S02.E03: Labyrinth/S02.E04: Gilded Cage

[TexasGal]

Quote

Sara persuades a young nurse to disclose what happens behind closed doors; Kreizler is convinced that hypnosis might unlock the traumatic memories of Señora Linares; Moore introduces Sara to a well-connected friend.

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The team must locate baby Ana; Sara worries about Bitsy Sussman; William Randolph Hearst hosts a lavish ball celebrating his goddaughter's engagement to Moore.

Airdate 07.26.2020

[bosawks]

This show and teeth, shudder.....

[patty1h]

At the end of the 2nd episode tonight, did it look like the red-haired nurse had black teeth?   I was distracted during the show, so did I miss something or does my TV needs adjusting?

[pezgirl7]

2 hours ago, patty1h said:

At the end of the 2nd episode tonight, did it look like the red-haired nurse had black teeth?   I was distracted during the show, so did I miss something or does my TV needs adjusting?

Yes, she had black teeth, apparently from eating charcoal after taking poison. Bitsy remarked on it right before Libby stabbed her with the syringe. I'm a little surprised the show outed the killer so soon. I guess the rest of the episodes will be them trying to track her down and figure out her motivation. I did think Libby had something to do with everything. There was just something off about her.

That engagement party was something else! I definitely felt bad for John. Even though he didn't want to admit it, it must have been embarrassing to have everyone laughing at him like that. I'm glad John stood up for himself with Sara, even if she might have been right. She definitely can come across as a bit condescending. Clearly Violet is jealous of Sara, and she thinks the way to John's heart his through his pants. 

Inviting Sara to the post bachelor party, in that part of town, was pretty ridiculous, and probably never would have happened back then. But I guess it was a plot device so that she could hear Laszlo's speech and realize that she has feelings for John. That was a really nice speech though, and Laszlo hit every adjective for John right on the head.

 

 

Edited July 27, 2020 by pezgirl7

[dramachick]

Libby unraveled rather quickly.

I love the woman alienist set up to match wits with Lazlo. I can't imagine John's fiancee taking a class with that professor. I was surprised to hear she attended college.

I hope they find that baby in time! 😟

[thuganomics85]

I'm sure there will be more twists and turns, but it looks like they've already revealed the killer with this Libby character, I see.  I actually got suspicious in the third episode, since she was so helpful and friendly with Sara at first, which tends to be a red flag these days for shows like this.  But I'm curious to see what her reasons will end up being, and how the team will catch up to her.  And I can still see more people being involved.

Hey, I was wrong and Laszlo actually gave a pretty good toast at the bachelor party!  Good to now that Tipsy Laszlo can actually be quite sociable and the life of the party!

Man, that engagement party was insane.  The best parts were seeing Laszlo and Sara's disgusted reactions to it, because these two have literally been spending their days involved in case with dead babies, and this was what was making them go "What the fuck is going on here?!"

The Sara/John exchange was one of those cases where Sara was accurate and correct about what she was saying, but she is probably the worst person to tell John that, considering their history.  But, really, even if one were to look past their past, the class difference between John and Violet, and how Hearst clearly has no respect for John, this relationship is doomed due to how obvious it is that John doesn't care for Violet's dog.  Sorry, John, that comes with the territory and if you can't accept that, maybe this isn't right for you...

Glad Lucius told Marcus about what Byrnes made him do, but I worry about them still keeping it from everyone else.  Speaking of Byrnes, I'm guessing something is going to come out of him feel disrespected by Hearst and so forth.

Curious to see more of this Karen character played by Lara Pulver.  Rival for Laszlo?  Love interest for him?  Both?!

Close call for Bitsy!

[minamurray78]

The Woman.

Well I hope it works out for laszlo this time around.

That party was bonkers and I thought Sarah was about to make a scene or something, she looked like she had zero shits to give, but that convo with John was rough.

I do wonder what the rest of the season will be about, it can´t all be looking for the baby.

[libgirl2]

I knew Libby was going to be heavily featured when I read articles about the show that mentioned quite a bit. I didn't realize she would be the killer. So she is taking the poison and breastfeeds the babies and thus they die?

6 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Curious to see more of this Karen character played by Lara Pulver.  Rival for Laszlo?  Love interest for him?  Both?!

Close call for Bitsy!

I think she will be a love interest.

I was so worried for Bitsy!

[paigow]

Professor Karen is the 19th century version of Lilith...

[Roxie]

I love Tipsy Lazslo!

After watching both of these episodes, and Perry Mason, in one evening, I think I need to look for some lighter fare for the next few days.

[Robert Lynch]

I am so glad they are tackling on the racism with Spanish people in the 19th Century. Around this time period, the Spanish people were looked upon very much like a sub human species. My mother's family were dealt with a lot of racism in the 50s and even my own mother who went to school in Connecticut was looked upon very badly by students. She recalled growing in Connecticut was so bad that even name calling was pretty prevalent among students of white families. It was something to acknowledge that even when she had her first real job, she experienced the same treatment she did when she was a girl. Pretty sad, but it shows how long our Spanish friends endured this abhorrent behavior for so long. 

[Pachengala]

Episode 3 might be my favorite of the entire series so far. So many good character beats: Laszlo drunkenly beckoning Sarah, John cutting his eyes to her during the toast, Sarah’s struggle with her feelings vs her pride flashing across her face. I just love these actors so much. 
 

That cake scene was, really, as horrific as anything this show has shown us. Yikes. 

[Rosieroo]

13 hours ago, minamurray78 said:

The Woman.

Well I hope it works out for laszlo this time around.

 

I never liked The Woman so I may be already prejudiced against What's Her Name Alienist but I'd be overjoyed for Laszlo to find happiness.  I hope it works too.  

 

 

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Laszlo was  hilarious, he should get tipsy more often.

Anyone else clock Marcus checking out Joanna?

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2020 by MrsRafaelBarba

[pezgirl7]

10 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

I knew Libby was going to be heavily featured when I read articles about the show that mentioned quite a bit. I didn't realize she would be the killer. So she is taking the poison and breastfeeds the babies and thus they die?

I feel dumb that I didn't catch that until you said it! So she took poison, maybe inadvertently passed it along to the baby when she breastfed, and then tried to save the baby by giving it charcoal. When it died, she stole another. There has only been one dead baby so far, right? Hopefully she doesn't make the same mistake again. But I want to know why the hell she's taking poison to begin with, and why a doctor's office even has poison. Maybe it's just a drug used for something else, but you can OD on it? I guess I wasn't paying enough attention to what they said about it.

[Roxie]

I think I'm missing something.  What/who is "The Woman"?

[TexasGal]

33 minutes ago, Roxie said:

I think I'm missing something.  What/who is "The Woman"?

A character from BBC Sherlock, played by the actress who is playing the female alienist.

Did Libby kill the matron just because she hated her, or was there something else going on there?  I am having a hard time devoting full interest to this season even though I am enjoying it.

[Roxie]

Thanks, TexasGal.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

So is John the one in a Gilded Cage?

Edited July 28, 2020 by MrsRafaelBarba

[ferjy]

12 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

So she is taking the poison and breastfeeds the babies and thus they die?

Interesting theory. But why wouldn’t she just poison the babies themselves, why risk harming herself? They weren’t clear on why Libby took the charcoal (why she would be taking poison herself). I can’t quite figure it out. Lordy, when that baby shrieked to choking level just before feeding... {{shudder}} She must be practically starving the babies. 

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by ferjy

[LadyChaos]

1 minute ago, ferjy said:

Interesting theory. But why wouldn’t she just poison the babies themselves, why risk harming herself? They weren’t clear on why Libby took the charcoal (why she would be taking poison herself). I can’t quite figure it out. Lordy, when that baby shrieked to choking level just before feeding... {{shudder}} She must be practically starving the babies. 
 

My guess is she is medicating herself, and forced to give the charcoal to the babies so they don't die from the poison in her breastmilk.

 

So...John is marrying V because his grandmother died and he doesn't want to be alone. He asked Sara, for real this time, to marry him and she still blew him off though she clearly has feelings for him. That conversation between them was brutal, and I think they both were right in saying what they said.

[ferjy]

54 minutes ago, TexasGal said:

A character from BBC Sherlock, played by the actress who is playing the female alienist

But why “The Woman”? Did they (or Sherlock) refer to her that way? She played Irene Adler.

 

[ferjy]

10 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

My guess is she is medicating herself,

Ah, maybe mercury. They used to administer it for STD’s back then. Good ole Osgood may have given her syphillis.

 

[Regalbegal]

6 hours ago, Pachengala said:

That cake scene was, really, as horrific as anything this show has shown us. Yikes. 

And yet something I could easily see happening at a party on the Kardashians or Real Housewives or the like. 

18 hours ago, minamurray78 said:

Well I hope it works out for laszlo this time around.

I am with you, but never too optimistic about anyone being happy for long on this show. 

[cardigirl]

Enjoyed these two episodes much more than the opening two. Plenty of action, and less draggy. Characters really bloomed in these episodes, so I'm looking forward to next week. 

[ferjy]

1 hour ago, TexasGal said:

Did Libby kill the matron just because she hated her, or was there something else going on there?  I am having a hard time devoting full interest to this season even though I am enjoying it.

Good question. I don’t think it’s you, they’re being vague on a lot of matters. It looked like maybe she’s just disturbed  and lost it. Shouldn’t have let Libby in, Matron. Stupid, stupid, stupid!

 

[Morrigan2575]

Did John go broke or get cut off? I thought I remember something from S1 about his dad. He definitely had money last season and, he obviously still has money like Sarah and Laszlo and his friend Oggie.  I can't tell if they haven't explained it or if I missed/forgot it. Unless Hersh and Violet are Nouveau riche while John Moore is "old money"?

John marrying V makes sense to me, He's an adult male or the "marrying" age. It honestly doesn't need to be more than that. He loves Sarah but, she turned him down. So he's settling for someone so that he's not alone

I loved Drunk Laslzo. The last 10-15 minutes from episode 3 were perfect from a character/relationship standing. The female Alienist (props for the Lilith reference up above) has me interested. I don't know if it was just a throw away line but, I wonder if there's more intelligence/depth to V then she let's on. It would be interesting if she's playing a part. Of course she could be nothing more than the shallow person we've seen.

I was so worried about Bitsy, as soon as she went undercover I was afraid she would die. I'm so happy that they saved her. I had a feeling Libby was the killer or at least involved. There was something off about her even when the show had us looking at Colleen and the Matron..

More thoughts, I love how the show continued the theme of Byrnes trying so hard to become one of the elite and getting smacked down. He'll never become one of them, he'll always be "the help"....eat in the kitchen Byrnes. I absolutely hate the character but, it's fascinating to see how he tries to worm his way into society.

Edited July 28, 2020 by Morrigan2575

[pezgirl7]

35 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Did John go broke or get cut off? I thought I remember something from S1 about his dad. He definitely had money last season and, he obviously still has money like Sarah and Laszlo and his friend Oggie.  I can't tell if they haven't explained it or if I missed/forgot it. Unless Hersh and Violet are Nouveau riche while John Moore is "old money"?

I don't think John had that much more money last season compared to this season. He was living with his gran, and I think his dad basically disowned him and therefore probably cut him off financially. He probably doesn't have much saved, but enough to still hang with the upper class. Probably not enough money to furnish Violet with the lifestyle she's used to though. I do wonder where he's living. I would think that his gran would have left her house to him. But a large house requires a large staff, and maybe John can't afford that.

I rewatched the scene where Sara tells Bitsy what drugs to look for, and then I googled it. The drug was used for pain relief and to reduce fever. Its use was discontinued because it was found to have toxic side effects, such as the deprivation of oxygen cells. I also read something really interesting, which might be a spoiler:

Spoiler

"In the 19th century acetanilide was one of a large number of compounds used as experimental photographic developers." Maybe Libby has something to do with that woman who takes photos of dead children. If she grew up around that, it could have messed her up in the head.

 

[tennisgurl]

I thought that Libby was a bit odd, but I didnt suspect her of being the killer, OR finding out four episodes into the season! So I guess we start a search for her and that is where the rest of the season goes? I suspect that there will be more twists and turns, and that there is more to the story. 

I really liked both episodes, they seem to be moving really quickly without being rushed (despite us knowing who the killer is already) and we are already getting a lot of great character work, which is really where this show shines. I just love watching these characters exploring this world. I for sure thought that Laslzo giving a best man speech would be a disaster, but as it turns out, tipsy Laslzo is fun Laslzo, and he actually pulled out a really great speech, that really nailed John and all of his best qualities. 

That party sure was...a lot. I guess the uppercrust has never really heard of irony. That argument between Sara and John was a lot of ouch, especially because nothing they said was technically wrong. Sara is right that this is clearly a bad match, and while we dont know Violet very well, she doesent seem to really appreciate him, isnt even that nice to him or seem to like him as a person all that much, or see what makes him such a great guy (everyone laughing at him and his job, including his fiance, made me feel really bad for him) or seem like a particularly great person, and its pretty clear that he just wanted to marry someone to be married to out of loneliness, even to John, but Sara is probably not the person to tell him that, especially not at his engagement party. I dont think that its purely Sara being jealous or trying to still suppress any romantic feelings she has for John, and that she really does just care about him and wants him to be married to someone who appreciates him, but...there is probably some jealousy there too,or at least regret, and from Johns perspective, its Sara getting on his case and judging him when he is just trying to move on with his life. But yeah, this marriage is an awful idea, I have no idea if this wedding will actually happen. Violet is sure as hell jealous of Sara thats for sure. 

Glad that Bisty is alright, I was worried that she would die to add some drama early on. Now maybe she and Lucius can finally go on a cute after work date or something! I figured that Lucius would spill the beans about him and Byrnes pretty soon, he isnt exactly a master spy, but I hope he tells everyone else soon. 

Byrnes might try to throw his weight around like a big shot and is trying to move up in the world, but Hearst telling him to leave through the kitchen says it all. To the 1%, he will always just be a useful thug. 

I think Laslzo might have a crush! The professor probably had him at "not to be pedantic but..."

[dramachick]

21 hours ago, minamurray78 said:

The Woman.

I didn't recognize her!

Or maybe I did know it was her in my subconscious, and that's why I called her "the woman alienist?" 🤨

Anyhoo, Lara Pulver's cool with me (except for that stint on Spooks-MI5).

[AttackTurtle]

I remember this book creeping the shit out of me.  I honestly like the characters more on the show than I did in the books.   That toast was really beautiful.

For some reason I feel the need to go cuddle my kid close.

[Souris]

3 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Did John go broke or get cut off? I thought I remember something from S1 about his dad. He definitely had money last season and, he obviously still has money like Sarah and Laszlo and his friend Oggie.  I can't tell if they haven't explained it or if I missed/forgot it. Unless Hersh and Violet are Nouveau riche while John Moore is "old money"?

There was the quick scene in the restaurant with Violet and the group earlier where John went to the maitre’d and said he knew he owed them money but was hoping to put the meal on his tab, but then the maitre’d said Violet had already taken care of it. I think John is one of those formerly well-to-do society people who no longer have the money but still have the “name,” so they get by a lot on a shell game of breeding, reputation and credit. And he’s very charming, so that helps.

I am really sucked into this season more than the first. So creepy and involving! Glad to see more of an emphasis on Sara and female characters in general.

Laszlo’s speech to John was shockingly lovely and well-done. And affecting for several of them. Very amused by his encounter with the female alienist! Curious to see if she will be a love interest or a foil.

I have tried very hard not to ship Sara and John, but dang it, they keep trying to reel me in. That was a rough scene, but they both had points. For John’s sake I hope he and Violet do not actually get married. They’re a terrible match. He won’t be drinking water for much longer if they do.

That cake scene was bonkers.

Bitsy needs to work on her questioning. Subtle, she wasn’t.

Edited July 28, 2020 by Souris

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Glad Bitsy survived, Lucius feelings are well beyond a crush.

[paigow]

Is Hearst so cheap that he stopped paying his bouncers after the party started? How did the patient walk right in uninvited?

[Roxie]

23 hours ago, Roxie said:

I love Tipsy Lazslo!

After watching both of these episodes, and Perry Mason, in one evening, I think I need to look for some lighter fare for the next few days.

Oh, and I almost forgot -- on Saturday night I watched the final three episodes of Season 2 of Mr. Mercedes.  Lots of "noir" for one weekend!

[Roxie]

13 hours ago, pezgirl7 said:

I rewatched the scene where Sara tells Bitsy what drugs to look for, and then I googled it. The drug was used for pain relief and to reduce fever. Its use was discontinued because it was found to have toxic side effects, such as the deprivation of oxygen cells. I also read something really interesting, which might be a spoiler:

  Hide contents

"In the 19th century acetanilide was one of a large number of compounds used as experimental photographic developers." Maybe Libby has something to do with that woman who takes photos of dead children. If she grew up around that, it could have messed her up in the head.

This is a possibility.  One of the future episodes is titled, "Memento Mori."

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Roxie

[libgirl2]

15 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

 

More thoughts, I love how the show continued the theme of Byrnes trying so hard to become one of the elite and getting smacked down. He'll never become one of them, he'll always be "the help"....eat in the kitchen Byrnes. I absolutely hate the character but, it's fascinating to see how he tries to worm his way into society.

I liked that too. Try as he might, he will never fit in. 

[minamurray78]

20 hours ago, ferjy said:

But why “The Woman”? Did they (or Sherlock) refer to her that way? She played Irene Adler.

 

That's right. Sherlock called her "the woman" to single her out, cause she was only woman who ever outsmarted him. That´s from way back in the books.

In the BBC series, they often refered to her also as "the woman" in other episodes.

[LadyChaos]

I think John's family has money and status. We know he is estranged from his father, so likely not getting money from him. He was living with his grandmother who likely supplemented his income beyond what an illistrator(now journalist) was at the time. With her death he'd definitely be in financial restraints especially if he is maintained his grandmother's house.

[Morrigan2575]

 

35 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

I think John's family has money and status. We know he is estranged from his father, so likely not getting money from him. He was living with his grandmother who likely supplemented his income beyond what an illistrator(now journalist) was at the time. With her death he'd definitely be in financial restraints especially if he is maintained his grandmother's house.

 When it first popped up I thought maybe it was part of John trying to be a better man. He quit drinking and whoring and is now trying to be a journalist instead of an illustrator. I thought maybe John was living off his earnings instead of family money. 

However, this works too. Maybe he's still on the outside from dad and with his Grandmother gone he doesn't have the family money to fall back on.

[paigow]

32 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

However, this works too. Maybe he's still on the outside from dad and with his Grandmother gone he doesn't have the family money to fall back on.

All they need is a progressive open marriage...Sara marries the obviously smitten Oggie, John marries V and everyone lives next door to each other in Westchester [if that was even a thing back then] hosting Eyes Wide Shut style orgies [they already have masks]

[zoey1996]

2 hours ago, paigow said:

All they need is a progressive open marriage...Sara marries the obviously smitten Oggie, John marries V and everyone lives next door to each other in Westchester [if that was even a thing back then] hosting Eyes Wide Shut style orgies [they already have masks]

Except Sara, who dunked hers in the champagne bucket just before spurned mistress (sorry, don’t recall her name at the moment) turned up seeking revenge? attention? love & support?

What a horrible time in history to be a woman!  Although when hasn’t it been? Getting better, but two steps forward then one step back...

[Souris]

3 hours ago, paigow said:

All they need is a progressive open marriage...Sara marries the obviously smitten Oggie, John marries V and everyone lives next door to each other in Westchester [if that was even a thing back then] hosting Eyes Wide Shut style orgies [they already have masks]

With cake!

[Vermicious Knid]

Sara has a career and her own business only because she's in the 1%, and has the money and privilege.

[ctlady]

Question - can we please have separate threads for each episode, even though they're aired back to back?  We finished Labrynth last night, but couldn't get to Gilded Cage.  I can't peruse comments on Labrynth without getting spoiled with what happens in Gilded Cage

[eejm]

Regarding Sara and the post-bachelor party, I know her being there was unlikely to have happened during that time, but it was one of my most favorite scenes.  Each and every one of the characters there were outsiders for one reason or another.  Sara, John, and Laszlo can play their parts but don’t feel comfortable with their high society peers.  Laszlo is also foreign and Sara a woman, making them even more out of place.  Marcus and Lucius are children of immigrants with unusual names and jobs.  Joanna and Cyrus are limited in society due to their race.  But in that bar, all of these people who have issues with belonging for one reason or another do belong, and they were at their most relaxed.

What were the girls trying to pull out of the cake?  A ring?  A gold coin?

I get the feeling the doctor at the maternity hospital is a firm believer in eugenics.  I think that’s what the “research” that has been discussed is all about and part of the reason why so many of the woman have been sterilized.  The doctor’s conversation with Byrnes solidified if for me.

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by eejm

[Lunula]

I feel like there must be something more to the story since we've already seen, in episode 4, that Libby is a (the?) killer, and she's already taken out another suspect in the matron. 

I'm really disappointed in the Señora Linares story. So...her baby falls on the floor because she's not watching and she's too scared to tell her husband (who seems pretty okay thus far). She takes the baby to "that hospital" because they are discreet - she herself is not medicated, ill, comatose, etc. - yet she somehow blocks out seeing Libby there. Why? She's a normal-looking woman. She isn't overtly doing anything crazy. What the hell was so disturbing that she mentally blocked it and needed to be hypnotized to remember? Are we really suggesting that women back then were so hysterical and fragile that someone who gave them the jeebies at a hospital, who they later saw again at a park (again, where she was not injured, medicated or psychotic) so they completely blocked it, involuntarily, from their memory? Who does that?

I'm calling shenanigans.

[eejm]

4 minutes ago, Lunula said:

I feel like there must be something more to the story since we've already seen, in episode 4, that Libby is a (the?) killer, and she's already taken out another suspect in the matron. 

I'm really disappointed in the Señora Linares story. So...her baby falls on the floor because she's not watching and she's too scared to tell her husband (who seems pretty okay thus far). She takes the baby to "that hospital" because they are discreet - she herself is not medicated, ill, comatose, etc. - yet she somehow blocks out seeing Libby there. Why? She's a normal-looking woman. She isn't overtly doing anything crazy. What the hell was so disturbing that she mentally blocked it and needed to be hypnotized to remember? Are we really suggesting that women back then were so hysterical and fragile that someone who gave them the jeebies at a hospital, who they later saw again at a park (again, where she was not injured, medicated or psychotic) so they completely blocked it, involuntarily, from their memory? Who does that?

I'm calling shenanigans.

I think Señora Liñares might very well have seen something.  Libby was obviously taking charcoal at the hospital, so perhaps other drugs too.  Or Señora Liñares saw Libby do something to one of the mothers or babies that no one else saw.  Obviously Libby isn’t playing with a full deck.

[Tachi Rocinante]

Binged the first season and the first four of the second because I was bombarded with ads while watching Snowpiercer.  I am liking it, but it cribs from other shows and movies (particluarly the visit to the mental ward in S1.).

The only issue I have is Dakota Fanning's over pronounciation of certain words that begin with the letter W - it's a bunch of hwhere, hwhich, and hwhens.  Even if it is "proper", it's annoying because nobody else does it.

Lazlo's foil could be interesting, in a variety of ways.

[Morrigan2575]

5 hours ago, ctlady said:

Question - can we please have separate threads for each episode, even though they're aired back to back?  We finished Labrynth last night, but couldn't get to Gilded Cage.  I can't peruse comments on Labrynth without getting spoiled with what happens in Gilded Cage

Might be a good idea to PM the mod (TexasGal) and ask her, she might not see your post before Sunday.

5 hours ago, eejm said:

What were the girls trying to pull out of the cake?  A ring?  A gold coin?

I believe it was a ring

 

4 hours ago, Lunula said:

I'm really disappointed in the Señora Linares story. So...her baby falls on the floor because she's not watching and she's too scared to tell her husband (who seems pretty okay thus far).

I think there's more too it and, that will be revealed over the next 6 episodes