Show Spoilers and Book Talk

[satrunrose]

I've had a theory since reading MOBY that the whole "Frank wants to run off to England with Bree and his mistress 'cause reasons." plot actually has something to do with whatever he found out about Bree relating to his spy connections. I guess I have to wait on the next book (at least) for that one. 

[abbey]

Nevermind...I answered my own question.  Google is my friend.

Edited September 22, 2017 by abbey
answered my own question

[Nidratime]

Interview with Ron Moore, Maril Davis, Caitriona Balfe and Tobias Menzies with The Hollywood Reporter:

'Outlander' Team Breaks Down Major Death and Surprise Return

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/outlander-frank-randall-dies-tobias-menzies-exits-1041289

Some more press. I'm putting it here because there's spoilers in it for the season. There's a spoiler warning for the *episode* at the top, but it ends up spoiling the direction of the show for the rest of the season! Ron Moore certainly has loose lips!

‘Outlander’ Boss and Stars Address That Big Death in ‘All Debts Paid’

http://variety.com/2017/tv/features/outlander-frank-randall-tobias-menzies-ron-moore-all-debts-paid-1202566840/

Edited September 25, 2017 by Nidratime

[Nidratime]

Another clip from Episode 4, Of Lost Things.

Watch an Exclusive Clip From the Fourth Episode of Outlander Season 3

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainment/tv/a12475020/outlander-of-lost-things-clip/

[Nidratime]

Diana's comments about Murtagh remaining alive ... Part I.

[DittyDotDot]

45 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

Diana's comments about Murtagh remaining alive ... Part I.

I know a lot of people find Diana off putting, but I enjoy her candor, myself. Got a great kick out of her title of MURTAGH THE UNDEAD...can't wait for part two!

[abbey]

Thanks Nidratime for sharing Diana's comments on Murtagh.  Looking forward to part 2.

[Nidratime]

Another sneak peek from episode 4:

http://tvline.com/2017/09/27/outlander-season-3-episode-4-video-claire-pearls/

[morgan]

Love the sneak peak, but still hate those pearls.  They are all wrong!  And still not feeling the actress they cast as Bree, although that was just one short clip so maybe she is better or will grow on me in the rest of her part this season.

[Haleth]

Sophie Skelton is terrible in that scene.  Wow.

[nodorothyparker]

I'm more than a little surprised the show has Claire having left Jamie's wedding gift to her so haphazardly behind with Mrs. Graham, even commenting that she had never expected to see the pearls again.  Even if you can't bear to wear them or look at them, put them away someplace safe for your daughter.

[ElsieH]

No kidding. And what happened to the ring with the burned out ruby that had belonged to Jamie's father, where did that go? Even in the books, I always wondered how anyone managed to keep up with anything as much as they moved around. I mean, what did Claire do, keep those pearls in some kind of pocket on her dress? I know she had them sewn into her pocket at some point, but with everything going on right before Culloden, did she really have time to think of them and make sure she had them? Same with Jamie and his wooden snake from his brother.

Also, I agree that Sophie is terrible in that scene. Doesn't seem she had any acting lessons during the Droughtlander.

Edited September 28, 2017 by ElsieH

[Atlanta]

Doesn't Brianna later wear that ring when she weds Roger? Maybe Claire had it repaired?

[GHScorpiosRule]

You know, I just realized something. And of course, this will depend on whether we get a season five. Of course, this may have happened in Buik Four, so maybe we'll see it, and it will be such a disconnect, considering how acrimonious they depicted Claire and Frank's marriage to be on the show. I'm speaking of course, of the time when Claire refused to give up her wedding ring that Frank had given her, or had, and was obsessed with getting it back, something which pissed off Jamie because of the danger it put them all in, I think. I don't quite recall, as I zipped through all the buiks the summer after the first season.  Because we know in the buiks, that Claire and Frank had a mostly amiable marriage. Then again, based on that fight in Voyager, and the threats Frank made, which went unresolved because he was killed, I remain confuzzled at Claire's loyalty to Frank.

[AheadofStraight]

4 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

Doesn't Brianna later wear that ring when she weds Roger? Maybe Claire had it repaired?

I wouldn't count on anything involving rings. One of my favorite parts of book 2 was Claire discovering that Jamie had the ring etched with the line from the poem.  I mourned that ring change, haha!

[ElsieH]

Yeah, and she couldn't wear it anyway. Even if Claire had it repaired and left it for her, it most likely would have been in the 20th century. And Bree marries Roger in the past, so it would just get ruined again going back through.

I thought the gold ring from Frank was stolen by Bonnett. And Bree trying to get it back was what got her raped. But it is all fuzzy, I guess I'll have to re-read that one again. If we do get season 5, it will be hard to re-read book 5. I started trying to re-read it a while ago and I just couldn't get through it. I'm surprised I made it through the first time.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, Grashka said:

This was in "Drums of Autumn", so we will probably see that moment *assuming the writers won't have their own ideas* in season 4. Claire was fighting with teeth and claws against one of Bonnet's men who wanted to steal Frank's ring. It also included a dreamy, sigh -inducing moment featuring Jamie jumping between Claire and the thug and literally covering her with his own body to protect her againt the guy's wrath... so I do hope they will show it ;-)

Was it that she refused to give it up because it was Frank's ring or that she being typical Claire and being reckless in standing up to the bullies? I really can't remember, my memory was she wasn't thinking about the ring itself, but was just pissed off about being robbed by Bonnet after they had saved his life and just being a general pain in the ass.

There's also the time in a later book when Claire gets mightily pissed at Jamie wanting to gamble with her one of her rings so I might be confusing details here.

Edited September 28, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Rilla-my-Rilla]

The guy tries to steal both of Claire's rings and after she takes them off she tries to swallow them so they can't have them. The guy digs in her mouth and gets one of the rings while the other is sort of stuck in her throat. The guys leave after stealing one ring, jewels, and other things. Jamie makes her take some drink to make her throw up. It is then that is revealed she still has Jamie's ring. She tries to save both, not just Frank's so I'm sure it will be in the show. 

[Nidratime]

The Outlander team talks about "the print shop" scene and Jamie and Claire's reunion:

Outlander: Here's When the Infamous Print Shop Scene Is Coming

https://www.popsugar.com/entertainment/Outlander-Print-Shop-Scene-44081402/

[Nidratime]

Quote

Re: sneak peak with pearls. I'm not a native speaker but could it be that Sophie's rather awful delivery is caused not by lack of acting talent, but because she is focusing all her abilities on speaking with Bostonian accent (I assume it's supposed to be Bostonian) and suppressing her own British one?

She's really not speaking with a Boston accent, neither an upper class one, nor one you might hear in the more working class neighborhoods. She's speaking standard, middle America, TV news announcer accented American. It'd be too hard, I think, to do a Boston one. Even Americans from other parts of the U.S. have a hard time with it. So, I could see why they wouldn't want her to do that.

However, I do feel her performance is impacted by her attempts to downplay and smooth out her British accent. She almost speaks with no intonations or inflection which makes her sound rather wooden. An American would have those natural intonations/inflections, of course. But, she's trying to iron out her own natural inflections in order to get that "plainer" American intonation that foreigners tend to adopt when trying to sound American. Hugh Laurie, who used to be on that medical drama, House -- I felt -- was notorious for this. Everyone complimented him on how much he sounded like an American, but honestly, I felt his voice was rather one note and not as good as all that. In any event, in the last season's finale, there were times when I thought Sophie was getting the hang of it and was sounding more natural, but there were other times when you could tell she was working on it. I'm hoping, over time, the former predominates over the latter.

ETA: If you want to hear a real Boston accent -- but not a so-called "high class" one, like JFK's -- you should listen to the Mary and Blake's Outlander Podcasts. Blake is from Boston and has the accent in all its glory!

Some samples of the Boston accent:

 

 

Edited September 28, 2017 by Nidratime

[Rilla-my-Rilla]

39 minutes ago, Grashka said:

I think both ;-) but Rilla described this scene better than me.

Re: sneak peak with pearls. I'm not a native speaker but could it be that Sophie's rather awful delivery is caused not by lack of acting talent, but because she is focusing all her abilities on speaking with Bostonian accent (I assume it's supposed to be Bostonian) and suppressing her own British one?

And while I'm at it, what's that Jamie says to another groom once Geneva rides away? I cannot for the life of me figure it out.

Yeah, I just re-read Drums of Autumns the past 2 weeks, finished up on Sunday. Otherwise, I wouldn't have all those details. She does something to upset the robber (that i can't recall now) and that's why he decides to take the rings. It goes from her standing up to a bully to trying to save both her rings basically.

"A boot to the hindquarters is what that one needs!" 

[FnkyChkn34]

9 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I'm more than a little surprised the show has Claire having left Jamie's wedding gift to her so haphazardly behind with Mrs. Graham, even commenting that she had never expected to see the pearls again.  Even if you can't bear to wear them or look at them, put them away someplace safe for your daughter.

Didn't Frank forbid her from keeping anything at all from Jamie or that reminded her of Jamie (or the 1700s)?  He made her all of those ultimatums.  I think she *had* to give them to Mrs. Graham if she didn't want them totally destroyed.

[Nidratime]

I remember them burning her clothing despite the fact that it was historically accurate, and Frank's colleague was appalled.

[GHScorpiosRule]

9 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

I remember them burning her clothing despite the fact that it was historically accurate, and Frank's colleague was appalled.

Yep, Frank burned her clothes-and this told me that show!Frank believed her story of being in the past. Otherwise why would he, a historian, burn them?

[morgan]

Oooh, I wonder if the struggle for the accent is what is affecting her performance?  I hadn't thought of that one.  Wish they had just had her sound British then.  Raised by 2 Brits makes that very realistic no matter where she was raised.  I am hoping Sophie will grow with her role though and maybe I will see her differently over time.  She works with some amazing  actors so definitely has some great opportunities to grow and develop.  Rik and Tobias especially.  

 

Dying laughing over the Boston accent clips.  I have lived here for many years now and have a good enough ear for a fake accent that I am just happy they didn't have her try to attempt one.  Bad ones are the worst!

[toolazy]

9 hours ago, Atlanta said:

Doesn't Brianna later wear that ring when she weds Roger? Maybe Claire had it repaired?

Right. But in the books it hadn't taken a journey through the stones to the 20th century.

1 hour ago, morgan said:

Oooh, I wonder if the struggle for the accent is what is affecting her performance?  I hadn't thought of that one.  Wish they had just had her sound British then.  Raised by 2 Brits makes that very realistic no matter where she was raised.  I am hoping Sophie will grow with her role though and maybe I will see her differently over time.  She works with some amazing  actors so definitely has some great opportunities to grow and develop.  Rik and Tobias especially.  

 

Dying laughing over the Boston accent clips.  I have lived here for many years now and have a good enough ear for a fake accent that I am just happy they didn't have her try to attempt one.  Bad ones are the worst!

Last year some people pointed out that she is a Brit trying to do an American accent in a cast full of Brits speaking in British accents.  That's got to be awfully difficult.

[DittyDotDot]

10 hours ago, toolazy said:

Last year some people pointed out that she is a Brit trying to do an American accent in a cast full of Brits speaking in British accents.  That's got to be awfully difficult.

Sophie's accent doesn't bother me at all. Brianna is described as having a strange accent in the books--both in the past and future--I always chalked it up to her having a hybridized accent due to British parents and growing up in Boston. I think she's doing just fine with it, myself.

[morgan]

I'm not sure people are criticizing the accent as much as they are suggesting that her focus on getting the accent is weakening her acting ability.  

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, morgan said:

I'm not sure people are criticizing the accent as much as they are suggesting that her focus on getting the accent is weakening her acting ability.  

I understand that, but I just don't see it. I think the actress is doing just fine with both the accent and the acting. Other than how she physically looks, so far, she has embodied the character nicely, IMO. But miles vary on these things.

[morgan]

56 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I understand that, but I just don't see it. I think the actress is doing just fine with both the accent and the acting. Other than how she physically looks, so far, she has embodied the character nicely, IMO. But miles vary on these things.

Oh ok gotcha.  Wish I felt the same!  Still hopeful that the more experience and exposure to such a an amazing cast will strengthen her abilities.

Edited September 29, 2017 by morgan

[Rilla-my-Rilla]

To me, Sophie seems to do better with the angry Bree  stuff, but she gets some not great lines. I think the dialogue for her is bad sometimes and don't really blame her for that. Like last year's "I like watching history being made" or whatever. Cheese. In the clip, she seemed to have a harder time with the false exuberance and reverting to youth, "What's wrong, mama?" But in general, I don't mind her, so hopefully does fine with next season.

Edited September 29, 2017 by Rilla-my-Rilla

[areca]

On 9/28/2017 at 7:39 AM, Haleth said:

Sophie Skelton is terrible in that scene.  Wow.

She's terrible in every scene.  In a show that has it's casting as strong as Outlander, she sticks out like two sore thumbs and a sore bum while we're at it.  That girl is BAD.  She's so bad, I wish they'd recast her RIGHT NOW.  I wouldn't mind at all.  I very nearly stopped watching last season because she is so terrible she pulls me out of the story in every way.  Hell, she even manages to drag down every superb actor she works with making them awkward.  She's a vortex of suck.  I have absolutely no idea how they made such an obvious misstep.  (I'm sure Sophie herself is a very lovely girl, but perhaps she should go to accounting school or something.)

Edited September 30, 2017 by areca

[Nidratime]

Quote

I very nearly stopped watching last season because she is so terrible she pulls me out of the story in every way.

She was only in the finale.

[Nidratime]

Putting this here because it references upcoming episodes, but it's not a terribly spoilery article.

Sam Heughan Dyes His Hair Red Every Three Weeks for Outlander: 'It's Hard Being a Ginger'

http://people.com/style/sam-heughan-barbour-capsule-collection-outlander-season-3/

[Starla]

Did we see Fiona at the end of last season? I don't recall seeing the actress or hearing of her casting. Anyway, it was good to see her in the sneak peak. I wonder if we'll see any antagonism between her and Bree over Roger. 

[WatchrTina]

15 minutes ago, Starla said:

Did we see Fiona at the end of last season?

Yes, she was at the wake.  She's the woman with long hair who encourages Roger to come out of the TV room at the very beginning of the season finale.  She also interrupts his talk with Brianna to tell him that some guests are leaving and if you pay careful attention you can see her giving side-eye to Brianna and you can sense Roger's impatience with her "attentiveness."  Of course, I may have just projected all that since I've read the books, but I think Richard Rankin was playing it that way.

Edited September 30, 2017 by WatchrTina

[toolazy]

14 minutes ago, Starla said:

Did we see Fiona at the end of last season? I don't recall seeing the actress or hearing of her casting. Anyway, it was good to see her in the sneak peak. I wonder if we'll see any antagonism between her and Bree over Roger. 

Fiona was in the final episode of season 2 but I don't recall if her designs on Roger Mac are revealed or not. 

[areca]

20 hours ago, Nidratime said:

She was only in the finale.

Yes, and I've read the books and was considering letting it go knowing how much Brianna is to come.  

Edit:  Also, the suck apparently made it feel like forever.

Edited September 30, 2017 by areca

[Nidratime]

Quote

Yes, and I've read the books and was considering letting it go knowing how much Brianna is to come.

Well, if this helps, the series is not the Brianna story.

[areca]

1 hour ago, Nidratime said:

Well, if this helps, the series is not the Brianna story.

Having read the books, I would say it's almost a third a Brianna story.  One I rather like actually.  

[Third Coast]

First time poster. I hope I am posting this in the right place. I found it weird that the TV series has Jamie being ready to have his Lordship be a father to his son with just the scenes they have had so far together. It doesn't really make sense to me. They are leaving out a lot of what happened between Jamie and John before Jamie got to the point he trusted John with William. I realize they can't put all that in, but the transition in the series was clumsy to me. I also wonder if later it will be explained why Jamie offered himself to John.

[theschnauzers]

23 minutes ago, Third Coast said:

First time poster. I hope I am posting this in the right place. I found it weird that the TV series has Jamie being ready to have his Lordship be a father to his son with just the scenes they have had so far together. It doesn't really make sense to me. They are leaving out a lot of what happened between Jamie and John before Jamie got to the point he trusted John with William. I realize they can't put all that in, but the transition in the series was clumsy to me. I also wonder if later it will be explained why Jamie offered himself to John.

Much of Lord John’s story comes after Voyager in the books and in the series of novellas featuring Lord John that basically is set between the years covered b Voyager. I actually think they’ve done a good job with the character, and it helps that they found the perfect actor for the role. And we’re not done with Lord John just yet.....

Spoiler

He’ll be back in the latter part of the season, at a minimum, don’t know if TPTB will have more than that during season 3, and the character and Willie appear in the next book as well.

[GHScorpiosRule]

10 hours ago, Third Coast said:

I also wonder if later it will be explained why Jamie offered himself to John.

We learned why Jamie offered himself to Lord John in a future buik--I can't recall if it was six or seven, where it was revealed he did it as a test. If the series lasts that long, we'll probably learn it, or the show runners and writers may not think it's important enough; since the reason he did it was to show Jamie was willing to do this for his child.

[WatchrTina]

I'm willing to bet that Jamie's offer to John is never addressed again and is never revealed as having been a "test" because Jamie's PTSD-induced homophobia is a tricky subject that the show probably wants to avoid.  I always thought that bit (Jamie's plan to kill John if he took him up on his "offer") was an unfortunate bit of ret-conning by Diana after some Jamie fans expressed outrage at that scene in book 3.

Edited October 2, 2017 by WatchrTina

[GHScorpiosRule]

Just now, WatchrTina said:

I'm willing to bet that Jamie's offer to John is never addressed again and is never revealed as having been a "test" because Jamie's PTSD-induced homophobia is a tricky subject that is the show probably wants to avoid.  I always thought that bit (Jamie's plan to kill John if he took him up on his "offer") was an unfortunately bit of ret-conning by Diana after some Jamie fans expressed outrage at that scene in book 3.

Yep, right there with you. And to try and give the show credit, I can easily believe in their friendship, because it's not as if Jamie was at Ardsmuir only for a few months before it shut down. He was there long enough for him and Lord John to have become friends. Now as buik readers, we know that it was much more than just Jamie being a prisoner and playing chess; Jamie was co-opted to work for Lord Melton in The Brotherhood of the Blade and then there's The Scottish Prisoner, that gives us oh so much more!

[WatchrTina]

One follow-up thought:  Book!Jamie's concern about John's intentions toward Willie are not out of left field.  The reality is that some sexual predators "groom" children to become their sexual playthings.  Book!Jamie doesn't have a clear understanding off the difference between homosexuality between consenting adults and men who prey on little boys.  He's a man of his time and a rape survivor suffering from PTSD so we have to forgive him that.  But he's not stupid.  He KNOWS there are evil people in the world and that sexual desire (and sexual perversion) leads some people (hello Black Jack Randall) to do terrible things.  What struck me just now is that Diana's great friend, George R. R. Martin has a story-line in his big books that echos this theme.  Petyr Balish (Littlefinger) is obsesses with Caitlyn Stark.  When he cannot obtain the object of his desire, he settles (or tries to settle) for the next best thing -- her daughter who happens to look a lot like her.  You know Diana and George came up with those story-lines completely independently so I'd say that that kind of thing does happen in the world.  Jamie's suspicion about John's intentions towards his son are, alas, informed by his knowledge of the world.

[ElsieH]

You know, I had forgotten most of that. But if that's the case, then it makes less sense in the show since he offered himself before he knew that John was marrying Isobel. But I guess the writers haven't read that far ahead maybe.

[nodorothyparker]

7 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I'm willing to bet that Jamie's offer to John is never addressed again and is never revealed as having been a "test" because Jamie's PTSD-induced homophobia is a tricky subject that is the show probably wants to avoid.  I always thought that bit (Jamie's plan to kill John if he took him up on his "offer") was an unfortunately bit of ret-conning by Diana after some Jamie fans expressed outrage at that scene in book 3.

I've always thought it a ret-con to give Jamie a chance to look like he was exerting some control in a situation where he really had none.  He had no legal right or say at all where or to whom Willie went, maybe not even had he been willing to upset the entire apple cart in naming him a bastard.  And had he been serious in willing to murder Lord John, a well connected aristocrat, he would have found himself quickly hung and still had absolutely no say in it.  But by those later books Gabaldon is also having continuity problems, so who knows. 

It's funny because as it was depicted in the show version, I was really struck by how Jamie has had to go to the well of offering himself up as currency over and over again when he had nothing else to even try to bargain with.  It's one of those things that you "know" when you read the series, but doesn't fully register as you knowing it, if that makes any sense.

[lianau]

15 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I'm willing to bet that Jamie's offer to John is never addressed again and is never revealed as having been a "test" because Jamie's PTSD-induced homophobia is a tricky subject that the show probably wants to avoid.  I always thought that bit (Jamie's plan to kill John if he took him up on his "offer") was an unfortunate bit of ret-conning by Diana after some Jamie fans expressed outrage at that scene in book 3.

That's my impression too .

On the topic of William resembling Jamie and next best thing , I think Diana already went to dispel that line of thinking when Brianna "bullied" John into their engagement and offered to be a stepmother to Willie 

Edited October 3, 2017 by lianau
had more to say and posted to quickly

[WatchrTina]

On 10/2/2017 at 4:05 PM, nodorothyparker said:

I was really struck by how Jamie has had to go to the well of offering himself up as currency over and over again when he had nothing else to even try to bargain with. 

In light of that, it makes Mary McNab's offer to him that much sweeter.  He wasn't forced.  She just wanted to give him a moment of sweetness to serve as solace in the years to come.  When you consider how bittersweet his memories of Claire had to be -- true love, but mixed with deep grief -- his memories of that night with Mary (not love, just kindness) was probably exactly what he needed.

21 hours ago, lianau said:

Brianna "bullied" John into their engagement and offered to be a stepmother to Willie 

Wait, what?  I don't recall Brianna bullying John.  Quite the opposite, I recall John offering to marry the (seemingly) unmarried-and-pregnant Brianna to protect her from the censure of society AND the unwanted attention of some suiters.  But I never once thought John was doing it because she looks like Jamie.  Good grief. By the time that happens John's motivations (his desire to help Jamie by helping his family) is crystal clear.  

Later, when he marries Jamie's "widow" to protect her, even Jamie (when he reappears) does not suspect any other motive. That's why it's such a funny / shocking / holy-shit-John-you-better-run moment when John admits that he had been thinking about Jamie while having "carnal knowledge of [Jamie's] wife."  Gosh I hope the show gets there.  That is SUCH a good plot-line.  Jamie behaves badly and John does NOT let him off the hook.  Gosh I love the John/Jamie relationship in the books.  So rich.

Edited October 4, 2017 by WatchrTina