Predator and Prey: Assault, harassment, and other aggressions in the entertainment industry

[Guest]

John Barrowman Apologizes for Regularly Exposing Penis on 'Doctor Who'

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“With the benefit of hindsight, I understand that upset may have been caused by my exuberant behavior and I have apologized for this previously,” Barrowman said in the statement. “Since my [first] apology in November 2008, my understanding and behaviour have also changed.” 

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The veteran actor blamed his “high-spirited behavior” for the controversy and said his proclivity for exposing his penis in public was “only ever intended in good humor to entertain colleagues on set and backstage.”

A spokesman for the BBC confirmed to the Guardianthey were aware of the accusations and had reprimanded Barrowman in the past.

“We have a zero tolerance approach and robust processes are in place – which are regularly reviewed and updated to reflect best practice – to ensure any complaints or concerns are handled with the utmost seriousness and care,” the spokesman said.

Julie Gardner, the producer of Doctor Who, confirmed she had received complaints about Barrowman’s behavior, had added she had “reprimanded him” and made “clear to both John and his agent that behavior of this kind would not be tolerated.”

They also quote an anonymous source that things improved after David Tennant joined the show. Of course, that also coincides with Barrowman’s exit from Doctor Who. It makes it sound like Barrowman changed during Who when is behavior clearly continued on Torchwood. Barrowman didn’t even join the show until the tail end of season 1 and was written off at the end of the season.

Was he reprimanded or was he given his own show where he was the lead so people wouldn’t complain? The answer seems pretty clear. I love to hear what Chris Eccleston or Billie Piper have to say.

This “defense” makes me more critical than I was. At lot of the benefit of the doubt I was giving him flies out the window once it is revealed there were complaints he knew about and yet Freema and others were still subjected to that shit. Calling it “tomfoolery” and “exuberant behavior” shows he still doesn’t understand what is wrong with sticking your penis on someone shoulder. 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Guest

[Luckylyn]

17 minutes ago, Dani said:

John Barrowman Apologizes for Regularly Exposing Penis on 'Doctor Who'

They also quote an anonymous source that things improved after David Tennant joined the show. Of course, that also coincides with Barrowman’s exit from Doctor Who. It makes it sound like Barrowman changed during Who when is behavior clearly continued on Torchwood. Barrowman didn’t even join the show until the tail end of season 1 and was written off at the end of the season.

Was he reprimanded or was he given his own show where he was the lead so people wouldn’t complain? The answer seems pretty clear. I love to hear what Chris Eccleston or Billie Piper have to say.

This “defense” makes me more critical than I was. At lot of the benefit of the doubt I was giving him flies out the window once it is revealed there were complaints he knew about and yet Freeman and others were still subjected to that shit. Calling it “tomfoolery” and “exuberant behavior” shows it still doesn’t understand what is wrong with sticking your penis on someone shoulder. 

That article surprised me. I had heard the stories of Barrowman exposing himself but not about him touching people with it.  The flashing is bad enough but doing stuff like placing your penis on an actress as she sits in the makeup chair is too much.   

The stuff about things improving after Tennant joined the show I guess means Barrowman didn’t expose himself on set in the episodes he guest stared in during the Tennant era. But what exactly was happening on Torchwood because it happened there too.  I don’t buy he was reprimanded because it was ongoing apparently even when he moved on to Torchwood.  But the behavior did stop eventually so maybe after a long while something was said to him.

 I am fond of Barrowman but so disappointed too.

[Mabinogia]

10 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

 The flashing is bad enough but doing stuff like placing your penis on an actress as she sits in the makeup chair is too much.   

Yeah, that definitely crosses a line. I am also extremely disappointed that he'd been told to stop and kept going. That's not boyishly cute. That's just being a, well, dickhead. He is sadly one of those people I instantly adored but the more I learn about him and the more I've seen him as himself (rather than in character) the less I like him. 

[anna0852]

Something that has always confused me about Michael Weathley is that no one else has come forward about his behavior. Usually with these guys it's a pattern and one victim coming forward open the gates for others. But with him, nothing. 

Is he one of the rare ones who got called out the first time and actually changed his behavior?  

And to be clear, I don't think for a second he's innocent in anyway. This isn't me defending him. I'm just genuinely confused. 

[OtterMommy]

Just a reminder that this thread is for cases concerning celebrities.  This is not the place for personal stories.

Thank you!

[possibilities]

I honestly can't imagine thinking it would be amusing to flash ones genitals to people for fun, much less at work. What the hell? I don't think I've ever known anyone who considered that a humorous behavior, and something that might lighten up the atmosphere. 

I think there was something about Weatherly specifically wanting to target Dushku because of professional rivalry. He was threatened by her and didn't want her to be an equal in her role, he wanted to be the sole lead. So he expressed his hostility to her because she is the one who he wanted to intimidate.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, anna0852 said:

Something that has always confused me about Michael Weathley is that no one else has come forward about his behavior. Usually with these guys it's a pattern and one victim coming forward open the gates for others. But with him, nothing. 

Is he one of the rare ones who got called out the first time and actually changed his behavior?  

And to be clear, I don't think for a second he's innocent in anyway. This isn't me defending him. I'm just genuinely confused. 

I think it appears to be the pattern because of a relatively small number of high profile cases. The lone voice that is dismissed is far more common particularly when the accusations don’t involve rape. Particularly because the victims tend to be people who aren’t in a position of power. The further down the totem pole you are the more likely you are to be harassed and the less likely you are to speak out. 

Speaking out kills careers. Eliza Dushku hasn’t acted since she was fired from Bull while Weatherly still has a show in spite of costing the network $9 million dollars. That sends a pretty clear message to anyone else who might want to come forward. Sadly, we are still only hearing a fraction of the stories that are out there. 

ETA: There was that Hollywood survey released last year that found that 42% of the woman and 22% of the men who responded were “subjected to unwanted sexual attention” in just the previous year. 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Guest

[Mabinogia]

18 hours ago, Dani said:

Speaking out kills careers. Eliza Dushku hasn’t acted since she was fired from Bull while Weatherly still has a show in spite of costing the network $9 million dollars. That sends a pretty clear message to anyone else who might want to come forward. Sadly, we are still only hearing a fraction of the stories that are out there. 

That is absolutely heartbreaking. It's exactly why we don't hear a fraction of the stories out there, because it's usually the whistle blower who gets punished, not the perpetrator. 

[Spartan Girl]

It’s official: Gal Gadot confirmed Joss Whedon threatened her career on JL set

[Wiendish Fitch]

6 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

It’s official: Gal Gadot confirmed Joss Whedon threatened her career on JL set

Oh, ho, ho, Joss, you're really gonna eat it now. No one messes with the Spirit of Truth and gets away with it. Prepare to have your comfort zone demolished, buddy.

[Mabinogia]

Oh please, please, please let this be the end for Joss Whedon!!!!! I don't like this whole "cancel culture" we've got going, but if he still hasn't learned how to properly work with females he shouldn't be allowed to work with them. he's clearly not going to change so stop giving him jobs!!!!!!!

[Spartan Girl]

Is it wrong how much pleasure I’m reaping from what I dearly hope will be his downfall?

[Wiendish Fitch]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Is it wrong how much pleasure I’m reaping from what I dearly hope will be his downfall?

NOPE!

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

Oh please, please, please let this be the end for Joss Whedon!!!!! I don't like this whole "cancel culture" we've got going, but if he still hasn't learned how to properly work with females he shouldn't be allowed to work with them. he's clearly not going to change so stop giving him jobs!!!!!!!

Ray Fisher already spoke out about this stuff a year ago, I think.  It's just that Gal is now confirming it too.  Joss has a problem with a lot of people, not just with women.  

Edited May 9, 2021 by Ms Blue Jay

[Mabinogia]

16 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Is it wrong how much pleasure I’m reaping from what I dearly hope will be his downfall?

If it's wrong, I don't want to be right. Joss Whedon is just a grade A Asshole

[akg]

On 5/8/2021 at 8:47 PM, Spartan Girl said:

It’s official: Gal Gadot confirmed Joss Whedon threatened her career on JL set

I really wish she'd come forward with this when Ray Fisher first started talking. Everyone has the right to speak up when they feel comfortable but Ray shouldn't have been standing alone against WB. 

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, akg said:

I really wish she'd come forward with this when Ray Fisher first started talking. Everyone has the right to speak up when they feel comfortable but Ray shouldn't have been standing alone against WB. 

When Ray first spoke out there was an investigation happening and she did participate in that. Not long after the official investigation concluded she did speak out in support of Ray and was vague about her experience with Whedon. Now she just confirming some of the specifics. 

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I’m happy for Ray to go out and speak his truth. I wasn’t there with the guys when they shot with Joss Whedon — I had my own experience with [him], which wasn’t the best one, but I took care of it there and when it happened. I took it to the higher-ups and they took care of it. But I’m happy for Ray to go up and say his truth.

 

[Spartan Girl]

Her story about him threatening to make Diana look as awful as possible if she didn’t fall in line immediately reminded me of how Michelle Trachtenberg said he bullied her on the set of Buffy.

So this pretty much confirms that he wrote Dawn to be insufferable on purpose. Not just because he obviously hates teenage girls but also to intimidate Michelle. He knew how much fans hated Dawn and made it worse.

The only difference was Gal was able to stand up for herself and enlist help to handle it.

[Kromm]

On 5/7/2021 at 9:32 AM, ifionlyknew said:

This reminds me of a publicity event for the OJ Simpson miniseries when Cuba Gooding lifted up Sarah Paulson's skirt.  She laughed it off but I was horrified.  It was just a couple years later when he was accused multiple times of sexual abuse.

That movie was only like 5 years ago too.  It tells you how recently this cultural shift is. I mean I'm sure plenty of people were horrified then, but the default assumption probably WAS that it was just horsing around. 

[cleo]

If anyone was standing alone against Joss Whedon it was Charisma Carpenter, for years, and everyone on BtVS and Angel kept their mouths shut AFAIK. She also supported Fisher when he spoke up. 

[aradia22]

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I don't think exposing yourself is actually defensable, but I DO think that people's changing perceptions when hearing about it is. I think it used to often be considered as being in the "practical joke" camp, and it's only in recent years that people have been paying more attention to the subtleties, for example repeat offending with it, and especially seeming to "direct" it towards specific people. 

Agreed. Part of it is the culture. It's easy to find young people (at least online) who think kissing someone without consent is sexual assault. I'm not at that extreme. But I do think that on the positive side, we're getting better at saying that a lack of malicious/predatory intent doesn't change what is and isn't appropriate, especially in a workplace. 

Except on the part about it happening with everyone. Come on, it's usually men. 

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Every once in a while I will tweet asking why this show is still on the air and his fans come out of nowhere to defend him.  It's so weird.  

I'm not a big fan of his, but I can admit it's a good little procedural. It's not high art or anything but I haven't been interested in a procedural for years and yet sometimes my dad will be watching Bull and I'll get sucked into it. The thing is, it's so formulaic that they could shift the focus to any of the ensemble cast and do the same cases. It's not even as much of a "maverick genius" show as House or Monk. But because it was pitched as a Dr. Phil ego trip, I don't think the show will ever dump Weatherly and try to go on unless he does something more criminal. Even then, I think it's more likely to just get cancelled than to go on without him. 

[Cherpumple]

On 5/11/2021 at 12:36 AM, aradia22 said:

It's easy to find young people (at least online) who think kissing someone without consent is sexual assault. I'm not at that extreme.

Every once in a while I think back to the 2003 Oscars when Adrien Brody won Best Actor and planted a giant, unplanned kiss on Halle Berry when he got on stage. Many people thought it was a fun, shocking moment at the time and still look back on it fondly (in another clip I found from 2008 titled Favorite Oscar Moments, it was even called "the best" by a female Oscars editor), but I was very uncomfortable watching it, and felt terrible for Halle. She addressed it again briefly in 2017, and you can tell it was an unwelcome surprise, even though, yet again, it's laughed off by those around her (mainly, Andy Cohen). When I replay the incident in my head, it ends with Ms. Berry giving him a hard slap across the face.

[Guest]

On 5/10/2021 at 9:36 PM, aradia22 said:

Agreed. Part of it is the culture. It's easy to find young people (at least online) who think kissing someone without consent is sexual assault. I'm not at that extreme.

I’m trying to figure out why that view point in extreme. Obviously context matters but it is legally sexual assault. That belief isn’t limited to young people. 

[aradia22]

I don't think we should define every crime against the worst possible offenses (i.e. it's not sexual assault if it isn't rape) but I guess this is a place where I feel that having too broad of a definition dilutes the categorization. There should be some distinction between murder and manslaughter and negligence... legally. I'm in favor of talking about all of this more so it doesn't just fall under one umbrella and we have a deeper understanding of these issues and how to address and prevent them. 

Also, I'm talking about very silly online conversations. Guy went in for a kiss at the end of a date... sexual assault. Girl was dared to kiss someone on the cheek... sexual assault. Boyfriend kissed you while you were cooking and didn't want to be bothered... sexual assault. (I spend too much time on reddit).

[catlover79]

13 hours ago, Cherpumple said:

When I replay the incident in my head, it ends with Ms. Berry giving him a hard slap across the face.

For me, it's native Clevelander Ms. Berry giving him a knee somewhere south of the border. 😉

[Guest]

6 hours ago, aradia22 said:

 

I don't think we should define every crime against the worst possible offenses (i.e. it's not sexual assault if it isn't rape) but I guess this is a place where I feel that having too broad of a definition dilutes the categorization. There should be some distinction between murder and manslaughter and negligence... legally. I'm in favor of talking about all of this more so it doesn't just fall under one umbrella and we have a deeper understanding of these issues and how to address and prevent them. 

 

Legally there is a distinction. They fall under a blanket term but are treated differently. The complication is that the definition of consent varies from state to state. I live in a state with that requires affirmative consent which colors my perspective. 

6 hours ago, aradia22 said:

Also, I'm talking about very silly online conversations. Guy went in for a kiss at the end of a date... sexual assault. Girl was dared to kiss someone on the cheek... sexual assault. Boyfriend kissed you while you were cooking and didn't want to be bothered... sexual assault. (I spend too much time on reddit).

I think this is a very complicated time where we are redefining what consent is. Claiming sexual assault when the supposed “victim” is not upset is absurd but the wishes of the recipient of physical advances need to be considered more than they generally are. 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Guest

[Ms Blue Jay]

14 hours ago, Cherpumple said:

Every once in a while I think back to the 2003 Oscars when Adrien Brody won Best Actor and planted a giant, unplanned kiss on Halle Berry when he got on stage. Many people thought it was a fun, shocking moment at the time and still look back on it fondly (in another clip I found from 2008 titled Favorite Oscar Moments, it was even called "the best" by a female Oscars editor), but I was very uncomfortable watching it, and felt terrible for Halle. She addressed it again briefly in 2017, and you can tell it was an unwelcome surprise, even though, yet again, it's laughed off by those around her (mainly, Andy Cohen). When I replay the incident in my head, it ends with Ms. Berry giving him a hard slap across the face.

One positive is that there was definitely a camp of us who found that really uncomfortable even back then (you and I included).  But yeah, what the fuck was that.  

[aradia22]

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the wishes of the receipt of physical advances need to be considered more than they generally are

Agreed. I think it's important that this be a big part of the conversation... putting the onus on the person initiating physical contact. Because "yes" and "no" can be complicated in the moment, especially if you have reason to believe someone will react poorly, or you're at least unsure. The consent conversation is important but I think a lot of it still puts the pressure on the more vulnerable person rather than tasking the aggressor with empathy. When it comes to heterosexual relationships, we are still infantilizing men like they need simple commands to understand things and putting the burden of responsibility on women. 

I also think there's a gap between "upset" and "violated." My point is not to excuse any of this behavior but to say we need to have a greater depth of understanding for A) not violating boundaries B) processing what has happened/will happen C) figuring out what amends are necessary. This is for any contact that doesn't really rise to the level of sexually explicit. 

Slight tangent, I think a great more recent development has been teaching children that they have bodily autonomy and they don't have to kiss relatives/family friends or hug to make up. In hindsight, it's weird we allowed/encouraged that for so long.

Tried to google it and didn't find anything... has Adrien Brody ever apologized for that? 

[Luckylyn]

This conversation makes me think of that horrible moment on the MTV movie awards where Chris Isaak kissed Cameron Diaz against her will.  She’s clearly upset and he keeps invading her personal space.

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Luckylyn

[Guest]

5 hours ago, aradia22 said:

Agreed. I think it's important that this be a big part of the conversation... putting the onus on the person initiating physical contact. Because "yes" and "no" can be complicated in the moment, especially if you have reason to believe someone will react poorly, or you're at least unsure. The consent conversation is important but I think a lot of it still puts the pressure on the more vulnerable person rather than tasking the aggressor with empathy. When it comes to heterosexual relationships, we are still infantilizing men like they need simple commands to understand things and putting the burden of responsibility on women. 

I also think there's a gap between "upset" and "violated." My point is not to excuse any of this behavior but to say we need to have a greater depth of understanding for A) not violating boundaries B) processing what has happened/will happen C) figuring out what amends are necessary. This is for any contact that doesn't really rise to the level of sexually explicit. 

Thanks for explaining. I completely agree with you. I suppose that in many of the situations you are referring to, I don’t consider to be lacking consent. Consent is becoming one of those overused words in a way that, unfortunately, diminishes it’s importance. Some people seem to see all boundary stomping as abuse or assault which is counterproductive to progress.

5 hours ago, aradia22 said:

Slight tangent, I think a great more recent development has been teaching children that they have bodily autonomy and they don't have to kiss relatives/family friends or hug to make up. In hindsight, it's weird we allowed/encouraged that for so long.

This really is the heart of it. It’s great that we are now teaching people not to sacrifice their own comfort level and personal boundaries just to make other people happy. 

5 hours ago, aradia22 said:

Tried to google it and didn't find anything... has Adrien Brody ever apologized for that? 

He hasn’t. In 2015 he did an interview with Vanity Fair where that moment was brought up and it is clear from his answer he gave zero thought to her feelings. He does take the time to praise his own ability to remember who to thank and somehow mentions the Iraq War.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Guest

[aradia22]

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He hasn’t. In 2015 he did an interview with Vanity Fair where it was brought up and it is clear from his answer he gave zero thought to her feelings. He does take the time to praise his own ability to remember who to thank and somehow mentions the Iraq War.

Oof. Sometimes when someone does a Roman Polanski movie and then a Woody Allen movie and then thinks this is a fun stunt...

...maybe you stop giving them the benefit of the doubt.

[catlover79]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

He hasn’t. In 2015 he did an interview with Vanity Fair where it was brought up and it is clear from his answer he gave zero thought to her feelings. 

Consider the director of the movie that got Mr. Brody the Oscar - Roman Polanski. I rest my case!!

[Ms Blue Jay]

2 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

This conversation makes me think of that horrible moment on the MTV movie awards where Chris Isaak kissed Cameron Diaz against her will.  She’s clearly upset and he keeps invading her personal space.

 

Ew that's so fucking disgusting.

[Zella]

I don't support Polanski and wouldn't seek out his movies now but will admit to finding The Pianist very moving when I watched it at the time, before being aware of who he was. (I was in my early teens.)

That being said, Brody kissing Halle Berry at that Oscar ceremony always weirded me out, and it sounds like he is a colossal dick in general. Interestingly, I just clicked on his Wikipedia page and saw that last year it was reported that he was dating Harvey Weinstein's ex-wife and I don't even know what to do with that information. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

14 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Ew that's so fucking disgusting.

I'm so upset still thinking about this.  This is what men in the industry will do to women WHEN EVERYONE AND CAMERAS ARE WATCHING.  It's so scary to think what these men do behind closed doors.  Cameron was 23 at the time. Chris is 16 years older.  It wouldn't be right for any woman to be treated like this, but god, I had no idea that Chris was so gross.

There's a power imbalance when someone is so brand new to Hollywood versus someone who has been around for ages.   I'm sure Cameron felt helpless in that situation.  I hope that she and Jim were friendly from filming "The Mask" - by all accounts, they were (oh lord I hope) - and she was happy to be briefly on stage with him.  They did hire Cameron to play a love interest to a man 10 years older than she is though, which just helps reinforce Hollywood being a place with older men in power and younger, powerless women.  

Edited May 13, 2021 by Ms Blue Jay

[Danny Franks]

On 5/8/2021 at 12:24 AM, Mabinogia said:

Yeah, that definitely crosses a line. I am also extremely disappointed that he'd been told to stop and kept going. That's not boyishly cute. That's just being a, well, dickhead. He is sadly one of those people I instantly adored but the more I learn about him and the more I've seen him as himself (rather than in character) the less I like him. 

I feel like this is one of those incidents where, "hey, it's not sexual harassment, I'm gay!" is a likely excuse. As if draping your dick on someone's shoulder isn't offensive, regardless of each person's sexual identity.

I used similar terminology to Barrowman, a couple of pages back, though I called it puerile and childish while he went for "exuberant" but I thought he was just wandering around with his penis out, like a toddler who won't put his pants on. I didn't realise he was actually accosting people and forcing them to either accept him touching them or make a scene that might damage their own reputation and/or career prospects.

On 5/10/2021 at 4:33 AM, akg said:

I really wish she'd come forward with this when Ray Fisher first started talking. Everyone has the right to speak up when they feel comfortable but Ray shouldn't have been standing alone against WB. 

I think it just goes to show that, even with as high a profile and star power as Gal Gadot has, she still wasn't sure she could speak out against a male producer/director without damaging her career.

This is a calculation each person has to make - am I prepared to take the career hit that this will bring? And it's hard to really blame anyone who chooses to stay quiet, if they've worked all their lives to get to where they are. Again, that's why arguments like 'it was consensual' are so facile. Consent with coercion isn't consent.

23 hours ago, Cherpumple said:

When I replay the incident in my head, it ends with Ms. Berry giving him a hard slap across the face.

And headlines the next day of "Halle Berry freaks out at the Oscars! What a crazy woman!"

[WinnieWinkle]

7 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

And headlines the next day of "Halle Berry freaks out at the Oscars! What a crazy woman!"

Because the story will almost always be focused on how the woman reacted and not on what the man did.  And people wonder why there is a metoo movement out there.

[ifionlyknew]

8 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

 

I

And headlines the next day of "Halle Berry freaks out at the Oscars! What a crazy woman!"

This is true. Look what happened to Sean Young.

Look what happened to Rose McGowan.

 

[Wiendish Fitch]

2 hours ago, WinnieWinkle said:

Because the story will almost always be focused on how the woman reacted and not on what the man did.  And people wonder why there is a metoo movement out there.

1 hour ago, ifionlyknew said:

This is true. Look what happened to Sean Young.

Look what happened to Rose McGowan.

 

11 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I'm so upset still thinking about this.  This is what men in the industry will do to women WHEN EVERYONE AND CAMERAS ARE WATCHING.  It's so scary to think what these men do behind closed doors.  Cameron was 23 at the time. Chris is 16 years older.  It wouldn't be right for any woman to be treated like this, but god, I had no idea that Chris was so gross.

Remember a few years back at Aretha Franklin's funeral when Bishop Charles H. Ellis III got-ahem- a little too close to Ariana Grande? Maybe Bishop Ellis wasn't deliberately trying to cop a feel of a hot little pop star... but it was still a fucking funeral! He's a pastor old enough to be Grande's father, and he just saw fit to throw his arm around her in the ickiest way possible, which was utterly inappropriate on so many levels and wound up embarrassing her and making him look like a creep. Too many men have been conditioned to think that they can just put their hands on or throw their arms around random women literally any time, any place, any reason. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to excuse anybody, because as adults we have the ability to stop and think, "Wait, should I do this? No, probably not". 

And, of course, Grande got way too much blame for it, from the cut of her dress to the fact that she didn't fight him off. Okay, first off, what she was wearing is utterly irrelevant. Second, if she'd jerked away or socked Bishop Ellis in the jaw, she'd be labeled as a "crazy bitch" or "nasty woman" who ruined Aretha Franklin's funeral, and she'd be trying to live it down for years and years.

 

 

[Kromm]

18 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

And, of course, Grande got way too much blame for it, from the cut of her dress to the fact that she didn't fight him off. Okay, first off, what she was wearing is utterly irrelevant.

I've never liked the binary thinking on this. What she was wearing WAS totally inappropriate for a funeral.  But it also has nothing to do with creepy old dudes feeling they're allowed to touch her. The two things can both be true. She could have been standing there in a bikini, or even naked, and it's still not authorization to feel her up. 

[janie jones]

41 minutes ago, Kromm said:

I've never liked the binary thinking on this. What she was wearing WAS totally inappropriate for a funeral.  But it also has nothing to do with creepy old dudes feeling they're allowed to touch her. The two things can both be true. She could have been standing there in a bikini, or even naked, and it's still not authorization to feel her up. 

I'm not sure what this means, and maybe I'm splitting hairs. This is the first I've heard of this event, so I'm not familiar with the controversy. Were people blaming the fact that she was wearing something inappropriate, or the fact that she was wearing something revealing? Or I guess blaming revealing clothing and labeling it as "inappropriate for a funeral" rather than "revealing"? (I mean, baggy jeans and a baggy t-shirt would be inappropriate for a funeral, for example, but it's hardly the kind of attire that typically gets you blamed for sexual harassment/assault, so the blamer's problem isn't really with the appropriate dress code, but the amount of skin showing. And if you're the kind of person who's blaming her because she was wearing something so revealing that it's inappropriate for a funeral, you're still going to blame her clothes if she's showing the same amount of skin at a club and gets sexually harassed.)

Edited May 13, 2021 by janie jones

[Rootbeer]

4 hours ago, janie jones said:

I'm not sure what this means, and maybe I'm splitting hairs. This is the first I've heard of this event, so I'm not familiar with the controversy. Were people blaming the fact that she was wearing something inappropriate, or the fact that she was wearing something revealing? Or I guess blaming revealing clothing and labeling it as "inappropriate for a funeral" rather than "revealing"? (I mean, baggy jeans and a baggy t-shirt would be inappropriate for a funeral, for example, but it's hardly the kind of attire that typically gets you blamed for sexual harassment/assault, so the blamer's problem isn't really with the appropriate dress code, but the amount of skin showing. And if you're the kind of person who's blaming her because she was wearing something so revealing that it's inappropriate for a funeral, you're still going to blame her clothes if she's showing the same amount of skin at a club and gets sexually harassed.)

https://s.hdnux.com/photos/75/31/61/16096356/3/920x920.jpg

A picture of Grande performing at Franklin's funeral.  Not the typical sort of clothing one wears to a funeral.  I don't remember Grande's outfit getting blamed for the Reverend copping a feel.  I do think more than one person noted that her outfit was better suited to a performance in Vegas than a Baptist funeral.

 I think the previous poster's point was that there were two issues involved here.  There were those who felt our outfit was a bit too 'look at me' for a funeral and many of those same people were also appalled when the preacher got handsy.  I was one of them, too.

The Reverend, who also 'joked' that her name sounded like a menu item at Taco Bell when introducing her, did later apologize both for his words and his actions.

https://people.com/music/aretha-franklin-funera-bishop-apologizes-to-ariana-grande-touching-taco-bell/

Edited May 13, 2021 by Rootbeer

[Ms Blue Jay]

[Vermicious Knid]

Did anyone know, or remember, Peter Yarrow of Peter, Paul, and Mary is a pedophile? And I always loved Puff the Magic Dragon. 😡

[Ms Blue Jay]

Dylan Farrow is on The Drew Barrymore Show today.  Pretty interesting and cool of Drew to give Dylan this platform.  Drew speaks openly of how she was in "Everybody Says I Love you" a 1996 Woody Allen movie but has now reconsidered everything.

This says that the full episode will premiere here in 6 hours.  Not sure if that's true.

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Ms Blue Jay

[Crashcourse]

On 5/13/2021 at 6:16 PM, Rootbeer said:

https://s.hdnux.com/photos/75/31/61/16096356/3/920x920.jpg

A picture of Grande performing at Franklin's funeral.  Not the typical sort of clothing one wears to a funeral.  I don't remember Grande's outfit getting blamed for the Reverend copping a feel.  I do think more than one person noted that her outfit was better suited to a performance in Vegas than a Baptist funeral.

 I think the previous poster's point was that there were two issues involved here.  There were those who felt our outfit was a bit too 'look at me' for a funeral and many of those same people were also appalled when the preacher got handsy.  I was one of them, too.

The Reverend, who also 'joked' that her name sounded like a menu item at Taco Bell when introducing her, did later apologize both for his words and his actions.

https://people.com/music/aretha-franklin-funera-bishop-apologizes-to-ariana-grande-touching-taco-bell/

I watched that funeral on tv and I remember Jesse Jackson sitting there, trying his best not to look at Ariana Grande.  I was uncomfortable watching her, but I agree the preacher was out of line.  

[Cherpumple]

11 hours ago, Crashcourse said:

I watched that funeral on tv and I remember Jesse Jackson sitting there, trying his best not to look at Ariana Grande.

Just FYI, but Jesse Jackson was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease in 2015, so I don't know how much we can read into his facial expressions over the past few years.

[JustHereForFood]

I have been thinking about Noel Clarke and John Barrowman these past days and have noticed a sort of weird parallel regarding issues that their cases show. 

On one hand, there seems to be a lot of pressure on young actors (mostly women, but I'm sure there are cases with men as well) to take off their clothes, either during auditions or during shooting intimate scenes. This is often against their will and is IMO completely unnecessary. Unfortunately, due to power imbalance, they often end up doing it to avoid being blacklisted, which can result in a traumatic experience for them. Examples were mentioned in the article about Noel and in the tweets above.

On the other hand, there are some actors who will happily show their bits when nobody is asking them to, as a "joke", with no regards to a potential discomfort of other people present. I can't think of any example of a woman doing this, all examples mentioned so far here or anywhere that I've heard were men.

I'm not going anywhere with this, it just seemed a bit fascinating to me that there are two different problems in the industry that are both being discussed now and both have something to do with nudity and questionable consent. I don't mean fascinating in a good way, more like: Some psychologists should have a field day with this.

[Mabinogia]

There is the interesting dynamic where a woman naked is seen as sexy, an invitation, hot, basically, all about sex, while a man getting naked is funny, boyishly impish, "cute", it's all about having a sense of humour.

Even outside of the BTS stuff, within a show/movie, a woman naked is almost always played up sexy while a guy naked quite often is meant as a joke. Just another way in which the world is telling us that women's bodies primary purpose is to be sexy and turn people on. There are exceptions to this, as with all things, but I rarely ever see a woman pull out a tit for a joke unless the joke is the erection it caused in the guy who saw it. 

What is happening in Hollywood is symptomatic of a much bigger, deeper issue. I am just glad a light is finally being shined on it. 

I also wonder, in this case specifically, how much Barrowman's behaviour and the acceptance those in power showed of it informed Clarke's behaviour, in a "well, if he can get away with rubbing his dick on people, I should be able to do things too" way. 

[Zella]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

Even outside of the BTS stuff, within a show/movie, a woman naked is almost always played up sexy while a guy naked quite often is meant as a joke. Just another way in which the world is telling us that women's bodies primary purpose is to be sexy and turn people on. 

Yes I've seen a lot of discussion about this that even in HBO shows that feature tons and tons of nudity from women that is clearly meant to be titillating, the corresponding instances of male nudity are far and few between, and when it does occur, it is almost always meant to be funny or even gross but almost never sexy. Thinking specifically about Game of Thrones, but I could name numerous other shows it applies to as well.