S01.E01: Never Meet Your Heroes

[tv echo]

16 minutes ago, bethy said:

I really enjoyed it. I love the dad-ness of Hawkey with his kids. And seeing that come out some, too, with Kate. I wondered if this was the first Christmas since the blip. I know someone said this is set in 2025 - when did everyone get back from the blip? I'm horrible with the timing of the MCU. 

Director and EP Rhys Thomas said (in this GamesRadar interview) that Hawkeye takes place "two years after the events of Endgame."

ETA: Marvel's recap of this episode:
‘Hawkeye’: Episode 1 Rundown, Bro
BY RACHEL PAIGE   November 24, 2021
https://www.marvel.com/articles/tv-shows/hawkeye-episode-1-recap

Edited November 25, 2021 by tv echo

[moonshine71]

17 hours ago, Dani said:

 

The opening shots was of medals and trophies that she had already won. So she was involved with martial arts, fencing and archery before 2012. Endgame was set in 2023. Based on @AimingforYoko’s post this in Christmas 2025 making it a little over two years after Endgame. Putting it after all the other movies and tv shows by a good bit. 

It really was. 

Which does beg the question, why does she need to tell her mom she needs a bow at the funeral? I would assume if she were that involved with and accomplished at archery, she would already own one.🤔

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, moonshine71 said:

Which does beg the question, why does she need to tell her mom she needs a bow at the funeral? I would assume if she were that involved with and accomplished at archery, she would already own one.🤔

Because it was buried in rubble. 

[swanpride]

Btw, did anyone mention the "Thanos was right" graffiti? Loved where it was placed....

[Captain Carrot]

So I re-watched the first episode and the mom is definitely a less than great person. Based on the 2012 scene it looks like Kate was closer to her father than her mother, which may explain some of the present day dynamic. Also, something funky may have been going on before the penthouse took any damage. Her father went downstairs, then her mother did. She called them before there was damage, but after she got scared and no one came to get her right away. What were her parents doing?

Also, I put the cc on for Eleanor's argument with Armand, and here's the conversation. (My emphasis in bold and notes in italics).

Armand: I should've known that this empire of yours would be built on a lie.

Eleanor: By myself from the ground up. So whatever you think you saw is not true. (I had thought she took over her husband's company, but it sounds like she's claiming that she built the company. How did that work? Also, what did Armand see that would anger him so much)?

Armand: Don't insult my intelligence.

Eleanor: Frankly you're insulting us both.

Armand: I know what I saw.

Eleanor: You are all just--

Armand: Don't you try that on me. I gave you an opportunity to explain yourself. (Who is all, and what is Eleanor trying on him. Was she responding to a specific group of people? Or was she just using her go to move of criticizing people born with money when she has an argument with one of them)?

Eleanor: I don't want to argue with you. (Just a tad passive aggressive. I'm surprised she didn't say that she was sorry he was upset).

Armand: I've got powerful friends, too. The kind you don't want to mess with. (Who is Armand friends with, and who is Eleanor friends with)?

[Kel Varnsen]

That was pretty fun, a decent amount of action and I like the Christmas setting. Plus between this and F&twss I like seeing stuff like how The Avengers, probably the world's biggest celebrities deal with daily life and fans and such.

On 11/24/2021 at 1:34 PM, cambridgeguy said:

All those years of being around explosions have understandably taken their toll. 

The only thing I thought was dumb was how giant his hearing aids were. This is a world where nanotech suits that come out of nowhere are a thing. Come on Pepper get him some Stark tech.

On 11/24/2021 at 8:17 PM, jmonique said:

 also appreciated how she's medaled in multiple sports, but she wasn't automatically an ass-kicking superhero when her life was on the line. She held her own, but she also got thrown around and bruised.

She got beat up by bigger guys which makes sense. She was also regularly trying to catch her breath which I thought made sense.

I also noticed that her school friend was named Greer.

Spoiler

I wonder if she is Greer Grant aka Tigra?

 

[Sakura12]

4 hours ago, Captain Carrot said:

Armand: I've got powerful friends, too. The kind you don't want to mess with. (Who is Armand friends with, and who is Eleanor friends with)?

I think Armand getting killed the same night he threatened her means she has the more powerful friends.

[Bruinsfan]

Or fiancés. I mean, Armand III getting stabbed to death in his own home with a sword the same night that he and Jacques had a fraught discussion about being his heir, and the latter stole Clint's switchblade katana, is an awfully big coincidence.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Bruinsfan

[paigow]

15 hours ago, Captain Carrot said:

Armand: Don't you try that on me. I gave you an opportunity to explain yourself. (Who is all, and what is Eleanor trying on him. Was she responding to a specific group of people? Or was she just using her go to move of criticizing people born with money when she has an argument with one of them)?

Eleanor: I don't want to argue with you. (Just a tad passive aggressive. I'm surprised she didn't say that she was sorry he was upset).

Armand: I've got powerful friends, too. The kind you don't want to mess with. (Who is Armand friends with, and who is Eleanor friends with)?

 The Powerbroker and Splinter groups of SHIELD / HYDRA 

[tv echo]

On 11/25/2021 at 10:29 AM, tv echo said:

Director and EP Rhys Thomas said (in this GamesRadar interview) that Hawkeye takes place "two years after the events of Endgame."

Huh? ...

Edited November 27, 2021 by tv echo

[Sandman]

On 11/24/2021 at 11:55 AM, starri said:

No lie, I squealed "Pizza Dog!"

I thought that was me!

I agree that Steinfeld is absolutely perfectly cast -- like Hayley Atwell-level ideal.

On 11/24/2021 at 8:17 PM, jmonique said:

Kate had me at "See, that's just it, Gary: You don't even know my name."

Also me too. The slight break that Kate managed to put in her voice was the touch of genius.

On 11/24/2021 at 3:31 PM, thuganomics85 said:

I'm definitely keeping my eye on Eleanor.  If nothing else, I don't see them getting freaking Vera Farmiga of all people and have her merely be Kate's mom.

Hiring Vera Farmiga was my first clue. But having Eleanor's first appearance in the show's present day be in that billowing crimson shift just screams "Hello, I am a SUPERVILLAINESS, and Agatha Harkness is totally my suburban bestie!" (Run, Kate!)

Also: Is Armand VII the great-great grandson of Armand III, or do the Dusquesnes have more than one Armand per generation, like George Foreman and his four sons named George (enumerated II through V)?

Edited November 28, 2021 by Sandman
Someone doesn't know how Armand IV works...

[Captain Carrot]

56 minutes ago, Sandman said:

Also: Is Armand VII the great-great grandson of Armand III, or do the Dusquesnes have more than one Armand per generation, like George Foreman and his four sons named George (enumerated II through V)?

I'm guessing that he has multiple children and/or nieces and nephews that named their kids Armand to suck up to him and get in the will.

And until someone that knows more about physics say otherwise I'm going to have the opinion that Stane Tower was about to fall apart and Kate did everyone a favor by destroying it when it was closed.

[kittykat]

18 hours ago, paigow said:

 The Powerbroker and Splinter groups of SHIELD / HYDRA 

My first thought when I wondered where her money came from was ties with Powerbroker.  They haven't tied any of the four D+ shows together yet but it's a possible connection.  Also potential profiteering off real estate from BoNY and/or the Blip.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

42 minutes ago, kittykat said:

My first thought when I wondered where her money came from was ties with Powerbroker.  They haven't tied any of the four D+ shows together yet but it's a possible connection.  Also potential profiteering off real estate from BoNY and/or the Blip.

Spoilering just in case:

If it's true that Kingpin/Wilson Fisk is going to show up, maybe Eleanor is in cahoots with him. It might just be another Mephisto thing, but there's a *lot* of spec that Fisk is going to make an appearance.

[Dandesun]

But can we talk for a minute about Eleanor's magnificent party caftan?

Because that shit was off the hook. It is a STATEMENT PIECE and I was in love with it immediately.

[Kel Varnsen]

Oh I realized on my second watch with the kids (and being a fairly big Community fan) that if Armand had left with the Ronin sword, it would have become the Sword of Ducane.

[Sandman]

41 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

It is a STATEMENT PIECE

Statement of EEEVIL. Yes.

[blackwing]

How is it possible that none of the Tracksuit Mafia or anyone at all could recognise that the person in the Ronin suit was a woman?  Her build did not look like a man at all, she squealed and yelped and sounded like a woman, but yet they kept referring to her as a guy and calling him "hey bro".

What happened to the watch?  At first I thought the dog grabbed the watch and ran into traffic, but I couldn't tell if he actually had it.

On 11/24/2021 at 2:02 PM, arc said:

TBH, while the songs were hilarious and so was including Ant-Man, I was really taken aback by how cheap the costumes looked. This was supposed to be Broadway, not off-Broadway. I still loved it though.

I don’t think I buy that some (homebrew) trick arrow somehow caused the bell tower to collapse, esp because it did exactly what the normal action of ringing the bell should do.

I think the cheapness and cheesiness was part of the inexplicable appeal.  

On 11/24/2021 at 2:13 PM, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I forgot to mention that I thought that was a really effective little moment, seeing that Clint still carries his memories of Nat no matter how long it's been. She was his closest friend, and we don't know how long it took him to work through the guilt of coming back from Vormir without her.

 

What was attached to the second arrow? She tried a tennis ball first, and it pinged off and didn't do anything, so she used something solid enough to make the bell ring. When the creaking first starts, Kate mutters, "Maybe it's cracked. Some famous bells have cracks in them", and then the whole thing collapses before a security guard catches her on the scene. It could have been old or shoddy construction, or the bell was damaged, but nothing would have happened if she hadn't been fooling around because of a dare or bet.

She and her friends were trying to decide if the bell swung back and forth and hit a stationary clapper to make the sound, or if the clapper (the "dangling thing" as she called it) was the item that moved back and forth to make the sound.  With some bell towers, it's the bell itself that moves back and forth (think Quasimodo pulling on the rope to move the bell back and forth).  But others, the clapper moves.  This one, the clapper moved.  She attached some kind of bolo to the arrow so that the bolo would wrap around the rope attached to the clapper and the continued movement of the arrow would move the clapper into the bell and make noise.  I think the top of the tower crumbled because it was old, and the bell was probably never rung anymore for fear the movement and sound waves would destroy the tower.

On 11/25/2021 at 2:54 PM, moonshine71 said:

Which does beg the question, why does she need to tell her mom she needs a bow at the funeral? I would assume if she were that involved with and accomplished at archery, she would already own one.🤔

I didn't think she was an accomplished archer.  Hawkeye saved her life during the Battle of New York by shooting that Chitauri down with an arrow.  Then she saw him on the rooftop fighting the bad guys and doing his famous backward leap off the roof, and she was mesmerised.  That's when she decided she wanted to be an archer.  The martial arts started before that time, but I think the credits were basically meant to indicate that in the intervening 13 years, she became a master archer, fencer, and martial arts practitioner.

[Wynterwolf]

22 minutes ago, Sandman said:

Statement of EEEVIL. Yes.

Right? I love her!! Jack really thinks he's in control, but ho boy is he going to be in for a surprise. 

16 minutes ago, blackwing said:

 

I didn't think she was an accomplished archer.  Hawkeye saved her life during the Battle of New York by shooting that Chitauri down with an arrow.  Then she saw him on the rooftop fighting the bad guys and doing his famous backward leap off the roof, and she was mesmerised.  That's when she decided she wanted to be an archer.  The martial arts started before that time, but I think the credits were basically meant to indicate that in the intervening 13 years, she became a master archer, fencer, and martial arts practitioner.

That was my take too, that she was already into the martial arts (kids that age are usually already scheduled with various classes to the point it's basically a full time job, and money was obviously no object). And I loved how they handled the training montage through the credits. It was very cool! 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

33 minutes ago, blackwing said:

How is it possible that none of the Tracksuit Mafia or anyone at all could recognise that the person in the Ronin suit was a woman?  Her build did not look like a man at all, she squealed and yelped and sounded like a woman, but yet they kept referring to her as a guy and calling him "hey bro".

I think that's just their thing, calling people 'bro'. Because they were calling Clint and each other 'bro' during the scene where he's tied up, before Kate crashes through the skylight. You'd think they'd at least use names amongst themselves, since the track suits alone give them away as a club, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

Right? I love her!! Jack really thinks he's in control, but ho boy is he going to be in for a surprise.

Somebody in my MCU group on Facebook said that every time Vera Farmiga is on screen, they expect a demon to jump out or something. Like, you probably don't know the half of it.

[Sandman]

What was going on with Jack's accent? It seemed to fade in and out an awful lot. (Evil. Probably.)

[Kel Varnsen]

3 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Somebody in my MCU group on Facebook said that every time Vera Farmiga is on screen, they expect a demon to jump out or something. Like, you probably don't know the half of it.

It will be interesting to see which mom played by Vera Farmiga in 2021 will be more terrible: Kate's mom or Tony Soprano's mom.

[Ailianna]

20 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

It will be interesting to see which mom played by Vera Farmiga in 2021 will be more terrible: Kate's mom or Tony Soprano's mom.

If it's not limited to 2021, it's not even a contest. The most terrible mom she's ever played (or probably ever will) is Norman Bates' mom.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, blackwing said:

How is it possible that none of the Tracksuit Mafia or anyone at all could recognise that the person in the Ronin suit was a woman?  Her build did not look like a man at all, she squealed and yelped and sounded like a woman, but yet they kept referring to her as a guy and calling him "hey bro".

 

They did realized she was a woman. After she saves the dog they said they were going to follow her. They called everyone bro. 

6 hours ago, blackwing said:

What happened to the watch?  At first I thought the dog grabbed the watch and ran into traffic, but I couldn't tell if he actually had it.

On 11/24/2021 at 12:02 PM, arc said:

He still had it around his hand when Kate knocks him out. 

6 hours ago, blackwing said:

I didn't think she was an accomplished archer.  Hawkeye saved her life during the Battle of New York by shooting that Chitauri down with an arrow.  Then she saw him on the rooftop fighting the bad guys and doing his famous backward leap off the roof, and she was mesmerised.  That's when she decided she wanted to be an archer.  The martial arts started before that time, but I think the credits were basically meant to indicate that in the intervening 13 years, she became a master archer, fencer, and martial arts practitioner.

She had an archery medal and trophy before the Battle of New York so she was already a somewhat accomplished archer before she saw Hawkeye. 

[swanpride]

That was a karate (or some other fighting sport) trophy. Which makes perfect sense, btw. Archers are expressive, but their main asset is the ability to stay calm under pressure, which is something you can learn later in life and be extremely successful in the sport. But for hand to hand combat, fencing aso, you need to start really, really early to rise to the top because there are certain aspects of it which are more difficult to learn later in life. This goes so far that we have by now a phenomenon with adults being more prone to falling badly when they get older because they didn't do the kind of sport as a child which would have given them a basic sense for balance which will apparently stay with you your whole life. 

[paigow]

20 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Somebody in my MCU group on Facebook said that every time Vera Farmiga is on screen, they expect a demon to jump out or something.

Clooney or DiCaprio

[Morrigan2575]

On 11/24/2021 at 9:51 AM, Spartan Girl said:

Clearly, Broadway didn’t learn its lesson after Spider-Man: Turn Off the Dark. That’s all I can say.

Wasted a fantastic opportunity to have Chris Evans Sing and Dance 😂

 

On 11/24/2021 at 8:47 AM, Ailianna said:

liked it, but I've liked Clint in all the movies. I like his everyman qualities. I'm not a comics reader, so I only know him from the MCU.

Same. The episode has my attention from the start. I rather enjoyed Kate and her story, even if the back story is comics 101.

So far Kate looks like a pretty cool character. I'm curious as to what happened to Clinton hearing. I know it's comic book accurate but was never addressed before so I'm assuming something happened recently.

There's something up with the dog, he's way too smart to be a normal dog.

[HelloooKitty]

On 11/24/2021 at 12:58 PM, paigow said:

The punchline must be that Pepper Potts financed Rogers: The Musical

I would’ve guessed Coulson…

[SnarkShark]

On 11/25/2021 at 3:54 PM, moonshine71 said:

Which does beg the question, why does she need to tell her mom she needs a bow at the funeral? I would assume if she were that involved with and accomplished at archery, she would already own one.🤔

Kate states that she studied martial arts from 5. No start date is declared for her other skills. 

Other of those nick-nacks in 2012 seem to belong to the person we LITERALLY saw teach her in the opening credit sequence.  Her mother.  They're not even vague about Mom training her.  It's explicitly shown, albeit in animated form. 

There's also a photo of a gymnast, for example, that clearly can't be Kate at that age (who could be one, but the person was definitely older).

Anyway, it's easy to assume the archery was just an addition in 2012. A new skill. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by SnarkShark

[Kel Varnsen]

9 hours ago, HelloooKitty said:

I would’ve guessed Coulson…

Speaking of the show, was that the first time Natasha was referred to as The Black Widow in public. After seeing her movie I am wondering where that name came from, considering it was based on the Black Widow program she escaped from. Who decided that would be her Shield code name?

[Angeleyes]

I really enjoyed this first episode. I never read her comics, so it was good to see her backstory. I love Brian d’Arcy James from his Broadway work so I’m hoping we’ll get more flashbacks of Kate’s dad. I’ve enjoyed Hailee Steinfeld in the Pitch Perfect movies and other projects I’ve seen her in so she’s a good foil for Jeremy Renner. I also enjoyed seeing Clint with his kids. The Rogers musical was hilarious and Clint’s reaction to it was understandable. Incidentally, that was Adam Pascal (from Rent and other musicals) playing the New Yorker in the gray suit.  I look forward to seeing where they take this series. 

Have any of you been watching the Easter egg videos for the other Marvel stuff? It helps explain a lot and they catch things I miss. I like the videos from Emergency Awesome and New Rockstars. Since they are Easter egg videos some things can be a bit spoilery. 
They have the videos up for this episode. 

 

 

[Sakura12]

On 11/29/2021 at 1:47 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

Oh I realized on my second watch with the kids (and being a fairly big Community fan) that if Armand had left with the Ronin sword, it would have become the Sword of Ducane.

Jack took the sword and he has the same last name. So it still works. 

[kirkola]

For whatever it's worth, Kate having money isn't that surprising, especially if Kate's Daddy died in 2012.  The family might have been cash poor, but they likely still had investments and life insurance policies for Mommy & daughter.  And if Daddy's family were extremely wealthy, there may have been trusts set aside for Kate's upbringing, and money for her when she came of age. 

My Boss isn't wealthy by any stretch of the imagination, but he has plenty of cash that will appear if/when something happens to him.  But to hear him talk, he doesn't have two nickels.  Just investments, real estate properties, rainy day money, and an extremely generous life insurance.  His son will have a surprising little nest egg when Boss dies.  But, you know, Boss is near penniless and lives paycheck to paycheck.  The fact that his definition of penniless involves having way more cash in the bank than any of his employees escapes him. 

My takeaway with Mommy & Daddy's argument about being broke is that she's a bit like my Boss.  Being poor isn't always being poor.  Sometimes it just means the investment didn't go your way or that all the ready cash is tied up elsewhere. 

[paigow]

14 minutes ago, kirkola said:

Being poor isn't always being poor. Sometimes it just means the investment didn't go your way or that all the ready cash is tied up elsewhere. 

Or you embezzled money to turn a quick profit but missed the deadline to put it back before anybody noticed. Now you will die.

[Ailianna]

I watched Endgame again this weekend, and I realized that Ant-Man was at the Battle of New York. Just not the first time. Since Scott was with them there during the time heist the second time. Now I'm wondering if someone recognized him there somehow, and that's how he ended up in the musical. Because otherwise he's really random to include, versus other better known heroes. And I get that's part of the humor, but its also typical Marvel continuity.  

[arc]

2 hours ago, Ailianna said:

Now I'm wondering if someone recognized him there somehow, and that's how he ended up in the musical.

According to the songwriters, he was added as a deliberate historical inaccuracy, in a nod to how history as pop culture products usually gets some details wrong.

[Ailianna]

I've seen those comments too, but sometimes there is subconscious continuity. Of all the random people, why Ant-Man? I also know that the writers of the musical aren't really Marvel fans before the assignment, but its still odd that the "mistake" might not be.

[johntfs]

10 hours ago, Ailianna said:

I've seen those comments too, but sometimes there is subconscious continuity. Of all the random people, why Ant-Man? I also know that the writers of the musical aren't really Marvel fans before the assignment, but its still odd that the "mistake" might not be.

Why not Ant-Man?  On one level it works to allow the "he wasn't even there" comment.  On another level it may give us a bit of insight into what's going on for Scott now.  It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that Steve Rogers publicly praised Scott as the one who came up with the Time Heist idea that allowed the Avengers to not only restore the universe's population but to defeat Thanos once and for all.

And Steve probably did that to make sure that Scott didn't get jammed up due to "breaking parole" or some bullshit by using his suit "without proper authorization."  Figure not even an asshat like Thunderbolt Ross is going to arrest the guy who saved the universe.  Figure that Scott is now known far and wide as a true Avenger.  So figure the musical guys just retro-fitted him in there or something.

[Kel Varnsen]

11 hours ago, johntfs said:

Why not Ant-Man?  On one level it works to allow the "he wasn't even there" comment.  On another level it may give us a bit of insight into what's going on for Scott now.  It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that Steve Rogers publicly praised Scott as the one who came up with the Time Heist idea that allowed the Avengers to not only restore the universe's population but to defeat Thanos once and for all.

And Steve probably did that to make sure that Scott didn't get jammed up due to "breaking parole" or some bullshit by using his suit "without proper authorization."  Figure not even an asshat like Thunderbolt Ross is going to arrest the guy who saved the universe.  Figure that Scott is now known far and wide as a true Avenger.  So figure the musical guys just retro-fitted him in there or something.

Or maybe within the MCU Ant-Man/Scott Lang is just really popular and everyone likes him the same way that Paul Rudd is really popular and everyone likes him.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Kel Varnsen

[johntfs]

17 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Or maybe within the MCU Ant-Man/Scott Lang is just really popular and everyone likes him the same way that Paul Rudd is really popular and everyone likes him.

The scene with the girls and Hulk in Endgame somewhat argues against that. 

[arc]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

The scene with the girls and Hulk in Endgame somewhat argues against that. 

Maybe, but being a key, key part of the Unsnappening/Blip probably raised his profile since then.

Honestly it’s wild an Avenger sat in the audience of a Broadway play fictionalizing events he was a key part of and it wasn’t a big deal when he left midway through. This is where the tensions between the Matt Fraction/David Aja comic and the MCU’s accumulated history kinda bang up against each other. In the comic he’s kind of a disaster but then again, MU New Yorkers are a pretty resilient bunch and generally don’t even think of things like the MCU’s Battle of New York as epoch-defining events. In the MCU, Clint has been at the center of multiple world-saving situations, most recently the Blip. And he just gets dinner comped occasionally??? He doesn’t even wear a mask in his superheroing! 

[Guest]

19 hours ago, johntfs said:

The scene with the girls and Hulk in Endgame somewhat argues against that. 

He had been missing for 5 years at that point. 

[snarktini]

On 11/26/2021 at 9:58 AM, Captain Carrot said:

 Also, something funky may have been going on before the penthouse took any damage. Her father went downstairs, then her mother did. She called them before there was damage, but after she got scared and no one came to get her right away. What were her parents doing?

 

I hope this gets picked up later. There were far too many seconds of a little girl yelling for mommy/daddy in the midst of destruction with absolutely no response from either parent. It's a huge place but not that huge! There has to be a reason there was such silence.

[albinerhawk]

On 1/9/2022 at 2:12 AM, snarktini said:

I hope this gets picked up later. There were far too many seconds of a little girl yelling for mommy/daddy in the midst of destruction with absolutely no response from either parent. It's a huge place but not that huge! There has to be a reason there was such silence.

As a mother of three daughters all younger than Kate was, this scene hit me hard. I couldn't imagine being a parent and leaving my daughter in that situation alone for so long. Not knowing the comics, I assumed both parents had been killed by the strike that blew a hole in the side of the apartment until Eleanor reappeared.

Edited May 20, 2022 by albinerhawk