S04.E10: The Wilderness

[EllaWycliffe]

4 minutes ago, MichaelaRae said:

June is never gonna be B or C plot, not while this is the Elizabeth Moss show.

Yeah, I mean I like Janine too but the show really isn't going to focus on her. 

[jackjill89]

1 hour ago, MichaelaRae said:

June is never gonna be B or C plot, not while this is the Elizabeth Moss show.

Then can they at least stop on the close-ups of the June is pissed as hell face? I'm so tired of it. It was great the first few times when it was used more sparingly and for great effect, but now it seems like every scene ends with June making her pissed as hell face. We get it, show runners, June is a badass.

Also -- regarding not asking for Janine -- does June know she's alive? I don't remember if she was told.

[chaifan]

4 minutes ago, jackjill89 said:

Also -- regarding not asking for Janine -- does June know she's alive? I don't remember if she was told.

Yes, June knows Janine is alive.  In her first call with Lawrence he commented on it.  Made some crack about Janine being with Lydia. 

 

[watch2much]

I think June will be going back to Gilead as a freedom fighter and to get Hannah.  that would be the only interesting direction this could take.  being a fugitive in Canada would be a boring plot line.

as for Serena, I hope they take the kid away from her.

[TOL]

On 6/16/2021 at 9:03 AM, Trillian said:

When Fred kept calling Nick “son”, I was so expecting (and rather hoping that) he would reply “don’t call me son. I’m an officer and a lawyer and you’re under arrest you son of a bitch.”

YES!  Once Fred said it more than a few times I felt Nick would toss some sort of Sorkin-esque  line at him

 

[Calibabydolly]

When the ring and the finger fell out of the envelope....I wasn't sure that was a FINGER for a split second! I almost expected June to chop off his you know what....weapon he used against her will so many times!? (but it actually may have been smaller then his finger) Ha!

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, TOL said:

YES!  Once Fred said it more than a few times I felt Nick would toss some sort of Sorkin-esque  line at him

 

Well, he did knock him to the ground, which was lovely.

Also, this time I loved that June sauntered past Fred to really kiss Nick.  It worked so well after her attempt to resolve things in that little visit to Fred.  Fred was still deluded that June actually enjoyed their private times, and desired him.  He finally saw, right before his death, what a complete fool he always was.  

About that scene, from the showrunner:

Quote

 

The other scene that really stood out to me early on was the first scene between June and Fred. Why do you think June went to see him? Was she looking for an apology?

No. First, we did a lot of research with our partners at the UN and UNHCR, and refugee workers and all that stuff, to kind of see what this scene would be like, and what would be the stuff that was affecting June. I think June went to see Fred to be able to let him go. That's why she went. "I'm gonna let him go. I'm going to be a good mother. I'm not going to let him control my life anymore." But when she got there, and especially when he apologized - we had a conversation with the refugees, and [they said] that the worst moment was when their abuser apologized. When they realized their abuser knew all along it was wrong from the very beginning. So that's the moment where June decides he should not be on the earth anymore.

 

It's from the interview in the media and spoiler thread.

June really was trying to see if she could let her hatred for Fred go...

[dmc]

18 hours ago, Bluesky said:

I thought they did a good job as showing Tuello as a bureaucrat not a decision maker.  Also, was he Canadian?

I don’t like the Nick character. He could not be in that trusted position without a handmaid.   They just don’t allow it.  

Tuello is an American working for US intelligence in Canada.  We don't have a backstory or flashback on him so how he got there or works in intelligence...who knows. 

 

I am also not sure the deal the US has with the Canadian government because it's never specified and this is the first time he mentioned a boss.

 

So my guess is he comes up with the deals and maybe goes to his boss for an okay.

But that could be totally wrong, maybe his boss discusses with him a course and then he tries to make it happen. 

But in this case, its clear the June deal was signed off on by his superior.  And that makes it possible that the Fred deal was too

 

 

 

[Clawdel]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

So that's the moment where June decides he should not be on the earth anymore.

I got chills when she was in the car with Luke afterwards and said, "I'm going to put him on the wall." in a calm, cold, matter of fact voice. And the end with Fred's wedding ring falling out onto the table with the satisfying plop! of his severed finger made my week. 

[mamadrama]

FWIW I never said that I thought the show would focus on Janine, I said I'd "love it if they did." As in my fan fiction fantasy.

I'm no dummy, I realize that this is the EM Show...

[EllaWycliffe]

I mean, in fanfiction, I'd cross this show with Downton Abbey :)

[Umbelina]

I don't think Serena has anything left to offer, and I kind of doubt the will prosecute her for assisting in June's rapes.

So, will she ask for asylum for her and her child?  Probably.  Will she get it?  Hmmm, that could go either way.

[EllaWycliffe]

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

So, will she ask for asylum for her and her child?  Probably.  Will she get it?  Hmmm, that could go either way.

I don't think so. There's a good argument to be made that she was coerced by Fred and he's dead and can no longer protest. The crimes she committed against June are awful but none would be a death sentence under US law - she didn't personally kidnap Hannah, she did kidnap Nicole but gave her back and assisted in her escape. In Canada she'd go to prison. If they send her back to Gilead, she'll be tortured or killed. Morally, if they know its a death sentence or cruel and unusual punishment, they're not going to give her to Gilead unless there's a good trade offered. 

[chocolatine]

3 hours ago, watch2much said:

I think June will be going back to Gilead as a freedom fighter and to get Hannah.

That's how I interpreted the "I just want five minutes with [Nicole] and then I'll go" scene at the end. She wanted one last cuddle with her baby* before she went back. Instead of trying to be a family with Luke and Nicole, she'd rather go back and do to more commanders what she did to Fred; she didn't wash his blood off of her because she likes what it symbolizes. Luke understood that immediately when he saw her, which is why he slid down the wall with the mournful look on his face.

*Nicole still being a baby works with the show's timeline. She was two or three months old when Emily took her into Canada. Fred and Serena followed a month or two later, Serena got pregnant on the way, and now seems to be six or seven months along. So Nicole is about ten to twelve months old now, not quite toddler age. It just seems to us like more time has passed because there wasn't a new season last year due to the pandemic.

[Pepper the Cat]

I wish they had shown Fred on the wall longer. That shot was way too quick.

[Umbelina]

45 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

I don't think so. There's a good argument to be made that she was coerced by Fred and he's dead and can no longer protest. The crimes she committed against June are awful but none would be a death sentence under US law - she didn't personally kidnap Hannah, she did kidnap Nicole but gave her back and assisted in her escape. In Canada she'd go to prison. If they send her back to Gilead, she'll be tortured or killed. Morally, if they know its a death sentence or cruel and unusual punishment, they're not going to give her to Gilead unless there's a good trade offered. 

Agree.

Gilead MAY trade for her, to keep her baby, or to shut her up, keep her from writing that book.

Also there is the matter of pride, she's been wearing the blue lately, and liked that applause, will she lower herself to admit she'd be in danger in Gilead?  (All the handmaids/Martha's had to.)  Also, it might depend on that book she's writing to some extent as well.  

That interview with the show runners said that

Spoiler

he pictures June and Serena as major enemies next season, so...

38 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

That's how I interpreted the "I just want five minutes with [Nicole] and then I'll go" scene at the end. She wanted one last cuddle with her baby* before she went back. Instead of trying to be a family with Luke and Nicole, she'd rather go back and do to more commanders what she did to Fred; she didn't wash his blood off of her because she likes what it symbolizes. Luke understood that immediately when he saw her, which is why he slid down the wall with the mournful look on his face.

*Nicole still being a baby works with the show's timeline. She was two or three months old when Emily took her into Canada. Fred and Serena followed a month or two later, Serena got pregnant on the way, and now seems to be six or seven months along. So Nicole is about ten to twelve months old now, not quite toddler age. It just seems to us like more time has passed because there wasn't a new season last year due to the pandemic.

They only had a minute together if that, June obviously not quite herself after her night, and Luke understandably shocked and discombobulated.  It all could change.  (again, hints in that showrunner's questions and answers EW article.)

32 minutes ago, Pepper the Cat said:

I wish they had shown Fred on the wall longer. That shot was way too quick.

Let's see if this works

ETA, yay, it worked.  From the angle of that sack on his head (another Gilead touch) it looks like his neck was broken too.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Umbelina

[BrindaWalsh]

Once again, somebody gave the writers room a copy of Daughter's of Eve.  I think they had a similar revenge scene in the woods, although not ending in death because it was a tween/teen novel afterall.  

I get why the went the route they did in terms of the revenge killing of Fred, but I kind of rolled my eyes a bit.  I actually thought, when June and Fred were having a drink, that she was going to slip him some of the poison that she used earlier in the season - dump it into the whole bottle to kill him the next time he goes to have a drink.  I was ridiculously tense during that scene.  Instead I found myself rolling my eyes at June somehow manufacturing this entire thing in 24 hours, right down to her kissing Nick in the woods.  Not because I don't think Fred deserves it.  But because I don't know that I buy that June has that much influence or that her alliances are that strong. 

As for the final scene with Luke, we know from The Testaments that: 

Spoiler

June becomes a full blown freedom fighter/terrorist depending on your POV

So while we didn't have an explicit conversation where Luke asks June to take a more peaceful, play by the rules route and she instead decides that her commitment is 100% to revenge and hurting Gilead, and will sacrifice everything else to do so, I think that's what they were getting at.    But my issue with this is that Luke is choosing the life that June delivered to him - NOT one he chose or created for himself.  Let's not forget that he's raising the child that she insists was born out of love with another man.  Moira has come out and said that she wouldn't have chosen that life, that she did so out of guilt.  Did Luke really have any choices there about raising Nicole?  On paper yes, in reality, not so much.  So why does June get to decide to abandon her role as Nicole's mother, when Luke isn't her father and never had a choice to become one to Nicole?  Because he got out and she didn't?  

I don't know if I'm explaining myself well, and again, given what I know about the future of June, at least as far as the Testaments go, this falls right in line with what happens down the line.  But the steps for June to get her justice, do it her way, make her point, whatever it may be, just creates more victims along the way.  

Can somebody please explain Lawrence to me?  I just. don't. get. him.

[Umbelina]

18 minutes ago, BrindaWalsh said:

Can somebody please explain Lawrence to me?  I just. don't. get. him.

Try the EW article, it does the best job I've seen so far.  (spoiler thread and media thread.)

Basically, both he and Nick work within Gilead, carefully, even when supporting June, for different reasons.

18 minutes ago, BrindaWalsh said:

So while we didn't have an explicit conversation where Luke asks June to take a more peaceful, play by the rules route and she instead decides that her commitment is 100% to revenge and hurting Gilead, and will sacrifice everything else to do so, I think that's what they were getting at.    But my issue with this is that Luke is choosing the life that June delivered to him - NOT one he chose or created for himself.  Let's not forget that he's raising the child that she insists was born out of love with another man.  Moira has come out and said that she wouldn't have chosen that life, that she did so out of guilt.  Did Luke really have any choices there about raising Nicole?  On paper yes, in reality, not so much.  So why does June get to decide to abandon her role as Nicole's mother, when Luke isn't her father and never had a choice to become one to Nicole?  Because he got out and she didn't?  

I don't know if I'm explaining myself well, and again, given what I know about the future of June, at least as far as the Testaments go, this falls right in line with what happens down the line.  But the steps for June to get her justice, do it her way, make her point, whatever it may be, just creates more victims along the way.  

We don't know what Luke will do after he has a moment to come down from the shock of seeing June bloody and holding their child.  Since you've read Testaments, you already know that

Spoiler

Nicole doesn't stay with him, and it's implied Luke does join the fight.

I don't think killing Fred is making June create more victims, other than those who deserve to die, the many commanders she's killed now, for example.

She's saved 86 kids, 9 Martha's, and 22 Mayday people so far, that's a pretty big number, if we stretch the idea of "saved" we can include Moira, who had given up until June's last pep talk reminding Moira of who she is, and inspiring her to escape, and of course Emily, who took her place and Emily to make it to Canada.  She's been personally responsible for getting at least 117 people out of Gilead.

Anyone dying around fighting for the freedom of Gilead or it's imprisoned/trapped citizens isn't dying because of June.  They are dying fighting for what matters to them. 

For example, when June ran to draw fire and allow that plane to escape?  She knew she would probably die.  What she DID NOT KNOW was that a small group of handmaids did the same thing, gave up their chance to get on the plane, and followed June.  As far as the escape from that bus to the breeding farm?  They wanted that.  Any one of them could have stayed in the van, or broken Lydia's neck.  They didn't.  They ran.  THEIR CHOICE.  Sadly some were hit by that train.

Same thing with the particulation/salvaging of Fred.  June has no power to MAKE any of the refugees do that.  THEY made the choice, and I hope it helps them to know at least one son of a bitch from Gilead paid for what he's done.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Umbelina

[mamadrama]

2 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

I mean, in fanfiction, I'd cross this show with Downton Abbey :)

I'm hoping for the day when it crosses with The Village and everyone in Gilead learns that the outside world is carrying on as normal, healthy birthrates and all, and that they've really just been specimens in a social experiment this whole time. 

[Anosmia]

I kind of loved the particicution, although it also would’ve pleased me to see Fred punished by the Gileadean regime.

June wanted Fred to be as terrified as she was when she and Luke were caught during their escape to Canada and Hannah was ripped away from her. Well, she got her wish. That was almost like a horror movie when he was being hunted by a nearly feral pack of rage-fueled women who were victims of the machinery he created. 

 

[The Mighty Peanut]

TL;DR Luke been thru some shit.

I actually have a lot of empathy for Luke. First off, he has survivor's guilt and each day he has to face the fact that his efforts to rescue his wife are stagnant and he is, in an ironic sort of way, impotent. Yet, he doesn't stop because he also blames himself for not taking June seriously enough when shit started to get real.

Then Emily shows up and leaves him with an infant who is both a piece of his wife and (he then thought) a product of rape, which is further complicated when he gets the tape from June that essentially says she loves Nichole's dad and Luke should move on.

Then angels flight happens and neither his wife or daughter are on the plane but some of her friends are (again); he had to be silently wishing he could trade one of June's friends for his own family, anyone would.

Which finally brings us to now, he was just beginning to be at peace with June's insistence on remaining in Gilead when he hears she was captured and most likely would be killed if she hadn't already.

Then suddenly June is on a boat without Hannah and she is of course deeply traumatized and without any ill intent she acts very confusing--she wants him to be hands off until she initiates sex that feels more like making a point than intimacy. When they aren't in bed the normal every day couple stuff like sipping lattes and watching Netflix seem trite, so he doesn't have the lover OR friend he once had in June.

Then the testimony happens and he hears intimate horrific sexual details about his wife's intercourse with three other men (Fred, Nick, Lawrence), so there's that image in his head now, and he pours all of his hate into Fred who is promptly let off the hook. Still, having his wife back means things are looking up and he tries to have gratitude, which is then destroyed when a bloody June shows up after brutally murdering Fred under questionable legal circumstances (whose land were they on??). 

No, it's not rape and torture. It's not being branded, ear tagged, and tazed until you agree to comply to weird sex stuff. But it is definitely a lot.

Edited June 18, 2021 by The Mighty Peanut

[SourK]

2 hours ago, BrindaWalsh said:

I actually thought, when June and Fred were having a drink, that she was going to slip him some of the poison that she used earlier in the season - dump it into the whole bottle to kill him the next time he goes to have a drink. 

Same. The scene had a menacing mood, and I totally expected her to be like, "I don't care what happens to me -- I just need to kill Fred." I guess it would have created a problem for the narrative if she'd murdered him in his hotel, but we could have arrived at the same point where Luke is like, "No, that's too far for me."

2 hours ago, BrindaWalsh said:

But my issue with this is that Luke is choosing the life that June delivered to him - NOT one he chose or created for himself... 

I don't know if I'm explaining myself well, and again, given what I know about the future of June, at least as far as the Testaments go, this falls right in line with what happens down the line.  But the steps for June to get her justice, do it her way, make her point, whatever it may be, just creates more victims along the way.

She's kind of being a deadbeat. She doesn't seem to love Luke anymore or want to be in a relationship with him -- at least not as much as she wants to make out with Nick before they kill people -- and it sounds like she's expecting him to take 100% responsibility for raising the child she had in a different relationship. But maybe that's not really what she means and the living situation next season will be different than we think.

2 hours ago, BrindaWalsh said:

 Can somebody please explain Lawrence to me?  I just. don't. get. him.

I think maybe he's supposed to be a loveable scoundrel? Or some kind of warped mentor figure? IDK -- I don't get it either.

[Umbelina]

34 minutes ago, The Mighty Peanut said:

TL;DR Luke been thru some shit.

I actually have a lot of empathy for Luke. First off, he has survivor's guilt and each day he has to face the fact that his efforts to rescue his wife are stagnant and he is, in an ironic sort of way, impotent. Yet, he doesn't stop because he also blames himself for not taking June seriously enough when shit started to get real.

Then Emily shows up and leaves him with an infant who is both a piece of his wife and (he then thought) a product of rape, which is further complicated when he gets the tape from June that essentially says she loves Nichole's dad and Luke should move on.

Then angels flight happens and neither his wife or daughter are on the plane but some of her friends are (again); he had to be silently wishing he could trade one of June's friends for his own family, anyone would.

Which finally brings us to now, he was just beginning to be at peace with June's insistence on remaining in Gilead when he hears she was captured and most likely would be killed if she hadn't already.

Then suddenly June is on a boat without Hannah and she is of course deeply traumatized and without any ill intent she acts very confusing--she wants him to be hands off until she initiates sex that feels more like making a point than intimacy. When they aren't in bed the normal every day couple stuff like sipping lattes and watching Netflix seem trite, so he doesn't have the lover OR friend he once had in June.

Then the testimony happens and he hears intimate horrific sexual details about his wife's intercourse with two men, so there's that image in his head now, and he pours all of his hate into Fred who is promptly let off the hook. Still, having his wife back means things are looking up and he tries to have gratitude, which is then destroyed when a bloody June shows up after murdering Fred under questionable legal circumstances (whose land were they on??). 

No, it's not rape and torture. It's not being branded, ear tagged, and tazed until you agree to comply to weird sex stuff. But it is definitely a lot.

Very nice words about Luke.  

For the most part, I've liked him very much this season.  I don't think we (or June) are done with him yet though.  She said how much she wants to be with him and with Nicole, when she was crying to Emily, so the desire IS there.  I think it might help them greatly if Emily had a heart to heart with Luke.  

Maybe she will.

[Bannon]

12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I don't think Serena has anything left to offer, and I kind of doubt the will prosecute her for assisting in June's rapes.

So, will she ask for asylum for her and her child?  Probably.  Will she get it?  Hmmm, that could go either way.

So what was done to Rita is what? A jaywalking misdemeanor? ....(Monty Python voice from "Life of Brian") ...."Now, now, now, let's not waste time arguing about who enslaved and beat who...let bygones be bygones!"

[Bannon]

Lawrence is a genius and supreme egotist. Werner Von Braun, except his genius lies in economics and logistics, instead of rocketry. He knows Gilead's ideology is completely evil bullsh*t, but the regime gives him power to employ his genius, kisses his ass (and there isn't anything he loves more, now that his wife is dead, than other powerful people recognizing how indispensable his intellect is), while he lives in extreme affluence. The love for his wife was his only avenue to decency, and she's gone. The interesting thing about him is whether his memory of his wife, and his genuine love for her, is strong enough to compel him to eventually completely betray Gilead. Absent that possibility, Lawrence is a very nasty piece of work. In some respects he's worse than Waterford, because unlike Waterford, he's not so stupid and dishonest with himself to buy into the evil nonsense that Gilead is peddling.

[EllaWycliffe]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

So what was done to Rita is what? A jaywalking misdemeanor?

Of course not but....

If Serena had died as part of Gilead's rise, would Rita never be a Martha? Is it Serena's direct fault that Rita was enslaved?

I'll take an unpopular opinion stance. It was not until the end of season two that it was clear that Rita wasn't a big Gilead supporter. She seemed to be on board with the whole business. She was even participating in June's enslavement - not harshly and not directly. In some respect, Rita's whole "we were never friends" with Serena is a bit of a rewrite of history. 

[anna0852]

10 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Of course not but....

If Serena had died as part of Gilead's rise, would Rita never be a Martha? Is it Serena's direct fault that Rita was enslaved?

I'll take an unpopular opinion stance. It was not until the end of season two that it was clear that Rita wasn't a big Gilead supporter. She seemed to be on board with the whole business. She was even participating in June's enslavement - not harshly and not directly. In some respect, Rita's whole "we were never friends" with Serena is a bit of a rewrite of history. 

I don't think it's that unpopular of an opinion. 

Rita is religious. And probably didn't take issue with abortion, adultery, etc being condemned as sins. My guess would be that she was like Luke: not reacting to Gilead until she was directly affected. And we still don't know how Martha's are trained or potentially brainwashed the way the Aunts try to do with the Handmaids. Who knows what she was told or led to believe? 

 

[lucindabelle]

I feel like this episode confirmed my initial impression of Lawrence: he is fronting as a baddy. His going along to get along reminds me of Czech resistance. Even his seeming cruelty to Janine turned out- not to be, and he’s no doubt clever enough to know that.

his face on the phone wirh June was tormented. No. ANGUISHED.

and his “they’ve got us over a barrel” was hysterically funny. He knew exactly what was coming.

the other thing is that JUNE never doubted him. So I disagree with those who think his wife’s death killed his humanity. 
 

I get the need for some closure re June seeing Fred and “reminiscing” but it did not feel that way. Honestly it seemed as though they were going to have sex and she had a plot. I’m glad it wasn’t though because to me it was obvious nobody would care if he lied about his motivations.

fred said “Riley” was dead but we learned from Lawrence that she may not be- hence his deal is odd. (Or if not her some other woman.)

the idiocy of gilead using doctors as whores is just beyond. In a dystopian world where people keep dying they need doctors. The men aren’t idiots they should have figured out a loophole. 
 

I was thinking gilead will never agree TK another trade but reading the thread helped clear up that since it happened in no man’s land etc it’s probably ok diplomatically.

we still don’t know who Nick is married to- June will be sad but she’ll understand he had no choice.

serena! My goal. After the whole begging scene with June and some of the other stuff she’s shown the LLP she really showed her true colors. That flashback of June saying serena was a sociopahh th is not there by accident. 
 

I was one who did believe serena had some regrets as an intelligent woman. But she’s just a user. She detested Fred “sure Fred we can zoom” (although she doled out praise for what he’d done)but was willing to play the role of his wife, for her who, the rest of her life.

TBH to me that’s so much less interesting than the woman who felt sorrow when a child was first admiring her outfit than afraid of her in Canada a few years back, or the woman who gleefully worked with June when Fred was incapacitated. The thing about sociopaths is that they’re so different from us that they are boring. Why analyze their motivations? It doesn’t matter.

even shakespeare had to give his sociopath th a (richard III, iago) humor and clear goals to keep us focused. Most villainess (say Macbeth) are NOT sociopaths, and suffer conscience and terror as a result. 
 

I did kind of want a serena redemption arc- because I thought it would be INTERESTING.

oh well. I’m always interested in the mindset of the petty villains. I wanted more of the capital in The Hunger Games too…

 

[Kel Varnsen]

I thought the scene with Serena and the CIA guy where she was telling him that Fred should be addressed as commander was weird. I guess women in Gilead don't do a lot of bargaining since it seemed she had no power to ask for anything. I wished the CIA guy would have told her that the options they had were for Fred to spill everything and take what they get or go to prison or get sent back to Gilead. With those other options not sure how she was in any position to ask for a bigger house and more security. Especially since if Fred was on to telling them about dead handmaid's and other women, he had probably given them the good intelligence about Gilead government and military.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Kel Varnsen

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Of course not but....

If Serena had died as part of Gilead's rise, would Rita never be a Martha? Is it Serena's direct fault that Rita was enslaved?

I'll take an unpopular opinion stance. It was not until the end of season two that it was clear that Rita wasn't a big Gilead supporter. She seemed to be on board with the whole business. She was even participating in June's enslavement - not harshly and not directly. In some respect, Rita's whole "we were never friends" with Serena is a bit of a rewrite of history. 

When you start beating the slave, that makes you the slave keeper.

[EllaWycliffe]

Fair enough but Serena can probably switch back to her initial stance of how she agreed to give them Fred for immunity.. . And comparatively speaking Serena's crimes against Rita are minor. Let's remember, the escaped Aunt was walking around free in Canada and her crimes are inherently greater than Serena's. 

Don't get me wrong, Serena is despicable and I personally hope she suffers (kudos to the actress for provoking the emotion) but her crimes fall under 'in Gilead this was legal and my husband insisted and disobeying him meant going to a death camp'.

[FierceCritter]

I'm trying to understand something about the logistics of the end.

1) Fred is handed over at the USA/Gilead border. So he's now in Gilead.
2) Fred is driven in a Gilead vehicle by Gilead personnel to some forest
3) Former handmaids also drive to this forest to kill Fred.
4) Fred is killed and strung up against a wall.

All that considered, where the hell were they?  Gilead personnel and a Gilead vehicle indicates Gilead. Canadian refugees with personal vehicles indicates Canada.

If they were in Canada, then Fred's body will be found in Canada, not Gilead. If they were in Gilead, how did these handmaids get there, and why the hell would they risk that?

Oh - and also, I thought the bite was over the top.

Also also, a YouTuber called Lawrence something like a "plot machine" or something like that. He's in essence been the one who helps June tie up the loose ends for, what, 3 finales now? He's become a human deus ex machina.

<-- relurks

Edited June 18, 2021 by FierceCritter

[Cinnabon]

6 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Of course not but....

If Serena had died as part of Gilead's rise, would Rita never be a Martha? Is it Serena's direct fault that Rita was enslaved?

I'll take an unpopular opinion stance. It was not until the end of season two that it was clear that Rita wasn't a big Gilead supporter. She seemed to be on board with the whole business. She was even participating in June's enslavement - not harshly and not directly. In some respect, Rita's whole "we were never friends" with Serena is a bit of a rewrite of history. 

Since Serena was one of the main architects of the whole Gilead system, I do put some blame on her for normalizing slavery.

[The Mighty Peanut]

Can we talk legality? I am going to take a wild guess that Gilead did not agree to give up 22 resistance fighters in exchange for a corpse. If Fred was going to get dead it would have been by their hands. So I wonder what happens to Nick and Lawrence now--neither of them seem too worried, which strikes me as odd. Perhaps they were in no man's land where Fred had no rights, but he was brought there by Nick and the Eyes, am I correct? Are we to assume they are all rebels or rebel sympathizers? 

There is some debate over whether or not June is leaving Luke for good, I sadly think she is 

Spoiler

because she is going underground in order to get the kind of justice she wants (vigilante) and she knows that Luke does not want a life that is fueled by a killing wish. Also, I felt judging by the comment she made that she "knew" and needed 5 minutes, she was referring to the illegality of her actions forcing her to go into hiding.

So I have to think she knows Fred was killed under dubious circumstances. I also wonder what happens to Emily now; she was on shaky ground at one point due to her actions in Gilead and I am concerned she will have to leave Clea Duvall (I'm an asshole, I forget her show name) and Oliver. 

I GUESS I'LL JUST WAIT 2 FUCKING YEARS. Sigh. It goes so fast. I wish this were 22 episodes a season.

[Cinnabon]

4 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Fair enough but Serena can probably switch back to her initial stance of how she agreed to give them Fred for immunity.. . And comparatively speaking Serena's crimes against Rita are minor. Let's remember, the escaped Aunt was walking around free in Canada and her crimes are inherently greater than Serena's. 

Don't get me wrong, Serena is despicable and I personally hope she suffers (kudos to the actress for provoking the emotion) but her crimes fall under 'in Gilead this was legal and my husband insisted and disobeying him meant going to a death camp'.

Just like in Nazi Germany guards were “just following orders?” That didn’t fly in court.

[EllaWycliffe]

35 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Just like in Nazi Germany guards were “just following orders?” That didn’t fly in court.

Agreed but Nazis following orders actually did mostly walk away without punishment. It was the bigger names and agregious offenders who were punished. 

While we know Fred was basically Serena's puppet, the authorities don't. Her known crimes against June and Rita are heinous but not "i created the whole thing". Now will they go after her, sure. Will she get a death sentence for it, probably not.

[dmc]

6 hours ago, Bannon said:

When you start beating the slave, that makes you the slave keeper.

Rita was never friends with Serena.  Serena is shitty to Rita in Season 1.  Rita is her servant or Martha.  She's expected to be subservient.  

Go back and watch the scene where they think June is pregnant the first time.

Serena asks June if her breasts are tender and Rita says that wouldn't happen for while

Serena says " is the cake ready for the Putnams"

Rita says "yep it's all ready to go I just need to wrap it up"

And Serena says "then it's not ready yet" in other words don't contradict me and dismissed.

 

She's basically a house slave closer to the family, but still property.  They treat her slightly better because in their caste system she is up a rung.  

Rita is not nice to June at first but I suspect this is because their other handmaid killed herself and she doesn't want to get attached.  

 

Edited June 18, 2021 by dmc

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Peanut said:

Can we talk legality? I am going to take a wild guess that Gilead did not agree to give up 22 resistance fighters in exchange for a corpse. If Fred was going to get dead it would have been by their hands. So I wonder what happens to Nick and Lawrence now--neither of them seem too worried, which strikes me as odd. Perhaps they were in no man's land where Fred had no rights, but he was brought there by Nick and the Eyes, am I correct? Are we to assume they are all rebels or rebel sympathizers? 

There is some debate over whether or not June is leaving Luke for good, I sadly think she is 

  Hide contents

because she is going underground in order to get the kind of justice she wants (vigilante) and she knows that Luke does not want a life that is fueled by a killing wish. Also, I felt judging by the comment she made that she "knew" and needed 5 minutes, she was referring to the illegality of her actions forcing her to go into hiding.

So I have to think she knows Fred was killed under dubious circumstances. I also wonder what happens to Emily now; she was on shaky ground at one point due to her actions in Gilead and I am concerned she will have to leave Clea Duvall (I'm an asshole, I forget her show name) and Oliver. 

I GUESS I'LL JUST WAIT 2 FUCKING YEARS. Sigh. It goes so fast. I wish this were 22 episodes a season.

From The Showrunner's mouth.

So how is Gilead going to react to this? Because on their end, they thought they were getting Fred in exchange for these women. Are Commander Lawrence and Nick in trouble?

My sense is that they wanted Fred gone. They don't care if Fred's back; they want him to stop talking. So as long as Fred is not talking and that he's been excised from the timeline, they're happy with that. I don't think Lawrence or Nick are ever working completely against Gilead; they're working within the area they can work in Gilead. So I think that before he went and met with June, Lawrence got this approved, that they'd be able to trade this for Fred, and there's a little bit of manipulation on his part that he has to kind of get some official reason why the Eyes took Fred at the border, but the Eyes could make anyone disappear. That's the whole idea behind Nick taking him into the woods and him not coming back - that's what happens in Gilead. And how they got rid of him is also what happens in Gilead; it's exactly what they probably would have done to him anyway. So I think if they find out, they'll be like, "Awesome, saved us a little money and time." I mean, it seems like they wanted him gone, and he's gone. If Lawrence gained a little goodwill with the Americans by doing it, awesome. That's an open line of communication that they can have.

So I think that Gilead doesn't give a crap, but I think that Serena is the one you really have to worry about, or the one I am worried about. Because Serena, although she has mixed feelings about Fred, and certainly the death of your abuser is a complicated emotional thing I imagine, she also does not like to lose. And I think she would definitely feel like this is June coming into her house and taking something from her specifically, and then gloating by sending her the finger and the ring. So I think that June has definitely poked Serena, and it's gonna be very interesting to see how she decides to come back because honestly, she's actually got an easier situation because now she can use Fred without having the bother of actually having Fred around.

 

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, dmc said:

Rita was never friends with Serena.  Serena is shitty to Rita in Season 1.  Rita is her servant or Martha.  She's expected to be subservient.  

Go back and watch the scene where they think June is pregnant the first time.

Serena asks June if her breasts are tender and Rita says that wouldn't happen for while

Serena says " is the cake ready for the Putnams"

Rita says "yep it's all ready to go I just need to wrap it up"

And Serena says "then it's not ready yet" in other words don't contradict me and dismissed.

 

She's basically a house slave closer to the family, but still property.  They treat her slightly better because in their caste system she is up a rung.  

Rita is not nice to June at first but I suspect this is because their other handmaid killed herself and she doesn't want to get attached.  

 

I’m sure the relationship Rita had with Serena was a lot like many slaves had with their “mistresses” way back when.

[dmc]

28 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I’m sure the relationship Rita had with Serena was a lot like many slaves had with their “mistresses” way back when.

Right very warm until they sold you to another family.  

[EllaWycliffe]

5 hours ago, FierceCritter said:

I'm trying to understand something about the logistics of the end.

1) Fred is handed over at the USA/Gilead border. So he's now in Gilead.
2) Fred is driven in a Gilead vehicle by Gilead personnel to some forest
3) Former handmaids also drive to this forest to kill Fred.
4) Fred is killed and strung up against a wall.

All that considered, where the hell were they?  Gilead personnel and a Gilead vehicle indicates Gilead. Canadian refugees with personal vehicles indicates Canada.

More specifically Fred was handed over ON A BRIDGE at the US/Canadian border. Therefore it had to be upstate NY.

Fred is driven around a bit. 

Former handmaids drive to the kill site but there's no way they can just cross the bridge/bridges over the St. Lawrence River because its been previously established that those bridges are heavily guard. So the handmaids had to drive from Toronto up to the border at the top of New York, drive into Quebec and then cross the land border in Vermont/New Hampshire that for some reason is apparently unguarded, into "no man's land". Its ridiculous in that coordinating the meet up would be insane, its a ridiculous drive where June would not have time to get back to Toronto in the early morning. But it was Gilead, not Canada, likely Vermont or New Hampshire, and I can tell you from experience its not hard to find an abandoned stone structure out there. 

5 hours ago, FierceCritter said:

If they were in Canada, then Fred's body will be found in Canada, not Gilead. If they were in Gilead, how did these handmaids get there, and why the hell would they risk that?

If they're magically revealed to be in Canada, I will be really annoyed, and yes, there's all sorts of problems with this considering how locked down the border previously was depicted as. Not to mention handmaids taking that huge of a risk of being captured. 

[Umbelina]

Canada and the Eyes guard the border.

During a prisoner exchange like this, it would be idiotic to not just clear the area of extra cops/patrols.  

We don't know what bridge this was, or where it was.  The Eye's van had NO windows.  I assume they passed back into Canada, simply because that's there the handmaid's cars are more likely to be.  

Either way, Eyes .were not going to capture those handmaids, they were there to have Fred be taken officially, which increased his fear.  I loved that part.  Obviously there was no fear from the women, who calmly walked back to their cars and drove home.

Having Fred specifically say "Are we even in Gilead anymore?" was a huge clue to the audience.  No.  They were not.

 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Umbelina

[EllaWycliffe]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

We don't know what bridge this was, or where it was. 

So the US and Canada have river border crossings in Minnesota, Michigan, New York, Maine and one in Vermont. While what we saw was not an actual border bridge (I doubt they'd allow filming) We know Fred was in Toronto. The closest crossing in an area that isn't highly populated is New York. (Michigan might be closer but that didn't look like Detroit)

I think we can rule out Minnesota, and Maine on distance and the one Vermont crossing is in a quaint village which I didn't see. That leaves crossing in New York... and they're still playing fast and loose with the geography. 

16 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I assume they passed back into Canada, simply because that's there the handmaid's cars are more likely to be.  

I mean sure, because the border isn't locked up air tight with no one going in and out... even thought thats completely at odds with how the border was previously depicted. 

That's the problem. I don't mind if we have a character saying "we've got a special arrangement to get you to the secret kill site in Canada" but no one said that at all. We saw Fred handed over and taken into Gilead. Nick says they're in "no man's land", and we know the handmaids drove. The only way Fred crosses the border by river, but the handmaids travel by land is to keep Fred in Gilead and have the women cross by land from Quebec into VT/NH. Otherwise it would simply take too long in travel time for all of this to be accomplished in one night with June back in Toronto at sunrise.  And thats being super loosy goosy with distances. 

[Umbelina]

17 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

So the US and Canada have river border crossings in Minnesota, Michigan, New York, Maine and one in Vermont. While what we saw was not an actual border bridge (I doubt they'd allow filming) We know Fred was in Toronto. The closest crossing in an area that isn't highly populated is New York. (Michigan might be closer but that didn't look like Detroit)

I think we can rule out Minnesota, and Maine on distance and the one Vermont crossing is in a quaint village which I didn't see. That leaves crossing in New York... and they're still playing fast and loose with the geography. 

I mean sure, because the border isn't locked up air tight with no one going in and out... even thought thats completely at odds with how the border was previously depicted. 

That's the problem. I don't mind if we have a character saying "we've got a special arrangement to get you to the secret kill site in Canada" but no one said that at all. We saw Fred handed over and taken into Gilead. Nick says they're in "no man's land", and we know the handmaids drove. The only way Fred crosses the border by river, but the handmaids travel by land is to keep Fred in Gilead and have the women cross by land from Quebec into VT/NH. Otherwise it would simply take too long in travel time for all of this to be accomplished in one night with June back in Toronto at sunrise.  And thats being super loosy goosy with distances. 

Yeah, they could easily just turn that Eye's truck around and drive right back over the same bridge.

I'm not hung up on the Geography that much, it's a detail I don't need to know, how long did they drive to meet Joseph, where was the bridge, how long did the drive Fred around before and after he's taken into Eye's custody, blah blah...don't care.

I get it's fun to nitpick the show apart on details like this, but I don't need each movement hand fed to me.  We got the clues.  "No man's land" is probably the disputed areas shown on the maps long long ago, which were numerous near the border.  Canada and especially the USA wanted Fred gone and to get their assets back.  Gilead just wanted Fred to shut the fuck up.  Nick probably had orders to kill Fred in that forest anyway, or it's highly likely.  Why bring a traitor back, why admit you have a commander traitor and go through the whole embarrassing trial?  Easier to just kill him.

The only think Nick probably changed was letting the handmaids kill Fred, he's on a wall, which is also something the Eyes would do.  

It all works for me.  I know that I tend to be a glass half full person with this show, but it this case?  The glass, for me, is 9/10's full.  I'm happy.  At least geography quibbles are more interesting endless "I hate June" posts.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Umbelina

[EllaWycliffe]

Just now, Umbelina said:

Yeah, they could easily just turn that Eye's truck around and drive right back over the same bridge.

Without the Canadians having an issue? With Gilead Eyes running around? If that's what they decide they did in the next season, it's bullshit and completely at odds with the locked tight guarded border. That's a writing problem. 

I mean, if you don't care, I'm not sure why we're having this discussion. 

 

 

[Umbelina]

11 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Without the Canadians having an issue? With Gilead Eyes running around? If that's what they decide they did in the next season, it's bullshit and completely at odds with the locked tight guarded border. That's a writing problem. 

I mean, if you don't care, I'm not sure why we're having this discussion. 

 

 

Governments tend to cooperate around spy exchanges, which, by the way, are often held on bridges as an easy-to-defend border.

I've been interested in spies for my entire life, the technicalities of geography for non-real exchanges just doesn't fuss me too much.  We have no idea where they are, that was deliberate, and it does not matter for this storyline.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Umbelina

[GrannySmith]

2 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

More specifically Fred was handed over ON A BRIDGE at the US/Canadian border. Therefore it had to be upstate NY.

Fred is driven around a bit. 

Former handmaids drive to the kill site but there's no way they can just cross the bridge/bridges over the St. Lawrence River because its been previously established that those bridges are heavily guard. So the handmaids had to drive from Toronto up to the border at the top of New York, drive into Quebec and then cross the land border in Vermont/New Hampshire that for some reason is apparently unguarded, into "no man's land". Its ridiculous in that coordinating the meet up would be insane, its a ridiculous drive where June would not have time to get back to Toronto in the early morning. But it was Gilead, not Canada, likely Vermont or New Hampshire, and I can tell you from experience its not hard to find an abandoned stone structure out there. 

If they're magically revealed to be in Canada, I will be really annoyed, and yes, there's all sorts of problems with this considering how locked down the border previously was depicted as. Not to mention handmaids taking that huge of a risk of being captured. 

They can also cross from Canada to New York over the Niagara River in the Niagara Falls/ Buffalo area. There are three bridges, and it’s only a couple of hours from Toronto. 

[Kel Varnsen]

2 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

So the US and Canada have river border crossings in Minnesota, Michigan, New York, Maine and one in Vermont. While what we saw was not an actual border bridge (I doubt they'd allow filming) We know Fred was in Toronto. The closest crossing in an area that isn't highly populated is New York. (Michigan might be closer but that didn't look like Detroit)

It has been pretty clear from the start of this show that the writers have no idea about Canadian geography. Although if they wanted a border crossing in Ontario that was kind of a no man's land kind of thing, the 1000 Island bridge would be an interesting one since you take bridges over two islands and the water between the islands is the border. I can see Canada maybe not wanting to secure their island. The other interesting option would be Cornwall Island although that is further away from Toronto. But the interesting thing there is the island is Mohawk First Nations territory and there territory also extends into New York State. Like how did the people living there handle the US being taken over?

Of course it could also just be something stupid like how Nick is now head of border patrol and was able to order Gilead's forces to back off a ways so that this whole thing could go down.

[EllaWycliffe]

11 minutes ago, GrannySmith said:

They can also cross from Canada to New York over the Niagara River in the Niagara Falls/ Buffalo area. There are three bridges, and it’s only a couple of hours from Toronto. 

Agreed but that area is not forested and woodsy, its very industrial

[BrindaWalsh]

I'd like to know how they found a wall in the woods on such short notice.