S04.E08: Testimony

[EllaWycliffe]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Again, that's why they have Fred there.  HE actually knows what his fellow commanders might do, and knows troop forces, supplies, weapon availability, opinions on nukes, all of it.

Except that its been at least five months since his capture. Fred has no idea who is currently in charge - a coup could have happened for all he knows. Also Fred's actual job seemed focused on breeding and handmaids so why would he know anything beyond basics about weapons availability? Nick would be much more useful.

Spoiler

In the promo for next week, Fred clearly has no idea what his fellow commanders are doing, he was expecting negotiations for his release that aren't happening.

 

[Umbelina]

5 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Except that its been at least five months since his capture. Fred has no idea who is currently in charge - a coup could have happened for all he knows. Also Fred's actual job seemed focused on breeding and handmaids so why would he know anything beyond basics about weapons availability? Nick would be much more useful.

  Hide contents

In the promo for next week, Fred clearly has no idea what his fellow commanders are doing, he was expecting negotiations for his release that aren't happening.

 

Nick's low level, and yes, he would be useful, he's an eye after all, but it seems the "world" doesn't trust him.  

Fred knows the players, and what they think, what they do.  That hasn't changed.  He would also know about any plans to destroy or use nukes or other weapons.

Basically, he's what they've got, courtesy of Serena's cooperation.  

ETA, stuff like "this one is gay, this one drinks, this one kills his handmaids, this one's wife is crazy," and other possible blackmail things are unchanged as well.  The "world" doesn't even know who calls the shots in Gilead, nothing.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Umbelina

[EllaWycliffe]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Fred knows the players, and what they think, what they do.  That hasn't changed.  He would also know about any plans to destroy or use nukes or other weapons.

Basically, he's what they've got, courtesy of Serena's cooperation.  

ETA, stuff like "this one is gay, this one drinks, this one kills his handmaids, this one's wife is crazy," and other possible blackmail things are unchanged as well.  The "world" doesn't even know who calls the shots in Gilead, nothing.

But there's really no evidence that outside his small circle in Boston that Fred would know who's got a crazy wife or who is gay. There's also no indication Fred had anything to do with nuclear weapons.

And Nick isn't a low level driver any more - he saved Lawrence and he manipulated the council into calling a momentary stop to the Chicago attacks to get June out. Thats actually far more power than Fred ever displayed.

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

But there's really no evidence that outside his small circle in Boston that Fred would know who's got a crazy wife or who is gay. There's also no indication Fred had anything to do with nuclear weapons.

And Nick isn't a low level driver any more - he saved Lawrence and he manipulated the council into calling a momentary stop to the Chicago attacks to get June out. Thats actually far more power than Fred ever displayed.

None of this matters.  At all.

Fred was the one they had the chance to capture, so they did, by manipulating Serena.

Nick offered to testify for June but that lady from, what was it?  Switzerland?  Would not even speak to him.

Tuello?  Probably would.  Maybe he will.

Meanwhile, the ONLY commander they had a chance to capture without incident, thanks to Serena selling him out is Fred.  Fred has worked with those other commanders for over 6 years, after all, he was in on the planning, in it from before the take over even happened.

Surely even doofus Fred knows more than "the world" about what is/has/might happen with Gilead.  If they could capture more?  They might do that.  Spies don't get to pick and choose when dealing with a closed regime.

[Umbelina]

Basically, taking Fred was a huge gamble.  Among other things, Canada is letting an enemy of Gilead, the USA, operate spy ops and kidnap one of their leaders, and now hold him in custody.

That's why Canada brought in the World Court here, trying to spread the blame around, avoid being the only target.

Whatever Fred knows?  It's more than "the world" knows about Gilead, and any little tidbit could be valuable.  Would they rather have captured someone else?  Who knows?  They don't.  They don't even know about the others, they may have a few names from handmaids, but those probably do not know exactly what those commanders are responsible for, in charge of.  Fred does.  Or he did.

He was hand delivered to them by a disgruntled wife, a gift, a trade for her freedom.  If some other wife had offered?  They would have probably taken that one up on it.  

ETA

I don't think Fred was in charge of Handmaids.  He was just in charge of building that new center for them.  I could be mistaken, but he seems to have something to do with supplies, and especially with trade negotiations.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Umbelina

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

But if the rest of the world joined forces against a Gilead in a land war, they would easily outnumber Gilead’s military. Would Gilead then give everything up and end it by nuking themselves?

The interesting thing is that we don't know where the rest of the world stands with respect to Gilead. Like there are surely some countries that are enjoying the fact that the US has become completely destabilized. And if Gilead went to war with the rest of NATO I could see a situation where like Russia or something was supplying both sides. I am surprised that all this time with Fred in custody I Canada hasn't led to a massive info dump scene either from Fred or the CIA guy.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Kel Varnsen

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The interesting thing is that we don't know where the rest of the world stands with respect to Gilead. Like there are surely some countries that are enjoying the fact that the US has become completely destabilized. And if Gilead went to war with the rest of NATO I could see a situation where like Russia or something was supplying both sides.

Yeah, we've had a few little clues through the years about where they stand though.  They REALLY want information, which is logical, especially if they were even to consider a war.  They don't trust, and won't deal with Nick.  They are united in the trade boycott against Gilead, and have been, apparently, from the beginning.

[Cinnabon]

20 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The interesting thing is that we don't know where the rest of the world stands with respect to Gilead. Like there are surely some countries that are enjoying the fact that the US has become completely destabilized. And if Gilead went to war with the rest of NATO I could see a situation where like Russia or something was supplying both sides. I am surprised that all this time with Fred in custody I Canada hasn't led to a massive info dump scene either from Fred or the CIA guy.

I meant the USA’s allies. I agree that some countries would absolutely enjoy the downfall.

[chaifan]

I thought overall this was a good episode.  I like that things are moving forward at a reasonable pace, and that this isn't 100% June 100% of the time.  I love seeing more of Emily, and I really like where they took her.  I don't know where they're heading with Moira, as she alternates between sympathizing with June and being so very frustrated with her.  I like the complexity with June and Luke, both are imperfect, but both show signs of learning and moving forward. 

Some random thoughts...

June's testimony - my understanding is that the purpose of this proceeding was simply to establish that there is credible evidence that Fred has committed war crimes, and should be tried for those crimes.  So the only focus is on what Fred did.  June's testimony established he raped, beat, tortured, confined her against her will, etc.  Check, check, and check.

I can buy into the pro-Gilead protestors being at the courthouse.  Even if the hearing wasn't made public, Fred's attorney would make sure supporters would be there.  But, I don't buy Fred & Serena walking in/out of the courthouse looking so free, and being so out in the open.  Serena's already had an attempt on her life.  With all the Gilead refugees in Canada, there could easily be someone in the crowd wanting to take them out.  I actually was convinced that was going to happen in the last scene - the music, Serena in her teal maternity outfit (and where in the hell did that come from???), Serena and Fred holding hands... I was sure Serena was going to get shot in the stomach again. 

Fred's comment re: Gilead is the "only" country with increasing fertility rates.  I'm not buying that.  Just because Fred says it doesn't mean it's true.  I can't believe that killing off so much of your healthy population, ignoring male infertility as a cause, and using rape as your primary form of procreation would achieve greater fertility results than countries who use medical science to identify who is fertile, incentivize pregnancy, use IVF, etc. 

The support group - I can see this type of group happening.  I'm sure everyone has access to one on one therapy, but a survivor's group makes sense to me.  And I liked that June got everyone riled up again.  And I love that it was set in a library - such a fuck you to Gilead and women can't read rules.  To me, it was no question they were there after hours.

Aunt Irene - OK, yeah, June was bat shit crazy, but she wasn't wrong.  Forgiveness?  Seriously?  I don't think Irene would have any value to the anti-Gilead groups.  She has remorse, but obviously still believes to some extent the basic premise behind the handmaid program.  I don't think she would testify against individual commanders.  I wish we knew why she left Gilead (and how).

Jeanine - damn damn damn.  I know they weren't going to have a whole other subplot around the Chicago rebels, but I hate that she's back in Boston with Aunt Lydia.  Here's what I want to see happen:  Jeanine convinces Lydia and the rest that she hates June for abandoning her, and that she can totally tank June's testimony against Fred and Serena, gets them to take her to Canada to testify against June, where she does a full 180, screams "fuck Gilead", backs up June and requests asylum.  Aunt Lydia, who is chaperoning her, gets taken into custody.

Commander Lawrence - wow.  He is now just a full on asshole.  Giving Jeanine to Lydia to do with as she pleases.  ugh.  I realize they had to get Jeanine and Lydia back together somehow, but this just doesn't fit.  I don't know where they're taking him, but I wish he'd go back to that ambiguous state where we really didn't know where he stood, if he was good or bad or what.  But I did like him calling Lydia on her "oh, the cattle prod slipped" BS.

Serena's wardrobe - ok, I'm just being catty here, but I do not believe for one minute that Canada would provide Serena - a war crime prisoner - not just one but two custom made teal outfits for court, including a matching cape.  It's not like you can pop into Target and buy one off the rack, and there's no way these were outfits she had with her since they wouldn't fit her pregnancy.  Serena's wardrobe while in "confinement" has been over the top nice, but at least plausible (except for the 4" stilettos she was wearing a few eps back). 

Serena's finger - I had totally forgotten about it until June's testimony.   How are they handling that?  Are they just not showing her one hand?  Does she have a new glove?  I haven't been looking. 

Someone upthread noted Fred's defense attorney looked like Nikki Haley.  Did anyone else think one of the pro-Gilead protestors looked a lot like Marjorie Taylor Greene?  Again, coincidence?  I think not. 

Rita - Rita was noticeably absent in this episode.  She also should have been at the hearing.  I want more Rita.

 

[Bannon]

Just now, Kel Varnsen said:

The interesting thing is that we don't know where the rest of the world stands with respect to Gilead. Like there are surely some countries that are enjoying the fact that the US has become completely destabilized. And if Gilead went to war with the rest of NATO I could see a situation where like Russia or something was supplying both sides.

There are so many possible scenarios that might arise from a situation if the rate of aging of the human population, already pretty fast, kicked in to hyperspeed, that the writers kind of have the luxury of letting the audience fill in the blanks. They just want avoid obvious inconsistency

 

[mamadrama]

8 hours ago, RachelKM said:

Huge Duncan fan here.  But I don't think i read that one. Now I have to go look it up. 

I recommend her memoir, Who Killed My Daughter, if you haven't read it. Totally different from her paranormal books (Daughters of Eve isn't paranormal either) but it's very good. 

I'm starting to feel like there's something wrong with me. On a scale of 1-10 I liked this episode around a 6, but I haven't been higher than that since the 2nd season. I'm completely whelmed by the whole thing. I think I've become Handmaid weary and am just burned out. Having to wait a year between seasons, and 2 years for this last one (which I know isn't their fault), is just killing my interest. The cinematography that I used to find beautiful and interesting just falls flat to me now. I don't like June, but I like Lizzie's acting even less. I can't care about her character anymore. I'm much more interested in Emily, Lydia, and Serena Joy. The latter two might be villains but I still find them more interesting to watch. 

If I start a series then I'll stick with it until the bitter end, but I miss actually looking forward to midnight. 

[Kel Varnsen]

7 hours ago, chaifan said:

Fred's comment re: Gilead is the "only" country with increasing fertility rates.  I'm not buying that.  Just because Fred says it doesn't mean it's true.  I

Even if it is true, I have to imagine that all the government approved murders, sending people to the colonies, the fact that they are at war and people chosing to kill themselves instead of being slaves is probably not great for your population growth rate.

[Bannon]

22 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

I recommend her memoir, Who Killed My Daughter, if you haven't read it. Totally different from her paranormal books (Daughters of Eve isn't paranormal either) but it's very good. 

I'm starting to feel like there's something wrong with me. On a scale of 1-10 I liked this episode around a 6, but I haven't been higher than that since the 2nd season. I'm completely whelmed by the whole thing. I think I've become Handmaid weary and am just burned out. Having to wait a year between seasons, and 2 years for this last one (which I know isn't their fault), is just killing my interest. The cinematography that I used to find beautiful and interesting just falls flat to me now. I don't like June, but I like Lizzie's acting even less. I can't care about her character anymore. I'm much more interested in Emily, Lydia, and Serena Joy. The latter two might be villains but I still find them more interesting to watch. 

If I start a series then I'll stick with it until the bitter end, but I miss actually looking forward to midnight. 

I think we experience these shows much differently when we binge them, as  I did the first 3 sessons in about 3 weeks during the pandemic, than we do 1 week at a time, at discrete intervals over several years. The former method allows me to be more forgiving, because you just move on to the next episode. The latter method really accentuates shortcomings in writing and direction. Even when I was binging, I was aware of those shortcomings, but I was better able to ignore them. That's been harder to do this season.

What I most liked about the show was the way it really nailed, in the 1st two seasons, the psychological brutality of totalitarian regimes, far better than most dystopian fiction does. Atwater is probably due the most credit for that. As the show has moved more towards plot mechanics (and it's never been very good at writing and directing action scenes), it has appealed to me less. It's still good enough for me to watch, though, and I will give up on a show.

[JasonCC]

I re-watched. Man, Madeline Brewer (Jenine) and Ann Dowd (Aunt Lydia) and Alexis Bledel (Emily) really bring it. I love Elizabeth Moss...but I think there's been a saturation point and it's not her fault. 

With all the trouble she's caused I don't see Jenine getting another assignment. Now that we know these breeding farm prisons have been established she'd be sent there. Yet I could also see Aunt Lydia wanting to keep her close and hand-picking an assignment? Once pregnant Jenine might be easier to control? All I know if Jenine is pregnant again, she better keep her baby. I think I could handle the character's death, I don't think I could handle her raped and having another loss of a child. 

The comment from Commander Lawrence to Aunt Lydia about how much easier (I think that's the word he used? more complacent?) the new crop of handmaids are getting was also chilling. I can't quite suss out the timeline but I think their post-pubescent years would have been all Gilead. I remember Aunt Lydia in the book telling June, Alma, etc at Red Center that they have it the hardest and it'll be easier for upcoming generations....trying to make them feel like brave pioneers or something. So gross.

Edited June 4, 2021 by JasonCC

[Baltimore Betty]

9 hours ago, chaifan said:

Serena's wardrobe - ok, I'm just being catty here, but I do not believe for one minute that Canada would provide Serena - a war crime prisoner - not just one but two custom made teal outfits for court, including a matching cape.  It's not like you can pop into Target and buy one off the rack, and there's no way these were outfits she had with her since they wouldn't fit her pregnancy.  Serena's wardrobe while in "confinement" has been over the top nice, but at least plausible (except for the 4" stilettos she was wearing a few eps back). 

That's what I said! I would think Canada would not be a place to find the Commanders Wives clothing line at any retailer.

Why aren't both Fred and Serena in some sort of uniform prison?  

 

[Pepper the Cat]

18 hours ago, mamadrama said:

You're the first person I've ever met who also loved Duncan. Daughter's of Eve is dead on in this situation. 

Huge Lois Duncan fan here! Agree Daughters of Eve fits this perfectly! Have you read her updated version?

[Stephanie23]

35 minutes ago, Baltimore Betty said:

 

Why aren't both Fred and Serena in some sort of uniform prison?  

 

They are in detention not prison or jail.

 

2 hours ago, mamadrama said:

 

I'm starting to feel like there's something wrong with me. On a scale of 1-10 I liked this episode around a 6, but I haven't been higher than that since the 2nd season. I'm completely whelmed by the whole thing. I think I've become Handmaid weary and am just burned out. Having to wait a year between seasons, and 2 years for this last one (which I know isn't their fault), is just killing my interest. The cinematography that I used to find beautiful and interesting just falls flat to me now. I don't like June, but I like Lizzie's acting even less. I can't care about her character anymore. I'm much more interested in Emily, Lydia, and Serena Joy. The latter two might be villains but I still find them more interesting to watch. 

If I start a series then I'll stick with it until the bitter end, but I miss actually looking forward to midnight. 

Oh you definitely aren't the only one. I started to dislike June since the second half of season 3 and now in this season she is to me the least interesting character compared to Waterfords, Lawrence, Lydia, Nick, Emily, Janine etc.

I kinda wish her story would have some kind of a closure this season but unfortunately that's not gonna happen.

[chaifan]

2 hours ago, JasonCC said:

The comment from Commander Lawrence to Aunt Lydia about how much easier (I think that's the word he used? more complacent?) the new crop of handmaids are getting was also chilling. I can't quite suss out the timeline but I think their post-pubescent years would have been all Gilead. I remember Aunt Lydia in the book telling June, Alma, etc at Red Center that they have it the hardest and it'll be easier for upcoming generations....trying to make them feel like brave pioneers or something. So gross.

 

Some comments upthread were trying to figure out how long Gilead has existed.  That's really not the issue, though.  Remember Nick's young wife?  She was young, but not extremely young (I'm going to guess 17 or 18), and although Gilead had only existed for a few years she had been raised in the Gilead-style religion and beliefs.  So Comm. Lawrence was either referring to that - that they're at the point where they're breeding their own handmaids through the pre-Gilead ultra religious communities (even ultra religious girls "fall", so those would be the handmaids) where girls were taught to be obedient; or, things got really brutal after the Angel Flight and handmaids are afraid to take the smallest step out of line. 

[greekmom]

I keep forgetting to mention.

If Lawrence is punished by Gilead for June's testimony so should Nick.  He participated (or forced by Serena) to impregnant June. Nick could have come clean to Fred before performing the act which then would have resulted in punishment for Serena. 

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, Pepper the Cat said:

Huge Lois Duncan fan here! Agree Daughters of Eve fits this perfectly! Have you read her updated version?

Didn't know there was one! I hated how they adapted I Know What You Did Last Summer and fucked it up by turning it into a slasher film with a hook and fisherman. The OG story was great. 

I loved the look on Serena's face when Fred was yammering on his bullshit during the testimony. She had this "this is so embarassing, this fuck face is going to get us both executed" look. Hated seeing the supportive crowd but not surprised. Terrible people almost always have at least some supporters. Her questioning him about whether he believed what he was saying made me laugh. To me it came across as are you REALLY dumb enough to believe that shit you said? Then, later, walking through the crowd, Well, my husband IS a dumbass after all but to my benefit at least his weak mind is going to work to my advantage! 

A coupe? Civil war? Stripping of women's rights? Kidnapping? Treachery? Mass murder? Sexual slavery? Physical, emotional, and religious abuse? This selfish bitch sure put in a lot of effort to get a baby. If anyone can understand the lengths that June has gone through to get HER baby then it should be this heifer...

[AntFTW]

On 6/3/2021 at 8:41 AM, Umbelina said:

Her first, single minded, won't take no for an answer, I will find a way, audacious escape plan worked, because fear was gone.  Only determination and refusal to give up made that happen.  It worked.

I think she's got that same determination now, only this time, it's bigger.  She's been so determined to join the fighters in Chicago, to join the fight to defeat Gilead.  I don't see her giving that up.

I think that determination got bigger and is fueled by each crack in the system she saw and with each plan that worked.

In seemingly hopeless circumstances, there were times where characters, including June, lost hope. As she got out there and took chances, she saw that Gilead is not "invincible." She saw that commanders aren't straight and narrow, marthas have a network to move messages and goods, etc. Basically, she got to see the cracks in the Gilead facade. Once a person sees cracks in a system that they believe should be burned to the ground, there's no going back. Every crack in the system is exploited until the system implodes.

After successfully smuggling 80+ people out of the country, that determination is never going away. She got a slice of what it feels like to get one up on Gilead. Now, she wants the whole pie.

[Baltimore Betty]

59 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I think that determination got bigger and is fueled by each crack in the system she saw and with each plan that worked.

In seemingly hopeless circumstances, there were times where characters, including June, lost hope. As she got out there and took chances, she saw that Gilead is not "invincible." She saw that commanders aren't straight and narrow, marthas have a network to move messages and goods, etc. Basically, she got to see the cracks in the Gilead facade. Once a person sees cracks in a system that they believe should be burned to the ground, there's no going back. Every crack in the system is exploited until the system implodes.

After successfully smuggling 80+ people out of the country, that determination is never going away. She got a slice of what it feels like to get one up on Gilead. Now, she wants the whole pie.

Absolutely!!

June will not back down now, she wants a scorched earth ending to Gilead but anyone that helps, joins up with her winds up dead, it may be hard to get people to join her in her mission.

As powerful as Moira has been, escaping on her own, murdering a Commander, running thru the snow to the Canadian border we see a different Moira now, she wants to help heal the escapees of Gilead, it is noble but June wants to be on the front lines, will Moira distance herself from June?

[Dmarie019]

On 6/2/2021 at 6:43 PM, mamadrama said:

Lawrence saying that the new Handmaids have known it for "half their lives." So, what, they're all 10 (at most)? 

 

On 6/3/2021 at 8:10 AM, Umbelina said:

Finally googled "how long has Gilead been in power?"  Now I know where I got my "five years" thing.

Witness, episode 10, season 3.  5 years last season.

So, maybe 5 1/2 or 6 years now?  

So in the episode where they went to the grocery store, they get to the chip aisle and June is shocked by the chip options and she says something like "what happened to chips?" and Luke responds with something like "yea... they've changed a lot in 7 years"

So I took that to mean June hasn't been around for 7 years. But give or take a year of them being on the run before June was captured...maybe they didn't have chips during that time either..  that would make the new handmaids probably 13/14 if they have known gilead for half their lives. Which is probably perfect baby making age for them. 

Maybe they show answered this but it's so hard to remember stuff from past seasons... during June testimony she said the Waterford's were her 2nd placement.  So did she not produce a child at her first placement???

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, Baltimore Betty said:

As powerful as Moira has been, escaping on her own, murdering a Commander, running thru the snow to the Canadian border we see a different Moira now, she wants to help heal the escapees of Gilead, it is noble but June wants to be on the front lines, will Moira distance herself from June?

I don't think Moira would distance herself from June entirely. Their personal lives are intertwined. Truthfully, Moira can exit that situation, leaving Nichole to June and Luke, and letting those two sort their trauma and marital issues out.

I think that their post-Gilead personalities reflect their "escape routes" from Gilead. June didn't intend to go to Canada. June went looking for backup to fight Gilead, and lucked out and ended up in Canada. June had an earlier opportunity to escape and she went back for other people. June stayed in the fight. Moira never intended to fight Gilead. Moira was looking for her own autonomy back and her own peace. Everything that Moira did was so that Moira can survive.

June was fighting Gilead and Moira was surviving Gilead. June is trying to fight. Moira is trying to be at peace.

[EllaWycliffe]

7 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I don't think Moira would distance herself from June entirely. Their personal lives are intertwined. Truthfully, Moira can exit that situation, leaving Nichole to June and Luke, and letting those two sort their trauma and marital issues out.

An argument can made that the whole Nicole/Moira/Luke/June thing is a little unhealthy for all concerned.

[EllaWycliffe]

2 hours ago, Dmarie019 said:

Maybe they show answered this but it's so hard to remember stuff from past seasons... during June testimony she said the Waterford's were her 2nd placement.  So did she not produce a child at her first placement???

She didn't. I think it was stated by Serena as a reason to convince her to bang Nick on the sly, and I think it was implied by Lydia as well. 

In the book- just a minor tidbit - it was said a handmaid gets three posting to produce a baby and then she's... well, never expressly stated but you know Gilead. The show implies this in the first season but never really follows up.

One would think that successful Handmaids would be in more demand.

[Cinnabon]

30 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I don't think Moira would distance herself from June entirely. Their personal lives are intertwined. Truthfully, Moira can exit that situation, leaving Nichole to June and Luke, and letting those two sort their trauma and marital issues out.

I think that their post-Gilead personalities reflect their "escape routes" from Gilead. June didn't intend to go to Canada. June went looking for backup to fight Gilead, and lucked out and ended up in Canada. June had an earlier opportunity to escape and she went back for other people. June stayed in the fight. Moira never intended to fight Gilead. Moira was looking for her own autonomy back and her own peace. Everything that Moira did was so that Moira can survive.

June was fighting Gilead and Moira was surviving Gilead. June is trying to fight. Moira is trying to be at peace.

And some people have been calling June the “selfish “‘one . I disagree with that opinion.

[greekmom]

6 hours ago, mamadrama said:

A coupe? Civil war? Stripping of women's rights? Kidnapping? Treachery? Mass murder? Sexual slavery? Physical, emotional, and religious abuse? This selfish bitch sure put in a lot of effort to get a baby. If anyone can understand the lengths that June has gone through to get HER baby then it should be this heifer...

Right?!!? When they could of just paid off someone like Moira and had a healthy baby. Or had herself and Fred tested and did some IVF.

[Cinnabon]

18 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Right?!!? When they could of just paid off someone like Moira and had a healthy baby. Or had herself and Fred tested and did some IVF.

No IVF in Gilead.

[greekmom]

24 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

No IVF in Gilead.

I meant prior to Gilead. 

[Pepper the Cat]

8 hours ago, mamadrama said:

Didn't know there was one! I hated how they adapted I Know What You Did Last Summer and fucked it up by turning it into a slasher film with a hook and fisherman. The OG story was great. 

She updated all her books. I have them all on my Kindle. She did a good job I think. I have them all on my Kindle.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Pepper the Cat

[SourK]

4 hours ago, Dmarie019 said:

So I took that to mean June hasn't been around for 7 years. But give or take a year of them being on the run before June was captured...maybe they didn't have chips during that time either..  that would make the new handmaids probably 13/14 if they have known gilead for half their lives. Which is probably perfect baby making age for them. 

 

Here's what I'm confused about: if they're that young, and they were raised in Gilead, and they basically follow the rules... why are they Handmaids? Why aren't they being married off to creeps? What is the rule Gilead's using to decide who becomes a Handmaid, now, if the justification that it's because of what they did pre-Gilead is gone?

[EllaWycliffe]

1 minute ago, SourK said:

Here's what I'm confused about: if they're that young, and they were raised in Gilead, and they basically follow the rules... why are they Handmaids? Why aren't they being married off to creeps? What is the rule Gilead's using to decide who becomes a Handmaid, now, if the justification that it's because of what they did pre-Gilead is gone?

This is a fair point. How many 13 years commit adultery (Amy Fisher notwithstanding)?

[Umbelina]

17 minutes ago, SourK said:

Here's what I'm confused about: if they're that young, and they were raised in Gilead, and they basically follow the rules... why are they Handmaids? Why aren't they being married off to creeps? What is the rule Gilead's using to decide who becomes a Handmaid, now, if the justification that it's because of what they did pre-Gilead is gone?

They can make up whatever the want to, but holding hands with a boy, or reading something, or even talking inappropriately could do it.  Also, many of them are old enough to be romantically or sexually involved with someone, a driver, the boy next door.  Maybe a devout parent caught them masturbating.

Or maybe they just needed or wanted more handmaids.  I'd bet most are from the economy class though.

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

No IVF in Gilead.

I think she meant pre-Gilead. 

[EllaWycliffe]

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

They can make up whatever the want to, but holding hands with a boy, or reading something, or even talking inappropriately could do it.  Also, many of them are old enough to be romantically or sexually involved with someone, a driver, the boy next door.  Maybe a devout parent caught them masturbating.

Or maybe they just needed or wanted more handmaids.  I'd bet most are from the economy class though.

This sort of tactic only works for so long. You can't rule over the proletariat if the proletariat dies out. You can't take all the viable fertile daughters of the lower class for handmaid duty for the upper class without depleting the lower class workers. 

On an aside, I did notice that none of the Canadian trial sorts disagreed with Fred when he was going on about the world wide fertility problem. Its apparently not just a North American problem.

[chaifan]

1 hour ago, SourK said:

Here's what I'm confused about: if they're that young, and they were raised in Gilead, and they basically follow the rules... why are they Handmaids? Why aren't they being married off to creeps? What is the rule Gilead's using to decide who becomes a Handmaid, now, if the justification that it's because of what they did pre-Gilead is gone?

You have to remember that, at least to the public eye, Handmaids are revered.  They're only shit on behind the scenes.  I would suppose that girls raised in the ultra religious communities that pre-existed Gilead were taught that being a Handmaid is a noble calling, serving god, blah blah blah.  So they wouldn't see The Ceremony as rape or punishment or anything bad, it's God's calling. 

But my guess is also that the girls chosen as Handmaids have "sinned" somehow.  Umbelina listed a few plausible scenarios. 

It's sort of like sending your daughter off to the convent.  In one way it's punishment for screwing up (or just screwing), but nuns are also supposed to be so respected and revered.  It's a bit of a mixed message.

[EllaWycliffe]

5 minutes ago, chaifan said:

You have to remember that, at least to the public eye, Handmaids are revered.  They're only shit on behind the scenes.

I disagree a little in that all the Wives pretty openly treat the Handmaids like shit. All the econowives and Marthas either feel sorry for Handmaids or loudly speculate what sort of whorish behavior made them Handmaids. Aunts are allowed to openly hit revered Handmaids with cattle prods and no one says boo - Lydia does it all the time and only got stares and looks of disapproval when she did it at the stately manor with the baby being honored at a party. Its also understood than Handmaids are being punished for whatever their crimes supposedly are.

Little girls aren't going to be taught to want to be Handmaids. 

[Umbelina]

47 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

This sort of tactic only works for so long. You can't rule over the proletariat if the proletariat dies out. You can't take all the viable fertile daughters of the lower class for handmaid duty for the upper class without depleting the lower class workers. 

On an aside, I did notice that none of the Canadian trial sorts disagreed with Fred when he was going on about the world wide fertility problem. Its apparently not just a North American problem.

Nothing these idiots have done is sustainable.

Decimating the young female population for the use of older men is not uncommon in religious cults.

[Umbelina]

52 minutes ago, chaifan said:

You have to remember that, at least to the public eye, Handmaids are revered.  They're only shit on behind the scenes.  I would suppose that girls raised in the ultra religious communities that pre-existed Gilead were taught that being a Handmaid is a noble calling, serving god, blah blah blah.  So they wouldn't see The Ceremony as rape or punishment or anything bad, it's God's calling. 

But my guess is also that the girls chosen as Handmaids have "sinned" somehow.  Umbelina listed a few plausible scenarios. 

It's sort of like sending your daughter off to the convent.  In one way it's punishment for screwing up (or just screwing), but nuns are also supposed to be so respected and revered.  It's a bit of a mixed message.

They pretend that, but handmaids are usually considered whores, and sinners that deserve to be handmaids.

[lucindabelle]

The timing of the dystopia is a huge issue for me; I try to handwave it. We have seen several times young girls brought up as believers but the whole society is less than 10 years old- it’s undeniable because Hannah.

and I’m sorry, there’s no way a savvy modern 10 year old, who likely had an iPhone, has been on internet since birth, would forget everything in 5 years. How stupid is commander Lawrence? Prepubescent or not. I teach, and 10 is not 5.

give it ANOTHER 5 years, when girls Hannah’s age are 17, and we can talk.

I think the show just forgot that handmaids are meant to be sinners.

I also felt the huge inconsistency with how Canadians felt about gilead and the demonstration. The crowd should have been small and fringey, ar best. Why would anyone scream we love you Serena?

rwmwmbwring the powerful scene where a little girl asked her if she were a princess and her mother pulled her away in horror.

I know there are nuts everywhere but to me this would be like having people demonstrate pro terrorist after 9/11. There may well have been sympathizers with osama bin laden but they weren’t out in public demonstrating.

Gilead destroyed America. I just don’t believe anyone right over the border is going to be holding up signs go Gilead.

absolutely down with June encouraging the survivors to feel what they feel.

as a Jew I thought aunt Irene had a LOT of nerve asking for forgiveness. Somethings are not forgivable. I imagine her as a Nazi and no. Just no. Glad you repent but that doesn’t mean you can actually atone. Get your god to forgive you because I won’t. 

[madpsych78]

Adding to the discussion about Moira, I think it's also important to remember that even though Moira was in Gilead, she was not in Gilead for very long. I'm not even sure she became an "of" someone before she escaped. (Or maybe I'm thinking of that she was transferred to Jezebel's.) Moira's experiences in Gilead's were entirely different from June's or Emily's.

Speaking of which, what was the significance (if anything) of Fred still referring to June as "Offred" when she was "Ofjoseph" more recently than that?

Even though some of the fans had signs praising the "Waterfords," other signs just had Serena's name alone. There were no signs that were strictly pro-Fred. Serena is regarded as the star, just like they were pre-Gilead.

Lawrence. Very interesting character and Bradley Whitford is killing it.

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, lucindabelle said:

The timing of the dystopia is a huge issue for me; I try to handwave it. We have seen several times young girls brought up as believers but the whole society is less than 10 years old- it’s undeniable because Hannah.

and I’m sorry, there’s no way a savvy modern 10 year old, who likely had an iPhone, has been on internet since birth, would forget everything in 5 years. How stupid is commander Lawrence? Prepubescent or not. I teach, and 10 is not 5.

give it ANOTHER 5 years, when girls Hannah’s age are 17, and we can talk.

I think the show just forgot that handmaids are meant to be sinners.

I also felt the huge inconsistency with how Canadians felt about gilead and the demonstration. The crowd should have been small and fringey, ar best. Why would anyone scream we love you Serena?

rwmwmbwring the powerful scene where a little girl asked her if she were a princess and her mother pulled her away in horror.

I know there are nuts everywhere but to me this would be like having people demonstrate pro terrorist after 9/11. There may well have been sympathizers with osama bin laden but they weren’t out in public demonstrating.

Gilead destroyed America. I just don’t believe anyone right over the border is going to be holding up signs go Gilead.

absolutely down with June encouraging the survivors to feel what they feel.

as a Jew I thought aunt Irene had a LOT of nerve asking for forgiveness. Somethings are not forgivable. I imagine her as a Nazi and no. Just no. Glad you repent but that doesn’t mean you can actually atone. Get your god to forgive you because I won’t. 

I’m sure if put on the stand for her actions, Irene would have said she was just following orders. Where have we heard that before?

[BrindaWalsh]

3 hours ago, Pepper the Cat said:

She updated all her books. I have them all on my Kindle. She did a good job I think. I have them all on my Kindle.

They were updated?  Fascinating!  I will have to check them out again. My favorite two were Down a Dark Hall and Stranger With My Face.  I don't think I fully understood Daughters of Eve as a teen, it can be hard to grasp the concept of a group mob/cultish mentality for violence and harm when you are 15 years old.

I brought up the question of June's return to Canada lacking poignancy, and somebody pointed out her stepping onto Canadian soil, and other scenes.  It is interesting, I didn't find myself moved in that same way.  June is out for blood - justifiably so - and so as these moments go, I am tense x 1000.  Unlike the relief I felt when Emily crossed over and realized the officer was a canadian, unlike the tears I cried when Rita stepped off that plane and was so happy to meet Luke, or the happy tears when Luke went to find Moira.

And I don't mean this as a criticism of June.  I just wish we could have a moment of true happiness for her, somewhere.  Just a moment, please, then we can go back to where we were.  

[Cinnabon]

10 minutes ago, BrindaWalsh said:

They were updated?  Fascinating!  I will have to check them out again. My favorite two were Down a Dark Hall and Stranger With My Face.  I don't think I fully understood Daughters of Eve as a teen, it can be hard to grasp the concept of a group mob/cultish mentality for violence and harm when you are 15 years old.

I brought up the question of June's return to Canada lacking poignancy, and somebody pointed out her stepping onto Canadian soil, and other scenes.  It is interesting, I didn't find myself moved in that same way.  June is out for blood - justifiably so - and so as these moments go, I am tense x 1000.  Unlike the relief I felt when Emily crossed over and realized the officer was a canadian, unlike the tears I cried when Rita stepped off that plane and was so happy to meet Luke, or the happy tears when Luke went to find Moira.

And I don't mean this as a criticism of June.  I just wish we could have a moment of true happiness for her, somewhere.  Just a moment, please, then we can go back to where we were.  

She did look genuinely happy with Nichole.

[Black Knight]

On 6/3/2021 at 8:45 PM, Umbelina said:

That's why Canada brought in the World Court here, trying to spread the blame around, avoid being the only target.

I don't think that's why; it's a question of jurisdiction. Countries don't hold trials for crimes committed in other countries by citizens of those countries that are in violation of those countries' laws. Canada simply doesn't have jurisdiction. Now, the American government-in-exile does have jurisdiction, but the in-show reasons for why the American-government-in-exile wouldn't be taking it on are because they have limited resources and because they don't want to give Gilead reason to go hard into Anchorage to retrieve Fred and Serena. But Gilead is still trying to build diplomatic relationships with other nations, and so still prefers to avoid military action outside America's borders. Consequently, the ICC is the correct forum to refer the charges - if we assume that the American government-in-exile decided to become a signatory to the ICC again, in order to enable the ICC to handle the trial. What's still wrong though is that the ICC operates in The Hague, but of course it's more convenient for the show to have the trial held in Canada instead of having to move characters back and forth between Canada and Europe when it's just gone to a fair amount of trouble to get most of the cast gathered in Canada.

Lawrence talks about having plans for Gilead but is conveniently never specific about what he means by that. I suspect he's a Fifth Columnist. Yes, his wife had a moderating influence on him while she lived, but if I think if it weren't in keeping with his own feelings he would have started disregarding her after a little time spent in Gileadean society that reinforces the man gets all say and women are to shut up, etc. - in other words, what happened with Fred. Plus I think he blames Gilead, correctly, for his wife's death. That is probably the reason the show had June speaking about the Lawrences at the trial - to remind us that Gilead destroyed Eleanor and thus hint at Lawrence's true agenda. If June, who only met Eleanor after she had already descended pretty far, blames Gilead, how much more does Lawrence, who knew Eleanor when she was whole and healthy and saw the entirety of her decline?

I hope June's words to Serena about her losing the pregnancy are prophetic, because that smirk on Serena's face at the end was enraging. So much so that when the show then cut to the therapy group, I initially thought that was what they were talking about being shocked/surprised by, the supportive crowd for the Waterfords instead of attention being paid to the crimes June testified about.

[Stephanie23]

9 hours ago, madpsych78 said:

 

Even though some of the fans had signs praising the "Waterfords," other signs just had Serena's name alone. There were no signs that were strictly pro-Fred. Serena is regarded as the star, just like they were pre-Gilead.

 

And that will probably be one of the reasons of their downfall. I don't know if anyone catched it but Fred had an interesting look on his face when he saw that the protestors were in fact Serena's fans. He was definitely feeling pre-Gilead vibes when she's was the 'man' in the relationship, and he didn't like it lol

I wonder what will happen with Hannah in the future, because I don't think she will make to Canada in this season. and I have a feeling that a major character (Emily or Nick maybe) will die and it will be June's fault.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Stephanie23

[mamadrama]

12 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

This sort of tactic only works for so long. You can't rule over the proletariat if the proletariat dies out. You can't take all the viable fertile daughters of the lower class for handmaid duty for the upper class without depleting the lower class workers. 

Yes! This has been my fundamental issue with the whole system from the beginning, and what I was thinking when they opened the new red center. It's fine when you have unholy women left over from the previous world, but what happens when those people age out? I don't think there are going to be enough women committing enough infarcations to supply the need. They can keep changing the rules, but eventually people are going to figure out ways to hide shit.

IMO the only way this will continue to work is if Gilead trades women/supplies with other countries and/or if they turn it into a nun-type deal where women choose to enter the "service." Likewise, if Gilead offers financial or other incentives then some families might tag their daughters for service upon birth and raise them to be Handmaids. 

I just don't think the current system, as is, is going to work long term. Commanders, Guardians, etc are going to need wives and it appears that not many of the Handmaids are reproducing right now, and if they do there's no guarantee they'll have boys. They're going to eventually run out of women. 

[EllaWycliffe]

Its the fundamental flaw in the system, really. You can't sustain a system where one guy gets multiple women while the lower guys get nothing. And eventually Wives will lose their priviledged status because the whore designation will apply to everyone with a vagina.

There's also all the young appearing Martha's. Gilead apparently had an extensive obgyn department because a lot of young otherwise attractive women are Martha's, aka sterile.

ETA Another flaw is that the infertility crisis should be seriously impacting the entire world and yet everyone is sorta ignoring it. If we're seven years in to rare births even in Gilead there should be significant issues with population drops. 

Edited June 5, 2021 by EllaWycliffe

[Umbelina]

20 hours ago, Black Knight said:

I don't think that's why; it's a question of jurisdiction. Countries don't hold trials for crimes committed in other countries by citizens of those countries that are in violation of those countries' laws. Canada simply doesn't have jurisdiction. Now, the American government-in-exile does have jurisdiction, but the in-show reasons for why the American-government-in-exile wouldn't be taking it on are because they have limited resources and because they don't want to give Gilead reason to go hard into Anchorage to retrieve Fred and Serena. But Gilead is still trying to build diplomatic relationships with other nations, and so still prefers to avoid military action outside America's borders. Consequently, the ICC is the correct forum to refer the charges - if we assume that the American government-in-exile decided to become a signatory to the ICC again, in order to enable the ICC to handle the trial. What's still wrong though is that the ICC operates in The Hague, but of course it's more convenient for the show to have the trial held in Canada instead of having to move characters back and forth between Canada and Europe when it's just gone to a fair amount of trouble to get most of the cast gathered in Canada.

Lawrence talks about having plans for Gilead but is conveniently never specific about what he means by that. I suspect he's a Fifth Columnist. Yes, his wife had a moderating influence on him while she lived, but if I think if it weren't in keeping with his own feelings he would have started disregarding her after a little time spent in Gileadean society that reinforces the man gets all say and women are to shut up, etc. - in other words, what happened with Fred. Plus I think he blames Gilead, correctly, for his wife's death. That is probably the reason the show had June speaking about the Lawrences at the trial - to remind us that Gilead destroyed Eleanor and thus hint at Lawrence's true agenda. If June, who only met Eleanor after she had already descended pretty far, blames Gilead, how much more does Lawrence, who knew Eleanor when she was whole and healthy and saw the entirety of her decline?

I hope June's words to Serena about her losing the pregnancy are prophetic, because that smirk on Serena's face at the end was enraging. So much so that when the show then cut to the therapy group, I initially thought that was what they were talking about being shocked/surprised by, the supportive crowd for the Waterfords instead of attention being paid to the crimes June testified about.

Great points, and thanks!