S06.E07: Back to the Finale: Part II

[scarynikki12]

Quote

With Ava a wreck, Behrad the Legends make a last-ditch effort to keep Sara from being abducted in the first place, even knowing that it will alter the timeline.

 

 

[scarynikki12]

Strictly speaking all they had to do was wait to grab Sara after the goodbye with Charlie. At least Behrad remembered and tried to grab her. 

Alternatively they could have tracked Gary and just stopped him from taking her in the first place.

Rory telling Sara that the ship sucked without her was sweet. It reminded me how he and Snart were impressed by, and bonded instantly with, her back in the pilot. And he gave her the verbal knock on the head she needed.

Given her fear of hurting the team and her “damaged” line I think this is meant to revisit how she saw herself when she was with the League. Then she saw herself as a monster because of what she’d done and now it’s because of what was done to her but they seem to be going with Rory’s point that she’s still Sara no matter what. 

If Sara got the ring from Dinah does that mean it’s the one Quentin gave her when they were married? If so that ring represents a failed marriage and you know Ava will throw a fit if she finds out. Hell Ava’s probably pissed that Sara has living parents since she never did so she’s not likely to want a ring that comes from one of them.

Nice scene with Sara and Spooner.

Nate is a terrible Constantine but Zano had fun. Interesting that Sara could sense what the team was doing. We haven’t seen that before.

I hope we see Kayla again. I think Lita would enjoy an alien stepmother.

Oh good the “Babe” annoyance is back.

Love the joy from the team at seeing Sara and congratulating Rory for getting her back like he said.

And Sara’s stuck with Ava forever.

[DanaK]

When did Constantine tell his girlfriend he had lost his magic?

So is this the “clean” version of Sara or the one mixed with monster?

I'm glad Sara is finally reunited with the team. It can suck having a cast member stuck and isolated away from the others for several episodes

[scarynikki12]

18 minutes ago, DanaK said:

When did Constantine tell his girlfriend he had lost his magic?

So is this the “clean” version of Sara or the one mixed with monster?

I'm glad Sara is finally reunited with the team. It can suck having a cast member stuck and isolated away from the others for several episodes

Zari figured it out herself and he admitted it when she asked him

Sara wasn't able to make the fully human clone to send to the team so she still has Bishop's enhancements.

[legaleagle53]

46 minutes ago, DanaK said:

I'm glad Sara is finally reunited with the team. It can suck having a cast member stuck and isolated away from the others for several episodes

Those of us who watched the first half of Season 6 of Supergirl would agree with you, even though there were very understandable real-world reasons that Supergirl's presence had to be isolated from the rest of the cast and be kept to a bare minimum.

Edited June 21, 2021 by legaleagle53

[DanaK]

10 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

Those of us who watched the first half of Season 6 of Supergirl would agree with you, even though there were very understandable real-world reasons that Supergirl's presence had to be isolated from the rest of the cast and be kept to a bare minimum!

I was one of those and it was on my mind as one of several examples when I made the comment, but like you, I understand the reasons they did it. I’m not sure I understand the reason here

[Proteus]

This better end up being the real Sara or the real Sara better be restored eventually.

[Oreo2234]

Quote

Those of us who watched the first half of Season 6 of Supergirl would agree with you, even though there were very understandable real-world reasons that Supergirl's presence had to be isolated from the rest of the cast and be kept to a bare minimum.

Quote

I was one of those and it was on my mind as one of several examples when I made the comment, but like you, I understand the reasons they did it. I’m not sure I understand the reason here

In addition to Kara being isolated from the cast she isn't even in the top 2 for screentime. Neither is Alex. I like Brainy but its weird that he has the most screentime so far in Supergirl's final season.  I don't know Sara's screentime but it feels like it might be less than usual. It's possible there are reason's for it beyond decisions made by the writers. 

[thuganomics85]

So, they are really going forward with Sara technically being one of Bishop's hybrid clones and whatnot.  I know she is still Sara in the sense that it is her persona, feelings, and general emotions that are still coming through, but the whole thing still seems off to me.  That said, it was almost worth it just for the Sara/Mick scene, where he continues to be unflinching when it comes to his loyalty and let her know that she will always be his "captain."  Still kind of crazy that they've established such a great dynamic between a pyro maniac and an assassin who dies at least "once a year."

Not surprised that the Legends attempts to "Back to the Future II" everything ended up backfiring, but it was still amusing.  Especially the visit from Nate out of a timeline where he is hilariously pretending to be Constantine since the real one died.  Nick Zano was definitely having fun with that bad accent (and a look that I have to imagine was inspired by Kurt Russell/Snake Plissken from Escape From New York.)

The Sara/Spooner scene was by far the best moment for the Spooner character, which really goes to show how important Sara is to the Legends (and this show.)

I was wondering if they were going to do something with Behrad and Astra after their scene in the "trapped in a television" episode last season, and it looks like it might be the case now!

Glad Zari already knows that Constantine lost his powers.  Not surprised she has forgiven him, but he better start being more honest going forward.

Sucks that Mick had to leave Kayla behind, but I wouldn't be surprised if another appearance is down the road.

Really wish I could have enjoyed Sarah's proposal to Ava more, but I still struggle to care about this relationship.  To be fair, I don't think I will ever be objective about this, since my heart always belonged to Sara/Nyssa.  But even then, Ava's actions lately have made it hard for me to care about Sara settling down with her of all people.

Definitely glad that Sara is back with the team now and I hope this will help kick things up a notch (I'm not as down on this season so far as others, but it admittedly hasn't been the strongest outing so far.)

[tv echo]

I actually enjoyed watching this episode for the most part, although I still don't like certain things...

I still feel uncomfortable that the Sara going forward is a clone and not the original Sara. I think we're supposed to believe that her soul traveled to her new body along with her consciousness. That might work if it was always the case that only one clone of a person at a time could exist. However, we have a multitude of Ava clones running around. So does every Ava clone have the same soul or different souls - or no soul at all? Is the new Sara clone soul-less? If Sara had succeeded in making the "pure" clone of herself (who then left with Mick) and then stayed on that planet, then there would be two Sara clones in existence. Would they each have the same soul? I just don't think the writers thought this twist through enough.*

(* The clone situation is not the same as the two Zaris situation (imo). The two Zaris are from different, alternate realities, so each is the real Zari - but just a Zari who grew up in different circumstances. So each Zari has the same basic soul that's been tempered by those different circumstances. However, the clones all exist at the same time in the same reality.)

I also feel uncomfortable that Mick, Sara and Gary left Kayla behind on that planet after she had returned to rescue them and also defended them. They should have at least circled around to try to find her. If they had done that and showed at least some effort had been made to find Kayla before giving up, it would've been better than them just flying out right away. It's like the only ones who matter are the Waverider crew. That abandonment will no doubt come back to bite them later.

As for the good parts, this show works when the entire Waverider group comes up with a plan and tries to execute it, however imperfectly. Also, more Sara and less Ava is always a good thing.  I liked that Zari finally found out about Constantine's loss of magic and called him on hiding it from her. And Behrad finally had something to do other than act stoned.

Edited June 21, 2021 by tv echo

[Lady Calypso]

For the most part, this episode was fairly decent. I did enjoy quite a bit, but of course, there are other things that bothered me.

Now, the idea of Sara being a clone is...growing on me. I'm still not fully comfortable with it, but it's a plot that will have consequences, since Sara won't be able to return to her original body, so that beats the powers that Sara gained, then lost, last season. And they did somewhat establish that Sara will always have all of her memories, even moving into a new body. It's still somewhat Sara, just with a different core body. Unfortunately, the show is also taking the non-soul approach in a way, since it's really just uploading into another body that's pre-made. It feels very much like what The 100 did in their final two seasons with the Mind Drives, so I think we're supposed to just accept that this is Sara, just in a new body. There's no turning back, at this point.

I did like how Sara was really trying to at least get a human version of her to her team, so she's not this weird human-alien hybrid (though, obviously, that didn't work out). Who knows what else Bishop did to her new body, which is probably what worries Sara the most. He basically violated her and that's disturbing enough. I will say, with this plot, this shoots Bishop up to one of the most intimidating and best villains in the Arrowverse. He's managed to do something that not a lot of villains do, which is actually alter one of our heroes' lives forever. Real life consequences really make an impact. And Bishop may not be the dark kind of villain, in the sense that he's terrifying with glares or physical violence, but the mental anguish he's inflicting on Sara right now, and how nonchalant and cheery he is, makes him one of the better villains I've seen from the Arrowverse in recent years. 

And I don't doubt that Bishop will be back. Clone Ava said as much that he can upload himself to anywhere in the universe, so I'm sure we'll see him again (though at least 5% of him is gone). 

Mick/Sara rarely share scenes so it was so nice to see them share a scene where he acknowledges the change she made on his life. Mick has known Sara the longest out of everyone (at least eight years, at this point with multiple time jumps) so I love that we got these two interacting. Please more of that, because I'm tired of Sara just interacting with Ava or John, and I'm tired of Mick not getting many things to do. It was so nice to see Mick step up this season. And I feel bad that he did have to leave Kayla behind...although they should have taken some time to look. It's not like they were under a strict 30 second deadline to leave the planet, and Kayla will return, pissed off, for sure. 

Them trying to change the season finale was funny. It was good to see Zari in the know about John's loss of powers. Nate as Constantine was entertaining for the minute that it happened. And Behrad had something to do! They do need to figure out Behrad's place on the team because the show has definitely been struggling with what role he has. 

The proposal...was sweet, I guess? If I was more into the couple, I'm sure I'd feel more about it. But it was just ok for me. They're engaged, which means a wedding is in the future. 

[lurker22]

So the real Sara is dead and we now have a 3D-printed alien-human hybrid clone. Will clone!Sara get wings, cos that's one of the things Bishop mentioned. It's sad that Sara died alone millions of miles away from people she loved, and her body is presumably blown up into tiny pieces and she won't get to be buried next to Laurel. Of course, no one is going to mourn her because we still have a copy of her around and all anyone cares about is the upcoming clone wedding.

At least it seems like she has some alien powers, so Caity might get to have the superpowers she always wanted after all. Back in S3 when the Legends went to save Zari 1.0, the Argus drones recognized Sara as a metahuman. So maybe that's because of clone!Sara's alien abilities (regenerative powers and more).

That talk about Sara being a monster, and afraid that she's going to hurt someone, that is not new. I hope she gets to talk through it with Spooner since it seems like she's going through the same thing. Or even Constantine since they now have to figure out who they are now, one without magic and one with alien dna. But let's face it, she'll only briefly bring it up to Ava and that'll be the end of it.

The best part of the show is once again Sara and Mick. I'm glad they brought up their history, and their friendship. It's nice to see gentle Mick, and how much he respects Sara, both as a friend, and as his Captain. In fact, he wrote a book about her, and that's how Bishop learned about Sara's resilience.

The next best thing is Behrad and how hard he's trying to save Sara. They told us that Sara and Behrad were close friends in last season's premiere, but then dropped the ball and we never got to see them in any one-on-one scenes after. It was nice to see someone concerned about Sara not because of Ava (Nate, Zari), and in true Legends fashion, willing to do something stupid to save them.

I think at least 94% of Bishop is still out there. He just needs to print himself a new body, probably with some upgrades now that he knows who he's up against.

Hopefully Kayla is still alive. I would hate to see her stay behind for Mick, and get killed because of that. But I think the Zacorons (?) only took her, not killed her.

[tarotx]

Constantine would be able to see if Sara had her soul if he had his full powers. They have to return to it. I personally am not watching until I find out if the clone has Sara's soul. Or at least if they mourn the loss of real Sara and how horrible it is how real Sara died all alone for nothing. That would break my heart for her but she deserves to be mourned if she's dead. 

And I guess Clone Sara proposed without telling Ava she's a clone now? I find that troubling. Keeping secrets suck. 

[Proteus]

I don't buy for a second that the show is moving forward with clone/alien hybrid Sara and that's just that. The show has made a big deal about souls the past few years and them being unique. Either this is some huge ruse played by Bishop & this is the real Sara or she will be made to  be imo.

I find it very disturbing that this Sara clone just came back & reunited with Ava knowing the real Sara is dead & she's an imposter. That brings up all kinds of consent issues.

 

[tennisgurl]

So on the plus side, Sara is finally back again with the rest of the crew and not on some distant planet, cursed to the realms of subplots, and is more or less still Sara for now. On the negative side, she is still an alien/human hybrid clone and not the original Sara which...I have mixed feelings about. I guess her memories and soul were just moved into this new body, and I am glad that at least we saw that she basically passed out then woke up in this new body, the original Sara didn't really experience death before getting moved to this new Sara, but it still feels weird. I guess I will have to wait and see how they handle it, I really hope that they do deal with the fact that this is a huge trauma for her and that what Bishop did was a terrible violation of her autonomy and that it isn't just swept under the rug in anticipation for Clone Wedding and Ava being all excited that they are both clones now. Can John check on her soul and make sure its where its supposed to be? I feel like this needs a lot more follow up then just being like "new year new body" like this is all just normal hijinks. She did get understandably upset about her new situation and what this means to her, so hopefully that is something they keep exploring. I am just really glad that Sara is back with the Legends again, the teams dynamic just wasn't the same without her. Clone body or not, she is the heart and soul of the show and the team, her being stuck elsewhere has really been dragging the season down. 

The proposal was nice I guess, although of course it was all Sara gushing about how Ava is the best, I just cant get that excited about it as I just do not care much for Ava/Sara as a couple. At least this episode had a lot of emphasis on Sara's relationships with other members of the team, especially with Mick, who she had some great scenes with, after the show spent so much time almost totally focusing on Sara as Ava's girlfriend at the expense of her other relationships. Like the show agrees with Ava that she is the only person allowed to care about Sara and that every romantic relationship Sara has ever had were just place holders for Ava, so at least we got some focus on how much everyone else loves her and vice versa. This will also mean we can take a break from Bishop and the Clone Army, which I am totally fine with. The Ava clones just seemed to exist so that we could get even more Ava even when Ava is in a totally different part of the universe and because the show hated the idea of Sara not existing with some variation of Ava for too long, and while Bishop had his moments as a bad guy, I would be happy to take a break from his schtick. I am sure that he will be back though, he might not be able to upload his whole self but he can sure download at least some of himself. Jes must be a bit relieved to leave the clones behind, it means she wont be forced into those godawful wigs at least. Its like someone in the wardrobe department is pissed at her after she took the last sandwich one day from the craft services table and those wigs were a form of revenge. 

It sucks that they left Kayla behind, but I think that we have not seen the last of her. 

Everyone running around in last seasons finale was fun, especially Nate as Constantine from a future timeline (and Nate's attempts at his accent makes him sound like a pirate) and some nice moments between Astra/Behrad and Spooner/Sara, proving that Sara really does make everything better, as that was one of her best scenes in the show. Also glad that Zari figured out that John lost his magic and that she called him out on keeping it from her, now hopefully he can tell everyone else. They really need to know that he doesn't have his usual firepower right now, especially if Sara needs a soul check in. Everyone being so thrilled at seeing Sara again was really sweet, it felt appropriately triumphant. 

[futurechemist]

The philosophical debate about whether or not Sara is real reminded me of the Ship of Theseus debate (as excellently portrayed in the Wandavision finale).

If a person is made up of a body and a mind, and you build a new body and implant the original mind, then which is the "true" person - the dead mindless body, or the living new body with original mind? Are they both the original person? Are they both something different?

Is Sara with alien DNA/healing power and OG Sara's mind any different than if OG Sara had simply been, say, bitten by a radioactive alien and developed alien powers? I don't think so. If this Sara has all the memories of OG Sara, then she's just Sara.

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

This will also mean we can take a break from Bishop and the Clone Army, which I am totally fine with. The Ava clones just seemed to exist so that we could get even more Ava even when Ava is in a totally different part of the universe and because the show hated the idea of Sara not existing with some variation of Ava for too long, and while Bishop had his moments as a bad guy, I would be happy to take a break from his schtick. I am sure that he will be back though, he might not be able to upload his whole self but he can sure download at least some of himself.

Some of that may have been because of Covid and other costs- why bring in and pay a bunch of extras when you can just use one of your regular cast members.  If they were really all in on her then instead of Bishop we would have gotten an evil Ava as the big bad. 

1 hour ago, Proteus said:

I find it very disturbing that this Sara clone just came back & reunited with Ava knowing the real Sara is dead & she's an imposter. That brings up all kinds of consent issues.

Well that's the big issue, isn't it?  Is original Sara's mind in a new body a different person or not?  It's not a simple yes or no question but I think  the show is going to fall on the side of her being the real deal.  Otherwise why frame the reunion and proposal as such a wonderful thing that blows all other Arrowverse romances out of the water (I don't remember Oliver/Felicity or Barry/Iris getting such an over the top display). 

[Screamnastics]

28 minutes ago, futurechemist said:

The philosophical debate about whether or not Sara is real reminded me of the Ship of Theseus debate (as excellently portrayed in the Wandavision finale).

If a person is made up of a body and a mind, and you build a new body and implant the original mind, then which is the "true" person - the dead mindless body, or the living new body with original mind? Are they both the original person? Are they both something different?

Is Sara with alien DNA/healing power and OG Sara's mind any different than if OG Sara had simply been, say, bitten by a radioactive alien and developed alien powers? I don't think so. If this Sara has all the memories of OG Sara, then she's just Sara.

Souls have been a big plot point both for Sara on Arrow and for Legends in general. It's not as simple as copying her memories, though I'd argue even if souls were never brought up in these shows merely copying someone's mind into another body doesn't make that new body the same person. Unless they verify this Sara has the real Sara's soul or there's a twist, the Sara we've been watching for nine years is dead.

And given the complete silence from the producers and Caity through all of this, I'm doubtful we're getting either, especially the former, because it's easy to just say, "Relax, keep watching," if there's more to it.

1 hour ago, Proteus said:

I don't buy for a second that the show is moving forward with clone/alien hybrid Sara and that's just that. The show has made a big deal about souls the past few years and them being unique. Either this is some huge ruse played by Bishop & this is the real Sara or she will be made to  be imo.

I find it very disturbing that this Sara clone just came back & reunited with Ava knowing the real Sara is dead & she's an imposter. That brings up all kinds of consent issues.

 

I'd be more bothered by this if the show wasn't regularly super casual about consent issues, particularly where Sara's concerned. The Avalance relationship, for example, has been littered with consent issues from the start but we weren't supposed to care because it was Sara's autonomy being ignored. I don't know why it's suddenly a big sticking point because it's Ava's this time.

[Proteus]

1 hour ago, Screamnastics said:

Souls have been a big plot point both for Sara on Arrow and for Legends in general. It's not as simple as copying her memories, though I'd argue even if souls were never brought up in these shows merely copying someone's mind into another body doesn't make that new body the same person. Unless they verify this Sara has the real Sara's soul or there's a twist, the Sara we've been watching for nine years is dead.

And given the complete silence from the producers and Caity through all of this, I'm doubtful we're getting either, especially the former, because it's easy to just say, "Relax, keep watching," if there's more to it.

I'd be more bothered by this if the show wasn't regularly super casual about consent issues, particularly where Sara's concerned. The Avalance relationship, for example, has been littered with consent issues from the start but we weren't supposed to care because it was Sara's autonomy being ignored. I don't know why it's suddenly a big sticking point because it's Ava's this time.

I'm not sure what you're referring to with issues of consent with Ava towards Sara.

If the show gave interviews saying wait & see or relax then they'd give it away. Their not going to do that.

A big deal was made of John restoring Sara's soul. I doubt that's not going to be brought up and everyone's just going to be like, "oh well" with the real Sara being dead.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Proteus

[Starfish35]

2 hours ago, futurechemist said:

The philosophical debate about whether or not Sara is real reminded me of the Ship of Theseus debate (as excellently portrayed in the Wandavision finale).

If a person is made up of a body and a mind, and you build a new body and implant the original mind, then which is the "true" person - the dead mindless body, or the living new body with original mind? Are they both the original person? Are they both something different?

Is Sara with alien DNA/healing power and OG Sara's mind any different than if OG Sara had simply been, say, bitten by a radioactive alien and developed alien powers? I don't think so. If this Sara has all the memories of OG Sara, then she's just Sara.

I think in the world of DC’s Arrowverse, it’s been pretty clear that a person has a “soul” that is separate from simply their body and their memories.  Sara and Oliver had to have their souls reunited with their bodies after being resurrected in the Lazarus Pits.  The use of the “soul coins” last season was a plot point.   So I think it’s valid to ask whether or not this is the Original!Sara’s soul in the new clone body, or if it’s a new soul with a copy of Sara’s memories.  

Whether or not the show will address this is another question.  There was a time when I would have assumed they would, but I’ve lost quite a bit of faith in the writers over the last couple of seasons, especially with anything in regards to Sara.

There is still a part of me, however, that wonders whether they might eventually reveal that Original!Sara is actually still alive.  But I’m not holding my breath on that either.

[Sakura12]

Sara's now a clone and half alien, how is she the same person? Just because of the memories. So if Bishop took Sara's memories and put it in one of his clone bodies or one of the Ava's. would we still say that's Sara? Or is it only acceptable because she's a body that still looks like her? Bishop was talking about this version and making a version that's more agreeable, meaning he's changing things about her and we don't know if he didn't add slight changes to her personality. Which would make her a different person. And with the soul, does the alien have a soul, does Sara have 2 souls now? 

Having the other characters say she's the same Sara doesn't make it so. They took an amazing character that I rooted for because of all the things she went through and survived and killed her off screen and replaced her with a clone so she can be the same her girlfriend.  And I guess people will find that cute but as a Sara fan for the past 8 years I don't. But I guess that goes to show how unimportant Sara is to an indiviual character on this show now, she doesn't matter to people. She only matters as Ava's girlfriend.

The only thing I liked about this so called "Sara storyline" (that still had to include Ava) was they let Mick actually care about Sara as Sara and not as Ava's girlfriend which the rest of the team seems to think of Sara as. Until this episode when Behrad suddenly remembered he was Sara's friend  We've seen Nate and Behrad's friendship develop but because Sara's supposed to be glued to Ava we never saw any development with Sara and Behrad. And are just supposed to go with he replaced OG Zari. 

Now that "Sara's" back on the ship, lets see how much interaction she has with the other characters, outside group interactions. Will she talk to Spooner again or will that be like her one scene with Behrad in the first episode of last season. Somehow they will be friends but we will never see them talk to each other like that ever again. Sara will go back to being Ava's shadow. 

[tv echo]

If a Sara clone is the same as the original Sara, then Sara could've been just as happy marrying any one of the many Ava clones running around on that planet. Again, I ask, if the physical body is just a vehicle for housing one's memories and soul, does every Ava clone have the same soul, or different souls, or no soul at all? And what happened to the original human Ava (from whom the Ava clone was made) and her soul?

And what does that do to the concept of "soul mates," which, I presume, Sara and Ava are supposed to be.

Edited June 22, 2021 by tv echo

[blackwing]

I am kind of surprised they brought Sara back to the team so quickly.  I was expecting a season long separation, the more to spotlight Ava and her crying and watching that video over and over again.   I was convinced Kayla had left and they'd be stuck on that planet, but this time at least she would have Mick and the multitude of Ava clones for company.

So is that it for Bishop?  His consciousness was in the computer, he couldn't move it to a new body before the machine was destroyed?  I'll be happy if we don't have to see him and his singsonging ever again.

Isn't Kayla supposed to be Gary's fiance?  At least that's what Gary said the first time we saw them.  How come he didn't reference this at all when it was obvious that Mick and Kayla had gotten together?  I get that he probably doesn't care, but it seemed odd to me that he acted like he didn't even know Kayla.  Especially after he and Sara had presumed she died after Sara blew her out of the airlock, Aliens-style.

It was so great to see Maisie Richardson-Sellers.  Were those scenes re-used footage from the original episode (loved the fourth wall of the characters calling it the "finale") or did she shoot new scenes?  I miss Charlie, and I miss Amaya more.  I'd trade back both Astra and Spooner for either one of them.

On 6/20/2021 at 9:54 PM, DanaK said:

I'm glad Sara is finally reunited with the team. It can suck having a cast member stuck and isolated away from the others for several episodes

On 6/20/2021 at 10:31 PM, DanaK said:

I was one of those and it was on my mind as one of several examples when I made the comment, but like you, I understand the reasons they did it. I’m not sure I understand the reason here

I agree... glad Sara is back.  It seems obvious to me the only reason to separate her from the team is to shift the focus onto Ava.  Frankly I'm kind of surprised the show didn't bring two or three of the Ava clones home with them.

22 hours ago, lurker22 said:

At least it seems like she has some alien powers, so Caity might get to have the superpowers she always wanted after all. Back in S3 when the Legends went to save Zari 1.0, the Argus drones recognized Sara as a metahuman. So maybe that's because of clone!Sara's alien abilities (regenerative powers and more).

I am not sure if they would have even contemplated giving her regeneration powers three seasons later back then to the point where they would call her metahuman.  I thought she was metahuman because of some side effect of the Lazarus Pit... maybe it gave her enhanced reflexes or something.  DC's version of Black Widow.

[Starfish35]

2 hours ago, tv echo said:

Again, I ask, if the physical body is just a vehicle for housing one's memories and soul, does every Ava clone have the same soul, or different souls, or no soul at all? And what happened to the original human Ava (from whom the Ava clone was made) and her soul?

I would think that each Ava clone would have a separate soul.  Like the clones in Star Wars - they may all have been clones of one man, but each one was its own character with its own personality.  As for what happened to the original Ava template? 🤷🏻‍♀️ Good question.

2 hours ago, tv echo said:

And what does that do to the concept of "soul mates," which, I presume, Sara and Ava are supposed to be.

Have they ever actually used the term “soulmates” in the Arrowverse? Other than for Kendra and whatsisname?  Honest question.  I can’t remember.  It’s an interesting question, but I’d never actually considered Sara and Ava to be soulmates, but maybe that’s just because I don’t like the pairing. 

[lurker22]

2 hours ago, tv echo said:

And what happened to the original human Ava (from whom the Ava clone was made) and her soul?

I thought the Ava clone was a composite of multiple DNA in order to create the perfect woman (don't think Bishop did a good job there, but we know he has been trial and error-ing a lot). So there is no human "Ava".

And Bishop's plan was to fill a planet with thousands or millions of Sara clones. Are we supposed to have millions of Sara souls? Did Bishop create these souls along with the bodies?

[Starfish35]

For purposes of what a soul is in this particular universe, I’m going to assume a “soul” is “created” when a person is born.  So a clone’s “soul” would be created when they are….um…”activated”? For lack of a better word?

We know, from what happened with Sara and Oliver and the Lazarus Pits, that a dead body won’t have a soul.  And a body can also be “alive” and perform basic functions but not have a soul, such as Sara’s body after it was put in the Lazarus Pit but before Constantine did the ritual to bring her soul back.  

So whether the clone body Sara’s in (assuming again that this IS the original Sara) has/had its own soul, I think would depend on whether it had ever been “activated” before Sara’s soul was put in it, or whether it was basically the equivalent of Sara’s resurrected body before her soul was put back in it - a mindless shell.  

🤷🏻‍♀️ This is just my thoughts on it.  Not saying it’s necessarily the correct interpretation. 😁

16 minutes ago, lurker22 said:

I thought the Ava clone was a composite of multiple DNA in order to create the perfect woman (don't think Bishop did a good job there, but we know he has been trial and error-ing a lot). So there is no human "Ava".

Oh that could be. 

Edited June 22, 2021 by Starfish35

[Cthulhudrew]

I never noticed that Nick Zano does look a bit like Kurt Russell.

What's weird is that Sarah looked like she was only just having that memory of the timeline changing due to the present-day Legends botched rescue scheme (and the "glitch" on the video seemed to confirm that it was a "new" change to the timeline), but in the finale last season we actually saw Sarah turn and look at something behind her (Behrad?) which suggests that this was always the actual timeline.

(Not to mention Ava's previously unexplained/out of character sloppy drunkenness, which we have a rationale for now.)

Edited June 23, 2021 by Cthulhudrew

[legaleagle53]

37 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I never noticed that Nick Zano does look a bit like Kurt Russell.

What's weird is that Sarah looked like she was only just having that memory of the timeline changing due to the present-day Legends botched rescue scheme (and the "glitch" on the video seemed to confirm that it was a "new" change to the timeline), but in the finale last season we actually saw Sarah turn and look at something behind her (Behrad?) which suggests that this was always the actual timeline.

(Not to mention Ava's previously unexplained/out of character sloppy drunkenness, which we have a rationale for now.)

I wondered how Sara was able to sense that "those idiots" (as she affectionately called them) were back in 1977 London trying to prevent her from being taken in the first place.

As for Ava's "out of character" drunkenness? We've seen that before. I forget which episode it was in, but the gang was in a 1940s-era nightclub, and drunk Ava had decided to create a distraction by doing an impromptu karaoke performance. The problem was that while Ava thought she was killing it onstage, the hilarious reality was that she was gadawful. As one fleeing patron put it, "It's the most horrible thing I've ever seen -- and I was there when the Hindenburg went down!"

Edited June 23, 2021 by legaleagle53

[7kstar]

On 6/21/2021 at 9:06 AM, tv echo said:

I also feel uncomfortable that Mick, Sara and Gary left Kayla behind on that planet after she had returned to rescue them and also defended them. They should have at least circled around to try to find her. If they had done that and showed at least some effort had been made to find Kayla before giving up, it would've been better than them just flying out right away. It's like the only ones who matter are the Waverider crew. That abandonment will no doubt come back to bite them later.

I thought it sucked that they didn't at least attempt to find her.  Afterall, she came back and saved them.  Hopefully she will show up again as I liked her with Mick.

Garry is just so annoying.  I could care less if he disappeared for good.

Some really nice moments with Mick and Sara.  Not my favorite season, but it does have it moments.  I thought this ep was a stronger one for this season.

[Sakura12]

Bishop wanted to make a bunch of Sara clones with I'm assuming a copy if Sara's memories. So if we go with it's only the memories that make a person, hundreds of clones with Sara's memories would be her and any one of them can marry Ava. 

Half Alien Sara was making a human version of herself and was going leave herself on the planet. Would we have had 2 Sara's then? Which one would be her? Would human Sara have to kill half Alien Sara to get her soul?

[tennisgurl]

A lot of these questions about the nature of clone Sara and if she has the same soul as human Sara are really interesting. Did her soul and the essence of who she is just move from one physical vessel to the next or did the Sara we have always known basically die and was replaced by this other Sara, who has a different soul but the same memories and personality? I guess that would mean that she is still as much a person as Sara is, just she is a different person, but I think it is more likely that her soul moved from one body to the next. Its all actually really interesting stuff, its a question that has been pondered in a lot of speculative fiction when it comes to things like clones, AI, transhumanism, all that good stuff, really makes you think about the nature of existence and the physical body versus the ethereal soul and what makes you the person that you are...

Of course I am sure that this will all get glossed over to focus on stupid antics and shipper pandering as Ava and Sara plan for the "clone wedding" with all of those thoughts about Sara's nature conveniently forgotten about in favor of dull scenes of wedding planning while Ava becomes a massive bridezilla and everyone singing her praises. 

[appositival]

Since Spooner has telepathy with 'aliens' does that mean she will now be able to communicate with Sara? I know this makes no sense at all, but this isn't a show that strives for plausibility.

[TwistedandBored]

In a way, Sara is dead. We just have a hybrid clone with her memory. They can say this is Sara but it is not really her. I also miss original original Zari. They created  Zari 2.0 only to make her an influencer and Constantine's girlfriend which sucks. I guess Zari 1.0 role now belongs to Ava. All in all, this season feels off to me and I hate the alien storyline. 

[Lantern7]

For me, Sara is Sara. Yeah, the whole "half-alien" thing does grate because it empowered a character that didn't need to be powered up (and it was the idea of Man Bun Vandal Savage), but I don't think it cheapens Sara that much. I don't consider myself that naive, but I'm trying to be optimistic. Granted, a lot of Arrowverse shows are declining so maybe I shouldn't get my hopes up. My worst case scenario is Bishop finding a way to possess Sara's upgraded clone body, but the that would give us Caiity Lotz performing as an insufferable one-dimensional villain . . . and that could be fun.

Gotta love how Ava caught onto future versions of her team trying to meddle and immediately told them to knock it off. The Legends can be crafty, but they tend to get sloppy.

Wait, so John can't do magic? Was that from "The Satanist's Apprentice"?

I know Avalance can sour some folks because of Ava . . . but there's the possibility of a wedding episode. And the last time Legends attended a wedding, everyone almost got killed by Nazi versions of Green Arrow and Supergirl. I don't know if that could be topped, but I'd like to see it happen.

[scarynikki12]

2 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Wait, so John can't do magic? Was that from "The Satanist's Apprentice"?

When Astra sang the Disney song to depower Crowley it also depowered Con. He’s starting from scratch with his magic.

[Sakura12]

If we ignore the soul aspect. If I learned anything from crime shows, DNA matters, that's how criminal are caught, they can find our ancestors from it and find hereditary diseases. 

Sara now has cloned DNA mixed with Alien DNA. If she is ever investigated for her crimes as an assassin or a legend, her DNA won't match original Sara. Would she then be considered a different person? 

The Alien DNA changed her genetics enough to give her regeneration abilities. Would her genetics still match her parents? How much is she an Alien now over a human? 

[diebartdie]

Sara is Sara, Mick said as much. Y'all are acting like this big, dumb, lovable show is suddenly NOT dumb? Like it suddenly has well thought out, intricate plot line that make sense? Come ON, this is THE LEGENDS and it is dumb and Beebo be praised for it! Sara is Sara, just love her and move on with the story.

[benteen]

This show continues to have a lot of heart, which is one of the reasons I enjoy it so much.  Really good episode and I'm glad Sara is back with the team.  Strong episode for Sara and Caity Loiz.

Her reunion with Mick was a highlight.  She and Spooner had a strong scene together and even her moments with Behard were strong.  Why is it that Sara has more chemistry with these characters then with Ava?  Sara's brief reunion with everyone worked better.

I'm glad Ava's disastrous captaincy is over and the real captain has returned.  Hell, Nate's brief stint as acting captain worked more.  Liked meeting Nate Constantine as well.

[bettername2come]

I love how Sara gives zero fucks about dying and being a clone. "I die about once a year and my girlfriend's a clone." I mean, sure, she was upset at not being fully human anymore, but the clone part was fine. 

Nate is a good bro and I like how he stepped up to reluctantly be captain in the absence of Sara and Ava. I also liked how happy Zari was to see AlterNate dressed as Constantine. Should've gotten him in a cowboy hat for the Zari love interest trifecta. 

Cute proposal. I'm so happy the team's back together. I love a good Legends celebration. 

[SaraLanceArrow]

I re watched this episode and I am certain, the writers were pretty clear they killed Sara and replaced her with a clone. The most obvious is the fact that Bishop says: the real Sara Lance is dead. The other one is that Sara wanted to print herself another body, meaning she was no longer a being with a soul, but a clone that can be replicated over and over like Bishop. Also the early version of Bishop was definitely a different personality, and was obvious the later clone versions were sociopaths i.e lacked a soul.

Then we have the whole canon about dying and getting back to life and how the soul plays a part in this. And then we also have Ava's story. She is the 13'th Ava clone that Rip used and she had fake memories to be a real person. This just sounds so much like Sara's story now: she can be reprinted, and what makes her who she is are the memories that are transferred from her old dead body.

Also they never really make it canon that we have the same Sara in a different body, because they do not explore this story at all. It is just a copy of Sara, that everybody accepts, and nothing suggests it is otherwise. Yes she looks the same, talks the same, feels the same but that is because she is a copy. Still the original is dead. And of course this whole argument about real and copy Sara would have never existed if they had never introduced the concept of the soul, but they did and now we can't just ignore it.

[Jack Shaftoe]

So, let me get this straight - Gary kidnapped Sara and this led to her getting killed but it's fine because he helped rescue her clone (who is also half-alien which makes no sense, by the way)? Could Gary be any more of a writer's pet? People complain about Ava a lot and sure, there is too much shilling about how awesome she is (Gary again is the biggest offender) but she is not actually malicious or too stupid to live the way Gary is in half of his appearances. Gary is like a sitcom character - nothing he does is enough to make the Legends do what they should have done years ago - tell him to get lost. He is funny (supposedly), so he gets a get out of jail free card. Again and again. He gets to be Ava's second in command at the Time Bureau while we are told and shown repeatedly how much she is a stickler for the rules. But she tolerates this manchild moron because... he is funny! Constantine, the ultimate lone wolf with very little patience for idiots, tolerates him because... I don't know, he just does. And so on and so forth.

Again, this might work in a sitcom but despite all the craziness and absurdist humor it has, LoT is not a sitcom, its characters shouldn't behave like they know Gary's endless screw-ups are never going to cause serious problems or forgive him immediately when, surprise, surprise, this is exactly what happens. The writers eventually realized that Mona didn't work, I thought they had learned their lesson and would stop using Gary for anything other than short appearances where he is just comic relief. But no, they had to make him more important than ever and more of a Karma Houdini than ever. I guess it's true that every show that is not only procedural "case of the week" type of show falls apart in season 6 at the very latest. LoT season 6 has a bloated cast, too much focus on Ava (and I say this as someone who likes her), romantic relationships following literally every cliche in the book (why was Sara intending to propose to Ava at a time when the latter was basically blackout drunk anyway? Is that what the writers consider romantic?) and a main villain who is Vandal Savage-level of boring. The show still has fun moments but the magic is mostly gone for me. The writers are orders of magnitude worse at writing romance than friendships and this is the most romance-heavy season by far.