The Vow

[Proclone]

58 minutes ago, blixie said:

I think despite his protestations Keith liked being compared Scientology, uses the same lingo (centers) and wanted that same kind of clientele, actors:  they had a lot of money and honestly not much formal education, and are highly susceptible to this kind of stuff. The only big difference is he tried to explode their dependence on fame when the clams really play that aspect up. Fame and success is huge part of their model at least when marketing to actors/celebrities. While here we see Allison talking about how fame is a sickness. I guess that's one good thing about Scientology I don't think it explicitly was designed for sex slavery where as for Keith it was probably the main long term goal. 

It seems to me ESP is Scientology with the serial numbers and maybe the slightly more bat-shit beliefs (like Xenu) filed off.  The use of the terms centers and tech. The idea that it's all scientifically based.  It sounds like EMs are basically auditing without the tin cans. The insistence that they are the only group of people who can change the world, especially without explaining how.  The frequent use (and misuse) of the word ethics or ethical.  The beliefs that they can cure various diseases with their "tech".  The structure and the costs...  It all adds up to something very very similar to Scientology.  I mean the jargon thing is part and parcel of cults in general.  The controlling of how you speak is one part of indoctrination, but everything else seems to be wholesale stolen from Scientology specifically.  I wouldn't be surprised if Keith was involved in Scientology at some point in his life.  I'm guessing he at least studied it from the outside and instead of most people's reaction of, "This is horrible," he said, "Hmm...Can I add sexual slavery to it?"  So the supposed smartest man in the world is not only a sexual predator, he's a plagiarist.

[LeGrandElephant]

I've seen lots of comments, here and elsewhere, about how everyone in this cult was white. Well, it sounds like Raniere saved the worst treatment for undocumented (but from an affluent educated family) Mexican teenagers: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/michaelblackmon/nxivm-cult-woman-locked-room-keith-raniere-daniela

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/02/us/nxivm-room-testimony/index.html

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/nxivm-keith-raniere-daniela-trial-testimony-842104/

I wonder if the HBO documentary will address that. It sounds like the woman testifying in the above articles is staying anonymous, so presumably won't want to be interviewed by HBO. This documentary seems to be (understandably) focusing on the perspective of the people who are willing to provide tons of recordings and interviews, but it also seems to me like it wouldn't be a fair picture of the cult and Raniere and Lauren Salzman to not mention the above testimony. 

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by LeGrandElephant

[Catfi9ht]

Behind the Bastards podcast has three episodes devoted to NXIVM and Keith Raniere. The first two episodes were recorded shortly after the scandal broke but before the trials. The third episode summarizes the trial and aftermath of the charges against Raniere and Mack. Warning: if you're unfamiliar with this podcast, it can be very explicit in graphic details and language.

Part 1: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/part-one-the-child-molester-whose-29483421/

Part 2: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/part-two-the-child-molester-whose-29494273/

Epilogue: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/keith-raniere-the-end-of-a-49170938/

I agree with the posters above that the episodes are not clear on what is actual footage and what is a re-enactment. I also had to research why the cult has so many recorded sessions dating back over a decade. I wish they would have explained that information in episode 1 when they were summarizing the cult's behavior.

So far, I find Keith Raniere to be an uncompelling person with a word-salad-esque vocabulary of very watered down new-ageisms. The documentary hasn't captured what was compelling about the group or Raniere specifically IMO.

Finally as with the Tiger King and Wild, Wild Country "documentaries", I worry that this one is attempting to be too one-sided in the favor of the cult itself. One of the directors of the documentary completed a NXIVM course in 2017 shortly before the scandal broke. According to this LA Times article, this was their mission: the nine-part docuseries also offers a sympathetic portrait of the spiritual seekers who were duped by the alleged con man. And, as Amer and Noujaim say, that was a key part of their mission.

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/tv/story/2020-09-06/the-vow-nxivm-cult-directors

Sorry for the soap box, but it really bothers me when an opinion piece masquerades as factual.

[absnow54]

1 hour ago, Catfi9ht said:

Finally as with the Tiger King and Wild, Wild Country "documentaries", I worry that this one is attempting to be too one-sided in the favor of the cult itself. One of the directors of the documentary completed a NXIVM course in 2017 shortly before the scandal broke. According to this LA Times article, this was their mission: the nine-part docuseries also offers a sympathetic portrait of the spiritual seekers who were duped by the alleged con man. And, as Amer and Noujaim say, that was a key part of their mission.

I think the first episode was sympathetic towards the program, but I think that was to establish the bait and switch many of the members experienced when joining. The second two episodes were not at all kind to the organization. The filmmakers seem to be giving a sympathetic edit towards those who had been members, but have since defected and are looking to expose the negative aspects. 

[MicheleinPhilly]

Well that escalated quickly. 

We go from cheesy, self-help platitudes and cheap ass sashes signifying nothing to naked photos, master/slave relationships, and branding in the span of a single episode? This stuff is absolutely wild. 

And maybe it's because I'm from Philly and my BS detector is pretty finely calibrated but I actually find myself getting supremely frustrated with some of these folks. OK, you've found a group that makes you feel good about yourself and you're happy and feel like you're working towards some self-actualization or something...But as soon as they ask you for naked photos and start texting you a chain emoji you don't go screaming for the hills? WTF? 

Naturally I'm hooked. 

[luckyroll3]

38 minutes ago, MicheleinPhilly said:

And maybe it's because I'm from Philly and my BS detector is pretty finely calibrated but I actually find myself getting supremely frustrated with some of these folks. OK, you've found a group that makes you feel good about yourself and you're happy and feel like you're working towards some self-actualization or something...But as soon as they ask you for naked photos and start texting you a chain emoji you don't go screaming for the hills? WTF? 

This is exactly where I was at too! I don't care how good your organization makes me feel about myself.  You can't ask me to join a "club" focused on doing good and a chance to help change the world in one breath, and in the very next breath ask me for nude pictures and the deed to my house to solidify my membership. I would have been like

And even if I thought it was an inside joke between a close group of friends, the mandate to keep it a secret from EVERYONE would have gotten an eyebrow raise and the "let's get branded" thing would have been a hard fucking pass.  

It was also so insidious how everything in all of the initial workshops were basically leading people to question their base instincts and gut feelings.  Everything from the incorporation of the EMs and being at cause to "collateralizing your word"....all introduced in the early stages of training.  Nippy was right. Fear is a warning sign that people shouldn't always ignore. But the entire program was designed to have people push their fears down and see them as character flaws. So when this wild ass thing gets presented to you that your brain is saying, "girl, no!", you push forward despite those feelings. And when you're in the middle of it and your brain is screaming at you to the get the fuck out, it was all your decision because you put yourself there, so no one else is to blame.  Truly diabolical.

[sistermagpie]

22 minutes ago, luckyroll3 said:

It was also so insidious how everything in all of the initial workshops were basically leading people to question their base instincts and gut feelings.  Everything from the incorporation of the EMs and being at cause to "collateralizing your word"....all introduced in the early stages of training.  Nippy was right. Fear is a warning sign that people shouldn't always ignore. But the entire program was designed to have people push their fears down and see them as character flaws. So when this wild ass thing gets presented to you that your brain is saying, "girl, no!", you push forward despite those feelings. And when you're in the middle of it and your brain is screaming at you to the get the fuck out, it was all your decision because you put yourself there, so no one else is to blame.  Truly diabolical.

I liked how Sarah admitted how badass she felt after being able to be branded without screaming or crying...because she just disassociated from shock.

So much of this cult makes me think I wouldn't have been sucked in not because I'm so super smart and un-connable but because I'm just too lazy. Being expected to give these people all my money would be bad enough (bad enough to keep me out--2500 entrance fee would be enough to turn me away even if I was interested) but being expected to work all the time and get no sleep and THEN as a "game" be somebody's slave?

I was a bit annoyed at first at Nippy being asked whether he felt he hadn't "protected" his wife because it makes the assumption that his role is to protect her because he's the man. I get that he was being asked that because *of course* the men's group was all about being protective. They always are. But I liked that he said no, that he didn't know it was going on and once he did he said let's gtfo so it's not like he was Mark who ran to talk it over with Keith! His wife's a grown adult who can live with her own branding mistakes.

27 minutes ago, luckyroll3 said:

This is exactly where I was at too! I don't care how good your organization makes me feel about myself.  You can't ask me to join a "club" focused on doing good and a chance to help change the world in one breath, and in the very next breath ask me for nude pictures and the deed to my house to solidify my membership. I would have been like

It's amazing how easy it was for people to push back on the bullshit talk once they'd reached their limit. That cult-speak only worked when people were buying into it. Once they weren't willing to feel guilty about "betraying" Lauren by "sharing the secret" whatever it all unraveled. As cults go it hadn't reached the fear-for-your-life stage yet, it seemed.

[Catfi9ht]

2 hours ago, absnow54 said:

The second two episodes were not at all kind to the organization.

I'll have to agree to disagree. They seem to be focusing on two members, Lauren and Allison, and not the organization as a whole, for now. They're being far too generous to Keith Raniere. They haven't refuted any of Keith's claims about his intelligence, education, or virtuoso skills, and they haven't profiled his past at all like they have the other prominent members. That may be yet to come in future episodes, but so far, I think the profiles of the perpetrators and the victims are woefully incomplete.

[blixie]

Almost certainly they are going after Keith in the show, but they want to destroy him piece by piece.
 

Quote

But I liked that he said no, that he didn't know it was going on and once he did he said let's gtfo so it's not like he was Mark who ran to talk it over with Keith! His wife's a grown adult who can live with her own branding mistakes.

Yeah I was super biased against Mark from the start because his movie, What the Bleep Do We Know is basically all about this same kind of dumb new age-y shit and pretty sure it included anti-vax type stuff. It was Goop before Goop Gooped. So his kind of commitment to all this was very unsurprising, though I do think he's a genuine seeker he has no real sense of like science, he wants to treat all claims of health/spiritual/psychological healing as equal. NOPE. I did have to keep saying out loud every time someone was going off about how great it was with either "until they told me to fuck Keith" I never saw it, because "they never told me to fuck Keith". I still really appreciate that Bonnie saw all of the over working and weight management as clear blazing red flags of cult control and bugged out within a couple of years, and she had fallen in love with this guy who was gaga about it so that is also head clouder so that's why it even took her that long.

Edited September 8, 2020 by blixie

[Maysie]

I think there are a couple of ways people get sucked in to the level that Sarah and Mark did. First, there's that vulnerability/lack of esteem many have, and when they go to the first set of meetings, they hear stuff that is empowering to them, so they jump in with both feet. Consider that they get right down to the root of some very basic things - what do you fear? why do you fear it? let's get you over that fear! I googled Nancy and she seems to have some sort of background (psychiatric nurse and trained hypnotist) that gives her at least enough skill to be effective on some basic level - such as curing Mark's freeway phobia.

Then there's the reality that some people just have a gift for presenting bullshit in such a way that it's pearls of wisdom on a golden platter, which I think is how they clinch the deal. I've known a number of people who have a way of speaking that makes you just buy what they're saying - it may be the tone of their voice, their speaking manner, their vocabulary. It's a presence, or charisma, I guess. One person in particular I remember sounding so authoritative and convincing that I was going along with whatever she was spouting off about until I started to actually parse what she was saying and I realized she had no fucking clue what she was talking about. Now I don't find Keith all that engaging or engrossing, but if the people around him who are talk him up enough and start in on "the world's highest IQ" bs, I can see where people focus on the medium more than they do the actual message - it's like the medium becomes the message.

I have so many questions that the answers to would help me make sense of how some seemingly intelligent people end up involved to the extent that they literally submit to master/slave relationships. For example, what is the retention rate after the first group seminar? How many of the people that stick it out continue on? When do they start talking beyond vague common sense ideas and start introducing the miracle of Keith and his highest IQ ever? (I bet it's not during the first session). I kind of see the whole thing as kind of the boiled frog syndrome - you slowly turn up the water in increments and before you know it, there's a dead frog in the pot.

I'm struggling with respecting some of these people. On one hand I feel bad for them because whatever pushed them to get in so deep with what is obviously (to me) a pyramid scheme must be tough. However, when someone invites you to a master/slave relationship and then starts talking about the need for "collateral" (i.e. extortion material), that's not a figurative concept, as Sarah seemed to think she was getting into. The fact that she would even enter in to such an agreement that she would allow herself to be referred to as "slave" by her "best friend" tells me that the organization didn't want to empower its adherents too much.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I think that the techniques used to lure these people in and get them to the point where they're willing to join a secret group that requires things like collateral are similar to the way that straight up run of the mill abusive people get their victims. First they find people who have some kind of need that they can fill. Then they give them lots of attention and make them feel good. Then they amp up their demands, especially the ones that involve the amount of time they need to spend with the organization/significant other (like taking more and more seminars, doing EMs, recruiting more people), all while making them feel like they are special because they have been chosen to receive the abuser's attention. This ends up isolating them from their old life, including their friends and family. Once the abuser knows they have 90% of this person's time, they can really start increasing their demands because this person is now dependent upon them for attention, approval, and affection. And that's when they can ramp up the negative stuff because now the victim is too afraid to leave the cocoon of what they know. Leaving means having to admit to themselves and to the friends and family they ditched that they made a huge mistake and that's really hard for a lot of people to deal with, especially when they feel like they have no one they can turn to - particularly because by this point, the abuser has made sure to convince them that no one else understands them like they do. Once it gets to the point where they realize that this shit ain't right (like getting branded), they're too afraid to leave or to tell anyone because they would destroy their entire world and their sense of self after investing so much time and energy into this other person/organization.

Kind of related: I used to be a performer and at one point I sustained an injury that might have prevented me not just from performing but from even doing it at home as something I enjoyed for myself. I started questioning who I would be if I couldn't do something that I loved so much anymore. When something that used to bring you joy and that you invested so much of your time and being into might be taken away from you, it can make you question who you are without it because it feels like so much of who you are. For people like Mark and Sarah who had spent over a decade in this group, I'm guessing a lot of their identity was wrapped up in the group and how they saw themselves. I'm not justifying it, but I can understand how breaking free at that point can be really difficult because you know it means you will lose your job, your friends, and the structure of your life. It basically means walking away from everything you know and starting your life over.

4 hours ago, luckyroll3 said:

It was also so insidious how everything in all of the initial workshops were basically leading people to question their base instincts and gut feelings.  Everything from the incorporation of the EMs and being at cause to "collateralizing your word"....all introduced in the early stages of training.  Nippy was right. Fear is a warning sign that people shouldn't always ignore. But the entire program was designed to have people push their fears down and see them as character flaws. So when this wild ass thing gets presented to you that your brain is saying, "girl, no!", you push forward despite those feelings. And when you're in the middle of it and your brain is screaming at you to the get the fuck out, it was all your decision because you put yourself there, so no one else is to blame.  Truly diabolical.

This is exactly why everyone needs to read The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker. I'm not saying you need to be super paranoid, but if your gut is telling you that something isn't right, then the correct response isn't to ignore it. What NXIVM was teaching people was to blame themselves for their gut feelings.

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I liked how Sarah admitted how badass she felt after being able to be branded without screaming or crying...because she just disassociated from shock.

So much of this cult makes me think I wouldn't have been sucked in not because I'm so super smart and un-connable but because I'm just too lazy. Being expected to give these people all my money would be bad enough (bad enough to keep me out--2500 entrance fee would be enough to turn me away even if I was interested) but being expected to work all the time and get no sleep and THEN as a "game" be somebody's slave?

I was a bit annoyed at first at Nippy being asked whether he felt he hadn't "protected" his wife because it makes the assumption that his role is to protect her because he's the man. I get that he was being asked that because *of course* the men's group was all about being protective. They always are. But I liked that he said no, that he didn't know it was going on and once he did he said let's gtfo so it's not like he was Mark who ran to talk it over with Keith! His wife's a grown adult who can live with her own branding mistakes.

It's amazing how easy it was for people to push back on the bullshit talk once they'd reached their limit. That cult-speak only worked when people were buying into it. Once they weren't willing to feel guilty about "betraying" Lauren by "sharing the secret" whatever it all unraveled. As cults go it hadn't reached the fear-for-your-life stage yet, it seemed.

ITA with all of this. Sarah's interpretation of being badass just had me shaking my head at how much of that Kool-Aid she'd been drinking.

I, too, am too lazy and poor for a cult like this. I'd rather spend my money on other things and not be recruiting people all the time (which is just way too time consuming for me). And that's before all the 5/8/16 day seminars.

I thought the same thing when the interviewer asked Nippy that question but I liked his answer because duh, how was he supposed to "protect" her from something that he didn't know was happening? And it's not his job to make decisions for her. Yes, they're married but she is still an adult who gets to make her own choices. And it was amazing when he dropped the cult vocabulary and the requisite calmness and just yelled at her. It was obviously game over for him at that point.

I agree that the timeline and reenactments are not always made clear. For example, at the end of episode two, Mark tells Sarah about his suspicions about DOS, she basically confirms that she had already been invited to join the group, and then he stops recording so that she can tell him everything. Then Mark tells the interviewer that Sarah told him that she was in DOS, she had given collateral, and that she had been branded. At the beginning of the third episode, he tells her that she needs to stay in the group and record everything which seems to indicate that this conversation took place after she confirmed she was in DOS. Later in the third episode, she gets branded which obviously happened before all that.

[pigs-in-space]

3 hours ago, blixie said:

Yeah I was super biased against Mark from the start because his movie, What the Bleep Do We Know is basically all about this same kind of dumb new age-y shit and pretty sure it included anti-vax type stuff. It was Goop before Goop Gooped.

LOL!

On a completely shallow note, that brand was fucking ugly and only looked worse as it healed.  

[Jextella]

On 9/5/2020 at 5:44 AM, mamadrama said:

My husband watched the interview between him and Allison and after 2 minutes was like, "He's not saying anything! He's just stringing together random words."

This is what I've been thinking all along.  I've tried to really "listen" when talk about theory happens, but so far I don't see any sort of cohesive mental state people are supposedly aiming for.

On 9/7/2020 at 12:24 AM, Door County Cherry said:

I thought that was only because of the holiday weekend.  If it's every week, I'll need to look for this on Friday.

I'm very into this documentary.  The fact that Mark is a filmmaker and recorded everything really helped round out the telling of the story from the Mark, Bonnie, Sarah and her husband POV.  

But I really would love to see the Alison Mack side of all of this.  She joined years after Sarah and Mark joined yet she rose so fast to the point that it looks like she started this sex cult side of the operation.  

Me too!

 

[blixie]

Quote

However, when someone invites you to a master/slave relationship and then starts talking about the need for "collateral" (i.e. extortion material), that's not a figurative concept

Yeah that as a big disconnect I had, she says well Lauren explained the master/slave stuff was only metaphorical, but she's asking for videos and pictures which are literal pieces of blackmail, not metaphorical ones. WAKE UP SARAH.

I also would be interested not only about retention rates, but also about how many people bug out late? Like the one piece I know that keeps a lot of Scientologists in line is the practice of disconnection, above and beyond the collateral/blackmail they build up in auditing. When you leave you are dead to every one still in. It doesn't appear Raniere advocated that kind of penalty for those who left. Which is why he got busted, but also maybe why he was able to to not have as many leave the cult.

[DanaK]

This series is so riveting so far. I had started to hear about the group in the last couple of years, starting when Allison Mack got arrested or maybe a little before that. So I had a fair bit of knowledge about the more salacious parts, though not as much about the more mundane mlm/pyramid scheme part of it

I’ve been thinking for awhile that people have to be careful about making one thing in your life the center of your life and pushing out everything else. That applies not just to cults, but mainstream churches, work and anything else that you might over focus on and lose your identity and community if you decide not to do it anymore. So like others, I can see it being hard for people to leave the group initially. However the DOS sex cult thing should have been an instant nope, but on the other hand, as others surmised, if you have already been brainwashed enough by the group, you would be likely to brush away your doubts and fears, at least initially

I'm actually glad they are going into some detail here about the techniques used as it might help people see the issues when some self help group comes calling. It might even help people spot smaller mlm/pyramid scheme things for what they are

[sainte-chapelle]

On 9/7/2020 at 8:25 AM, absnow54 said:

Nippy’s (dumb nickname aside) smack down of Lauren was glorious. 

It was....I rewatched him reading her for filth at least 5 times. So far he has come across as the most genuine and open person participating in the series besides  BonnieMark lost me when he told a newly branded Sarah to smile and suck it up. What a misogynistic thing to say.

Edited September 9, 2020 by sainte-chapelle

[blixie]

I've seen a couple of people mad at Mark saying Sarah should smile and suck it up, but I thought he only meant that if she needed to time to process how to get out, especially re: Nippy and their finances,  she would have to smile and fake it for a bit. He said it directly in response to her worry about how ESP was her income.  I think he was actually trying to comfort her in that she didn't need to walk out the door that second if she wasn't ready and that he and Bonnie and a few other people were clearly out there to support her when she wanted to make her move. He's certainly oblivious but not malicious.

[LeGrandElephant]

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

was a bit annoyed at first at Nippy being asked whether he felt he hadn't "protected" his wife because it makes the assumption that his role is to protect her because he's the man. I get that he was being asked that because *of course* the men's group was all about being protective. They always are. But I liked that he said no, that he didn't know it was going on and once he did he said let's gtfo so it's not like he was Mark who ran to talk it over with Keith! His wife's a grown adult who can live with her own branding mistakes.

TBH I kind of felt like Sarah betrayed HIM pretty badly. He seemed like a perfectly nice guy who didn’t do anything wrong (except get involved in an overpriced self help group, but his group seemed to have good principles), and his wife not only agreed to a relationship with someone else that was supposed to supersede her marriage to him and got branded without telling him, but she also made up “collateral” about how he abused their son! That could have seriously ruined his life and lost him access to his own son. I guess we are supposed to feel bad for Sarah because she was brainwashed, and I partly do, but I also partly think she’s a responsible adult and mother who made appalling decisions that could have seriously hurt her family, and it doesn’t show very good judgement at all. I wouldn’t have blamed him if he wanted to divorce her and get sole custody. But I also think it’s to his credit that his impulse was instead to protect her and get her out of there. 

Edited September 9, 2020 by LeGrandElephant

[Door County Cherry]

2 hours ago, blixie said:

I've seen a couple of people mad at Mark saying Sarah should smile and suck it up, but I thought he only meant that if she needed to time to process how to get out, especially re: Nippy and their finances,  she would have to smile and fake it for a bit. He said it directly in response to her worry about how ESP was her income.  I think he was actually trying to comfort her in that she didn't need to walk out the door that second if she wasn't ready and that he and Bonnie and a few other people were clearly out there to support her when she wanted to make her move.

I agree with this.  I didn't see it as misogyny or forcing her to do something she didn't want to do.  

It sounds like he was maybe the first "insider" who told her what was going on wasn't right.  On one hand, it was probably a relief because it was confirming something she was suspecting but on the other hand, it absolutely upends the foundation on which she built her life.  And she was clearly struggling with it with her panic attack and fears about her income.  

He told her to suck it up until things settled in for her which was the smart thing to recommend when it comes to this cult. If she showed any vulnerability or doubt while coming to terms with the new information, he knows the cult would likely work hard to interfere and keep her in.  Perhaps even threaten her with the collateral.  Making it seem as if everything is okay gives her breathing room.

Mark likely has his issues but he did continue to try and expose the dark side of the cult to Sarah after she seemed willing to spy on him for them.  When he told her he had her back, I believed him. And if she said she wanted to leave right then and there, I fully believe he would have supported her.  She just didn't know yet what she wanted to do or how to handle it. 

A lot of this footage is from a decision they made to film as much as they could about their decision to leave the cult for protection. 

13 hours ago, Catfi9ht said:

I worry that this one is attempting to be too one-sided in the favor of the cult itself. One of the directors of the documentary completed a NXIVM course in 2017 shortly before the scandal broke. According to this LA Times article, this was their mission: the nine-part docuseries also offers a sympathetic portrait of the spiritual seekers who were duped by the alleged con man. And, as Amer and Noujaim say, that was a key part of their mission.

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/tv/story/2020-09-06/the-vow-nxivm-cult-directors

Sorry for the soap box, but it really bothers me when an opinion piece masquerades as factual

Documentaries do have artistic points of view and the directors have been clear about their point of view here.  In the article, the documentary producers are clear that what interested them initially was to follow Mark and Sarah's journey as they grappled with realizing how wrong their belief system had been over the previous decade or more.  

So they're sympathetic to the people who got drawn into the cult but I haven't seen anything that made me think they're being sympathetic to the organization itself.  

We're learning about Keith the way Mark, Bonnie and Sarah learned about Keith and I think that's an artistic choice.  In the classes they took, they're groomed to hold Keith or "Vanguard" in reverence before they even meet him. They're regaled with his accomplishments and transcendent ideas.  So by the time they're in the presence of this man, who seems pretty mediocre when seen without all that grooming, they're convinced he's special and that they're special if he gives them his attention.  

The documentary didn't have a subtitle correcting the info provided about Keith's bio. I don't think it matters.  Even if everything he said were true, it doesn't change what ended up happening. 

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I think that the techniques used to lure these people in and get them to the point where they're willing to join a secret group that requires things like collateral are similar to the way that straight up run of the mill abusive people get their victims. First they find people who have some kind of need that they can fill. Then they give them lots of attention and make them feel good. Then they amp up their demands, especially the ones that involve the amount of time they need to spend with the organization/significant other (like taking more and more seminars, doing EMs, recruiting more people), all while making them feel like they are special because they have been chosen to receive the abuser's attention. This ends up isolating them from their old life, including their friends and family.

Yep.  They haven't gotten to that yet but I do think isolation was part of the program for some people.  I believe that's what we'll hear when

Spoiler

Catherine Oxenberg shows up. 

 

4 hours ago, blixie said:

I also would be interested not only about retention rates, but also about how many people bug out late? 

It sounds like there were different levels of the cult.  Like you could take classes and just take classes without ever moving up the sash train. Or you could get super involved which would bring you closer and closer to Keith.  

[kitmerlot1213]

On 9/6/2020 at 3:04 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Even before they really delved into episode three, I was annoyed with Mark. He told Sarah that he, a man who was suffering no physical or sexual abuse, was resigning from the cult but that she was going to have to smile and suck it up.

I thought Mark told Sarah she had to suck it up because she was so financially tied to the cult--it was her main source of income so she had to bide her time until she could leave and get another job. 

 

On 9/7/2020 at 8:25 AM, absnow54 said:

Nippy’s (dumb nickname aside) smack down of Lauren was glorious. 

And I loved how Lauren immediately punked down when he started yelling that what was happening with the branding/collateral/sex with Keith was sick and wrong and that he was out.  Truly awesome scene.

I also loved Sarah's words to Mark about all of the people they recruited:  "We got them in, we got to get them out."  Good for them for realizing that they had to help the other members see just how dangerous their group at become and they especially had to work to stop the exploitation of it's members, particularly the women.

There is also a part of me that loves that Grace Park and Kristen Kreuk's names keep getting brought up and that Mark's videos show that they were deeply involved in the cult, especially Kreuk.  She posted some bullshit note that "she only took a couple of classes when she was 23" when in reality she was a coach and recruiter.  I hope more people, i.e. the press, start asking her more questions about her true involvement.

[absnow54]

24 minutes ago, kitmerlot1213 said:

There is also a part of me that loves that Grace Park and Kristen Kreuk's names keep getting brought up and that Mark's videos show that they were deeply involved in the cult, especially Kreuk.  She posted some bullshit note that "she only took a couple of classes when she was 23" when in reality she was a coach and recruiter.  I hope more people, i.e. the press, start asking her more questions about her true involvement.

Curious if there’s some collateral hanging over them, otherwise they’d probably be more open to their experience and why they left. I do find it odd that they keep on talking about Kreuk and how she left, but there’s no follow up. Then again, maybe she had an uneventful realization that NIVXM was a crock like Bonnie did, and is just embarrassed to have ever been involved. 

[sainte-chapelle]

12 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

I agree with this.  I didn't see it as misogyny or forcing her to do something she didn't want to do.  

 

Yep.  They haven't gotten to that yet but I do think isolation was part of the program for some people.  I believe that's what we'll hear when

  Hide contents

 

 

It sounds like there were different levels of the cult.  Like you could take classes and just take classes without ever moving up the sash train. Or you could get super involved which would bring you closer and closer to Keith.  

I don't think he is a misogynist ....it was just a misogynistic thing to say IMO considered, thus far, that his experience was vastly different from some of the women enrolled in the cult. Perhaps a poor choice of words, it just rubbed me the wrong way. I think someone mentioned that the cults doctrine was to 'smile and suck it up', ignoring fear and gut feelings. That is a good point.

I think it was very telling that both Bonnie and Sarah mention that almost everyone who attended their weddings were members. I hope they get more into the isolation and blackmail aspects involved.

Edited September 9, 2020 by sainte-chapelle

[blixie]

They actually haven't mentioned Grace Park's name, they have shown her numerous times but not said it in the soundtrack that I remember. And Kreuk they only mentioned once after repeated glimpses, I found that really curious it seems like maybe they, Mark/Sarah, feel like those women were ultimately more suckers than recruiters at least relative to themselves so don't want to do a lot of finger pointing and they want to stay tight on who is most responsible for DOS aka Allie and Keith, Nancy Saltzman (and the two heiress'). 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

3 hours ago, blixie said:

They actually haven't mentioned Grace Park's name, they have shown her numerous times but not said it in the soundtrack that I remember.

 

7 hours ago, kitmerlot1213 said:

There is also a part of me that loves that Grace Park and Kristen Kreuk's names keep getting brought up and that Mark's videos show that they were deeply involved in the cult, especially Kreuk.  She posted some bullshit note that "she only took a couple of classes when she was 23" when in reality she was a coach and recruiter.  I hope more people, i.e. the press, start asking her more questions about her true involvement.

I'm 95% sure that they showed Grace Park's name on screen as a chyron when she was shown interviewing Keith, but I'd have to go back and check to be sure. Or maybe I just assumed it was there? At any rate, she was definitely shown as a bridesmaid at Sarah and Nippy's wedding.

[Itsallgud]

I still keep wondering about the answer to this very obvious questIon.  How in the world did Nippy not see that his wife was branded?  Weren’t they in their late 30s or early 40s at the time?  I seem to recall when I was at that age, not much around where Sarah got branded would have gone unnoticed!

[luckyroll3]

They definitely showed her name a few times. 

[Tachi Rocinante]

On 9/7/2020 at 1:24 AM, Door County Cherry said:

I thought that was only because of the holiday weekend.  If it's every week, I'll need to look for this on Friday.

I'm very into this documentary.  The fact that Mark is a filmmaker and recorded everything really helped round out the telling of the story from the Mark, Bonnie, Sarah and her husband POV.  

But I really would love to see the Alison Mack side of all of this.  She joined years after Sarah and Mark joined yet she rose so fast to the point that it looks like she started this sex cult side of the operation.  

Now I'm not sure.  It looks like they are back to Sundays for both shows.

[EdnasEdibles]

Watching this made me dig deep into the podcasts surrounding it. Good lord, what a mess.

My feeling on Mark is that if it weren't for the sex stuff, he would have stayed in it forever. He loves that new agey "Be the Secret!" stuff and I don't even thing the MLM aspect of it bothered him at all. It was losing his wife if he stayed and the idea of the sex cult. 

But with Sarah, I don't know what to say about her. I feel like she would have stayed with it forever. With the branding I feel like she didn't want to be branded but also that she was OK coercing people and hoodwinking them, but was upset to discover that she was coerced. I think she thought she was at the top of the pyramid and when she discovered she's not one of the organizers and deciders and is instead someone to coerce, she was annoyed. 

[luckyroll3]

2 hours ago, EdnasEdibles said:

But with Sarah, I don't know what to say about her. I feel like she would have stayed with it forever. With the branding I feel like she didn't want to be branded but also that she was OK coercing people and hoodwinking them, but was upset to discover that she was coerced. I think she thought she was at the top of the pyramid and when she discovered she's not one of the organizers and deciders and is instead someone to coerce, she was annoyed. 

I kind of agree.  Part of me thinks that Sarah was pissed that she was brought into DOS for her recruitment skills instead of to "serve" Keith.  She was cool with everything (and I don't know if I believe she thought everything was only "metaphorical") up until she realized that everyone else was still getting more access to Keith and she was being asked to do more work.  I'll just go over here and sit at this table for 1.  Lol!

Edited September 10, 2020 by luckyroll3

[MicheleinPhilly]

1 hour ago, EdnasEdibles said:

My feeling on Mark is that if it weren't for the sex stuff, he would have stayed in it forever. He loves that new agey "Be the Secret!" stuff and I don't even thing the MLM aspect of it bothered him at all. It was losing his wife if he stayed and the idea of the sex cult. 

I've also been wondering whether they were so successful in recruiting these Hollywood wannabes and Hollywood adjacent people because so much of this entire operation was performative in nature. 

Standing up there and selling everyone a crock of shit and convincing them to part with thousands of dollars in cash takes some skill. I don't doubt that many of them believed in this crap but in a way it allowed them to "act" for a living and get paid for it.  

[EdnasEdibles]

16 minutes ago, MicheleinPhilly said:

I've also been wondering whether they were so successful in recruiting these Hollywood wannabes and Hollywood adjacent people because so much of this entire operation was performative in nature. 

Standing up there and selling everyone a crock of shit and convincing them to part with thousands of dollars in cash takes some skill. I don't doubt that many of them believed in this crap but in a way it allowed them to "act" for a living and get paid for it.  

I absolutely think that was the case with Sarah. She was not really a successful actress. The clip of that vampire show is cringey. This allowed her to make money and perform and be on stage and be famous in a small circle. There's even that scene of Keith directing her and being like "No, you need to be bigger and say 'GOOD MORNING!'" and it was probably like getting notes from a director. I think she loved that aspect of it. 

In the podcast she talked about how she'd convince people to join and be like "It's only $2,000!" and if they were like "But I don't have that" she'd then come back with "But if you needed surgery and that surgery was $2,000, wouldn't you be able to find that money? Talk to the friends who you think would help you with that. Sell your car. Do what you have to do because you're creating your future!" -- really icky stuff like that and she didn't see any problem with that. So, knowing stuff like that is keeping me from feeling really sorry for her. I know that people change and they learn more but Bonnie is kind of my hero in this. It took Bonnie very little time to be like "The hell? This is messed up!" and I applaud her for that. 

I do laugh at the fact that Allison Mack is the Tom Cruise of this cult. Like  . . . her? That's as big as you could get? Her? I can't help but think that the Smallville set must have been a terrible place when she and Kristen joined up. Poor Tom Welling. The stories he could tell.

 

 

[DanaK]

Perhaps this has been revealed already in previous legal stuff or we'll hear more about it in the rest of the series, but I wonder what came first, the pyramid scheme selling/Keith algorithm nonsense or the Keith-gets-his-jollies sex cult thing and other sexual abuse practices. Wikipedia's article on him makes it sound like he was kind of icky around women even when he was young

[Maysie]

Bonnie is the only one I'm not still giving some sort of side eye. That may change as the documentary progresses, but I have more respect for her at this point than any of the other people I'm seeing. Apparently she was somehow able to maintain some sort of sense of self and listen to her gut and act accordingly. She was also willing to leave her marriage because she felt so strongly about it and from what I can tell of what we're watching, she didn't have the benefit of all the information that Mark and Sarah ended up with before they made their moves.

When Mark was vacillating and trying to get his own proof, I had to work to extend him some grace on it. We've heard how much he LOOOOOVES Bonnie and when she came to him with her information, he didn't appear to be as disturbed as I would have expected. I understand that's part of the cultish brainwashing aspect of all of it, but still, it would have broken my heart if I had been in her place. And I don't know how much harder I would have worked to change his mind, either.

18 minutes ago, EdnasEdibles said:

I absolutely think that was the case with Sarah. She was not really a successful actress. The clip of that vampire show is cringey. This allowed her to make money and perform and be on stage and be famous in a small circle. There's even that scene of Keith directing her and being like "No, you need to be bigger and say 'GOOD MORNING!'" and it was probably like getting notes from a director. I think she loved that aspect of it. 

In the podcast she talked about how she'd convince people to join and be like "It's only $2,000!" and if they were like "But I don't have that" she'd then come back with "But if you needed surgery and that surgery was $2,000, wouldn't you be able to find that money? Talk to the friends who you think would help you with that. Sell your car. Do what you have to do because you're creating your future!" -- really icky stuff like that and she didn't see any problem with that. So, knowing stuff like that is keeping me from feeling really sorry for her. I know that people change and they learn more but Bonnie is kind of my hero in this. It took Bonnie very little time to be like "The hell? This is messed up!" and I applaud her for that. 

I think the above is a great point about Sarah - she was an aspiring actress, and if that clip was any indication, not a very good one. I guess her acting skills were more suited to great salesmanship, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that if you're not selling something that's not unethical/illegal/immoral.

Something about Sarah bugs me, and I can't quite put my finger on it. I don't know if we were supposed to see her as this rockstar for going through with the branding without flinching but I was really disappointed in her. I would have thought she was amazing if she went walked out of the ceremony, or better still, spoke up about how messed up it was. I may have the timeline wrong, but didn't she have some information about what was going on at that point? She'd already made up the abuse lie for collateral by then (I think???); it just boggles my mind that you watch other women cry and freak out for an (ugly) brand that literally marks them as a slave and then you "show them" by accepting the brand silently? Something is off about her, for me.

I wonder how much money they were making in this pyramid scheme. Based on Sarah's range rover and what looked to be a pretty nice apartment in Vancouver, it seemed like they were fairly prosperous. Of course, in those setups, everyone you bring in is paying your salary. I'd like to know if she and Mark really "took care" of the people they recruited (I would think that would be a fair amount of people between the two of them over 10+ years), and if so, what the organization did to try to stop them.

[Catfi9ht]

4 hours ago, Maysie said:

Bonnie is the only one I'm not still giving some sort of side eye. That may change as the documentary progresses, but I have more respect for her at this point than any of the other people I'm seeing. Apparently she was somehow able to maintain some sort of sense of self and listen to her gut and act accordingly.

I completely agree. I think Bonnie still had a level head because she had a job outside of the cult, making money through her Star Wars connection.

In general, I think this is the case for humans. When we live in a bubble and become surrounded in an echo chamber, we're instinctively tribal creatures and are very susceptible to group think.

[MicheleinPhilly]

19 hours ago, EdnasEdibles said:

I do laugh at the fact that Allison Mack is the Tom Cruise of this cult. Like  . . . her? That's as big as you could get? Her? I can't help but think that the Smallville set must have been a terrible place when she and Kristen joined up. Poor Tom Welling. The stories he could tell.

If they didn't include the name of their show in the chyron I literally would have no idea who either of them are. Kristen's name seemed mildly familiar but I couldn't tell you why. Likewise with the actress from Battlestar Galactica. 👵

[kathe5133]

I find this all fascinating.  What Keith is preaching is just common ("do unto others....") sense.  I think the phrase "no one can make you feel inferior unless you let them" has been attributed to Eleanor Roosevelt.  My parents, who would never be accused of being evolved, often responded to my arguing sisters and me with the statement "she didn't "make" you mad, you let her make you mad".   I was raised to believe that although I couldn't control situations, I could control my reaction to these situations.  We didn't have "EMs" or use words like "cause" to describe any of that.  It just was life.  How sad that none of these folks learned that.  They feel the need to join a group and to pay thousands of dollars to learn what I learned for free! 

I've never been a "joiner".   Tried group therapy once, but it felt like an organized gossip session.  If I need to diet, I diet.  I don't need to go to meetings, be publicly weighed, and have each pound lost cheered. 

But how low does your self esteem need to be to fall for giving collateral?  And to agree to have your flesh seared with a hot iron?  Nope, nope, nope! 

I guess self esteem is not a given for some folks.  It makes them perfect fodder for smarmy snake oil salesman like Keith.  

[PotterOtherP]

On 9/10/2020 at 7:33 PM, Catfi9ht said:

I completely agree. I think Bonnie still had a level head because she had a job outside of the cult, making money through her Star Wars connection.

In general, I think this is the case for humans. When we live in a bubble and become surrounded in an echo chamber, we're instinctively tribal creatures and are very susceptible to group think.

My sister worked on the legal case against SeaWorld after some of their trainers were killed by the whales, and described them like this. They had invented their own techniques and terminology that were completely un-scientific, but became self-justifying because it was all proprietary insider SeaWorld material. Their logic was that nothing would go wrong if you followed the training, so if you got hurt by a whale you must not have been following the training.

[JD5166]

On 9/8/2020 at 12:14 PM, sistermagpie said:

I liked how Sarah admitted how badass she felt after being able to be branded without screaming or crying...because she just disassociated from shock.

So much of this cult makes me think I wouldn't have been sucked in not because I'm so super smart and un-connable but because I'm just too lazy. Being expected to give these people all my money would be bad enough (bad enough to keep me out--2500 entrance fee would be enough to turn me away even if I was interested) but being expected to work all the time and get no sleep and THEN as a "game" be somebody's slave?

I was a bit annoyed at first at Nippy being asked whether he felt he hadn't "protected" his wife because it makes the assumption that his role is to protect her because he's the man. I get that he was being asked that because *of course* the men's group was all about being protective. They always are. But I liked that he said no, that he didn't know it was going on and once he did he said let's gtfo so it's not like he was Mark who ran to talk it over with Keith! His wife's a grown adult who can live with her own branding mistakes.

It's amazing how easy it was for people to push back on the bullshit talk once they'd reached their limit. That cult-speak only worked when people were buying into it. Once they weren't willing to feel guilty about "betraying" Lauren by "sharing the secret" whatever it all unraveled. As cults go it hadn't reached the fear-for-your-life stage yet, it seemed.

I laughed at your post because I am lazy too. No way. 

I’ve spent way too much time thinking about this show, and I’ve decided that maybe I am just a horrible person but my empathy really only lies with Bonnie. I don’t have much time for the rest of them and their absolute need to be THE best this or that and THE closest person to so and so, bubbies on the beach, indeed. Also, Sarah seemed maybe even upset that Keith never tried to bed her. Anyone else get that from episode three? 

Don’t get me wrong, I am so finishing this!! But I am side-eyeing everyone involved a lot. My sister said I am probably a psychopath because I said that brand wasn’t that big and probably hurt, but it should have been over pretty quickly. LOL I wouldn’t let someone do it, but I have a high tolerance for pain, so again-I’m a horrible person. 

[DanaK]

Man, Episode 4 had me glued. From “Jane” to India and Catherine, I just couldn’t look away. And Keith bedding the various women like each was the special one is just so infuriating 

[Jextella]

On 9/7/2020 at 9:31 PM, LeGrandElephant said:

I've seen lots of comments, here and elsewhere, about how everyone in this cult was white. Well, it sounds like Raniere saved the worst treatment for undocumented (but from an affluent educated family) Mexican teenagers: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/michaelblackmon/nxivm-cult-woman-locked-room-keith-raniere-daniela

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/02/us/nxivm-room-testimony/index.html

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/nxivm-keith-raniere-daniela-trial-testimony-842104/

I wonder if the HBO documentary will address that. It sounds like the woman testifying in the above articles is staying anonymous, so presumably won't want to be interviewed by HBO. This documentary seems to be (understandably) focusing on the perspective of the people who are willing to provide tons of recordings and interviews, but it also seems to me like it wouldn't be a fair picture of the cult and Raniere and Lauren Salzman to not mention the above testimony. 

 

 

On 9/8/2020 at 9:23 AM, Catfi9ht said:

So far, I find Keith Raniere to be an uncompelling person with a word-salad-esque vocabulary of very watered down new-ageisms. The documentary hasn't captured what was compelling about the group or Raniere specifically IMO.

Finally as with the Tiger King and Wild, Wild Country "documentaries", I worry that this one is attempting to be too one-sided in the favor of the cult itself. One of the directors of the documentary completed a NXIVM course in 2017 shortly before the scandal broke. According to this LA Times article, this was their mission: the nine-part docuseries also offers a sympathetic portrait of the spiritual seekers who were duped by the alleged con man. And, as Amer and Noujaim say, that was a key part of their mission.

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/tv/story/2020-09-06/the-vow-nxivm-cult-directors

Sorry for the soap box, but it really bothers me when an opinion piece masquerades as factual.

None of the HBO documentaries I've seen have provided balanced coverage of the issue at hand.  They seem to have been developed to tell a single side of a story.  Not that it's "wrong" because it's their company, and they can show what they want.  The documentaries are just incomplete. IMO, of course.

I just started getting more active on social media during quarantine, and it is depressing the hell out of me.  The human race is so diverse and so intellectually fragile that blowing the tufts off a dandelion could mesmerize many into following the likes of this numbskull.

[pigs-in-space]

I made my 17-year-old sister watch the series with me and she astutely pointed out that a lot of this group wasn’t achieving much since they were spending all their time taking courses and watching Keith and his sweatbands play volleyball. They all seemed to come in with loftier goals and those gradually got superseded by the cult.

The first meeting between Allison Mack and Keith creeped me out. She seemed exhausted and vulnerable. And was Keith saying art doesn’t matter because you can make yourself feel joy? Whaaaa? It seemed more like a tactic to put her down and make him look superior than an actual informed opinion.

Jane’s story was interesting. It wasn’t super clear if she joined DOS even before taking ESP courses - if so that’s a huge WTF from me. We’re also finally told there’s at least one black member of the cult. 
 

ETA: Thinking about Keith and who he went after sexually, I think Bonnie and Sarah were very lucky because they were married to fairly powerful men within the org (Mark being Keith’s only male friend and Nippy being head of SOP). I don’t think Keith wanted to risk alienating them.

Edited September 14, 2020 by pigs-in-space

[Cheezwiz]

I've watched episodes 1-3 so far. I second the sentiments of posters above - I never would have gotten sucked into this cult myself because a)I'm too poor, b)I'm lazy as hell, plus I love to eat. Nonetheless, it is fascinating to watch how others got so thoroughly bamboozled.

So many parallels to Scientology. Basically Keith stole the playbook, point for point. The only difference being that he added his own secret sex slave spin, and didn't declare his organization to be a church as a tax dodge. But everything else is pretty much the same - lure people in with pop-psychology mumbo jumbo, make them feel special, like they have a purpose, and a loving supportive community. Get them going on pyramid scheme techniques. Recruit people in the entertainment industry who are very physically attractive but insecure. Use sleep/hunger deprivation techniques as control mechanisms. Get recruits to furnish handy blackmail material. 

So much of the filmed word salad training sessions (along with the bullshit forced volleyball games) we see also reminded me of corporate nonsense I have witnessed in the past. ((Shudder)). In addition to Scientology, there are so many parallels to the way things work in the corporate world.

Thus far the only two people who seem to have had real mettle were Bonnie and Nippy (God help me, but that nickname is ridiculous. No matter how great a guy he might be, I just don't think I could get involved with someone who voluntarily used that as a name).

I don't know if the documentary will address it (I sure hope so, 'cause it's 9 episodes LONG), but I want to know the REAL backgrounds of Keith and Nancy Salzman. What was the nature of their relationship? How did they meet, and start these BS training seminars? Did it start out organically, or did they cook up a masterplan to bilk people from the get-go? Clearly Keith lied about his background, so who is he really? I'm just not seeing what others found so compelling about him, and I'd like the portrait he presented to recruits to be picked apart systematically.

 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

As I discussed in my previous post, I theoretically understand how cults and abusers slowly lure their prey in by making them feel special and isolating them and ramping up their demands so I get how people can be sucked in over a period of time. But how on earth did Rachel convince Jane, who didn't mention knowing anything about ESP or NXVIM, straight into giving collateral and becoming a slave? I'm really struggling to understand that.

Jane just handed over pictures, videos, a letter about her brother, AND all of her social media passwords? Rachel must be persuasive as hell. The argument she supposedly gave Jane about how if she didn't give her collateral then it was proof that she didn't trust herself and was the one holding herself back? Sheesh. And even then she still wasn't told everything about DOS! So did she become involved with ESP after she joined DOS? Because she obviously knew some of the other members since she said she knew India, Pam, and Keith (and she mentioned that Rachel introduced her to JNESS, the women's group).

I can't imagine having to ask permission for X number of calories every time I ate. As for the having to respond within a minute with "Ready, master," ugh. I love technology. The ability to text, have access to the internet, etc. are all awesome things. But I hate that now it means people expect you to be accessible at all times. No, I don't need to answer the phone or text you back immediately because I AM WORKING or POOPING or READING A BOOK. Unless your house is on fire, I'm pretty sure that your text or call can wait until I'm free.

If the purpose of DOS was to make everyone more accountable to themselves and to their friends and to the world, it seems counterintuitive to tell new recruits that they can't tell anyone about the existence of DOS or their commitment to it. So what exactly are you supposed to tell your non-DOS friends when you have to take a picture of your meal, text it to your master, and ask permission for the calories? Obviously you're supposed to lie which is the opposite of being accountable.

The failure forms sounded like a way to force you to berate yourself and feel like shit so that you need their approval even more. The escalation with consequences was ridiculous. If a boyfriend said you had to get permission before texting ANYONE or you would be spanked, there would be red flags flying and warning bells going off like crazy. Allison gaslighting Jane by saying her resistance to the process was a sign of being conceited made no sense at all. Really? Not wanting someone to control every aspect of your life is a sign of conceit?

Keith's explanation to Jane about how he created DOS because he saw women being thwarted by men in positions of power just made me shake my head.

I'm glad they included Catherine Oxenberg and India because it must be heartbreaking to learn that your child is (1) involved in a cult (2) has handed over blackmail material which possibly includes information about you and your family members (3) is starving herself (4) has been branded (5) is a sex slave. And to hear your daughter then cheerfully confirm it? I can't imagine how painful that would be to hear from your daughter (interestingly, they left out the part where Catherine was the one who introduced India to NXIVM in the first place). Catherine had a pretty clear picture of Keith and how all of this nonsense was all disguised as personal growth so I'm surprised that she was the one who went to seminars before India.

Haha, Nippy continues to be one of my favorite people involved in this. He was ready to burn it all to the ground.

I had to laugh when they brought up the Frank Report because when I googled NXIVM after I started watching this show, his website was one of the first that popped up and it was FULL of information.

Confession: every time someone says "Allie Mack," my initial reaction is to think they're talking about The Secret World of Alex Mack and I expect to see Larisa Oleynik.

[luckyroll3]

5 hours ago, pigs-in-space said:

We’re also finally told there’s at least one black member of the cult. 

I'm side-eying this so hard.  I haven't finished the episode yet, but it's not lost on me that they have photos and video of almost EVERY single member, yet we haven't seen a single black person in any of them.  There are tons of people with their faces blurred out, but this one critical part of the story is nothing but reenactments? (I mean, thanks for giving a job to a black actress.) I have trouble believing that they just never happened to capture the image of this mythical being.  I know we're magical and all, but c'mon!

Also, Jane's story doesn't jibe well with everyone else's.  They all had this journey of doing the steps, working their way up the ladder, or rather through the sashes, and becoming devotees of the method and culture before being approached. And she was literally just brought in off the street. Something doesn't seem right.

Ok, back to the episode....

Edited September 14, 2020 by luckyroll3

[pigs-in-space]

23 minutes ago, luckyroll3 said:

I'm side-eying this so hard.  I haven't finished the episode yet, but it's not lost on me that they have photos and video of almost EVERY single member, yet we haven't seen a single black person in any of them.  There are tons of people with their faces blurred out, but this one critical part of the story is nothing but reenactments? (I mean, thanks for giving a job to a black actress.) I have trouble believing that they just never happened to capture the image of this mythical being.  I know we're magical and all, but c'mon!

Also, Jane's story doesn't jibe well with everyone else's.  They also had this journey of doing the steps, working their way up the ladder, or rather through the sashes, and becoming devotees of the method and culture before being approached. And she was literally just brought in off the street. Something doesn't seem right.

Ok,  back to the episode....

I found info and pictures of her online thanks to a google search, and it seems she’s still loyal to Keith. She probably asked not to have her info used (I know there were rumors right before this started airing that current cult members were encouraged to contact HBO and refuse to have their name included). It’s still very weird that she hasn’t been spotted in any video/pictures though, even just in the background or blurred out.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, luckyroll3 said:

Also, Jane's story doesn't jibe well with everyone else's.  They also had this journey of doing the steps, working their way up the ladder, or rather through the sashes, and becoming devotees of the method and culture before being approached. And she was literally just brought in off the street. Something doesn't seem right.

Right? I don't get that at all. So, you were introduced to urban farmer Rachael who told you that she could help you solve all of your problems but first you had to give up blackmail information so she could trust you enough to tell you about the secret group you couldn't tell anyone else about? Seems legit! And I kept waiting for "Racheal" to be interviewed as it seemed like it wasn't made very clear that the "footage" they had of her was a reenactment. 

I also got the impression that the Catherine Oxenberg segments were reenactments as well. 

I really, really do not like Mark. He seems shady as shit. 

The only takeaway I'm getting from this show is there seems to be an infinite amount of educated, upper-middle-class people completely devoid of critical thinking skills. 

[luckyroll3]

1 hour ago, pigs-in-space said:

I found info and pictures of her online thanks to a google search, and it seems she’s still loyal to Keith.

Can you share the links you found?

[For Cereals]

6 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

So much of the filmed word salad training sessions (along with the bullshit forced volleyball games) we see also reminded me of corporate nonsense I have witnessed in the past. ((Shudder)). In addition to Scientology, there are so many parallels to the way things work in the corporate world.

This!  It’s all word salad and meaningless.  When I worked for a large corporation for many years, one year we were pirates and then a couple of years later we were supposed to be “mindful,” but the message was always about how you were responsible.  Feeling stressed?  You need to figure out work/life balance...maybe meditate in your car over lunch.  It’s not about our policies.  I have donated so many of those books over the years.

[luckyroll3]

I'm wondering if the weight/counting calories thing has anything to do psychologically with Keith's life partner who died of cancer, especially as it seems like Allison took her place literally and figuratively?

Speaking of Allison, the part where they meet for the first time is so damn cringey. I had to rewind it a few times because I was having difficulty understanding what Keith was getting at.  "Art is for people who can't do"? What a load of bullshit! And the way he was looking at Allison....how did her creep-dar not immediately go off. She clearly liked it though, and added her own cringiness with her popped cherry comment. Ugh!

[DanaK]

7 hours ago, pigs-in-space said:

The first meeting between Allison Mack and Keith creeped me out. She seemed exhausted and vulnerable. And was Keith saying art doesn’t matter because you can make yourself feel joy? Whaaaa? It seemed more like a tactic to put her down and make him look superior than an actual informed opinion.

That scene really resonated with me, which leads me to confess something. I'm Catholic, but I started to get involved in a different church at some point when I was in college (it may have been my freshman year, but I don't recall for sure as it was nearly 40 years ago). It was inadvertent at first. I started to do some Bible study with my Resident Advisor (college student who was basically the floor mother for the students on her floor) and pretty quickly she was basically telling me Catholicism was bad and that her church was the only one with the right answer. I got pulled in deeper and actually thought about joining because I guess I was searching for some spiritual guidance at that point. They were a breakaway Conservative congregation from a larger church so I wouldn't call them a cult, but they certainly had sway over their members' lives, including making sure they went to church (more than once a week as I recall) and their way was the right and only way. My parents were certainly alarmed and that and other things made me realize this church wasn't right for me and was hinky and maybe too controlling in a few ways. The above scene reminded me especially of the early Bible study meetings with my RA who made me feel the Catholic Church and any other church but hers was the wrong way (yes, I know the Catholic Church has its own issues, but that's not the point here). I recall my Mom afterwards spoke to someone at the school about the RA recruiting naive college students to her church, but they basically shrugged their shoulders and said freedom of religion or something

Edited September 14, 2020 by DanaK