S01.E03: Chapter Three

[Door County Cherry]

Airs July 5, 2020

Quote

 

In order to gain an advantage over E.B. and team, wily district attorney Maynard Barnes (Stephen Root) goes public with a shocking new development. Mason (Matthew Rhys) and Strickland (Shea Whigham) get unauthorized access to physical evidence with help from Virgil (Jefferson Mays), Mason's connect at the city morgue. Later, Mason attempts to extract information from a withholding Drake (Chris Chalk), who's weary of Holcomb (Eric Lange) and Ennis' (Andrew Howard) watchful eyes. Della (Juliet Rylance) notices a change in E.B. (John Lithgow), who seems uncharacteristically out of sorts.

Written by Rolin Jones & Ron Fitzgerald; directed by Tim Van Patten.

 

 

[Annber03]

"I'm going to resurrect him." Uhhhh, okay... O_o. That little episode Sister Alice had at the end there was unsettling.

I love her interactions with Emily, though. The scene with them in the jail cell was so good. Emily may be continuing to blame herself, which is an understandable reaction, heartbreaking though it is to see, but I'm glad she's got someone in her corner. 

I also love Della and Lupe. They're just plain cool and take no shit :D. 

I'm hoping there's not something more serious wrong with E.B. :(. 

[thuganomics85]

After coming off more villainous in the previews, I'm definitely surprised that it seems more and more likely that Sister Alice is actually sincere with her beliefs and wanting to help Emily.  Now, granted it certainly seems like there is something big going on with her, between whatever medicine they're putting her on and her sudden revelation that she is going to "resurrect" Charlie.  But right now, I'm more suspicious about "Mother" and her ilk, and think Sister Alice could actually end up being an ally of some sort, when it is all said and done.

Yikes, I know it's the 1930s and all, so obviously there are going to be a lot of dated views and language here, but hearing Perry drop the N-word was a bit of a shock.  I know he was mainly doing it do get a rise out of Drake, but that was not pleasant.  Of course, they made sure that exchange ended with Drake dropping him like nothing.  But it looks like Drake is now going to secretly pass information to him, so I'm curious to see how this plays out.  I hope nothing happens to him or his wife.

E.B. definitely seemed off of his game here, but judging from that blood in the sink, it seems like some kind of health issues are going on.

Still loving Della.

Pete continues to be hilarious.  Shea Whigham really excels at playing characters who are kind of scumbags, but I kind of love them anyway.

I kind of wanted to hear the end of Virgil/the coroner's story.

Maynard Barnes might be right behind Jimmy McGill/Saul Goodman as someone who is such a sleazy, scummy lawyer, but I kind of admire how he can put on a show and play the game.  Stephen Root is having a ball with this role.

The church's "performances" might rival the ones from The Righteous Gemstones, when it comes to over-the-top theatrics.  Love it!

 

[sistermagpie]

Della and Sister Alice were both great tonight. Lupe too, but the other two seemed to be more personally revealing themselves. I didn't know what to expect from Sister Alice, but this wasn't it. I wound up really liking her by the end of the episode. I like how she was amused by Perry as well, and that he couldn't shake her.

I seem to remember some criticism about the good guys not ever being racist in these period pieces. Even if Perry was trying to get a rise out of Paul, that was still pretty racist, 1932-Perry Mason, so good (or bad) on you!

EB definitely seems to be losing it. Is this what is going to give Perry another push to become a defense attorney? Della is probably already very aware of his issues and Perry clearly was here too. They're like a brother and sister who don't want to really talk about what's wrong with Dad.

Pete continues to be great. Loved Perry setting his paper on fire. Also I liked Matthew's defending his mother to his father. A history of women being judged harshly for doing exactly what the man did without anybody blinking seemed to be a big subtext for a lot of people--interesting to watch right before "I'll Be Gone in the Dark" the documentary about the East Area Rapist, including 1970s scolding about "inviting behavior" that gets women raped. I don't know anything about previous Perry Masons but I love the idea that all these people who want to help the accused feel no better than them because they have their own things they're guilty about but are trying.

[Vella]

Della reading Perry for filth was fantastic, she did not hold back. I also love how she stormed into the jail cell to rescue Emily and used her own power, however limited she knew it might be, to stop the interrogation.

Lupe is back! I was worried she was just a one off, but I love her confidence and even when she was annoyed Perry was working, she still did her own thing without much fuss.  They have such a relaxed connection and Perry genuinely smiling when she won at the table? Adorable.

EB worries me.  The confusion over the drop of blood in the sink and how he continues to be so easily rattled by anything and seems thoroughly out of step with what's going on. It's a stark contrast from the measured, assured man we met in the pilot.  I get anxious for him every time he's on screen now.

Love Drake being tied into the case, you know Perry's going to go back to him for more help.  Pete's great comic relief, his freakout over Perry setting his newspaper on fire was too funny.

Despite the pageantry, Alice seems so genuine in her beliefs, especially with Emily. I loved their scene in the jail, I'm guessing that she too understands the pain of being undone and betrayed by men.

[LoveLeigh]

Is Sister Alice supposed to be modeled after Aimee Semple McPherson? Lili Taylor is unrecognizable in this. 

I love the episodes. This is the first series in a long time where I have been more interested in the journey than in the resolution. It is pretty obvious to me how this crime went down. But I love the episodes and the whole feeling in each episode. The sets are remarkable. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by DakotaLavender

[scrb]

1 hour ago, thuganomics85 said:

 

Yikes, I know it's the 1930s and all, so obviously there are going to be a lot of dated views and language here, but hearing Perry drop the N-word was a bit of a shock.  I know he was mainly doing it do get a rise out of Drake, but that was not pleasant.  Of course, they made sure that exchange ended with Drake dropping him like nothing.  But it looks like Drake is now going to secretly pass information to him, so I'm curious to see how this plays out.  I hope nothing happens to him or his wife.

Not only that, Drake says the badge could let him kill Perry right then and there and get away with it.

Would that scene, not just the slur but the threat, have been written after George Floyd and the protests, the general awakening we've had of racial issues?

 

I'm not sure a black cop would get away with killing a white man in 1930s LA.  Nor that cops are that well-paid in the Depression era, which Clara makes a big deal about, how he shouldn't oppose the LAPD establishment.

Certainly what Drake did and will do goes against his family's interests.  Risking a job in this period would be highly unusual, no matter his sense of right and wrong.

So we see a black cop pursing justice against corrupt fellow police officers, kind of like the black cop in The Watchmen.

Della saved the day to rescue Emily as those cops were about to torture her.  But would her catching them in the act be sufficient?  Why wouldn't she be in danger?  Those cops murder and torture, are corrupt to the hilt.  Seems like she'd have to be streaming it live from a 2020 smart phone.

 

Some of the profanity in the dialogue seems out of place for the period.  Not saying they didn't throw around the f-bomb but maybe it's more  modern writers not bothering to try to render vulgar speech back then.  The way Baggerly speaks seems more appropriate to the period.  For instance, he blamed his youthful mistakes on "degenerate femininity" rather than calling the mother of his illegitimate son a whore or something else crude, the way Pete and other characters swear up a storm.

Of course Baggerly is suppose to be religious and consciously trying to avoid vulgar language.

Some other character referred to a female character as "gash" which may be something they might have said back then.  But the overt crudeness isn't something that you associate with a period so long ago, only because even within our lifetime, casual swearing has increased over time.

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

1 hour ago, Vella said:

Della reading Perry for filth was fantastic, she did not hold back. I also love how she stormed into the jail cell to rescue Emily and used her own power, however limited she knew it might be, to stop the interrogation.

Remember that before three key SCOTUS decisions in the 1960s (Gideon v Wainwright, Escobedo v Illinois and Miranda v Arizona), the cops could lock you in a room without your attorney for hours and just wear you down until you confessed. They could also try and get you to confess by pretending to be after someone else and getting you to incriminate yourself.

1 hour ago, DakotaLavender said:

Is Sister Alice supposed to be modeled after Aimee Semple McPherson?

I assume so. The church she founded is still around and HBO has no desire to be sued.

[shapeshifter]

I was annoyed/surprised that the leaders of the congregation and Sister Alice's mother didn’t just start exclaiming “Praise the Lord! Sister Alice has been slain in the spirit!” Did they not research Pentecostal congregations' practices? Or did they just deliberately go in a different direction? 

Sister Alice heard voices before what looked like an epileptic seizure, but maybe the “vitamins” cause hallucinations? I’m neither familiar with neurological treatments of that era nor familiar with actual symptoms of such conditions. 

 

**********

 

9 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I'm hoping there's not something more serious wrong with E.B

Looked like EB was wearing the red shirt of heart failure or cancer or something. Was radiation used to treat cancer in the 30s? That would cause bleeding gums, wouldn’t it? 🙁 
Does it mean anything that in the end credits it read “with” Lithgow? And Maslany too?

***********

 

9 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

But it looks like Drake is now going to secretly pass information to him, so I'm curious to see how this plays out.  I hope nothing happens to him or his wife.

In the old  B&W TV series version of Perry Mason 

Spoiler

Drake works as a PI and muscle for Perry and I don’t think has a wife.

Edited July 6, 2020 by shapeshifter
editing in the light of day

[Guest]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

Does it mean anything that in the end credits it read “with” Lithgow? And Maslany too?

 

It’s generally done when the biggest names are not the lead. They can’t get top billing because that’s taken by Matthew Rhys so instead they get special billing at the end. It’s something agents negotiate for as special recognition. Sometimes it’s just a way to placate an actor. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Guest

[cardigirl]

6 hours ago, scrb said:

Not only that, Drake says the badge could let him kill Perry right then and there and get away with it.

Would that scene, not just the slur but the threat, have been written after George Floyd and the protests, the general awakening we've had of racial issues?

Is it historical?

I thought the scene was well written and well played. This is set in the early 1930s, not 2020.

Edited July 6, 2020 by cardigirl

[Enigma X]

I did not take Perry using the"N" word as a slur he thought but him (in poor taste) trying to convince Drake that is what the white cops think of Drake.

[shapeshifter]

56 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

I did not take Perry using the"N" word as a slur he thought but him (in poor taste) trying to convince Drake that is what the white cops think of Drake.

Yes, that's how I took it too. Perry didn't use the n-word to address Drake.

[paigow]

7 hours ago, scrb said:

Would that scene, not just the slur but the threat, have been written after George Floyd and the protests, the general awakening we've had of racial issues?

Definitely not. The entire season was released to critics weeks ago...which means everything was finished before the studios were locked down. 

[cardigirl]

11 minutes ago, paigow said:

Definitely not. The entire season was released to critics weeks ago...which means everything was finished before the studios were locked down. 

Why not? Excuse me, but are we going to go into a world of censoring? What I am taking from this discussion is that these themes cannot ever be addressed in historical context again?  

[edhopper]

I've seen people complaining that they turned Perry into just another noir PI, but I think how this season will go is

We were told that Perry is also a lawyer, so at some point in the season EB will either die or be off the case and in the hospital. Perry will take over the legal case as Emily's defense. And by season's end we will have Perry as a Defense Attorney, Della as his secretary and eventual Paul Drake will leave the force (or be fired) and will become Perry's investigator.

Edited July 6, 2020 by edhopper

[izabella]

8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I was annoyed/surprised that the leaders of the congregation and Sister Alice's mother didn’t just start exclaiming “Praise the Lord! Sister Alice has been slain in the spirit!” Did they not research Pentecostal congregations' practices? Or did they just deliberately go in a different direction? 

Sister Alice heard voices before what looked like an epileptic seizure, but maybe the “vitamins” cause hallucinations? I’m neither familiar with neurological treatments of that era nor familiar with actual symptoms of such conditions. 

I confess, I had zero understanding of what happened in that scene, other than she seemed like she was having some kind of seizure.  I was sure she was dead.  Was she supposed to be dead when they showed her floating in the boat, unblinking? 

[DoubleUTeeEff]

11 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I kind of wanted to hear the end of Virgil/the coroner's story.

Strictly speaking, we did hear the end of it. "Never would have caught him if it weren't for the mayonnaise." What we missed was the middle of the story! 😉 That and Perry setting Pete's paper on fire made me laugh out loud. I appreciate that so much in a show this dark. A little levity really helps.

I really enjoyed Sister Alice and Emily's conversation at the jail as well until the end when Sister Alice said she was going to resurrect Charlie. That is not going to be good for Emily unless Alice means something different than actually resurrect from the dead. Alice's mother has got to be up to no good. Alice told Emily that "mother was there," which makes it sound like at best she was no help at all, (maybe she didn't protect Alice from someone?) and at worst she was pretty terrible to Alice.

1 hour ago, izabella said:

I confess, I had zero understanding of what happened in that scene, other than she seemed like she was having some kind of seizure.  I was sure she was dead.  Was she supposed to be dead when they showed her floating in the boat, unblinking?

All I got from the scene was she heard voices, had a seizure and thought she was talking to god. I didn't even consider death, but probably because I assumed she would still be in the show. I'm sure floating in the boat was a metaphor for something.

[shapeshifter]

33 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I really enjoyed Sister Alice and Emily's conversation at the jail as well until the end when Sister Alice said she was going to resurrect Charlie. That is not going to be good for Emily unless Alice means something different than actually resurrect from the dead.

FWIW: My mind immediately jumped to "resurrecting Charlie" meaning Emily was going to get back together with her husband, get pregnant, and name that baby Charlie too. 
 

 

***********************

 

2 hours ago, izabella said:

10 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I was annoyed/surprised that the leaders of the congregation and Sister Alice's mother didn’t just start exclaiming “Praise the Lord! Sister Alice has been slain in the spirit!” Did they not research Pentecostal congregations' practices? Or did they just deliberately go in a different direction? 

Sister Alice heard voices before what looked like an epileptic seizure, but maybe the “vitamins” cause hallucinations? I’m neither familiar with neurological treatments of that era nor familiar with actual symptoms of such conditions. 

I confess, I had zero understanding of what happened in that scene, other than she seemed like she was having some kind of seizure.  I was sure she was dead.  Was she supposed to be dead when they showed her floating in the boat, unblinking? 

"Confession is good for the soul," Sister @izabella Hee 😉 

 

 

[TexasGal]

13 hours ago, Vella said:

Della reading Perry for filth was fantastic, she did not hold back. I also love how she stormed into the jail cell to rescue Emily and used her own power, however limited she knew it might be, to stop the interrogation.

 

Della is awesome!  I love that she charged into the jail, but not gonna lie I was worried something might happen to her too.  That cop has no qualms.

[cardigirl]

A bit shallow, but, um, I definitely wouldn't mind being kissed by Perry.  😉

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, scrb said:

Not only that, Drake says the badge could let him kill Perry right then and there and get away with it.

Would that scene, not just the slur but the threat, have been written after George Floyd and the protests, the general awakening we've had of racial issues?

I don't understand why those scenes would be less likely to be written now. Unlike so many cop shows on TV, this show is sensitive to the problem. The fact that the show was finished long ago really just proves it's been going on long before some people were aware it. It's those many other shows that are maybe rethinking their premise that the police are always right and we should cheer them on as they break laws and ignore peoples' rights because the law just keeps them from getting the bad guys and the prosecutor is the good guy.

11 hours ago, scrb said:

 

I'm not sure a black cop would get away with killing a white man in 1930s LA.  Nor that cops are that well-paid in the Depression era, which Clara makes a big deal about, how he shouldn't oppose the LAPD establishment.

YMMV but I've no doubt that he could get away with it. We already know the cops don't like Perry and they're the ones who get to choose whether to protect Drake as a policeman or throw him under the bus as a black man. It's much more in their interest to protect him as a cop, no matter how racist they are to him themselves.

 

5 hours ago, Enigma X said:

I did not take Perry using the"N" word as a slur he thought but him (in poor taste) trying to convince Drake that is what the white cops think of Drake.

 

4 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Yes, that's how I took it too. Perry didn't use the n-word to address Drake.

The word is a slur no matter what context he was using it in. Clearly Perry wasn't meaning to call Drake that himself. He was accurately describing what Drake was doing--playing dumb to placate the white power structure he was in. There was more respect in what Perry was saying than in anything the other guys were saying even without a slur, because Perry was saying he recognized Drake as a good detective.

But still, he can't choose to use the word without emphasizing that he's white and Perry is black, and he was using the word to taunt him. If Perry was black himself the line would mean the same thing but land differently. The word couldn't be neutral coming out of Perry's mouth. It's not even like they have any relationship for context, they just met and Perry's dropping the N-word on him! Good dramatic choice to have Drake beat him up for it to even things up. It let Drake's change of heart feel more about his disappointment in himself than taking Perry's taunt to heart.

[paigow]

How far is that casino from L.A. ??? Perry had to fly there...How does everybody else get there?

[Enigma X]

@sistermagpie, I don't disagree that Perry should not have used it but I don't think he was saying that is what he felt about Drake. I mean at this point maybe Perry does feel that way but I, as a viewer, don't know either way.

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

@sistermagpie, I don't disagree that Perry should not have used it but I don't think he was saying that is what he felt about Drake. I mean at this point maybe Perry does feel that way but I, as a viewer, don't know either way.

I agree! I just meant the scene was showing racism, not that we were supposed to think Perry thought of Paul as an N-word. He seemed to have more respect for his intelligence than any other policeman he'd met and was frustrated that he was submitting to the bad cops. I think his use of the world was saying something more about the comfort of white society with the word at that time than meaning to suggest Perry himself had any personal issue about race that he was expressing by using the word. He still was taking the word more seriously than the original books did, apparently, according to the threat about other versions where Della can casually drop the word as part of a cutesy metaphor. (That's also reflected, imo, in how the racist cops don't just use the word because the current audience would react to it more while not reacting to somebody saying fuck.)

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, TexasGal said:

Della is awesome!  I love that she charged into the jail, but not gonna lie I was worried something might happen to her too.  That cop has no qualms.

Della succeeding in stopping Emily's abuse by the corrupt cops in the jail did not ring true to me. I liked seeing it and was relieved that she succeeded, but it was the one unrealistic bit for me.

[tennisgurl]

After being set up as a somewhat sinister figure, it seems like Sister Alice may be more on the up and up than she appeared to be. At least, she does seem very sincere in her beliefs and desire to do good, and is one of the only people still sticking up for Emily. Her back and fourths with Perry are a lot of fun too, he just cant get under her skin no matter how much he tries. Her mom on the other hand? Dont trust her at all. That seizure/vision has me concerned though, what exactly does she mean by she will "resurrect" Charlie? Their church does sure go hard on the pageantry doesn't it?! Those are some impressive production values they have going on for their big play/sermon! 

Della really is just kicking ass and taking names all over the place, especially with those cops clearly trying to beat a confession out of Emily. Everyone in the DAs office seem to be totally throwing everything at Emily being guilty, especially in the press, they have obviously decided that she did it and wont hear anything else. With one of the cops being involved with the kidnapping, it makes me wonder if there is a bigger cover up here that goes beyond just the city wanting to close the case quickly so they can chalk all of this up as a win for them. 

So now even after being intimidated by creepy detective guy, Paul cant just look the other way when it comes to an innocent persons life, so now it seems like he and Perry are going to be teaming up, with Paul giving Perry some info to help him keep investigating, as its clear that he isn't going to give up. 

Lupe is back! She seems like such a chill, fun person, and she and Perry actually seem like a pretty good match. He actually seems lighter and happier around her, he actually smiles for real, and not the sort of sardonic smirk he normally wears.  

Something seems to be very wrong with EB, I am quite concerned. Della and Perry both seem to realize that something is up with him, but dont really know how to approach it or if they should. I kind of wonder if 

Spoiler

he has some kind of sickness, and he will die and Perry will take his practice over with his blessing, with Della staying on and Paul, being disenchanted with the LAPD, decides to become his PI on staff. I hope not though, I hope that he can just have a nice retirement and pass the practice along to Perry with him being his sometimes mentor. 

George and Emily have found the absolute worse time to have all of their marital problems come out into the open and have to deal with them. I liked when George defended his mother after his father made that stupid comment about their bloodline falling for "feminine deviancy" or whatever. I dont think that Georges father was necessarily involved in the kidnapping, but I think that he is going to be some part in figuring out who was pulling the strings. 

[shapeshifter]

3 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Everyone in the DAs office seem to be totally throwing everything at Emily being guilty, especially in the press, they have obviously decided that she did it and wont hear anything else. With one of the cops being involved with the kidnapping, it makes me wonder if there is a bigger cover up here that goes beyond just the city wanting to close the case quickly so they can chalk all of this up as a win for them. 

Yes, I don't know if any of those interrogating Emily or Stephen Root's character (Maynard Barnes) think Emily actually did it, but she is a handy scapegoat now that her affair is public knowledge, and because she's a woman and so has less respect and power or resources to defend herself.

[Chicago Redshirt]

14 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

This is the first series in a long time where I have been more interested in the journey than in the resolution. It is pretty obvious to me how this crime went down. But I love the episodes and the whole feeling in each episode. The sets are remarkable. 

Very curious if you want to say behind spoilers what you think happened behind the underlying crime.

13 hours ago, scrb said:

Not only that, Drake says the badge could let him kill Perry right then and there and get away with it.

Would that scene, not just the slur but the threat, have been written after George Floyd and the protests, the general awakening we've had of racial issues?

 

I'm not sure a black cop would get away with killing a white man in 1930s LA.  Nor that cops are that well-paid in the Depression era, which Clara makes a big deal about, how he shouldn't oppose the LAPD establishment.

Certainly what Drake did and will do goes against his family's interests.  Risking a job in this period would be highly unusual, no matter his sense of right and wrong.

So we see a black cop pursing justice against corrupt fellow police officers, kind of like the black cop in The Watchmen.

Della saved the day to rescue Emily as those cops were about to torture her.  But would her catching them in the act be sufficient?  Why wouldn't she be in danger?  Those cops murder and torture, are corrupt to the hilt.  Seems like she'd have to be streaming it live from a 2020 smart phone.

 

Some of the profanity in the dialogue seems out of place for the period.  Not saying they didn't throw around the f-bomb but maybe it's more  modern writers not bothering to try to render vulgar speech back then.  The way Baggerly speaks seems more appropriate to the period.  For instance, he blamed his youthful mistakes on "degenerate femininity" rather than calling the mother of his illegitimate son a whore or something else crude, the way Pete and other characters swear up a storm.

Of course Baggerly is suppose to be religious and consciously trying to avoid vulgar language.

Some other character referred to a female character as "gash" which may be something they might have said back then.  But the overt crudeness isn't something that you associate with a period so long ago, only because even within our lifetime, casual swearing has increased over time.

I think context is everything. A black cop killing a white guy who is actively hated by white cops killed in a black neighborhood with only black witnesses? No doubt in my mind that Drake would get away with it. Killing him downtown with white witnesses to testify to it being a straight-up execution? Not so much.

I have no doubt that we will continue to see such scenes going forward in cop fiction. In fact, we probably will see more of them. I'm trying to think of the last noted portrayal of a lead character who was an abusive/crooked/selfish cop. And although I don't watch a ton of crime TV, I'm thinking that we'd have to go back to The Shield. I'm guessing there is going to be more of an appetite for stories where the cops are villains or at least anti-heroes.

It will be interesting to see more about why Drake did what he did and how he and others around him cope as he inevitably suffers the consequences. 

In Watchmen, I think it's fair to say that most of the cops were not portrayed as corrupt at least in the sense of being complicit with criminals. There was only one AFAIK who was, and the lead didn't fight against him directly.

Re: Della catching the cops in the act, it seems unlikely that the cops would take it to the next level of attacking her physically. And they are going to have to explain that Emily is bruised and that there was not the matron who was supposed to be standing watch over her 24-7. They can spin that they were trying to save Emily during a suicide attempt/other outburst, but they don't really have a readily believable explanation for doing something to Della.  

44 minutes ago, paigow said:

How far is that casino from L.A. ??? Perry had to fly there...How does everybody else get there?

I think that they said some Mexican town.

[Chicago Redshirt]

8 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Yes, I don't know if any of those interrogating Emily or Stephen Root's character (Maynard Barnes) think Emily actually did it, but she is a handy scapegoat now that her affair is public knowledge, and because she's a woman and so has less respect and power or resources to defend herself.

In fairness, she has means, motive and opportunity like few others AND she is romantically linked with one of the involved kidnappers. 

That is one of the things that the show does have in common with the 50s series: a suspect who makes all the objective sense in the world to assume is guilty. We will see if by the end there is the other signature moment: Perry extracting a public confession from the actual guilty party.

One of the standard features of the 50s show is that the murder victim basically had it coming. They were usually awful people ranging from con men to blackmailers to abusive husbands, and so that is one departure. There's no question that Charlie is an innocent.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Chicago Redshirt

[shapeshifter]

22 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

We will see if by the end there is the other signature moment: Perry extracting a public confession from the actual guilty party.

Ooo, I think I would love the nostalgia of that outcome!

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Very curious if you want to say behind spoilers what you think happened behind the underlying crime.

Mods can correct me if I'm wrong, but speculation about what we think happened shouldn't be under spoilers at all. It's only a spoiler if you're saying something you know for a fact will happen that hasn't happened yet, either because you've seen the episode or read something about.

 

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Re: Della catching the cops in the act, it seems unlikely that the cops would take it to the next level of attacking her physically. And they are going to have to explain that Emily is bruised and that there was not the matron who was supposed to be standing watch over her 24-7. They can spin that they were trying to save Emily during a suicide attempt/other outburst, but they don't really have a readily believable explanation for doing something to Della.  

Yeah, I can buy especially based on movies and tv at the time that it would be normal for them to stop when a "respectable woman" walked in, especially one with the connections to the defense attorney that Della had. They already had made a deal where there was supposed to be somebody watching her at all times and they didn't want to advertise that they'd broken it even if they were going to deny it.

[MrWhyt]

4 hours ago, paigow said:

How far is that casino from L.A. ??? Perry had to fly there...How does everybody else get there?

Cars. I don't think Perry had to fly there, I doubt Lupe would agree to a fancy date if he offered his dairy truck as transportation.

Edited July 6, 2020 by MrWhyt

[bosawks]

The actor who plays Detective Ennis is really good at conveying menace.

 I’m nervous every time he’s on screen.

[LoveLeigh]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Very curious if you want to say behind spoilers what you think happened behind the underlying crime.

I put it in the spoilers thread. Look over there. 

[Auntie Anxiety]

16 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Looked like EB was wearing the red shirt of heart failure or cancer or something. Was radiation used to treat cancer in the 30s? That would cause bleeding gums, wouldn’t it? 

A blood cancer (like leukemia) would cause bleeding because you don’t have the platelets to clot blood. But it could also be lung or throat, or stomach cancer. Maybe TB? Wasn’t that what cause of death in Moulin Rouge? Whatever it is, I’ve watched enough tv to know that E.B. will meet his demise sometime this season. Chekhov’s gun.

WRT the seizures, one of my dogs had seizures every so often. Didn’t know exactly when one was going to occur, but a few seconds before one, she’d get a strange look on her face or a strange body movement. It’s like a lightning storm coming on in your brain.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Auntie Anxiety

[paigow]

If the casino is in Mexico, that is a long ass commute for George...no wonder he quit. Not like San Diego to Tijuana

[LoveLeigh]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Mods can correct me if I'm wrong, but speculation about what we think happened shouldn't be under spoilers at all. It's only a spoiler if you're saying something you know for a fact will happen that hasn't happened yet, either because you've seen the episode or read something about.

There is a separate thread for our speculation for Perry Mason. It is called "spoilers" but also includes speculations. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by DakotaLavender

[Guest]

3 hours ago, paigow said:

How far is that casino from L.A. ??? Perry had to fly there...How does everybody else get there?

Based on what they showed it’s probably supposed to be near Palm Springs. The timeline is a little off but it’s the most likely option close in LA and in the desert. It would be an easy drive. 

[Door County Cherry]

 

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I think context is everything. A black cop killing a white guy who is actively hated by white cops killed in a black neighborhood with only black witnesses? No doubt in my mind that Drake would get away with it. Killing him downtown with white witnesses to testify to it being a straight-up execution? Not so much.

Yeah.  Paul is considered low in the hierarchy of police officers but just being a part of that "brotherhood" is likely to get him some protection. He'd be the person they'll sacrifice if a sacrificial lamb is needed but they'd probably look the way if he killed Perry. 

18 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

I love the episodes. This is the first series in a long time where I have been more interested in the journey than in the resolution. It is pretty obvious to me how this crime went down. But I love the episodes and the whole feeling in each episode. The sets are remarkable. 

I'm pretty much the same way.  I know some critics didn't really enjoy the mystery aspect of the show but, as much as I like a good mystery, the true joy for me is how well these characters already work off of one another. 

 

[Door County Cherry]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Mods can correct me if I'm wrong, but speculation about what we think happened shouldn't be under spoilers at all. It's only a spoiler if you're saying something you know for a fact will happen that hasn't happened yet, either because you've seen the episode or read something about.

In general, spoiler tags need to be on spoilers.  They don't need to be on speculation, 

 However, in general, extra caution is fine as as long as tags aren't being applied to things that have already happened or the thread isn't weighed down with spoiler tags.  

24 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

There is a separate thread for our speculation for Perry Mason. It is called "spoilers" but also includes speculations. 

True but since people might not want to speculate with spoilers, I've created a no-spoiler speculation thread.  We'll use @Chicago Redshirt's thread since there's more content.     

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

In general, spoiler tags need to be on spoilers.  They don't need to be on speculation, 

 However, in general, extra caution is fine as as long as tags aren't being applied to things that have already happened or the thread isn't weighed down with spoiler tags.  

True but since people might not want to speculate with spoilers, I've created a no-spoiler speculation thread.  

I was off doing the same thing!

Can you merge mine into yours or vice versa?

[Door County Cherry]

Just now, Chicago Redshirt said:

I was off doing the same thing!

Can you merge mine into yours or vice versa?

I saw that after I posted in here.  We'll just use yours since it has more content and a  cleaner title.  I'll get rid of mine.  No problem. 

[Netfoot]

20 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

kind of wanted to hear the end of Virgil/the coroner's story.

"The would never have caught him, if it weren't for the mayonnaise !"

20 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

EB definitely seems to be losing it. Is this what is going to give Perry another push to become a defense attorney?

It's been 14 years since the Great War. Perry has had plenty of time to have already gone to law school. There are people who have gone to law school who choose not to practice for one reason or another. Right?

18 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Was radiation used to treat cancer in the 30s?

Radiation? I'd have guessed leeches.

 

[howiveaddict]

Regarding if EB had radiation treatment

:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_radiation_therapy

 

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

There is a separate thread for our speculation for Perry Mason. It is called "spoilers" but also includes speculations. 

Thanks! I misunderstood and thought "under spoilers" meant under a spoiler tag.

[shapeshifter]

42 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Thanks! I misunderstood and thought "under spoilers" meant under a spoiler tag.

I trust you will forgive me for laughing at your expense, @sistermagpie, given these are mirthless times in which we live, but this makes me think of Winnie the Pooh "living under the name of Sanders" and some adults today thinking Sanders was Pooh's last name (lavasurfer.com/pooh-faq2.html) which amuses me because I learned to read with that book during enforced "nap times" around 1957 or so.

 

****************

 

8 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I liked when George defended his mother after his father made that stupid comment about their bloodline falling for "feminine deviancy" or whatever. I dont think that Georges father was necessarily involved in the kidnapping, but I think that he is going to be some part in figuring out who was pulling the strings. 

This was an interesting bit of dialog ("that stupid comment about their bloodline falling for 'feminine deviancy'") which seemed possibly Chekhovian to me.
Today I had Law & Order reruns on in the background, including one in which a VIP father was so determined to keep his son's sexual orientation on the down low that he wound up getting his son killed --some sort of blackmail was involved.
Perhaps in this show George's VIP-in-the-church birth father got roped into participating in the ransom scheme via some sort of blackmail about his out-of-wedlock son (George).

 

[EtheltoTillie]

Is Perry supposed to be a non practicing lawyer who actually went to law school?  Was there a diploma shown in an earlier episode?  

[shapeshifter]

39 minutes ago, GussieK said:

Is Perry supposed to be a non practicing lawyer who actually went to law school?  Was there a diploma shown in an earlier episode?  

No diploma. Just speculation.
And maybe don’t forget: In California you can pass the bar and practice law without a law school diploma. 

[Domestic Assassin]

There is a diploma hanging above his dresser in the pilot, but I can't see any of the details (the only words I can make out are "Los Angeles" and "Diploma"). It could just be a high school diploma.