S04.E03: The Crossing

[ElectricBoogaloo]

21 minutes ago, cuppasun said:

Oh, and one more for the body count: David the sympathetic Guardian who was shot at the farm when June was captured.

I didn't include him in this episode's body count because he was killed in the previous episode.

[Brn2bwild]

One part of the episode that struck me as false was Hannah screaming when she saw June.  I don't know how much time passed between their last reunion and the third episode, but Hannah was certainly old enough the first time to know that June was her mom.  I could see her reacting with hostility or jadedness, but she acted like June was a stranger.  

And she looked way too old to be playing with a doll.

Edited April 29, 2021 by Brn2bwild

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, cuppasun said:

Yeah, Nick is really troubling at this point. I guess I hold some faint hope that June’s affection outburst at the end is actually a calculated ploy and not sincere. We’ll see. To be fair, the experiences of real-life folks who have survived extreme & violent regimes make clear that while you’re in it, you can be really fucked up, in ways that might not occur in normal conditions. Sometimes, folks grasp for whatever there is to hang onto, even if it’s, well, ...fucked up.

Oh, and one more for the body count: David the sympathetic Guardian who was shot at the farm when June was captured.

I've had trouble with Nick from the beginning when he appeared genuinely bewildered as to why June was unhappy as a Handmaid. 

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, EllaWycliffe said:

I mean has it specifically been stated that wives who need handmaids aren't allowed to have sex with their husbands? I just don't recall that and it seems unenforceable.

Yep, it's been specifically stated more than once. Econo people can have sex with each other, as can Guardians and their wives, but Commander's Wives are considered barren. Since sex is only for procreation in Gilead and wives supposedly aren't able to have kids then they're not allowed to have sex. There's an episode in S1 when Fred and Serena Joy almost have sex and he freaks. 

That's why they have places like Jezebel's. Commander's can only have sex once a month and that's during the "ritual." In between sessions they go fool around with the prostitutes. It's a very hypocritical society.

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

No. The Econowives reproduce but if you watch season 1 or was it 2 when June was able to leave she was hiding out in an Econo family's home the wife said they dare not have another kid because the wife will be deemed Handmaid material and Gilead will pin something on them, kill the husband, take away the kid and place her in as a Handmaid. 

Of course that ended up happening anyway, because her husband chose to help June.

16 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

One part of the episode that struck me as false was Hannah screaming when she saw June.  I don't know how much time passed between their last reunion and the third episode, but Hannah was certainly old enough the first time to know that June was her mom.  I could see her reacting with hostility or jadedness, but she acted like June was a stranger.  

I don't think she acted like June was a stranger, she acted like June was a monster. She was most likely told that her mom is responsible for the kidnapping of 86 children, and who knows what else. Remember in S2 or S3 where Nick arranged visits for June and Hannah at the Mackenzies' summer house? Hannah's Martha was involved in this arrangement, and, if I'm not mistaken, was killed when the Mackenzies found out. So Hannah was probably also told that the loss of the Martha was June's fault.

[Brn2bwild]

4 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Of course that ended up happening anyway, because her husband chose to help June.

I don't think she acted like June was a stranger, she acted like June was a monster. She was most likely told that her mom is responsible for the kidnapping of 86 children, and who knows what else. Remember in S2 or S3 where Nick arranged visits for June and Hannah at the Mackenzies' summer house? Hannah's Martha was involved in this arrangement, and, if I'm not mistaken, was killed when the Mackenzies found out. So Hannah was probably also told that the loss of the Martha was June's fault.

But even if she thought June was a monster, you'd think her reaction would be more "Go away, I hate you!" than screaming like she just saw the boogeyman. 

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Of course that ended up happening anyway, because her husband chose to help June.

It would have happened sooner or later anyway.

Fertile women are a commodity, as are kids.  Remember, the wive was trying hard not to have another child because she knew it could happen to her if she did.

It's in the book

Spoiler

that this begins to happen to econwives quite frequently.  Charge them or their husbands with one crime or another, and presto, a new handmaid.

 

26 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

One part of the episode that struck me as false was Hannah screaming when she saw June.  I don't know how much time passed between their last reunion and the third episode, but Hannah was certainly old enough the first time to know that June was her mom.  I could see her reacting with hostility or jadedness, but she acted like June was a stranger.  

And she looked way too old to be playing with a doll.

She did look too old for a doll, in Gilead years, she's nearly able to marry.

June had been tortured for days and looked wild as well as the post below.

3 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

 

I don't think she acted like June was a stranger, she acted like June was a monster. She was most likely told that her mom is responsible for the kidnapping of 86 children, and who knows what else. Remember in S2 or S3 where Nick arranged visits for June and Hannah at the Mackenzies' summer house? Hannah's Martha was involved in this arrangement, and, if I'm not mistaken, was killed when the Mackenzies found out. So Hannah was probably also told that the loss of the Martha was June's fault.

Very true, and along with June's appearance and desperation, that would be enough to frighten any child, let alone one fed endless lies about June.  (and truths)

[Umbelina]

Commanders CAN have sex with their wives, if the wife hasn't been proven infertile.  (Men in Gilead are never considered infertile, but most are.)  

If, after a certain amount of time (years I assume) if the Commander's wife doesn't have a child, the Commander is issued a handmaid.

[chocolatine]

20 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

But even if she thought June was a monster, you'd think her reaction would be more "Go away, I hate you!" than screaming like she just saw the boogeyman. 

I'm sure she has been manipulated to the point that she fears that even being in a room with June puts her in grave danger. Gilead may not physically hurt her, but they have no problem playing cruel mind tricks on her.

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

(Men in Gilead are never considered infertile, but most are.)  

Exactly, and that's the entire premise and justification for the handmaid concept. Men are supposed to save their seed for procreation, so having sex with infertile women is a no-no. Of course Jezebels makes a mockery of that, but that's an outlet for the elite commanders, not an official institution.

And if Serena and Fred are sent back to Gilead, I wouldn't put it past him to claim that she got pregnant by sleeping with another man. That way only she would be a sinner.

Edited April 29, 2021 by chocolatine

[anna0852]

Serena is probably terrified of being sent back now. She betrayed her husband and is proven fertile. She'll be in the Red Center in no time. 

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, anna0852 said:

Serena is probably terrified of being sent back now. She betrayed her husband and is proven fertile. She'll be in the Red Center in no time. 

From your lips to the show writers' ears...

Speaking of: Bruce Miller was liking and retreating a lot of what I wrote last night. I felt like a Kardashian. I hope that wasn't my 15.

[chocolatine]

8 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

Speaking of: Bruce Miller was liking and retreating a lot of what I wrote last night. I felt like a Kardashian. I hope that wasn't my 15.

If Bruce Miller retweeted you, you must be more articulate than all of the Kardashians combined. Not a high bar, but still.

[mamadrama]

15 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

If Bruce Miller retweeted you, you must be more articulate than all of the Kardashians combined. Not a high bar, but still.

Lol, I'll take it. I live tweeted while I watched. It was fun. Between this and Cruel Summer I was up all night. 

(Some of you follow me. I blurred you out.)

 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

5 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

One part of the episode that struck me as false was Hannah screaming when she saw June.  I don't know how much time passed between their last reunion and the third episode, but Hannah was certainly old enough the first time to know that June was her mom.  I could see her reacting with hostility or jadedness, but she acted like June was a stranger. 

 

4 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I'm sure she has been manipulated to the point that she fears that even being in a room with June puts her in grave danger. Gilead may not physically hurt her, but they have no problem playing cruel mind tricks on her.

Her reaction was so over the top that I thought they had conditioned her to be terrified of June (like they had shown her pictures of June and then given her an electric shock every time).

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Someone (Nick?) said that Esther had been rescued and was safe so I briefly thought that June and the other handmaids would be accused of kidnapping her. I wonder if her anger at being returned home will end up directed at May Day and June for failing to set her free.

[Umbelina]

37 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Someone (Nick?) said that Esther had been rescued and was safe so I briefly thought that June and the other handmaids would be accused of kidnapping her. I wonder if her anger at being returned home will end up directed at May Day and June for failing to set her free.

"Mrs. Keyes is safe and still in custody." 

[Cornhusker12]

I actually wondered if Hannah would be revealed to be a hologram or something haha. I just can't imagine the conversations that had to lead up to them taking the real Hannah and getting her into that situation...

• "Hey parents! We need to borrow your priceless stolen daughter for a few days, don't worry it's an all expenses paid trip. Yeah we just need to bring her into this dungeon lair to torture her birth mother. She'll be safely enclosed in a glass box the WHOLE time we promise!"
• "Hey Hannah! Thanks for being here. Sooo we're gonna need you to hang out here with us - er, CHILL OUT as the kids say, heh heh... So yeah you WILL need to get inside this Hannibal Lector style cage in the middle of the room BUT we'll let you play with this one single doll while you're in there! Sounds fun right? Now hop on in there you little rascal!"

Edited April 29, 2021 by Cornhusker12

[Nande]

23 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

There were six handmaids in the van. One was shot before they got to the train tracks. Three were hit by the train. In the final shot, the handmaid who was shot is the only one visible on the other side of the train tracks so I'm assuming that the three who were hit by the train didn't survive.

Seems there were two shot and two run over by the train, just let it roll right before the credits and you'll see Aunt Lydia and the first handmaid who was shot.

[tvgoddess]

The ending, while probably inevitable, sucked for me. I loved Alma - she was my favorite minor character. I looked for her in every episode wherever and whenever there were Handmaids being shown. I just loved her snark. The way she called June "dummy", the way she could seem that while she obviously despised being there, she was friends with her other Handmaids and got along with everyone. And Nina Kiri, the actress who portrayed her, really humanized her in the scenes where she had her hand burned and also in the premiere of S2, when they all thought they were going to be hung in Fenway. I liked Brianna too, so it sucked losing her. And Beth (Lawrence's take charge Martha), I enjoyed a lot as well. So this episode was incredibly hard for me. It was harder to watch them die than the torture that June went through (although that torturer was insidiously Nazi like, so that was a real pleasure, NOT) in a different way. The torture was uncomfortable, but I was angry crying at the end. I was hoping that it would just be the two non-speaking Handmaids that just had their names revealed, Sarah and Ellie, that got killed. But that is not this show, unfortunately.

I'll still be watching of course, I just will miss these minor, recurring guest characters.

[AntFTW]

14 hours ago, anna0852 said:

Serena is probably terrified of being sent back now. She betrayed her husband and is proven fertile. She'll be in the Red Center in no time. 

...and not only that. I'm sure she's probably afraid of what would happen to her baby if she goes back to Gilead. Serena let June escape to Canada with Nichole, even though she eventually backtracked on that. As much as it ripped her heart out, Serena let her seemingly one shot at motherhood be smuggled into Canada because she knew Gilead is a shitty place for a child, and especially so for a girl. I can imagine those same fears forming for the baby she's pregnant with.

[AntFTW]

4 hours ago, Nande said:

Seems there were two shot and two run over by the train, just let it roll right before the credits and you'll see Aunt Lydia and the first handmaid who was shot.

I didn't notice the the second handmaid that was shot until I just rewatched. Even seeing the picture, I still didn't notice two handmaids shot until I just now rewatched this scene and saw the shot widen to include Aunt Lydia leaning over the red blob.

As I heard the second shot, I was thinking "how does he miss when they're running in a straight line?"

[tennisgurl]

Its Handmaidens greatest hits! Torture, killing of minor characters while main characters escape death or serious injury over and over again, ironic musical score, June is caught and then gets a slap on the wrist before escaping again, June glares at the camera, June escapes after being caught again, rinse and repeat. Poor Alma though, it looks like the train got her. I guess a named character had to die at some point, although I still cant believe how long Nick and Lawrence have lasted considering how many rules they've broken, or even that they keep letting Aunt Lydia be an Aunt considering how much has been fucked up on her watch. I don't blame June for all of these people dying, I blame Gilead, but it does start to feel like everyone around her is always dropping like flies while she always manages to get away. Its like  being trapped in a time loop, repeating the same plots over and over again. 

For as evil as Gilead is, I am surprised that June hasn't caught on to the fact that Gilead does not give one crap about kids, all they want is power for the people running and benefitting from it and to oppress people they don't like. Gilead is like one of those Star Wars planets where the entire culture is based around one thing, and while Gilead might say its thing is children, its actually misogyny or, more broadly, oppression. The all about the children and making children is just what they say to keep the indoctrinated in line and the crap they sell to the world to make themselves look better so that maybe some other countries might consider doing business with them, but its so obviously a lie. If they were really all about babies, they wouldn't kill fertility specialists or force doctors who could help with medical issues become Martha's or kill people like Eden and her boyfriend who would certainly have loved to have babies together because they broke their stupid rules about creepy arranged marriages, Gilead is all about oppression and power. 

I hate Fred, but he did have a point about the baby she is so obsessed with. Its not hers on any conceivable level, no pun intended. 

Edited May 3, 2021 by tennisgurl

[meatball77]

20 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Fred, they had sex on their little trip.

Apparently one of Fred's few sperm managed to swim to an egg and get through.

I thought that Serena was assumed to be infertile because of being shot earlier in her life?

[chocolatine]

3 hours ago, tvgoddess said:

The ending, while probably inevitable, sucked for me. I loved Alma - she was my favorite minor character.

Mine too. She was whip-smart, and the way she immediately grokked the Mexican trade situation in S2 and explained it to June made me think that she had a career in politics and/or international relations before Gilead. This whole time I had been hoping that she would escape and get the opportunity to use her talents again, but this episode destroyed that within a fraction of a second. I'm almost as upset as if she had been a real person. RIP, Alma.

7 minutes ago, meatball77 said:

I thought that Serena was assumed to be infertile because of being shot earlier in her life?

I thought the shot didn't hit her uterus, it hit one of her ovaries, and if the other ovary is healthy she should still be able to get pregnant. 

Edited April 29, 2021 by chocolatine

[Umbelina]

On 4/29/2021 at 1:23 PM, chocolatine said:

Mine too. She was whip-smart, and the way she immediately grokked the Mexican trade situation in S2 and explained it to June made me think that she had a career in politics and/or international relations before Gilead. This whole time I had been hoping that she would escape and get the opportunity to use her talents again, but this episode destroyed that within a fraction of a second. I'm almost as upset as if she had been a real person. RIP, Alma.

Yeah.  That was sad, really sad.  On the one hand I am glad they aren't just killing "redshirts" but that was a loss.

It needed to be there to emphasize the stakes involved in this war, to make loss and death more real.  In a show that has death quite a bit of the time, you can become a bit numb to it.  Alma's hurt.

 

On 4/29/2021 at 1:19 PM, meatball77 said:

I thought that Serena was assumed to be infertile because of being shot earlier in her life?

Nah, nearly all the men are infertile (more in a book talk thread if you want) but the show kind of let us know anyway with that doctor who is impregnating handmaids to keep them from being sent to the colonies.  Remember him?  Also, Serena shouting at him that he can't even father a child, etc.

However, since men are Gods in Gilead, all infertility is blame on the female, never ever the man.

Also, didn't take Nick long to get June pregnant, after trying for quite a while with the Commander.

ETA 

Women can be infertile as well.  It's just that in Gilead, it's never allowed to even consider that the men are infertile.

 

Edited May 2, 2021 by Umbelina

[dmc]

well shit...

also I had to watch this like four times to understand what happened

 

33 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yeah.  That was sad, really sad.  On the one hand I am glad they aren't just killing "redshirts" but that was a loss.

It needed to be there to emphasize the stakes involved in this war, to make loss and death more real.  In a show that has death quite a bit of the time, you can become a bit numb to it.  Alma's hurt.

 

Nah, nearly all the men are infertile (more in a book talk thread if you want) but the show kind of let us know anyway with that doctor who is impregnating handmaids to keep them from being sent to the colonies.  Remember him?  Also, Serena shouting at him that he can't even father a child, etc.

However, since men are Gods in Gilead, all infertility is blame on the female, never ever the man.

Also, didn't take Nick long to get June pregnant, after trying for quite a while with the Commander.

 

You are both right.  Serena was assumed to be infertile because she was shot.  There was something going on pre-Gillead where women were having trouble getting pregnant.  In the book, most of the husbands are infertile and they imply the same in the tv show several times including S1 when the doctor offered to get June pregnant.  

Edited April 29, 2021 by dmc

[mamadrama]

I actually enjoyed the "one burning question" (little extra on Hulu) with Luke and Rachel Lindsay more than I did the episode. It was interesting. 

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

I actually enjoyed the "one burning question" (little extra on Hulu) with Luke and Rachel Lindsay more than I did the episode. It was interesting. 

It was good!  I liked them all actually, and the inside the episodes and other extras as well.

[tvgoddess]

3 hours ago, meatball77 said:

I thought that Serena was assumed to be infertile because of being shot earlier in her life?

Fred admitted to her in Season 3, Episode 11 that he was the infertile one and that if Gilead had never happened that she'd probably leave him for someone who could give her a child.

[PsychoDrone]

This show is insufferable and really stupid.  I'm pretty much hate watching it just so I can get to the end.  Things happen to further the plot, or length of the show, without any real explanation.  How did they find June?  I thought they might touch on it, but no.  A one-liner about drones, which was mentioned by June when they got to the farm would have answered that.  The plot dictated that she be captured again, so she was captured without explanation.  Also, thought they wouldn't mention the aftermath at the Jezebel's.  They did, but what happened to the prostitutes?  Who would Gilead blame for the death and sickness of all those Commanders?  That place would have been burned to the ground, with every prostitute on the wall.  But, again no real explanation.

June's torturer tries to come across as so smart.  Show being true to itself, it had to include torture porn.  Finding the handmaids would have been important and time was of the essence.  So, why would the Lieutenant waste all that time on torture?  I said from the beginning, use Hannah.  Problem solved in no time.  Of course, show had to pad out the episode.  Also, why would the handmaids still be at the safe house?  They were on the run and June wasn't there.  Alma, in particular, seemed very smart.  You would think they would have tried to get out of there as quickly as possible, figuring that June was compromised and reveal their location. 

I have to admit that keeping the handmaids around for the breeding camp, instead of killing them, made sense.  Although, in the show's true fashion it crafted a final scene that was just dumb.  Of course, June had to escape again.  And, she ruins it by trying to hurt Lydia.  They all could have made it.  The Guardian shooting at them, killing one, didn't make sense.  He knew the handmaid's purpose, so keeping them alive was paramount.  If anything, they should have had Lydia jump him to stop him from shooting at them.  Couldn't have that though.  Show dictates that handmaids must die, and plot armor June survives, so that's what happened.  At least have Alma and Janine survive.  The others were pretty much fodder, but Alma had potential as a character.

 

[aghst]

I get that they want to recapture the Handmaids.

But they should have been able to go farm house to farm house.  Only so much ground they could have covered on foot.  Esther was suppose to go with them but apparently they left and she was captured at her home.

Wouldn't June be a greater target?  She was a leader of the rebels so why not make an example out of her?

Sure they would torture and beat her but eventually she'd be put up on the wall for Handmaids and Marthas to take notice.

Lydia said she must be on the wall to answer for her atrocities but no she's chummy, going to end up in the breeder colony.

I don't buy that they wouldn't punish Lawrence either.  Or are they unaware of his role in the Angel Flight?

June had many chances to attack Lydia.  Looked like she wanted to end Lydia in that van.

But we know the characters of Lydia and Lawrence won't disappear until the end of the series because they're acclaimed for their performances.  Sure if either of them decides they don't want to play these roles any longer, they would be written out.  But for now, only Moss is more crucial to the show than they are.

Bruce Miller says in Inside the Episode that he wants June to pay the price for leadership.  

Whatever.

So June risks her life and the lives of those who follow her.  Maybe they didn't want to do a whole backstory for Alma and these others or didn't have ideas for what to do with them long term.

Interesting that they left this whole episode hanging as far as Serena's fate.

I don't know how Nick doesn't get in trouble for the long make out session on that bridge.

Nick loves June, so that is why he's not more loyal to Gilead than he is to June.  There is something real between them, while Luke is taking care of their daughter up in Toronto.  

Gilead men care only about having power over women, including their spouses, even if they had an equal partnership before Gilead, like Serena and Fred.

Yet wouldn't it stand to reason that more Gilead men would fall in love like Nick did and have divided loyalties?

If Nick was ordered to execute June, would he do it?  Or execute Hannah?  Or even Janine?

Maybe those who are not religious fanatics, which seems to be the case with Nick, would balk at subjugating women.  Well he did see her off to the breeding colony so maybe it doesn't bother him that much.

 

[revbfc]

It’s kind of frustrating that June gave up her friends, and now only Janine is left to say shit about it.  I guess the show wants June to take responsibility for her actions without others actually holding her responsible?  Am I getting that right?

As for Serena’s pregnancy, here’s a plot twist:

Nick’s the father.

That boy sure gets around!

[ReganX]

On 4/29/2021 at 7:35 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

 

Her reaction was so over the top that I thought they had conditioned her to be terrified of June (like they had shown her pictures of June and then given her an electric shock every time).

I was hoping against hope that Hannah was being clever, and feigning fear of June so her captors would think that she was a good girl, and a true believer but, sadly, conditioning is more likely.

Trust the Gilead authorities to find a way to make the Handmaid system worse. The nod to the Magdalene Laundries was interesting. I question the wisdom of heavy manual labour for women if the goal is for them to become pregnant. They could end up with early miscarriages.

I'm sorry to see Alma go. She was one of my favourites among the supporting characters.

I wouldn't want to be Aunt Lydia and the driver having to explain how they botched a transport job so badly that four out of six Handmaids are dead and the other two are on the run.

Edited April 30, 2021 by ReganX

[revbfc]

39 minutes ago, ReganX said:

I wouldn't want to be Aunt Lydia and the driver having to explain how they botched a transport job so badly that four out of six Handmaids are dead and the other two are on the run.

Darth Vader failed to prevent a whole moon-sized space station from being destroyed, and he got an 8-mile long Star Destroyer in the next film.

What I’m trying to say is that the BEST villains have to be given a path to return.  Especially in a show like this.  I understand where you’re coming from, but Lydia is a Darth Vader level villain, and she needs to stick around until the end.

[ReganX]

25 minutes ago, revbfc said:

 I understand where you’re coming from, but Lydia is a Darth Vader level villain, and she needs to stick around until the end.

I can't imagine that Aunt Lydia will have any qualms about blaming the driver. He's the one who left the van, and didn't lock it.

[EllaWycliffe]

I'd make the point that Lydia is not a Darth Vader villain here. She's a low level storm trooper who has fucked up royally again and again. Her handmaid are responsible for bombings, baby kidnappings, murder of guardians, multiple runaways and 86 kids flown over the border on her watch. There's a point where its implausible that Lydia is still alive and not sent to the colonies at best. And yeah, four dead handmaid and escaped on her watch? She should be eating lead.

[revbfc]

22 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

I'd make the point that Lydia is not a Darth Vader villain here. She's a low level storm trooper who has fucked up royally again and again. Her handmaid are responsible for bombings, baby kidnappings, murder of guardians, multiple runaways and 86 kids flown over the border on her watch. There's a point where its implausible that Lydia is still alive and not sent to the colonies at best. And yeah, four dead handmaid and escaped on her watch? She should be eating lead.

She’s Darth Vader because her malevolent presence is iconic in a similar way.  She’s shows up, and bad things happen.  
 

Is there good in her?  Could she turn?  She’d probably tell you “No.  You don’t understand…I must obey my Commanders.”

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by revbfc

[Zonk]

We all know that Lydia is pure evil, but I don't buy for a second that she was on board with hurting a child. Even threatening one would be a stretch for her. She doesn't believe in Gillead's leadership. She believes in the cause. She wants to produce and protect children.

Are those handmaids stupid? They clearly knew that June must have been captured and would break eventually. Why didn't they move to another location? Even the woods are better than somewhere where you'll most certainly be found.

At the end: What kind of stupid was that?! First they let those handmaids alone with an old, frail aunt. Second, the lock of that van used for prison transport can be pulled from the inside. Third the prisoners don't just whack aunt lydia over the head with that metal rod "because they can beat the train, dummy" when a whack would have been way faster than all that hesitating. Guess Lydia's plot armor is even thicker than Junes... Finally, they outran the train, well not all of them, because June's hesitation in just hitting Lydia over the head cost them valuable seconds and Lydia was able to call for the guardian who shot two of them, but what does that actually help them? I know trains in america can be long, but they are on foot and the guardian has a van. No way they are getting away. (although of course they will because the writers said so)

God this show is stupid and lacks any kind of realism. Why am I still watching?

On 4/29/2021 at 2:03 AM, Umbelina said:

Because she was deemed barren, and it's a sin to have sex for recreation.  They both broke the law.

But clearly she wasn't barren and so the sex they had was not for fun but for procreation. I doubt anybody will question it. Even if they do Serena and Fred can just say they got a sign from god that this time it would work and clearly it did. Nobody is going to be executed for that one. Serena would probably be executed for being a traitor though (after she had given birth).

On 4/29/2021 at 10:39 PM, Umbelina said:

Nah, nearly all the men are infertile (more in a book talk thread if you want) but the show kind of let us know anyway with that doctor who is impregnating handmaids to keep them from being sent to the colonies. 

That is not the case in the show. I think you are confusing your book knowledge with what has actually been shown on TV. In the show most women are infertile. Otherwise Mexico wouldn't have a problem. They have a woman in charge, they are still using reproductive technologies like artificial insamination and if the men were the problem, they could insaminate like a hundret women with one fertile man's sperm.

Also that doctor was not doing what he did to keep women from getting send to the colonies...

Edited April 30, 2021 by Zonk

[mamadrama]

20 minutes ago, Zonk said:

 

But clearly she wasn't barren and so the sex they had was not for fun but for procreation. I doubt anybody will question it. Even if they do Serena and Fred can just say they got a sign from god that this time it would work and clearly it did. Nobody is going to be executed for that one. Serena would probably be executed for being a traitor though (after she had given birth).

If this were a country that truly cared about children and procreation and even God then, yes, they'd probably accept this. But it's not. Their law about Commanders not sleeping with their lives is less about their wives being barren and more about control. They want the Commanders to have full allegiance to Gilead. Removing physical affection from a marriage, along with other things, helps keep a strong connection from forming. 

Serena and Fred broke a law. She'd most likely be allowed to give birth, at which point the baby would be given to a more deserving Commander's family. Then Serena, who's now proven to be fertile, would probably be made a Handmaid. 

God's will, messages from God, God's plan, etc has no real place in Gilead. They use religion as a facade. 

[Zonk]

9 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

If this were a country that truly cared about children and procreation and even God then, yes, they'd probably accept this. But it's not. Their law about Commanders not sleeping with their lives is less about their wives being barren and more about control. They want the Commanders to have full allegiance to Gilead. Removing physical affection from a marriage, along with other things, helps keep a strong connection from forming. 

Commanders with wifes who aren't considered barren are allowed to have sex with them to their hearts content. We have seen such commanders in previous seasons. So that theory doesn't hold water.

Of course they don't really care about children. They care about their religious facade being upheld as that is their biggest pillar of power. So no sex other than for procreation, even for commanders (only officially, of course). That is why nobody would care if Serena and Fred had a good excuse. All that matters is that the facade is upheld.

9 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

Serena and Fred broke a law. She'd most likely be allowed to give birth, at which point the baby would be given to a more deserving Commander's family. Then Serena, who's now proven to be fertile, would probably be made a Handmaid. 

No they didn't. The law is that sex is only for procreation. They procreated. No laws broken.

9 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

God's will, messages from God, God's plan, etc has no real place in Gilead. They use religion as a facade. 

Exactly.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Zonk

[islandgal140]

On 4/28/2021 at 4:47 PM, Umbelina said:

Either way, June is our protagonist in this story, and I do believe that she's had amazing success, along with terrible losses.  Getting 95 people out of Gilead, including 86 kids?  It wasn't all her work, but it WAS her idea.

I just don't understand why they let June live? The more shit she pulls off and gets away with, the more ridiculous it seems that Gilead lets her keep trotting around to mill in the general Handmaid population.

She has escaped multiple times. Is suspected of outright murdering a freaking Commander. She orchestrated the escape of 9 Marthas and  the pride of Gilead - 86 children!  For all intents and purposes she is the face of a movement.  She is an enemy of the state. Instead of putting her on the wall as an example to quell the rebellion or at the very least get the Handmaids in line, they let her skip off to Camp Handmaiden. It makes no sense. With no special provisions or troops. It just keeps getting dumber.

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, Zonk said:

On 4/29/2021 at 1:39 PM, Umbelina said:

Nah, nearly all the men are infertile (more in a book talk thread if you want) but the show kind of let us know anyway with that doctor who is impregnating handmaids to keep them from being sent to the colonies. 

That is not the case in the show. I think you are confusing your book knowledge with what has actually been shown on TV. In the show most women are infertile. Otherwise Mexico wouldn't have a problem. They have a woman in charge, they are still using reproductive technologies like artificial insamination and if the men were the problem, they could insaminate like a hundret women with one fertile man's sperm.

Also that doctor was not doing what he did to keep women from getting send to the colonies...

The doctor was getting his jollies off, part of the way he coerced them was mentioning the threat of them being sent to the colonies. The women agreed because they didn't want to get sent to the colonies and on the show it was "3 commanders, you're out."

He was just ONE instance when the show made it perfectly clear it was often the men who were infertile.  The doctor was the most explicit, spelling it out "they are all shooting blanks" or whatever he said.  Serena made it even more clear by suggesting Nick impregnate June, and also in subsequent things she said in other episodes.  

None of that is just from the book, it's from the show.

Do I know more from the books?  Yes, but I didn't mention any of that in my post.  Frankly, not much more either, the show has made it perfectly clear.

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Umbelina

[jade.black]

Commander Lawrence this ep regarding June: "Perhaps she's fulfilled her purpose and it's time to move on."

YES. PLEASE YES. My God, I am having so much trouble separating my hatred of June and Elisabeth Moss from the good parts of this show. I'd have rather June been killed off this episode and we could follow Alma's story instead, but my reward for that thought was Alma's unceremonious death at the end of this episode. Thanks.

[aghst]

41 minutes ago, islandgal140 said:

I just don't understand why they let June live? The more shit she pulls off and gets away with, the more ridiculous it seems that Gilead lets her keep trotting around to mill in the general Handmaid population.

She has escaped multiple times. Is suspected of outright murdering a freaking Commander. She orchestrated the escape of 9 Marthas and  the pride of Gilead - 86 children!  For all intents and purposes she is the face of a movement.  She is an enemy of the state. Instead of putting her on the wall as an example to quell the rebellion or at the very least get the Handmaids in line, they let her skip off to Camp Handmaiden. It makes no sense. With no special provisions or troops. It just keeps getting dumber.

 

5 minutes ago, jade.black said:

Commander Lawrence this ep regarding June: "Perhaps she's fulfilled her purpose and it's time to move on."

YES. PLEASE YES. My God, I am having so much trouble separating my hatred of June and Elisabeth Moss from the good parts of this show. I'd have rather June been killed off this episode and we could follow Alma's story instead, but my reward for that thought was Alma's unceremonious death at the end of this episode. Thanks.

Moss is the star of the show.

Hulu probably believes Moss brings the show and the network exposure and ratings.  Maybe positive reviews at least in the early seasons.

She's associated with one of the greatest prestige TV shows in history.

Like I said, as long as Moss wants to do the show and the ratings don't fall off a cliff, they will keep it in production.

Edited April 30, 2021 by aghst

[EllaWycliffe]

3 hours ago, revbfc said:

She’s Darth Vader because her malevolent presence is iconic in a similar way.  She’s shows up, and bad things happen.  

But she doesn't have the power in the power structure. Aunt Lydia is scary to Handmaids but Aunt Lydia can also be tortured for days because she's just a woman. She doesn't run the show, she's a cruel underling with a little power.

The way I look at it - yes she's a cruel bitch, and a true believer, but in the grand scheme of Gilead she's a very small fish. 

[tvgoddess]

21 minutes ago, aghst said:

 

Moss is the star of the show.

Hulu probably believes Moss brings the show and the network exposure and ratings.  Maybe positive reviews at least in the early seasons.

She's associated with one of the greatest prestige TV shows in history.

Like I said, as long as Moss wants to do the show and the ratings don't fall off a cliff, they will keep it in production.

Agreed. And she isn't just the star, she's an executive producer and now a director of several episodes. Like it or not, it's her vehicle. Bruce Miller and Warren Littlefield are 100% behind her. 

Janine clearly was affected by her fellow Handmaids' deaths. I realize that June knew they had to get out of there, but it would be nice if in a later episode we see her reflecting on these losses. Alma most definitely. She was with her from the beginning and they went through a lot together.

Question not specific to this episode: how long was the training at the Red Center? I should know this because I've read the book multiple times and just finished a binge watch of the entire show just prior to the season premiering, but I can't put my finger on the answer.

[EllaWycliffe]

9 minutes ago, tvgoddess said:

Question not specific to this episode: how long was the training at the Red Center? I should know this because I've read the book multiple times and just finished a binge watch of the entire show just prior to the season premiering, but I can't put my finger on the answer.

I don't think this was ever specifically stated on the show. In the book, it seemed like a few months but again, I don't recall a specific time frame

[madpsych78]

I guess maybe Fred is not as infertile as we all thought he was...

[Helena Dax]

I think someone like June would have tried to kill herself the moment they murdered the Marthas or at least when she understood they were going to use Hannah against her. Ater keeping her mouth shut through two rounds of torture (which proves how insanely determined she is to protect the handmaids)  someone in her position and state of mind would have seen suicide as the perfect solution: it puts an end to the pain and she can protect the handmaids, the Marthas on the roof and Hannah: June has been ready to die for a while now. Then you can have the guards stopping her and threatening Hannah for real, and June caves in, so you have the same ending, but to me, it's more consistent.

Not that I think this show cares about consistency anymore, though. It's stupid to think that all the handmaids would be sent together to the same penal colony and by now, the Gilead we met in season 1 would have maimed June somehow to stop her from being a female version of Spartacus. Some people have explained why (special effects are expensive, she's the main character etc), but sorry, I think a really good show avoids painting itself into that kind of corner, in the first place.

 

[BrindaWalsh]

Quote

The ending, while probably inevitable, sucked for me. I loved Alma - she was my favorite minor character. I looked for her in every episode wherever and whenever there were Handmaids being shown. I just loved her snark. The way she called June "dummy", the way she could seem that while she obviously despised being there, she was friends with her other Handmaids and got along with everyone. And Nina Kiri, the actress who portrayed her, really humanized her in the scenes where she had her hand burned and also in the premiere of S2, when they all thought they were going to be hung in Fenway. 

 

Killing Alma was a mistake IMO.  She was part of Mayday.  She had a greater understanding of Gilead and how it works.  She didn't blindly follow June and they were clearly leader 1 and leader 2 of the group.  And quite frankly, given how much she knew over the course of the seasons, there was a lot more they could do with her.  I'm also not a fan of Janine and am annoyed that she and June made it.  

This episode had too much torture and too many close-ups of Elisabeth Moss.   Moss is amazing, I've always believed that.  But that particular filming choice is losing it's impact, you can only convey the same emotions in so many ways.  I feel like you could simply pluck out one "horrified by the realization of what has happened" close up and replace it with any other "horrified by the realization of what has happened" close up from any other episode and we wouldn't even notice.  The same applies for the "I'm royally pissed off and I will make you pay by opening my eyes and staring UP at the camera," the "dazed and confused by trauma," the "desperate for any kindness," and (my personal favorite), the "look what I just got away with bitches" close-ups.  In other words.  Enough close-up shots of Elisabeth Moss.  

That said I'm glad they escaped again.  I know it's totally improbably that June would even be alive at this point in time after all that has happened, but how many times can we see her assigned as a handmaid?  As viewers we have asked to see more of the resistance and so far that's what we're getting.  

Are we expecting some type of evolution to begin with Aunt Lydia this season?  They are certainly laying the groundwork.