S02.E05: Gore on Canvas

[Trini]

Batwoman is approached by Commander Kane and Agent Moore to boost an infamous work of art that reveals the way to Coryana - and Kate. Despite her reservations, Luke and Mary convince Ryan to take the assignment, causing tensions within the Bat-team to escalate.

Meanwhile, as Alice attempts to fulfill Safiyah's (guest star Shivaani Ghai) insidious request, she slowly discovers that she may not remember everything about her time on Coryana.

Norma Bailey directed the episode written by Daniel Thomsen.

Airdate: 2/21/2021

 

[scarynikki12]

Wolf Spider is fun. More please.

Ocean is still hot. Better get on that soon Alice cause Safiyah may succeed in killing him.

No surprise the infection isn’t getting better. It’ll probably be Kryptonian antibiotics or something to heal that sucker.

I like that Ryan’s instincts were right because any alliance with the Crows needs to happen later and they need to be worthy of her. 

[Primal Slayer]

Starting the episode...please let us this be the last episode where they have to remind us how great of a person and how much bad luck Ryan has. "You went to jail for 14 months because of me" 5 episodes straight...it is just enough. 

[Proteus]

Oh great. Another episode about finding Kate Kane who is never coming back.

Seriously, either move on from Kate or end the show.

I wonder how much longer Sophie will last. She's the most pointless character on the show with the Kate obsession.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Finished the episode and it was ok. For once I wasnt actively that into Alice's plot, the amnesia plot just wasnt that interesting to me.

Wolf Spider was fun and I hope we get to see more of him, though the car bit was shot rather badly.

Sophie should have an interesting enough storyline with trying to reform the Crows but they dont seem to really want to focus on that outside of Ryan. But I just really want The Crows gone and get back to GCPD. 

[driver18]

I really enjoyed this episode. I love how all the pieces are coming together.

[Lantern7]

I was distracting myself, so I'll probably have to re-watch it soon. All I really remember was the main plot centered on an art show held by reality alternative types, and Ryan had to steal something Joker smeared because it was . . . . actually a map to Safiyah's place where Kate might be? And Alice and Ocean made time and chemistry with each other, and they might have had a thing that was undone by Safiyah erasing their memories? Oh, and the putz art thief with the ten-star Parkour skills and the inability to dodge a cop car was Kate's friend from high school.

Like I said, I was distracted. Did I get the gist of the plot at least?

ETA: Oh, and Ryan's art show outfit was big on zippers. She borrowed it from Mary, and I can see her wanting fancy clothing that had lots of storage space.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Lantern7

[UnoAgain]

I like where the show is... And I'm down for more wolf spider... The team could use a criminal frenemy.. Angelique is trouble... Looking fwd to Ocean/Alice's backstory... I couldn't tell how old safiyah was supposed to be so I thought he'd be her son... I figured family from last week.. And when he said his family did stuff where he comes from.. I was sure... 

 

And damn.. It really should be AACAB... Almost all crows are bastards... 

[Diapason Untuned]

Between the multipurpose use of ACAB and Ryan's great dig at the Crows, one would almost think the naming was made for this kind of thing. Be better at branding, Jacob!

But on a serious note, I love that the show is spending more time on how horrible the Crows are. At this point the only difference between the Crows and the cops are that the Crows are straightforward about making the wealthy their priority. The whole idea of a private security company running around like cops is horrible, since they have no incentive to be better than cops and cops can be pretty horrible to begin with!

I'm also loving how the show is building up Ryan's relationships with Team Batwoman. That scene with Luke was just amazing.

The CW has a spotty history with male love interests, but Ocean is good so far, especially since Alice has no real anchor in the plot without Kate to bounce off of. Mouse must be gnashing his teeth in the underworld watching this go down though. 🤣

 

[AnimeMania]

One good punch and Alice is out for hours, what's Ocean got that Batwoman doesn't have.

[Primal Slayer]

11 minutes ago, AnimeMania said:

One good punch and Alice is out for hours, what's Ocean got that Batwoman doesn't have.

Besides likely being stronger and having more force behind his punch because he's male? Or of course plot convenience. 

[possibilities]

The Crows are just vigilantes, not unlike Batwoman. They do it for money, and she does it for free. They don't use due process, they don't get warrants, they just torture and intimidate people and grab them without anything even vaguely resembling Miranda or access to counsel. 

[cambridgeguy]

7 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Wolf Spider was fun and I hope we get to see more of him, though the car bit was shot rather badly.

Wolf Spider also needs to work on how to escape.  Running straight down a runway while being chased by a car isn't exactly a foolproof plan.

[UnoAgain]

2 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Wolf Spider also needs to work on how to escape.  Running straight down a runway while being chased by a car isn't exactly a foolproof plan.

Now I want wolf spider flipping his way into fight scenes that have nothing to do with him... And constantly interrupting the crows... Also why wolf spider?  Anyone know 

[Chicago Redshirt]

11 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Starting the episode...please let us this be the last episode where they have to remind us how great of a person and how much bad luck Ryan has. "You went to jail for 14 months because of me" 5 episodes straight...it is just enough. 

At least this wasn't a newly invented trauma.

9 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

One good punch and Alice is out for hours, what's Ocean got that Batwoman doesn't have.

Maybe Alice is a lightweight in terms of drinking. She did have like five shots before the punch. Or it could be related to the zappy memory flashy thing that is going on too. 

[Pepper the Cat]

I don’t understand why the Batwoman team isn’t reaching out to Kara and her team about Ryan’s kryptonite injury. These clearly don’t know what they are dealing with.

 

[cambridgeguy]

44 minutes ago, Pepper the Cat said:

I don’t understand why the Batwoman team isn’t reaching out to Kara and her team about Ryan’s kryptonite injury. These clearly don’t know what they are dealing with.

That's the standard lament for all of these series.  Kate Kane is missing?  That's public news, so why isn't her buddy Kara Danvers helping with the search?  There's no map to Corayana, one of the Arrowverse's mysterious islands?  Felicity can hack into anything so ask her or the STAR labs team for help searching all available records.

[tennisgurl]

I am glad that we are really digging into the Crows and how messed up the whole situation with them is. I can see how they seemed appealing at first, as Gotham PD is famously corrupt and unable to deal with supervillains even when they try to, but they are basically just a mercenary squad at this point paid for by Gotham's rich and powerful. So does Gotham PD even exist anymore? You don't see much of them at all, you would think they would clash more with the Crows, or maybe Gotham PD is just happy they don't have to do any work anymore. "Yeah, have fun getting gassed with fear toxin every twenty minutes you private contractor assholes, we're getting donuts." Although Ryan giving Jacob shit for beating up the assassin seems kind of rich considering she was leaving the guy to starve as means of interrogation, both of those are questionable at least.  

So basically the Crows, Ryan, and Wolf Spider were all running around trying to get the same painting, but because none of them want to work with each other it all becomes a big mess and it was a fake anyway. Smooth move guys. I did like them tying Alice and Ocean into the main plot with the picture, even if its really just another faction trying to find the same painting for the same reason yet again. The show is in a rather tough place with Kate, they built so much of the show around her and her family and history that now they probably feel like they have to keep her presence around, even now that she is no longer on the show, but that makes it harder for the show to really move on and commit to Ryan as Batwoman. Teasing a return for Kate for so long makes it sometimes feel like Ryan really is a placeholder even when we know thats not the case, and it makes all of the "we have to find Kate!" plots seem rather sad and pointless. I get that they don't want to kill her off offscreen, but I hope that we get an answer to the mystery that can allow the show and the characters to move on soon. 

So did Safiyah wipe Ocean and Alice's memories of their relationship because she was pissed at Alice for hooking up with her brother? 

Wolf Spider was fun, the team could use a frienemy criminal to sometimes team up with or against, like Catwoman without the sexual tension. 

Nice scene between Luke and Ryan, for once Ryan doesn't have the saddest backstory in a conversation. I am glad that we are at least taking a break from giving Ryan any more trauma's, although her relationship with her ex continues to bring drama. She really does have amazingly terrible luck though, and hopefully this is a lesson in checking in with her doctor roommate about serious injuries, especially ones that are actively festering. Is she going to end up with superpowers now? That would be kind of rare for a member of the Batfamily, but it could be interesting. 

Edited February 22, 2021 by tennisgurl

[MissLucas]

Another vote for keeping Wolf Spider around. Batwoman needs an ambiguous ally and Luke needs to arrive in the 21th century so that he can utter the word 'tampon' without the need of smelling salts.

Ocean and Alice are fun together but I can't remember when Safiyah ordered the hit on him? Did that happen off-screen?

I thought we've seen the green gunky veins on Ryan before? I'm just glad she finally showed the wound to Mary, keeping it a secret was idiotic. Next desperately needed move in common sense - return no-longer-ex to ex status.

[thuganomics85]

Figured Wolf Spider was going to be Evan since he was the only guest character besides Ocean or Angelique to have any significance here, but it was still a fun reveal, and I hope he pops back up from time to time.  I'm sure there will be times where an elaborate, gymnastic thief could come in handy!  Although, he probably could follow Mary's advice about getting a stronger suit going forward.  Hope we get more interactions between those two, because their history seems fun!

The Crows continue to do everything possible to make themselves look like bigger dicks than some of the actual villains.  Between them and the always fallible GCPD, it's hard not to blame the citizens of Gotham for being so jaded.  Or even finally snapping and just going crazy!

Looks like Alice and Ocean might have been lovers during her time on the island, but Safiyah wiped their memories somehow?  Also, she considers Ocean a brother?  I wonder what's all going on there.

Seriously, Luke, how hard is it to say tampons?  Or even just feminine hygiene products?  If Alice ever finds out, she probably can just start throwing tampons at you and cause a meltdown.

Angelique is so going to end up being bad news, right?

How much longer is Ryan going to let this kryptonite wound fester?

[sugarbaker design]

15 hours ago, possibilities said:

The Crows are just vigilantes, not unlike Batwoman. They do it for money, and she does it for free. They don't use due process, they don't get warrants, they just torture and intimidate people and grab them without anything even vaguely resembling Miranda or access to counsel. 

Thank you!!!  I figured video of twenty of the crows shooting Batwoman at close range would've stimulated some protests, but nope, not in Gotham, the police state.  When they apprehended Alice they brought her to Arkham, no hearing, no representation.  Jacob and his daughter Beth have a lot in common, they kill at will, and are used to getting their way.  

[AnimeMania]

46 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

How much longer is Ryan going to let this kryptonite wound fester?

Ryan had Mary look at it and Mary put a Band-Aid on it and told her to get back out there. After seeing that the wound now looks like Mt. Vesuvius, I have lost all confidence in Mary's medical skills.

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

That's the standard lament for all of these series.  Kate Kane is missing?  That's public news, so why isn't her buddy Kara Danvers helping with the search?  There's no map to Corayana, one of the Arrowverse's mysterious islands?  Felicity can hack into anything so ask her or the STAR labs team for help searching all available records.

This is slightly different IMO from the standard "Why not rally the Justice League/Avengers/etc." when there is a big emergency. 

The incident involves a rare element in Kryptonite that Team Batwoman has little to no experience in. But obviously Team Supergirl/Superman does. While you do have to handwave the notion that Barry under normal conditions could find Alice/Ocean/the Napier painting/whatever in about a minute, there's no reason to think that Batwoman and Co. can't find it at their own pace.

There's plenty of reason to think that a not-yet-doctor and a computer nerd couldn't use a boost in figuring out the affects of Kryptonite on the human body.

I kind of hope that Ryan turns into a K-freak ala Smallville.

[appositival]

11 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Wolf Spider also needs to work on how to escape.  Running straight down a runway while being chased by a car isn't exactly a foolproof plan.

I was impressed with how long he stayed in front of them, but I agree, invest in a bicycle at least!

So everyone was shooting at Wolf Spider, but running him down with a car is somehow worse? Were they worried that he wouldn't look good at the funeral?

[akg]

Quote

I don’t understand why the Batwoman team isn’t reaching out to Kara and her team about Ryan’s kryptonite injury. These clearly don’t know what they are dealing with.

I agree about many complaints about the lack of Arrowverse characters showing up to help but I can explain this one to myself. I don't think the Kryptonite was showing when Mary looked at the wound (I refuse to believe Mary wouldn't have said something) and Ryan has no reason to connect the green in her shoulder to anything in particular. Mary and Luke wouldn't have told her about Supergirl's weakness or even her friendship with Kate (if they even know. I don't remember who was involved in what during the crossovers last season).

Oh, what did Vesper say about Wolf Spider at the beginning? I was only half paying attention and it seemed like a lot of exposition. 

Edited February 23, 2021 by akg
add a question

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, appositival said:

So everyone was shooting at Wolf Spider, but running him down with a car is somehow worse? Were they worried that he wouldn't look good at the funeral?

To be fair, the people who were shooting at WS were all bad guys, who don't have to abide by fair play or the law.

The Crows, who are supposed to represent law and order, should not shoot or use deadly force unless it is warranted. WS running away and posing a threat to no one is not such a case.

24 minutes ago, akg said:

 I don't think the Kryptonite was showing when Mary looked at the wound (I refuse to believe Mary wouldn't have said something) and Ryan has no reason to connect the green in her shoulder to anything in particular. Mary and Luke wouldn't have told her about Supergirl's weakness or even her friendship with Kate (if they even know. I don't remember who was involved in what during the crossovers last season).

Mary knows, or should know, that the wound comes from when Ryan was shot by Tommy with a Kryptonite bullet. A big enough deal was made of Kryptonite being the one thing that could penetrate the suit. In this episode Mary re-affirms that Kate was never shot with anything that penetrated the suit, so it's not like she thinks the wound was from some random other situation.

[Trini]

So this Coryana is some place! An entire island kingdom that is somehow invisible; they've got flowers that cure cancer, their own league guild of assassins, and the means to erase specific memories! Makes about as much sense as Gotham, I guess.

Alice & Ocean... it's interesting. I think the only other DC show where the villain got a smoking hot love interest was Tobias on Black Lightning. I'm going to enjoy the eye candy, but this relationship is pretty much doomed, right? Look at literally all of Alice's other relationships.

ACAB referring to the Crows -- convenient! The Crows were always sketchy, but now they're making them another villain/antagonist the show, and there's already so many. I know they're making a statement about police brutality/etc. ... but they're not police. At least officially. (Poor GCPD doesn't even factor here!)

I wasn't thinking of Evan/Wolf Spider as a recurring frenemy, but now that y'all mention it, that could work.

Angelique does seem like she might be trouble down the line, but I hope she doesn't get killed or something; Ryan has enough tragedy.

Glad we got a bonding moment with Luke and Ryan. Even though things aren't smooth yet, I'm still enjoying the team dynamics with Ryan/Luke/Mary. It makes sense that everything isn't perfect this soon.

[legaleagle53]

On 2/22/2021 at 2:09 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Figured Wolf Spider was going to be Evan since he was the only guest character besides Ocean or Angelique to have any significance here, but it was still a fun reveal, and I hope he pops back up from time to time.  I'm sure there will be times where an elaborate, gymnastic thief could come in handy!  Although, he probably could follow Mary's advice about getting a stronger suit going forward.  Hope we get more interactions between those two, because their history seems fun!

It's also about damn time that the Arrowverse gave us an openly gay MALE superhero/antihero, even if his alter ego is a walking gay stereotype.  No offense to the numerous lesbians who populate this and other Arrowverse shows, but MY part of the LGBT community needs representation, too!

[Trini]

24 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

It's also about damn time that the Arrowverse gave us an openly gay MALE superhero/antihero, even if his alter ego is a walking gay stereotype.  No offense to the numerous lesbians who populate this and other Arrowverse shows, but MY part of the LGBT community needs representation, too!

I assume you mean a series regular? Because there's Citizen Cold, The Ray, and Pied Piper off the top of my head. (Constantine?)

[legaleagle53]

4 hours ago, Trini said:

I assume you mean a series regular? Because there's Citizen Cold, The Ray, and Pied Piper off the top of my head. (Constantine?)

You assume correctly. Citizen Cold, The Ray, and Pied Piper aren't regular characters, and Constantine doesn't count because he's not gay (which I specifically singled out as lacking representation, since I'M gay, not bisexual), he's bisexual (and Legends of Tomorrow has been downplaying that aspect of his sexuality for some time now especially since it's been established that he and Zari 2.0 have a thing for each other although neither is quite ready to admit it yet).

[quarks]

Curtis/Mr. Terrific on Arrow was definitely gay, and a series regular, but I can quite understand why people are trying to repress that memory. (And he was such a great character his first season. Alas, not so much in later seasons.) But back to Batwoman:

1. Ryan, when a doctor or semi-doctor asks you about other symptoms, "Sometimes the wound seems to look green," is, indeed, a symptom. Mention it.

2. Mary, I love you, but I don't think much of your medical skills if you still think this is a regular bullet wound, and if you weren't able to notice that, you know, GREEN THINGS WERE IN IT, though kudos for fixing up Gay Art Antihero later.

3. Though speaking of that - I quite understand why Ryan would have wanted to avoid all of the awkward questions that would invariably come up if she'd taken him directly to the hospital and not, say, to Mary, but given that the guy apparently comes from a wealthy family, I am kinda at a loss to explain why Mary let him stay in her low-cost semi-secret clinic. I assume the guy had health insurance and enough money to bribe doctors to stay quiet. And the desire to have those bones properly set by a trained surgeon.

That said, I've been living in fear for several episodes now that these characters are all going to end up in that single hospital room shared by Arrow/Flash, so, perhaps it's safer for Evan to stay in Mary's clinic.

4. Back to the wound - I assume we were meant to assume that Ryan and Angelique had fully made up, to the point of removing a lot of clothing, so....why did it take Angelique so long to notice Ryan's wound? Is this a sentient sort of wound that goes out of its way to make supporting characters not immediately notice it, or notice that something is really off with it?

5. Given that the Arrowverse pretty much started out as a Nolan Batman ripoff, I'm mildly surprised by how much this show keeps associating its Jack Napier/Joker with the Tim Burton Joker. Though, given that Crisis on Infinite Earths confirmed that the Tim Burton Batman is part of the multiverse that Spectre Oliver more or less merged together, but made no such claim about the Nolan Batman, maybe this is the show's way of reminding us that it shares a world with Tim Burton but Christopher Nolan is beyond their reach?

6. Run, Alice's new love interest. RUN! You are too too hot for this relationship!

7. Last week, someone suggested that I start up a "And now, Sophie...." section, which I originally took as a hint to shut up about the sets already, which, ok, fair, until I watched this episode. 

This is a character in trouble. That's been evident before, but rarely as much as in tonight's episode. Not only did she fail as a cop/Crow multiple times, but she was also the only main character other than Jacob not to get a single cool/competent/wow or even helpful moment in the entire episode, something even the three new supporting characters all got. Worse, she was given lines/plot points that should have gone to other characters and were instead given to her in order to give her a reason to be in these scenes. This was most notable during the entire art show - Jacob, not Sophie, should have been on the phone there, and Mary, not Sophie, should have been the one asking Ryan if she was ok.

Going into this season, I figured that Batwoman was going to have issues with keeping Mary, Alice and Sophie - three characters with direct personal relationships with Kate - relevant.  So far, the show has more or less worked around this for two of them by keeping Mary as the medical character and comic relief, and having her be roommates with Ryan, and by dropping Alice into the middle of a ridiculously over the top Evil Island plot which more or less works since Alice is a ridiculously over the top character.  Granted, some of this - like the roommate situation - seems forced, and I'm not 100% sold on the Evil Island plot (though Hot Ocean guy is certainly drawing me in) - but it's at least marginally working.

Everything with Sophie, less so. 

[possibilities]

There's no reason they'd HAVE TO write Sophie as being useless. She could plausibly be as hellbent as Alice is on finding Kate, she could be written to be super-competent, super-passionate, and basically on fire to find her. But for whatever reason, the writers have decided she's sad, helpless, mopey, and can't even keep Alice from grabbing her gun without being noticed.

[Chicago Redshirt]

9 hours ago, quarks said:

7. Last week, someone suggested that I start up a "And now, Sophie...." section, which I originally took as a hint to shut up about the sets already, which, ok, fair, until I watched this episode. 

It was me!

And no, it had nothing to do with the recycling of sets, which is something I'm way too blind to and find interesting.

It was purely that I see Sophie as an even weaker character than Laurel. 

Seems to me that the obvious way to have dealt with the departure of Ruby Rose in universe was to have Sophie find out that Kate was Batwoman and take up the mantle to solve her disappearance or avenge her. But TPTB either did not have faith in the character or the Sophie actress to follow that line.

I will say in fairness to Sophie, her helpful moment was off-screen. She (presumably) caught the bad Crows and had them fired. So maybe there was a scene explicitly showing that which was cut for time, or they figured we just didn't need to see this.

The notion that she could be the Batwoman equivalent of Lt. Jim Gordon in early Bat-days -- inside the system but an actual ally to fight internal corruption could work. But then you have the question of why Jake Kane allows it.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Chicago Redshirt

[Featherhat]

They had trouble with Sophie when she was supposed to be Kate's OTP with huge melodrama (well they had some trouble because of that as well) ala Laurel, so it was always going to be difficult without Kate unless they completely revamped. Mary still had a unique place as the lighter character and the doctor. Alice still has the wild card psycho factor and they're working hard to fit her into the Saffiyah plot as well as her "bonds" with Mary and Jacob. 

But for Sophie as of right now she's basically stayed the same and is still on the outside of everything, even though she has found out about Kate after the fact and has a connection with Ryan. 

[possibilities]

8 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Seems to me that the obvious way to have dealt with the departure of Ruby Rose in universe was to have Sophie find out that Kate was Batwoman and take up the mantle

I love this idea. I really think they should have done this.

[quarks]

40 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I will say in fairness to Sophie, her helpful moment was off-screen. She (presumably) caught the bad Crows and had them fired. So maybe there was a scene explicitly showing that which was cut for time, or they figured we just didn't need to see this.

Thing is, the show immediately called out that helpful moment as at best inadequate. The Crows driver deliberately tried to run a suspect over with a car - essentially assault, possibly attempted vehicular homicide, and his only punishment? Losing his job. Sure, it's a safe bet that he'd be found not guilty in court if someone did try to prosecute him in court - but he would at the very least have to stand trial and probably pay for an attorney.  

Worse, it's the identical punishment that the other Crow, who didn't try to run anyone over and at least protested, however weakly, got.

So it's not really much of a saving grace for Sophie.

46 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It was purely that I see Sophie as an even weaker character than Laurel. 

The one saving grace that Sophie has is that she isn't getting written with quite as many misogynistic tropes as Laurel was in seasons 1-3. So she has that going for her. She's also not written to be quite as harsh and bitter as Laurel frequently was.

Against that, even after Original Laurel lost the main love interest role and was massively sidelined, she still had various roles on the show, with even that aggravating alcohol/drugs subplot at least playing a thematic role. Apart from directly contributing to the Sad Torture Porn That Is Ryan's Previous Life, Sophie, not so much. Not that I particularly want her to go down the alcohol/drugs route, mind you, especially since if she does, she'll run into the exact same problem that Laurel had back on Arrow - namely that pretty much everyone else on this show except, I guess, Evan, is dealing with considerably worse trauma than Sophie is, which makes it hard to feel sympathetic for her.

But pretty much everything that she's doing on the show could be done by another one of the main characters or by a day player speaking a couple of lines. (Original Laurel frequently had the same problem.) For instance, this episode tried to use her as a connection between Ryan and the Crows. But there's another, much more obvious connection there: Mary and the Crows. Mary is, after all, Jacob's stepdaughter and Ryan's roommate/Bat teammate. Thus the awkwardness of several lines in this episode: it would absolutely have made sense for Mary to head to Jacob and beg him to work with Batwoman to help track down Kate - and for Mary to point out to Ryan that Jacob is her stepfather, so, yes, she knows him. Instead we got Sophie trying to convince Jacob to trust a woman Sophie doesn't know, and on the other side, Sophie trying to defend Jacob to someone she doesn't know. 

Awkward. 

And robbed of emotional impact.

And there's the close but not exactly similar legal situation. Arrow usually represented its cops and district attorneys as inept or dysfunctional or - particularly with the DAs - missing and dead (I stopped keeping track, but being a DA in Star City was the hands down most dangerous job in the Arrowverse for some time, presumably why the DAs kept going on lengthy vacations.) But Original Laurel herself was usually shown as at least trying to help people in her legal aid clinic and later as a prosecutor. She was abysmal at it, one thing that made the character so frustrating, but she was trying - and Original Laurel never joined an outright evil organization. Just an inept and corrupt one. Not-Laurel, of course, did - and then, to her credit, left said organization after a year or so.  Both Original Laurel and Not-Laurel worked in well and even brightly lit law offices.

In contrast, Sophie joined a paramilitary security organization that always but always operates in the dark and in low lighting - lower than the lighting used by many of the outright evil organizations in the Arrowverse.

It's not exactly subtle. 

And she has stayed in this organization for years, and continues to do so even after people have called her on it.

This could still work if we saw a competent Sophie. But - shades of Original Laurel again - we usually don't. In this last episode alone, she screwed up an interrogation - and failed to recognize that the person she was interrogating was another costumed vigilante; failed to check another potential witness for a cyanide pill; provided less practical help to Ryan than Mary, Luke and Angelique; failed to stop the Crows from running over Evan; failed to stop Batwoman from removing Evan - a pretty key witness - from the crime scene; and was in the end outdone as an investigator by Alice. 

It's not boding well.

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 hours ago, quarks said:

Thing is, the show immediately called out that helpful moment as at best inadequate. The Crows driver deliberately tried to run a suspect over with a car - essentially assault, possibly attempted vehicular homicide, and his only punishment? Losing his job. Sure, it's a safe bet that he'd be found not guilty in court if someone did try to prosecute him in court - but he would at the very least have to stand trial and probably pay for an attorney.  

Worse, it's the identical punishment that the other Crow, who didn't try to run anyone over and at least protested, however weakly, got.

I don't remember the particulars of the Crows behind Lucius's murder, but I am assuming that they evaded detection and had nothing happen to them. Under Jacob's command, the Crows literally tried murdering Batwoman at least once. I will take any level of accountability as a baby step forward. 

I think firing the non-driver sends a message that if you fail to report misconduct or are in any way complicit in it, you are equally guilty. Driver would not think he could get away with running down an unarmed person who posed no threat if he didn't think the other Crow would have his back.

[quarks]

14 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't remember the particulars of the Crows behind Lucius's murder, but I am assuming that they evaded detection and had nothing happen to them. Under Jacob's command, the Crows literally tried murdering Batwoman at least once. I will take any level of accountability as a baby step forward. 

I think firing the non-driver sends a message that if you fail to report misconduct or are in any way complicit in it, you are equally guilty. Driver would not think he could get away with running down an unarmed person who posed no threat if he didn't think the other Crow would have his back.

Firing the non-driver was the appropriate punishment for him. The issue was more what happened - or didn't happen - to the driver, who for all intents and purposes got away with vehicular assault. Sure, it's a level of accountability, but not enough - something that Ryan pointed out pretty much immediately. 

But, yeah - the Crows tried to murder Batwoman, the supposed love of Sophie's life, and as far as we know, Sophie has done zilch to any of the Crows involved in that incident. If she's trying to reform the Crows from the inside, she's not doing a great job of it either from a "make the Crows really good at their jobs" or "make the Crows less brutal/murdery/quasi-evil" perspective.

[legaleagle53]

On 2/25/2021 at 12:07 AM, quarks said:

Curtis/Mr. Terrific on Arrow was definitely gay, and a series regular, but I can quite understand why people are trying to repress that memory. (And he was such a great character his first season. Alas, not so much in later seasons.)

Ugh, you're right. I had completely forgotten about Curtis, but as you said, it was for a good reason. By the time I really got into Arrow, Curtis had become one of the most annoying characters I'd ever seen. I still cringe whenever I think of his bitter, jealous, drunken rant at Oliver and Felicity's wedding reception. But back to Batwoman,,, ,

[Stardancer Supreme]

On 2/22/2021 at 2:25 PM, MissLucas said:

Another vote for keeping Wolf Spider around. Batwoman needs an ambiguous ally and Luke needs to arrive in the 21th century so that he can utter the word 'tampon' without the need of smelling salts.

Yes! I'm sure Luke is old enough not to think that girls have cooties. He should be able to say "Feminine Hygiene Products".

I'm all in for Wolf Spider! I just wonder how he managed to dodge all the other things thrown at him just to get clipped by the truck?

[John Potts]

So we're in Batman (89) continuity with Jack Napier as The Joker? Though, if so, he died in his first encounter with Batman, so not entirely.

Pretty ho-hum episode, really. Surprised Alice didn't reveal she'd already got out of her cuffs/bonds and was just faking, because that seems like exactly the sort of thing she would do.

On 2/22/2021 at 2:05 AM, scarynikki12 said:

No surprise the infection isn’t getting better.

Not sure what Ryan is trying to prove there. If you're going to a Doctor for help, tell them the facts. It's not as if she doesn't know it was on Bat-duty (though I'm sure she normally doesn't ask how her patients got their wounds).

On 2/22/2021 at 4:09 AM, Diapason Untuned said:

I love that the show is spending more time on how horrible the Crows are. At this point the only difference between the Crows and the cops are that the Crows are straightforward about making the wealthy their priority. The whole idea of a private security company running around like cops is horrible, since they have no incentive to be better than cops and cops can be pretty horrible to begin with!

What I don't understand is why they keep employing them. They're apparently as corrupt and ineffectual as the GCPD are so why are the wealthy still paying for them (aside from "Well, we've already bought the sets!")? It's not like in (say) Veronica Mars where the cops corruption was mainly about ignoring the crimes committed by the rich. But here the Crows are as ineffectual at protecting the rich (which is what they've been hired to do!) as the GCPD ever were.

On 2/22/2021 at 3:22 AM, Proteus said:

I wonder how much longer Sophie will last. She's the most pointless character on the show

She felt somewhat extraeneous when she was Kate's ex. Now she seems completely superfluous.