S04.E10: The Wilderness

[mamadrama]

On 6/29/2021 at 10:33 AM, EllaWycliffe said:

He was in American Horror Story Asylum and I was kind of blown away there too. Other stuff as well, but his performance was great

He's mostly known for his stage acting and he's won a lot of awards. I saw him in several productions (most notably the West End's The Woman in Black which is still the best live production I've ever seen) before his big breakout roles in Shakespeare in Love & Elizabeth. 

I know his brother Ralph gets most of the attention, but I've always had a soft spot for Joe. 

[Emily Thrace]

On 6/28/2021 at 8:24 PM, EllaWycliffe said:

Oh that's easily gotten around - she's a political prisoner. She's a political prisoner of the US being held in Canada. Or there's something nebulous about her status. Or Canada has changed the law since getting pummeled with refugees and babies of non citizens aren't automatically Canadian. Or babies ARE automatically Canadian and Canada won't send a Canadian citizen to Gilead, but they will boot Serena back to her beloved home without the baby. 

The only possibility that really fits there is if Serena is not considered under Canadian jurisdiction. The idea that her baby would not be Canadian even if its born there or that we would deport a mother away from her child simply would not happen under Canadian law. It would be a betrayal of Canadian values and a complete 180 in terms of our laws. Canada is much more in favor of immigration in general and our laws are much more in favor of protecting the immigrant as than in the US. Our immigration laws were completely reworked in 1947 and are based in the old school open immigration ideas and the protection of refugees. There have been reforms and changes over the years but even us giving up Fred is a bit of a stretch since we usually won't hand over anyone if the death penalty is on the table.

[EllaWycliffe]

2 hours ago, Emily Thrace said:

It would be a betrayal of Canadian values and a complete 180 in terms of our laws. Canada is much more in favor of immigration in general and our laws are much more in favor of protecting the immigrant as than in the US. Our immigration laws were completely reworked in 1947 and are based in the old school open immigration ideas and the protection of refugees.

Agree but in a post-US Falls, Gilead Rises world, things could certainly change. I wouldn't assume that Canadian law remains stagnant. But also frankly, you had it here:

2 hours ago, Emily Thrace said:

The only possibility that really fits there is if Serena is not considered under Canadian jurisdiction

I think its easily argued that Serena is under US authority and just happens to be held in Canada due to awkward circumstances. And US law would certainly allow for moms to be seperated from children 

[txhorns79]

On 6/16/2021 at 4:42 PM, Cinnabon said:

I don’t know what to make of Luke’s reaction either. I don’t think it necessarily means their marriage is over though.

My impression was that he recognized and accepted that the June he was once married to is long gone.  He loves her, but realizes she is too unstable to have around and is beyond his ability to help. 

[mostlylurking]

On 6/16/2021 at 12:09 AM, chocolatine said:

but she just had to have her revenge exactly how she wanted at the cost of raising Nicole in a happy home with a mother and father.

I kind of knew she was no longer able to be that mother figure for Nicole. With all the trauma surrounding Nicole’s conception, birth, and then having her taken away at such a young age, I don’t think June was able to bond with Nicole in the way she obviously did with Hannah. Then she finally gets to Canada and Moira and Luke have settled into the mother and father roles for Nicole. June never felt like she fit in, so I figured at some point she was going to leave.

I didn’t expect that ending though. Where is June going?  Back to Gilead for Hannah?  What will happen to the other refugee handmaids (especially Emily)?

Lukes reaction was strange too. Just falling to the floor like that. Did he know what she had done?  Was he just in shock?

On a lighter note, loved the zoom reference. “Sure Fred, we can zoom” is the new “go fuck yourself”. 

[txhorns79]

4 hours ago, mostlylurking said:

 

On a lighter note, loved the zoom reference. “Sure Fred, we can zoom” is the new “go fuck yourself”. 

I think Serena Joy is a soulless monster, but I also think Yvonne Strahovski is just amazing in this role.  I love it how she goes from being a crying mess begging June's forgiveness in one episode and now is back to lecturing people on how to address Fred, making demands about housing and acting put out that the people questioning Fred aren't treating him with kid gloves.  She will do whatever she feels she needs to do to stay in some kind of proximity to power.  She really is just pathetic.     

[mostlylurking]

On 6/16/2021 at 10:41 PM, chaifan said:

Others have already said it - why does she assume she has to leave? 

I don’t think anyone will be after her necessarily, but I think she knows she’s not in a place mentally where she can raise a child. Like Lawrence said, killing Fred won’t be enough. She is in total revenge/bloodlust mode. I think when/if she’s able to get Hannah out she won’t be raising her either. She’s not that person anymore, and I think sadly she knows her children are better off without her.

I don’t think Gilead will care at all what happened to Fred.  He was a rat and they probably would have killed him anyway.  One less thing for them to worry about.

I thought Luke’s reaction was strange but upon thinking more of it I guess he knows June killed Fred because of what she said to him in the car and also overhearing her speaking to Emily.

I don’t think anyone can tell anyone else how to deal with trauma. Everyone is different. All these women have had to deal with unimaginable shit. Moira killed to escape, and she did it on her own. She didn’t have a huge network of Martha’s helping her like Emily and June. Even Luke had trauma about escaping and his wife and daughter being left behind. Just because Luke, Rita, and Moira are dealing with their trauma in a more (outwardly) peaceful way doesn’t make them cowards. Someone needs to stay behind and do the mundane things like wash the dishes and raise the kids while the crusaders are out fighting the wars. That doesn’t make them any less heroic. 

I also think it’s interesting how June and Emily kind of switched places. Pre-Gilead Emily seemed a lot more vocal, like when she was yelling at the guards at the airport. Now she’s so timid. June is the opposite. She seemed quite passive before Gilead, now of course she’s warrior June. Just interesting how experiences change people. 

Edited August 21, 2021 by mostlylurking

[Redrum]

Late to the party, I see but - 

On 8/20/2021 at 6:38 PM, mostlylurking said:

I don’t think Gilead will care at all what happened to Fred.  He was a rat and they probably would have killed him anyway.  One less thing for them to worry about.

If this was a real world thing and not tv where stuff gets winked at, Lawrence should be in trouble for losing Fred before the show trial. Yes, Gilead was going to kill him - because he was a traitor after all was said and done, but I suspect they really wanted a show trial and execution so all the higher ups with the idea that maybe they could switch sides would learn a lesson. Now it looks like they lost control of the situation.

I just doubt Lawrence will face any backlash over this. 

[ComeWhatMay]

I am a late-comer to this show and am still catching-up, but wanted to chime in on a particular moment in this particular episode. 

If there was a scintilla of a chance Fred was Nichole’s father, the time for him to mention it was in those woods when Nichole’s parents were making out in front of him or before June and her team annihilated him. 

Abusers do not miss a chance, especially the last one they will have, to screw with you. 

[ComeWhatMay]

I think Serena will come after June personally and we know Serena’s a sociopath. June brought a war to that house sending that finger especially. She needs to get the war away from Nichole. Like Nichole’s father did.

Loved the controlled rage Nick exhibited when he came face to face with Fred again with knowledge of the labor inducing rape on top of all the rest — and that pistol whip Nick gave Fred. Love that Lawrence got in there too, in my mind for Eleanor. 

Nick and June rub noses as we know. Moss’ kiss on baby Nichole’s nose at the end was a nice touch. The casting people did a great job with the baby, by the way. I see Moss’ hair and eyes and Minghella’s profile. It was especially noticeable last episode. 

[paramitch]

I thought this was really strong, if disturbing. Yes, I agree that logistics are stretched on this show as far as legalities, but it's a fictional world, so I'm fine with it.

I was horrified by what June and the handmaids did but also exhilarated, in this terrible way. I wanted them to get justice. I wanted Fred to suffer. I wanted him to be afraid.

Interesting that Fred really did think June felt something for him. Which I believe -- it's always been this extra-gross aspect of his -- that he felt June was his actual mistress and not his sex slave. That she had feelings for him beyond "I hate you so much and your every touch and violation made me want to vomit."

I wanted Fred to die and was happy it took place here. Still, the moment June bit him, I went, OH MY GOD NO.

It was just too much.

And I think that is exactly what the show was trying to give us. TOO MUCH.

I'm very interested in next steps. I've already watched further so this is where I'll stop. But good riddance, Fred. And kudos Joseph Fiennes, who was by all accounts a sweetheart to work with, in direct opposition to his supervillain performance here.

[crashdown]

1 hour ago, paramitch said:

I wanted Fred to die and was happy it took place here. Still, the moment June bit him, I went, OH MY GOD NO.

The interesting thing about that bite is that it's not only a callback to the first scene of the episode where June is dancing with Fred and tells herself not to bite him (that callback is obvious), but it's also a callback to the episode in season 1 when June tells Janine that she can't go around biting her mistress and commander. I liked that.

[paramitch]

10 hours ago, crashdown said:

The interesting thing about that bite is that it's not only a callback to the first scene of the episode where June is dancing with Fred and tells herself not to bite him (that callback is obvious), but it's also a callback to the episode in season 1 when June tells Janine that she can't go around biting her mistress and commander. I liked that.

Oh, that's terrific! I hadn't remembered that. I love it.