S07.E10: Treehouse of Cards Part 2

[Toodleoo]

If the show needs a woman with ambition and a great figure, please bring back Chelsea. She was only 20% the asshole that Madison is.

[Boo Boo]

On 1/21/2021 at 10:54 PM, nexxie said:

Wow, Kathryn in that reunion preview!

Here’s her new look - and quite a story...

https://www.the-sun.com/entertainment/1996023/southern-charm-kathryn-dennis-blond-hair-custody-ex/

Spoiler

It's sad b/c I have always thought their boy has FAS but didn't want to post that.  If this is true, it is awful. 

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by Boo Boo

[Boo Boo]

On 1/22/2021 at 9:46 PM, Legalbeagle421 said:

Lol.

I don’t disagree that Michelle would come from a more compassionate place because that appears to be the person she is. However, she herself, has been compared to a monkey on numerous occasions, so I don’t think she’d be easy on Kathryn. That is a horrible/demeaning thing to do. I still think Leva’s message made sense but her execution and delivery were awful. But as I said yesterday, these people were either Kathryn’s friends or they aren’t. No need to keep harping on the same thing with someone who doesn’t get it and possibly doesn’t want to. 

However, Venita (the Black woman who appeared as a friend of scary Madison) made an important point. It is not the responsibility of Black people (or any other targeted race/group) to educate ignorant people. If people want to be better (and be a part of a more equitable, accepting society), they have to do the work and research for themselves to learn the history behind why certain things are offensive. 
 

But I’ll step off my soapbox. I’m getting too deep for this crap show 😂

I agree.

Kathryn doesn't deserve to be handled with kid gloves.  I do not for one minute believe she's felt any sorrow for what she has done and she doesn't want to listen or learn.  The only thing she's upset about is that it came to light and she has to answer fo rit.

For the life of me, I do not understand why Danni wants to have a friendship with her at all.  What is there to like about Kathryn Dennis?  She's not a person who has changed, grown, evolved at all since the show began.  The only time she was even likable was when Thomas dated that hospice nurse playing the reality TV villain.  During that season, there seemed to be a worse person than Kathryn (other than Thomas)!  

So why exactly does Danni even give two fucks about this relationship?  If I had a friend sending racist (and yes, they were -- Venita was right about the "minority" comment along with the monkey emoji) messages, I would not want my name ever associated with her again.  So I can't get on the Danni love train here b/c she shouldn't be trying to salvage a goddamned thing.  (And maybe I'm just skeptical, but I would be willing to be the only reason that she has anything to do with Kathyrn is b/c she knows that , even after racist messages, Kathyrn is well-loved by Bravo and being friends with her helps secure her place on Southern Charm.)

Edited January 24, 2021 by Boo Boo

[Legalbeagle421]

19 minutes ago, Boo Boo said:

I agree.

Kathryn doesn't deserve to be handled with kid gloves.  I do not for one minute believe she's felt any sorrow for what she has done and she doesn't want to listen or learn.  The only thing she's upset about is that it came to light and she has to answer fo rit.

For the life of me, I do not understand why Danni wants to have a friendship with her at all.  What is there to like about Kathryn Dennis?  She's not a person who has changed, grown, evolved at all since the show began.  The only time she was even likable was when Thomas dated that hospice nurse playing the reality TV villain.  During that season, there seemed to be a worse person than Kathryn (other than Thomas)!  

So why exactly does Danni even give two fucks about this relationship?  If I had a friend sending racist (and yes, they were -- Venita was right about the "minority" comment along with the monkey emoji) messages, I would not want my name ever associated with her again.  So I can't get on the Danni love train here b/c she shouldn't be trying to salvage a goddamned thing.  (And maybe I'm just skeptical, but I would be willing to be the only reason that she has anything to do with Kathyrn is b/c she knows that , even after racist messages, Kathyrn is well-loved by Bravo and being friends with her helps secure her place on Southern Charm.)

Agreed. I think the overarching issue has gotten lost because the approach by Leva and co. for addressing it went terribly wrong. The issue should be that Kathryn did/said horrible, racist things. I understand people say that they watch this show for entertainment, but the monkey emoji and other comments were real things that Kathryn did. There was no way that we could have a whole season without addressing this any more than we could go without addressing her time in a rehab facility or her custody battle or crazy Ashley. I don't give credit to Kathryn for not losing it on the other women because we would not have had to watch this at all if she had not acted the way that she did.

I still maintain that I do not agree with how the others chose to approach her (beyond agreeing with them that Kathryn was wrong and agreeing with Venita as I mentioned above). But Leva's being annoying does not outweigh the fact that Kathryn did do something racist. I just think the other players have to realize they are either her friends or they're not and if they don't want to be her friend because she can't/won't change, move on. I know I don't associate with the ignorant, so I would understand completely if they chose not to lol. 

Edited January 24, 2021 by Legalbeagle421
Spelling matters lol

[b2H]

On 1/22/2021 at 11:30 AM, heatherchandler said:

Kathryn is not sorry, she does not care, and that's kind of it - there is nowhere to do with that.

We have all been in situations at one time or another when we have aggrieved someone and nothing, NOTHING, we can say or do will be enough for the aggrieved party.  This, to me, is why Katherine has ‘done nothing’ with respect to her accountability.  If I recall correctly, K has already made her amends with the person she sent the emoji to, though the apology (according to this article) has yet not been accepted.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-8309691/Kathryn-Dennis-apologizes-sending-offensive-comments-including-monkey-emoji-radio-host.html

Point here is this: the other women had NOTHING to do with this incident.  Unless they were personal friends of the targeted individual (and there is no evidence to say any of them are), they have no place in the discussion.  Instead of demanding vague moves on K’s part and attacking her relentlessly, if they couldn’t stay out of it entirely (which would have been the right move), they need to sit individually with her, quietly and calmly, and explain exactly what each of them expected her to do and then DROP IT.  No more.  End of story.  But nothing, nothing would make these women happy.  Even the guys had had enough of this discussion.

It was a bad story line that showed no signs of ending and certainly didn’t advance the racism angle it was trying to demonstrate.  Yes, racism is a problem, but this did nothing to address or resolve the issue.

@wallies @Boo Boo

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by b2H

[Boo Boo]

42 minutes ago, b2H said:

We have all been in situations at one time or another when we have aggrieved someone and nothing, NOTHING, we can say or do will be enough for the aggrieved party.  This, to me, is why Katherine has ‘done nothing’ with respect to her accountability.  If I recall correctly, K has already made her amends with the person she sent the emoji to, though the apology (according to this article) has yet not been accepted.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-8309691/Kathryn-Dennis-apologizes-sending-offensive-comments-including-monkey-emoji-radio-host.html

Point here is this: the other women had NOTHING to do with this incident.  Unless they were personal friends of the targeted individual (and there is no evidence to say any of them are), they have no place in the discussion.  Instead of demanding vague moves on K’s part and attacking her relentlessly, if they couldn’t stay out of it entirely (which would have been the right move), they need to sit individually with her, quietly and calmly, and explain exactly what each of them expected her to do and then DROP IT.  No more.  End of story.  But nothing, nothing would make these women happy.  Even the guys had had enough of this discussion.

It was a bad story line that showed no signs of ending and certainly didn’t advance the racism angle it was trying to demonstrate.  Yes, racism is a problem, but this did nothing to address or resolve the issue.

@wallies @Boo Boo

 

They may have had NOTHING to do with the incident, but there's nothing wrong with them confronting her about this.  Frankly, I'd question why anyone would want to be friends, friendly, or just even around her but they don't choose cast mates.   And I can't imagine if the cast had pretended this never happened and gleefully hung around her as though she never sent a monkey emoji to the person of color she harassed in email messages.  It's a bad story line because Kathryn did just couldn't stop herself from being herself.  The rest of the cast has to deal with the collateral damage of this.  I don't see how else it could've gone down on this show without it being a storyline other than they fire Kathryn.

  

Edited January 24, 2021 by Boo Boo

[snarts]

You can be on the right side of argument yet still act like an asshole.  Leva & Venita choosing to confront Kathryn at social events and, when she doesn't engage, shame her friends/co-workers for not joining in & shunning her is acting like an asshole.  People can vehemently disagree with Kathryn's actions and still think that Leva & Venita behaved inappropriately.

Since they're both new to show, people are going to question motives.  I still don't understand why Leva didn't take the opportunity to address Kathryn 1:1 when she reached out to her for advice. Instead, she waited and decided to bring it up in front of the entire group at multiple parties, To me, that rings of wanting a dramatic storyline to guarantee screentime and not someone who was genuinely affected. 

[LakeGal]

Lakeguy was watching with me and asked what happened to the pretty one named Madison.  I pointed her out and he was quite surprised.  He said he thought she had become quite ugly since he last saw her.  Madison is not helping herself with that nasty attitude.  It really does sour her looks.

[nexxie]

13 hours ago, snarts said:

You can be on the right side of argument yet still act like an asshole.  Leva & Venita choosing to confront Kathryn at social events and, when she doesn't engage, shame her friends/co-workers for not joining in & shunning her is acting like an asshole.  People can vehemently disagree with Kathryn's actions and still think that Leva & Venita behaved inappropriately.

Since they're both new to show, people are going to question motives.  I still don't understand why Leva didn't take the opportunity to address Kathryn 1:1 when she reached out to her for advice. Instead, she waited and decided to bring it up in front of the entire group at multiple parties, To me, that rings of wanting a dramatic storyline to guarantee screentime and not someone who was genuinely affected. 

To me it looks like Bravo hired Leva specifically to confront Kathryn - and hired one black cast member for effect. imo Leva and Venita are doing what producers want them to do.

[snarts]

1 hour ago, nexxie said:

To me it looks like Bravo hired Leva specifically to confront Kathryn - and hired one black cast member for effect. imo Leva and Venita are doing what producers want them to do.

If we're going to blame production for their actions, why stop there?  Maybe producers asked Kathryn to act like a racist asshole on social media so they could create this entire storyline.

IMHO, it defeats the purpose of watching & commenting on these shows if producer manipulation is always given as explanation for behavior. No one forced Leva & Venita to act like they did.  It might have been suggested, but they ran with it, all in the name of fame. 

In the immortal words of Heather B (Real World NY) "they use what you gave them"

Edited January 25, 2021 by snarts

[TruffleHog]

My take on the prolonged conflict between Leva, Venita, Madison #2 and Kathryn is that Kathryn refused to admit that she had racist intent. An apology without full acknowledgment of what one did is weak and self-serving.   K only apologized for 'sloppy communication' and then denied being a racist.  During the exchange with Mika Gadsden, Kathryn blew at least three racist dog whistles:  1. she accused her of using her 'minority claim' 2.  she asked "do you even know who your father is?" and finally 3. the monkey emoji.  A single dog whistle might qualify as an accident conceived from ignorance or poor word choice, but threeee. Come on Kathryn, you are from the South, you know what that shit means, and you knowingly said it to hurt a black woman.  

[Thisgirllovespasta]

I don't know if this was said before. Pringle reminds me of Eddie Munster. 

[slowpoked]

I just caught up to both finale episodes last night and can I say that Madison (Lecroy, since there's another Madison in there) has got to be the thirstiest, shittiest and ugliest character I've seen so far on SC (didn't watch the early seasons so I don't know how horrible Thomas was). But holy moly, that woman is a shit-stirrer to the highest degree! And like Austen said, she just can't help it that she needs to be the center of attention for EVERYTHING!!!

Austen is free to fuck whoever he wants to because he and Madison have broken up already. It has nothing to do with him being a beta male or beta bitch to Madison's self-proclaimed alpha. The only reason to get upset with Austen about this situation if IF she was STILL fucking Austen on the side. Which I would have thought to be a big revelation during that time, but I guess not.

And what does she have to do with the rift of Kathryn and the other women??? As far as I know, she knows nothing about it, and wasn't one of the direct parties involved (like Dani, the other Madison and Leva was). So what was she charging Dani at the dock for and calling her an ass-kisser when Dani and Kathryn were trying to work things out on their own, like adults do?! My god, my blood pressure went up watching those last few scenes towards the end, wanting to hurl Madison to Earth 2 or somewhere in space.

I mean, clearly, alcohol was a factor in those last scenes. These people have been drinking all day and most of their judgment are impaired by that time. But Madison is an adult with an 8-year old kid - she's no longer some high school kid or college sorority chick. If you can't control your alcohol, then you better stop drinking. 

Leva may be a bully (I don't think she is, but certainly assertive), but deep inside she has good intentions of eventually making peace with everyone, but Madison is just a shit-stirrer who's not happy if she's not involved with any major drama (inserting herself in the KCav-Jay Cutler drama will probably guarantee her a spot next season). I hate to say and I really hate agreeing with Shep, but he's right - she's white trash.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by slowpoked

[Boo Boo]

6 hours ago, TruffleHog said:

My take on the prolonged conflict between Leva, Venita, Madison #2 and Kathryn is that Kathryn refused to admit that she had racist intent. An apology without full acknowledgment of what one did is weak and self-serving.   K only apologized for 'sloppy communication' and then denied being a racist.  During the exchange with Mika Gadsden, Kathryn blew at least three racist dog whistles:  1. she accused her of using her 'minority claim' 2.  she asked "do you even know who your father is?" and finally 3. the monkey emoji.  A single dog whistle might qualify as an accident conceived from ignorance or poor word choice, but threeee. Come on Kathryn, you are from the South, you know what that shit means, and you knowingly said it to hurt a black woman.  

Exactly.  

I'm kind of surprised that Leva, Venita, et. al. are being considered the bad guys here.  I'm also surprised that Kathryn still has a job with Bravo.  

[albarino]

2 hours ago, Boo Boo said:

I'm kind of surprised that Leva, Venita, et. al. are being considered the bad guys here. 

I'm only speaking for me but I think the women and the storyline are being shoved in our faces.  I don't like it.

Kathryn has always been Kathryn.  She isn't deep, sympathetic, charming or likable.  She slept with three guys the first season to be on the show and then got knocked up twice.  She is a user and has been to rehab.  Her son has FAS (and I said that a long time ago).  She doesn't have the introspection to reflect on her ancestry or her recent actions.  She is just....there.  She is not capable of anything more than a shrug of her shoulders and wondering what she did wrong.  Has anybody actually liked her?

Along with a few of other Bravo shows, this one has run its course.  Time to end it.

[Duke2801]

I feel like I may have watched a different episode—or perhaps a whole season—than many others. I didn’t see Leva as an obnoxious, overbearing mean girl bully. I saw her as somebody who was chosen by SC producers to address some very serious, timely issues.

Kathryn said some very demeaning, inflammatory and (potentially) racist things to a woman of color. And her trying to file it under “well golly, I’m  just dumb and clueless” might have worked 10 or even 5 years ago, it doesn’t really fly in today’s climate. 

I think making Leva out to be the “bad guy” in this whole scenario really diminishes the hurtful things that Kathryn said.
 

Not to mention  the rumors that Kathryn was spreading about Jason’s—one of her best friend’s husband’s— supposed Infidelity! 
 

On 1/16/2021 at 11:12 PM, Hockey Addict said:

Yes. I am so sick of Leva. Yes, Kathryn's emoji/post was insensitive, poor taste, etc but Leva is not the morality police. Her husband and her son were not the target of said post and the woman that was got an apology. She can shut her mouth. And if you want to talk about privilege, Leva seems to have quite a lot of it while most people are struggling to pay rent and food now. You spoke your mind Leva, now quit making Kathryn your entire story line. Worry about your business.

Is it not possible for her to worry about her business *and* address racism? Does it have to be one or the other? And does somebody need to do something directly TO you in order to speak out? 

On 1/21/2021 at 10:15 PM, Kiss my mutt said:

The only reason Patricia “likes” Madison is because she doesn’t like Kathryn. 

While I don’t know the state of their current relationship, Kathryn and Madison were friends (or at least friendly). So I don’t think that’s the reason. Pat for one reason or another just thinks she’s “all that.” Which, as we all know by now, she is most definitely NOT. 

On 1/22/2021 at 11:37 AM, aghst said:

Basically they could have written off Kathryn as a racist, choose not to have anything to do with her.

But for the purposes of the show, they had to confront her and film as many confrontations as possible.

Leva probably wasn't close or that friendly with Kathryn.  In normal life the thing to do would be to avoid her, see her for what she is.

But on the show, she has to make Kathryn "accountable" which means having these confrontations, making her show contrition.

Maybe Bravo needed that to keep Kathryn on the show or maybe they don't GAF, as long as she can continue to bring the drama.

They got Thomas off the show because there was too much controversy.  But then managed to get him a cameo this season.

 

Exactly. These people aren’t acting the way most of us would act in everyday life. They are cast members and coworkers who are forced to interact with one another. I’m fairly confident that Leva knew she was cast, in part, to confront Kathryn about the emoji (but really, much worse than just the emoji) issue. But Kathryn kept trying to run away, deflect, etc. Hence why it seemed like she was “chasing her down.” When, in reality, she was just doing what was expected of her: 

On 1/22/2021 at 5:51 PM, SuprSuprElevated said:

I thought it odd that she was drinking from a Moscow Mule mug.  Has she acknowledged that she's drinking?  (I never really believed she quit to be honest).  For the sake of custody hearings and Thomas' nonsense, she should at least consider the impression she's giving with her choice of drinkware.  Oh wait, it's Kathryn.  Never mind.

Yes!  Totally.

Yes they addressed her drinking in the first episode of the season. She said alcohol was never her vice or problematic for her so she’s chosen to imbibe again, publicly. But as you say, I have doubts as to whether she ever really stopped drinking period, off camera. 

On 1/23/2021 at 7:14 PM, Hockey Addict said:

Ok. On well Leva claimed not to know about Kathryn's anxiety but on her old Twitter under her maiden name she was tweeting about watching the show in 2014. The beginning. It's under Leva Noorwuzyani (spelling is maybe off).

Leva wasn’t just watching the show in 2014–she was on the show from the beginning. If you rewatch either the first or second episode in season 1, she accompanies Cam to Thomas’s plantation for the polo match/party. And she’s appeared in episodes periodically over the years. 
 

That said, it doesn’t mean she was privy to the intimate details of Kathryn’s mental health or the meds she takes for those.  

On 1/24/2021 at 11:30 AM, Toodleoo said:

If the show needs a woman with ambition and a great figure, please bring back Chelsea. She was only 20% the asshole that Madison is.

I love Chelt-sea and don’t think she’s an asshole at all. Unfortunately she walked off the show, along with Naomi, in solidarity with Cam when they wanted to make those cheating allegations (about Cam’s husband) a central storyline, pre-pandemic. She’s currently traveling the world with her World Cup boyfriend so it’s doubtful she’d ever return to the show 

[heatherchandler]

On 1/25/2021 at 6:49 AM, nexxie said:

To me it looks like Bravo hired Leva specifically to confront Kathryn - and hired one black cast member for effect. imo Leva and Venita are doing what producers want them to do.

If I was hired to berate groups of people, and also browbeat an asshole mentally ill alcoholic on tv I would be like, not thanks.  Leva WANTED to do this, to signal her virtue.

 

22 hours ago, TruffleHog said:

My take on the prolonged conflict between Leva, Venita, Madison #2 and Kathryn is that Kathryn refused to admit that she had racist intent. An apology without full acknowledgment of what one did is weak and self-serving.   K only apologized for 'sloppy communication' and then denied being a racist.  During the exchange with Mika Gadsden, Kathryn blew at least three racist dog whistles:  1. she accused her of using her 'minority claim' 2.  she asked "do you even know who your father is?" and finally 3. the monkey emoji.  A single dog whistle might qualify as an accident conceived from ignorance or poor word choice, but threeee. Come on Kathryn, you are from the South, you know what that shit means, and you knowingly said it to hurt a black woman.  

But does it matter?  She is not sorry, she does not care. 

What do people want from her?  Accountability?  She takes no accountability.  Ok, moving on...  They have let her know it is hurtful, she doesn't GAF.

 

7 hours ago, Duke2801 said:

I feel like I may have watched a different episode—or perhaps a whole season—than many others. I didn’t see Leva as an obnoxious, overbearing mean girl bully. I saw her as somebody who was chosen by SC producers to address some very serious, timely issues.

Kathryn said some very demeaning, inflammatory and (potentially) racist things to a woman of color. And her trying to file it under “well golly, I’m  just dumb and clueless” might have worked 10 or even 5 years ago, it doesn’t really fly in today’s climate. 

 

Is it not possible for her to worry about her business *and* address racism? Does it have to be one or the other? And does somebody need to do something directly TO you in order to speak out? 

 

Well it works for me because I already hate Kathryn, and I want nothing from her.  I am not looking to reality show people for guidance on ANY issues that matter.  

I think it is ok to be upset about the state of the world AND her business.  I don't think Leva knows that.  

 

[Duke2801]

1 hour ago, heatherchandler said:

If I was hired to berate groups of people, and also browbeat an asshole mentally ill alcoholic on tv I would be like, not thanks.  Leva WANTED to do this, to signal her virtue.

 

But does it matter?  She is not sorry, she does not care. 

What do people want from her?  Accountability?  She takes no accountability.  Ok, moving on...  They have let her know it is hurtful, she doesn't GAF.

 

Well it works for me because I already hate Kathryn, and I want nothing from her.  I am not looking to reality show people for guidance on ANY issues that matter.  

I think it is ok to be upset about the state of the world AND her business.  I don't think Leva knows that.  

 

Why do you think she didn’t know that? Just because her scenes focused mostly on the Kathryn issue doesn’t mean that the REAL Leva—not Leva the TV character—isn’t concerned with all of these issues, and more.
 

I would bet good money that Leva IRL  was far more concerned about her own business and her own family than she was about whether Kathryn got “educated” or not. That part of her life just wasn’t the narrative that the producers decided to showcase. 

[Legalbeagle421]

I don't understand why these people seem to not have an issue with (blonde) Madison. I understand why so many of the women have issues with Kathryn. But odd choice to still be friendly with Madison, who is vile in her own way. I'm pretty sure Venita was even with Madison during one of the recent videos initiating this Jay Cutler debacle. 

[slowpoked]

2 hours ago, Legalbeagle421 said:

I don't understand why these people seem to not have an issue with (blonde) Madison. I understand why so many of the women have issues with Kathryn. But odd choice to still be friendly with Madison, who is vile in her own way. I'm pretty sure Venita was even with Madison during one of the recent videos initiating this Jay Cutler debacle. 

Now I get why Shep (and Craig to a lesser degree) was so insistent even as early as last season that Austen cut his losses and break up with her. Back then, I thought Shep was just being a baby, or to some extent, jealous of Austen. He’s probably seen how toxic she can be, even without the cameras rolling yet.

She must have some magical pussy for Austen to cling to her for as long as two years. Because I really don’t see any redeeming quality in her - sure she’s pretty, but that eventually goes away with a toxic attitude. She’s nasty, has a vulgar mouth, and shits on everyone if it means she’s the center of attention. I wonder if there’s even a hint of embarrassment in her after seeing that finale. Probably not.

Edited January 26, 2021 by slowpoked

[heatherchandler]

2 hours ago, Duke2801 said:

Why do you think she didn’t know that? Just because her scenes focused mostly on the Kathryn issue doesn’t mean that the REAL Leva—not Leva the TV character—isn’t concerned with all of these issues, and more.
 

I would bet good money that Leva IRL  was far more concerned about her own business and her own family than she was about whether Kathryn got “educated” or not. That part of her life just wasn’t the narrative that the producers decided to showcase. 

I was referring to when Austen texted her saying "hope your business wasn't affected during the protests," or something like that and she was like, "windows can be replaced, but lives can’t."  And I think that it's not a zero sum game and you can care about both - people and your family business.

 

[MrsWitter]

10 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

I was referring to when Austen texted her saying "hope your business wasn't affected during the protests," or something like that and she was like, "windows can be replaced, but lives can’t."  And I think that it's not a zero sum game and you can care about both - people and your family business.

 

I don’t know how that response to Austen somehow indicates that she doesn’t care about both. By Austen’s own admission, he didn’t just offer up concerns about her business, he offered a critique of the protests (“Sucks that a peaceful protest turned into such like a senseless act of violence.”). Leva’s response doesn’t indicate she doesn’t care about both, but it certainly indicates that she prioritized one issue over the other. 
 

I know people are seemingly exhausted by virtue signaling, but I don’t understand why we always assume that people speaking out (even repeatedly, even if it’s in a way people don’t like, even on a reality show) are disingenuous or merely performative. It’s been repeated multiple times that Leva doesn’t seem to be able to balance her work and her concern for the world/other people/her family/social justice issues. If she really is unable to concern herself with work, wouldn’t that signal that her concern is real and not simply a performance? And if it’s somehow all just an attempt to virtue signal on national television, then wouldn’t that somewhat imply the opposite (that she is more concerned with her public image and, by extension, her businesses)? Logically, I don’t really understand how Leva is both a posing virtue signaler and also someone who only cares about social justice issues at the expense of her businesses.

 

Leva’s way of confronting Kathryn seemed a bit ham-fisted at times, but that doesn’t mean it’s not genuine. Speaking out isn’t always about “signaling,” sometimes it’s really just about actual virtue and standing up because you believe it’s the right thing to do. As I’ve said before, I think the one most concerned with her “signaling” was Kathryn. In every conversation, her goal seemed to be to prove or show she’s not racist instead of actually taking the time to consider her actions and what she can do to be better going forward.  If Kathryn is capable of thinking “racism is bad. I need to not look like a racist,” she’s capable of trying to actually understand and genuinely apologize. That said, while she’s capable, I think it became clear throughout the season that she isn’t willing, at this point, to do it. And that lack of willingness to reflect and her eagerness to rehab her image is actually why I wish Leva, Gwynn’s Madison, and Venita had eventually stopped looking for an apology. I understand why they tried, but It wasn’t worth their emotional labor to continue when Kathryn was so resistant to anything except making herself feel better about her actions.

ETA: Didn’t include the previous post that mentioned virtue signaling. I don’t know how to add another quote box. Even though there’s been multiple references to virtue signaling, this is the line from a previous post I was referencing: 

“If I was hired to berate groups of people, and also browbeat an asshole mentally ill alcoholic on tv I would be like, not thanks.  Leva WANTED to do this, to signal her virtue.”

Edited January 27, 2021 by MrsWitter

[MrsWitter]

On 1/25/2021 at 9:32 PM, albarino said:

She doesn't have the introspection to reflect on her ancestry or her recent actions.  She is just....there.  She is not capable of anything more than a shrug of her shoulders and wondering what she did wrong.  Has anybody actually liked her?

Capable and willing are two very different things. Both might land you in the same place ultimately, but just because someone isn’t willing, doesn’t mean they’re not able.

[heatherchandler]

8 hours ago, MrsWitter said:

I don’t know how that response to Austen somehow indicates that she doesn’t care about both. By Austen’s own admission, he didn’t just offer up concerns about her business, he offered a critique of the protests (“Sucks that a peaceful protest turned into such like a senseless act of violence.”). Leva’s response doesn’t indicate she doesn’t care about both, but it certainly indicates that she prioritized one issue over the other. 
 

I know people are seemingly exhausted by virtue signaling, but I don’t understand why we always assume that people speaking out (even repeatedly, even if it’s in a way people don’t like, even on a reality show) are disingenuous or merely performative. It’s been repeated multiple times that Leva doesn’t seem to be able to balance her work and her concern for the world/other people/her family/social justice issues. If she really is unable to concern herself with work, wouldn’t that signal that her concern is real and not simply a performance? And if it’s somehow all just an attempt to virtue signal on national television, then wouldn’t that somewhat imply the opposite (that she is more concerned with her public image and, by extension, her businesses)? Logically, I don’t really understand how Leva is both a posing virtue signaler and also someone who only cares about social justice issues at the expense of her businesses.

 

Leva’s way of confronting Kathryn seemed a bit ham-fisted at times, but that doesn’t mean it’s not genuine. Speaking out isn’t always about “signaling,” sometimes it’s really just about actual virtue and standing up because you believe it’s the right thing to do. As I’ve said before, I think the one most concerned with her “signaling” was Kathryn. In every conversation, her goal seemed to be to prove or show she’s not racist instead of actually taking the time to consider her actions and what she can do to be better going forward.  If Kathryn is capable of thinking “racism is bad. I need to not look like a racist,” she’s capable of trying to actually understand and genuinely apologize. That said, while she’s capable, I think it became clear throughout the season that she isn’t willing, at this point, to do it. And that lack of willingness to reflect and her eagerness to rehab her image is actually why I wish Leva, Gwynn’s Madison, and Venita had eventually stopped looking for an apology. I understand why they tried, but It wasn’t worth their emotional labor to continue when Kathryn was so resistant to anything except making herself feel better about her actions.

ETA: Didn’t include the previous post that mentioned virtue signaling. I don’t know how to add another quote box. Even though there’s been multiple references to virtue signaling, this is the line from a previous post I was referencing: 

“If I was hired to berate groups of people, and also browbeat an asshole mentally ill alcoholic on tv I would be like, not thanks.  Leva WANTED to do this, to signal her virtue.”

This is just me, but I think that if someone texted me and expressed hope that my business was ok, I would acknowledge their kindness, and the fact that they care about my livelihood... AND that there are people who deserve justice.  Rather than make a person feel BAD about caring.  She is basically saying to him - you care about the wrong thing.  Without thinking to herself, maybe he cares about both. 

She has this need to let everyone know that SHE cares about the RIGHT stuff.  I think she does actually care.  But she needs to let the world (on a reality tv show no less) know that she is one of the good ones.  

I agree with you that Leva, Madison and Venita should have stopped trying to get an apology from someone who doesn't care at all.  Try once, realize that she's not sorry, then move on.  No reason to keep bringing up this apology, which would have been forced and fake. 

And what even is an apology - it is the person who has done something hurtful realizing that and doing the only thing they can do to try to make it better.  I can't understand why people go after an apology.  If the person was sorry, they would say so.  If you have to force someone to apologize, they do not mean it, it is meaningless.

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by heatherchandler

[Boo Boo]

On 1/26/2021 at 11:37 AM, heatherchandler said:

If I was hired to berate groups of people, and also browbeat an asshole mentally ill alcoholic on tv I would be like, not thanks.  Leva WANTED to do this, to signal her virtue.

 

I really do not understand how someone married to a black man and mother to a biracial child could be  considered a "virtue signaler" simply because she called out Kathryn on her racist messages.  Maybe not the intent since you have "asshole" qualifier in front of "mentally ill alcoholic" but mentally ill alcoholic seems like a way to excuse Kathryn for her harassment of a black woman -- as if she couldn't help herself from her actions. It just reminded me of a thought I had earlier that if it weren't  for her custody issues, I'm sure Kathyrn would've used the "I was drunk" excuse.

 

 

[Boo Boo]

3 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

This is just me, but I think that if someone texted me and expressed hope that my business was ok, I would acknowledge their kindness, and the fact that they care about my livelihood... AND that there are people who deserve justice.  Rather than make a person feel BAD about caring.  She is basically saying to him - you care about the wrong thing.  Without thinking to herself, maybe he cares about both. 

Again, she's married to a black man and has a biracial son.  It's perfectly okay for her to express the way she felt -- windows can be replaced, lives cannot.  

I certainly would not have felt bad if my friend/workmate came back with that response.  I would not have thought she was making me feel like I cared about the wrong thing.  

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by Boo Boo

[MrsWitter]

4 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

This is just me, but I think that if someone texted me and expressed hope that my business was ok, I would acknowledge their kindness, and the fact that they care about my livelihood... AND that there are people who deserve justice.  Rather than make a person feel BAD about caring.  She is basically saying to him - you care about the wrong thing.  Without thinking to herself, maybe he cares about both. 

She has this need to let everyone know that SHE cares about the RIGHT stuff.  I think she does actually care.  But she needs to let the world (on a reality tv show no less) know that she is one of the good ones.  

 

As @Boo Boo said, I see nothing in her response that would make me feel bad. Just because Austen apparently felt bad doesn’t mean Leva MADE him feel bad. That’s Austen’s fragility and it shouldn’t be Leva’s concern. Also, again, Austen made a disparaging remark about the protests and the “senseless violence” in his initial text. Why did Austen have to include that? If he was really just trying to express concern about her businesses, he didn’t need to include those kind of asides. And now Austen is going all over and talking to press about how he can’t say the right thing, people are mean to him, etc. The only reason we’re even hearing so much about this text conversation is because Austen keeps whining about it. Austen is not a victim here and, as a privileged white man, he’d do better to listen and learn than complain about how he can’t get anything right. This isn’t about you and your feelings, Austen. 
 

Another take on Leva- if she does actually care (and, again, I believe she does), speaking out when she has a platform to do so isn’t all about letting people know she’s “one of the good ones,” it can also just be that she has a fairly rare opportunity to discuss and confront racism in a very public way and she decided to do so because she believes strongly in being an ally. If she really is an ally to the BLM movement (and again, I believe she legitimately is and it’s not just performative), then she has an obligation to speak up and use this platform. 
 

As a society we do it all the time, but we need to stop coddling white people when they’re confronted about racism. The racist thoughts and behaviors are the problem. Expecting people of color to tiptoe around racism and present it in the most pleasant and palatable way is absurd and tiresome. 

[christmaslights]

trying to make Kathryn see the right side of this is like lecturing a clam.  

madison reminds me of the girls that would chase my daughter around in 3rd grade calling her horrible names because I wouldn't buy her the sequined shirts and low-cut jeans when she was 8. 

shep is killing it by not saying a thing, even though deep down I think he is the worst of them all.

 

 

[heatherchandler]

2 hours ago, Boo Boo said:

I really do not understand how someone married to a black man and mother to a biracial child could be  considered a "virtue signaler" simply because she called out Kathryn on her racist messages.  Maybe not the intent since you have "asshole" qualifier in front of "mentally ill alcoholic" but mentally ill alcoholic seems like a way to excuse Kathryn for her harassment of a black woman -- as if she couldn't help herself from her actions. It just reminded me of a thought I had earlier that if it weren't  for her custody issues, I'm sure Kathyrn would've used the "I was drunk" excuse.

 

 

Virtue signaling is sharing a view on social media or another platform in order to garner praise or acknowledgement of one's righteousness from those who share the view and to rebuke those who do not.  That is pretty much exactly what she is doing.  I don't think one must be faking concern in order for the performance to be virtue signaling.

Kathryn wouldn't claim she's drunk because she doesn't think she did anything wrong.  Also, she is an asshole.  You can be mentally ill, and an alcoholic and an asshole all rolled together.  At some point you have to let it go - you can't change how people behave.  You can only change how you react to their behavior.  

 

 

 

[heatherchandler]

1 hour ago, MrsWitter said:

As @Boo Boo said, I see nothing in her response that would make me feel bad. Just because Austen apparently felt bad doesn’t mean Leva MADE him feel bad. That’s Austen’s fragility and it shouldn’t be Leva’s concern. Also, again, Austen made a disparaging remark about the protests and the “senseless violence” in his initial text. Why did Austen have to include that? If he was really just trying to express concern about her businesses, he didn’t need to include those kind of asides. And now Austen is going all over and talking to press about how he can’t say the right thing, people are mean to him, etc. The only reason we’re even hearing so much about this text conversation is because Austen keeps whining about it. Austen is not a victim here and, as a privileged white man, he’d do better to listen and learn than complain about how he can’t get anything right. This isn’t about you and your feelings, Austen. 
 

Another take on Leva- if she does actually care (and, again, I believe she does), speaking out when she has a platform to do so isn’t all about letting people know she’s “one of the good ones,” it can also just be that she has a fairly rare opportunity to discuss and confront racism in a very public way and she decided to do so because she believes strongly in being an ally. If she really is an ally to the BLM movement (and again, I believe she legitimately is and it’s not just performative), then she has an obligation to speak up and use this platform. 
 

As a society we do it all the time, but we need to stop coddling white people when they’re confronted about racism. The racist thoughts and behaviors are the problem. Expecting people of color to tiptoe around racism and present it in the most pleasant and palatable way is absurd and tiresome. 

I don't think it is fragility, it is genuine confusion.  She needs to admonish him when he reaches out to be nice?  Ok.  

No need to tiptoe around racism, but you will never get what you want from Kathryn.  So it has turned into the public shaming show.  It is not entertaining.  

Sure, confront whomever you want about whatever you want.  There are many many problems in the world right now.  I would like to see the people who experiment on live animals confronted and taken down.  Do I want to watch a show about it when I turn on a crappy reality show?  No I do not. 

Are people actually entertained by this show, this season?  I have only read negative reviews of the season, so I am thinking I am not the only one who feels this way.

 

[Boo Boo]

42 minutes ago, heatherchandler said:

Virtue signaling is sharing a view on social media or another platform in order to garner praise or acknowledgement of one's righteousness from those who share the view and to rebuke those who do not.  That is pretty much exactly what she is doing.  I don't think one must be faking concern in order for the performance to be virtue signaling.

Kathryn wouldn't claim she's drunk because she doesn't think she did anything wrong.  Also, she is an asshole.  You can be mentally ill, and an alcoholic and an asshole all rolled together.  At some point you have to let it go - you can't change how people behave.  You can only change how you react to their behavior.  

 

 

 

Virtue signaling has such a negative connotation like "woke" that I don't like using that for a woman who is not white, married to a black man with a biracial black son; she's got a front seat to racism and it personally affects her.  

I don't think Kathryn truly believes she did nothing wrong, she just isn't going to admit she did.  If she admitted she did something wrong, then she's essentially having to own up to racist intent.   As to "letting it go" I don't think we'll ever see that on a Bravo reality show!

(BTW, love your handle!)  

Edited January 27, 2021 by Boo Boo

[heatherchandler]

45 minutes ago, Boo Boo said:

Virtue signaling has such a negative connotation like "woke" that I don't like using that for a woman who is not white, married to a black man with a biracial black son; she's got a front seat to racism and it personally affects her.  

I don't think Kathryn truly believes she did nothing wrong, she just isn't going to admit she did.  If she admitted she did something wrong, then she's essentially having to own up to racist intent.   As to "letting it go" I don't think we'll ever see that on a Bravo reality show!

(BTW, love your handle!)  

I agree, it does have a negative connotation.  And you're right, Leva does have a front seat to racism.  I guess I am just bothered by her holding herself up as some kind of moral authority.  It is off-putting to me.

That is true, Bravo has turned into the network of never letting anything go!  

(Thank you!  I'm worshipped at Westerburg and I'm only a junior) 

[Boo Boo]

47 minutes ago, heatherchandler said:

I agree, it does have a negative connotation.  And you're right, Leva does have a front seat to racism.  I guess I am just bothered by her holding herself up as some kind of moral authority.  It is off-putting to me.

That is true, Bravo has turned into the network of never letting anything go!  

(Thank you!  I'm worshipped at Westerburg and I'm only a junior) 

I love it!  I'm still so bummed that the actress Kim Walker who played Heather Chandler died at such a young age!

 

[aghst]

On 1/25/2021 at 4:49 AM, nexxie said:

To me it looks like Bravo hired Leva specifically to confront Kathryn - and hired one black cast member for effect. imo Leva and Venita are doing what producers want them to do.

Not only that, Kathryn could just walk away, say "I don't need to answer to you."

But obviously they're setting up these sit-down scenes because the producers want them to shoot them.

And it's not like they sit down and words come out exactly the way they want them.  They probably need to do more than one take many times, so they're repeating their talking points.

Kathryn could just say "fuck off" and ignore them.

Nor would Leva be so persistent about it IRL.  It would be much easier for her to conclude that Kathryn is just a racist POS not worth her time.

Bravo obviously didn't want them to just drop it.

[RedDelicious]

Yeah I tried that whole producer driven argument with Dorinda vs. Tinsley and we all know how that worked out 😆

[Duke2801]

6 hours ago, RedDelicious said:

Yeah I tried that whole producer driven argument with Dorinda vs. Tinsley and we all know how that worked out 😆

Not the same situations at all.  

[RedDelicious]

1 hour ago, Duke2801 said:

Not the same situations at all.  

Sure it is. Regardless of whether it is warranted and who is right/wrong, there is one person who is consistently the aggressor and one person on the receiving end, and they build an entire season around it. It’s the Bravo formula.  

[Duke2801]

On 1/28/2021 at 8:36 AM, RedDelicious said:

Sure it is. Regardless of whether it is warranted and who is right/wrong, there is one person who is consistently the aggressor and one person on the receiving end, and they build an entire season around it. It’s the Bravo formula.  

No some of us were saying that Leva may have been hired specifically to address the “monkey emoji” situation with Kathryn.  
 

Dorinda was not specifically hired to go after Tinsley. Dorinda *legitimately* hated Tinsley and Tinsley told us why at the last reunion. 
 

 

[eleanorofaquitaine]

On 1/27/2021 at 4:32 PM, heatherchandler said:

Virtue signaling is sharing a view on social media or another platform in order to garner praise or acknowledgement of one's righteousness from those who share the view and to rebuke those who do not.  That is pretty much exactly what she is doing.  I don't think one must be faking concern in order for the performance to be virtue signaling.

Kathryn wouldn't claim she's drunk because she doesn't think she did anything wrong.  Also, she is an asshole.  You can be mentally ill, and an alcoholic and an asshole all rolled together.  At some point you have to let it go - you can't change how people behave.  You can only change how you react to their behavior.  

 

 

 

Leva is married to a Black man and is mother to a biracial child. I'd hazard a guess that using the platform she has to speak out on issues that matter to her - and especially impact her husband and child - is more important to her than just "garner praise" from others. Hell, it's possible that even if her husband wasn't Black or her child biracial that she could use her platform because she truly believes those things, and isn't "virtue signaling." I am not sure how you can proclaim so decidedly her motives for speaking out on racial injustice and that they are rooted in "garnering praise" as opposed to her believing she has a moral obligation to speak out against injustice. 

I do agree with you that it is clear that speaking to Kathryn on the issues is like speaking to a brick wall and there's probably little point in demanding accountability from her. I don't agree that said fact somehow mitigates Leva's obligation to speak out. Leva feels strongly about these issues and feels obliged to speak out against them and Kathryn's block-headedness doesn't erase that. 

[Sweet-tea]

On 1/24/2021 at 1:49 PM, Boo Boo said:

  Reveal spoiler

It's sad b/c I have always thought their boy has FAS but didn't want to post that.  If this is true, it is awful. 

 

The biggest change is how much weight she has lost. She is skinny now!

I like her better as a redhead. 

[chlban]

I watched the marathon leading up to this, so not many surprises. Kathryn is, and clearly always will be, a complete train wreck. The boys and Danni continue to coddle her, I don't know why. While I am glad for Craig's success, because I just can't hate him, he was quite a troublemaker in previous seasons, dolling out relationship  and other,  advice like a guy that had his life under control. I am pretty meh on him and Naomie. Yeah, she was bitchy and critical, but if you have never been involved with a lazy, Peter Pan type, you cannot know how annoying and frustrating it is. Been there, done that, decades ago, but I still remember. Those guys are often charming and handsome. It's not enough. Shep is a Peter Pan, but he has the family money to pull it off. Some women won't mind as long as the money is there. Shep can also be charming when he isn't being a spoiled child. Austen is a loser. Period, end of statement. Madison is a horrible human being, but she was smart to get away from  Austen. I don't much care for Pringle, but can't really put my finger on why. Maybe I will figure it out this season or maybe I will change my mind, who knows?  We will see how the season goes, but I am glad it's back. The show will never be as good as it was the first 2 seasons when it was my favorite BRAVO show, but I am in, at least for now. I could never get into RHOM or RHOA, so this, and Beverly Hills, are the only shows I watch on BRAVO these days.