forcing her out will be a very bad idea that will create problems for Waystar, Logan, etc. Gerri knows how to defend herself against the Roys.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Ellaria Sand

[Carolina Girl]

38 minutes ago, Lassus said:

As one last meta note, I only realized today that Justine Lupe is Willa in this show AND Astrid (converted sis-in-law) in Ms. Maisel!  Holy crap, talk about hitting your stride, career-wise.

Oh wow!  Never realized it.  And God help me, I LOVE Astrid.  She's such a guile-less sweetie pie.  

[Pete Martell]

32 minutes ago, Diapason Untuned said:

I would believe this if she ever actually tried to parent her kids. I'm more of the opinion that she allowed because it would get her semi-permanent access to Logan's money without being married to him. We've seen her use the kids as leverage to get things out of him before.

Whenever I see Caroline with the kids I'm reminded of the scene where Kendall wanted to confide in her and she immediately made it clear she could  not handle the pressure. She can only handle Roman because he is "the fun one" of her  children. I think the divorce aftermath hardened an already burgeoning lack of interest in her kids and as the years have passed and a large part of her income  has been from being their mother, the disdain has only built because they are all deeply screwed up.

[dmc]

9 minutes ago, Diapason Untuned said:

Except Logan uses this against him even when he doesn't do that. Last season, Kendall was actually getting a little happy with Naomi and Logan just decided to use it against him because he was pissed about the Pierce deal falling apart.

Logan thinks any viable weakness is a weapon to be used at will.  The bigger question if you know your parent is like this at one point do you learn to keep weaknesses a secret from him.  My father was like this and I didn’t tell him anything. 
 

[Carolina Girl]

4 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Agree completely that Gerri can run circles around Shiv because of her knowledge/experience at Waystar. Gerri most certainly does know where the bodies are buried. However, Shiv cannot see that because she can't get past her own sense of entitlement and arrogance. Shiv assumes that she is the smartest person in the room and that could be dangerous for Gerri. Rather than try to find a way to align with Gerri (perhaps against Roman), Shiv wants to one-up her.

I'm not confident that Gerri retains her position of "Interim CEO" for much longer. However, I am pretty confident that alienating her or forcing her out will be a very bad idea that will create problems for Waystar, Logan, etc.

Gerri seems to indicate that she knows she's just a placeholder.   I simply assumed that once a permanent CEO was named, she'd re-assume her role as corporate general counsel.   Also, once the "settlement" with the DOJ is signed and the fine paid, unless there is a specific clause barring Logan from corporate office, he'd just assume the mantle again.  

Why Logan does not trust her is beyond me.  She's proven her loyalty over and over again.  Logan is probably annoyed that she was unable to stop the FBI raid and - WISELY - told him he needed to cooperate when they showed up downstairs.   But I think Gerri sees Shiv for who she truly is - the one MOST like her father.   

[cardigirl]

2 minutes ago, Diapason Untuned said:

She doesn't need all that much power, she just needs enough to get by.

We see it in this episode, her fiancee wants to use Logan for his business interests, so she screws over Kendall to get Logan in a good enough mood. When you're as rich and powerful as Logan, even being on his periphery can get you serious gains. Hell, that's Greg's whole character.

I think we see how people are affected by having to deal with Logan. He DOES have all the power, or so it is perceived, as they can't or won't dismiss him.  I think Caroline summed him up pretty well:

Quote

 

"Truth is, I probably should never have had children," Caroline says, going on to add, "I should have had dogs."

"You could have had dogs," Shiv tells her.

"No, not with your father," Caroline counters. "He never saw anything he loved that he didn't want to kick it, just to see if it would still come back."

 

 

[dmc]

6 minutes ago, Carolina Girl said:

Gerri seems to indicate that she knows she's just a placeholder.   I simply assumed that once a permanent CEO was named, she'd re-assume her role as corporate general counsel.   Also, once the "settlement" with the DOJ is signed and the fine paid, unless there is a specific clause barring Logan from corporate office, he'd just assume the mantle again.  

Why Logan does not trust her is beyond me.  She's proven her loyalty over and over again.  Logan is probably annoyed that she was unable to stop the FBI raid and - WISELY - told him he needed to cooperate when they showed up downstairs.   But I think Gerri sees Shiv for who she truly is - the one MOST like her father.   

Going to go with, Logan doesn’t trust anyone completely and views them all as disposable.  Everything is constant changing always, remember?

 

loyalty, position, worth, viability always changing. 
 

Any of them can go from vital to replaceable. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by dmc

[Carolina Girl]

1 minute ago, dmc said:

Going to go with, Logan doesn’t trust anyone completely and views them all as disposable.  Everything is constant changing always remember?

I'll board that train m'self.  I see i pulling into the station.

[Pete Martell]

8 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Right now, I'm guessing Kendall's "death" is going to be a fake-out, but I really do wonder how much longer he's got.  I can see why the show wouldn't want to lose him; especially thanks to Jeremy Strong's revolutionary performance here; but I just can't see his story lasting much longer baring another sudden swerve.  I guess we might find out next week!

Kendall has become such a limited character this season  - a loop of him repeating the same mistakes and having no one, aside from Naomi, who is completely incapable of being what amounts to a caretaker for him. At this point he exists as an object in Logan's way, a reminder of everything  Logan hates about his children and himself, because logically he must  know it makes more sense to go along with his original plans and actually pay Kendall off to go live in some high-priced hovel, like Connor, yet he can't do it. Not being able to toy with his favorite least favorite means he has to face up to just being an old, dying man. 

If Kendall does survive this, then I think Logan is going to dearly regret not honoring Kendall's request. I think Kendall is going to end up (probably through being used or just twists of fate rather than any skill) seriously hurting Logan, more than even just him going to the cops about the car incident, which Logan could get out of with his connections and various people willing to take the fall. 

As much as the show can be about  what self-destructive messes the Roy kids are,  this  episode was a reminder that Logan is still just like them deep down, and I would guess he is going to pay for it.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Pete Martell

[Ellaria]

20 minutes ago, Carolina Girl said:

Gerri seems to indicate that she knows she's just a placeholder.   I simply assumed that once a permanent CEO was named, she'd re-assume her role as corporate general counsel.   Also, once the "settlement" with the DOJ is signed and the fine paid, unless there is a specific clause barring Logan from corporate office, he'd just assume the mantle again.  

Why Logan does not trust her is beyond me.  She's proven her loyalty over and over again.  Logan is probably annoyed that she was unable to stop the FBI raid and - WISELY - told him he needed to cooperate when they showed up downstairs.   But I think Gerri sees Shiv for who she truly is - the one MOST like her father.   

Very true. She is a placeholder. I also assumed that she would be General Counsel again once "someone" becomes permanent CEO. However, until last night, I didn't consider that she might get bounced out of Waystar entirely. Regardless, Gerri is someone to be reckoned with and I'm not sure how many of the Roys realize that.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Ellaria Sand

[BlackberryJam]

Oh, the irony of Logan being disgusted that Gerri, a woman younger than him, may have some sexual interest while he is banging his much younger assistant. Logan, for all his language and assholery, is a total prude.

Edited December 6, 2021 by BlackberryJam
Typo

[Carolina Girl]

15 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Very true. She is a placeholder. I also assumed that she would be General Counsel again, too, once "someone" becomes permanent CEO. However, until last night, I didn't consider that she might get bounced out of Waystar.. Regardless, Gerri is someone to be reckoned with and I'm not sure how many of the Roys realize that.

Of course, even though we've all pointed out that Gerri knows where the bodies are buried, but the malfeasance seems to have all occurred when she was general counsel.  Perhaps someone here IS or knows a GC who can enlighten us as to whether or not anything she knows is protected by the umbrella of attorney-client privilege.   My thought is maybe she can dodge violating privilege by use of the criminal conspiracy exemption.  

[Jordan Baker]

The problem (if you can call it that) with this season is that the acting has been so good that I could see the entire cast being nominated for awards, and they all deserve to win. Given that several will be nominated in the same category, that can't happen.

As others have said, I thought this was Matthew Macfayden's year to win something. His Tom has been amazing, and, in spite of all the lousy things he's done, I can't help rooting for him. (It probably doesn't hurt that "Pride and Prejudice" was on one of the other HBO channels just before this episode of "Succession." P&P is one of those movies I'll always stop and watch, and MM was just great in it.) But he'd likely be nominated against Kieran Culkin, who is also having a terrific year.

In this episode, I was in awe of Brian Cox. His scene with Jeremy Strong was so good that I think I was holding my breath. And once again, kudos to the makeup department. Logan looked hale and hearty, and Kendall looked diminished and gray. These two superior actors will no doubt be nominated in the same category. Who will win?

OK, speaking of holding your breath, I didn't make the connection between Kendall's last scene and Logan's question about how long the waiter went before inhaling water. I hope the posters who speculated about this are correct, because the alternative is not a happy one.

[iMonrey]

Is this the first time we've ever seen Kendall's children? What was Logan referencing when he asked how Kendall's son was doing? Is there something wrong with him?

During the rabbit episode I imagined the children were much younger than that.

[RedDelicious]

5 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Is this the first time we've ever seen Kendall's children? What was Logan referencing when he asked how Kendall's son was doing? Is there something wrong with him?

During the rabbit episode I imagined the children were much younger than that.

We saw them more in Season One. I think Logan is referring to the incident during the Thanksgiving episode where Rava said something about transitions (between social situations) being difficult for Iverson and she was out in the hallway with him helping him with a toy. Logan later backhanded Iverson during the Went to Market game. The kids were also at Shiv's wedding and then there was the theme park birthday party in Season Two. 

[Carolina Girl]

Just now, RedDelicious said:

We saw them more in Season One. I think Logan is referring to the incident during the Thanksgiving episode where Rava said something about transitions (between social situations) being difficult for Iverson and she was out in the hallway with him helping him with a toy. Logan later backhanded Iverson during the Went to Market game. The kids were also at Shiv's wedding and then there was the theme park birthday party in Season Two. 

So it's a boy and a girl, right?  I assume the older blonde woman was the nanny?

I was also curious as to why Kendall has the Marine buzz cut.  

[RedDelicious]

On another note, did anyone else notice Tommy Lascelles (Queen Elizabeth's secretary) from The Crown as Lady Caroline's intended?! I had to look it up because I KNEW I recognized that face, and sure enough!

[Pete Martell]

4 hours ago, Lassus said:

I've heard the complaints about this season being a wheel-spinner, but this is really the first time I felt it in spades.  There was no reason for half the leads to be at the wedding. Greg's interactions were repeat of his old ones, and stupefyingly annoying, both with his female interests and with Shiv/Tom.  ("Punching above your weight" as an outside assessment?  Again?  Still?  I have an over-used metaphor for you: "beating a dead horse".)   Shiv/Tom was literally the same as every other Shiv/Tom, Logan/Kendal was only gripping in the moment where Logan called the son in to poison-test the food but pretty stock otherwise.  (I did like to play that in my head that Logan knew there was no poison, but was still just still fucking with his son.)  Terrible mother with guilt over terrible kids storyline - puts on Nina Garcia hat - we've seen it a million times.  The IS HE OR ISN'T HE? Kendall ending?  GAH.

I agree in part, but I put some of the blame on weaker episodes/scenes earlier this season. I thought the Tom and Shiv scenes in this episode were some of their most important, as a heaping helping of abusive interaction with her mother meant she ripped off the Band-Aids of her worthless marriage  -  baby or not, Tom's illusions were fully shattered and this or next season I feel like we are at a breaking point. 

As for Greg, I fully agree there. Obviously  Tom and Shiv are just screwing with Greg, Shiv because she sees him as shit on her shoe and Tom because he is jealous and resentful that Greg was trying to find happiness without him/while he has no happiness of his own, but the story felt  too slight to care much. The use of the Comfry character also confused me. If the idea is that she was just there to show how Greg only wants what  he can't have, is inept, etc. then  it would have made more sense to me if she had just been in this episode,  rather than popping up through the season (I wonder if the appearances were down to the actress being a popular podcaster so she got a glorified cameo role as a result).  

The show seems to have lost any narrative with Greg this season. If the idea is that he is no better than the Roys, what is left for him? We already have other Roys to fill that role. The bumbling and affectations are also starting to seem like too much of a performance, more at home to a smallish recurring part on a show like The Thick Of It. If this  is supposed to be the part where he does go fully dark, I think it has come too late, and they have not  given him interesting relationships outside of Tom. I feel like he is a character the show had more plans for and something shifted.  So we are at a crossroads. If they want to  pull the trigger on his relationship with Tom becoming more,  I'd be fine with that,  but I can't see the show  taking that risk.  If they want to move him away from Tom, I suppose that could make sense, but  then that means he loses his  one memorable relationship, and it's going to take a lot of sharp, incisive writing to  develop him more in his own right.  

My own opinion would be that  with the immense talent  of so many in this cast, unless they make real improvements with  Greg and also  find a way to keep his relationship with  Tom a focal point, I'd cut his airtime  and just bring him in for certain occasions.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Pete Martell

[RedDelicious]

4 minutes ago, Carolina Girl said:

So it's a boy and a girl, right?  I assume the older blonde woman was the nanny?

I was also curious as to why Kendall has the Marine buzz cut.  

That's right - I also assumed the woman was their nanny, and thank god they travel with one because that was the first thing I thought when all the stuff was going down at Shiv's wedding. I can't remember if Rava was there or not.

[John M]

I think Kendall is dead, I noticed that Strong was conspicuously absent from the press buildup for the new season, I thought it was strange at the time that Even Ruck was getting more attention than Strong in the PR push.

[dmc]

3 minutes ago, John M said:

I think Kendall is dead, I noticed that Strong was conspicuously absent from the press buildup for the new season, I thought it was strange at the time that Even Ruck was getting more attention than Strong in the PR push.

I'm actually hoping for this because I think its a better story.  If Kendall dies, Shiv and Roman will finally have to confront who they are backing.  But I just don't think a lot of shows would take this risk

Edited December 6, 2021 by dmc

[RedDelicious]

I thought it was weird that Cousin Greg was there, and there was no interaction with Lady Caroline where she gleefully called him Greg the Egg. But even weirder than that, why was Comfrey there? Is she Kendall's personal assistant or his PR girl?  I'm guessing both.

An interesting note, we watch with closed captions because there are so many asides and a lot of grumbling and when you watch with captions you get it all. When Comfrey is speaking, the CC spells out her first and last name as Comfrey with an E (and of course now I can't remember what CC says her last name is). But when her name comes up in dialog, it's spelled without the E.  I'll try to get a rewatch and report back.

[Francie]

Kendall's not dead. The showrunners are playing Lucy with the football again. Kudos for the observation that Kendall was seeing how long he could hold his breath. 

My other random thoughts of the episode:

1) I hope the writers at least paused and had some heartburn when having Roman write Gerri's name in the text. Who does that? They had a text string going. I hate cheap, convenient plot devices. He at least should've written "Ger-Bear," and then get Logan's reaction when he's told or figures out Roman means Gerri. 

2) Both Kendall and Roman had opportunities for good comebacks with Logan. Kendall could've stopped Logan shot with a cut about the waiter wouldn't have been in the parking lot in the first place if Logan hadn't gotten flustered and lost on him. Roman could've, and ordinarily would've, come back with a far better retort as to why he sent a dick pic to Gerri. Even, "Jesus, it was just a joke, lighten up" would've been better. Roman could've easily adopted a 'I didn't do it because I think she's attractive - she probably hasn't seen a young dick in 40 years and you know how fun it is to be gross to women and make them uncomfortable' attitude, and given who Logan is and who he hung around with for decades, he'd get that. But I don't think of either Kendall's or Roman's ability to defend themselves or mount a counterattack as the writer's fault. Those are the characters who are unable to process when on the receiving end of their father's attack. They falter. 

3) Did anyone else get the vibe that the show was hinting that Shiv was pregnant at the beginning of the episode? Yes, she was playing hooky from the meeting, but she also looked and acted ill. Then she refused the first glass of alcohol. I wonder if the show was going for a fake out -- have the audience think it was going for surprise reveal that she was pregnant, and then pull the rug out. 

4) That freezing embryo talk is the least romantic "should we have a baby" conversation I've ever witnessed. Run, Tom, run. Or maybe I should go back and watch an episode where I have no sympathy for Tom, so that I can feel less sad for him. Tom keeping Logan's "I'll remember" arm squeeze under wraps from Shiv, I bet. Given how awful the kids are, he's looking more and more viable as a candidate. 

5) Caroline exists so that we can understand that there's a worst parent in the world other than Logan? That "I should have had dogs" line is the coldest line, ever. That was not self-reflection. She intended it as an insult -- "I would have preferred a dog to a daughter" -- and it hit its mark. 

6) Logan will be tempted to remove Gerri because he can't get rid of Roman. But Gerri's the one with the inside track to the DOJ. And she's the most competent of the bunch. 

7) Greg with the watch. And already trying to trade up for the Countess. I know many who watch the show are supposed to, and to, idetnify with Greg as the outsider looking in. But, to me, he's not anyone I can relate to. He's an opportunistic schmuck who's trying to coast on his white male connected privilege. Though I agree that it's puzzling the Roys think Comfrey is out of his league. She's just a pr staffer. No wealth or family connections of her own. It's not like she's chasing away throngs of gorgeous, rich suitors. I guess I have to go with that the family likes to kick Greg so much they can't see him as a moderately good looking human being. 

All in all, this episode felt a bit forced to me. A bit square peg in a round hole, where the writers were pushing through ideas that didn't jive with what's on screen. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Francie
because uncomfortable and comfortable are two different things

[Evie]

Greg had no reason to be there, but really neither Gerri or even Connor and Willa, but I just handwaved that Caroline invited the Roy's plus some important peripheral players and Greg made the cut because he's currently in Logan's good graces. 

I've enjoyed Greg's scenes this season, but I don't know if they have an actual plan for him. Sometimes they show him as being corrupted by the Roy's lifestyle, but they also show that he's actually capable of normal human emotions. I know there was all the talk about Greg punching above his weight in this episode, but I did appreciate that he had soured some on Comfry because she didn't seem to have any depth. That's something the Roy's would never care about, and I think a nice contrast to Tom who is married to someone who doesn't love him. I can't see current Greg marrying someone who doesn't love him, even if she is rich and powerful. 

[Lassus]

2 minutes ago, Francie said:

6) Logan will be tempted to remove Gerri because he can't get rid of Roman. But Gerri's the one with the inside track to the DOJ. And she's the most competent of the bunch. 

Yes.  Logan would know this, call both of them in and say "This stops now, or you're each going to windowless offices on two different continents. You think I won't?"

[BlackberryJam]

My thought was that these pre-wedding events can include entourage, so that’s how we got Greg and Comfry and Gerri. 

Caroline may also be tied to Logan financially because of how the divorce is drafted and she doesn’t necessarily want to piss him off, so he gets to bring all of his people.

I may be the only person not at all bothered by the Shiv/Tom embryo discussion because that kind of stuff does have to be hashed out with embryos. It can’t be left to “oh, we’ll fight it out when it comes up.” The storage facility contracts nail every bit of that down now, what happens if there’s a divorce, if one person dies, if both die, if one is incapacitated, etc. It’s important. And standard in 2021.

I was much more bothered by the “insults a foreplay” scenes. 

I don’t give a flip about Greg and I’m happy to have him as periodic comedy.

[Lassus]

17 minutes ago, Evie said:

but I did appreciate that he had soured some on Comfry because she didn't seem to have any depth.

Sorta, but they never showed this, so to me it just seemed like Greg being a continued clueless dope. 

And honestly, he hasn't been shown as appreciably better than the super-rich completely fucked-up Roy family, just some kind of goofy yes-man.

Everyone else loves Greg, but I honestly think he's a total cipher character with no growth or evolution at all.  From his background, he could have been a real outsider perspective of normalcy within this otherworldly universe of wealth and instead we get this guileless, repetitive joke.  It's a real wasted opportunity in my opinion.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Lassus

[aghst]

BTW he was trying to impress the Contessa with his broken, overpriced watch.

She probably spends more in a month on clothes than what Greg paid for that watch.

 

 

[tennisgurl]

I assumed that Roman's downfall would be his deal falling through, not a dickpic, but that does actually seem quite on brand. Like all the Roy offspring, Roman is his own worst enemy. Even when he is succeeding in business he manages to screw up just due to his own weirdness and lack of tact. I cant imagine that Logan will actually fire Gerri over this, even now that he isn't running on full capacity he will know that Gerri is one of the most competent employees that he has. 

They actually had me feeling bad for Shiv when Caroline said that she never should have had children, which, even if it might be true is a fucked up thing to say to your actual child, then we get Shiv telling Tom how much she doesn't really love him, that was just painful to witness. There were a lot of really powerhouse scenes in this episode, but Tom and Shiv's bedroom talk was seriously on fire. Tom is trying to pretend that this was all just spicy dirty talk, but he has to know that she totally meant every word. 

I thought that the scenes between Logan/Kendall and Shiv/Caroline were interesting, both had kids trying to call their parents out on their shitty parenting only for the parent to tell their kid that their issues are just as much their fault as their parents and they really have no room to talk when it comes to being a bad person. I do think that Caroline was at least trying to apologize, albeit in a thoughtless rather cruel way, for being a mostly absent parent when she said that she was never meant to have kids. She was at least admitting that she wasn't a good mother. 

I don't think that the show will actually kill Kendall, but we do need something big to happen with him during the season finale.

Edited December 6, 2021 by tennisgurl

[John M]

Serious Question: What are the odds that is actually Kieran Culkin's dick? I'm guessing non-zero.

[sistermagpie]

14 hours ago, dmc said:

Also Shiv’s best play is sexual harassment in a place notorious for sexual harassment. Shiv really doesn’t know the game here.  This is a place that is currently about to pay off the DOJ with settlement.  Kendall is awol. Logan has one son and she thinks sexual harassment is going to cut it.  Shiv is in a chess game and she just slapped down a checker on the board. I’m not even sure it’s a checker it may be the shoe in Monopoly.  

 

 

2 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Agree completely that Gerri can run circles around Shiv because of her knowledge/experience at Waystar. Gerri most certainly does know where the bodies are buried. However, Shiv cannot see that because she can't get past her own sense of entitlement and arrogance. Shiv assumes that she is the smartest person in the room and that could be dangerous for Gerri. Rather than try to find a way to align with Gerri (perhaps against Roman), Shiv wants to one-up her.

 

I disagree with this idea that Shiv was being stupid with Gerri. Seemed to me that her move was a perfectly good one--one that Gerri took seriously. Shiv wasn't thinking that the company cared about sexual harassment, she was leveraging Gerri and Roman's weird connection against both of them by suggesting they could become a mess that would be irritating to Logan. When Logan thought the dick pick was just "Roman being Roman" it was fine, but finding out about Roman's weirdo sex preferences with people he deems unacceptable (a woman who is far enough past 30 to be "a million years old) put it in the context of Roman being an embarrassment because he's weak. And then she brought Gerri  might have to take a public stand one way or another--either suggest that she encouraged him or declare sexual harassment. Iow, this would maybe not be something Gerri could continue to deal with privately the way she has been--saying no, but not considering it harassment. Shiv shook things up a little.

 

12 hours ago, Hera said:

Speaking of Caroline—just wow. I didn't remember her seeming so awful in the episode where Shiv and Tom got married. Aloof and maybe clueless, but they really made the most of her in this one. On what planet was that idea of having Kendall and Logan divide the wedding events reasonable? And how about her defence of her parenting record by telling Shiv she wasn't a very good daughter at 13, as well as that bizarre attitide she has towards her fiancé?

It's impressive how amazingly toxic their mother always is when given just a few minutes of screen time. We saw her absolutely repulsed by the idea that Kendall might come to her with a problem before. Now she was basically attacking her daughter as a child. Interesting how Shiv said she was 10 and her mother corrected her that she was 13. I don't think Shiv would be lying there. Her parents may have been separated for a few years--Shiv wouldn't just randomly make up a year when her parents divorced. Caroline was basically suggesting that at 13 Shiv should already have been treated as a rival adult woman who was only Caroline's daughter in the sense that she somehow owed Caroline loyalty and proved herself a bitch by staying with Logan...even though Caroline should never have had children. Not her daughter in the sense that Caroline and Logan's behavior had limited her choices and formed who she was--and entitled to Caroline's protection and understanding.

It makes a bizarre sense that Shiv would respond to this by choosing to 1) have children and 2) go back for more kicks from Logan.

12 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I think Kendall had that coming.  You can't participate in the cover up of a death resulting from your actions, then turn around and act superior to the person who you turned to for help with the cover up.  Kendall might like to imagine he's better than Logan, but the truth is Kendall is just as self-serving.     

Yup. Kendall and Shiv both seem to think they can stop being hurt by Logan--become his equal or his better--by convincing themselves they're "better" than the others or than him in some way. But the only way to take power from him is for them to actually see themselves clearly and accept who they really are. That scene with Kendall was clearer than it's ever been. Here he is, pathetically telling himself he's better than Logan because he decided to go public with a bunch of crimes he didn't commit *rather than go to jail for them* as if this makes him a good person. Like anybody buys him pretending to care about any of these victims. Or that this is some big whistleblower moment. It was satisfying when Logan responded to Kendall's critique of the company's terrible activities with, "Just noticed that, did you?" Anyone can see Kendall doesn't really feel most of this stuff is wrong or feel compelled to correct wrongness not personal to him.

9 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Greg is so going to just end up ruining any potential relationship he might have with Comfy, due to all the needling he is getting about her being "out of his league."

So funny when Greg wondered if she'd stick around when she knew "the real him" as if he had some hidden...anything...that she hadn't seen. Because it didn't seem like he meant something like being a coward? Or that he, in fact, was so shallow that he'd be willing to try to climb a "date ladder" that only referred to women being hot? It's not like he's some wealthy titan of business and underneath he's a scared child. He's a slacker, which is fine, but probably doesn't give him enough ambition to climb many ladders, including date ones.

I will note that the time Tom and Shiv seemed happiest with each other was when they were both insulting Greg together. They have that in common (insulting people, not just Greg).

 

3 hours ago, Lassus said:

I've heard the complaints about this season being a wheel-spinner, but this is really the first time I felt it in spades.  There was no reason for half the leads to be at the wedding. Greg's interactions were repeat of his old ones, and stupefyingly annoying, both with his female interests and with Shiv/Tom.  ("Punching above your weight" as an outside assessment?  Again?  Still?  I have an over-used metaphor for you: "beating a dead horse".)   Shiv/Tom was literally the same as every other Shiv/Tom, Logan/Kendal was only gripping in the moment where Logan called the son in to poison-test the food but pretty stock otherwise.  (I did like to play that in my head that Logan knew there was no poison, but was still just still fucking with his son.)  Terrible mother with guilt over terrible kids storyline - puts on Nina Garcia hat - we've seen it a million times.  The IS HE OR ISN'T HE? Kendall ending?  GAH.

When we FINALLY got to Logan realizing that he needed to do a deal that was nice to see the growth and some non-family things going on, then immediately it was like a tire having the air let out out of it due to DICK PICS OMG and come on, Roman REALLY makes that error to send to his dad and not Gerri?  Logan doesn't know this about his son generally or specifically?  Give me a break. 

I think this problem has been baked into the show from the moment they decided (and I think this was a change from their original conception but correct me if I'm wrong) to keep Logan alive. At that point it was no longer about 4 siblings fighting each other, but the powerful old man manipulating the people in his life that are most easily manipulated by him. They're always spending half their energy wanting him to be all-powerful. They will always be children to his father.

It makes me think of that moment when Tom tells Kendall he's seen him fucked over and over and he's never seen Logan get fucked once. But Tom's wrong. Logan has been fucked--just not by anybody in the family. Plenty of the people in the outside world see Logan as an old man passed his prime. They aren't afraid of him. Even poor people have more power in some ways. He can hurt them financially, but they genuinely hate him. He could insult them to his heart's content and they wouldn't be hurt, they hold him in such contempt. If he died they either wouldn't care or would be happy. Tom wasn't seeing past the family bubble when he sees Logan as always winning.

And re: Logan not knowing about Geri and Roman? 100% believable he didn't know. Again, Logan's not actually this all-powerful mastermind. He's an old man with his own limited perspective and prejudices. He expects as a default that his sons are straight men. All he really asks is that they not be gay (not be f*gs in his mind). Neither has given him reason to worry about that--and otherwise he doesn't obsess over their sex lives. 

Sure, he's been able to manipulate Kendall's romantic life to the point where it seems like he's got deep knowledge of these things, but that's just because Kendall is in this area, like all areas, completely basic. He's never brought home a girl who wasn't just what you'd expect. Maybe inappropriate in that Logan would dismiss her as a bimbo, but that's what straight guys do. Of course it's never occurred to him to doubt that Roman is actually having sex with the pretty girls he goes with. Certainly it would never enter his mind that he would be attracted to Gerri.  It would be like being attracted to the blender.

Until coming here, btw, it never occurred to me that Kendall was dead. I thought he just fell asleep on the raft with no reason to be dead, but with an intentional callback to the dead waiter drowning.

3 minutes ago, John M said:

Serious Question: What are the odds that is actually Kieran Culkin's dick? I'm guessing non-zero.

Zero.

[dmc]

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

I disagree with this idea that Shiv was being stupid with Gerri. Seemed to me that her move was a perfectly good one--one that Gerri took seriously. Shiv wasn't thinking that the company cared about sexual harassment, she was leveraging Gerri and Roman's weird connection against both of them by suggesting they could become a mess that would be irritating to Logan. When Logan thought the dick pick was just "Roman being Roman" it was fine, but finding out about Roman's weirdo sex preferences with people he deems unacceptable (a woman who is far enough past 30 to be "a million years old) put it in the context of Roman being an embarrassment because he's weak. And then she brought Gerri  might have to take a public stand one way or another--either suggest that she encouraged him or declare sexual harassment. Iow, this would maybe not be something Gerri could continue to deal with privately the way she has been--saying no, but not considering it harassment. Shiv shook things up a little.

 

It's impressive how amazingly toxic their mother always is when given just a few minutes of screen time. We saw her absolutely repulsed by the idea that Kendall might come to her with a problem before. Now she was basically attacking her daughter as a child. Interesting how Shiv said she was 10 and her mother corrected her that she was 13. I don't think Shiv would be lying there. Her parents may have been separated for a few years--Shiv wouldn't just randomly make up a year when her parents divorced. Caroline was basically suggesting that at 13 Shiv should already have been treated as a rival adult woman who was only Caroline's daughter in the sense that she somehow owed Caroline loyalty and proved herself a bitch by staying with Logan...even though Caroline should never have had children. Not her daughter in the sense that Caroline and Logan's behavior had limited her choices and formed who she was--and entitled to Caroline's protection and understanding.

It makes a bizarre sense that Shiv would respond to this by choosing to 1) have children and 2) go back for more kicks from Logan.

Yup. Kendall and Shiv both seem to think they can stop being hurt by Logan--become his equal or his better--by convincing themselves they're "better" than the others or than him in some way. But the only way to take power from him is for them to actually see themselves clearly and accept who they really are. That scene with Kendall was clearer than it's ever been. Here he is, pathetically telling himself he's better than Logan because he decided to go public with a bunch of crimes he didn't commit *rather than go to jail for them* as if this makes him a good person. Like anybody buys him pretending to care about any of these victims. Or that this is some big whistleblower moment. It was satisfying when Logan responded to Kendall's critique of the company's terrible activities with, "Just noticed that, did you?" Anyone can see Kendall doesn't really feel most of this stuff is wrong or feel compelled to correct wrongness not personal to him.

So funny when Greg wondered if she'd stick around when she knew "the real him" as if he had some hidden...anything...that she hadn't seen. Because it didn't seem like he meant something like being a coward? Or that he, in fact, was so shallow that he'd be willing to try to climb a "date ladder" that only referred to women being hot? It's not like he's some wealthy titan of business and underneath he's a scared child. He's a slacker, which is fine, but probably doesn't give him enough ambition to climb many ladders, including date ones.

I will note that the time Tom and Shiv seemed happiest with each other was when they were both insulting Greg together. They have that in common (insulting people, not just Greg).

 

I think this problem has been baked into the show from the moment they decided (and I think this was a change from their original conception but correct me if I'm wrong) to keep Logan alive. At that point it was no longer about 4 siblings fighting each other, but the powerful old man manipulating the people in his life that are most easily manipulated by him. They're always spending half their energy wanting him to be all-powerful. They will always be children to his father.

It makes me think of that moment when Tom tells Kendall he's seen him fucked over and over and he's never seen Logan get fucked once. But Tom's wrong. Logan has been fucked--just not by anybody in the family. Plenty of the people in the outside world see Logan as an old man passed his prime. They aren't afraid of him. Even poor people have more power in some ways. He can hurt them financially, but they genuinely hate him. He could insult them to his heart's content and they wouldn't be hurt, they hold him in such contempt. If he died they either wouldn't care or would be happy. Tom wasn't seeing past the family bubble when he sees Logan as always winning.

And re: Logan not knowing about Geri and Roman? 100% believable he didn't know. Again, Logan's not actually this all-powerful mastermind. He's an old man with his own limited perspective and prejudices. He expects as a default that his sons are straight men. All he really asks is that they not be gay (not be f*gs in his mind). Neither has given him reason to worry about that--and otherwise he doesn't obsess over their sex lives. 

Sure, he's been able to manipulate Kendall's romantic life to the point where it seems like he's got deep knowledge of these things, but that's just because Kendall is in this area, like all areas, completely basic. He's never brought home a girl who wasn't just what you'd expect. Maybe inappropriate in that Logan would dismiss her as a bimbo, but that's what straight guys do. Of course it's never occurred to him to doubt that Roman is actually having sex with the pretty girls he goes with. Certainly it would never enter his mind that he would be attracted to Gerri.  It would be like being attracted to the blender.

Until coming here, btw, it never occurred to me that Kendall was dead. I thought he just fell asleep on the raft with no reason to be dead, but with an intentional callback to the dead waiter drowning.

Zero.

I don’t think it’s going be a win for her at all.

Money will out.

Roman isn’t going anywhere and if he gets this deal it’s not going matter what he sent to Geri.

If he doesn’t get the deal, I’m still not sure it’s going matter either. Maybe his chances of being CEO will be lowered but it will be for losing this deal not what he sent to Geri.

If it comes down to Roman or Geri, Geri will be the disposable person.

But Geri knows the game already so she won’t go along with anything Shiv has lined up.

It shows consistently that she doesn’t have any idea of the culture there or how it works. That’s basically what it’s been showing about her all season. She thinks it’s a different company than it actually is.

This is sexism in practice. Women cannot thrive in it as long as there is a man who is even slightly competent.

It’s why it’s not good to support sexist institutions and hope to benefit

Despite all her efforts, Logan was willing to jump on the Roman train when he showed basic competency.

 

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, dmc said:

I don’t think it’s going be a win for her at all.

Money will out.

Roman isn’t going anywhere and if he gets this deal it’s not going matter what he sent to Geri.

If he doesn’t get the deal, I’m still not sure it’s going matter either. Maybe his chances of being CEO will be lowered but it will be for losing this deal not what he sent to Geri.

If it comes down to Roman or Geri, Geri will be the disposable person.

But Geri knows the game already so she won’t go along with anything Shiv has lined up.

It shows consistently that she doesn’t have any idea of the culture there or how it works. That’s basically what it’s been showing about her all season. She thinks it’s a different company than it actually is.

This is sexism in practice. Women cannot thrive in it as long as there is a man who is even slightly competent.

It’s why it’s not good to support sexist institutions and hope to benefit

Despite all her efforts, Logan was willing to jump on the Roman train when he showed basic competency.

 

I'm not saying it will be a big win for her, I'm just saying it wasn't, imo, some dumb move showing that Shiv is once again the dumbest one. Roman's not going anywhere, but we already saw that the dick pick was a problem. And it's going to continue to be, whether or not Roman makes the deal. The idea that anybody is going to secure their place in Logan's affections through anything is just as illusion.

Shiv wasn't speaking to the culture of the company there, she was speaking to the family culture--which is all about Logan, showing a weakness and repulsive, embarrassing perversion in Roman that would taint Gerri as well in Logan's eyes. Where the company culture does come in is that they've just come through a whole ordeal regarding Mo, and as the acting CEO Gerri is not going to want to be connected to anything regarding sexual harassment. Shiv just gave her a heads up that this might happen.

It's not some big, brilliant winning move, but I don't think it was played like it was supposed to be that. It played to me like Shiv doing exactly what she said she was going to do--start punching. None of these people are invulnerable just because they're smart. 

 

[Lassus]

13 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I disagree with this idea that Shiv was being stupid with Gerri. Seemed to me that her move was a perfectly good one--one that Gerri took seriously.

I don't think the move was stupid, and I agree that Gerri took it seriously. 

However, Shiv's manner and tone was forward and threatening, and I think that making Gerri think she's an enemy - or rather letting her know that she WAS an enemy - could end up to be stupid.

[dmc]

10 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I'm not saying it will be a big win for her, I'm just saying it wasn't, imo, some dumb move showing that Shiv is once again the dumbest one. Roman's not going anywhere, but we already saw that the dick pick was a problem. And it's going to continue to be, whether or not Roman makes the deal. The idea that anybody is going to secure their place in Logan's affections through anything is just as illusion.

Shiv wasn't speaking to the culture of the company there, she was speaking to the family culture--which is all about Logan, showing a weakness and repulsive, embarrassing perversion in Roman that would taint Gerri as well in Logan's eyes. Where the company culture does come in is that they've just come through a whole ordeal regarding Mo, and as the acting CEO Gerri is not going to want to be connected to anything regarding sexual harassment. Shiv just gave her a heads up that this might happen.

It's not some big, brilliant winning move, but I don't think it was played like it was supposed to be that. It played to me like Shiv doing exactly what she said she was going to do--start punching. None of these people are invulnerable just because they're smart. 

 

But she said herself...you should know by now we don't get embarassed.  If this falls on anyone, it will be Gerri and that may indirectly get at Roman.  But I felt like she acted this was some power move and maybe it would be somewhere else...but here...I don't think so.  I feel like it will blow over especially if the deal comes through.

 

And I think Gerri had her number.  Gerri is corporate lawyer.  Shiv is not intimidating.  It read to me as desparate and obvious. 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by dmc

[Melina22]

2 hours ago, RedDelicious said:

On another note, did anyone else notice Tommy Lascelles (Queen Elizabeth's secretary

Thank you!! It was driving me crazy. 

[dmc]

8 minutes ago, Lassus said:

I don't think the move was stupid, and I agree that Gerri took it seriously. 

However, Shiv's manner and tone was forward and threatening, and I think that making Gerri think she's an enemy - or rather letting her know that she WAS an enemy - could end up to be stupid.

It was definitely threatening but I don't think she was threatened.  

[Hera]

11 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

After all is said and done, Kendall is finally willing to throw in the towel and even though he is completely full of shit about his claims that he's "a good guy", he at least seems to realize the path he is going down and that the best for him; hell, everyone; would be for him to stay far away from everyone else as possible.  So, he's finally willing to cash out.  But it looks like that will not come to fruition, because despite his claims that he will "think about it", it seems clear that Logan has no intention of just letting Kendall take his ball and go home.

I always figured the birthday offer was a bluff on Logan's part. And Kendall saying that he will take the money (and a "chunky asset", which wasn't part of Logan's initial offer, and therefore needed to be negotiated in person) is Kendall calling that bluff, while also bluffing about what he's willing to do. Kendall's counteroffer included him leaving the board, which means the non-family members of the board would outnumber the Roys. Logan would be dead set against that, if nothing else. But really, Logan doesn't want any of his kids to be totally outside his sphere of influence. He basically said so. And I don't believe Kendall actually wants to be a disinherited member of the family. He wouldn't have the same kind of access to powerful people that he currently enjoys even when he's on the outs with his father. He'd be Connor, but with even less cachet.

I also love that for the second episode in a row, Kendall tried to set terms (no phones or coats at his birthday, no other people at his dinner with his dad) and the family just blithely ignored them.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, dmc said:

But she said herself...you should know by now we don't get embarassed.  If this falls on anyone, it will be Gerri and that may indirectly get at Roman.  But I felt like she acted this was some power move and maybe it would be somewhere else...but here...I don't think so.  I feel like it will blow over especially if the deal comes through

 

 

Well, yeah, but that was Shiv speaking about something that didn't embarrass them, looking like evil people iirc. The word used in this ep was disgust, and Logan felt that. This was also an ep where Logan was freaking out at the idea that somebody was laughing at him. Logan doesn't feel shame, but can not handle being laughed at. He slapped a child for not pretending he hadn't lost a word game. 

Of course, even if this went public Logan would defend Roman 100% and never show embarrassment at all. But he started the meeting wish Shiv with a hopeful "Roman being Roman?" and ended it with him scolding Roman.

It didn't seem like a power move, exactly to me, on Shiv's part. More like the move of somebody who didn't have power so was using what they could to cause trouble, which was how I thought Gerri took it. She wasn't afraid, but saw that she was going to have to think about it in this context. The Roman/Gerri alliance was something they both liked and was private.

 

[dmc]

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Well, yeah, but that was Shiv speaking about something that didn't embarrass them, looking like evil people iirc. The word used in this ep was disgust, and Logan felt that. This was also an ep where Logan was freaking out at the idea that somebody was laughing at him. Logan doesn't feel shame, but can not handle being laughed at. He slapped a child for not pretending he hadn't lost a word game. 

Of course, even if this went public Logan would defend Roman 100% and never show embarrassment at all. But he started the meeting wish Shiv with a hopeful "Roman being Roman?" and ended it with him scolding Roman.

It didn't seem like a power move, exactly to me, on Shiv's part. More like the move of somebody who didn't have power so was using what they could to cause trouble, which was how I thought Gerri took it. She wasn't afraid, but saw that she was going to have to think about it in this context. The Roman/Gerri alliance was something they both liked and was private.

 

Agree on the trouble part.  Do we think it will advance her position?  I kind of don't think so.  

Right now the biggest contact on the deal is someone I think will work better with Roman.

 

I am extremely interested in seeing where Shiv and Kendall go at the end of the season.  I feel both are written into a corner so to speak.

Kendall cannot have another Kendall/Logan battle.

and Shiv even with the Roman snafu seems isolated from the company.  Both the candidate and this new deal seem just so far removed from her

[BC4ME]

38 minutes ago, John M said:

Serious Question: What are the odds that is actually Kieran Culkin's dick? I'm guessing non-zero.

Me too. It's very much like something the actor would do. I immediately thought this at the time I saw it.

FWIW, it's probably impossible to die the way Kendall appears to be trying to. After a certain point, one's body kicks into survival mode -- as in a non thinking part of the brain will start fighting not to drown and try to save oneself. Since he's perfectly capable of not drowning if he simply lifts his head, he will eventually do that no matter his intensions. That's why people tie heavy objects to their feet to keep this from happening, once this survival instinct kicks in. 

[Lassus]

2 minutes ago, dmc said:

I feel both are written into a corner so to speak.

I think it's going to be a lack of resolution, honestly.  There's going to be some kind of BOOM in the finale (Kendall or no) at the end of the season that will put this on hold.

I mean, if they play a GoT and off Cox, that would be about the bravest thing imaginable.  

[dmc]

1 minute ago, Lassus said:

I think it's going to be a lack of resolution, honestly.  There's going to be some kind of BOOM in the finale (Kendall or no) at the end of the season that will put this on hold.

I mean, if they play a GoT and off Cox, that would be about the bravest thing imaginable.  

agreed something major has to happen to change the tragectory of the show.

and agree it won't be wrapped up but I feel something has to happen to give both these characters another story.

I don't see a real situation currently where Shiv is CEO there and I don't see Kendall ever coming back there either.

And they can't keep doing the thing where they all show up one place coincidentally and snipe at each other

[aghst]

Among the families on which the Roys are modeled are the Murdochs.  One of the Murdoch sons did leave the company with people speculating that he didn't like the political role their media properties played in several countries.

I think Kendall and Shiv really are interested in changing that culture though it's easier to talk of change when you're not sitting on that chair.

But Waystar has dwindling assets so maybe it's not that big of a loss.  IRL, Fox News is highly profitable, as are the rest of News Corp but Logan said another 4 years of cord-cutting and they'd be in real trouble.

Logan said he's a revolutionary for finding ways to monetize political polarization.  But in the family, it appears only Roman and maybe Connor are on that train.

Remember, the season 1 political discussions in the family, with Marcia confronting Shiv for helping a political figure who wanted to hurt the family's interests.  They wore her down and eventually she quit her career abruptly, just as she may have risen to some heights in politics if Not Bernie Sanders won the presidency.

Shiv quitting doesn't mean that she was necessarily abandoning the politics she espoused so much as she's driven more by familial politics, daddy's approval.

[Blakeston]

14 hours ago, aghst said:

Logan is desperate for the deal.  He just wants to know if Lukas is a serious guy.  Did he use "sicko" the same word he put to Roman?

Of course they're going to have a big extravagant Tuscan wedding.  These big gatherings are Succession's special sauce, when the excellent ensemble cast all get their chances to solo.  Reality shows with big casts also have big parties, in hopes that people get drunk and have fights or at least arguments.  Succession is way more deft in handing the multiple convos which happen at these

Connor is worried about a reporter digging into Willa's past, how it might hurt his candidacy.  So he decides to propose to her?  How would that fix the potential optics problem with her past?  As for her, why is she thinking on it?  She's been with him for 3 years (or maybe in the show timeline, it's only been a year or so since the family was opening mocking him about her being a call girl in season 1).  She may still be looking for love elsewhere but she also seem to be quite cozy with the lifestyle that Connor has given her -- is she still going out on her own to get Starbucks?  She's not getting any younger so does she think she can bag another guy worth at least 9-figures?

I think Willa desperately wants to go back to the arrangement she had with Connor in the past, where he paid for her to live in a swank home, and she only had to see him every so often.

That window of opportunity may be over. She's smart to hold off on giving him an answer until she's back in the US.

[poeticlicensed]

When Logan left Kendall at the table and he was just sitting there all alone, it was like a scene out of the Godfather 2 when Michael finally has it all  and has nothing. I predict the series will end with Kendall ascending to the throne of Waystar Royco, but is an empty, broken bitter man with no one in his life, like Michael. But he wins. For whatever that's worth. I have always felt that this show is the Logan Kendall story and it will lead to Kendall learning to be a bigger SOB than Logan and taking over. 

As much as I despise Logan, I was with him on the dick pic. Its disgusting. 

Shiv and her mom was brutal. I cannot imagine having that convo with my mother or my daughter. Tom needs to detach emotionally from Shiv. He needs to secure what he can and wait for the eventual end of their relationship. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by poeticlicensed

[dmc]

8 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I think Willa desperately wants to go back to the arrangement she had with Connor in the past, where he paid for her to live in a swank home, and she only had to see him every so often.

That window of opportunity may be over. She's smart to hold off on giving him an answer until she's back in the US.

I think so too.  Connor is basically decent though and he's nice to her.  I never know if we are supposed to feel sorry for her or what.  It seems like she made this business deal and all and all it's not a bad deal.  

I still remember the scene at Thanksgiving where Tom is so nasty to her. 

I swear any time I feel sorry for a character on this show, I flashback to them being horrible.  

[BrownBear2012]

13 hours ago, Adgirl said:

I think it's very similar to the way Shiv feels about Tom. She likes that he's "beneath her" so he'll always be accommodating and so what if it's just so he can have proximity to her connections. Why do parents tell their children they shouldn't have been parents? Its such a completely shitty, manipulative thing to do.

I had to pause when Roman sent the pic. 

 

I can't unsee that pic😱