S04.E08: Testimony

[mamadrama]

44 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Luke's lived with them though, and worked with them at the center.

That mute woman who wouldn't speak?  Moira?  He knows Emily too.

It's not as if the dude has no experience with survivors of Gilead.

That's just it-his experience is with survivors of Gilead, not so much with Gilead itself. Especially not with Gilead as a woman. While he experienced losing his wife and family, getting shot, and escaping to Canada those are vastly different experiences than what a female trapped and imprisoned there for several years went through. 

[AllyB]

10 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I disliked that the show ended up making June right again. I don't think she should have ambushed Emily at therapy by bringing the aunt. It should have been Emily's choice whether to confront her or see her at all.

In the final library scene at one point June turns to Emily and says Emily should speak, 'if she wants.' And I wanted Emily to turn to her and say, 'oh, so now you care about what I want?' Because Emily's wants were utterly irrelevant to June up until it suited her.

That said I'm glad Emily was happy Irene/Iris was dead. Her suicide felt manipulative to me, an attempt to make Emily regret not forgiving her. Because all of her language was completely centred on herself. She couldn't sleep knowing Emily was in Canada, suggesting she was fine with what she had done, it was the potential consequences of being outed by her victim that were keeping her up at night. She wanted Emily to forgive her so she could get on with her new Canada life fear free. To achieve this she hounded Emily in spite of the clear distress it caused her. Someone who was sorry wouldn't have been able to sleep after escaping to Canada, because the horror of what they had done would have been playing on their minds. She would have wanted to apologise to Emily and try to make amends never expecting forgiveness if she was actually sorry. She wouldn't have continued to cause upset by following her around. Killing herself was a way to escape consequences while also trying to punish Emily for not giving her what she wanted. So I'm very, very glad that it backfired and just made Emily feel freer.

[Brn2bwild]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Thinking more about Emily and June in that group therapy scene, and in the past.

The reality was Emily joined Mayday first.  Emily has always been a fighter.  When June was meek and scared and just talking to herself?  Emily acted.  She's ALWAYS acted, she's always done things.

I said it kind of, earlier, but if anything June was inspired by Emily, all along.  She's seen Emily fight when others didn't.  

She brought that Aunt into the group (no, not anyone could walk in, June brought her in) because she knows Emily in her bones, and she knew what Emily needed to snap out of her current self and back to who she really was before Gilead.  Remember when June asked her if she was teaching again?  Nope, Emily was too scared to even do that.

Emily was a hero to June, the first one to resist, she inspired June resisting, and now, after all that journaling and talking, she was a timid little broken thing.  She wasn't the in charge professor, or the defiant handmaid that joined Mayday, or even able to sleep in the same bed with her wife.  

In the end, June was correct.  Emily is back.  Strong, confident Emily is finally back.

THIS.  I have been waiting for that side of Emily to return.  I wish we could have seen the moment when Emily learned that Alma and Brianna (and for all she knew, Janine) had died.  I wonder if Alma learned about Mayday from Emily, or vice versa.

[Stephanie23]

7 hours ago, Bannon said:

He was a different person while his wife still lived. I suspect, with each day that passes without her influence, he becomes more unmoored from any ethical humanity. I suspect he has it in him to become a chronic rapist like other Commanders.

But for him to become that he has to have a second Wife.

 

I have a theory that when Serena and Fred return to Gilead, maybe they will kill Fred but Serena will become a Wife to some other (widower) Commander. I don't mean Lawrence but someone else.

I just don't see her as a handmaid because she was the 'poster girl' for Gilead Wife.

[Jan.na]

22 hours ago, chediavolo said:

Not very nice to say  but aAlexis Bledel has really aged in an unexpected way in my opinion. I thought she was quite beautiful a lot of the time on Gilmore girls it’s just Little surprising that she hasn’t aged into her face all that nicely considering she is still youngish.

 

for some reason I'm hating the glasses they gave her. They also make her look older and 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Jan.na

[BrindaWalsh]

Was anybody a Lois Duncan fan growing up and if so did you get Daughters Of Eve vibes to the nth degree in those therapy sessions?

Speaking of therapy, what is this group stuff?  Every single one of these ladies should be inextensive private counseling, group led by a trained psychologist and some likely on a prescribed anti-depressant and/or anti-anxiety.

And as for June, I know why the show is going in this direction but honestly the show is so dark, I was hoping for some moments of light and love for June.  Remember the beautiful reunion of Moira and Luke, that he had listed her as family?  Yes, it is a dark show, but where is the poignancy?

Who in their right mind in Canada would be fans of the Waterfords.

[Brn2bwild]

26 minutes ago, Jan.na said:

for some reason I'm hating the glasses they gave her. They make her look older.

It doesn't help that they filmed her and others in a tight closeup during her pivotal scene. Emily said she felt "amazing" but I didn't see it in her face and was not able to observe her body language. To me her face still looked worried.

I could see a final scene where Emily joins June to help the other handmaids and takes off her glasses to return to the vengeance warrior she was in Gilead.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Brn2bwild

[Bannon]

6 hours ago, AllyB said:

In the final library scene at one point June turns to Emily and says Emily should speak, 'if she wants.' And I wanted Emily to turn to her and say, 'oh, so now you care about what I want?' Because Emily's wants were utterly irrelevant to June up until it suited her.

That said I'm glad Emily was happy Irene/Iris was dead. Her suicide felt manipulative to me, an attempt to make Emily regret not forgiving her. Because all of her language was completely centred on herself. She couldn't sleep knowing Emily was in Canada, suggesting she was fine with what she had done, it was the potential consequences of being outed by her victim that were keeping her up at night. She wanted Emily to forgive her so she could get on with her new Canada life fear free. To achieve this she hounded Emily in spite of the clear distress it caused her. Someone who was sorry wouldn't have been able to sleep after escaping to Canada, because the horror of what they had done would have been playing on their minds. She would have wanted to apologise to Emily and try to make amends never expecting forgiveness if she was actually sorry. She wouldn't have continued to cause upset by following her around. Killing herself was a way to escape consequences while also trying to punish Emily for not giving her what she wanted. So I'm very, very glad that it backfired and just made Emily feel freer.

Could not agree more. It really angers me when people seek grace on the discount plan. Forgiveness is a hard, hard, road to travel, and it's frankly offensive to show up out of the blue, to someone you've inflicted incalculable harm, and ask to be forgiven. If she was genuine in her remorse, you know what she should have done? Unprompted, she should have turned herself in to the US Government, or the Intl. Criminal Court, confessed fully to her crimes, and cooperated in any way she was asked, and accepted any consequences. Instead, she wants to continue her life of comfort in Canada, under false pretenses, and has the utter gall to pester her torture victim for forgiveness! Ugh. I was worried that the writers were going to write Emily sad about her role in her torturer's suicide, and was glad that they didn't.

[Umbelina]

6 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

THIS.  I have been waiting for that side of Emily to return.  I wish we could have seen the moment when Emily learned that Alma and Brianna (and for all she knew, Janine) had died.  I wonder if Alma learned about Mayday from Emily, or vice versa.

Indeed.

It was a bit surprising to remember that Emily, not June, was the original brave and rebellious handmaid that, early on said "F*** this shit!" and was fighting back.  June remembered though, and knew exactly what Emily needed, to regain that self she's lost.  To remember she's always been a fighter, and unwilling to accept the crap that was and still is Gilead.

As for the others in the group?  I'm not sure, we don't really know them yet.  However, what was obvious was their apparently unexpressed and discouraged and to me anyway, righteous rage and anger.  That broomstick comment, oh my, and cutting off her commander's dick and making him eat it?

I think Moira was really trying hard to do what she thought was best for all.  It was hard to see her face when it became obvious she (or rather, her style/program) had failed them.

That made me think of the different experiences the handmaid's had from the women at Jezebels.  Way back in season one I was kind of blasted for saying that I would have rather worked at Jezebel's than be forced to be a handmaid.  At least there, they got to read, have a drink, not wear uniforms, or clean, or be under the thumb of a "wife."  Nighttime brought their "tortures" with the prostitution duties, but even with that?  To me it was a better life than for the handmaids we knew.  A tiny bit of that oh so important little freedoms.  Reading, lotions, speaking freely among themselves...

Either way, Moira's experiences were not the same as the handmaids.  Better or worse is open to interpretation, but they were not the same, also, Moira escaped pretty early on.

54 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

It doesn't help that they filmed her and others in a tight closeup during her pivotal scene. Emily said she felt "amazing" but I didn't see it in her face and was not able to observe her body language. To me her face still looked worried.

I could see a final scene where Emily joins June to help the other handmaids and takes off her glasses to return to the vengeance warrior she was in Gilead.

Oh, I agree about Emily.  After all, she was the original rebel handmaid, not June.  

53 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Could not agree more. It really angers me when people seek grace on the discount plan. Forgiveness is a hard, hard, road to travel, and it's frankly offensive to show up out of the blue, to someone you've inflicted incalculable harm, and ask to be forgiven. If she was genuine in her remorse, you know what she should have done? Unprompted, she should have turned herself in to the US Government, or the Intl. Criminal Court, confessed fully to her crimes, and cooperated in any way she was asked, and accepted any consequences. Instead, she wants to continue her life of comfort in Canada, under false pretenses, and has the utter gall to pester her torture victim for forgiveness! Ugh. I was worried that the writers were going to write Emily sad about her role in her torturer's suicide, and was glad that they didn't.

1 hour ago, BrindaWalsh said:

(formatting screwed up, so putting this one later)

To be excruciatingly fair, although I agree with you completely about the forgiveness stuff?  We don't really know what the Aunt endured, or what twisted crap made her turn in Emily and her lover.

However, she had to know the Martha would be killed, and had to expect the valuable handmaid would be tortured.  

Was she a religious fanatic, all in on the God stuff, she sure seemed to talk about that a lot.  Either way, she was sincere enough to kill herself in remorse, so that is something in her favor.

I'm glad Emily didn't have to kill her too.  

1 hour ago, BrindaWalsh said:

And as for June, I know why the show is going in this direction but honestly the show is so dark, I was hoping for some moments of light and love for June.  Remember the beautiful reunion of Moira and Luke, that he had listed her as family?  Yes, it is a dark show, but where is the poignancy?

Who in their right mind in Canada would be fans of the Waterfords.

To the last sentence?  Religious nuts, people desperate for children, former Serena fans.  People who are willfully blind to facts.  The "Fake News!" crowd, and conspiracy nuts thinking it's all lies about Gilead, etc.

To the first part?  There was some love and light.  Remember June and Rita, Moira, and Emily sitting around talking?  Remember June finally setting her feet down on free soil?  In this episode, June being able to stand up in court, bravely facing the monsters from Gilead and speaking her truth?

June's not the same person, she changed during her time with the handmaid that snitched about Hannah.  Part of it was delusion/exhaustion/delirium, but when they ripped that baby from OfMathew's body, and left her to bleed out on the table.  True, she was already brain dead, but at that moment, June realized it wasn't OfMathew's fault, and that everyone deserved saving, from that hell that was Gilead, especially the children, including OfMathew's child.  Her first, single minded, won't take no for an answer, I will find a way, audacious escape plan worked, because fear was gone.  Only determination and refusal to give up made that happen.  It worked.

I think she's got that same determination now, only this time, it's bigger.  She's been so determined to join the fighters in Chicago, to join the fight to defeat Gilead.  I don't see her giving that up.

Will Moira or Luke come along on that ride?  No idea, but my gut says no.  Emily though?  June's original inspiration?  Very likely.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Umbelina

[Umbelina]

Finally googled "how long has Gilead been in power?"  Now I know where I got my "five years" thing.

Witness, episode 10, season 3.  5 years last season.

So, maybe 5 1/2 or 6 years now?  

Moira escaped in season 1, episode 4.  I don't think she was ever a handmaid, please correct me if I'm wrong about that.  I think she went directly from the training center to Jezebels.  ??  Either way, I don't think she was in Gilead for very long, maybe one year?

[EllaWycliffe]

I don't think you're correct. At least on the time in country. Moira and June were in Handmaid school together. That was a few months. Moira ran off, got caught, ended up in Jezebel's. June had an entire first posting before she went to the Waterfords. Also Moira was already "in training" as a handmaid when June was captured. I put it at two years. 

The only part of being a Handmaid that Moira missed out on was the "rape on the bed with the wife holding her down" part, and I wouldn't put working at Jezebel's as better considering Moira's a lesbian and its a sex club for men.

[Umbelina]

12 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

I don't think you're correct. At least on the time in country. Moira and June were in Handmaid school together. That was a few months. Moira ran off, got caught, ended up in Jezebel's. June had an entire first posting before she went to the Waterfords. Also Moira was already "in training" as a handmaid when June was captured. I put it at two years. 

The only part of being a Handmaid that Moira missed out on was the "rape on the bed with the wife holding her down" part, and I wouldn't put working at Jezebel's as better considering Moira's a lesbian and its a sex club for men.

As I said, I know many wouldn't agree with me about preferring the relative freedom of Jezebel's to daily life as a Handmaid, living with her rapists night and day.  For me though?  Being able to read, have a drink, talk relatively freely, and not have to wear that handmaid uniform, or try to steal butter to use as lotion?  It would have been my choice.

The whole sex thing, being lesbian or not, wouldn't really matter, especially since many of the commanders at Jezebel's liked to have two women at once, or just watch women do it.  I'm straight, but I'd still prefer acting out sex with another woman to living as a handmaid.

I don't think I would have survived as a handmaid, the confinement and boredom and hatefulness and hypocrisy of it all would destroy me faster than "nights only" and at least them calling it was it is, sex for men, not some holy "ceremony."  I fully understand why others would prefer being a handmaid though.

ETA, reading this I still can't be sure, it sounds like after her first escape from the Red Center (handmaid training) they sent Moira directly to Jezebel's.  https://the-handmaids-tale.fandom.com/wiki/Moira_Strand

Edited June 3, 2021 by Umbelina

[Trillian]

2 hours ago, BrindaWalsh said:

Speaking of therapy, what is this group stuff?  Every single one of these ladies should be inextensive private counseling, group led by a trained psychologist and some likely on a prescribed anti-depressant and/or anti-anxiety.

And as for June, I know why the show is going in this direction but honestly the show is so dark, I was hoping for some moments of light and love for June.  Remember the beautiful reunion of Moira and Luke, that he had listed her as family?  Yes, it is a dark show, but where is the poignancy?

I can accept that the other woman have had more time, possibly/probably with proper private therapy, that they can do this, but no way is June ready for group. Especially a group run by her friend. Her trauma is still too raw for her either to get anything out of listening to others or to have anything to contribute. Even if the group had been run by a trained professional (and there’s usually nothing wrong with a trained amateur running a group, just not the best friend of the loose cannon), she shouldn’t have been allowed in yet.

Whether or not the former Aunt was right about trying to reach Emily, June forced that confrontation and her humiliation.  It could’ve gone very badly for Emily.  OK, she’s happy about the suicide but she was deprived of the right to work through her feelings and to determine on her own if she could or would forgive. June decided for her that bloodlust is the way to go.

Someone needs to rein this woman in before she hurts more people or herself. 

[Bannon]

38 minutes ago, Trillian said:

I can accept that the other woman have had more time, possibly/probably with proper private therapy, that they can do this, but no way is June ready for group. Especially a group run by her friend. Her trauma is still too raw for her either to get anything out of listening to others or to have anything to contribute. Even if the group had been run by a trained professional (and there’s usually nothing wrong with a trained amateur running a group, just not the best friend of the loose cannon), she shouldn’t have been allowed in yet.

Whether or not the former Aunt was right about trying to reach Emily, June forced that confrontation and her humiliation.  It could’ve gone very badly for Emily.  OK, she’s happy about the suicide but she was deprived of the right to work through her feelings and to determine on her own if she could or would forgive. June decided for her that bloodlust is the way to go.

Someone needs to rein this woman in before she hurts more people or herself. 

June needs the opportunity to channel her anger and hatred productively. That is, she needs to pour her volcanic energy into destroying Gilead, and she knows it. Everybody isn't June, so group therapy as was portrayed is perfectly appropriate for some. It isn't for her.

A parallel I've seen in my life was a friend of my father, who fought in the Pacific Theater of WWII, right from the outset at Guadalcanal, through Okinawa. He was immersed in unspeakable savagery and horror that no television show or movie can really portray, and when it was over he'd lost a leg, and gained a nearly unquenchable hatred of the people who forced him to have such experiences. Yes that hatred and anger was a hindrance in his later life, one that he worked hard at overcoming, sometimes successfully, sometimes not.

At the time, however, that anger and hatred had significant, albeit imperfect, utility. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Bannon

[TV Anonymous]

Am I the only one feeling a bit weird that the survivors meetings happened in a library? Not in a separate room within a library building but in the actual room where books were and visitors presumably came to read?

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, TV Anonymous said:

Am I the only one feeling a bit weird that the survivors meetings happened in a library? Not in a separate room within a library building but in the actual room where books were and visitors presumably came to read?

Looked like it was nighttime, and the Library was closed.

[AntFTW]

9 hours ago, AllyB said:

In the final library scene at one point June turns to Emily and says Emily should speak, 'if she wants.' And I wanted Emily to turn to her and say, 'oh, so now you care about what I want?' Because Emily's wants were utterly irrelevant to June up until it suited her.

That said I'm glad Emily was happy Irene/Iris was dead. Her suicide felt manipulative to me, an attempt to make Emily regret not forgiving her. Because all of her language was completely centred on herself. She couldn't sleep knowing Emily was in Canada, suggesting she was fine with what she had done, it was the potential consequences of being outed by her victim that were keeping her up at night. She wanted Emily to forgive her so she could get on with her new Canada life fear free. To achieve this she hounded Emily in spite of the clear distress it caused her. Someone who was sorry wouldn't have been able to sleep after escaping to Canada, because the horror of what they had done would have been playing on their minds. She would have wanted to apologise to Emily and try to make amends never expecting forgiveness if she was actually sorry. She wouldn't have continued to cause upset by following her around. Killing herself was a way to escape consequences while also trying to punish Emily for not giving her what she wanted. So I'm very, very glad that it backfired and just made Emily feel freer.

I'm not entirely sure that I buy that Emily is "happy" that Irene/Iris is dead. I felt that Emily was pressured into saying that. I felt like June had put everyone's eyes on Emily, and put Emily in the spotlight.

June wants people to be as angry as she is. June is trying to manipulate the group's emotions, and appears to be successful. That's June being selfish. She's not letting the group process their emotions how they want to. June is trapped in anger, so she wants others to be trapped there as well.

On one end, we're saying that June should talk about her experience and process her trauma on her own time, but at the same time, June completely disregarded Emily's timeline. June brought Irene/Iris into the group, put Irene/Iris in the middle, and basically Emily on blast right there, forcing Emily to face a part of her past that she wasn't ready to face just yet.

Edited June 3, 2021 by AntFTW

[TV Anonymous]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

Looked like it was nighttime, and the Library was closed.

The last scene where the meeting happened and Emily said she was happy Aunt Irene had been dead, the view outside the window was clearly bright. And since this was winter in Toronto, it could not have been later than 16:00. As Moira said, "The hour is over," then the meeting could not have started later than 15:00, still within a library opening hours.

[Bannon]

As clumsily as it was written and filmed, upon reflection I have a suspicion as to the purpose of the pro Gilead crowd scene, cheering on the Waterfords. In a world where birth rates are plummeting, to the point that the survival of the species is threatened, or at least functioning human societies as they have been known for several thousand years, the fact that only Gilead is reversing that trend (the science of which I really don't buy, but whatever) means Gilead really can't be compartmentalized by the rest of the world. It's ideology has a significant chance of spreading well beyond Gilead. Which means that, no, living in Canada, and letting Gilead be Gilead, really isn't a viable long term strategy. The entire rest of the world really does need to have Gilead destroyed.

[LordOfLotion]

13 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

JUNE literally just escaped Gilead, a few days ago. Please click the link I provided above, it’s s short page that describes PTSD in trauma survivors. She is not a sociopath. She is overbearing and selfish at times right now, but if she doesn’t keep working to bring down Gilead, who will? If everyone sat quietly and only journaled about their experiences, nothing would ever change. War is hell.

Has it really only been a few days since she got out of Gilead? I'm only asking because I feel like Serena's baby bump increased a lot in size between episodes and maybe I'm the crazy one.

[txhorns79]

6 hours ago, BrindaWalsh said:

And as for June, I know why the show is going in this direction but honestly the show is so dark, I was hoping for some moments of light and love for June.  Remember the beautiful reunion of Moira and Luke, that he had listed her as family?  Yes, it is a dark show, but where is the poignancy?

I think the Moira/Luke reunion was much lighter because there is so much less baggage between them.  

[AntFTW]

2 hours ago, LordOfLotion said:

Has it really only been a few days since she got out of Gilead? I'm only asking because I feel like Serena's baby bump increased a lot in size between episodes and maybe I'm the crazy one.

Looking at Serena's baby bump, I thought they did a significant time jump.

[mamadrama]

7 hours ago, BrindaWalsh said:

Was anybody a Lois Duncan fan growing up and if so did you get Daughters Of Eve vibes to the nth degree in those therapy sessions?

Speaking of therapy, what is this group stuff?  Every single one of these ladies should be inextensive private counseling, group led by a trained psychologist and some likely on a prescribed anti-depressant and/or anti-anxiety.

And as for June, I know why the show is going in this direction but honestly the show is so dark, I was hoping for some moments of light and love for June.  Remember the beautiful reunion of Moira and Luke, that he had listed her as family?  Yes, it is a dark show, but where is the poignancy?

Who in their right mind in Canada would be fans of the Waterfords.

You're the first person I've ever met who also loved Duncan. Daughter's of Eve is dead on in this situation. 

[akr]

7 hours ago, BrindaWalsh said:

Speaking of therapy, what is this group stuff?  Every single one of these ladies should be inextensive private counseling, group led by a trained psychologist and some likely on a prescribed anti-depressant and/or anti-anxiety.

Who's to say the group session is the only help they're getting? I would assume it's supplemental to whatever else they may need/want.

(And I assume it is during hours when the library is closed. Although someone pointed out that the sun appeared to be up during at least one session, it's entirely possible that some branches of the Toronto library system (there are many) aren't open every day, or it could be a university or other institutional library at a time when school is out of session or workers have the weekend off, etc.)     

[Cinnabon]

8 hours ago, Bannon said:

Could not agree more. It really angers me when people seek grace on the discount plan. Forgiveness is a hard, hard, road to travel, and it's frankly offensive to show up out of the blue, to someone you've inflicted incalculable harm, and ask to be forgiven. If she was genuine in her remorse, you know what she should have done? Unprompted, she should have turned herself in to the US Government, or the Intl. Criminal Court, confessed fully to her crimes, and cooperated in any way she was asked, and accepted any consequences. Instead, she wants to continue her life of comfort in Canada, under false pretenses, and has the utter gall to pester her torture victim for forgiveness! Ugh. I was worried that the writers were going to write Emily sad about her role in her torturer's suicide, and was glad that they didn't.

Right, she’s like a former Nazi prison guard who thinks she is entitled to live in peace after escaping the war. She was only following orders, right? Well, that’s not how it works and she deserved consequences for  what she did.

[Cinnabon]

6 hours ago, Umbelina said:

As I said, I know many wouldn't agree with me about preferring the relative freedom of Jezebel's to daily life as a Handmaid, living with her rapists night and day.  For me though?  Being able to read, have a drink, talk relatively freely, and not have to wear that handmaid uniform, or try to steal butter to use as lotion?  It would have been my choice.

The whole sex thing, being lesbian or not, wouldn't really matter, especially since many of the commanders at Jezebel's liked to have two women at once, or just watch women do it.  I'm straight, but I'd still prefer acting out sex with another woman to living as a handmaid.

I don't think I would have survived as a handmaid, the confinement and boredom and hatefulness and hypocrisy of it all would destroy me faster than "nights only" and at least them calling it was it is, sex for men, not some holy "ceremony."  I fully understand why others would prefer being a handmaid though.

ETA, reading this I still can't be sure, it sounds like after her first escape from the Red Center (handmaid training) they sent Moira directly to Jezebel's.  https://the-handmaids-tale.fandom.com/wiki/Moira_Strand

I’m with you - I would 💯 rather work at Jezebels than be a Handmaid. No question about it!

[Cinnabon]

4 hours ago, Bannon said:

As clumsily as it was written and filmed, upon reflection I have a suspicion as to the purpose of the pro Gilead crowd scene, cheering on the Waterfords. In a world where birth rates are plummeting, to the point that the survival of the species is threatened, or at least functioning human societies as they have been known for several thousand years, the fact that only Gilead is reversing that trend (the science of which I really don't buy, but whatever) means Gilead really can't be compartmentalized by the rest of the world. It's ideology has a significant chance of spreading well beyond Gilead. Which means that, no, living in Canada, and letting Gilead be Gilead, really isn't a viable long term strategy. The entire rest of the world really does need to have Gilead destroyed.

Letting “Gilead be Gilead” shouldn’t be an option that any other country should accept. They would be ignoring slavery, torture, murders, and rapes that go on daily.

56 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

You're the first person I've ever met who also loved Duncan. Daughter's of Eve is dead on in this situation. 

I read that as a kid and had forgotten it! I just downloaded the book via Kindle to reread.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Cinnabon

[Stiggs]

I pretty much expected June to act how she’s acting. Of the Canada folks, she’s done the most Gilead time and has gone through and done some shit that you just can’t talk away - the fact that anyone would expect her to NOT be full of rage and vengeance is nuts. I love Moira, but she needs to take some of her own advice and understand that she actually didn’t experience the same things June did. Not trivializing Moira’s plight, but she’s had literal years to get to a more peaceful place. June is still looking for a fight, and I can’t say I blame her. 
 

Luke is back to Luke-ing. I have sympathy for him and his gorgeous eyelashes, and he needs his own support group, but, man, when he just showed up at court like that, I think I said, “Really, Luke?” out loud. 
 

Speaking of support groups, Moira should focus on coding. 
 

I 100% think Emily was thrilled about the hanging aunt. I think it bothers her that she was thrilled, and that Alexis Bledel should get all the awards for how she approached that scene. (I’m still amazed at how much range she has.) Emily is one of the show’s most interesting characters and I kind of wish Atwood’s sequel would have been about her. 
 

Commander Lawrence - WTF? I don’t have any sort of clue as to what his end game is. I love the actor and enjoy his scenes, though - he and Ann Dowd could reenact a scene from Saved By the Bell and make it riveting. 
 

Maybe we’ll see Nick again. Maybe we’ll find out What Nick Did. 🤷‍♀️
 

I love Jeanine. Seeing her beg to not go back into “service” was heartbreaking. But I think she’s stronger and wiser and hopefully makes Lydia think June was a picnic by comparison. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Stiggs

[BodhiGurl]

27 minutes ago, Stiggs said:

I pretty much expected June to act how she’s acting. Of the Canada folks, she’s done the most Gilead time and has gone through and done some shit that you just can’t talk away - the fact that anyone would expect her to NOT be full of rage and vengeance is nuts. I love Moira, but she needs to take some of her own advice and understand that she actually didn’t experience the same things June did. Not trivializing Moira’s plight, but she’s had literal years to get to a more peaceful place. June is still looking for a fight, and I can’t say I blame her. 

Totally agree. I also don't think she's been in Canada that long, maybe a few weeks. I get her rage. She's done and seen things nobody should, and out of our main characters who have escaped, she's done it much longer (well, perhaps Emily comes in a close second as I don't think she's been in Canada that long either, less than a year given Nichole/Holly's age). Rita experienced Gilead differently so I'm not surprised she isn't as full of anger - at least not yet (if we see that side of her at all, I think we got what we were going to get when she visited the Waterfords). I'm disappointed Moira wasn't more understanding. I may have agreed with her view had June been in Canada for a year already, but she hasn't. I also wish Luke would appear to be more understanding. But, he too is dealing with trauma, in a different way, but still trauma. He just got his wife back and knows his daughter is still stuck in Gilead. I wouldn't be surprised if they inevitably parted ways. They're both totally different people now.

I was bummed to see Janine was captured again. My only hope is that she leads the new rebellion from within. I don't think she was swayed by Aunt Lydia trying to diss June. I also don't think if she were to find out her son was dead and June lied about him to be such a huge grievance that she'd then hate June. I would like to think she'd understand why June lied. She has grown a bit from when we first met her, and almost escaping changed her I'm sure. At least I hope.

The Waterford/Gilead supporters rang a bit false to me. I'd like to think their lawyer set that up somehow, with some pro-life groups or something. Also shocking there were no protestors. Maybe it was just lazy on the writers part. I hope those two get what they deserve, and aren't sent back to Gilead in exchange for Hannah or something ridiculous like that - if they extracted Hannah that easy - what lies ahead for the storyline? Would June still be hell bent on taking Gilead down? Not sure.

 

ETA: I seem to remember Serena having a bit of bump when June visited her, she just had clothes that were more loose on. I think the tighter outfit/more prominent baby bump at the pre-trial was intentional. Which leads me back to thinking June's only been in Canada for a week-ish...

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by BodhiGurl
additional thought

[AntFTW]

9 hours ago, Bannon said:

It really angers me when people seek grace on the discount plan.

Hope you don't mind if I borrow this one 😁

Edited June 3, 2021 by AntFTW

[Zonk]

What was that Lydia-stuff? I know she's a horrible person. But I never got the impression that she did what she did because she enjoyed inflicting pain. I think she enjoyed the control and the power, yes, but not inflicting pain specifically. And she does have the control and the power back. So she should be happy.

That screamed of "We need to get Janine back to aunt Lydia. But how would we do that? She's all the way in Chicago, it would make no sense! I know! We are going to say that aunt Lydia enjoys inflicting pain and that Lawrence gives her Janine as a torture-outlet! Brilliant!"

On 6/2/2021 at 6:31 PM, EllaWycliffe said:

I think they were going for "there's always some crazies" but it just comes off silly and unlikely.

Oh no, I think these writers are going for "Nowhere is safe, Canada is going to turn into Gilead too, because Fred and Serena are just soooo convincing." Sounds like it doesn't fit at all with what we've seen from Canada previously? Sounds batshit insane? Exactly! That's why I think that these writers are going for it. They consistently pick the most insane option.

On 6/2/2021 at 8:58 PM, Baltimore Betty said:

I feel like June's testimony could have been a bit meatier, there was no mention of her treatment at the hands of Aunt Lydia or how Commander Waterford forced her to go to Jezebel's or how handmaids loose eyes, arms and tongues for breaking rules...all of these things that the Waterfords deem appropriate treatment of women because, you know, the bible.

It was specifically about Waterford's crimes. So she had to stick to those.

While taking her to Jezzebells would be a crime under Gilead-law I don't think it would be under canadian law. The forced prostitution that goes on there, yes, but not bringing June there and Moira covered that angle pretty well from what we heard.

On 6/2/2021 at 8:58 PM, Baltimore Betty said:

My surprise by the Waterfords leaving the trial without an escort of police or feds was strange and how did Serena get the teal "wife" maternity dress?  None of the wives were supposed to get pregnant, right?  

No, wifes are allowed to get preggers if they are fertile and in that case the household won't even get a handmaid (unless you are a headhoncho in DC, in which case the laws don't apply to you and you can rape like 10 handmaids at once).

Edited June 3, 2021 by Zonk

[EllaWycliffe]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

I’m with you - I would 💯 rather work at Jezebels than be a Handmaid. No question about it!

I mean, it's kind of a Sophie's Choice situation but...

Raped every day by different men, forced to dress in whatever fantasy clothes they want... sure you get to drink but thats a whole lot of unprotected sex just to read a book or two in your off hours... and we did see Aunts there with cattle prods so I do wonder if while the women are allowed to talk politics and science and the anthropological origination of the Rapa Nui society, they probably aren't allowed to read for pleasure in their off time. 

Or

Raped once a month in a ritualized way where your rapist isn't allowed to enjoy it and you're generally not beaten if you follow orders (I suspect no one minds much if the "rough sex at Jezebel's" leads to a dead whore) and you get to live. 

Its a trade off I agree. I just know a lot of lesbians who would find sex with a guy on any given night with no choice to be their version of Dante's ninth ring.

[JasonCC]

I totally bought an existing pro-Gilead, pro-Waterford crowd. The most screwed up, recovering fundamentalist I ever knew (his parents forced him into conversion therapy for being gay, and it was borderline kidnapping: sent thousands of miles from home, phone taken away, no money, lockdown, the whole works) was indeed Canadian. 

HOWEVER, there would have been counter-protestors. We've seen over and over again Canadians protesting their neighbor to the south.

In fact, it would have been more powerful to have Fred and Serena exit the building, look around and assume it's still the same anti-Gilead types...THEN have a sizeable faction of zealots emerge from the crowd who Fred and Serena suddenly realize are pro-Gilead. The show does creepy so well they could have made SO MUCH MORE visually of it: crosses, signs with babies, women with handmaid caps even, men wearing the creepy Gilead wing insignia .....instead they made it just seem like Fred and Serena have a fan club in Toronto? 

Missed opportunity for some real spine-shivers (although I didn't like the episode as a whole the Lincoln Memorial image from a season or two ago creeps me out to this day). These fascistic trends seldom are contained to only one nation--especially with the global birthrate and environmental problems. It could have been a more powerful moment.

 

ETA: about Handmaid vs Jezebels? Jezebels are heavily supplied with drugs and alcohol. Self-medicating to numb the misery. I can get the appeal of that.

Edited June 3, 2021 by JasonCC

[Cinnabon]

11 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

I mean, it's kind of a Sophie's Choice situation but...

Raped every day by different men, forced to dress in whatever fantasy clothes they want... sure you get to drink but thats a whole lot of unprotected sex just to read a book or two in your off hours... and we did see Aunts there with cattle prods so I do wonder if while the women are allowed to talk politics and science and the anthropological origination of the Rapa Nui society, they probably aren't allowed to read for pleasure in their off time. 

Or

Raped once a month in a ritualized way where your rapist isn't allowed to enjoy it and you're generally not beaten if you follow orders (I suspect no one minds much if the "rough sex at Jezebel's" leads to a dead whore) and you get to live. 

Its a trade off I agree. I just know a lot of lesbians who would find sex with a guy on any given night with no choice to be their version of Dante's ninth ring.

June did say the rapes happened for 3 days a month, those in which she was ovulating. So not just one time a month.

[EllaWycliffe]

15 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

June did say the rapes happened for 3 days a month, those in which she was ovulating. So not just one time a month.

Ok - so three times a month versus every night. With Aunts making sure you keep in line. Like I said - I'm not seeing either as a great move but I bet you live longer as a handmaid.

[Zonk]

43 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Ok - so three times a month versus every night. With Aunts making sure you keep in line. Like I said - I'm not seeing either as a great move but I bet you live longer as a handmaid.

Only if you reproduce. After three postings with no child it's off to the colonies with you.

[EllaWycliffe]

Let's just say I suspect Jezebel's has a similar retirement program and that one's shelf life there is a bit shorter. 

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, Stiggs said:

I love Jeanine. Seeing her beg to not go back into “service” was heartbreaking. But I think she’s stronger and wiser and hopefully makes Lydia think June was a picnic by comparison. 

Wouldn't that be lovely?  I hope so too.

I mean, logically I understand why she's there, just as I understand why there were only two survivors after the handmaid group decided to stay behind for June, once June realized the only way that plane could safely take off is if she drew the attention and fire of the Gilead soldiers.

War, revolution, insurgency, must have consequences, or it's just playing around.  

Janine being back in Gilead, keeps our hearts attached to the plight of everyone trapped in Gilead, she's real to us, not just a new character to get to know.  She's, in many ways, "our" Janine, "our" family member still trapped there.  The living, breathing, reminder of why Gilead must not be allowed to just continue on it's horrifying way.

For that reason, I have hope she survives.  We've had the real losses of Briana and Alma, I think the show needed the most beloved and known to still be trapped there.  There is Hannah of course, but that's in no way the same as Janine's handmaid tale.

[Stiggs]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Janine being back in Gilead, keeps our hearts attached to the plight of everyone trapped in Gilead, she's real to us, not just a new character to get to know.  She's, in many ways, "our" Janine, "our" family member still trapped there.  The living, breathing, reminder of why Gilead must not be allowed to just continue on it's horrifying way.

Yes! That’s the perfect way to describe her.  I do feel like she is “ours.” Everyone I know who watches this show loves her. We need her. If anything happens to her I’ll cry real-deal, Poussey-level tears. It would be gutting. 

[JasonCC]

This is a little into the "worldview" category but was most prevalent in the last two episodes.

I know they really need all our characters to be together in Toronto. I get it. That's where they all escaped to and we WANT those moments where the Waterfords are confronted by June, Rita, etc (remember that scene with Fred and Luke "you RAPED my wife"). We can't lose that for storytelling reasons.

BUT.....if the USA-in-exile capitol is now Anchorage? The Waterfords would be extradited there and standing trial. I'm envisioning a bullet proof plexiglass box in the middle of the courtroom like Eichmann during his trial in Israel for crimes against humanity. Not that they wouldn't deserve it, but their trial and execution would be needed fodder for hope, justice, revenge for all Americans. The USA would play it to the hilt.

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, JasonCC said:

This is a little into the "worldview" category but was most prevalent in the last two episodes.

I know they really need all our characters to be together in Toronto. I get it. That's where they all escaped to and we WANT those moments where the Waterfords are confronted by June, Rita, etc (remember that scene with Fred and Luke "you RAPED my wife"). We can't lose that for storytelling reasons.

BUT.....if the USA-in-exile capitol is now Anchorage? The Waterfords would be extradited there and standing trial. I'm envisioning a bullet proof plexiglass box in the middle of the courtroom like Eichmann during his trial in Israel for crimes against humanity. Not that they wouldn't deserve it, but their trial and execution would be needed fodder for hope, justice, revenge for all Americans. The USA would play it to the hilt.

Well, that could be problematic for Canada, to openly support what's left of the USA over the much stronger Gilead.

I think making it a "world court" thing is everyone's attempt to spread the blame around and also to deflect Gilead's anger from just one country.

[Bannon]

3 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Letting “Gilead be Gilead” shouldn’t be an option that any other country should accept. They would be ignoring slavery, torture, murders, and rapes that go on daily.

I read that as a kid and had forgotten it! I just downloaded the book via Kindle to reread.

The 20th Century featured as many as 150 million political murders, exclusive of wars. Most went largely unprotested, much less seriously contested. The practices continue today, mostly uncontested. Such is the goddamned human species.

3 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Hope you don't mind if I borrow this one 😁

Not at all. Maybe there'll be a day when we see less of it.

[Penman61]

Moira, leading group: People are so much more than the worst thing they've ever done.

Jeffrey Dahmer: Room for one more?

Hitler: If you can't handle me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best.

Lizzie Borden: If I leave my ax outside...?

Edited June 4, 2021 by Penman61

[Kel Varnsen]

22 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I was thinking the same. If they agree with the Gilead way of life, why are they in Canada?

Because they want Canada to adopt a Gilead style system. And as much as Fred and Serena getting to do their parade was stupid I liked the reminder that extremist whack jobs wouldn't just be exclusive. Because even real Canada has people with our there extreme political views.

10 hours ago, TV Anonymous said:

The last scene where the meeting happened and Emily said she was happy Aunt Irene had been dead, the view outside the window was clearly bright. And since this was winter in Toronto, it could not have been later than 16:00. As Moira said, "The hour is over," then the meeting could not have started later than 15:00, still within a library opening hours.

I don't live in Toronto, but I do live in Ontario. And in my city library branches aren't open to the public 7 days a week. 

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

The 20th Century featured as many as 150 million political murders, exclusive of wars. Most went largely unprotested, much less seriously contested. The practices continue today, mostly uncontested. Such is the goddamned human species.

Not at all. Maybe there'll be a day when we see less of it.

You’re right, and this shouldn’t be the case.

[Cinnabon]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Well, that could be problematic for Canada, to openly support what's left of the USA over the much stronger Gilead.

I think making it a "world court" thing is everyone's attempt to spread the blame around and also to deflect Gilead's anger from just one country.

If the rest of the world joined forces against Gilead and sent a huge military force into the country via Canada, how would Gilead react? Use nukes and destroy their own country as well as the opposing military?

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

If the rest of the world joined forces against Gilead and sent a huge military force into the country via Canada, how would Gilead react? Use nukes and destroy their own country as well as the opposing military?

That's why they have Fred there.  He knows those answers.

The rest of the world?  Does not.  

Gilead is a "Black Box" to them.

[Cinnabon]

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

That's why they have Fred there.  He knows those answers.

The rest of the world?  Does not.  

Gilead is a "Black Box" to them.

But if the rest of the world joined forces against a Gilead in a land war, they would easily outnumber Gilead’s military. Would Gilead then give everything up and end it by nuking themselves?

[RachelKM]

7 hours ago, mamadrama said:

You're the first person I've ever met who also loved Duncan. Daughter's of Eve is dead on in this situation. 

Huge Duncan fan here.  But I don't think i read that one. Now I have to go look it up. 

[Umbelina]

5 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

But if the rest of the world joined forces against a Gilead in a land war, they would easily outnumber Gilead’s military. Would Gilead then give everything up and end it by nuking themselves?

Again, that's why they have Fred there.  HE actually knows what his fellow commanders might do, and knows troop forces, supplies, weapon availability, opinions on nukes, all of it.

The world has no idea what Gilead might do.  It's all complete guesswork.  That society has been more closed than almost any in history, and they don't even know who all the commanders are, let alone what they do, or are responsible for, or how they feel about nukes, etc.