S01.E02: The Star-Spangled Man

[Cthulhudrew]

Can't wait a week to see more Zemo. Argh!

[Cobalt Stargazer]

38 minutes ago, saoirse said:

And I’m definitely in the ‘where the hell is Sharon?’ crowd. Her image was in the end credits and it was awkward due to the credits themselves.

Next episode, I'm sure. Sam specifically mentioned that she's an enemy of the state now (thanks a lot, Steve) so maybe they'll help her get her life to some semblance or how it used to be before this is over. She's either been in hiding or on the run or both.

[lynxfx]

I'm really starting to feel that the Endgame Avengers were selfish in their plan to keep the 5 years of blip time intact and just bring back everyone. Not only did it cause insurmountable problems for those they brought back but it created all new issues for those that spent those five years moving on and having a life. Making the second snap return to the time of the first snap surely would have been better as long as there was no memory of those 5 years for anyone. Sure Tony would lose his daughter but really he just wouldn't have had her yet. 

None of the problems or factions brought up in FATWS so far would be an issue. 

That said I'm glad these two shows are dealing with some of those problems, more so than Far From Home did.

I'm guessing that Zemo wasn't snapped? I knew he was in the show but still excited to see how Bucky interacts with him. 

My biggest negative is how they are really playing loose with physics and cap's shield. I gave a pass when Rogers yielded it only because of the super serum. Is new cap pure human or has he been somewhat enhanced too? He throws that thing like Rogers. The practice footage was insane. 

[silverstream]

1 hour ago, lynxfx said:

My biggest negative is how they are really playing loose with physics and cap's shield. I gave a pass when Rogers yielded it only because of the super serum. Is new cap pure human or has he been somewhat enhanced too? He throws that thing like Rogers. The practice footage was insane. 

Officially he's human, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was some kind of reveal in a future episode, considering that, between Isaiah and the Flag Smashers, the super soldier serum is definitely going to be a plot point going foward. And this is just my speculation, but I think it would be interesting if nuCap himself didn't know about it - that could lead to some interesting developments. After all, as others have brought up before, he mentioned being "studied" in the interview in the beginning, maybe stuff was being done to him that he himself wasn't fully aware of, since - at least to me - he didn't act as if he believed he had of any kind of artificial enhancements during the episode.

[MagnusHex]

A number of people were bummed out about the Civil War theme being used for John Walker/Fake-Cap, and I initially found it off-putting too, especially after he showed his true nature at the end. But after thinking about it, what the theme represented in Civil War (the movie), it was an expression of the conflict within the Avengers team, so in a way, having John Walker who's supposed to be an ally to America having conflict with Falcon and Winter Soldier (also allies to the country in different ways), it was also a similar conflict within, so the theme was appropriately inserted.

Similarly, "The Star-Spangled Man" theme that was used in the WWII propaganda in "The First Avenger" was also used as propaganda to promote John as the new Cap. So I think so far, the soundtracks have been used effectively, and I have no complaints about that at all.

Now, here's where my wishful thinking comes in. I know, I know, we all made our little mistakes having false expectations in WandaVision... but come on, you can't watch a geeky superhero show like this without some wishful thinking. And for me, gosh, if only Chris Evans would show up for just a small cameo again or something as old Cap, and then perhaps "Captain America March" (or an updated version of it) starts playing. Oh man... lol

Take that, Fake-Cap!

[MochaJay]

3 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

In last week's episode, Dr. Raynor is talking about how Bucky is ignoring Sam and not answering his messages, and then in this episode he all of a sudden just shows up wherever Sam was and they bicker.  Then they jump around the world, 

Showing up to yell at someone seems a natural progression from stewing in emotions and ignoring their texts.

The transition to Bucky putting himself on the mission was more awkward, but I have to remind myself he was Steve's best friend, and so has had a whole lifetime of charging in places because it feels right 

I had thought his pardon was a begrudging we won't lock you up, but we still hate you. But it seems his reputation has been more thoroughly rehabilitated than that. He was permitted on a military base and place without drama, and Walker wants him on his team in part for the public image.

There was a question upthrea about Bucky's dog tags. As it seems the authorities no longer have a problem with him, I'll suggest an official the reissue of a replica set. Maybe Dr Raynor arranged them to help ground him.

 

 

 

 

[swanpride]

Quote

Even though it's relatable and realistic, man, why drag that kind of racial politics into this, especially with the chaos BLM has left behind?

...because this is ALL about racial politics. Which, btw, is fairly impressive. Small reminder that the show was supposed to get released last year before Corona delayed everything, and that the writing had to have happened some time before the actual release date. Which means that the plan was to address racial injustices BEFORE the murders last year brought the topic to the forefront yet again. As usual the Captain America franchise is extremely topical and on point with its commentary (there is a reason why it is my favourite one).

Btw, I looked up the Battlestar thing...so apparently that character is from the comics, too, and is one of the characters who take up the mantle of "Bucky" (which...what? Didn't even know that there were multiple Buckys...that is even more idiotic than acting as if "Thor" is some kind of heritable title).

Speaking of Bucky, I think my favourite moment was his annoyed look when he caught the shield and then it was taken right out of his hand a split second after. It was such a nice contrast to him and Steve throwing the shield to each other in battle, too.

And yes, Walker is totally condescending towards the existing Avengers. This guy has done nothing to deserve the title which was given to him by overriding Steve's wishes, and he acts as if he is someone special.

Oh, regarding the music...since we are talking about wishes, I want to hear "Triumphant Return" in the end when Sam has the shield back and claims the title of Captain America. Because Triumphant Return, that was the moment when Steve really claimed the title for himself.

[arc]

3 hours ago, saoirse said:

After the great cgi in WandaVision, the cgi in the truck top fight was just...bad. I’m hoping that was an aberration.

There were moments early on where the integration of the backgrounds didn't feel solidly done, but after that I was engrossed enough in the fight to not notice. That said, it could have ended a lot earlier if Sam had just shot them. He had guns in previous movies. He even killed a ton of people in the previous episode by shooting them and blowing their helicopters up! Don't get me wrong, I would prefer if heroes didn't kill but having done it as recently as last episode it seems weird that Sam -- who doesn't have super strength -- would prefer to engage in hand to hand combat on top of moving trucks rather than shoot and fly.

Speaking of guns, it was a little jarring that nuCap used one on the truck fight -- and sparingly too -- but then again Steve used a gun in WW2. He just hasn't, post-thaw, as Marvel has tried to frame him more as a superhero and less a super-soldier.

I really like how the star/A on nuCap clavicle is half on his uniform itself and half on the shield backpack strap.

It would have made more sense in the mainline comics universe (aka 616) to replace Cap with an elite soldier, since the 616 super soldier serum only brought Steve up to "peak human". But in the MCU, Cap, Bucky, the Flag Smashers, the other Winter Soldiers -- they're all much stronger, faster, and more durable than even peak humans. Walker is at a decided disadvantage to MCU super soldiers.

Why is Sam a "free agent"? I guess he's not officially employed by the US military then, but as recently as Civil War, the Falcon equipment wasn't his, it was the military's. Like they said this episode, Sharon had to steal it for him back in 2016 and Redwing still is government property. Bucky at least has been pardoned, long since released from military duty, and even his arm isn't government property. But I did like that Sam wasn't 100% behind the anti Flag Smashers line of thinking: 

Quote

Walker: Violent revolutionaries aren't usually good for anyone's cause.

Sam: Usually said by the people with the resources.

I guarantee Walker unironically celebrates Independence Day though, because some violent revolutionaries are absolutely canonized to some Americans.

Isaiah Bradley!!!!

BTW, I guess I missed it from Winter Soldier/Civil War, but why do they need Zemo for HYDRA's secrets? Didn't Natasha release the entirety of HYDRA and SHIELD's secrets to the entire internet in Winter Soldier?

 

[swanpride]

Natasha released all the files of Shield and by extension all Hydra related files on Shield's server, but that doesn't mean that she released all of Hydra's files. Still two different organisations, plus, Hydra tends to operate in cells.

Also Zemo was never part of Hydra in the first place by the current stand of information. He was some covert ops guy, but at no point it was claimed that he was part of Hydra. But if there is someone who knows everything about Hydra it is him exactly because he studied all their files Shield had to find information and had an hour or two in the facility in Siberia to look at the information too because whatever government swooped in to secure whatever was there.

[Gin and Tonic]

Upon rewatch, I have to say that I really wish the Isaiah scene was extended and had clearer writing. 
 

Isaiah was jailed for 30 years and eventually came to HYDRA’s attention. Why on earth would they have let him go? I can see the initial imprisonment having a 30 term that the US Gov’t/SHIELD would abide by. It’s what gives the system plausible deniability that’s it’s truly fair. But HYDRA obviously wouldn’t give a damn. Are we supposed to assume he broke out (which honestly would be cool as hell and I’d love a flashback scene)? I can’t see why HYDRA would just accept the official terms of Isaiah’s imprisonment. If he broke out, HYDRA might not find it worth it to pursue because the last time he fought their top assassin, he won. But why let him walk out a free man instead of secreting him away somewhere for further tests? 
 

I’m also still confused by Bucky’s knowledge. By Civil War he’s recovered his memories and remembers his missions, so he would remember fighting another super soldier. But it would’ve just been another fight with no significance beyond “super soldier.” In this ep, Bucky says he didn’t tell anyone, including Steve, about Isaiah because he’d been through enough. Did Bucky ask for help in Wakanda tracking down his old missions? How else would he know anything about what Isaiah had been through? Or that he was even still alive 40 plus years later? Maybe he was planning on making amends even then. Of course at this point, Steve was on the run and there’s no one to tell. The most I can see that Bucky could have done is give people a heads up that at least one other super soldier might be out there. 
 

None of this takes away from the horror of Isaiah’s story or it’s thematic importance. I would have found it more emotionally impactful if they gave more breathing space to explore Isaiah and his story.  

Edited March 27, 2021 by Gin and Tonic

[swanpride]

I think it was pretty clear that it was the US government who did the experimenting and Hydra most likely thought "cool, we get all the data without having to do the actual imprisonment, we just need a few of our scientists in the mix so that they sneak in the experiments WE want.

Bucky most likely did research on ALL of his victims. I mean, he also knows where the father of random guy he shot because he was at the wrong place the wrong time is, finding some heroic soldier was most likely not that much more difficult. The interesting part is more that there is a surviving witness of the Winter Soldiers existence (other than Natasha) and yet he was kept under wraps.

[wanderingstar]

Bucky yelling "STOP THE CAR" made me laugh so hard. 

[cambridgeguy]

8 hours ago, lynxfx said:

I'm really starting to feel that the Endgame Avengers were selfish in their plan to keep the 5 years of blip time intact and just bring back everyone. Not only did it cause insurmountable problems for those they brought back but it created all new issues for those that spent those five years moving on and having a life. Making the second snap return to the time of the first snap surely would have been better as long as there was no memory of those 5 years for anyone. Sure Tony would lose his daughter but really he just wouldn't have had her yet. 

What was selfish (or just short sighted) was not giving the world a heads up.  As far as they knew there was no ticking clock (past Thanos coming was a surprise) so maybe tell everyone to get ready for billions of people to suddenly reappear rather than having it be a huge surprise.  Of course then the self righteous would start bitching about it (who the hell are you to play God?)  People like the Flag Smashers, for instance.

 

[Danny Franks]

8 hours ago, lynxfx said:

I'm really starting to feel that the Endgame Avengers were selfish in their plan to keep the 5 years of blip time intact and just bring back everyone. Not only did it cause insurmountable problems for those they brought back but it created all new issues for those that spent those five years moving on and having a life. Making the second snap return to the time of the first snap surely would have been better as long as there was no memory of those 5 years for anyone. Sure Tony would lose his daughter but really he just wouldn't have had her yet. 

Well it was really only Tony who insisted that they not "lose what they have", and it was understandable because he had a wife and a young child. Steve easily agreed to that caveat and I doubt the others raised any objections because it didn't seem to affect them hugely one way or the other.

It's an interesting thought, though. Endgame portrayed the Blip as a disaster that the world had never moved on from - monuments to the disintegrated, empty streets, the collapse of infrastructure, grief counselling groups for those who lost loved ones. But even then Steve mentioned nature bouncing back in the wake of humanity's retreat.

Of course, this is the contention that Thanos made all along - it would be better for those who remain, when resources were easier to share around. His plan was monstrous, but there was always a certain amount of cold, Malthusian logic to it. The Flag Smashers seem to represent those people who did find better lives after the Blip, 

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 hours ago, swanpride said:

Btw, I looked up the Battlestar thing...so apparently that character is from the comics, too, and is one of the characters who take up the mantle of "Bucky" (which...what? Didn't even know that there were multiple Buckys...that is even more idiotic than acting as if "Thor" is some kind of heritable title).

Speaking of Bucky, I think my favourite moment was his annoyed look when he caught the shield and then it was taken right out of his hand a split second after. It was such a nice contrast to him and Steve throwing the shield to each other in battle, too.

And yes, Walker is totally condescending towards the existing Avengers. This guy has done nothing to deserve the title which was given to him by overriding Steve's wishes, and he acts as if he is someone special.

In the comics, Cap and Bucky were a superhero team like Batman and Robin. Just like there had been multiple people to take up the mantle of Robin over the years, it makes sense  that someone trying to recreate Captain America would want to have a Bucky to complete the look.

I mean, he IS someone special. Check the resume. Is he Steve? No. Few people --- including Sam and Bucky -- could measure up to Steve. But Walker explicitly acknowledges that he is not Steve. Whether he's sincere in saying that or just saying that because he knows that saying anything else would a) alienate Sam, Bucky and the general public and b) make him seem as much of a douchebag as possible remains to be seen.

5 hours ago, arc said:

BTW, I guess I missed it from Winter Soldier/Civil War, but why do they need Zemo for HYDRA's secrets? Didn't Natasha release the entirety of HYDRA and SHIELD's secrets to the entire internet in Winter Soldier?

 

I would also argue that the line doesn't fully make sense because there would be information about Hydra/SHIELD activities that would not be digital, that would be actual disinformation, that would be mistaken, incomplete, conflicting, etc. So I take that as an oversimplification of events to say Natasha released all the information.  

Even taking TWS at face value, Natasha released the entirety of Hydra and SHIELD's information to the world as it existed back in 2014. It's now 2023 in the Marvel universe so at best that information is nine years out of date.

And even if we were to say that the information Natasha leaked were somehow complete at the time and updated, there would have to be tons of information to sort through. Someone like Zemo could at least somewhat shortcut what they might be looking for.

2 hours ago, Gin and Tonic said:

Upon rewatch, I have to say that I really wish the Isaiah scene was extended and had clearer writing. 
 

Isaiah was jailed for 30 years and eventually came to HYDRA’s attention. Why on earth would they have let him go? I can see the initial imprisonment having a 30 term that the US Gov’t/SHIELD would abide by. It’s what gives the system plausible deniability that’s it’s truly fair. But HYDRA obviously wouldn’t give a damn. Are we supposed to assume he broke out (which honestly would be cool as hell and I’d love a flashback scene)? I can’t see why HYDRA would just accept the official terms of Isaiah’s imprisonment. If he broke out, HYDRA might not find it worth it to pursue because the last time he fought their top assassin, he won. But why let him walk out a free man instead of secreting him away somewhere for further tests? 
 

I’m also still confused by Bucky’s knowledge. By Civil War he’s recovered his memories and remembers his missions, so he would remember fighting another super soldier. But it would’ve just been another fight with no significance beyond “super soldier.” In this ep, Bucky says he didn’t tell anyone, including Steve, about Isaiah because he’d been through enough. Did Bucky ask for help in Wakanda tracking down his old missions? How else would he know anything about what Isaiah had been through? Or that he was even still alive 40 plus years later? Maybe he was planning on making amends even then. Of course at this point, Steve was on the run and there’s no one to tell. The most I can see that Bucky could have done is give people a heads up that at least one other super soldier might be out there. 
 

None of this takes away from the horror of Isaiah’s story or it’s thematic importance. I would have found it more emotionally impactful if they gave more breathing space to explore Isaiah and his story.  

It's not clear when/how Isaiah was imprisoned. It could be that he got framed for a crime. It could be that he was locked up solely to be experimented on. It could be that he was imprisoned at because of Hydra, that Hydra had no involvement in it, or anything  in between.

Assuming for discussion's sake that Hydra had at least some knowledge/involvement in Isaiah's imprisonment, Hydra could have just wanted Isaiah off the board, and having him imprisoned and having it buried that there was a black supersoldier served them just fine. Or they could have gotten what they needed from leeching off the 30 years of imprisonment/testing that Isaiah endured.

As to what Bucky knew, it seems most likely that Bucky's Hydra masters over the years told him things about the one man who kicked Bucky's ass. That would be make sense with his saying that Hydra feared Isaiah in the same sort of way that it feared Steve. In addition to being privy to whatever his masters said about Isaiah, he had some ability to track down information about him through any number of means between CW and being dusted in Infinity War, not to mention since returning in Endgame.

[swanpride]

Honestly, I think it would have been cruel to give the world a heads up. The time heist was a long shot, what if it had failed? So many parents hoping for their children to come back and then it didn't happen. Even when they had the glove they weren't actually sure that it would work (though frankly, at this point it would have been prudent to inform government to brace for something and to have staff the hospitals as much as possible, just in case).

Still I don't think that it is really a point of argument if it is better to have all those people back or not. It is certainly better. It just comes with its own set of problems. Some funny ones (like siblings suddenly switching who is the older one), some really serious ones (like homelessness) and some unsolvable ones (like people basically dying because they got snapped back in the wrong place).

One thing is clear, there is a lot of resentment those who lived through the five years feel towards those who didn't.

 

[silverstream]

Well, considering there would have been a lot of people blipped back in the middle of roads, all those multi-car-pileups that undoubtedly happened alone would have justified giving everybody a heads-up, if nothing else.

(Now I'm starting to imagine what happened to people who blipped back into spaces already occupied by other people, and just... no.)

Edited March 27, 2021 by silverstream

[GHScorpiosRule]

I haven’t read all the comments, but I saw this last night and really enjoyed it.

I squeed: MARTIAN MAN HUNTER J’onn!!! when I saw Carl Lumbly.

I don’t know what the show is going for with this Fake! Captain America. On a purely shallow note, his dad is much better looking. His mouth looks like he’s got tobacco chaw stuffed between his bottom lips and teeth.

Sam and Bucky are not sidekicks by any means. At least Bucky isn’t in this universe and this “Captain America” comes off like a condescending DOUCHE. And he just looks ridiculous when he’s got the Captain’s helmet. Chris Evans could pull it off. Maybe it’s the magic of Chris, I dunno. This guy is a tool and not worthy of the Shield.

I’m just here for the ride.

[lawrbk]

On 3/26/2021 at 6:44 AM, SeanC said:

That was retconned in the comics too (the original Isaiah Bradley story never actually fit the comics timeline anyway).

Granted that this is all still early, but the worldbuilding in this series remains rather shaky.  The supposed differences between the pre- and post-Blip periods don't seem to really fit with what we were shown before.  Nor am I really sure how Bucky knows so much about Isaiah or where he lives, etc., if all that happened is he fought him once in Korea.

I think they retconned it because of the age issue. I wonder if they’ll go into the side effects on Isaiah? Steve’s still the only 100% success story. 
I felt the scene with the cops was a little forced. I know it happens but it just felt wedged in to me. Usually the ‘stop for id for no reason’ comes when blacks are someplace ‘they don’t belong’ ie white neighborhoods. Unless they think Sam was harassing Bucky the white dude. But it rang hollow to me. 
liked the therapy scene. I like that they’re prickly with one another. They really don’t know each other that well and most of that time Bucky was trying to kill him. Steve is their connection.

And speaking of forced. THREE medals of honor? GMAFB. there like one person in all the history of the decoration who has two. And most MOHs are given posthumously because of the level of heroism. And there are way less for the wars or terrorist attacks Walker would have fought in. And that he’s so good throwing the shield? Please. So stupid. 
 

 

[lawrbk]

18 hours ago, norcalgal said:

 

Agreed on the differences between Steve and John Walker. The serum just enhanced the "good guy" quality Steve always had...and would still have had even without the serum.

I think one of the reasons why Steve/Peggy are my OTP is because the Steve that Peggy loves is the "good guy" pre/serum and pre-Captain America.  That's why in the Agent Carter series and in Avengers: Endgame, the photo of Steve Peggy chooses to keep is pre-serum Steve. She got to know and interact with him pre-serum and that's when she began to fall for him (imho). And then, she further interacted with him post-serum and that's when she truly fell for him because it just cemented her feelings even more. 

 

Agree 100%. Steggy forever. 🙂 

I am all here for salty Bucky. He’s so possessive of Steve’s memory and legacy even towards Sam for giving up the shield. That was Steve’s wish somehow *dare* Sam renounce it. Even though you know Steve would understand. He had his own issues with society and the government. He didn’t blindly follow orders. 
 

and the wingmen comments. I sort of get it. He’s military. Sam even referred to Riley this way. But most people hear it as sidekick. That’s why Battlestar doesn’t both me the way he does some. He’s walker’s senior NCO basically not his sidekick. Same with Bucky and Sam with Steve. It was more a military hierarchy. I think that’s why Rhodey didn’t fuss either even though Tony wasn’t military. Plus these guys are all friends. A sidekick is more like Robin to Batman in the tv series of Bucky in the original comics. But still, no way are Sam and Bucky here for that nonsense from Walker.

[LJones41]

Quote

And yes, Walker is totally condescending towards the existing Avengers. This guy has done nothing to deserve the title which was given to him by overriding Steve's wishes, and he acts as if he is someone special.

Considering the Avengers' talent for condescension, I'm not that upset.

 

The writing for this second episode - (1.02) “The Star Spangled Man” - seemed to be all over the map to me … and not in a good way. Although it featured some pretty good and/or powerful scenes, there many moments or scenes that did not make sense to me.  

As I had stated, there were a few scenes that impressed me.  I liked how the episode introduced the John Walker aka Captain America character.  I thought the screenwriter did a good job of portraying him in a more complex manner than Marvel Comics did by conveying his doubts to take on the Captain America mantle and his friendship with Lemar Hoskins aka Battlestar.  I found Sam Wilson’s initial meeting with the only black Captain America so far - Isiah Bradley - very powerful, thanks to Carl Lumbly’s performance as the latter.  I also found Sam and Bucky Barnes aka the Winter Soldier’s encounter with the Baltimore Police rather interesting … and uncomfortably familiar.  And I thought the Flag Smashers’ escape from a group trying to destroy them well shot and exciting.  

So … what went wrong for me?  One, how on earth was Bucky allowed to join Sam’s mission in Germany without anyone bothering to stop or reject him?  I found the idea of Bucky forcing himself into Sam’s mission without the latter’s permission made him look like a privileged jackass.  I also found his behavior annoying and implausible.

Following the failure of the Munich, Germany mission, Sam and Bucky refused to work with the new Captain America and Battlestar, with Sam declaring them both as “free agents”.  Why did Sam call himself a “free agent”, when his job as a contractor for the U.S. Air Force was established int he previous episode, (1.01) “New World Order”?  And why did Sam fail to report to the Air Force, following the failure of his mission?

I realized many had automatically expressed hostility at Walker and Hoskins as the new Captain America and Battlestar.  I … did not.  Both Sam and Bucky had behaved like jerks when Walker tried to recruit the pair for his team.  Sam and Bucky’s negative behavior led both Walker and Hoskins to respond with jerkish behavior of their own.  Walker also managed to force Sam and Bucky to attend a session with the latter’s Dr. Christina Raynor; yet he could not force them to join his team in their search for the Flag-Smashers?  What was that about?  I found this contradictory.  And what was the point of that session with Dr. Raynor in the first place?  So that Sam and Bucky could finally establish their issues with each other?  That scenario could have been accomplished without that ridiculous therapy session and those even more ridiculous jokes.  

The episode ended with Bucky suggesting that he and Sam seek out an interview with the imprisoned Helmut Zemo from “CAPTAIN AMERICA: CIVIL WAR” in order to seek information on the Flag-Smashers.  After the events in Germany and Bucky’s arrest in Baltimore, I am curious to see how they will be to accomplish an interview with Zemo.

It may seem that I did not like “The Star Spangled Man” overall, but  … you know what?  Perhaps I did not like it after all.  I simply have too many issues with it.

 

Quote

He’s walker’s senior NCO basically not his sidekick. Same with Bucky and Sam with Steve. It was more a military hierarchy.

Sam was never Steve's NCO.  They were never in the military together.  And unlike Bucky, Sam was an officer.  Sam was a former veteran whom Steve had turned to for help, when he and Natasha were being pursued by HYDRA.  They eventually became friends.  The only time Sam "officially" served under Steve was during the period both were part of the Avengers between "Ultron" and "Civil War".

 

 

Edited March 27, 2021 by LJones41

[AimingforYoko]

6 hours ago, Gin and Tonic said:

Isaiah was jailed for 30 years and eventually came to HYDRA’s attention. 

No, Isaiah was jailed and immediately came to HYDRA's attention. HYDRA was SHIELD. There's zero chance SHIELD was not involved in the super soldier program.

[bethy]

Overall, I like the episode. But there were missing beats and weird connections that made it seem to me like they had a bunch of scenes they wanted to include, but weren't all that concerned about how they held together or even logically flowed. While I enjoyed the therapy scene because of the Sam and Bucky interaction, how they got there didn't make much sense to me. Given  the last thing we'd heard about Sam from the therapist - that Bucky had been ignoring his texts - why would she suddenly include Sam in Bucky's therapy session and treat them like friends or partners who needed couples therapy?  

Walker calling Bucky "Bucky" got on my nerves, too, but I think it's interesting that the only time Bucky complained about what he was called was when Sam called him "Buck," saying that was what Steve called him. 

I hope that those two revelations at the end of the therapy session - that Bucky's afraid Steve was wrong about him and that Sam is comfortable with the fact that he thought giving up the shield was the right thing to do at the time - will give those two guys some insight into each other that will help them have a little compassion for the other one. 

[swanpride]

Walker just using Bucky and Sam's first name was another thing which bothered me about him. Perhaps it is a cultural thing, but just calling someone by his first name is extremely bad manners.

Sam was right, btw, it is always the last line with him.

(I also don't think that the scene with the Police officers was in any way unrealistic. That is exactly the kind of scenario which has cost multiple people their lives already and I am inclined to believe all the people who report to have experience something similar. And it is naturally there because it fits into the general theme of the show).

[festivus]

13 minutes ago, bethy said:

Walker calling Bucky "Bucky" got on my nerves, too, but I think it's interesting that the only time Bucky complained about what he was called was when Sam called him "Buck," saying that was what Steve called him. 

I think because C-Mart America calling him Bucky was only mildly irritating in the fact that he was already over it. Bucky was not and will not be giving this guy a chance. His singular focus seems to be on Sam giving up the Shield. Which is part of why he forced himself on that mission I think. The other being that supersoldiers are running around and he feels like it's his duty to deal with that. As far as the other I'd say Bucky doesn't think he has any friends but Steve. So no calling him Buck, the friendly nickname. Even his friendship with Yori is tainted with his awful secret. And I just thought he probably does have some friends in Wakanda but feels like he doesn't deserve them. Dude is effed up.

[RedElf]

On 3/26/2021 at 9:10 AM, Llywela said:

Because he is a soldier, currently serving. His service record is part of the reason he was chosen as the new Captain America. 

And once again one of my pet peeves about military characters in movies and TV shows.  His haircut is not Army regulation.  And those sideburns would have to go.

On 3/26/2021 at 11:21 AM, notagain said:

The flag smashers as the big bad is not working for me. I don't care for their political beliefs, and the show is not helping, this entire episode juxtaposed their “ One people, One world” against American’s methodology,  “many people under one flag”. America’s isn't working, so why would the Flag Smashers’ theology work any better. 

They aren't the Big Bad.  It looks like the Big Bad is going to be The Power Broker, whom Karli name dropped and who was probably the one texting her.  That is, unless Zemo starts running amok.

On 3/26/2021 at 11:40 AM, calliope1975 said:

And Wyatt Russell is doing a great job of almost being a good guy but getting douchier by the minute. I'm interested to see where he'll land on the hero to villain spectrum when this is over. 

I hope we get scenes of him with his wife/girlfriend, like in the locker room, where she takes him to task for being an a-hole.

[swanpride]

Btw, what it is saying about Bucky's parents that they named him after James Buchanan of all people?

Bucky didn't really have an opportunity to snap over being called by his first name, because he was already pretty angry at walker beforehand.

[foxfreakinmulder]

10 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

Now, here's where my wishful thinking comes in. I know, I know, we all made our little mistakes having false expectations in WandaVision... but come on, you can't watch a geeky superhero show like this without some wishful thinking. And for me, gosh, if only Chris Evans would show up for just a small cameo again or something as old Cap, and then perhaps "Captain America March" (or an updated version of it) starts playing. Oh man... lol

Oh Yeah!! But sadly I know Chris Evans isn't going to show up 😞. I never knew how much I would miss Steve as Captain America until this episode. And for me he is the only Captain America. I don't read the comic and don't plan on watching any of the new Avengers movies. The only one I'll watch is Guardians of the Galaxy 3. I'm only interested in this show because of Bucky's story. But I am enjoying it.

I did like the call back to White Wolf and had a LOL at the therapy session, "you want the left side or the right side" 🙂

Like others have mentioned I too thought the fight on top of the trucks with cars following was a little out there. And no way could fake Cap get knocked off the top of a truck and smash into a moving vehicle's windshield and get up and walk away without injuries. And I also agree that the way he was training with the shield was not like a normal human, he was throwing it pretty far and hard. 

This episode went by way too fast.

Sorry it I've missed this but is this a limited series like Wanda Vision or is this going to have more than 1 season?

[festivus]

2 minutes ago, foxfreakinmulder said:

Sorry it I've missed this but is this a limited series like Wanda Vision or is this going to have more than 1 season?

So far, it's a limited series but I would bet that they are considering more.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, lawrbk said:

I felt the scene with the cops was a little forced. I know it happens but it just felt wedged in to me. Usually the ‘stop for id for no reason’ comes when blacks are someplace ‘they don’t belong’ ie white neighborhoods. Unless they think Sam was harassing Bucky the white dude. But it rang hollow to me. 

The one cop expressly asked Bucky if Sam was bothering him  So yes, he/they had jumped to the conclusion that black guy was harassing white guy and they should step in.

41 minutes ago, LJones41 said:

 One, how on earth was Bucky allowed to join Sam’s mission in Germany without anyone bothering to stop or reject him?  I found the idea of Bucky forcing himself into Sam’s mission without the latter’s permission made him look like a privileged jackass.  I also found his behavior annoying and implausible.

Following the failure of the Munich, Germany mission, Sam and Bucky refused to work with the new Captain America and Battlestar, with Sam declaring them both as “free agents”.  Why did Sam call himself a “free agent”, when his job as a contractor for the U.S. Air Force was established int he previous episode, (1.01) “New World Order”?  And why did Sam fail to report to the Air Force, following the failure of his mission?

I realized many had automatically expressed hostility at Walker and Hoskins as the new Captain America and Battlestar.  I … did not.  Both Sam and Bucky had behaved like jerks when Walker tried to recruit the pair for his team.  Sam and Bucky’s negative behavior led both Walker and Hoskins to respond with jerkish behavior of their own.  Walker also managed to force Sam and Bucky to attend a session with the latter’s Dr. Christina Raynor; yet he could not force them to join his team in their search for the Flag-Smashers?  What was that about? 

I imagine that Sam has a fair amount of leeway to operate. So if he doesn't care about Bucky joining or wants Bucky to join, it'll probably happen. I think the more unbelievable thing would be that Bucky could track Sam down in person that easily and that he would volunteer to go to Munich to complain to Sam for a flight of 6-8 hours about giving up the shield.

Sam and Bucky are free agents. As far as we have seen, Sam works specific cases for the government, but even in the face of the Sokovia Accords, he and Bucky presumably can choose to go where they want and do not have to go where someone else wants them to go. Walker and Battlestar don't have the luxury of turning down orders or acting independently.

What makes you think that he failed to report the failure of his mission? Presumably, Sam and Bucky got back from Munich on an Air Force transport and had hours to do whatever debriefing that the Air Force required.

Walker did not force Bucky to do any therapy. Walker pulled strings to get Bucky released and to loosen the mandatory therapy requirement to give more flexibility. It was Raynor who insisted that as a condition of Bucky's release that he immediately make up the missed therapy session then and there. She had no authority as far as I can tell to rope Sam into it, nor any reason to think that Sam should be part of the therapy session. But it allowed for funny, so I guess I'll handwave it.

Why would Walker be able to force Bucky and Sam to be his teammate? How would he do so? And even if he could, why would he want to? 

35 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said:

No, Isaiah was jailed and immediately came to HYDRA's attention. HYDRA was SHIELD. There's zero chance SHIELD was not involved in the super soldier program.

Presumably, Isaiah was on Hydra's radar when he sent their best agent scurrying back with a busted up metal arm. This would have been before Isaiah was jailed.

Hydra took some time to grow "like a beautiful parasite," to quote Zola. It is unclear when exactly Isaiah was first imprisoned. But even if we were to assume that it was at a point where the Hydra presence in SHIELD was pretty well developed, it's not a given that a) SHIELD was involved directly in the imprisonment/experimentation on Isaiah and b) if they were, that the Hydra agents within SHIELD would have access to that information.

[RedElf]

I'm a little confused about Isaiah's time line.  He fought in the Korean War, and then sometime presumably in the 50s, he was jailed for thirty years, which means that he came out of jail sometime in the 80s.  Yet he has a teenaged grandson, so how old was his child, the grandson's parent, when the grandson was born?

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, AimingforYoko said:

No, Isaiah was jailed and immediately came to HYDRA's attention. HYDRA was SHIELD. There's zero chance SHIELD was not involved in the super soldier program.

Hydra was operating within SHIELD, sure. It does not automatically follow that they were only operating within SHIELD - they had lots of fingers in other pies also.

[MochaJay]

6 hours ago, swanpride said:

The interesting part is more that there is a surviving witness of the Winter Soldiers existence (other than Natasha) and yet he was kept under wraps.

The existence of the Winter Soldier AND the continued existence of Hydra.

Another reason why secret unethical experiments are ultimately self-defeating. Isaiah had this information but never shared it to anybody that could use it, because he had nobody to trust. 

1 hour ago, AimingforYoko said:

No, Isaiah was jailed and immediately came to HYDRA's attention. HYDRA was SHIELD. There's zero chance SHIELD was not involved in the super soldier program.

1951 is early in the timeline of SHIELD. The experiments on Isaiah could have been run by a different arm of the American Government, also infiltrated by Hydra.

 

It may well come back to Zola. In the late 40's he could have even been experimenting on Isaiah & peers even as he continued the experimenting on Bucky to create the WS. Bucky fell from the train minutes before Zola was captured, does he even know about Operation Paperclip?

1 hour ago, bethy said:

While I enjoyed the therapy scene because of the Sam and Bucky interaction, how they got there didn't make much sense to me. Given  the last thing we'd heard about Sam from the therapist - that Bucky had been ignoring his texts - why would she suddenly include Sam in Bucky's therapy session and treat them like friends or partners who needed couples therapy?  

... 

I hope that those two revelations at the end of the therapy session - that Bucky's afraid Steve was wrong about him and that Sam is comfortable with the fact that he thought giving up the shield was the right thing to do at the time - will give those two guys some insight into each other that will help them have a little compassion for the other one. 

You answered your own question. Dr Raynor included Sam in the therapy session to get them communicating.

She has been treating Bucky for months, she already knew about Sam so knew that he is a large part (the main strand) of Bucky's support system. It seems the ignoring Sam's text was a new development, which she linked to her observation that Bucky had been 'off' in their last session.

[Chicago Redshirt]

49 minutes ago, RedElf said:

I'm a little confused about Isaiah's time line.  He fought in the Korean War, and then sometime presumably in the 50s, he was jailed for thirty years, which means that he came out of jail sometime in the 80s.  Yet he has a teenaged grandson, so how old was his child, the grandson's parent, when the grandson was born?

We're just guessing, of course.

But a few possibilities:

A. Isaiah had a kid in the 70s or 80s (early release/conjugal visit) through conventional means; Isaiah's kid could as an early 20something have Eli in the early aughts through conventional means. This would put Eli as a teenager in 2023.

B. Isaiah had a kid in the 1950s through conventional means, and that kid had Eli through conventional means when he was 50ish, still around the aughts. 

C.  Either Isaiah's kid or Eli is the result of experimentation (artificial insemination/cloning/etc.), in which case things could have happened at various times. 

[Kel Varnsen]

6 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Of fcourse, this is the contention that Thanos made all along - it would be better for those who remain, when resources were easier to share around. His plan was monstrous, but there was always a certain amount of cold, Malthusian logic to it. 

Except Thanos wiped out all life. So there are half as many people on earth but also half as many resources they need to survive. Half as many cows and chickens and possibly half as many crops and half as many trees.

5 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

.

I would also argue that the line doesn't fully make sense because there would be information about Hydra/SHIELD activities that would not be digital, that would be actual disinformation, that would be mistaken, incomplete, conflicting, etc. So I take that as an oversimplification of events to say Natasha released all the information.  

Even taking TWS at face value, Natasha released the entirety of Hydra and SHIELD's information to the world as it existed back in 2014. It's now 2023 in the Marvel universe so at best that information is nine years out of date.

And even if we were to say that the information Natasha leaked were somehow complete at the time and updated, there would have to be tons of information to sort through. Someone like Zemo could at least somewhat shortcut what they might be looking for.

Yea it is pretty clear that whatever information about Hydra that Zemo found was still only a starting point. We saw the scene in Civil War where he still had to torture that guy to get the details about the Winter Soldier.

[Danny Franks]

50 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Except Thanos wiped out all life. So there are half as many people on earth but also half as many resources they need to survive. Half as many cows and chickens and possibly half as many crops and half as many trees.

But still the same amount of fresh water, one of the resources that is most threatened in several parts of the world, and half the need for energy production. And it's quicker to rebuild plant and animal stocks, particularly of domesticated varieties, than it's likely to be for a stunned, traumatised human population to recover.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Danny Franks

[calliope1975]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Why would Walker be able to force Bucky and Sam to be his teammate? How would he do so? And even if he could, why would he want to? 

This is just a guess, but Cosplay Cap said he followed the Avengers. What better way to show he's now CapAm then by creating his own little Avengers team with Falcon (an Avenger) and Bucky (OG Cap's best friend and reformed assassin)? It would legitimize him. Sure, he got quite the fanfare welcome in his hometown, but I wonder what the general response from the rest of America/the World is to new Cap. I also noticed how excited Walker and his wingman were to be fighting the Supes until the Supes kicked their asses. He's definitely a soldier through and through but how much, if any, experience does he have with the Big Three? 

I randomly just remembered Thor's response to meeting Carol. What would his response be to meeting John?

 

[AimingforYoko]

2 hours ago, MochaJay said:

1951 is early in the timeline of SHIELD. The experiments on Isaiah could have been run by a different arm of the American Government, also infiltrated by Hydra.

Except the original program was run by the SSR. SSR--->SHIELD as OSS--->CIA

[Cobalt Stargazer]

21 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

But still the same amount of fresh water, one of the resources that is most threatened in several parts of the world, and half the need for energy production. And it's quicker to rebuild plant and animal stocks, particularly of domesticated varieties, than it's likely to be for a stunned, traumatised human population to recover.

I could be misremembering, but didn't someone do the math and find out that all of the people who disappeared in the Snap would eventually be 'made up for' in terms of consuming resources? I wouldn't think that the birth rate would be affected long term, so not only was Thanos' plan insane it wouldn't even really work, at least not forever. Because that was the point, that he meant for it to be a permanent fix, and I don't see how that would be possible.
 

23 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I randomly just remembered Thor's response to meeting Carol. What would his response be to meeting John?

I have a hard time imagining Walker standing there calmly as an axe sails past his head, so there's your answer. XD

[Emily Thrace]

17 hours ago, lemotomato said:

It was an important scene because it set up Sam's explanation to Bucky about why he gave up Cap's shield. "Maybe this is something that you or Steve will never understand. But can you accept that I did what I thought was right?" A huge part of Sam's journey in the series is about "racial politics" and what it means to inherit the mantle of Captain America as a black man. 

Yeah I actually really like that they are addressing that. The MCU has tried to be apolitical but I guess since this isn't relying on box office receipts from most of the planet they can afford to be a little controversial and tell a more specifically American story.

It is bugging me a little that Bucky is shown as being completely clueless about American race relations. He fought with a black man for most of WW2 and he grew up Irish in Brooklyn in the 20s and 30s he would have at least witnessed some of what Sam has dealt with. Not that I'm comparing the old "No dogs or Irish" style discrimination to what Sam has lived through they are completely different experiences but Bucky probably should understand a bit better than the show has given him credit for at this point. Bucky isn't Walker the embodiment of white privilege it would be a nice shade of gray to add to this story. Not too mention something that helps underline how far the world has come. Bucky is not some alien who got dropped on Earth it shouldn't be a mystery to him why Sam feels like less than. 

[paigow]

Shuri called him Sgt. Barnes...he said to use Bucky. Walker has 3 valid options: Bucky; James; and Barnes.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, calliope1975 said:

This is just a guess, but Cosplay Cap said he followed the Avengers. What better way to show he's now CapAm then by creating his own little Avengers team with Falcon (an Avenger) and Bucky (OG Cap's best friend and reformed assassin)? It would legitimize him. Sure, he got quite the fanfare welcome in his hometown, but I wonder what the general response from the rest of America/the World is to new Cap. I also noticed how excited Walker and his wingman were to be fighting the Supes until the Supes kicked their asses. He's definitely a soldier through and through but how much, if any, experience does he have with the Big Three? 

I randomly just remembered Thor's response to meeting Carol. What would his response be to meeting John?

 

Obviously it would be a coup to have Sam and Bucky voluntarily working with him. But having them working with him against their will means that he probably loses out both on the propaganda value of having them show they are cool with him as Cap. It would also mean that they would be less likely to be effective and they might even undermine their efforts out of resentment for being forced.

[Danny Franks]

54 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I could be misremembering, but didn't someone do the math and find out that all of the people who disappeared in the Snap would eventually be 'made up for' in terms of consuming resources? I wouldn't think that the birth rate would be affected long term, so not only was Thanos' plan insane it wouldn't even really work, at least not forever. Because that was the point, that he meant for it to be a permanent fix, and I don't see how that would be possible.

Probably not, but if Thanos factored in birthrates dropping like is expected for Earth (the total global population is currently predicted to hit just under 10 billion in 2050 before slowly beginning to drop) then he might have reasons for believing a lower population will be permanent.

Ultimately his plan was full of holes because you can't just do the maths and find the solution to life. Nor can you assume (like Thomas Malthus did) that the world has a finite amount of resources that cannot be stretched or supplemented by artificial means. Someone else could easily have come along and figured out a way to create more resources. Hell, Thanos himself could have done that with the Infinity Gauntlet, but he just wanted to kill people.

But his claim that he was making life better for the living beings who were left - like those on Gamora's home world - does have some merit, when you take out the 'trivial' issues of losing loved ones and experiencing societal collapse. These Flag Smashers certainly feel they've lost something important now all the Snapped people are back.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, Emily Thrace said:

Yeah I actually really like that they are addressing that. The MCU has tried to be apolitical but I guess since this isn't relying on box office receipts from most of the planet they can afford to be a little controversial and tell a more specifically American story.

It is bugging me a little that Bucky is shown as being completely clueless about American race relations. He fought with a black man for most of WW2 and he grew up Irish in Brooklyn in the 20s and 30s he would have at least witnessed some of what Sam has dealt with. Not that I'm comparing the old "No dogs or Irish" style discrimination to what Sam has lived through they are completely different experiences but Bucky probably should understand a bit better than the show has given him credit for at this point. Bucky isn't Walker the embodiment of white privilege it would be a nice shade of gray to add to this story. Not too mention something that helps underline how far the world has come. Bucky is not some alien who got dropped on Earth it shouldn't be a mystery to him why Sam feels like less than. 

I would say that Bucky hasn't been shown to be clueless at all, or at least I can't think of scenes where he has explicitly been any more clueless about race than a 21st century well-meaning white person. Bucky seemed to get the racism of the cops doing the stop, and did what a lot of contemporary people would do: just give them the ID and it'll be fine. Part of his wanting to leave Isaiah alone was recognizing how fucked over he had been. 

If anything, he is surprisingly evolved for a white person who was raised in the 20s and 30s. I don't think the average one would date an Asian woman as an equal as Bucky did. Bucky is apparently needing Sam to spell out the real reason why Sam didn't keep the shield: because he believes that America just is not ready for a black Captain America. Maybe they will explore in What If what would happen if he had just taken up the mantle of Captain America, but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have been doing any press tours and marching bands for Sam.

Sam could be right about America not welcoming a black Cap, Sam could be wrong about that, but I think it isn't surprising that someone who was had a chance to catch Steve's optimism about the world apparently has not figured that this would be a consideration for Sam.

[arc]

1 hour ago, Emily Thrace said:

It is bugging me a little that Bucky is shown as being completely clueless about American race relations.

There are a lot of real life white people who are completely clueless about American race relations. Like, at any point in history where surveys have been taken, the majority of white people have said Black people are being treated fairly and equally.

(If anything, Bucky and MCU Steve have been way way more progressive and willing to live in the modern world than Ultimate Universe Cap, who really was a product of his time.)

[Cobalt Stargazer]

4 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

 Part of his wanting to leave Isaiah alone was recognizing how fucked over he had been.

Except this just highlights A) that Isaiah's situation is not identical to Bucky's and B) the expectation (I guess, that might be the wrong word) that Isaiah should be "more understanding" since he and Bucky experienced similar things. Similar. Not exactly alike. Both of them being experimented on against their will doesn't take into consideration how much help Bucky has gotten along the way. From Steve. From Shuri. From Dr. Raynor. From the government, since it doesn't matter how short a tether they're keeping him on or even if he's not directly responsible for the long trail of dead bodies left behind by the Winter Solider. As far as we know, Isaiah was not used to assassinate a whole bunch of innocent people since he was sent to kill the Solider after however many other people failed, and then he was tossed aside anyway. As sympathetic as we may be towards Barnes, he has benefited due to various factors where Isaiah absolutely has not. Even if it isn't what could be traditionally called white privilege, I'm not sure if it isn't in the same zip code.

[Crs97]

I am thrilled that they aren’t shying away from the race issues.  I was worried that TPTB wouldn’t go there for fear of losing some of their audience.  So happy Marvel didn’t let that dictate their decisions.

Isaiah broke my heart, and I hope he has more to do.  I don’t read the comic books so that was an unexpected twist for me.

Really enjoying this so far!

[KittenPokerCheater]

2 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

Cosplay Cap

HA!
Love it!

[Emily Thrace]

1 hour ago, arc said:

There are a lot of real life white people who are completely clueless about American race relations. Like, at any point in history where surveys have been taken, the majority of white people have said Black people are being treated fairly and equally.

(If anything, Bucky and MCU Steve have been way way more progressive and willing to live in the modern world than Ultimate Universe Cap, who really was a product of his time.)

Except part of my point is that Bucky wasn't really considered white in the time and place he came from. Not the way we think of it now in any case. The MCU has never directly addressed it but its something that definitely influenced Bucky and Steve. I think that is part of what accounts for them being so progressive. Bucky being clueless feels like a bit of a retcon for Bucky (and Steve by extension) that is there mainly to give Sam a reason to talk about his feelings. I'm okay with TPTB short changing the white guy to further the black guys story ultimately since its such a nice change, I just think they may have missed a third option here. One that gives depth to the currently very thinly sketched Bucky Barnes but also to Steve Rogers.

[Chicago Redshirt]

42 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Except this just highlights A) that Isaiah's situation is not identical to Bucky's and B) the expectation (I guess, that might be the wrong word) that Isaiah should be "more understanding" since he and Bucky experienced similar things. Similar. Not exactly alike. Both of them being experimented on against their will doesn't take into consideration how much help Bucky has gotten along the way. From Steve. From Shuri. From Dr. Raynor. From the government, since it doesn't matter how short a tether they're keeping him on or even if he's not directly responsible for the long trail of dead bodies left behind by the Winter Solider. As far as we know, Isaiah was not used to assassinate a whole bunch of innocent people since he was sent to kill the Solider after however many other people failed, and then he was tossed aside anyway. As sympathetic as we may be towards Barnes, he has benefited due to various factors where Isaiah absolutely has not. Even if it isn't what could be traditionally called white privilege, I'm not sure if it isn't in the same zip code.

But I don't think that Bucky or anyone is claiming that Isaiah's situation was similar to Bucky's or that Isaiah should be more understanding.

As far as I can tell, Bucky brought Sam there for some combination of two reasons: 1. Because Isaiah might represent a lead on where the hell the SSS that the Flag Smashers were on came from or 2. It was part of his "you should have kept the Shield, Sam" effort.

The idea behind the second would be to try to say, hey they  did this brother wrong, but things have changed since then and you would have had a chance to stand out as the new Cap. Of course, that argument sort of fails spectacularly from the point of view of someone like Sam because it would be a reminder that we have not come all that far in the time since Isaiah was used and abused.

We don't know ultimately which Bucky was aiming for because Isaiah kicks them out and then the cops arrest him before he can explain what's up.