Season 4 Talk

[ElectricBoogaloo]

3 minutes ago, Bill1978 said:

Is it standard practice to write a essay to get into college though? Because in Australia kids normally just sit exams and get a magic number (that no one truly understands how it is obtained) and wait to see if they meet the magic cut off mark. They don't need to talk themselves up in an essay unless its for early admission. And obviously talent based courses require an audition.

Yes, most college applications have an essay portion, but a lot of them give a pretty generic question (like the one on Clay's Brown application) that gives them a lot of flexibility to talk about anything.

As someone who read college essays for a scholarship fund, a lot of them end up sounding very similar but I can say with certainty that Clay's "I covered up a murder" essay would have stood out a lot more than Ani's robot metaphor essay!

American colleges look at high school GPA, SAT/ACT test scores, extracurricular activities/leadership roles, and essays. Obviously if you're outstanding in all areas, you're more likely to be admitted but if you're slightly deficient in one of those things then the other factors can balance that out. The goal is to take a more holistic look at each student and have more well rounded students.

If you get a 1600 on your SAT, you will have lots of offers regardless of the other areas of your application. But if you get a 1200 on your SAT and have been in the same activities for 2-3 years (meaning you didn't just join a bunch of clubs your senior year when you realized you should look more involved for your college application) then you have a decent chance of getting accepted at several schools as well.

The reason interviews don't count for much is that interviewers realize that these are 17-18 year old kids so most of them are probably not going to dazzle anyone during interviews. Even though Clay and Justin were not great during theirs, that isn't going to impact whether they get admitted. This is especially true for Clay since he's had good grades throughout high school and I'm assuming he did well on his SATs.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

S4.E9: Prom

Quote

When the dean begins a new investigation and threatens to cancel prom, the friends decide to confide in their parents...but not about everything.

Ironic how Dean Foundry is dealing with a walkout over the security officers' violence with just more punishment. I was glad that Jess made sure to point that out.

And once again, Diego showed his true colors. First he got all controlling boyfriend by saying, "If I look at your phone there won't be any texts to Justin?" which was way out of line because again, YOU DON'T OWN JESS. She can text whoever the fuck she wants. And no, you don't get to look at her phone. She doesn't need to prove shit to you. He already creeped me out in the previous episode when he closed her book in the middle of their conversation. That is as classic abuser move to try to control the environment and subtly threaten to force the victim to engage with them. And this time he threw stuff off of the table, put his finger in her face, and told her not to laugh at him. If that isn't classic abuser behavior, I don't know what is. Like so many people who present themselves as nice guys, he's just suppressing his true asshole nature.

Thank goodness Clay finally told the others the truth about his dissociation. When he told his therapist that he keeps secrets FOR his friends, I was like OMG stop with this white knight bull shit. JUST TELL THEM!

I laughed so hard at how offended Matt and Lainie looked that the kids didn't know who Gordon Lightfoot was.

Charlie's plan to tell their parents some of the truth to earn back their trust and get back the prom in order to get the investigation to ease off was smart. Not only did it get the parents to trust them again, it allowed the kids to let go of some of the secrets that have been eating them up. Asking for their help to get the prom back was perfect too because people like to hold prom up as the quintessential high school experience. No matter how jaded a parent is or how jaded they believe their kid is, prom is something that they can believe their kid wants to go to. And realistically, after all the students have been through, they deserve something from a normal high school experience like dressing up, getting in limos, and taking pictures at the prom.

Andrew McCarthy as Charlie's dad! I loved their conversation about Eli Manning.

I am not a fan of promposals, but I laughed at Alex obliviously walking past a huge picture of himself and a giant sign saying, "ALEX, LOOK OVER HERE!" But it was so mean when he just walked right past Charlie holding balloons and flowers. Charlie gets points for persistence though. I agreed with Alex that all the face signs were creepy.

As silly as all the promposals were, it was nice to take a break from all the angst and murder and let the kids have a few minutes to be normal high school kids doing normal high school things. Everyone should have a few hours to forget all the shitty things in life and just have fun with their friends. I was also glad to finally see a dance that wasn't tainted by the ghost of Hannah.

I totally cracked up when Tyler started talking about how he had to reassess his sorting criteria.

Ugh, Winston is totally delusional. He really thinks he loved Monty, a guy who beat the shit out of him and had sex with him twice? That isn't love. He shouldn't need hallucination Monty to tell him that.

When Alex and Charlie couldn't get one of the doors open at the prom venue, I was sure the were going to find Foundry and the police doing something super shady, but nope, just Zach one step closer to falling off the cliff.

When Charlie and Alex were announced the prom kings, I was afraid that the football team set it up because they had some sort of Carrie prank planned. That made it hard for me to relax while Alex and Charlie were dancing. I was so relieved to see that no one did anything to them and everyone was genuinely happy for them.

Diego looked genuinely pained when he saw Jess and Justin together. Now the question is if he will still keep her secret knowing that she's in love with Justin?

The show lulled me into a false sense of security because everything was going so well at the dance. I stupidly thought that we would get to have one final dance that was free of tragedy until the very last minute when Justin collapsed. I mean, that's my own fault for believing that we could have just ONE dance that didn't involve copious amounts of crying or the cops showing up.

I'm still not convinced that Justin will be the one to die though. I'm sure it's someone connected to the football team (hence Charlie speaking at the funeral wearing a jersey over his shirt and tie) but Justin hasn't played with any teams recently so wearing jerseys to his funeral wouldn't really make as much sense as someone who was an active member of a team. Maybe Diego goes on a bender because he finally realizes he's not getting Jess back?

Of the main characters, Zach is clearly still spiraling (telling Foundry that if he flunks out, he'll just go work in fast food, doing coke at the prom, taking a bat to anything glass during the school walkout) but I really hope he pulls himself together. I hope he isn't the one who dies!

Edited June 7, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

S4.E10: Graduation

Quote

Strengthened by the struggles they've endured, the friends say goodbye to high school and look toward the future in an emotional series finale.

Dr. Ellis Grey! Poor Justin. They did a great job dropping subtle hints about his HIV status because earlier in the season, I remember thinking wait, did he always have that mark on his neck? And then later in the season, I thought did he always have that mark on the side of his forehead? I haven't rewatched any of the seasons so I thought maybe I'd just forgotten that he had them, but I googled pictures from S1 and sure enough, he did not have them previously.

I felt everyone's frustration with Zach when he said he couldn't come up to see Justin. He had a valid reason for not wanting to go into that particular hospital, but I loved that Charlie told him he'd experienced something similar and basically told him to get his shit together (and as someone who's been in a waiting room that's full of people you love, I understand how terrible it is to be in that situation).

Even more than that, I loved when Alex went to find him. The silent conversation that Clay, Alex, and Charlie had while Zach was hugging Clay cracked me up.

I really wish that we had seen Clay apologize to Justin for all of the terrible things he said to him this season, from accusing him of switching their drug tests to flat out telling him that Matt and Lainie were only HIS parents.

Arturo's talk with Tony was what so many immigrant parents never actually say out loud to their kids. They left behind everything they know in the hopes that their kids could have a better life. I'm glad that he told Tony to sell the shop and go to college.

Blech, more Bryce? NO THANKS, SHOW.

Awwww, Coach Kerba is the best. I was wondering what that letter said when Zach stole it so it was nice to learn that it was all positive things. I know Zach's grades dropped spring semester but shouldn't he still be able to get into some colleges? I mean, I'm glad that the coach offered him a job, but even with one bad semester of grades, his GPA should be high enough to get into a CSU. He could also go to community college and transfer to a 4 year college.

As nice as it was to see so many people in the waiting room, where were all of these other people in the last year? Clay and co were the only ones who gave a shit about Justin after everything that happened with Bryce in S1/S2. I'm just glad that he was able to have a little bit of normalcy and safety after Lainie and Matt adopted him. The very least that kids deserve is to have a safe place to live - a roof over their heads, food on the table, clean clothes to wear, and a warm bed. Justin wasn't getting that at his mom's house so as fucked up as his life was, I'm really glad that for a short time, he had a loving home where he wasn't afraid of getting beat up or going to bed hungry. I know he was still under stress from all the murder secrets, but at least he had his basic needs met for a little while.

I can't believe that Alex was stupid enough to confess everything to Winston. I KNEW he was recording it!

I'm not a therapist so I'm not sure how much is professional versus unprofessional to tell a patient about your personal life, but I cracked up when Clay scoffed at the idea of Dr. Ellman being a troubled kid and then the therapist told him some of the things he'd done in the 60s and 70s. Like so many other people, Clay focuses on his own pain (which is understandable since he's a teenager and he's been through a lot) so hearing that someone else went through some shit and came out the other side can help. And hearing how Dr. Ellman's teacher believed in him helped Clay understand that he's not just in it for the paycheck.

But all that aside, Dr. Ellman knew Clay had been doing disturbing things while dissociating and he thought it was okay to just let him go home? That doesn't seem very safe for anyone.

Courtney and Ryan came back to watch graduation - WHY? I guess if you're from a small town, there's nothing better to do when you're home for summer vacation. Okay, fine, it was to bury the Hannah tapes but still. When I saw them in the audience I was like really?

It always cracks me up when the school administration insists on getting speeches ahead of time so that they can approve them. You can always submit a safe or saccharine speech to get approved and then say whatever you want once you have the microphone. As long as you can say what you want before they shut off the mic, there's nothing they can do!

Heh, I was kind of hoping that after all the "choose to live" stuff, Clay would end his speech with Jessica's "fuck the patriarchy!"

No amount of backstory or ghost sightings made me change my mind about how awful Bryce and Monty were. Sorry not sorry, show. Not even Jessica's rationalization that the rest of them became friends because of Bryce helped.

The two best endings were Zach getting into music school and Tony leaving for Nevada. The other endings (Jessica getting into Cal, Clay going to Brown) were fine but expected. I was mostly just glad that so many of them were finally getting the fuck out of Evergreen so that they can start over. They all still need a lot of therapy, but being able to escape the town where every street reminds them of something awful that happened will be good for them.

[starri]

5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

When Charlie and Alex were announced the prom kings, I was afraid that the football team set it up because they had some sort of Carrie prank planned. That made it hard for me to relax while Alex and Charlie were dancing. I was so relieved to see that no one did anything to them and everyone was genuinely happy for them.

I really did enjoy the switcheroo where afterward, Foundry came up to them, and you have every expectation that he's doing to say something at the very least insensitive...and then he introduces his husband.

I do call bullshit on the football team, which has been nothing but toxic from the first season, would stuff the ballot box and cheer for a same-sex couple, QB or not.  It would be much more realistic for them to beat up Charlie and demand he be thrown off the team.

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Courtney and Ryan came back to watch graduation - WHY? I guess if you're from a small town, there's nothing better to do when you're home for summer vacation. Okay, fine, it was to bury the Hannah tapes but still. When I saw them in the audience I was like really?

I was more confused by the presence of Courtney's dads.  What was the point of that?

I also had a hard time realizing who the third person that Clay had loved that he'd lost.  I figured out eventually that he meant Jeff, but they shouldn't have made me work for it.  Would it have killed them to include a shot of Jeff, Hannah, and Justin sitting together in the bleachers?

[Neurochick]

10 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

You definitely do NOT need to travel to the university for an interview (to meet with the dean as Justin did at the college where Clay's dad works) and you don't need to interview with a local alumni/recruiter. You don't have to interview at all. Most students just send in the application with their transcripts, SAT scores, etc. and then wait to get an acceptance or rejection letter.

I went to HS many years ago and it was done at that time.  In fact, my former boss and her husband took their son to a lot of different colleges, and that was just in 2011.

I don't think the show is trying to "humanize" Bryce or Monty.  I mean those people WERE human beings.  That's the point.  People who do criminal acts aren't some different species, they are human beings, which makes things scarier. 

This was why my last post eluded to the White Bear episode of Black Mirror (also on Netflix).  During the first two seasons, these kids were victimized by Bryce and Monty and we felt for them.  Then in season 3 Bryce and Monty are violently taken of the story, so to speak.  How does that make all of them feel? 

One more thing:  Bryce and Monty did awful things when they were angry.  Bryce broke Zach's leg because he was pissed off at him, thinking his ex girlfriend left him for Zach.  Monty was angry all the time due to an abusive father I believe.  But Alex did the same thing.  He started to help Bryce until Bryce opened his mouth and started talking shit, so Alex pushed him into the river. 

Edited June 7, 2020 by Neurochick

[ElectricBoogaloo]

24 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I went to HS many years ago and it was done at that time.  In fact, my former boss and her husband took their son to a lot of different colleges, and that was just in 2011.

I applied to college long before 2011 and although I did visit some colleges to check out the campuses, I didn’t interview anywhere. I still got into all the schools I applied to (and I’m guessing my grades were nowhere near as good as Clay’s).

Interviews have been and are still done (I never said otherwise in my previous post) but they aren’t necessary for admission and they don’t carry the weight that tv shows and movies would have people believe.

31 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Bryce and Monty did awful things when they were angry.  Bryce broke Zach's leg because he was pissed off at him, thinking his ex girlfriend left him for Zach. 

Bryce also raped several girls and he didn’t seem to be the least bit angry when he raped Hannah, Jess, or Chloe. He was a predator who felt entitled to have sex with them.

[NUguy514]

30 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I went to HS many years ago and it was done at that time.  In fact, my former boss and her husband took their son to a lot of different colleges, and that was just in 2011.

Well, touring a number of colleges is very common among the more privileged students who can afford those tours, but very few schools actually require an interview as part of a student's application.

1 hour ago, starri said:

I really did enjoy the switcheroo where afterward, Foundry came up to them, and you have every expectation that he's doing to say something at the very least insensitive...and then he introduces his husband.

I told Charlie and Alex through my television like a totally sane person that they needed to work on their gaydar because I'd clocked Foundry's being gay from his first appearance.

1 hour ago, starri said:

I do call bullshit on the football team, which has been nothing but toxic from the first season, would stuff the ballot box and cheer for a same-sex couple, QB or not.  It would be much more realistic for them to beat up Charlie and demand he be thrown off the team.

Yeah, it also rang very false to me that the football team was cheering so hard for them.  I mean, I was glad, but this is the same team that has a culture of systematically raping girls, so it doesn't feel right that they'd be so gay-friendly.  But yay?

I did laugh heartily at the Eli Manning argument Charlie and his dad had because Andrew McCarthy was so right.  And I would never in one million years call Eli Manning anything close to beautiful, but there's no accounting for taste, I suppose.

5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

They did a great job dropping subtle hints about his HIV status because earlier in the season, I remember thinking wait, did he always have that mark on his neck? And then later in the season, I thought did he always have that mark on the side of his forehead? I haven't rewatched any of the seasons so I thought maybe I'd just forgotten that he had them, but I googled pictures from S1 and sure enough, he did not have them previously.

That was one of my issues with this, though.  I thought the lesions looked like Kaposi sarcoma, and I didn't understand why no one in the world of the show seemed to be concerned about, or even notice, these obvious marks developing on Justin.  It felt like at least Matt and Lainie would've made him get those checked out.  It was a nice hint to us audience members who might know what we were looking at, but the characters on the show should've been concerned, too.

6 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Bryce also raped several girls and he didn’t seem to be the least bit angry when he raped Hannah, Jess, or Chloe. He was a predator who felt entitled to have sex with them.

I'll add to that that I don't think Monty seemed particularly angry so much as sadistically gleeful when he raped Tyler with that mop handle.

[Racj82]

On 6/5/2020 at 6:39 PM, Bill1978 said:

 

My only criticism is that there are only 10 episodes. It is doing my head in that the 4th season didn't stick to the 13 episode blueprint of the previous season.

 

My God no. I looked to see if it was only 10 episodes and was thrilled to see that it was. The show never needed to be 13 episodes outside of the first season and doesnt really need to exist now. The episodes are also almost a legit hour. Thank God it's only 10. They probably could have done it in 6 or 8.

On 6/5/2020 at 9:17 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

 

Diego was being so gross and unfortunately, Jess fell for it. I hope Clay finally tells his friends the truth about what's been going on so that at the very least Jess stays the hell away from Diego. Anyone who would torture someone like that (and have the nerve to call it a prank) is not someone you want to date.

 

Half of the characters on this show seem to be somewhere in the lgbtq spectrum so I'm sure he is. Not hating. That seems to be the standard of teen shows now. I would just assume most teens sexual fluid now based on TV. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

3 hours ago, starri said:

do call bullshit on the football team, which has been nothing but toxic from the first season, would stuff the ballot box and cheer for a same-sex couple, QB or not.  It would be much more realistic for them to beat up Charlie and demand he be thrown off the team.

Especially since Charlie wasn’t even a senior! The only criteria for prom king/queen is being a senior (at least at my school).

I assumed that the football players tolerated Charlie because he was on the team but that they weren’t really friends with him after he stood up to them in S3 and sided with Clay & co since this made him publicly not on the side of Bryce/Monty/the team. I know he was still seen with Luke and some of the other jocks throughout the season at school but he was never part of the dickish things they did (like showing up at the pier to confront Zach) so I don’t know why the team would want him to be prom king, let alone with Alex who openly hated Bryce. 

3 hours ago, starri said:

I also had a hard time realizing who the third person that Clay had loved that he'd lost.  I figured out eventually that he meant Jeff, but they shouldn't have made me work for it. 

When Clay said he lost three people he loved, my reaction was “Wait, Hannah, Justin, and... who else died?” A few minutes later, I remembered Jeff who I don’t think has been mentioned since S1 (was he brought up during the trial in S2? I can’t remember). I agree that it would have been great to have a shot of Hannah, Justin, and Jeff watching graduation together. 

3 hours ago, starri said:

I was more confused by the presence of Courtney's dads.  What was the point of that?

Honestly, I thought it was just an excuse to let as many of the S1 characters return for the series finale because their presence wasn’t necessary at all. 

[Giuseppe]

5 hours ago, starri said:

I also had a hard time realizing who the third person that Clay had loved that he'd lost.  I figured out eventually that he meant Jeff, but they shouldn't have made me work for it. 

Was Jeff the kid who died in the traffic accident that Sherri caused because she took out the stop sign? Do I have that right? I need to re-watch season one.

3 hours ago, NUguy514 said:

That was one of my issues with this, though.  I thought the lesions looked like Kaposi sarcoma, and I didn't understand why no one in the world of the show seemed to be concerned about, or even notice, these obvious marks developing on Justin.  It felt like at least Matt and Lainie would've made him get those checked out.  It was a nice hint to us audience members who might know what we were looking at, but the characters on the show should've been concerned, too.

I noticed, but these kids are always showing up somewhere with bruises and cuts and scrapes since they seem to get in fights 24/7, so I kept thinking they were bruises from some fight from a previous episode I had forgotten about. Maybe that's what the others thought too? Matt and Lainie maybe assumed he was getting into some scuffles when he went back to his old neighborhood. 

There were so many confusing things this season that kind of just took me out of it. The camping episode, for example. Just how big were these woods that 3/4 of the senior class wasn't even seen during the scavenger hunt when everyone was disappearing and being terrorized? Alex's dad and Clay's mom realized the real clues had been ditched, but never seemed to follow up? Clay shows up at the end with the prize bags yelling about being down a hole that he was pushed into and Alex's dad is just like...ok, the bonfire's ready? It was just too weird. And were those two adults the only chaperones? It didn't even seem like Clay's mom was going until the night before when she gave the boys the camping equipment.

Also, there was WAY too much going on with this class for nobody to have been expelled at some point, lol. Liberty High must be making the local news on a daily basis!

[Neurochick]

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Bryce also raped several girls and he didn’t seem to be the least bit angry when he raped Hannah, Jess, or Chloe. He was a predator who felt entitled to have sex with them.

I am not saying that Bryce wasn't.  I'm not sure it was right for Alex to throw him in the river though.  I never liked Bryce and I wanted someone to wipe that smirk of his face.  I would have preferred it if he was killed by a woman he raped, or if Justin had killed him after he raped Jessica.   But, even though Bryce was a dick, he posed no physical threat to Alex, that's my issue with his murder.

Monty was killed in jail because they don't like child molesters in jail, period end of story.  The fact that he was framed had NOTHING to do with his murder.

At the end of season 2, Tyler had every intention to walk into that dance and shoot it up.  The only thing that stopped him were his friends (I think it was Clay, Tony and Alex and Alex's dad maybe?).  Now, if things went south and Tyler shot up the dance, would anybody care that Monty raped him?  Just a question.

I had another question.  Why was Monty taken to jail so quickly?  I don't remember Bryce being sent to jail, even though he raped dozens of women.  The answer is probably that Bryce's family had money but I'm not sure.

This season should have been called:  How to Get Away With Murder.😉

 

Edited June 7, 2020 by Neurochick

[bettername2come]

Episode 9:

"Gary. I'm going to start calling you Gary now." I love sassy Jessica. 

I'm glad I graduated before the promposal craze. Charlie went completely crazy with it. Alex was right that the classroom full of Charlie's was creepy. 

Aw, Clay asked Justin if he'd love him any less if he was gay. It's nice to see boys not avoiding the word "love." And Tony kissing him on the cheek later all "I love you, man" was adorable too. And then Ani talking about how much she loved her friends to Winston. I like the emphasis of platonic love going on.

Was Winston kissing air?

All right, big blonde football player's enthusiasm for Charlie and Alex's prom kings' win was cute. "I'm so proud of those boys. And just a little bit jealous. Which makes me realize I'm still in fucking high school." Well, Tony, it's hard for all of us to remember you are. Justin looked downright debonair when he showed up at prom. 

For a minute I thought they could get through a dance with no tragedy. What a fool I was. 

[Bill1978]

On 6/7/2020 at 2:26 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Did we really need a five minute sci fi dream sequence just so we knew Clay felt guilty?

No we didn't but I admit I enjoyed it. Especially since it seems the writer was having some fun with mocking the teen dystopian genre. Random terms thrown about like the audience knows what it all means when regular everyday terms would be fine, some lame way to justify why teens have to save the world and not adults. I kind of wish it was a real movie, even if it did feel very much like the movie The 5th Wave.

On 6/7/2020 at 2:26 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Jess supposedly burned the last existing tape that Bryce sent so who still had a copy and then gave it to Winston?

I thought the exact same thing. I thought Jess had the last tape. Maybe Clay made a copy during one of his blackout moments.

20 hours ago, bettername2come said:

Damn with the timely protests scenes. 

I cannot wait for the 'deep thinkers' of the socials to start posting in about a years time how 13 Reasons Why predicted the protests or knew about police targeting people of colour over white people.

My Episode 8 thoughts are that I am a bit surprised that it took the students of the school to do something about the drill etc. The parents (except for Clay's da) seemed to think it was perfectly OK for the school to terrorize the students and the staff. My only issue with the protest is that the crowd didn't look big enough. I understand costs associated with extras but the show presented the protest as being the entire school (especially when Alex and Zach were inside the school), but the numbers out side looked like about 2 classes worth of seniors.

It totally sucks that Justin is back on the drugs. I guess seeing Jess kissing Diego was the straw that pushed him over the edge with his mother's death. I was so hoping he would last a season without the drugs. He has just moved up the ranks for being in the coffin.

And I see the show is now trying to make me think Diego isn't a total douche by having him save Justin from that guard.

I think my favourite part of the episode was Zach's casual rioting in the principal's office. I've never seen such calm breaking of stuff on TV before. It was like he was thinking I don't really want to break things but the police will be expecting it so I better break some glass etc.

And I finally get the answers to who A is. It's Clay, and I'm assuming that it is genuine and he doesn't remember doing all that stuff at all.

And as ridiculous as some of the stuff has gotten on this show, it's still far more enjoyable and believable than whatever it is Riverdale has become.

[bettername2come]

Episode 10: I did not think this was going to be the last episode before reading the description as I started it. I assumed there were 13.

All right, didn't imagine that Justin would be dying of AIDS. HIV positive, sure, but I can't believe he hasn't been tested during rehab or something for it to have progressed that far. And I know they said he had to give permission to be tested, but, it seems like if you're doing blood work on an intravenous drug user that would just be be part of the routine tests. Gary Sinise made good points about Justin having issues and thinking he wasn't worth saving. Justin's essay about Clay as his positive influence was nice, but it made me sad thinking about how Clay saved him, but the tragedy that he saved him too late. 

Sheriff Diaz being nice to Clay was nice and surprising. God, Clay is lucky he hasn't been shot by the cops yet. I enjoyed his scene with Alex's dad, too. I didn't remember Diaz showing signs of being suspicious of Alex before, but let's face it, so much has happened I never quite know what I'm forgetting. 

"'Safe' is not a word I believe in anymore." Yeah, I can't blame Tony for saying that. 

It was kind of nice to hear Alex say he didn't love Justin or like him. Which makes sense, but I appreciate that he still supported his friends. As much as we hear about how tight-knit this group is, it's nice that not everyone came together and became best friends no matter what their circumstances are. 

I'd almost forgotten about the guy who died in a car accident in the season 1 flashbacks until Clay referenced 3 people he loved who died. I appreciated Clay being open about his anxiety and depression in the speech. "I don't actually see ghosts." 'I know, you wrote my paper on magical realism." I also liked his point about falling for girls too fast immediately before flirting with the girl going to Brown. 

I forgot about how annoying Ryan and Courtney are. I appreciate that they brought back some of the season 1 people who weren't terrible, but I can't say that those two feel like the core friend group. Not that I can say Charlie does either and he's been great. But I really can't see Ryan or Courtney texting some emergency to the rest of them. They didn't feel like they fit. 

Gary Sinise has been a treasure this season. I look forward to someday seeing Dylan Minnette in something where he gets to be happy. Ever since he was a kid on an episode of Supernatural, it's like everything goes wrong for his characters. 

[PinkRibbons]

Did Katherine Langford actually return for the series finale? The shot of her on the bleachers had the air of reused footage, but I'm not sure.

I legitimately spent most of the season positive that someone was drugging Clay. And then the fact that Charlie's cookies were brought up more then once had me side-eying him a lot as the possible culprit (except we never saw Clay eat any of the cookies).

It seems bizarre to me that Clay didn't film and distribute the parents' meeting where they straight up crow about tracking their children and reading their texts and emails (let alone endorsing that shooter drill which WHAT THE FUCK, you don't save people from trauma by pre-traumatizing them. Loved Clay's speech, especially emphasizing that this was being done to children).

You can't tell me a legal fight about students' right to privacy wouldn't erupt if the school's spying program leaked to the national media. Especially since some of those seniors have to be 18 already; I wonder if they were tracked with those same apps.

[bettername2come]

22 minutes ago, PinkRibbons said:

Especially since some of those seniors have to be 18 already; I wonder if they were tracked with those same apps.

Clay's 18. So yeah.

[NUguy514]

42 minutes ago, bettername2come said:

All right, didn't imagine that Justin would be dying of AIDS. HIV positive, sure, but I can't believe he hasn't been tested during rehab or something for it to have progressed that far. And I know they said he had to give permission to be tested, but, it seems like if you're doing blood work on an intravenous drug user that would just be be part of the routine tests.

Yeah, I have a reallllly hard time believing he wouldn't have had a full bloodwork panel done, which would include testing for all STDs; I'm almost positive that's a requirement at reputable drug rehab facilities, especially given that he was an intravenous drug user.  Of course, if I have my timeline right, Justin was prostituting himself in the middle of his junior year, which was maybe 15-18 months before he died of AIDS.  That's...a really fast progression.  Even if left untreated, it takes HIV, on average, around ten years to progress to AIDS, and it takes AIDS itself 1-2 years to be fatal; obviously, lifestyle choices (smoking, drug use, etc) can accelerate that timeline quite a bit, but to contract HIV and die of AIDS all within 18 months seems to be pushing it.

Frankly, though, this is one of many instances this season where the show was clearly not concerned with portraying things realistically.

[Bill1978]

Episode 9 was lovely. And I don't care how many teen drama tropes it used. Sometimes it's nice just to have a basically happy episode in a teen drama.

All of Charlie's promposal made me smile and the fact that Alex ignored them all. Especially after I had tears of laughter with Ani referencing 10 Things I Hate About You with her promposal to Jess. No joke, my school is currently experimenting with no bells so I have to take a microphone with me on lunch duty to let them know break time is over. The whole time I had the urge to sing that song and when I mentioned that to the students they all had no idea what movie I was talking about. There loss when this pop reference appears during their watching.

And I know it is becoming a trope of it's own but I was really happy that Charlie and Alex got Prom Kings (even if I don't understand the concept TBH). And I was even happier to know that the whole school was accepting of it and it wasn't a joke. It was so nice that it was treated as normal and not an after school special. I also liked how Charlie and Alex's family were supportive of their news. It's so nice to see Hollywood moving away from using someone's sexuality as a simple plot device for drama. It's why I adore the movie Love, Simon but am hesitant about the series Love, Victor.

Justin has to have AIDS. Initially I thought the bruise on the neck was from when Jess through things at him during the lockdown, but the bruise is still there and I noticed a similar marking on his hand in this episode. And it's been a while since I've seen an AIDS related story but the marks remind me of Tom Hank's character in Philadelphia. And if I'm right, I guess it's Justin's funeral the series started with. Which will be sad.

I'm glad Hallucination Monty was able to tell Winston to let go of this ideal Monty Winston as in his head. Cause Monty is right, he wouldn't have been the boyfriend Monty thought he would be. And god I hope Monty was just Winston's thought processes presented as a hallucination for our benefit as opposed to Winston thinking Monty was there cause that would have looked bizarre to every else at Prom.

This really felt like it would have been a great finale because it was so happy until Justin collapsed and I remembered that Zach had disappeared from the plot while everyone else got happy shots.

[memememe76]

I literally cannot stand Clay this season. Everything to do with him was unwatchable. 
 

I didn’t mind everyone else. Charlie was my favourite character this season. The first half was a hot mess, the prom was the best episode. It contains the only two tolerable Clay scenes: Ani saying that Clay put his love interests on a pedestal that no woman could uphold (the biggest insight about him despite all of the Therapy sessions) and him dancing with his mother. 
 

The cast is very talented and hope to see them in future roles. 
 

This season was generally quite poor but as a whole, I will have very fond memories of the show. There were almost always moments sprinkled throughout the show that showed how it went beyond the genre’s conventions. 

[bettername2come]

1 hour ago, NUguy514 said:

Of course, if I have my timeline right, Justin was prostituting himself in the middle of his junior year, which was maybe 15-18 months before he died of AIDS.  That's...a really fast progression.  Even if left untreated, it takes HIV, on average, around ten years to progress to AIDS, and it takes AIDS itself 1-2 years to be fatal; obviously, lifestyle choices (smoking, drug use, etc) can accelerate that timeline quite a bit, but to contract HIV and die of AIDS all within 18 months seems to be pushing it.

Oh, God, I just had a horrible thought that I'm not sure is more or less plausible. Is it possible he got HIV from his mom's boyfriend who sexually abused him when he was little? Like, damn that would be the saddest thing in the world, but the timeline seems to fit better with the averages posted.

[Aymery]

I really wish they hadn't killed off Justin. I get that they wanted to bookend the show with another person close to Clay losing their life because they didn't open up and get help in time, but it felt like Justin didn't need to die for that lesson to get across to Clay.

After all the character development that went into Justin, redeeming him from the guy who watched his girlfriend get raped and did nothing, going through the painful journey of turning his life around after a childhood of misery and abuse, to have that taken away from him was just cruel.

And worst of all - it didn't technically serve the central message because Justin did open up: his homelessness and drug issues were out in the open; he'd revealed the sex abuse he underwent as a kid and even stood up as a survivor; and he'd spoken about his prostitution work last season. They could have given him HIV from the IV drug use/sex work, had him close to death, and Clay could still have had his rant about "why did he let himself get so sick?" to his therapist, with the reply that "you really don't know why someone would think they weren't worth saving?"

That being said - I don't get all the hate for Clay. I know there are moments (especially this season) when his behavior was grating, and his problems may seem minor compared to some of the other kids who are victims of rape, physical and sexual abuse by parental figures, homelessness, addiction, disability, sexual repression, etc. but his problems are still real - they're still valid. They were enough to drive him to the point of wanting to commit suicide by cop (which is what it came across as, despite Clay's denials and his therapist's concurrence). I was appalled that the reaction to Clay's breakdown from some quarters was "damn it, he got away with his BS because of his privilege" and not "if only cops showed the same restraint and empathy with every troubled person they encounter".

I guess it is a combination of his whiteness, maleness, straightness and middle-class status that makes it easy to dismiss his problems out of hand, but I feel like the key message that "we all bleed the same, and need to be there for one another" is not getting across, even after four whole seasons of this show.

Along the same lines, I don't think there was a need to "humanize" Bryce or Monty ... not because they weren't human beings, but because they were. People are multifaceted. Obviously both guys were a-holes, rapists and bullies, but that didn't mean they had no redeeming qualities whatsoever. (Painfully few, perhaps, but they did have them nonetheless.) Nor did their crimes warrant a death sentence - particularly in the case of Monty, whose murder was ultimately the result of extreme homophobia. (I don't buy that he was killed for being a child molester - he was only a year older than Tyler, and was he even 18 at the time he committed the crime? He might have faced a tough time in prison as a sex offender, but it was the fact that he was gay that signed his death warrant.)

With a father like his, Monty was screwed from the outset. How was a kid growing up in an environment of toxic masculinity - both at home and at school, as part of the football team (don't get me started on the bizarreness of the largely misogynistic team actually rooting for two queer boys as prom kings) - expected to embrace his homosexuality? Not that he should have chosen the outlets for his repressed feelings that he did, or justify them in any way, but it does feed into the overall narrative. How differently might things have turned out if Monty had been able to speak up about his father's abuse and get away from that toxic home environment? If he felt he could open up to someone - a friend, a teammate, a teacher, his mother, a counselor/therapist - about his sexual orientation? There's a good chance he wouldn't have resorted to raping Tyler and winding up in prison with a target on his back. So, in a way, his was also a cautionary tale of emotional repression leading to fatal outcomes.

I agree it was hugely problematic that Winston believed himself to be "in love" with someone who gay-bashed him, but I don't think that he was wrong for wishing to clear Monty's name of murder - because that was (and remains) a major injustice. It's not like Monty was getting away with the crime he had committed; he was in prison for the assault on Tyler. And he was ultimately the victim of a totally disproportionate punishment when he was killed.

Winston didn't need to be in love with Monty to want justice for him - he had an idea of why Monty was the way he was, and it would chafe any right-minded person that Monty hadn't just lost his life senselessly to homophobia, but was now also being framed as a murderer - which Winston knew for a fact was impossible. It was adding insult to injury.

And their dream sequence dance at prom indicates that Winston himself knew, deep down, that Monty was not boyfriend material. It wasn't Monty's (non-existent) ghost that communicated that to him; it was Winston's own subconscious. It's understandable that, as a queer boy, he was driven by the desire to right the injustice of having a murdered queer boy framed for an even worse crime.

And it adds another dimension to why he finally decides to let Alex get away with Bryce's murder. I don't think he could bring himself to sentence another gay boy (one he'd loved) to the same prison where Monty had become the victim of a homophobic killing.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Aymery

[memememe76]

I mean, I will list some of the things Clay did this season:

1. He locked Jessica inside that structure during the camping episode

2. He smashed the cameras in the school

3. He graffitied the walls of the school

4. He crashed a car and left his friend without any assistance

5. He took a cop’s gun and wields it in the school

6. He misses all of his college applications and messes up his interviews

7. He is an ass to Justin all season long

8. He goes into a cop station and says he has a gun

9. He violently beats up some dude at the party

10. He blows up the principal’s car

11. He interferes with a sting operation

12. He escapes a hospital ward

13. Tests positive for drugs and blames it on the addict brother.

I am almost positive I am missing 10 or 20 more assy things Clay did this season. By the end, not only is he still alive, he makes the big graduation speech and goes to a well regarded college. I was tired of the dreariness of the storyline and the performance, and just how everyone, absolutely everyone, was trying to protect Clay, like that cop and Ani writing his college essay. 

I was tired of it all. 

Edited June 8, 2020 by memememe76

[ElectricBoogaloo]

6 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

I cannot wait for the 'deep thinkers' of the socials to start posting in about a years time how 13 Reasons Why predicted the protests or knew about police targeting people of colour over white people.

It's not going to take a year for people to make that connection. Just as women already knew about the pervasive sexual harassment that existed long before the Me Too movement, people of color have always known that they are targeted by the police. What happened with the security guard after the Justin/Diego fight was nothing new. It was just another incident in an endless line of incidents. We were shown earlier in the season that Tony was picked on by the security guards as well. Like most protests, the one at Liberty was not sparked by the first situation where this happened. It occurred because many of the students had been subject to it or witnessed it and after the Nth time, they were sick of it. The show didn't predict what would happen in real time. They were reflecting that it's been happening for far too long and people are fed up with it.

[PinkRibbons]

1 hour ago, Aymery said:

particularly in the case of Monty, whose murder was ultimately the result of extreme homophobia. (I don't buy that he was killed for being a child molester - he was only a year older than Tyler, and was he even 18 at the time he committed the crime? He might have faced a tough time in prison as a sex offender, but it was the fact that he was gay that signed his death warrant.)

Monty was in no way out when he went into prison. IIRC he was there a day or so before he was killed, and there's no reason his fellow inmates would know his sexuality (which even he was denying) or even the details of his crime. He was being charged with raping a child, which is what he did. His age and/or the exact age of his victim didn't matter. 

Monty should have been in protective custody and isolated from the other inmates precisely because of his charges and the risk of them getting out among the general population. I'm surprised his family didn't sue.

Edited June 8, 2020 by PinkRibbons

[memememe76]

It is interesting (and sad) how the show started its season in the midst of significant social events involving young people. I believe season two began during the shooting in a high school in Florida. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

11 hours ago, NUguy514 said:

touring a number of colleges is very common among the more privileged students who can afford those tours, but very few schools actually require an interview as part of a student's application.

Very true. The few campuses that I toured were within driving distance so we just took a short road trip on the weekend (the good thing about living in California is that there are A LOT of colleges, both public and private, in the state!). I know some people who flew across the country to visit multiple colleges and I was like yeah, my parents are definitely not going to do that!

As a result of watching this season, I started thinking about how many tv shows and movies have shown high school students doing college interviews despite the fact that it's totally unnecessary (Orange County, Modern Family, etc). I guess it's for the drama. But usually these kids (or their parents) think that impressing the local alumni recruiter is going to guarantee admission and that just isn't true. Even if the interview goes really well, it's the least important aspect of your application. If your grades are horrible, your test scores are dismal, and you have no extracurriculars, it doesn't matter how much you dazzled the interviewer. If you're on the cusp (good grades, good test scores, a decent amount of activities), it might give you a few extra points at most but it's not going to guarantee admission.

[ShortyMac]

I saw on Reddit that you can actually e-mail the address Clay gave out. Someone asked what happened to Sheri:

[Bill1978]

41 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The show didn't predict what would happen in real time. They were reflecting that it's been happening for far too long and people are fed up with it.

I understand that completely and knew what the writers were going for. My original comment was met to come across as a tad sarcastic after spending far too much time on the net and seeing people claiming to find something deep in an old show etc and trying to claim that the show was groundbreaking etc or even psychic. When in fact people who watched the original airing knew what was happening during that time etc. I've been experiencing it a lot around Glee lately, from viewers who were kids at the time suddenly discovering the adult content and commentary that was being delivered that initially went over their head but presenting it as if no one has ever thought of it before.

[Aymery]

1 hour ago, PinkRibbons said:

Monty was in no way out when he went into prison. IIRC he was there a day or so before he was killed, and there's no reason his fellow inmates would know his sexuality (which even he was denying) or even the details of his crime. He was being charged with raping a child, which is what he did. His age and/or the exact age of his victim didn't matter. 

Monty should have been in protective custody and isolated from the other inmates precisely because of his charges and the risk of them getting out among the general population. I'm surprised his family didn't sue.

I suspect the charges pertaining to his rape of another boy would likely had led Monty's killer(s) to the same assumption as his dad, that he was gay. I don't know about you, but given the last we saw of Monty alive, I wouldn't have been surprised if he did/said something with the intention of provoking another inmate to end his life.

I doubt Monty's homophobic dad regrets his son's murder, so if he were to sue, it would only be for the money.

[NUguy514]

3 hours ago, Aymery said:

That being said - I don't get all the hate for Clay. I know there are moments (especially this season) when his behavior was grating, and his problems may seem minor compared to some of the other kids who are victims of rape, physical and sexual abuse by parental figures, homelessness, addiction, disability, sexual repression, etc. but his problems are still real - they're still valid. They were enough to drive him to the point of wanting to commit suicide by cop (which is what it came across as, despite Clay's denials and his therapist's concurrence). I was appalled that the reaction to Clay's breakdown from some quarters was "damn it, he got away with his BS because of his privilege" and not "if only cops showed the same restraint and empathy with every troubled person they encounter".

In addition to the list @memememe76 posted above, I would add that, more often than not, Clay was a judgmental asshole to most of the people he claimed to care about under the guise of being a Nice Guy for the duration of the show.

3 hours ago, Aymery said:

particularly in the case of Monty, whose murder was ultimately the result of extreme homophobia. (I don't buy that he was killed for being a child molester - he was only a year older than Tyler, and was he even 18 at the time he committed the crime? He might have faced a tough time in prison as a sex offender, but it was the fact that he was gay that signed his death warrant.)

We can speculate all day long because the show handled Monty's murder as a throwaway/plot convenience, but I never, ever thought that Monty was killed because he was gay, especially because Monty himself wasn't out.  Frankly, it's much likelier that if Monty was suspected of being gay, he would've been targeted for regular, sustained, and brutal sexual assaults himself, not murder.  Moreover, the age difference between him and Tyler is irrelevant: whether he was one minute or one decade older than Tyler, he still raped a minor.  I think it's a huge leap to assume Monty was killed for being gay (and you are making a leap by stating it as if it's fact) when the simplest explanation is that child rapists tend to be huge targets in prison.

[Lovecat]

Episode 1:  OK, who had "40 minutes" in the "How long will it take for Clay to get the snot beaten out of him?" poll??  And what's the over/under on "How many times will Clay get the snot beaten out of him this season?"  I swear Clay Jenson is right up there with Daniel LaRusso and Jesse Pinkman in the "Most Number of Beatdowns Taken by a Single Character" rankings.

Was that Phylicia Rashad (aka Claire Huxtable) as the pastor at the funeral? 

[starri]

42 minutes ago, Lovecat said:

Was that Phylicia Rashad (aka Claire Huxtable) as the pastor at the funeral? 

Yes.  I don't think she was credited, either.

[Lovecat]

4 minutes ago, starri said:

Yes.  I don't think she was credited, either.

That's what was tripping me up--I was 99.99% sure it was her, but couldn't find a credit on IMDB.  Thanks for confirmation I wasn't imagining things!

[tennisgurl]

I have stuff to say about the season in general, and the show as a whole, but right now I can only focus on how pissed and depressed I am that they decided to kill Justin off like that. After everything he went through, how much he struggled and tried to be become a better person and how much he suffered, he finally gets a chance at a future and to have people that love him...and then he dies horribly and thats that. Its just so depressing, and it takes so much of what I actually liked about the season (Justin's continued struggles trying to stay sober and how much he looked forward to college) and ruins it. In fact, it just makes it worse. Justin spent all season trying to be a good friend while everyone told him to fuck off over and over (especially Clay) and while so many characters spent all season angsting away and spiraling and lashing out and going on about how dumb life was, Justin was so excited to go to college and have a real chance at a life, and then he drops dead and everyone else gets wonderful awesome happy endings. It really made it hard for me to even enjoy everyone else getting their happy endings, I mean they even dragged freaking Ryan of all people back just to give Winstons delusional ass a consolation prize, everything is just story book happy perfect and all problems resolved, like Justin died for their sins or whatever. 

What a sad, short life he had. A life full of poverty, abuse, neglect, terrible choices, putting his loyalty and trust in the wrong people, homelessness, drug addiction, prison, even more abuse, rape and prostitution, and even when things started looking up and he moved in with the Jensons and he started trying to make up for his mistakes, he still had this whole murder cover up, Bryce dying and his complicated feelings about that, his mom dying and his even more complicated feelings, his last few months consisted of Clay yelling at him pretty much all of the time, and then died of actual god dang AIDS at the age of eighteen. The fastest moving AIDS I have ever seen as well, considering I presume he would have contracted HIV on the street during his junior year, and died at the end of his senior year. Justin probably had the best character arc on the show, until this, ending it like this just seems cruel, and I dont even understand it from a narrative perspective. I guess it was to get all of the characters together again and united in grief and inspire them to do better, but its awful that they had to throw Justin under the bus for all of that to happen after everything he went through. Its just mean, and it makes his whole arc just an exercise in misery. In fact, I would have been alright if he did contract HIV, but they showed that it wasn't necessarily a death sentence, and that it was something he could manage and live a full happy life with, and that would have I think better aligned with what I think the end message was supposed to be. But no, he just drops dead, because the universe itself hates Justin for some reason I guess. Its just so depressing and nihilistic, I cant even really talk about the rest of the show now.  

[Anela]

I'm watching the last episode, and I'm pissed off, too, @tennisgurl They've just thrown too much in, and poor Justin deserved better. 

 

[Bill1978]

6 hours ago, Lovecat said:

Was that Phylicia Rashad (aka Claire Huxtable) as the pastor at the funeral? 

While I didn't recognise her, the voice sounded really familiar. Now I know why. Thank you.

[NUguy514]

@tennisgurl:

Word to every word of your post.

[ChicksDigScars]

 

On 6/6/2020 at 4:16 AM, NUguy514 said:

And why does Monty need to be humanized?  It's the same fucking problem as last season with Bryce.  I don't need or want these two rapist monsters to be humanized, and I don't care about any justice for either of them; their victims never got any, other than comfort in the knowledge that they're dead as fucking disco.  I will say, though, that I was hoping Hallucination Bryce and Monty would prompt Clay to run in front of a gunman and be shot to death.  Oh well.

RIGHT? And WTF, show? They named the high school's baseball field, Bryce Walker Field, and the football team wears jersey's with De La Cruz on the back? They were known RAPISTS. No high school would allow that. No parent organization would allow that. Ridiculous,

[PWHCHCH]

Having the actress who plays Dr Ellis Grey on Greys Anatomy play Justin’s Doctor was absolutely perfect casting.

Also at prom, I was hoping that Clay would ask his Mum for a dance, and when he did I was so happy I started crying. My favourite moment of the series by far. 

[Stiggs]

The first thing I texted my friend when I started watching was, “We’ve got Claire Huxtable at a funeral. If this whole show is Ghost Clay I am IN.”

I really thought for a moment that the whole thing was about Clay in purgatory or some 80s St. Elsewhere thing, because this show makes questionable decisions, but IF ONLY we had a Who Shot JR? season. I would swap it out for this mess. 

It was just hard to enjoy watching a bunch of kids experience the fallout of trauma - Clay straight up needs serious, serious mental health intervention and I expected more out of Captain Dan than, “I told the sheriff you’re cool, see ya Wednesday or whatevs.” 

Because I am old, I kept wanting to yell at Bryan Hackett to be cool. 🙂 The principal was such a failure, but at the same time, I don’t know what dimension this school is even in. 

The entire back end of this season had so much going on, or so much that could have gone on, why they killed who they did makes no sense! If they wanted another kid dead so much in the final season (which was just not necessary if you ask me), why not use one the five bajillion other fucked up things already in this universe instead of bringing in one more? And whyyyyyy kill off literally the best character redemption, ever? Justin never had a chance, and one little light this show had was him getting a chance. And then, no. I don’t get it, story-wise. 

Alex gets to be a murderer and gay prom royalty embraced by jocks who love their dead rapist friends and their live gay friend? Okay...

(Disclaimer, no love for live or dead Bryce.)

Zack being drunk all season was hella boring. 

I love Tony. I don’t care that he’s a 30-year old high school student. 

Allllll of that said, I am glad this show is done now, but I’d be totally into a show about College Clazy/Clay Cray and the havoc he wreaks at Brown. You’ve got disassociation, hallucinations, serious depression, anxiety, personality disorders, and now brother grief - I kinda need to know where this goes. If anyone ever needed a gap year...

[Bill1978]

12 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

hey named the high school's baseball field, Bryce Walker Field,

My memory could be wrong but I thought it was just Walker Field. I may have missed the Bryce part. And I think it got named that during Season 2 (or maybe Season 3) because the dad gave the school a bajillion dollars for it. And I believe Clay had one of his trademark rants about it being wrong but no one cared because bajillion dollars. I admit I could be wrong, I've only ever watched each season once

[LakeGal]

I am having trouble just watching this season.  I am bored and I don't like many of the characters left on this show.  Why should I care what happens to Clay?  He just annoys me every episode.  I feel strangely obligated to finish out the series.  But I am not even sure why.

[Neurochick]

On 6/8/2020 at 12:17 AM, Aymery said:

With a father like his, Monty was screwed from the outset. How was a kid growing up in an environment of toxic masculinity - both at home and at school, as part of the football team (don't get me started on the bizarreness of the largely misogynistic team actually rooting for two queer boys as prom kings) - expected to embrace his homosexuality? Not that he should have chosen the outlets for his repressed feelings that he did, or justify them in any way, but it does feed into the overall narrative. How differently might things have turned out if Monty had been able to speak up about his father's abuse and get away from that toxic home environment? If he felt he could open up to someone - a friend, a teammate, a teacher, his mother, a counselor/therapist - about his sexual orientation? There's a good chance he wouldn't have resorted to raping Tyler and winding up in prison with a target on his back. So, in a way, his was also a cautionary tale of emotional repression leading to fatal outcomes.

I agree it was hugely problematic that Winston believed himself to be "in love" with someone who gay-bashed him, but I don't think that he was wrong for wishing to clear Monty's name of murder - because that was (and remains) a major injustice. It's not like Monty was getting away with the crime he had committed; he was in prison for the assault on Tyler. And he was ultimately the victim of a totally disproportionate punishment when he was killed.

Re:  Monty: I think that was the point of Clay's fantasies of Monty.  Monty told him that Tyler was all right because HE had help, where Monty had no help.  Monty came from a toxic home and was in a toxic school environment, especially with Bryce as a friend.  There was no place for him to tell anybody, "I'm gay."  As for him being killed in prison, I believe he was killed in prison because he was a "child rapist," because sometimes rumors get started in places like prisons and they escalate, it's like playing a game of telephone.

Winston thought he loved Monty because he understood why Monty beat the shit out of him.  Maybe Winston had done something like that himself.  How many TV shows and movies have the trope of a woman thinking she can "save" a self destructive or violent man?

[starri]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

Monty came from a toxic home and was in a toxic school environment, especially with Bryce as a friend.  There was no place for him to tell anybody, "I'm gay."

If the football team wanted to make sure that their bisexual quarterback and his boyfriend ended up as prom kings, was it really that toxic for Monty?

[Neurochick]

3 minutes ago, starri said:

If the football team wanted to make sure that their bisexual quarterback and his boyfriend ended up as prom kings, was it really that toxic for Monty?

Good point.  During the first three seasons the football team was pretty toxic.

[KaveDweller]

On 6/8/2020 at 1:28 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Very true. The few campuses that I toured were within driving distance so we just took a short road trip on the weekend (the good thing about living in California is that there are A LOT of colleges, both public and private, in the state!). I know some people who flew across the country to visit multiple colleges and I was like yeah, my parents are definitely not going to do that!

As a result of watching this season, I started thinking about how many tv shows and movies have shown high school students doing college interviews despite the fact that it's totally unnecessary (Orange County, Modern Family, etc). I guess it's for the drama. But usually these kids (or their parents) think that impressing the local alumni recruiter is going to guarantee admission and that just isn't true. Even if the interview goes really well, it's the least important aspect of your application. If your grades are horrible, your test scores are dismal, and you have no extracurriculars, it doesn't matter how much you dazzled the interviewer. If you're on the cusp (good grades, good test scores, a decent amount of activities), it might give you a few extra points at most but it's not going to guarantee admission.

I applied to colleges 20 years ago, but at the time there were some colleges that required interviews and some that didn't. So I think there are probably some places that would still require it now. The one I had to go on was kind of weird though, because I was supposed to go to this alumni's house, and my parents thought it was super sketchy to just send a 17-year-old to a strange dude's house at night. My mom insisted on coming with me to meet him first, then left us alone for the interview.

I agree an interview probably only makes a difference if you are on the cusp though. It wouldn't be the only thing that matters. But I believe they'd make kids do it anyway.

On 6/8/2020 at 2:01 AM, ShortyMac said:

I saw on Reddit that you can actually e-mail the address Clay gave out. Someone asked what happened to Sheri:

Thanks for that, I had been wondering what happened to Sheri. They never gave an onscreen explanation, did they?

I had a hard time watching all of Clay's scenes this season, not because he was so terrible, but because he was clearly having a mental breakdown and it was just so painful to see that happen. He is lucky so many people are looking out for him, because he could have gotten himself killed at so many points.

[Snow Fairy]

Who is the third good dead person Clay talked about? He liked Hannah and Justin, didn't like Bryce and Monty. 

I can't remember

[Mama No Life]

On 6/8/2020 at 12:02 PM, Lovecat said:

That's what was tripping me up--I was 99.99% sure it was her, but couldn't find a credit on IMDB.  Thanks for confirmation I wasn't imagining things!

And I enjoyed seeing Denise Huxtable's husband appreciate her sermon haha.

 

 

[Mama No Life]

Quote

I can't believe that Alex was stupid enough to confess everything to Winston. I KNEW he was recording it!

I don't think he was recording the confession. That tape Winston gave Alex was the Bryce message to Jessica, which I think we are supposed to assume Clay gave Winston in one of his disassociated moments.

 

One thing about Alex being violent vs Bryce/Monty is we know Alex's rage flares are a direct result of his TBI, whereas the other two suffer from asshole-itis.

 

 

[ShortyMac]

3 hours ago, Snow Fairy said:

Who is the third good dead person Clay talked about? He liked Hannah and Justin, didn't like Bryce and Monty. 

I can't remember

Jeff. Killed in an accident before the series started, because a drunk Sheri ran over a stop sign and didn't call it in.