Season 4 Talk

[SadieT]

This show should have definitely ended after season 1. Season 2, 3 and 4 just got progressively worse. This final season was an utter shit show and difficult to get through. And killing Justin just felt like a cheap way to make viewers emotional over the ending of a series that hadn't been good in years. 

[AngieEllen]

On 6/6/2020 at 1:16 AM, NUguy514 said:

 

On 6/6/2020 at 1:16 AM, NUguy514 said:

There is a 0% chance Clay wouldn't have been shot fucking dead for pulling that officer's gun and waving it around like the psycho he is.

The Principal just told Clay that the Bullets in the officer's guns were blanks.  So no one's life was in danger. (Although I have to admit since Clay knew that I was waiting for Clay to shoot the Principal) 

Anyways..... Constitutionally an Officer can use deadly force under two circumstances... The first circumstance is “to protect their life or the life of another innocent party” — what departments call the “defense-of-life” standard. The second circumstance is to prevent a suspect from escaping, but only if the officer has probable cause to think the suspect poses a dangerous threat to others.

[NUguy514]

10 hours ago, AngieEllen said:

Anyways..... Constitutionally an Officer can use deadly force under two circumstances... The first circumstance is “to protect their life or the life of another innocent party” — what departments call the “defense-of-life” standard. The second circumstance is to prevent a suspect from escaping, but only if the officer has probable cause to think the suspect poses a dangerous threat to others.

Given Clay's psychosis, I'd say both of those reasons would fit.  However, police officers don't tend to shoot or use deadly force on white guys, so it's lucky for Clay he can rave and openly wave guns around, blanks or not, and walk into a police station and announce loudly that he has a gun without fear of getting shot, even if that's what he wants.  No, in fact, he's rewarded with an acceptance to Brown University.

[Snow Fairy]

So, they did nothing to explain the camping trip episode? I thought half of them ate some pot brownies, hence the hallucinations.

How was Clay thrown in the hole, drew graffiti there, exited the hole, locked the other ones in the house, get back to the hole?

[NUguy514]

22 minutes ago, Snow Fairy said:

So, they did nothing to explain the camping trip episode? I thought half of them ate some pot brownies, hence the hallucinations.

How was Clay thrown in the hole, drew graffiti there, exited the hole, locked the other ones in the house, get back to the hole?

The response from the show's writers:

[Neurochick]

On 6/11/2020 at 9:18 PM, Mama No Life said:

And I enjoyed seeing Denise Huxtable's husband appreciate her sermon haha.

Who's her husband?

[Bill1978]

On 6/12/2020 at 11:18 AM, Mama No Life said:

And I enjoyed seeing Denise Huxtable's husband appreciate her sermon haha.

Ah that's why he was so familiar. I do like to chuckle when yu have reunion of characters from one show occurring on another show, especially when it relies on the audience making the connection and not the writers haha.

[Mama No Life]

4 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Who's her husband?

Jessica's dad is played by the guy who was Martin, Denise's husband, on The Cosby Show.

[truthaboutluv]

Okay, so I cheated. The first episode was good. But once the season devolved into anonymous threatening calls and of course all things pointing to Clay once again, I lost interest and said fuck it and skipped to the last three episodes. 

Plus, thanks to overzealous fans and their million Justin Foley tribute videos on YouTube, I was already spoiled about Justin's dying, though I didn't know he'd gotten AIDS. I also very quickly figured out that Clay was experiencing some kind of psychotic break and was the one who wrote the "Monty was framed" message. 

Of the four episodes I did see, my general thoughts are I still liked Clay and Tony interestingly enough, at the end of all this. It was nice to see Zach pull his shit together, since he did have a bright future ahead of him before all the crazy shit happened. Alex was okay. I do wonder if they decided to make the character gay because of Miles' real life sexual preference and once they decided to go full speed ahead with the Justin/Jessica love story. 

Speaking of which, I was sad about Justin's death and it was sadly, an all too real tragic story. That said, sorry, not sorry, I'm never going to romanticize the Jessica and Justin romance and ever see it as anything other than a fucked up and toxic situation. I hate to be THAT person, but I do worry about some impressionable teens watching the series and viewing that relationship as romantic. No, just no.

I also hated the ambiguous end of her and future abuser, aka football player guy. Again, no. Dude had red flags flying all over the place. I understand the show's kumbaya message of learning to forgive and accepting that people are flawed. It's why I'll give that Ani had a point about Clay. That his biggest flaw with girls is that he puts them on pedestals that no one can live up to. People make mistakes, yes.

However, some people are also straight up assholes and sometimes straight up hateful. And it's not unforgiving or un-Christian like as they try to tell me in church, to say, "no, I don't forget. And no, I don't want anything to do with you". Forgiveness does not mean forgetting. And I've always subscribed to the words of the great Maya Angelou - "when people show you who they are, believe them". And sometimes, what they show you, it ain't good.

Speaking of relationships, I guess the writers realized how much they'd fucked up with the overdose of Ani in Season 3 and so her presence was significantly reduced. That said, watching the ending scene when the tapes were buried, and having Courtney and Ryan back, made me realize what was most annoying about Ani ever being introduced.

Not only was she not needed, but the writers completely did away with Sherri, a character who actually was involved in the plot from the beginning and who Clay actually had decent chemistry with.  I will never understand why the writers got rid of Sherri and only to inflict Ani onto the viewers. And no surprise she and Clay essentially flopped, seeing as they had no chemistry. 

Clay's best chemistry was with Hannah and Sherri. The scene of him and the weirdo girl at the end was nice. Because at this point, all I could think watching this was that hopefully college goes a lot better for Clay. 

By far the saddest character on this show though was Winston. How sad does one have to be to "fall in love" with some deeply closeted self-loathing asshole who beat the shit out of him? All because they spent one decent night together where said self-loathing asshole didn't beat the shit out of him.

Winston was on this warpath of vengeance for a guy who basically hurt and brutalized tons of people. The prom scene was good to make the point that he didn't know Monty, that this love story he built in his head was never going to fucking happen because sorry, I do believe Monty was already lost. That dude was either going to eventually murder someone or be murdered, like he was.

Edited June 17, 2020 by truthaboutluv

[truthaboutluv]

Quote

That being said - I don't get all the hate for Clay. I know there are moments (especially this season) when his behavior was grating, and his problems may seem minor compared to some of the other kids who are victims of rape, physical and sexual abuse by parental figures, homelessness, addiction, disability, sexual repression, etc. but his problems are still real - they're still valid.

Yeah I have the unpopular opinion of never disliking Clay. Was he perfect, absolutely not. But had he been, some viewers would scoff and call the character a Gary Stu and be annoyed about that. For me, the reason I never disliked Clay is that for whatever flaws he had, I truly believe that fundamentally the character was a good person who tried to do the right thing. 

I know so much has happened since that first season and so people have forgotten a lot, but Clay's having had some type of mental illness was touched on in Season 1, when his parents referenced his having to take medication in the past. It's why some were critical of Hannah for leaving Clay a tape, even if it was just to say sorry to him. The fact is, her leaving him the tape dragged him into that whole dark saga that he didn't have to be in. Especially since he was already dealing with his grief over her death. 

And I know Justin's redemption and story arc was a moving one and Brandon Flynn did an amazing job in the role. But call me petty, I for one never forgot how Justin and Clay's relationship first started. You know, the many threats to Clay's life Justin made, all because they were all covering their asses about the tapes and were worried that Clay, who had nothing to lose, since his tape absolved him of any wrong doing, would go public with them.

And still Clay had to find it in himself to forgive Justin for these things (and I liked that scene in Season 2 when Clay honestly told Justin, "who said I've completely forgiven you") and helped him out in a way most people would never. So okay, as he was mentally falling apart and spiraling, he lashed out and was bitter over feeling like his parents were prouder of Justin than him. To me, Clay's flaws were believable, especially again for a character that's not meant to be perfect. Clay for the first 16 years of his life was an only child. He was his parents' whole freaking world.

Of course he had moments of resentment and bitterness towards Justin for "usurping" them, even while yes, he did love Justin and wanted to be there for him. That's what makes humans complex beings. You can have conflicted emotions. Siblings who are born and raised of the same parents, sometimes resent each other.

This is a show that tried to humanize two violent rapists and I'm going to judge Clay for being an angry, petulant brat at times? Especially since the kid had mental problems and been through a lot. 

Also, the whole "friendship" with most of these people was bullshit. Let us all never forget how Jessica and Alex silently stood by and watch Clay get arrested, knowing Alex is the one who murdered Bryce. Zach too, stayed silent for a long time about how he beat the shit out of Bryce on the pier. Honestly, Alex looked completely unbothered all of Season 3 while the Sheriff was ready to lock Clay up and throw away the key. Great friends there. 

And speaking of Alex, if we want to talk about people getting away with things and getting rewarded, dude murdered someone and got everyone, including his daddy and even the Sheriff (because the Sheriff clearly figured it out) to cover it up and still got into a great college and have the perfect fantasy same sex romance, complete with winning Prom King and King. 

And Jessica seemed more annoyed than anything else at Clay's mental issues possibly putting them at risk and the secrets coming out. The irony is that until this season, Clay was the least guilty of crimes (had nothing to with Hannah's suicide, nothing to do with Bryce's death) and seemed to be suffering more consequences than some others. 

Quote

 

I mean, I will list some of the things Clay did this season:

1. He locked Jessica inside that structure during the camping episode

2. He smashed the cameras in the school

3. He graffitied the walls of the school

4. He crashed a car and left his friend without any assistance

5. He took a cop’s gun and wields it in the school

6. He misses all of his college applications and messes up his interviews

7. He is an ass to Justin all season long

8. He goes into a cop station and says he has a gun

9. He violently beats up some dude at the party

10. He blows up the principal’s car

11. He interferes with a sting operation

12. He escapes a hospital ward

13. Tests positive for drugs and blames it on the addict brother.

 

Half of these things were done while Clay was in a dissociative state and so he was unaware he was doing it. As the poster noted, yes, Clay was a privilege white boy who didn't deal with addict parents, homelessness, rape and abuse but does that mean his mental illness does not matter? And is mental illness not worthy of the empathy given to some other characters?

My final very unpopular opinion is that as sad as Justin's death was, considering what this show has been from the beginning, i.e. depressing as fuck and tackling every possible teenage issue they could, Justin's death was in no way surprising. I didn't see the AIDS storyline but I predicted Justin OD'ing since Season 3.

Sorry but everything about Justin's story sadly screamed statistic. And for me, his college essay being about Clay was fitting because Clay finding Justin that day on the street probably gave Justin a few more months than he would have had, because he'd have probably died months earlier in the streets somewhere. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by truthaboutluv

[Anela]

I didn't hate Clay, either. I also guessed during the first episode of this season, that he was the one who spray-painted the thing about Monty. His guilty conscience eating away at him. 

[memememe76]

Clay’s mental illness should explain his behaviour, not excuse it. Clay gets away with EVERYTHING. 

[truthaboutluv]

7 minutes ago, memememe76 said:

Clay’s mental illness should explain his behaviour, not excuse it. Clay gets away with EVERYTHING. 

Yeah but most of them got away with a lot of shit. And as I noted above, Alex got away with freaking murder. Got away with it, even while he quietly sat back and watched Clay almost get put on trial for said murder he knew he committed. Yeah a big part of that guilt Clay was carrying around that was fucking with him and his already delicate mental state, was the framing of Monty for the murder Alex committed. 

And what consequences did Alex suffer exactly? Instead he got to go to his fancy college, got the dreamy, perfect boyfriend and corny, perfect same sex love story complete with being crowned at the Prom. Bryce got away with raping a bunch of girls until Zach beat the shit out of him and Alex finished him off. Because lest we forget, had that not happened, Bryce would have gone on to complete his high school and life as normal, seeing as he only got a slap on the wrist for raping Hannah. 

Speaking of Zach. He confesses to the police about beating the shit out of the kid whose murder they're investigating and they just say, "oh that's not how he died, you're fine". This season, he's vandalizing shit, acting up and nothing. Instead he gets hired by the football coach. 

It's not an excuse to not punish someone for actions they didn't even remember doing. That's part of the reason insanity pleas exist. Again, I'm not saying Clay is perfect by any means. But there was plenty of shitty, selfish, douchbag actions to go around on this show.

[Harmony233]

Alex being bryces killer was so dumb especially when they didn't do anything with it It would be one thing if that had been Alex dealing with killing someone but that wasn't even his story this season and it lead to nowhere.

[Snow Fairy]

They would have had the same result if they covered up that Jessica and Alex saw hurt Bryce fall in the water (accidentally,because he was to hurt from the beating to walk straight), and not try to help him. Then didn't have to make Alex a murderer if they didn't mean to make him pay for the crime.

I know that not helping Bryce would also be a crime, but probably with different jail time or something? I don't know US legal system

Edited June 17, 2020 by Snow Fairy

[tennisgurl]

I guess the lesson of Alex's story is "Its really good to have family in law enforcement, you can get away with anything!" 

As for the whole season...it was better than season three probably, but also not totally? I was a real season two apologist, because while it certainly wasn't as good as season one, I thought that the character work from the supporting cast was really strong, especially because, without everyone having to go through somewhat similar beats in the flashbacks as season one (is nice to Hannah, than an asshole to her) everyone got better character development and we saw a lot of growth from most all of the characters, and got a sort of bittersweet ending where Clay got closure with Hannah, and Bryce was charged with rape, even if all he got was a slap on the wrist. Season three though...had Ani as narrator and the stupid murder mystery and WAY too much time with Bryce trying to make us feel bad for him, and was generally a bit of a hot mess and when the show really took its turn into ridiculous Pretty Little Liars style melodrama and ridiculous hijinks and plot twists. Season four was in some ways better, with no Ani narration, but worse in some ways. Just about everyone except for Tyler, Tony, and Justin spent most of the season being assholes (at least Clay has the excuse of having a mental breakdown) the whole thing with the school and the parents all doing all kinds of sketchy stuff was hit or miss, the ending was pretty lame, and, as has been discussed, everything with Monty and Bryce and their pain in the ass ghosts and the never ending unearned sympathy thrown towards them was just baffling. And, as I have made clear, I hate that Justin died, especially the way that he did. It takes one of my favorite arcs of the show, Justin trying to take responsibility for his bad choices and become a better person after tons and tons of personal struggles and tragedy and his friendship with Clay, and gives it this super depressing ending that makes the whole thing pointless. Like his whole character, in the end, only existed to die so that Clay and his other friends would be inspired to live their best lives because you can drop dead of super fast acting AIDS at any second. 

When it comes to which characters deserves forgiveness, its an interesting conversation to be had I guess. My problem is that this show really cant handle the massive moral implications of seeing the humanity in someone who did a truly heinous crime, so that instead in come off as everyone in this show being bizarrely forgiving of truly horrible things. Like how many people were willing to still hang out with Bryce last season, and the amount of time spent on him, but you know, even then the people most struggling with his death and their complicated feelings towards him were at least people who you would expect to have those feelings, like his mom or Justin, who hated him for what he did  but had also been his best friend for years. But this season, it just went so over the top. It was like all of the football players and Winston just totally either forgot that Monty was a violent rapist, or just didn't care, which I guess is the most likely option, and the audience itself was supposed to feel bad for Monty and I DO NOT. Especially Winston, who hardly even knew the guy! Winston must himself have a lot of deep seated issues, if he is this obsessed with the memories of a person who he slept with twice, and beat the shit out of after the first time. Its sad that Monty grew up in such a horrible environment and that by the time he died, he was already so broken as a person, but, honestly, considering what he did for Tyler, and for the pettiest of reasons, he probably would have raped or killed someone anyway and end up in jail for whatever he did next. Of course, its not fair to judge someone for what they might do, but all signs pointed to him being a violent and deeply disturbed person. Of course, just about everyone on this has done awful things before,  certainly in varying degrees, some pretty minor assholeery and some violent and terrible crimes, so the question becomes, what crimes are forgivable or unforgivable? Do you have to show remorse or work to make up for your mistakes before you find redemption? These are really big questions, and I feel like the show was trying to ask the questions, but the show just couldn't really handle it, so instead we are just told to feel bad for two rapists (and yeah, if you have raped a number of women or raped someone with a damn broom, that probably says a lot about you as a person, regardless of background) and everyone gets away with everything and have perfect happy endings, except for Justin (who I would arguably say has done the most to try and make up for his worst behavior and try to become a better person) who I guess caught everyone's karma in one big AIDS karma bag, like the writers knew that someone had to get a bad endings so that everyone else could get a happy storybook ending after everything that has gone down, and Justin drew the short straw, because everything bad happens to him. 

I mean, its not every show that dedicates massive amounts of screen time to "you know, rapists are people too!" as a...lesson? Weird, weird flex, show. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by tennisgurl

[truthaboutluv]

54 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Winston must himself have a lot of deep seated issues, if he is this obsessed with the memories of a person who he slept with twice, and beat the shit out of after the first time.

This is why I said I think the saddest person this season was Winston. Dude clearly had some major self-esteem issues and self-loathing to believe himself so in love with some guy he only met and banged twice. And the first time it happened, if others hadn't been around, that same guy likely would have beaten him to death.

Even his intense feelings over Alex was telling. Winston was clearly desperate for some type of love and connection with another person and so he romanticized the smallest moments into something greater. A part of me just felt sad for him but the other part wanted to smack him, when he was standing there listening to Tyler talk about how Monty hurt him and he still kept on some warpath to "avenge" Monty. Like the fuck?

 

54 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Its sad that Monty grew up in such a horrible environment and that by the time he died, he was already so broken as a person, but, honestly, considering what he did for Tyler, and for the pettiest of reasons, he probably would have raped or killed someone anyway and end up in jail anyway.

This exactly. The Tyler attack was the worse and most brutal of his crimes but Monty had also tried killing Clay, by running him off the road, he kept torturing Alex, sending him bullets and other paraphernalia, pushing him to try and kill himself again and of course the harassment of Jessica for speaking out about what Bryce did to her. Monty was an angry and violent person and we never saw any indication that he had any plans to grow and try to become better. 

 

54 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Of course, just about everyone on this has done awful things before,  certainly in varying degrees, some pretty minor assholeery and some violent and terrible crimes, so the question becomes, what crimes are forgivable or unforgivable? Do you have to show remorse or work to make up for your mistakes before you find redemption? These are really big questions, and I feel like the show was trying to ask the questions, but the show just couldn't really handle it

Well said and completely agree. 

I found all of the Monty and Bryce forgiveness stuff annoying but the absolute worse for me was the inexplicable Ani/Bryce "romance" in Season 3. Another reason I never wanted Ani and Clay together. Because I'm sorry, that was peak rape apologist behavior. Girl was friends with Jessica, knew what Jessica had been through and chooses to fuck her rapist. Say what now? And Clay's being bothered and upset by that was framed as some type of anti-slut shaming lesson. Again, say what now?

The second was the continued narrative of Justin's complicated feelings of love for Bryce. Here's the thing. I get that Justin had a long history with Bryce where Bryce had been there for him many times financially. But in my opinion, when Bryce willingly raped Justin's drunk and passed out girlfriend with him outside the bedroom door, even after Justin tried to stop him, so he KNEW it was fucked up and wrong, that "friendship" was done.

Because a true friend and someone who really loved someone, wouldn't betray them in that way. Bryce's action wasn't just a violation to Jessica, it was a betrayal to his "best friend". It showed that he gave no fucks about Justin and his feelings. And so that whole, "I loved him. We were friends, etc. etc." No, just no.

More than anything, these were the storylines I found very hard to accept. And it's also why as judgmental as some insisted he was, I was fully here for Clay's never-ending and adamant feelings of "fuck Bryce and Monty. They were two rapists". I liked the scene in Season 3 when he told Bryce's mother he didn't murder Bryce but still stressed that yes, he hated him and no, he wasn't sad he was dead. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by truthaboutluv

[hertolo]

Guys and Girls, shows like this aren't meant to be a realistic depiction of Life. Just count all the horrible trauma that has happened over four seasons. And all these strange antics, the characters get into. How much time do they have on their hand?

So a lot of the questions and discussions (college interviews, SAT, why were those two at the end speech?) are easily explained by how a TV show is produced. No need to explain them in universe, the point of the show is another. And it has learned compared to season 1. For example, they show Jessica and Diego getting a HIV-test. Unnecessary scene, but such an important one. It was a little bit of a PSA, but I found it tolearble. And I'm not the primary public for this show.

The show seemed a lot more gay in this season. It might seem strange to see the Football Team suddenly so acceptable, but I do believe that the environment that made Monty feel so uncomfortable was just banter. The tragic is that the boys making that banter didn't get how hurtful their words were. Kids these days are a lot more accepting. Still, being able to explain away a shift in tone doesn't mean that that shift doesn't exist.

Lastly, I want to repeat that Monty is by far the saddest character of this season. In the end, he is still alone, even though all he probably wants is a genuine human connection. Which is why he latched so much onto Monty. I do think he would have let it go if Clay hadn't broken him and Alex up. It's a sad story, and maybe one that hit a bit too close to home for me since I had a similar challenge after coming out. 

So that is what I mean by "it doesn't have to be realistic to be a real story". Magical Realism and all that.

[NUguy514]

3 hours ago, hertolo said:

Guys and Girls, shows like this aren't meant to be a realistic depiction of Life. Just count all the horrible trauma that has happened over four seasons. And all these strange antics, the characters get into. How much time do they have on their hand?

So a lot of the questions and discussions (college interviews, SAT, why were those two at the end speech?) are easily explained by how a TV show is produced. No need to explain them in universe, the point of the show is another. And it has learned compared to season 1. For example, they show Jessica and Diego getting a HIV-test. Unnecessary scene, but such an important one. It was a little bit of a PSA, but I found it tolearble. And I'm not the primary public for this show.

The show seemed a lot more gay in this season. It might seem strange to see the Football Team suddenly so acceptable, but I do believe that the environment that made Monty feel so uncomfortable was just banter. The tragic is that the boys making that banter didn't get how hurtful their words were. Kids these days are a lot more accepting. Still, being able to explain away a shift in tone doesn't mean that that shift doesn't exist.

Lastly, I want to repeat that Monty is by far the saddest character of this season. In the end, he is still alone, even though all he probably wants is a genuine human connection. Which is why he latched so much onto Monty. I do think he would have let it go if Clay hadn't broken him and Alex up. It's a sad story, and maybe one that hit a bit too close to home for me since I had a similar challenge after coming out. 

So that is what I mean by "it doesn't have to be realistic to be a real story". Magical Realism and all that.

Shows like this exactly mean to portray real life, if maybe a slightly heightened version of it.  This isn't Stranger Things or even The Office.

And the show has not learned from Season 1.  You need only look at how Clay's mental breakdown was portrayed to know that the show learned nothing about how to portray serious issues.

On average, kids are more accepting now, but that is a trend rather than an absolute.  I have a student who told me that a junior on the baseball team at her school is vocally racist and homophobic, yet he's never been reprimanded for it and has already been recruited by Harvard.  This is a kid who goes to the most competitive private school in Los Angeles, not somewhere one might assume to be stereotypically racist and homophobic.  And as that applies to this show, it wasn't just banter.  Monty didn't brutally rape Tyler with a broomstick by himself; a few of his teammates helped him.  And the way the f-word was was used in general by those teammates and was directed at specific characters like Zach and Justin (often for daring not to sanction the behavior that has led to the rape culture of that team) was not just banter.  It just doesn't fly that this group of toxic, abusive, bullying rapists would suddenly be super-excited by Prom Kings when they've never shown themselves to be even marginally tolerant before.

And I don't consider Winston sad; I consider him pathetic, and I consider the character himself to be a dangerous stereotype for the show to portray.

[hertolo]

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to exuse them. And that is why a clear shift is seen between the seasons. 

But "slightly" enhanced? Maybe it's my European perspective speaking here, but it all seemed a little bit much fantastical to me. So yes, I kinda forgot about Montys two helpers, but I did just assume they had to leave as well...

What the football team did was more than banter, but I strongly believe to them it only seemed as banter. That's the very problem with so many of these topics: you first have to convince the perpetrators thzt what they are doing is really bad. I thought I had singled out that important distinction better in my post. Sorry for that then. 

Monty intensified the homophobic atmosphere himself at the football team, which seems oh so typical. Maybe when he was gone? In any case, you are right, I can't speak to the general level of homopjobia in the younger generations. That very interesting discussion would also flood this thread and not be appropriate. I just spoke of my personal impressions and you did then of your very different own. Fair enough.

With Winston, sad and pathetic are the same to me here. I still hold, had Winston had a group of friends himself, he never would have "fallen" so much for Monty. It is not his fault he doesn't have a support group like Alex or Tyler had. (that was a condcious decision by the writers). But not having any friends in high school happens - and it changes the whole game. It's a sad story, doesn't make what he did (allegedly) right by the way. 

So, I see you, I want to apologize for any harsher tones I chose - i did so because we are on a web forum here -, but i still hold on to most of my points. 

[truthaboutluv]

9 hours ago, hertolo said:

With Winston, sad and pathetic are the same to me here.

Same with me. My calling Winston sad is just another way of saying that yes, he was pathetic. 

[Mark Kesner]

On 6/5/2020 at 8:19 PM, starri said:

I think Alex's storyline was the most interesting, but a lot of that was because it really seemed to open up Miles Heizer as an actor in a way he hadn't been before.

I agree completely. Season 4 was an enhanced character development for Alex, and Miles Heizer owned that role! He should get an award!

Brandon Flynn's role as Justin Foley was stepped up for season 4, as well. A lot of dark sadness was developed in his character. Justin's character went from popular high school jock in season 1 to a deep tragedy in season 4. Brandon evolved with his character's deepening in a compelling way. I'm sure that Brandon found Season 4 his greatest acting opportunity for the this franchise, the season for which he'll be most remembered. He should also get an award!

[RealReality]

On 6/7/2020 at 10:59 AM, NUguy514 said:

Well, touring a number of colleges is very common among the more privileged students who can afford those tours, but very few schools actually require an interview as part of a student's application.

I told Charlie and Alex through my television like a totally sane person that they needed to work on their gaydar because I'd clocked Foundry's being gay from his first appearance.

Yeah, it also rang very false to me that the football team was cheering so hard for them.  I mean, I was glad, but this is the same team that has a culture of systematically raping girls, so it doesn't feel right that they'd be so gay-friendly.  But yay?

I did laugh heartily at the Eli Manning argument Charlie and his dad had because Andrew McCarthy was so right.  And I would never in one million years call Eli Manning anything close to beautiful, but there's no accounting for taste, I suppose.

That was one of my issues with this, though.  I thought the lesions looked like Kaposi sarcoma, and I didn't understand why no one in the world of the show seemed to be concerned about, or even notice, these obvious marks developing on Justin.  It felt like at least Matt and Lainie would've made him get those checked out.  It was a nice hint to us audience members who might know what we were looking at, but the characters on the show should've been concerned, too.

I'll add to that that I don't think Monty seemed particularly angry so much as sadistically gleeful when he raped Tyler with that mop handle.

Agree about the sarcoma.  It was HUGE, was not healing and was followed by others.  

Like all these kids with their phones and their robots no one wanted to Google it? 

I think Justin had a feeling all along that he probably had HIV and he was super careful with jess, so I could see why HE wouldn't Google it....but no one else?  No dermatologist on the health plan? 

[Cotypubby]

Not reading any posts in this thread cause I’ve only seen episode 1 so far, but I just want to give a hearty FUCK YOU to Entertainment Weekly for having their weekly email to subscribers include the headline: “13 Reasons Why: Justin’s tragic ending.”

😡😡😡😤😤😤

You don’t put spoilers for current shows/movies in HEADLINES for fuck’s sake!!

[Lady Calypso]

Yeah, so this season was....a little bit of a mess. I have a lot of critiques about it. But then again, I think I just have critiques about the entire series in general, especially with how poorly they portray mental illness and how to deal with it. 

I mean, Clay was having a mental breakdown all season and not one person really stepped it for far longer than they should have. Justin knew Clay was not sleeping and he didn't raise it with Clay's parents. And everyone else kind of just said to Clay "hey, you have issues. Go fix it." 

Justin was a great part of this season, at least. I've thoroughly enjoyed seeing him grow as a person throughout the series. Which is why his ending both made me sad and pissed me off.

Justin's death...honestly felt so unnecessary with how they did it. They didn't set it up as well as they think they did, because it wasn't even hinted until near the end. Plus, it just felt super depressing. I usually can handle a twist like this, but this show didn't do it that well. The only solace was the excellent acting in the finale. Out of all the ways he dies, it's from AIDS? They didn't approach the subject well at all, especially with how AIDS can be managed nowadays. 

Also, the school lockdown episode was horrifically bad besides the end scene. Like, so bad that I can't even be shocked since this show has consistently had one social issue that was done poorly. What kind of school would outright traumatize kids like that for a drill and then tell the students to get back to school the next day? I'd be suing the living hell out of that school if they ever did that. 

And a lot of plots were kind of dropped, such as the Winston stuff. 

I just wish certain plots were done better. But really, the ending to the series was just not something I liked. 

And some of the new characters were either developed poorly or not at all. Was I really supposed to root for Jessica/Diego, or Diego, after his first few episodes? And especially with how dickish he was in general? 

Estella didn't do a single thing that I can remember. Winston's not a new character, but he had so much potential and they really wasted it. 

Plus, I felt like they let so many characters get away with their shit. I like Alex and his development, but I truly thought they were leading to him turning himself in at the end. Honestly, he SHOULD have. He killed Bryce and tried to cover it up. Same with Jess, and same with everyone else. I hated Alex's dad handwaving Alex's actions. And I did enjoy Alex this season. This season was better than the last one for him. I enjoyed the coming out arc for Alex (though I have some shit to rant about with this show and sexuality this season) but I really thought they should have ended it with Alex turning himself in. That would have been a great closure arc for Alex. 

And, opposite that, Justin shouldn't have died. He should have been the one to turn his life around. He's one of the very few to get a crappy ending after a great redemption arc, and it pisses me off. I honestly think that, out of everyone, he deserved a happy ending the most. I would have been fine with literally any other character meeting their demise, even Tyler and Zach. But Justin? He was the one that should have survived and it felt like they killed him off JUST for that shock value and to show "hey, if you kill someone or cover up murders or do shitty stuff without consequence, you can go to college and live a happy life. But if you try to turn your life around and become a better person, LOL, you die." 

I mean, I get the reasoning for Justin's death, I do. But they did it poorly. If he had to die, set it up way better and way earlier in the season instead of having it as shock value.

Zach's stuff was decent enough. He was an asshole on and off, but I did enjoy watching his arc. He was spiraling and at least it was understandable as to why. 

So, going back to the poor portray of not just mental health issues but social issues, I did note a few things that they screwed up. Count how many females they had this season. They had three female regulars and three recurring females. That's it. This show has praised themselves for female empowerment but how can they really do that when they only had Jessica, Ani, and Clay's mother? And then some random chick that Clay sleeps with, Monty's sister, and Chloe for a couple of scenes.

Also, I can count a few times where characters were outed by other people. Zach absolutely outed Alex in the camping episode. We didn't see any scene of Alex giving Zach permission to tell Jessica and Justin about his sexuality but Zach had no issue saying "Hey, Alex and Winston are a thing!" I don't care if they were close in public. Alex was not out as gay to anyone since then. And, even though Monty's dead, he was also outed to people, such as Clay telling Alex. How can this show be so cavalier in this? Ani also outed Alex to Clay. This may not be a huge deal in retrospect, since Alex didn't seem to give a shit, but it's a moment where I stopped and thought "hey, Alex should be the one to share this with his friends, not Zach or Ani!"

I know my post has been negative so far so let me focus on some positives. Alex's arc, like I said, was actually pretty good. Even though I think a better ending would have been to turn himself in (I think he could have fought for a lighter sentence because of his TBI), I didn't hate his ending. Plus, his entire seasonal arc was one of the more interesting aspects. I liked his relationship with Winston and with Charlie. I always thought that Alex/Jessica was weird. I wasn't sure if it was because I never felt anything with Miles and Alisha due to the actors not having chemistry or if it was intentional for Alex/Jessica to never work out. At the very least, Alex's sexuality didn't feel like it was randomly thrown in to the final season for more LGBTQ representation.

Winston's stuff was just plain sad. Poor guy deserved better. Tony's fighting storyline was....meh. His arc last season was handled better. 

As for Clay's breakdown, as frustrating as it was at times and as much as I disliked certain aspects, I thought it was done...alright. It was somewhat predictable, but some excellent acting from Dylan Minette. Really, he carried his scenes very well and I could at least see reason in his behaviour. Let's face it; Clay's been breaking down all series long.

Maybe what hindered this season WAS it being 10 episodes rather than the usual 13 episodes. Maybe they could have benefited from a couple of more episodes. I wish I liked the season more, but there was a lot more I didn't like than things that I did. 

[Cotypubby]

Episode 3: Why is Clay so sorry and remorseful at Monty’s death? The killing of Bryce had literally nothing to do with Monty’s murder! Monty was in jail because he raped Tyler, and he got shivved because he was labeled as a “child rapist.” Nothing Clay did in any way led to Monty getting killed, unless “supporting a friend who was sexually assaulted and giving them the confidence to go to the police” is supposed to be a bad thing that he regrets. They could have all come forward about Bryce and admitted the truth and Monty still would have been killed in the shower.

[truthaboutluv]

15 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Maybe what hindered this season WAS it being 10 episodes rather than the usual 13 episodes. Maybe they could have benefited from a couple of more episodes.

Oh God no. More episodes would have been more opportunity to pad in more shit that made no sense. 

Edited June 24, 2020 by truthaboutluv

[mytmo]

So I was trying to figure out when this series jumped the shark.  I came to the conclusion it was the school active shooter drill.  So many lawsuits.  Mental anguish of course and probably bodily injury cause you know someone would've jumped out the window or hurt themselves otherwise.  No waiver of liability would've absolved that debacle.  I've done more hand waving this series than a girl on a parade float.

So much promise in Seasons 1 & 2.  Not sure what the hell happened in 3 & 4.  I did like the sarcasm of Zach and ghosts Bryce and Monty when they antagonized Clay though.  Fast forward through the prom - ugh.  Teared up when Justin died.  Question if Ani had a 4.4 GPA how come no yellow cord?  What kind of scholarship package did Tony get?  Boxing?  Not a school sanctioned sport.  Jessica would've been kicked out of school for the whole halftime thing and inciting a riot at the school.  I know wave wave wave.  

[Cotypubby]

Episode 4: WTF? When did this show become a horror movie!? I don’t even know what to say about all that. 
 

Jessica, great choice in guys as always. I see you’ve certainly learned how to pick them. At least you put Ani in her place. 

[Cotypubby]

Up to Episode 7. Has no one noticed the giant injury on Justin’s neck? It doesn’t look like it’s from when Jessica threw the stapler at him. It actually reminds me of Kaposy’s sarcoma, oh shit are they going to have Justin die from AIDS?

[Cotypubby]

On 6/24/2020 at 10:09 AM, mytmo said:

So I was trying to figure out when this series jumped the shark. 

I can tell you the exact moment. It begins with “A” and ends with “i”.

4 hours ago, Cotypubby said:

Up to Episode 7. Has no one noticed the giant injury on Justin’s neck? It doesn’t look like it’s from when Jessica threw the stapler at him. It actually reminds me of Kaposy’s sarcoma, oh shit are they going to have Justin die from AIDS?

Welp, called that one!

Seriously no one else in the show notices Justin is covered in lesions!? Clay’s parents don’t notice them on his neck, forehead and hands?

And geez, I admit all the flashbacks in the previous seasons have me confused in the timelines, but if Justin contracted HIV during season 2, we’re supposed to believe he goes from infection to full blown AIDS and death within what, a year, year and a half? 
 

I don’t like how no one in the show ever brought up the fact that Bryce’s murder had zero to do with Monty’s murder. They are completely unrelated incidents. No one ever said to Winston or Diego that Monty was killed because he was labeled as a child rapist in jail. That’s the only reason. 
 

Season 4 was much better than season 3 for the sole reason of less Ani! The writers teased us a bit there with the mention of Ani possibly moving away, before dashing all our hopes and keeping her on. At least they toned her way down and even got rid of her for an episode or two. 
 

The sheriff telling Alex’s father that he’s ok with covering up the murder because of “family” is... yeesh not really the message you want to send. Alex’s father covering, I understand that. He’s his son. But the sheriff covering up for a fellow cop’s son? Not a good look right now. Especially because I guess the writers want us to be happy about that and glad that the coverup will stand?
 

Clay constantly getting out of situations that should rightly have ended in jail time became tiring. He grabs a cop’s gun, waves it around, threatens people with it, and gets sent to a mental ward which he promptly escapes, and then... nothing? 
 

Clay walks into a police station, claims he has a gun and threatens people, and then... nothing?
 

Clay blows up a car and then... nothing?

🙄

[BigDfromLA]

On 6/17/2020 at 2:45 PM, hertolo said:

The show seemed a lot more gay in this season.

I guess the show runner/writers really wanted to go far with it in the last season. Alex, Charlie, Tony, Caleb, Winston, the Dean, Monty and maybe Zach were all gay? Didn't Ani and Jessica share a kiss as well? Interesting. Wasn't Alex life-and-death-in-love with Jessica for the first three seasons? I was surprised by him. 

That principal is an unprofessional hack bureaucrat who should have been fired in Season 1. His incompetence and ineptitude were constant. A lockdown that extreme would have never happened. Also the procedure is for kids to stay in a room with a teacher/adult or find the nearest room with one if they are in the hallway. They would never spend a lock down by themselves with no adult anywhere to be found. I was also shocked that there were so many empty rooms with no kids or teachers on a typical school day (for the characters to be alone in). You would never see that in a typical public high school. Also, there would be countless teacher chaperones on the camping trip with the students. Parent chaperones would not be used, especially parents only with no teachers. Just dumb. 

There was nothing in the first three seasons to indicate that Clay was an Ivy League caliber student and ESPECIALLY that Justin was the caliber of student who would even be considered for a school like Occidental. Did I miss something? 

Whatever happened to Sherri and Skye? Wouldn't they have been Seniors with everyone else?

[Bill1978]

Random question - I thought Winston was a Senior but he wasn't in a graduation gown OR shown at all during the graduation ceremony speeches. Did I mishear in the first Episode 1 when he was talking to his mum about moving schools and he wasn't a senior? And if he wasn't a senior why was he on the senior camping trip - they explained Charlie going (which I felt was forced and absurd) so if Winston wasn't a Senior why not throw a lame excuse like he has to takes photos for the yearbook.

[truthaboutluv]

6 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

Random question - I thought Winston was a Senior but he wasn't in a graduation gown OR shown at all during the graduation ceremony speeches.

He was shown. The camera pans to him among the other graduates, during Clay's speech. I can't remember if he was shown during Jessica's, but he was definitely shown during Clay's. 

10 hours ago, BigDfromLA said:

Whatever happened to Sherri and Skye? Wouldn't they have been Seniors with everyone else?

Sherri just disappeared. And the show did some bullshit thing that I'm sure they thought was cute, where when people emailed the address Clay gave the one girl, a "message from Clay" revealed that she'd moved to some other state or something. I believe Skye moved to some other town with relatives to better help her recovery. That one was explained on camera, after she left the treatment hospital and she and Clay essentially broke up. 

[Bill1978]

5 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

He was shown. The camera pans to him among the other graduates, during Clay's speech. I can't remember if he was shown during Jessica's, but he was definitely shown during Clay's. 

Thanks, I might go back and re-watch Clay's speech. Guess I was concentrating too hard looking for everyone and blinked at the wrong moment. :)

[CeeBeeGee]

Working my way through Season 4 and just finished Ep. 6. Jesus. Fucking. Christ, Clay. I just cannot.

I think yet another season crawling up this bougie white guy's nose and hearing his endless thoughts was a mistake. Winston might've been a better choice as narrator, since he is driving much of the action. Or maybe Justin since he is at the center of everything as much as Clay is. Or even Alex since he's the one who actually killed Bryce. Part of the problem is sadly, that Dylan Minette is just not that interesting being front and center THIS much, with endless, endless variations on aNgSt. He doesn't really have a ton of range as an actor--90% of what he's given is some kind of trauma or shock and he seems to deliver all of that the same way, with that slightly slack-jawed expression. Occasionally he is given some sassy, snarky stuff ("Unhelpful Yoda! Unhelpful Yoda!") and he sells that much better, IMO. And I did love the the sad resolve of his final address to I think exploring the long-term trauma of all they've experienced over the past several years is a good choice but I just don't think he's the actor or the character. Right now I want to slap him. And I feel so, so bad for his parents--the SHIT they've had to put up with--and Justin.

I really liked Estella's conversation with Tyler.

Not surprised that Alex is exploring--I called that back in Season 2 when he got an erection after wrestling with Zach.

[nkotb]

We just did a weeks-long watch of the whole series, & wow. It's like a completely different show from the first season. I mean that, because the characters have all changed so very much in an 18-month time-span. 

Some thoughts...

I was so sad at Zach's spiral. He really was a genuinely decent guy, for the most part, & honestly, he's the guy all of the girls would be all over ~ hot, rich, athletic, popular, & nice. I was also sad that he didn't have the balls to tell his boys that he was legit involved with Hannah, but that's kind of a high school thing to do. He really didn't do anything horribly bad, he was the one who exposed the clubhouse, & he still had to carry all of that guilt, & constantly being watched, constantly being worried about when things were going to be found out. I was stunned that he'd beaten Bryce up, especially since he was on crutches/in a boot. My biggest question, Officer Standall basically told Zach "no biggie, Bryce had water in his lungs when he died, you didn't kill him, his injuries could've been from homecoming, which was public. Good luck at the game against Valley!" Why couldn't Standall have pushed to have it seem that Bryce fell in the water of his own accord? He was beaten to a pulp, how did they know he was pushed into the river/ocean & didn't just slip & fall? 

Alex being gay/bi was the least surprising surprise ever, & like the poster upthread, when he popped an erection after wrestling with Zach, it pinged my radar. I can understand, Zach is perfection. I've thought Charlie was bi since he sat with Alex & offered him pot cookies. Something about that scene told me they were going to be more than friends. Having Alex kill Bryce was pretty stupid. I understood when he said Bryce had hurt everyone Alex loves, but he didn't seem like the guy that would do that & then let Clay take the blame. He tried to kill himself after the Hannah tapes were out, he was pretty serious about self-loathing. 

Clay is the kind of guy that doesn't do well in high school, but that he'll rock the hell out of college. He can reinvent himself, get away from the past, he'll be fine. Same with Jessica.

Winston is absolutely the worst. He gave Monty a BJ, then minutes later, Monty publicly beat him up. A few months later, he tells Monty that his parents are gone, so they have a stolen night/weekend together. They basically spent maybe 30 hours together, & that's probably pushing it. Now, he's in love with Monty & has to avenge his name?? Then, while avenging Monty's name, he meets a sexually-questioning Alex, & even though they kissed a handful of times & also spent less than 50 hours together, he's also in love with Alex. Dude needs a dictionary for graduation. 

Monty, so many thoughts. First of all, Tyler's rape was probably the single worst thing I've ever seen on TV/movies, & I watch a lot. I couldn't sleep that night. It was so brutal & graphic, & just so, so jarring. I guess I'm weird, because I assumed that when Monty was in prison, they found out it was for child rape, but I assumed his big mouth was what ultimately got him shanked. The difference we were shown in Monty & Bryce, was that Bryce legit, on some level, cared for his friends & helped them, IE him getting Justin basketball shoes without Justin asking, plus, Bryce had a certain amount of charm when he wanted to, like with Ani. He was still a rapist & got what he deserved, but we were shown glimpses of a non-horrible Bryce. Monty was a straight-up, unrepentant asshole. There was nothing redeemable about him. I'm sorry he struggled with his sexuality, but it's no excuse for how he treated people. I figured he got lippy in prison, & someone took him out. On that note, how did his sister turn out pretty normal? They seemingly had the same parents, unless I missed that they had a different parent. She was normal, didn't show signs of abuse, & was genuinely kind to Tyler, when the ridiculous school shooter drill happened, & Tyler was stuck in the bathroom. 

Finally, Justin, his death was horrid. Like I said, we watched the show in succession, i think we started in May, so I've spent a while with those kids every day. Justin had the most change from the very beginning. It's ironic that he was the subject of Hannah's first tape, thus, the first episode, & his death was the series finale. When i saw the lesion on his neck, it was right after he & Jess were sneaking around, I thought it was a hickey. Even a few episodes before the finale, when Justin had had it for a while, I told my husband that there's no way he'd still be sporting a hickey after all that time. I was flabbergasted when they said he was not only HIV+, but that he had full-blown AIDS. Like another poster, after it was revealed, I was thinking about Tom Hanks in Philadelphia, & it made sense. His final scenes with Clay were beautiful. And "fart" is my absolute least-favorite word, I can't believe I just typed it, & we almost made it through the entire show without anyone saying it, until Ghost Justin said it to Clay, although, it was hysterical the way he said it. Still hate that word, though. 

I was so happy for Tyler at the end, at least having a seed of happiness with Estella. That's totally weird, considering her proximity to Monty, but I was happy to see that he had a glimmer. I was also happy that Tony seemed to be getting a happy-ending, a scholarship & a great guy, who doesn't mind his whack friends. Hopefully he'll get a new hairdo, too. 

We really enjoyed this show. I see why season 4 is being so universally-panned, it's dark, & everyone is pretty unlikable, but the last 2 episodes brought it home. I really grew to love those kids, & I'll miss spending our evenings with them. 

Sorry for the novel. 

[Neurochick]

On 6/16/2020 at 7:59 PM, truthaboutluv said:

However, some people are also straight up assholes and sometimes straight up hateful. And it's not unforgiving or un-Christian like as they try to tell me in church, to say, "no, I don't forget. And no, I don't want anything to do with you". Forgiveness does not mean forgetting. And I've always subscribed to the words of the great Maya Angelou - "when people show you who they are, believe them". And sometimes, what they show you, it ain't good.

I was watching a TV show for children on a Catholic TV channel and a nun on said, to a child who was asking about forgiveness that forgiving someone doesn't mean you'll EVER be friends with them again.  It's saying, "I'm sorry that you have done the wrong thing.  I will pray that eventually you'll see the light."  I thought that, Bryce was in a way responsible for his own situation.  He was the one who broke Zach's leg, really for no reason at all.  Bryce was the one who shot his mouth off when Alex and Jessica truly wanted to help him after finding him beaten up on the pier.  In season 3 Bryce was getting therapy but it didn't work because in the end, he acted like the jerk he always was and IMO it got him killed.  Even Bryce's experiences in the new school he went to didn't change him.  He just had a knee jerk reaction to be a violent person.  

I think a lot of us are used to shows like Law and Order, Major Crimes, The Closer, Cold Case where the murderer gets arrested at the end and all is right with the world.  I think shows like that do a disservice because that's not how the world works a lot of times.  

Now I never understood why Clay felt responsible for Monty's death.  Monty was killed in jail because of what he'd done to Tyler.  

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Neurochick

[truthaboutluv]

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Now I never understood why Clay felt responsible for Monty's death. 

Admittedly I did only watch four episodes, so it's possible I missed something significant. But of the episodes I did watch, I didn't get the sense that Clay felt guilty for Monty's being killed, so much as guilt for their framing him for Bryce's murder. But more than that, I think the real problem with Clay is one, he already had a history of mental illness and two, the million secrets and lies he was keeping caught up with him and caused him to have a mental breakdown. 

Because it wasn't just framing Monty for Bryce's murder, he was also keeping the secret of Tyler's almost shooting up their school and their helping to cover it up. And mixed in with that was all the other shit that had happened that he was still dealing with and coming to terms with - Jeff's death, Hannah's suicide, learning all the ways Bryce was a horrible piece of shit and all the girls he assaulted, etc. Not to mention that although he got off, Clay came very close to being officially arrested for murder and having to face a trial. And as we saw, he still had flashes and nightmares of being in a jail cell. 

That's why I liked the scene of his therapist telling him he was holding in a lot and it was time to let it out. As Clay noted in his graduation speech, in two years he lost three people he loved. Then his path crossed with a rapist douche-bag whose murder he later got accused of and a violent psycho who tried to kill him once. And that's not even counting the failed relationship with Skye, conflicting emotions of going from being an only child to having a step-brother of sorts. It was just a lot and he wasn't really dealing with or talking about any of it. Of course the kid snapped. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by truthaboutluv

[CeeBeeGee]

 

On 6/6/2020 at 12:45 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

This season I haven't minded Ani as much and I think that's mostly because she isn't front and center for every episode. If they had brought her on last season the way they've brought in Winston this season (meaning as a secondary/peripheral character rather than a replacement for Hannah), I wouldn't have minded having her around. They're using Winston the right amount so far. He's around and he's interacting with many of the main characters be it isn't ALL WINSTON ALL THE TIME the way it was with Ani last season.

I agree! This is the correct amount of Ani. She is a good character, IMO, and I like the actress. Just don't make her front and center, sharing her insights with us about characters that we know better than her, and we'll be fine.

On 6/6/2020 at 4:10 PM, Constant Viewer said:

Yes, that is Gary Sinise, but he is arguably more well known for playing Lt. Dan from Forrest Gump

And Stu in the miniseries The Stand!

On 6/6/2020 at 4:35 PM, tennisgurl said:

I love how at Liberty, when your a jock, you just do ALL of the sports, be it basketball, baseball, or football. 

I noticed this as well. It's especially ridiculous that Justin--small, slight, however athletically talented Justin--is on the football and basketball teams. Whatever, I adore Justin and the actor, I'll let it slide 🙂

On 6/6/2020 at 7:05 PM, NUguy514 said:

I just watched Episode 7, and it's hilarious that Clay was just so easily able to trick his way out of the hospital.  He's ranting out loud to himself by himself all over town, he stole and waved a gun around like an actually crazy person last episode, yet he's somehow "not a danger to himself."  He's so obviously fucked up and crazy that it makes absolutely no sense that he hasn't been expelled and committed to a mental institution, rather than scoring an interview with Brown (I honestly thought he'd actually submitted the application himself in a psychotic break since he seems to be dissociating and losing large chunks of time).  By the way, my job is tangentially part of the college admissions process, and interviews are the least important part of applications.  They also do not happen at the actual high schools students attend during school hours; Clay's interview at a coffee shop was, by far, the most realistic.

The Clay Pass this season has been un-fucking-believable and it's a big part of why I don't care for the character as much. He grabbed the security officer's gun out of its holster and he's not DEAD? Seriously? He walked into a police station claiming to have a gun and he's not DEAD? Seriously? Must be nice being an upper middle class white kid.

On 6/7/2020 at 1:07 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Movies always make it seem like prom is The Most Important Dance of the Year (and sometimes the only dance of the year) so that's a fair assumption to make. My high school had a lot of dances, but the three fancy ones where you were supposed to dress up and have corsages were homecoming in the fall, winter formal (duh, in the winter), and then prom in the spring. We also had lots of casual dances (meaning people didn't get super dressed up) throughout the year (Sadie Hawkins, sock hop, etc).

Also, ever since Carrie came out in '76, a lot of movie/series have made reference to the spring dance as being THE dance, the most important social event of the year, where dramatic things happen.

On 6/7/2020 at 3:12 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Despite what American tv shows sometimes portray, that's not the standard way that American kids get into college either! You definitely do NOT need to travel to the university for an interview (to meet with the dean as Justin did at the college where Clay's dad works) and you don't need to interview with a local alumni/recruiter. You don't have to interview at all. Most students just send in the application with their transcripts, SAT scores, etc. and then wait to get an acceptance or rejection letter.

At least back when I was applying, for a good school, you had to have an interview. So Clay and Jessica definitely would've had to sit down. (But not at school. That was weird.) It's obvious they used the idea of the interviews to explore the trauma the characters are experiencing.

On 6/7/2020 at 3:17 AM, NUguy514 said:

I had noticed the scars on Justin's face and body and had wondered if they were Kaposi-sarcoma lesions, and then I thought, "They wouldn't just randomly in the series fucking finale kill off Justin with fucking AIDS."  And then, they did exactly that.  I had a moment of being furious, and then I realized it was the perfect way to end this spectacularly shitty season.  I couldn't even be moved at the very well-acted scenes between Justin and Jessica and Justin and Clay because I was so over it.  And of course, Justin dies tragically, and suddenly everything at Liberty High is fine!  The jocks are cool, Diego's cool, Winston's cool, the police are cool, everybody's cool.  Justin brought peace in death!  Bryce and Monty hurt people, and they were evil, but they were also sympathetic, and hurt people hurt people or something, and now everyone is so fine!

I was wondering if the lesions on his body were a harbinger of AIDS--but then I thought "Wait, doesn't AIDS take forever to manifest nowadays? And can't they prolong it pretty much interminably?" I will say, Justin's scenes in the hospital room had me bawling. Flynn is a phenomenal actor, one of the best of his generation IMO, and Alisha Boe is also excellent. (They all are. For all my problems, the cast is excellent.)

On 6/7/2020 at 3:18 AM, Bill1978 said:

Is it standard practice to write a essay to get into college though? Because in Australia kids normally just sit exams and get a magic number (that no one truly understands how it is obtained) and wait to see if they meet the magic cut off mark. They don't need to talk themselves up in an essay unless its for early admission. And obviously talent based courses require an audition.

Yes, essays are common in the States, for any kind of competitive school.

On 6/7/2020 at 1:16 PM, Neurochick said:

One more thing:  Bryce and Monty did awful things when they were angry.  Bryce broke Zach's leg because he was pissed off at him, thinking his ex girlfriend left him for Zach.  Monty was angry all the time due to an abusive father I believe.  But Alex did the same thing.  He started to help Bryce until Bryce opened his mouth and started talking shit, so Alex pushed him into the river. 

Bryce raped many girls--not because he was angry but because he felt entitled to do so. Afterward, he threw his actions in his mother's face and then enjoyed an erection while reminiscing about them. (One of the all-time creepiest moments of the entire series.)

Monty had time to plan Tyler's rape (enlisted two colleagues, found a broom/mop). He was angry about losing his season but he had time to consider.

On 6/7/2020 at 7:56 PM, bettername2come said:

I forgot about how annoying Ryan and Courtney are. I appreciate that they brought back some of the season 1 people who weren't terrible, but I can't say that those two feel like the core friend group. Not that I can say Charlie does either and he's been great. But I really can't see Ryan or Courtney texting some emergency to the rest of them. They didn't feel like they fit. 

Courtney kind of redeemed herself during Season 2 (and she hugged Clay at the dance as part of the At Least We Tried to Get Justice League) but did we ever see Ryan again after his shitty behavior in Season 1?

On 6/20/2020 at 12:17 PM, Mark Kesner said:

Brandon Flynn's role as Justin Foley was stepped up for season 4, as well. A lot of dark sadness was developed in his character. Justin's character went from popular high school jock in season 1 to a deep tragedy in season 4. Brandon evolved with his character's deepening in a compelling way. I'm sure that Brandon found Season 4 his greatest acting opportunity for the this franchise, the season for which he'll be most remembered. He should also get an award!

In a cast of uniformly excellent actors (even Minette, whom I'm not crazy about, I just don't think he should've been the FRONT AND CENTER of this season), I find Flynn's acting absolutely extraordinary. He says so much with his eyes--he's really very, very good.

[Nozycat]

Just finished the final season although I almost gave up part of the way through, all the hallucinations and especially the camping trip were doing my head in and felt like the writers were high on drugs.  I am glad I hung in because I did like the last 2 eps and feels like closure for me.  I loved the first season but in subsequent seasons felt super frustrated that none of them learned from the first that keeping secrets just creates a mess, they just kept doing the same things over and over.  And when they finally did tell some secrets it was for the wrong reasons, imo, and still didn't tell everything.  I was also frustrated with how much stuff they got away with, especially Clay.  And how did no one notice how unwell he was or the marks on Justin's skin?  Overall I wish I had just stuck to the first season as the rest felt very frustrating to me.

[namelessmonster]

Did all the writers get fired after season 3? Holy moly, So cheesy. Yes cheesier than that line. Season 4 was lacking and all over the place. Clay was losing his sh!t the whole time. The weird unexpected, unnecessary death at the end. I would have rather seen all the characters get it together and go off to college and be free of their "secret". This show touches on problems teens face yes but how much can these people take? It's over kill. Can they ever be happy for more than half an episode? 😔

[SunnyBeBe]

I’m late to season 4, but nothing lost. It was ridiculous, imo.  Omg, just nonsense. Those whiny kids were pathetic.  Complaining all the time. In case they weren’t aware, students have very few rights at school.  Their stunts were seriously dangerous and illegal.  How can Clay commit TWO felonies and no repercussions?  What?  He tries suicide by cop and doesn’t get an involuntary hold for inpatient evaluation?  He must be the most self involved character ever.  He was a danger to himself and others. Yet, he’s rewarded.   Terrible for this show to have sent that message.  Ha, maybe a new series with Clay and a buddy serving time in prison.  

[elianoraflom]

I am still thinking about the consequences of characters' actions that the show was trying to show. Even if they weren't immediately apparent. Clay's suicide attempt had a profound impact on his friends and family, he had to deal with the legal consequences of his actions.

Even though Clay and the other characters didn't get the punishment they deserved, they still had to pay a price for their actions...