The Vow

[HC87]

^^^^ 100% agreed....this was probably the most frustratingly bad documentary I've ever seen....and I've seen a LOT.

Wish I had Starz but I'm basically maxed out on cable, streaming choices.....life's too short.

[DanaK]

1 hour ago, Maysie said:

And another Catherine question came to me: why didn't she consult a professional to see how to deal with a child that has fallen prey to being brainwashed? I understand talking it out with your friends, but we were kind of baffled when they were all hanging out at her friend's house and she was quizzing him on what she should say to India when she saw her. It seems that someone with Catherine's resources would have been able to find someone other than a wealthy friend who could help her navigate her interactions with India to understand how to approach her daughter for the best possible outcome. And if her friend had that experience, let us know that!

Catherine did have several professionals helping her, including a cult deprogrammer. I’m not sure if most of them were used before or after she got India back

[Fleegull]

HBO is going to run out of original scripted programming soon, it's no wonder that they greenlit a second season of a documentary that already has most of its footage (from the court case) banked and can incorporate phone and Zoom interviews.

[TVbitch]

So many of these cult leaders seem to be intelligent, charismatic, well-read, well-spoken, and have a strong ability to influence people. It's a shame they can't actually use their powers for good. It seems to always come down to being about their dick. ...and them being sociopaths, of course.  

Mark seems most upset that he was totally committed to Keith, and Keith used him. That scene where he had a little breakdown, and sat down and cried, he said Keith "pierced his soul with a dagger and enjoyed it." That is someone who is not over his achy breaky heart. 

[FozzyBear]

On 10/19/2020 at 7:13 AM, EdnasEdibles said:

Yes! Mark does this a lot "We joined a good thing and it turned out to be a cult" but no Mark, you never joined a good thing. Never. Using the kindest description of Nxivm, you joined an MLM focused on shady psycho babble. That's not a good thing. It never was a good thing. Your wealth depended upon recruiting others for this. Even very early on your "mentor" was making your wife lick puddles and chastised her for not running headfirst into a tree. Mark keeps focusing on this idea that he was a very good person who fell into a good program that eventually became bad. Mark needs to own his choices and his issues. He has some internal needs (belonging, spirituality, being important, being respected) that he is meeting in unhealthy ways - the unhealthiest and most recent was joining this cult. That doesn't mean he's a bad person but until he accepts that it is more multi-layered than "I am a good person who joined a good group that turned into a bad group"

I also loved when he and Bonnie were in the cafe and that lady was like "Oh I met them and i knew right away something was off" - Bonnie & Mark seem very focused on how this could have happened to anyone. Literally anyone. And that's sort of true but also sort of not true. I think we are all susceptible to being hoodwinked more than we'd like to imagine we could be. Just the other week I sat on a stupid Juice Plus webinar because a woman I used to know convinced me to join her fun "Mom's night out" zoom and as soon as I realized what was going on, I felt like it would be too rude to log out. That's small scale of course. But I see people in this thread and in other places talk about how they were invited into a weird church or they were invited into a weird group and they realized something was off and noped the hell out of there as soon as possible. So I think we all can be approached and I think on lesser scales we all go along with something uncomfortable for some reason or another. But a great number of people in society say "This isn't right" and get out of there. Mark and Bonnie did not. Especially Mark. I feel like Mark keeps clinging to this whole idea that he did nothing wrong, he's a good person, this could have happened to anyone. No, Mark. You need to figure out exactly what hole you were trying to fill by joining this group and then try to fill that in some healthier ways through therapy or anti-anxiety medication or something. 

I agree. I think Mark and Bonnie have really surrounded themselves with ex-cult members and that very Southern Californian new age way of looking at information that prizes being non judgment and openly exploring feelings over skepticism and critique. There’s nothing wrong with that but it’s not the only way of thinking and Mark and Bonnie seemed really shocked that anyone wouldn’t be using therapy speak as a means of communication. Sarah and Nippy seem a little more aware of how this looks to people outside their circle. Maybe that’s just a byproduct of living in Vancouver instead of LA or something about their personal  experience, but Sarah and Nippy seem more aware that their credibility is over for life in some ways. They’re always going to be the sucker who feel for the cult.

And in a weird way I even agree with Bonnie (I refuse to agree with Mark about anything just out of principle) that anyone can get sucked into a cult. It’s just that not everyone can get sucked into every cult. NXIVM wasn’t some brilliant plan no one could see through, but it was pretty well calibrated to appeal to modestly successful arty types with strongly extroverted tendencies that took a lot of pleasure in being part of groups and were already comfortable with self help vocabulary (the lead in your high school play who was also voted Best Smile and had a 3 episode arch in a CW show and now works as a life coach). Other types of cults wouldn’t appeal to them. I doubt Bonnie would have stuck around for a far right religious cult or a brazenly materialistic MLM or some other nonsense, but this was right up her ally. So yeah, she’s right that in a sense that given the right circumstances pretty much anyone can find themselves giving over to a cult group of some type, but she needs to give up this idea that people would fall for NXIVM specifically. 

[sadie]

All day at work my friend and I have been having a lot of fun yelling “I’ll alert the rebels” and running out of the room. It’s funny every single time. (Sorry guys not making light of the whole sex trafficking thing but Mark, Bonnie and group I think took on the concept they were somehow the hero’s here wayyyyyy too far). 

[Fleegull]

The Vow Finale: How the Directors Went Past the Sex Cult To Tell NXIVM's Deeper Story

One would hope that for the second season they learn to edit, edit, edit and that Mark isn't nearly as interesting as he thinks he is.

I think a certain type of naivete plays a big part in who can be recruited into a cult or an MLM. It has nothing to do with intelligence and a lot to do with being open minded in a way that limits critical thinking because you don't want to miss out on something "special". NXIVM used to refund the $5000 feel for the second part of their intensive if a participant signed up three people to take the first part, that's classic MLM behavior and I can't see how anyone alive today wouldn't recognize that. Even in 2004 I knew that was how MLM's operated. However, someone who really believed that they were being led into a better, more ethical lifestyle might happily overlook that in order to continue on that "journey". That person would never be me.

[LeGrandElephant]

Yeah, there's no way I would fall for any cult I've heard about. I'm big on critical thinking, skepticism, science, etc, and I would definitely never spend the kind of money they're talking about for any kind of seminar. I wonder if there is some type of cult that would appeal to me? Definitely not NIXIVM. Their classes were obviously designed to appeal to a certain type of person and also to weed out anyone who would call Keith on his BS. 

[Refresh]

2 hours ago, LeGrandElephant said:

I wonder if there is some type of cult that would appeal to me?

LOL. Someone should make a cult-finder quiz, Buzzfeed-style:

Like hummus and volleyball? You'd be great in NXIVM!  Wardrobe full of reds, oranges and pinks your style? You might enjoy following the Bagwan. Like Kool Aid and South American travel? People's temple is for you!

(Ooof. That's pretty dark. What did I eat for lunch?)

Not to get too off topic but you raise an interesting question about if there is a scientific cult,  and it reminded me of Theranos & Elizabeth Holmes. (HBO Documentary The Inventor: Out For Blood) Theranos could be considered a modern science version of a cult. You have this person/leader who is clearly very intelligent (but in a delusional way), sees themselves as a visionary, starts a "game-changing" business, gets a lot of high profile investment and big clients through a series of lies, deceptions and falsehoods. You have very smart people who were suckered in financially and/or left very lucrative positions to be part of what she was building because they believed in it and her.  The fallout comes from whistleblowers, then there are legal threats, a suicide related to the business etc. There are some parallels.  It's not the same thing as a cult, it's a fraudulent business, but at peak they had 800 employees and a huge amount of investment.  I'm sure there were a lot of employees who stayed at the job because they believed in the goal (which is in theory an amazing product) or maybe they suspected things were not legit but they stayed because were getting paid. 

I truly hope that by being a skeptic, critical, self-aware, introverted and not a joiner I'm not as susceptible but if there's someone out there intent on deceiving me and studied in those techniques, they probably could. Maybe that's why I'm into these cult shows. To arm myself with awareness of the techniques used so I can watch out for them. I was into learning about cults before the Landmark experience I mentioned upthread and I know that helped with my flight response from those crazy weirdos.  

 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Refresh

[Jextella]

On 10/20/2020 at 3:21 PM, HC87 said:

^^^^ 100% agreed....this was probably the most frustratingly bad documentary I've ever seen....and I've seen a LOT.

Wish I had Starz but I'm basically maxed out on cable, streaming choices.....life's too short.

 

11 hours ago, Refresh said:

LOL. Someone should make a cult-finder quiz, Buzzfeed-style:

Like hummus and volleyball? You'd be great in NXIVM!  Wardrobe full of reds, oranges and pinks your style? You might enjoy following the Bagwan. Like Kool Aid and South American travel? People's temple is for you!

(Ooof. That's pretty dark. What did I eat for lunch?)

Not to get too off topic but you raise an interesting question about if there is a scientific cult,  and it reminded me of Theranos & Elizabeth Holmes. (HBO Documentary The Inventor: Out For Blood) Theranos could be considered a modern science version of a cult. You have this person/leader who is clearly very intelligent (but in a delusional way), sees themselves as a visionary, starts a "game-changing" business, gets a lot of high profile investment and big clients through a series of lies, deceptions and falsehoods. You have very smart people who were suckered in financially and/or left very lucrative positions to be part of what she was building because they believed in it and her.  The fallout comes from whistleblowers, then there are legal threats, a suicide related to the business etc. There are some parallels.  It's not the same thing as a cult, it's a fraudulent business, but at peak they had 800 employees and a huge amount of investment.  I'm sure there were a lot of employees who stayed at the job because they believed in the goal (which is in theory an amazing product) or maybe they suspected things were not legit but they stayed because were getting paid. 

I truly hope that by being a skeptic, critical, self-aware, introverted and not a joiner I'm not as susceptible but if there's someone out there intent on deceiving me and studied in those techniques, they probably could. Maybe that's why I'm into these cult shows. To arm myself with awareness of the techniques used so I can watch out for them. I was into learning about cults before the Landmark experience I mentioned upthread and I know that helped with my flight response from those crazy weirdos.  

 

I love both of these posts. They are spot on in every way.  The Theranos/Elizabeth Holmes analogy is a great one, although I feel Elizabeth was truly nutty and believed her own mythology whereas I don't think Keith would buy what Keith built and sold. He's more of a con man.

------------

Has anyone been tracking the evolution of NXIVM teachings? It seems to have undergone many changes - or perhaps just different uses??? Here is the progression that I've picked up on so far:

1) Self-help - to help individuals find direction/purpose/clarity

2) Executive training - to boost productivity

3) Human relationship enhancement, e.g. male and female dynamics

4) Political solution, e.g. as we saw starting to take root in Mexico

It's interesting that this thing grew from a micro- to macro-level application.

[pigs-in-space]

18 hours ago, FozzyBear said:

And in a weird way I even agree with Bonnie (I refuse to agree with Mark about anything just out of principle) that anyone can get sucked into a cult. It’s just that not everyone can get sucked into every cult. 

Very well said! I think there are so many variables in life - age, your financial situation, family, education, interests, awareness of abusive cult tactics...the list could go on. It's all incredibly theoretical, of course, since not everyone does get sucked into a cult, But I think we all have things that make us vulnerable in some way. 

[Maysie]

I think the Theranos analogy is a great one - she had some pretty high profile people hoodwinked. As well, that documentary did a great job of drawing the line from A to B, so I had a good idea of how that mess unfolded. I think The Vow's filmmakers need to watch some other documentaries before they do their final edit of part 2 of this thing to see how to put together a good narrative that holds interest.

I was thinking about it and decided that if the filmmakers wanted to spend so much time with Mark, Bonnie, etc., it would have been beneficial to show how they've been trying to recover since they got out. Instead it was so much phone time, Sarah's brand, staring into sunsets/oceans, driving in cars, looking wistful or congratulating themselves on their bravery. So when Mark has a meltdown or Bonnie is gobsmacked that a normal person realized that NXIVM was a cult with one short visit, I don't feel sorry for them. The endgame for me is they all promoted the organization and profited handsomely from it. As well, they participated in some loathsome aspects of NXIVM (Sarah's slave, Mark teaching DOS classes), which shows just how brainwashed they were. But there is nothing to indicate it won't happen again to them, particularly when they keep saying that aside from that nasty sex slave business, it was a good thing.

It's hard to know who is vulnerable to cults - I have a friend who has a grown daughter who, for a few months, fell into a Buddhist cult of all things. I don't know what made her realize that it was messed up, but she got there on her own. She's very smart and in tune with herself, so the fact she got sucked in was a little startling (I think she was at a vulnerable time in her life; her abusive marriage was ending), but I think the fact that she is smart and self aware ultimately saved her.

[Tachi Rocinante]

15 hours ago, Refresh said:

LOL. Someone should make a cult-finder quiz, Buzzfeed-style:

Like hummus and volleyball? You'd be great in NXIVM!  Wardrobe full of reds, oranges and pinks your style? You might enjoy following the Bagwan. Like Kool Aid and South American travel? People's temple is for you!

It was actually Flavor-Aid, but I understand!

[MicheleinPhilly]

Which one of you wrote this??? 😂

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2020/10/hbo-the-vow-nxivm-too-long

 

[mamadrama]

India had some interesting things to say about Mark Vicente in this article...

https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-socialite-india-oxenberg-escaped-the-nxivm-sex-cult-and-leader-keith-raniere

 

Edited October 22, 2020 by mamadrama

[LeGrandElephant]

21 hours ago, Refresh said:

Not to get too off topic but you raise an interesting question about if there is a scientific cult,  and it reminded me of Theranos & Elizabeth Holmes. (HBO Documentary The Inventor: Out For Blood) Theranos could be considered a modern science version of a cult. You have this person/leader who is clearly very intelligent (but in a delusional way), sees themselves as a visionary, starts a "game-changing" business, gets a lot of high profile investment and big clients through a series of lies, deceptions and falsehoods. You have very smart people who were suckered in financially and/or left very lucrative positions to be part of what she was building because they believed in it and her.  The fallout comes from whistleblowers, then there are legal threats, a suicide related to the business etc. There are some parallels.  It's not the same thing as a cult, it's a fraudulent business, but at peak they had 800 employees and a huge amount of investment.  I'm sure there were a lot of employees who stayed at the job because they believed in the goal (which is in theory an amazing product) or maybe they suspected things were not legit but they stayed because were getting paid. 

I truly hope that by being a skeptic, critical, self-aware, introverted and not a joiner I'm not as susceptible but if there's someone out there intent on deceiving me and studied in those techniques, they probably could. Maybe that's why I'm into these cult shows. To arm myself with awareness of the techniques used so I can watch out for them. I was into learning about cults before the Landmark experience I mentioned upthread and I know that helped with my flight response from those crazy weirdos.  

 

Comparing Theranos to a cult is interesting. I read the book Bad Blood, and saw a documentary about it, and it did have some of those aspects. But I also remember in the documentary that there was a female professor at Stanford who saw immediately that it was all BS, due to her scientific knowledge in that area, so it's still not the kind of thing where *anyone* could fall for it. However, a lot of otherwise smart people were sucked in (many of whom were famous in other areas and were not scientists, but there were also the scientist/engineers/techs in the company) and a lot of employees went along and didn't quit as the environment became more and more toxic and abusive - they had a big sunk cost and a lot of pressure and I can understand how someone might have taken a job there without knowing what they were getting into and then found it hard to extricate themselves. 

Edited October 22, 2020 by LeGrandElephant

[DanaK]

1 hour ago, mamadrama said:

India had some interesting things to say about Mark Vicente in this article...

https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-socialite-india-oxenberg-escaped-the-nxivm-sex-cult-and-leader-keith-raniere

 

Truly horrible stuff in that interview. I’m glad India took time to heal and get therapy and is doing fairly well now

[mamadrama]

1 minute ago, DanaK said:

Truly horrible stuff in that interview. I’m glad India took time to heal and get therapy and is doing fairly well now

I'm also glad that she's able to have some humor about some of the stuff. She has some good perspective. As annoying as her mom was in the series, she did a good job lining up the mental health people India needed. 

[mamadrama]

The more I read about Mark, the less I like him. 

[Refresh]

7 hours ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

It was actually Flavor-Aid, but I understand!

Ah! I didn't actually now that. Thank you for the correction! Now I have another rabbit hole to go down with why the expression of "drink the X" is as it is. 

[Fleegull]

Mark got sucked into two cults. Who didn't know that Ramtha was a scammer? And apparently given to racist, anti-Semitic tirades.

Before NXIVM and The Vow, Mark Vicente Directed a Truly Bizarre Hit Documentary

[DearEvette]

On 10/20/2020 at 3:15 PM, LeGrandElephant said:

Even so, they should have shown Mark, Bonnie, Sarah, etc, finding out about all the other horrible stuff and reacting (Sarah’s “best friend” held a teenage girl prisoner for two years because she wanted to have sex with someone other than Keith!). 

Yeah, and this is why I mentioned very early on that this show would have benefited mightily from some third party expert contextualizing.  Too much of it, I felt, came from Mark, Bonnie, Sarah they controlled the narrative which was way too personal,  It needed some distance.

By contrast, the first episode of the STARZ documentary, even though it is from India's perspective has no less than 4 expert talking heads that give a lot of context and within the first half hour it gave a much clearer picture of the structure of NXIVM   -- and the pathway between ESP to JNESS   --  and gave a deep dive on how it recruited people than this one did in all 10 episodes.  Also it painted a horrible picture of Keith right out the gate.  No filter.

In hindsight this one feel like it was too concerned with painting a heroic picture of Sarah, Mark , Bonnie than it was in crafting a true 360 degree picture of NXIVM.

 

[Maysie]

1 hour ago, mamadrama said:

I'm also glad that she's able to have some humor about some of the stuff. She has some good perspective. As annoying as her mom was in the series, she did a good job lining up the mental health people India needed. 

She referred to KR as a Teddy Graham! India for the win!

 

[Jextella]

Found this on Twitter

 

[Jextella]

I just don't mind Mark with what I've seen in The Vow and read in various articles. I think it's the Vulture article that talks about some wanting to find meaning.  My sense is that Mark, given what he's said about his upbringing and sensitivity, might not have a solid foundation from which to approach and navigate life. He seems to want someone to tell him what to think and do because he can't do it for himself.

That's my sense, anyway...and based on very limited info. I'd actually like to learn more about his participation.

As to India not having a relationship with him, I feel its sort of a pot-meet-kettle situation. Mark did bad stuff to others, but so did India. It sounds like many in leadership roles did as well.  Perhaps India or some of her friends were recipients of some of Mark's misdeeds and so she sees him as someone who harmed her in retrospect. But, even if that's the case, those she harmed would have the same response to her.

Another thing about Mark is that he started questioning Keith about both the men's group and the women's group before learning of the branding if I'm not mistaken (I could be), but we've seen that for Nippy and the guy from Mexico the act of branding women was the primary turning point.  We don't see them question other aspects of Keith's methods the way Mark does - or at least we're not shown it in the docuseries.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Jextella

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, Jextella said:

As to India not having a relationship with him, I feel its sort of a pot-meet-kettle situation. Mark did bad stuff to others, but so did India. It sounds like many in leadership roles did as well.  Perhaps India or some of her friends were recipients of some of Mark's misdeeds and so she sees him as someone who harmed her in retrospect. But, even if that's the case, those she harmed would have the same response to her.

You know... I agree with this.  And also, Even though Sarah and Mark (maybe not so much Bonnie and Nippy) are glad to be out, there were times when they said something or looked a certain way you get a sorta glimpse of ...something... where you can tell they miss it on some level. And honestly,  I saw this in India as well. 

[MicheleinPhilly]

15 hours ago, mamadrama said:

India had some interesting things to say about Mark Vicente in this article...

https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-socialite-india-oxenberg-escaped-the-nxivm-sex-cult-and-leader-keith-raniere

This article provided more detail than 9 hours of The Vow. Thanks for posting. 

[mamadrama]

11 hours ago, DearEvette said:

You know... I agree with this.  And also, Even though Sarah and Mark (maybe not so much Bonnie and Nippy) are glad to be out, there were times when they said something or looked a certain way you get a sorta glimpse of ...something... where you can tell they miss it on some level. And honestly,  I saw this in India as well. 

I feel this way about all of them. The one person I have nothing but sympathy for is Susan Cone. 

We seem to have an either/or attitude when it comes to people like Mark, Sarah, India, etc. We don't have to, though. It's still possible to dislike someone for their actions towards others while also feeling sympathy for the things they were truly victims of. Just because we're posting critical comments about Mark, Sarah, et al doesn't mean we can't also appreciate the horrible things they went through.  Just because I think Mark did his own amount of damage doesn't mean that I don't feel bad for him or don't think he was victimized. I can be worn out from seeing Sarah's brand while still accepting that she went through something traumatic.

This situation is complicated with multiple perps and victims (sometimes the same person). 

[MicheleinPhilly]

29 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

We seem to have an either/or attitude when it comes to people like Mark, Sarah, India, etc. We don't have to, though. It's still possible to dislike someone for their actions towards others while also feeling sympathy for the things they were truly victims of. Just because we're posting critical comments about Mark, Sarah, et al doesn't mean we can't also appreciate the horrible things they went through.  Just because I think Mark did his own amount of damage doesn't mean that I don't feel bad for him or don't think he was victimized. I can be worn out from seeing Sarah's brand while still accepting that she went through something traumatic.

This is such an interesting point. I've found myself comparing these folks to some of the people that appeared in Leah Remini's series, including Mike Rinder who was WAY high up in Scientology and did some truly dastardly things to people. I wonder what it says about me that I don't have the same level of empathy for some of the people in this group. I mean it's definitely not an either/or attitude for me, but I'm definitely less "forgiving" of the NXIVM group. Maybe I just didn't feel enough remorse from them. 

*shrugs shoulders, books appt. with shrink to discuss* 

[DearEvette]

50 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

We seem to have an either/or attitude when it comes to people like Mark, Sarah, India, etc. We don't have to, though. It's still possible to dislike someone for their actions towards others while also feeling sympathy for the things they were truly victims of. Just because we're posting critical comments about Mark, Sarah, et al doesn't mean we can't also appreciate the horrible things they went through.  Just because I think Mark did his own amount of damage doesn't mean that I don't feel bad for him or don't think he was victimized. I can be worn out from seeing Sarah's brand while still accepting that she went through something traumatic.

True dat.

Also, I think in my case it isn't so much my feelings about them overall, but rather how this particular documentary presented them.  Intellectually I am aware that Sarah, Mark et. al all were victims of Keith.  But otoh, this documentary did a piss poor job of making the outsider viewer understand the depth and breadth of it. Just getting the broad outline of what NXIVM is and seeing the results of all their indoctrination doesn't lend itself to sympathetic viewing.   You are left with the 'how can they not tell they were in a cult for chrissake?'  when we are just presented with a 2 minute snippet of Keith psychobabble or 'who on earth would sleep in a dog bed or why would their spouse think it is ok?'

Outside of the actual content of the doc, the slant plays a huge role in how the information is received.  I can't help but think of the Tiger King on Netflix where so many people came away thinking Joe Exotic was just some dim goof who was railroaded and Carole Baskin is a murderer.  The show slanted their information in such a way to lead the viewer to those conclusions purposely leaving out some information and driving home other information.

And this is why I feel like I have a bit more empathy toward India because her doc is showing us how it happened from jump -- the slow yet insidious way they dig their claws in.  So you don't get just the result where you the viewer are left with a 'how the fuck did you not know?'.  Instead you are along for the ride and see the process.  I mean, I was struck by the scenes of retreat and how 'On' everyone was all the time and the way the cult de-programmer described how  exhaustion and sleep deprivation can be used as behavior modification tools.  And how if everyone around you is doing something you feel the peer pressure to do it too.  Mob mentality is a real thing.

[LeGrandElephant]

18 hours ago, Fleegull said:

Mark got sucked into two cults. Who didn't know that Ramtha was a scammer? And apparently given to racist, anti-Semitic tirades.

Before NXIVM and The Vow, Mark Vicente Directed a Truly Bizarre Hit Documentary

Wow! When they first mentioned his documentary (back in the first episode of the vow?) I googled it and quickly determined it was pseudo-scientific mystical woo, but I did not find out that it was also part of the previous cult he was in! That really adds a whole nother layer. 

In the end, I’m glad I watched The Vow only because it has led me to find out so much more interesting information here and elsewhere online about this fascinating story which they totally botched the telling of. I resent the documentary itself for how badly they have failed to provide context and how full it was of boring repetitive filler when there was so much more to say, but I don’t think I would have found out all this other stuff if I wasn’t watching it, so I can’t fully regret watching it. 

When I heard India was doing another documentary my first instinct was to avoid it but after reading comments here I am considering signing up for a trial of Starz to watch it. But I think I want to wait till its done airing, or at least closer to the end, so I can watching it more quickly. It’s only four episodes, right? 

ETA: Do we know what exactly led Mark to leave the Ramtha cult, and in particular, was he there when she was spouting those extremely racist and anti-Semitic tirades? 

Edited October 23, 2020 by LeGrandElephant

[Maysie]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

Also, I think in my case it isn't so much my feelings about them overall, but rather how this particular documentary presented them.  Intellectually I am aware that Sarah, Mark et. al all were victims of Keith.  But otoh, this documentary did a piss poor job of making the outsider viewer understand the depth and breadth of it. Just getting the broad outline of what NXIVM is and seeing the results of all their indoctrination doesn't lend itself to sympathetic viewing.   You are left with the 'how can they not tell they were in a cult for chrissake?'  when we are just presented with a 2 minute snippet of Keith psychobabble or 'who on earth would sleep in a dog bed or why would their spouse think it is ok?'

Yes, I think for myself, there's a bit of a shooting of the messenger in all of this. I also believe that there's a possibility that Mark, Sarah and the filmmakers were too close to NXIVM to provide us good insight into it. Consider how challenging it can be to teach someone something that is totally new, yet you've done it routinely, repetitively, for months or years. You know the ins and outs, the hows and whys, etc., but when you have to show someone else, you give the abbreviated version of what you think will get the job done, of what you think is important to know. So I think it may be that they were so close to the organization they couldn't understand the questions that outsiders may have (like why is Keith so compelling? how did this organization function?), or they assumed we would inherently get it. Also, their personal feelings and injuries are very important and interesting to them - like that brand is a big damn deal to Sarah so we see and hear about it over and over and over - and there's an assumption that it's the same for everyone. But as someone from the outside trying to look in, the brand isn't the issue. I want to know what led to the brand - what leads an intelligent person to take such a drastic step (and all the drastic steps leading to it)?

So, there's group think in the cult, but there was group think in the documentary, imo. It would have been far better served to have someone totally unconnected to NXIVM make this series because there would have been that outsider to ask the questions we've all been asking and not get so wrapped up in some incredibly personal, but ultimately mostly uninteresting, feelings and stories.

[izabella]

For me, the main problem is that these people are not taking full and unqualified responsibility for the people they hurt in the process.  Even though they are supposedly being open and whatnot, they keep hedging.  Maybe they haven't yet recognized, accepted or admitted to themselves the lies they sold for their own gain, and their abuse of other people physically, mentally, and emotionally.   I hope it comes and they don't just say the words, but really accept their part in all this.  They still talk about how great parts of it are, and minimize the cruelty and nastiness they themselves took part in. 

A written example from that Daily Beast link above about India's story...she is asked about the young girls from Mexico who were in Albany who were "Delegates" and had to run errands for their slave masters or whatever the fuck they called themselves:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-socialite-india-oxenberg-escaped-the-nxivm-sex-cult-and-leader-keith-raniere

Quote

 

DOS was almost like a pyramid scheme of abusive behavior. How have you come to terms with your place in that pyramid, because you had people both above and below you?

For the people that want to talk with me about it—those that I recruited into either NXIVM or DOS—I’ve been really willing to do that. Even if they’re just pissed, and want to say, “How could you do this to me?” I’m willing to share. But a lot of people have been very understanding. They know me, and they know my soul, and they know that I was not there to hurt people. They know I was well-intentioned, even though I did lie and do things that supported the group at other people’s expense. That is a hard thing to deal with. I still struggle with that today.

And you were placed in charge of Delegates. What was that program, exactly?

Keith placed me in charge of that, and it was almost like a janky version of Taskrabbit within the NXIVM community. Because everybody was leaving I didn’t have any work, and I wasn’t able to make any money. So it was basic errand-running and grocery pick-ups and stuff like that. I think I made a couple of hundred bucks.

From what I understand there were a lot of young girls from Mexico in Delegates, who had to perform the tasks.

There were a group of girls who were living within the Albany community who wanted to work, so I worked with them. We would go grocery shopping, clean people’s houses. I kind of managed it but it was all petty cash. It was such a bullshit company that I ended up turning it into a catering company, and I just fed people instead.

 

SHE made a couple hundred bucks.  What about the young girls?  Did they make any money or did you take it all?  She is minimizing their role and what she made them do, and is hiding the unethical and illegal reality of what it was.  Young girls far from home used as slaves..  And India just handwaves that part of it away.

So, that's why I just can't with any of them.  The "heroes" in The Vow deserve credit for breaking away, but they need to hold themselves responsible for the damage they caused to other people.  Their "place in the pyramid" makes them culpable for the same kind of unethical behavior they are pissed about with Allison and Keith and Nancy.  They didn't necessarily leave because they woke up to the ethics of what they were doing to others., although they have said that's the case.  They still aren't fully admitting to that part.  They left because it wasn't beneficial to them to stay.  India left because she found proof that she was being used by Keith and Allison.  Sarah was branded.  Mark was pushed and pulled out of it by Bonnie.  I'm guessing he'd still be there otherwise.  Maybe they will face up to it in time. 

[sistermagpie]

The AV club had an article up about thinking the India documentary was much better, and it seems relevant here because the author felt like The Vow was just too much about the people involved trying to justify themselves. That is, they kept clinging to the idea that there was good there, before it all went wrong. Where as Seduced, according to the writer of this article, just straightforwardly admitted that people joined up because Raniere promised them wealth and power and they looked the other way at stuff that was obviously wrong.

https://tv.avclub.com/in-the-nxivm-docuseries-showdown-seduced-is-the-clear-1845420016?utm_source=AV_Club_Daily_RSS&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2020-10-23

[DanaK]

Keith has been interviewed for an upcoming NBC Dateline episode and there was an excerpt on NBC news 

 

[mamadrama]

9 hours ago, DearEvette said:

True dat.

Also, I think in my case it isn't so much my feelings about them overall, but rather how this particular documentary presented them.  Intellectually I am aware that Sarah, Mark et. al all were victims of Keith.  But otoh, this documentary did a piss poor job of making the outsider viewer understand the depth and breadth of it. Just getting the broad outline of what NXIVM is and seeing the results of all their indoctrination doesn't lend itself to sympathetic viewing.   You are left with the 'how can they not tell they were in a cult for chrissake?'  when we are just presented with a 2 minute snippet of Keith psychobabble or 'who on earth would sleep in a dog bed or why would their spouse think it is ok?'

Outside of the actual content of the doc, the slant plays a huge role in how the information is received.  I can't help but think of the Tiger King on Netflix where so many people came away thinking Joe Exotic was just some dim goof who was railroaded and Carole Baskin is a murderer.  The show slanted their information in such a way to lead the viewer to those conclusions purposely leaving out some information and driving home other information.

And this is why I feel like I have a bit more empathy toward India because her doc is showing us how it happened from jump -- the slow yet insidious way they dig their claws in.  So you don't get just the result where you the viewer are left with a 'how the fuck did you not know?'.  Instead you are along for the ride and see the process.  I mean, I was struck by the scenes of retreat and how 'On' everyone was all the time and the way the cult de-programmer described how  exhaustion and sleep deprivation can be used as behavior modification tools.  And how if everyone around you is doing something you feel the peer pressure to do it too.  Mob mentality is a real thing.

Yes! Agree. Most of my issues are with how they were presented within the documentary series. Seeing the "steps" in India's case is helpful in connecting the dots for her, as opposed to this one that wasn't quite as linear and felt all over the place.

I think these two series should be taken like the Fyre Festival docs-they make good companion pieces.

[FoundTime]

Much of what's been said here about the quality of this documentary as a  documentary would never have needed to be said if Sheila Nevins were still in charge of HBO's documentary unit. It's never been quite the same since she left. She always ensured a high quality of production.

[Maysie]

Although I haven't watched Seduced, the AV Club article did a nice job of summing up many of my issues with The Vow.

The New York Times has an article on KR. I'd link it, but it may require a subscription to read. Highlights:

• He's accused the judge of corruption and has demanded a new trial.
• He's "not sorry for his conduct or his choices" and feels he'll be vindicated.
• He was charged with racketeering, using a statute that previously had been used to dismantle major NY mafia families. He was found guilty of child pornography, forced labor, sex trafficking, identity theft and obstruction of justice.
• Prosecutors are going for a life sentence, though that is typically reserved for cases involving death/murder.
• KR's lawyers say no one was "shot, stabbed, punched, kicked, slapped or even yelled at," and KR should get no more than 15 years.
• There may be a witness (Camila) from Mexico, at his sentencing hearing; KR is accused of taking nude photographs of her when she was 15.
• Some brief history - his dad was an ad executive who traveled a lot and his mom was a professional ballroom dancer. His parents divorced when he was a child. His mother had open heart surgery when he was 13 and KR cared for her throughout high school, where he had no friends. She died after he started college. He started Consumers Buyline in 1990; it was shut down in 1997 and as part of the agreement with the NY attorney general's office, KR was forbidden to operate another multi level marking scheme in the state. He started NXIVM the following year.

There were some other bits, such as the 50+ who wrote letters to the court in support praising him and some of the things they said. It was a dry article, but it had some pretty basic information that The Vow didn't share.

[izabella]

Was ANYONE charged with the kidnapping and imprisonment of a woman FOR TWO YEARS?  Anyone at all?

[DanaK]

1 hour ago, Maysie said:

The New York Times has an article on KR. I'd link it, but it may require a subscription to read.

In case you have a subscription or free articles left, the link https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/26/nyregion/keith-raniere-nxivm.html

[sadie]

I am finding the Seduced series a nice companion piece to this. It explains much better how those at the top (I’m looking at you Mark) made their money. It also exposes the awful misogynistic message Keith had from the get go. In regards to Mark, here’s how I now see it. He knew Keith’s “teachings” were gross and abusive but didn’t mind as long as he was in the “inner circle”. As log as Mark”belonged” and was filling that void within himself to belong to something he went along to get along. BUT When Mark found out about Dos, and that he was in the dark I think was where he all of a sudden got “woke”. KR made no secret about how he thought women were less intelligent, needed to be kept in line (example: the dog bed) and things like incest isn’t bad until society tells the woman it is bullshit that KR preached all along the way. Problem was people like Sarah and Mark were making a lot of money so I believe they looked the other way until they couldn’t (you just got branded girl).
 

I don’t know why The Vow has sugar coated all of this other than to endear us to our central characters (Mark, Sarah). some of the Seduced footage has Bonnie in it and I can see the visible discomfort in her face when KR is spouting shit like making a baby “rapable”. Transversely there is a lot of Mark and he looks about as gunk ho as anyone I’ve ever seen.  I’m baffled by this documentary at this point and their waxing over what made this thing so dangerous. No Mark, it was NEVER a good thing except you finally feeling like you got into the frat you so longed to be part of. Before they do the final edit on Season 2 I’m wondering if they will change the edit now that Seduced is exposing the true ugly under belly of this shit show.

[MicheleinPhilly]

3 minutes ago, sadie said:

I am finding the Seduced series a nice companion piece to this. It explains much better how those at the top (I’m looking at you Mark) made their money. It also exposes the awful misogynistic message Keith had from the get go. In regards to Mark, here’s how I now see it. He knew Keith’s “teachings” were gross and abusive but didn’t mind as long as he was in the “inner circle”. As log as Mark”belonged” and was filling that void within himself to belong to something he went along to get along. BUT When Mark found out about Dos, and that he was in the dark I think was where he all of a sudden got “woke”. KR made no secret about how he thought women were less intelligent, needed to be kept in line (example: the dog bed) and things like incest isn’t bad until society tells the woman it is bullshit that KR preached all along the way. Problem was people like Sarah and Mark were making a lot of money so I believe they looked the other way until they couldn’t (you just got branded girl).
 

I don’t know why The Vow has sugar coated all of this other than to endear us to our central characters (Mark, Sarah). some of the Seduced footage has Bonnie in it and I can see the visible discomfort in her face when KR is spouting shit like making a baby “rapable”. Transversely there is a lot of Mark and he looks about as gunk ho as anyone I’ve ever seen.  I’m baffled by this documentary at this point and their waxing over what made this thing so dangerous. No Mark, it was NEVER a good thing except you finally feeling like you got into the frat you so longed to be part of. Before they do the final edit on Season 2 I’m wondering if they will change the edit now that Seduced is exposing the true ugly under belly of this shit show.

BINGO. I was reading an article earlier today (I can't recall which one because I seek them out like crack at this point) that essentially said that The Vow was designed to inoculate those major players (Mark, Sarah, Bonnie) from any suggestion that they were complicit in KR and AM's criminal behavior. 

Another article referred to them as the "Scooby Gang" which made me cackle. But really, it's not at all funny. Just because you made a preemptive strike to get out before the shit really hit the fan doesn't make you blameless. 

[luckyroll3]

57 minutes ago, sadie said:

some of the Seduced footage has Bonnie in it and I can see the visible discomfort in her face when KR is spouting shit like making a baby “rapable”.

You can clearly see Bonnie's jaw clench in that scene, but the rest of her face remains stoic.

[Fleegull]

7 hours ago, izabella said:

Was ANYONE charged with the kidnapping and imprisonment of a woman FOR TWO YEARS?  Anyone at all?

Lauren Salzman was.

[Tachi Rocinante]

Finally watched Part 9.  Too much artsy-fartsy filmmaking and not enough substance for the subject at hand.

One final takeaway - the biggest evidence (to me) at how much Keith is a fraud was laid out on his whiteboard, where he misspelled the simple words 'stolen' (as "stollen") and 'visible' (as "visable"). Genius my ass.

[DearEvette]

Today is Keith's sentencing and they are currently doing victim impact statements.  This one a snippet of one from one of his victims Camilla:

Quote

 

Camila said she met the lecherous leader at age 13 — and “from the start, I could not feel comfortable around him,’’ but others pushed her toward him.

She and her two older sisters were eventually lured from their home in Mexico to join Raniere’s upstate New York cult — and he eventually allegedly impregnated all three siblings, then forced them to have abortions.

Camila, who is now around 30, said she was a 15-year-old virgin when the then-45-year-old Raniere raped her

 

.I hate how this show talked very little about Keith raping women outside of the shocking snippets of footage where he talks about it.  This doc just seemed to make him some sort of Svengali toward the women in his upper circle and the slant definitely was that he slept (consensually) with these older women.  But between the court transcripts and the Starz doc, it is clear that he actually raped women and under aged young girls as well. 

This also begs the question how did Sarah escape his attention?  By all accounts she was very high up in the infrastructure and there seems to be some indication that women in his high inner circle were sexually involved with him.  Unless she was somehow off limits because she was such a high volume recruiter? 

[calliope1975]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

This also begs the question how did Sarah escape his attention?  By all accounts she was very high up in the infrastructure and there seems to be some indication that women in his high inner circle were sexually involved with him.  Unless she was somehow off limits because she was such a high volume recruiter? 

Were the other women married to other cult members like Sarah is? Maybe it was Anthony Nippy that put off KR, but we'll likely never know. Maybe KR just wasn't interested in Sarah. It is a bit odd though. 

I hope KR gets life. I badly need a win in the 'bad people suffer real consequences for their terribad actions' column. 

With Seduced airing, and these victim impact statements, I'm not sure how the next part of The Vow continues the narrative that Mark, Sarah, et. al. were just gullible rubes who had no idea what horrific things were going on. I wonder if the producers will shift the tone.

 

[sadie]

On 10/26/2020 at 1:04 PM, izabella said:

Was ANYONE charged with the kidnapping and imprisonment of a woman FOR TWO YEARS?  Anyone at all?

Two years ya’ll! TWO YEARS a woman kept another woman in a closet locked up. Two years of waking up every morning, having coffee, trips to Target, watching Netflix, going to the gym, whatever this psycho Lauren did every day for two years while another woman was locked up denied her freedom! It’s so heinous I’m not sure I can fully comprehend it. It truly speaks to how dangerous these people were/are. I hope they all rot in jail for as long as the law allows. From The Color Purple: “ jail you planned for me gonna be the one you rot in” ! 
 

And because I can’t say it enough: no Mark! It was NEVER  a good thing that turned bad.

[Maysie]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

I hate how this show talked very little about Keith raping women outside of the shocking snippets of footage where he talks about it.  This doc just seemed to make him some sort of Svengali toward the women in his upper circle and the slant definitely was that he slept (consensually) with these older women.  But between the court transcripts and the Starz doc, it is clear that he actually raped women and under aged young girls as well. 

This also begs the question how did Sarah escape his attention?  By all accounts she was very high up in the infrastructure and there seems to be some indication that women in his high inner circle were sexually involved with him.  Unless she was somehow off limits because she was such a high volume recruiter? 

I'll tell you, if I relied on The Vow alone for information about NXIVM, I'd have a different view of Keith. I wouldn't like him, for sure. I'd still think he was an asshole who has an overinflated sense of himself and a gift for finding weak personalities to surround himself with and basically take care of him. Did the series ever mention the word "rape" in connection with Keith? Did it ever get into the fact that there was child abuse/rape going on? The more I read about him the more disgusted I become with this series because it comes off as some PR job for the main characters. With all this going on right under their noses - rape, imprisonment, trafficking - I have a really difficult time feeling sorry for Mark, Sarah and even Bonnie.

I understand that right versus wrong can have a lot of grey areas but rape and abuse is never right. And if the main characters of The Vow had any inkling in their deepest hearts that something like that was going on, they're as culpable as the people on trial. I don't think we'll ever really know what was on their radar; if they ever had misgivings, I doubt any of them would admit to it at this point.

I also wonder why Sarah wasn't on KR's radar. She wasn't with Nippy the entire time she was with NXIVM, as far as I could tell (to beat the dead horse, the timeline just wasn't clear about that) so why did Sarah get away unscathed?

[LeGrandElephant]

54 minutes ago, sadie said:

Two years ya’ll! TWO YEARS a woman kept another woman in a closet locked up. Two years of waking up every morning, having coffee, trips to Target, watching Netflix, going to the gym, whatever this psycho Lauren did every day for two years while another woman was locked up denied her freedom! It’s so heinous I’m not sure I can fully comprehend it. It truly speaks to how dangerous these people were/are. I hope they all rot in jail for as long as the law allows. From The Color Purple: “ jail you planned for me gonna be the one you rot in” ! 
 

I still can’t believe these documentary makers showed Sarah being all upset that her “best friend” Lauren talked her into getting giving over collateral and branded, but didn’t even mention that Lauren kept a young woman* imprisoned in a small bare empty room for two years for the crime of wanting to date someone other than Keith, or show Sarah reacting to her “best friend” doing THAT! I sort of assumed that because this documentary was on HBO it would be good quality and trustworthy, but I guess that was naive of me. I’ve been assuming that the documentary team reached out and that victim didn’t want to be interviewed (though now my opinion of them has dropped so much that maybe they didn’t even bother to ask her), but even if she didn’t want to be part of it, how hard would it have been to show Sarah reading the NYT article about that and being shocked and appalled? 

*(technically adult but just barely, and also vulnerable due to being undocumented)

Edited October 27, 2020 by LeGrandElephant