S05.E10: Something Unforgiveable

[heisenberg]

26 minutes ago, ahmerali said:

Another bold prediction: I don't see Lalo bothering Jimmy and Kim any more.

Or it could be the first place he will go to ask again what happened in the desert.

[ahmerali]

Guaranteed he knows. Nacho isn't dead, and Nacho didn't try to help him. That leaves one other alternative....

[ahmerali]

1 minute ago, heisenberg said:

Or it could be the first place he will go to ask again what happened in the desert.

What does the desert have to do with it any more? There's absolutely no secret that Fring wants Lalo dead with a capital D, even before Lalo went to jail. Even if Lalo somehow learns or deduces that Fring engineered whatever happened in the desert, what would that change? Its clear that Lalo is going right after him now. This is a blood feud now, no quarter given, because clearly Fring put a hit on him. And Nacho is target 1B because clearly he is involved at some level.

A key piece of information that I hang my hat on here goes back yet again to Breaking Bad. When the Cousins appear in Season 3 of that series, they at least give Fring the respect that he is in charge of his own territory. I commented during that series that if they had had even the slightest inkling that Fring was behind Hector's paralysis, nothing and no one would have stopped them from taking Fring out - la familia es toda, after all.

At first I thought that Lalo might seek remedy with Eladio; or that he might get the Cousins involved. But clearly neither happens as per what we see in Breaking Bad. If Eladio knew, he would punish both sides, or more likely not punish Fring who is still capable of delivering dollars - no benefit to Lalo. If the Cousins knew, they would not act towards Fring the way they did in BB. No, Lalo is going on a solo mission to take Gus out. He will not succeed of course; but it will be entertaining.

And then, when Lalo is dead, Fring will take his chain or some other trinket, and taunt Hector with it. I can already see it.

[Bannon]

Lalo's action scenes were mindful of the worst action montage from Breaking Bad, which to me was Walt pulling off the simulteaneous multiprison assasinations. Kind of clunky.

 

[ahmerali]

Oh, found one more thing: the Kansas City Royals nightshirt....Kansas City is in...Missouri. "Gene" put Missouri license plates on his car at the beginning of this season when he thought he had to disappear. I am thinking that's not just a coincidence.

[qtpye]

Some good insight about Kim.

[BurtRigby]

2 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

Remember when Howard put her in document review for months?

Not only did Howard keep her in document review for months, but she brought Mesa Verde to HHM and Howard kept her from working in it!  He and Chuck took over and left her in the doghouse. That's the whole reason Jimmy changed the numbers on the Mesa Verde document - not to ruin Chuck but to free Mesa Verde from HHM so Kim could take over the account when they dropped HHM for incompetence.  Howard's petulant, vindictive behavior was the reason she left HHM.  She's got plenty of reasons to hate him.

[Quilt Fairy]

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

or just poison him with that drink? Oh, sorry, that later on...LOl.

But Lalo is not part of the swimming pool massacre (in BB), right?  So he might be dead by that time, in some way. 

ITA that this was a totally unsatisfactory season finale cliff-hanger, particularly when there are years between seasons.  As a mid-season cliff-hanger, when you know the show is coming back in 2-3 months, it would be OK. 

 

[Irlandesa]

Yes, Howard put Kim in doc review but he didn't put her there for no reason.  I think what bothers her the most isn't that he put her there, it's that he didn't allow her to control the way she got out of doc review....i.e. with Mesa Verde. 

He was mad but I don't think if his reasoning was petty and vindictive he would have forgiven her the rest of her loan like he did.

15 minutes ago, BurtRigby said:

hat's the whole reason Jimmy changed the numbers on the Mesa Verde document - not to ruin Chuck but to free Mesa Verde from HHM so Kim could take over the account when they dropped HHM for incompetence.

Mesa Verde was going to go with Kim when she left.  They didn't need to be freed.  They were free. They ended up staying with HHM because they ended up liking Chuck more. 

Edited April 21, 2020 by Irlandesa

[Ed-]

6 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

But Lalo is not part of the swimming pool massacre (in BB), right?  So he might be dead by that time, in some way. 

ITA that this was a totally unsatisfactory season finale cliff-hanger, particularly when there are years between seasons.  As a mid-season cliff-hanger, when you know the show is coming back in 2-3 months, it would be OK. 

 

I feel the finale was too focused on Lalo and Mexico in general. I think they should have given Jimmy and Kim a lot more action time. They should have went for Howard this episode and ended with Sandpiper settlement, maybe even a divorce, or even Howard getting killed, or Saul getting the BB office. Something of this caliber.

What I liked was the extremely puzzled look on Jimmy's face watching Kim break bad. Watching yourself from the side is not that great, huh? Also, Kim described the future Saul Goodman and Associates corporate structure and the office pretty well -- (paraphrasing) 'hire [friends names] and rent the shittiest office close to the courthouse'.

[Bannon]

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that there have to be some major remaining character reveals, probably featuring a much younger Kim, next season. The writers specifically wrote Jimmy as being borderline shocked at Kim's ruthless, hateful, desire to harm Howard, and I think they intended for the audience to share that emotion. Which means the writers will give the audience more to chew on.

I don't know how I see this. I certainly don't need characters to be likeable. I just need them to be interesting. It just seems odd to have major character reveals in the final sesson.  

 

[ruby24]

48 minutes ago, Ed- said:

I feel the finale was too focused on Lalo and Mexico in general. I think they should have given Jimmy and Kim a lot more action time. They should have went for Howard this episode and ended with Sandpiper settlement, maybe even a divorce, or even Howard getting killed, or Saul getting the BB office. Something of this caliber.

What I liked was the extremely puzzled look on Jimmy's face watching Kim break bad. Watching yourself from the side is not that great, huh? Also, Kim described the future Saul Goodman and Associates corporate structure and the office pretty well -- (paraphrasing) 'hire [friends names] and rent the shittiest office close to the courthouse'.

I noticed this too. It must mean something, right? I just can't figure out (and I don't know if the writers have decided) which way they're going to go with Kim. She could either leave Jimmy or turn out to have been behind the scenes of BB the whole time and we just never saw her. And they're going to somehow reunite in the present day Gene-in-Nebraska stuff.

[Ed-]

17 minutes ago, Bannon said:

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that there have to be some major remaining character reveals, probably featuring a much younger Kim, next season. The writers specifically wrote Jimmy as being borderline shocked at Kim's ruthless, hateful, desire to harm Howard, and I think they intended for the audience to share that emotion. Which means the writers will give the audience more to chew on.

I don't know how I see this. I certainly don't need characters to be likeable. I just need them to be interesting. It just seems odd to have major character reveals in the final sesson. 

Perhaps Kim dropped the middle name because it was the name of a Chuck-like figure in her family.

[Bryce Lynch]

4 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Can someone with a DVR tell me what is written on the box that Kim sits down when she steps into the courtroom to talk with Howard?

The first line (which was crossed out) reads "PPD RECORDS TO FILE"

The second line (also crossed out) reads "Misc Felonies 97 98 99"

The third line (highlighted in blue) reads "FOR TRANSFER 10/02"

The last line is illegible to me.

 

 

[PeterPirate]

4 hours ago, ahmerali said:

What does the desert have to do with it any more? There's absolutely no secret that Fring wants Lalo dead with a capital D, even before Lalo went to jail. Even if Lalo somehow learns or deduces that Fring engineered whatever happened in the desert, what would that change? Its clear that Lalo is going right after him now. This is a blood feud now, no quarter given, because clearly Fring put a hit on him. And Nacho is target 1B because clearly he is involved at some level.

A key piece of information that I hang my hat on here goes back yet again to Breaking Bad. When the Cousins appear in Season 3 of that series, they at least give Fring the respect that he is in charge of his own territory. I commented during that series that if they had had even the slightest inkling that Fring was behind Hector's paralysis, nothing and no one would have stopped them from taking Fring out - la familia es toda, after all.

At first I thought that Lalo might seek remedy with Eladio; or that he might get the Cousins involved. But clearly neither happens as per what we see in Breaking Bad. If Eladio knew, he would punish both sides, or more likely not punish Fring who is still capable of delivering dollars - no benefit to Lalo. If the Cousins knew, they would not act towards Fring the way they did in BB. No, Lalo is going on a solo mission to take Gus out. He will not succeed of course; but it will be entertaining.

And then, when Lalo is dead, Fring will take his chain or some other trinket, and taunt Hector with it. I can already see it.

I have to say, I really liked the way things played out in Mexico, because they dovetailed the BCS and BB story lines.

Lalo is alive but is letting everyone think he is dead.  He can hide out indefinitely until he is ready to try to get revenge.  This allows for the four-year gap until the start of BB, and especially the fact that Saul thinks of Lalo and Ignacio when he is kidnapped.  Right now Saul does not know of Ignacio's involvement in the hit on Lalo, nor of the outcome, but sometime close to the start of BB, Lalo will do something that informs Saul of all that happened.   

The Salamanca family is fatally stricken as a major part of the cartel.  Lalo has lost face because he introduced Ignacio to Don Eladio, only to have Ignacio disappear that very night after the assault on the Salamanca compound.  Even if he is alive when Gus and Mike and Jesse go to Mexico, he is nowhere to be seen.  Whenever Tuco gets out of prison, he can resume his own operation in the "South Valley", but it will be in an office building and not the restaurant.   

One loose end is the Cousins.  I also don't see how they can work with Gus in BB if they know he was behind the assault on their family's stronghold.  Another is the fact that Saul thinks Lalo is alive in BB.  I guess we'll see what happens.  For the time being, well done, show.

Edited April 21, 2020 by PeterPirate

[shapeshifter]

7 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Any why is her anger, her desire for revenge directed at Howard?

5 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

Remember when Howard put her in document review for months?

Yep! But based on so many posts here, I guess that needs to appear in the previouslies next season  

 

Kim’s ponytail curl lost its tight spring this episode.

Lalo surviving was the bookend to his jumping onto Jimmy’s car in the desert (to see the bullet holes).

 

 

 

 

[gallimaufry]

I don't know how I felt about this one.

Lalo's not that interesting a character in his own right and having a bunch of nameless assassins fail to kill him just doesn't feel all that compelling. 

The drama was with Nacho and Nacho is now... I don't know where his plot is.  Even if Lalo were killed, how does he explain running?  Surely his family are vulnerable to reprisals?  The fact that his escape plan has cost the death of an innocent also complicates the situation with his father and the extent to which he can ever be redeemed.  I'm interested to see where it goes but it's very open-ended indeed.

It was good to see Eladio and I did like Lalo's little ruse to ingratiate Nacho.  It tied up a loose end about BB I hadn't even considered which is where the biker gangs we've seen in BCS went as they were never an issue for Walt and Jesse.  But we know where Eladio ends which does take a little of the excitement off this one.

Otherwise... Mike and Gus seem to be kind of in a holding pattern.  Gus has some idea which I guess we'll see to fruition and Mike is now just Gus' man and doesn't feel like a major player in his own right any more.  I expected more on these characters for the finale but I guess all their chips were in the Lalo plot. 

And that leaves... Jimmy and Kim.  Which, at this point, is mostly about Kim.

I really expected Jimmy to leave her this episode and that would have been the point at which I could see Kim breaking -- knowing how she hates to be patronised and controlled.  But Jimmy is too weak and Mrs Goodman is too much all his dreams come true for that to work so we're left with Kim doing a very abrupt and seemingly under-motivated heel turn.

There were scenes that showed Kim's path.  I loved the scene about "burners" which make it feel like Kim isn't on some shockingly new path of discovery but is fitting into a lawyer cliche.  I also think the sheer scale of the task facing her obviously made her have to rethink her ambitions, hence the wish to poach some of the best she's worked with (though why on Earth any of them would want to join her I can't see).  And of course, while I don't think we're meant to see her response to Howard as remotely proportionate (or, frankly, sane), there is some precedent in her being put in dock review, refusing Howard's money and then the way she turned on Kevin.  Still, it feels very hard to reconcile this Kim with the Kim of even the beginning of this season.

S4 of BB had a very drastic turn for Walt but it felt like it emerged out of where he had been before.  I'm just not sure I see Kim's progression.  They really do need a very clever bit of selling to make this work as currently it's... a real stretch.  I wonder if we're going to meet Kim's father.  It feels like as well as an issue with authority there's a real hatred of control figures.  The problem is, it feels very late in the game to be trying to pin down who Kim is.

More generally, it just feels very fragmented at the moment.  That was fine in earlier seasons where it had time to cohere and last episode certainly looked like we might see these plots starting to converge but going into the final stretch, everything seems scattered to the wind.  It seems clear we're going to get a "Gliding Over All" episode in which a huge amount happens in a short space of time.  I always thought BB shortchanged itself by not exploring Walt at the very top of his game more. 

Still, very excited for the final season, whenever it might be.  A little anxious in some respects -- this season has had some real highs (episodes 7-9 especially) but some flaws too.  We've found out very little about Gus, I'm not completely convinced by Mike's turn but I guess we're supposed to accept that he's basically at the end of his moral journey except for possibly wanting to intercede over Nacho.  Nacho's spelt all but his final minutes in the same status quo more or less.  And Kim's arc feels very difficult to pin down.  I always thought that BCS had a far stronger first few years than BB's first few years but BB by this point was stratospherically good, BCS is feeling a little less sure-footed.  I just hope they can really stick the landing.

[ShadowFacts]

Something that seemed off was that Gus has mentioned a couple of times Lalo's death cannot be pinned on him, there can't be a whiff of his involvement, he and Mike have to act so they are completely above suspicion -- and then the assassination attempt takes place immediately after Lalo arrives home.  Yes, it is south of the border, but the timing . . Gus and Mike now have a track record of not hiring the best of the best.  Werner was a fail, now these hit men.  The perils of hiring other criminals. 

Kim's descent also rings untrue to me.  She was urging Jimmy to use his powers for good not that long ago.  She has an encounter with a cartel thug where she saves Jimmy, and now she's ready to take down someone who done her wrong?  I don't buy that.  I get that she enjoys scamming and gets a real turn-on, and has a problem with authority figures, but a full about-face of her moral code doesn't track.  Also, Jimmy is making a quick post-traumatic stress recovery.  I can't relate to any of it and I have to be able to find resonance in at least one character to care much about what happens next. 

[Ellaria]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Yep! But based on so many posts here, I guess that needs to appear in the previouslies next season  

Since you quoted one of my posts, I will address this: Nope! I don't need to see the "previouslies" to be be reminded of what Howard did to Kim. I recall and I still don't see her motivation to ruin him at this point in time. It has been years since this occurred. Kim hasn't outwardly expressed any anger or resentment towards him. Frankly, I believe that her plotting was less about her time in document review and Mesa Verde and more about the "insulting" way he approached in the courthouse. 

My criticism is not plot based - it is character based. If the writers want me to believe that Kim was harboring this level of resentment against Howard for years, then they needed to show me some of that along the way. They didn't.

6 hours ago, BurtRigby said:

Not only did Howard keep her in document review for months, but she brought Mesa Verde to HHM and Howard kept her from working in it!  He and Chuck took over and left her in the doghouse. That's the whole reason Jimmy changed the numbers on the Mesa Verde document - not to ruin Chuck but to free Mesa Verde from HHM so Kim could take over the account when they dropped HHM for incompetence.  Howard's petulant, vindictive behavior was the reason she left HHM.  She's got plenty of reasons to hate him.

Lots of people may "hate" the treatment that they receive from a boss/supervisor. Most don't ruthlessly plot to ruin their career. Kim seemed to have moved on from that resentment. She had a thriving career. Suddenly - and yes, it was sudden - she wants to recklessly go after Howard...a move that could ruin her own career, if she isn't careful. She seems quite certain that she can pull it off, which is concerning.

It is not a matter of whether Kim is capable of hating Howard right now and plotting revenge. It is her path to this moment and I don't believe that the show has done a good job of brining us on that journey. 

2 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

Still, it feels very hard to reconcile this Kim with the Kim of even the beginning of this season.

S4 of BB had a very drastic turn for Walt but it felt like it emerged out of where he had been before.  I'm just not sure I see Kim's progression.  They really do need a very clever bit of selling to make this work as currently it's... a real stretch.  I wonder if we're going to meet Kim's father.  It feels like as well as an issue with authority there's a real hatred of control figures.  The problem is, it feels very late in the game to be trying to pin down who Kim is.

It is late in the game for Kim's character. While I expect that we will learn more about her background in the final season, it is too little, too late. Nonetheless, she has become a character that I don't understand. I really wish that she would have chosen to abide by the old saying, "living well is the best revenge" but that doesn't happen in the BCS/BB universe.

4 hours ago, Bannon said:

The writers specifically wrote Jimmy as being borderline shocked at Kim's ruthless, hateful, desire to harm Howard, and I think they intended for the audience to share that emotion. 

This! I agree - we were supposed to share Jimmy's emotions in that moment. I certainly did.

As depicted, Kim's turn to the dark side was supposed to be shocking. It clearly paralleled JImmy's final declaration at the end of S4. However, we knew that Jimmy's reveal was coming eventually. With Kim, however, it felt like the writers skipped over intimate, personal character development to bring us the "what just happened" moment and that, IMO, is detrimental to the character.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Ellaria Sand

[Bannon]

I do think we are getting to a more clear answer as to what attracts Kim to Jimmy, and it isn't just what Jimmy is, but rather what he is not. Jimmy is many things, but he most definitely is not a figure of power and authority, and those qualities repulse Kim. Which leads me to try, unsuccessfully, to recall what we know of Kim's father, other than that he wasn't around. Which leads me to speculate that perhaps Kim is the progeny of a relationship in there was a huge imbalance of power, perhaps not as hideous as rape, but one in which Kim's father could psychologically compel her mother into a sexually exploitive relationship which produced Kim, and Kim at some point became aware of this. That certainly might result in Kim having a searing hatred of any man in a position of authority who seeks to control her (and we know how control issues are central to character psychology in the BCS/BB universe), and just as importantly, a bottomless contempt for the idea of her, or any woman, succumbing to a man's attempt to exert control. Jimmy's only chance to influence Kim's behavior comes by an absence of any overt effort to do so. Now, that's a lot to unpack for a major character in a final season, and that abrupt shift in our understanding of Kim is quite jarring, but I'm willing to see where the writers go with it.

[Bannon]

Issues of control between Gus and Mike seem to be on the horizon as well. I don't think the writers would have had Gus explicity remark on how highly skilled the assasination squad he hired was, and then show them performing with such ineptitude (and it really was inept), without a purpose. I think that purpose may have been to allow Mike to read Gus the riot act, which would certainly be a shift in their relationship. That could lead to some interesting places, perhaps involving Nacho and his father.

[Ohwell]

I don't have much to add except to say that I was very disappointed and disgusted in how this finale went down.  I'm not even sure I'll be that excited when the final season comes, and gawd knows whenever that will be. 

This is what I hope will happen.

• Jimmy leaves Kim.
• Kim accidentally gets killed trying to pull a Giselle on Howard.  Howard is ok.
• Nacho and his father survive.
• Lalo gets killed (even though I think he's crazy sexy).
• I never have to see Don Eladio's creepy face again.

 

[ByTor]

10 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

"I offered your husband a job and he threw bowling balls at my car, and asked hookers to embarrass me at a work lunch!"

Most People: "Thats extremely concerning and I think he needs therapy."

Kim: "Thats awesome and I think he needs to go even bigger!"

I thought this was the 1st instance of truly poor acting by Seehorn.  When she started laughing at Howard, it sounded so forced that I thought Kim was actually repulsed by what Jimmy did to Howard but then fake laughed to piss Howard off, which of course is NOT what happened.

8 hours ago, ahmerali said:

I think his arc with Nacho will play out, amazingly enough, north of the border. Bold prediction: Nacho earns his (and his dad's) freedom from Fring [say that three times fast] by offing Lalo with no traces leading to Gus.

I think somehow Jimmy is going to find out this assassination attempt didn't work & Jimmy is going to get blamed for setting it in motion...hence the "Did Lalo send you?  It was ignacio!" in Breaking Bad.  If he thought Lalo was dead, he couldn't think Lalo sent somebody to kidnap him.  I do like your theory, though, and it could definitely work as long as Jimmy doesn't know about it, which isn't unlikely.

10 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Jimmy really is a bad influence on her

After this episode I'm starting to wonder who is the bad influence on whom.

10 hours ago, scenario said:

Maybe I'm strange but I like evil, unlikable people in shows as long as they are smart unlikable people.

I agree, which is why I was able to like most of the BB characters who were not good people.  Lalo is one too.  I don't like him, per se, but I like having him around.

8 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I don't think we need Lalo  but I also am finding Lalo sexy for some reason so I'm not upset he's still around. 

Of course this helps in me wanting to keep Lalo around 😉 

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

Kim's descent also rings untrue to me.  She was urging Jimmy to use his powers for good not that long ago.  She has an encounter with a cartel thug where she saves Jimmy, and now she's ready to take down someone who done her wrong?  I don't buy that.  I get that she enjoys scamming and gets a real turn-on, and has a problem with authority figures, but a full about-face of her moral code doesn't track.

It wasn't a full about-face, though, because getting revenge on Howard is just half of the equation. The other half is wanting a big enough payout to realize her dream of starting a top-notch pro bono firm, which was sparked by her visit to the public defender's records room and realizing the sheer scale of the problem she's trying to find a feel-good way to personally solve. And in that way it represents a further point on the path we saw her on earlier in the season with Kevin, where she's gotten increasingly comfortable with the idea of effing over the self-righteous authority figure to support the little guy he's supposedly keeping down.

So the basic character logic made sense to me, but the way the particulars suddenly came together struck me as a little clunky. No one has said a word about Sandpiper in two years, but all of a sudden Kim jumps on it as the way to fund her pro bono dream? I think it would've worked better if, say, Howard had explicitly been trying to hire Jimmy to help him ratchet up the Sandpiper deal -- that is, if the writers had laid some groundwork for Kim thinking of Sandpiper as the antithesis of the kind of law she wants to practice.

[EtheltoTillie]

I'm surprised everyone had such negative reactions.  Maybe in comparison to the last couple of episodes, this was a bit of a letdown.  But that last scene had me on the edge of my seat.  I will be eagerly awaiting in suspense for the next three years, as I predict that's the earliest we'd see anything.  What will we watch next?  Homeland is ending.  I'm going to try Perry Mason on HBO. 

[Eulipian 5k]

10 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

before he turns into Saul completely, shedding the last part of his Jimmy life. His expression when Kim walked out of the room giving him finger guns was this moment of realization that Kim is becoming a person who isnt the woman he fell for.

So Jimmy, who changed his name and  law practice, thinks Kim isn't who he fell for? Cheese, it's like two billiard balls colliding and spinning off in different directions.

ABQ is too small for these two jerks, they need to meet other people to fixate on. (God knows, Saul doesn't need more Uncertainty in his life or career.)

[MrWhyt]

9 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

A question for any burglars here: What did Nacho use on that lock to get it open?

he shimmed the lock.

[Armchair Critic]

Kim with no ponytail curl = Evil Kim?

[ShadowFacts]

4 minutes ago, Armchair Critic said:

Kim with no ponytail curl = Evil Kim?

I noticed the relaxation of the pony.  She's free.  Facing down Lalo just freed her.  Mostly kidding, but it is a new Kim we're seeing.

32 minutes ago, Dev F said:

It wasn't a full about-face, though, because getting revenge on Howard is just half of the equation. The other half is wanting a big enough payout to realize her dream of starting a top-notch pro bono firm, which was sparked by her visit to the public defender's records room and realizing the sheer scale of the problem she's trying to find a feel-good way to personally solve. And in that way it represents a further point on the path we saw her on earlier in the season with Kevin, where she's gotten increasingly comfortable with the idea of effing over the self-righteous authority figure to support the little guy he's supposedly keeping down.

I'm looking at her total plan for Howard.  Taking fraudulent actions of some sort to destroy him, because he held her down/dissed her.  Using whatever monetary gain from that to fund her unrealistic dreams, secondary but equally indefensible on a moral basis.  You can't help the downtrodden and give them the Cadillac defense experience and think you're using your powers for the good when you get in that position the way she's fantasizing.  Even Jimmy sees that this is out of character for her.  Howard is an officious stuffed-shirt, but one who signed off on sending a mail clerk to law school.  She's over correcting her possible daddy issues at his expense, if her plan goes forward.  Which I doubt they would set up in this finale and then drop next year(s).  I personally don't have enough background to find this believable, it feels more like a manipulation for surprise effect. 

[Eulipian 5k]

2 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

As depicted, Kim's turn to the dark side was supposed to be shocking.

Skyler's turn to the dark side in BB was to pretend she could kill Ted , and letting him think the worst of her. But we could see Sky's motivation; to protect Walt and the "business". Kim's only motivation is spite; Hwd represents no danger to Kim or Jimmy. They want to torpedo HMM for unethical or criminal behavior that they themselves aspire to.

[ahmerali]

1 hour ago, ByTor said:

I think somehow Jimmy is going to find out this assassination attempt didn't work & Jimmy is going to get blamed for setting it in motion...hence the "Did Lalo send you?  It was ignacio!" in Breaking Bad.  If he thought Lalo was dead, he couldn't think Lalo sent somebody to kidnap him.  I do like your theory, though, and it could definitely work as long as Jimmy doesn't know about it, which isn't unlikely.

 

 

I am not so convinced that it's important one way or the other whether Jimmy thinks or knows that Lalo is alive or dead. He is obviously aware that Lalo and the Salamanca family have a long reach. He has seen the Cousins. He's clearly suffering from PTSD after this event, and even though he probably gets past it at some point by the time we reach BB, being in the desert again, and having guns pointed at him again by guys with masks would certainly bring all those neurotransmitters and memories flooding back.

Best guess: Nacho is involved with 'offing' Lalo, as mentioned above. He enlists Jimmy's help to either hide him for a bit, get him (and dad) to the Disappearer, or both. During that time, Nacho talks about why he has to do this - the Cousins and the rest of the Salamanca family, not to mention Eladio's contingent who have all seen his face now, will have no mercy if they find him, not to mention it's the only way to get away from Fring. Jimmy gets the message very clearly - that he's also in the game, and the Cousins have seen him and know who he is. So that's his first thought in the desert with Walt and Jesse - "Oh crap they finally found me. It wasn't me, it was Ignacio...."

At least that would make sense.

[Juliegirlj]

When Jimmy asked Kim if she was serious, she put up two gun fingers and virtually went bam bam. That cannot have been for nothing. I think Kim gets to be the scapegoat for Lalo’s troubles~ 

[PeterPirate]

3 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Kim's descent also rings untrue to me.  She was urging Jimmy to use his powers for good not that long ago.  She has an encounter with a cartel thug where she saves Jimmy, and now she's ready to take down someone who done her wrong?  I don't buy that.  I get that she enjoys scamming and gets a real turn-on, and has a problem with authority figures, but a full about-face of her moral code doesn't track.  Also, Jimmy is making a quick post-traumatic stress recovery.  I can't relate to any of it and I have to be able to find resonance in at least one character to care much about what happens next. 

There's more to Kim's descent than the encounter with Lalo.  Jimmy agreed to be a bagman for the cartel, he went missing for over a day, she found a bullet hole in the travel mug, Jimmy finally told her about the shootout in the desert, and they are currently in a hotel room.  Jimmy is not the only one suffering from PTSD.  

I suppose that in addition to prison and the grave and being disappeared, we have to add an insane asylum one of Kim's possible ending locations.

Edited April 21, 2020 by PeterPirate

[ahmerali]

4 minutes ago, Juliegirlj said:

When Jimmy asked Kim if she was serious, she put up two gun fingers and virtually went bam bam. That cannot have been for nothing. I think Kim gets to be the scapegoat for Lalo’s troubles~ 

Hmm....that would bring all the plots together, wouldn't it? Lalo returns to ABQ, and seeks out Kim because he can she that she's quite obviously the sharpest knife in the drawer amongst all of these people. He tells her to find Nacho and set up a 'meeting', because he knows that she can get Jimmy to do that.  Through a whole set of machinations involving the entire cast - Fring, Gus, everyone - the 'meeting' happens, but ends up with Nacho offing Lalo, and then Kim also realizes that she needs the Disappearer....

[Tikichick]

12 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I don't know Kim anymore.  She doesn't even look the same.  I guess that's some feat of acting and writing, but I'm not into it.

 

Notably the ponytail wasn't its usual self when she got ready and headed to the courthouse.  I found that significant.

[Blakeston]

8 hours ago, ahmerali said:

Oh, found one more thing: the Kansas City Royals nightshirt....Kansas City is in...Missouri. "Gene" put Missouri license plates on his car at the beginning of this season when he thought he had to disappear. I am thinking that's not just a coincidence.

I think it might be a nod to her being from Nebraska. A lot of Nebraskans root for the Royals, because of physical proximity. (And it's not as if they have a home state team they can root for.)

As for Kim's hatred of Howard, I don't think it stems from him putting her in doc review. If there's anything Howard did in the past that still has her stewing, it's probably his decision to let Jimmy know that Chuck killed himself.

But I think her animosity is mostly based on: 

a) his assumption that Kim's career decision was Jimmy's doing

b) Kim knowing about Jimmy's animosity for Howard (she likes the idea of pulling cons as a couple), and

c) Howard being a classic example of the kind of authority figure who pisses her off. He's a pampered pretty boy born into privilege.

[preeya]

11 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Can someone with a DVR tell me what is written on the box that Kim sits down when she steps into the courtroom to talk with Howard?

Here's a screen shot, although the smaller writing is not really legible.

[shapeshifter]

6 minutes ago, preeya said:

Here's a screen shot, although the smaller writing is not really legible.

Kudos to the props people for taking care to make illegible that which is not something on which fans should speculate. 

[scenario]

13 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

gunmen come to Lalo's house, kill everyone and Nacho disappears? it's pretty obvious who the rat is.

There's what looks like a combination lock on the back door. Nacho opened it after only being in the house a few hours. How did he get the combination if not from one of the other insiders?

[Tikichick]

For me it seems Kim's change in attitude has been ongoing.  She's become more and more disturbed about how the haves keep on keeping on, whether or not they've earned it or are deserving; while the have nots simply cannot ever move up.

She came to loathe Kevin from MV and everything he stood for.  He wants what he wants and everyone who stands in the way of his whims is irrelevant.  He got where he is not by talent and effort, but simply by being born to it.

Seems like she's possibly transferred a bit of that to Howard, particularly when he pushed the Chuck button.   She realizes that Chuck wasn't always right or truthful about Jimmy and that he was more than willing to let his unworthy little brother take care of him for years while sandbagging and disrespecting him into thinking Chuck was doing Jimmy the favor and that Chuck loved him.   She knows Howard knew how awfully Chuck was treating Jimmy, actively participating in hiding it from Jimmy -- and now he wants to overlook all of that and say that Chuck's viewpoint was right?  She is the only person who has any real idea what Chuck and his death truly did to Jimmy.   Now Howard is simply another entitled brat who has because it was handed to him.

Mix all of that with her absolute terror when Jimmy didn't come home, seeing his coffee mug with a bullet through the middle -- and then the confrontation with Lalo in their living room.  Doesn't seem so out of the blue to me that Kim would snap.

[MrWhyt]

8 minutes ago, scenario said:

There's what looks like a combination lock on the back door. Nacho opened it after only being in the house a few hours. How did he get the combination if not from one of the other insiders?

see my previous post about shimming the lock. 2 inside people is one more than it takes to get the back door open.

[ShadowFacts]

8 minutes ago, scenario said:

There's what looks like a combination lock on the back door. Nacho opened it after only being in the house a few hours. How did he get the combination if not from one of the other insiders?

Do you mean the padlock that he picked open with some metal that he looked to be cutting up in the kitchen before he went outside?  I didn't see a combination lock.  Lalo would suspect him not just because he was up and about at 3 a.m. but because he even asked Nacho if he got lost coming back from fetching the liquor. 

[ahmerali]

4 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

For me it seems Kim's change in attitude has been ongoing.  She's become more and more disturbed about how the haves keep on keeping on, whether or not they've earned it or are deserving; while the have nots simply cannot ever move up.

She came to loathe Kevin from MV and everything he stood for.  He wants what he wants and everyone who stands in the way of his whims is irrelevant.  He got where he is not by talent and effort, but simply by being born to it.

Seems like she's possibly transferred a bit of that to Howard, particularly when he pushed the Chuck button.   She realizes that Chuck wasn't always right or truthful about Jimmy and that he was more than willing to let his unworthy little brother take care of him for years while sandbagging and disrespecting him into thinking Chuck was doing Jimmy the favor and that Chuck loved him.   She knows Howard knew how awfully Chuck was treating Jimmy, actively participating in hiding it from Jimmy -- and now he wants to overlook all of that and say that Chuck's viewpoint was right?  She is the only person who has any real idea what Chuck and his death truly did to Jimmy.   Now Howard is simply another entitled brat who has because it was handed to him.

Mix all of that with her absolute terror when Jimmy didn't come home, seeing his coffee mug with a bullet through the middle -- and then the confrontation with Lalo in their living room.  Doesn't seem so out of the blue to me that Kim would snap.

I like your analysis and think it's spot on, but I do agree with the abruptness and lack of detail making it difficult to comprehend and follow. It is a bit like the tail end of Game of Thrones - why is she doing this all of a sudden? It doesn't make sense at first glance, at least in BCS they have the opportunity to fill in some of the holes for the not-so-hardcore viewers.

I think the bottom line is that Kim's attitude turn is so crucial, so vital to the story, that you can't just gloss it over and say, "Ok, she's like this now," as the GoT producers did. I am confident that the BCS folks won't let it just linger.

 

[shapeshifter]

To me, the episode title, "Something Unforgiveable," seems to primarily describe the slaughtered woman, then Kim's feelings about Howard's remarks about Jimmy, and lastly Lalo's opinion of what went down (as well as Gus's reasons for instigating it). 
Is that about right? 

[ByTor]

53 minutes ago, ahmerali said:

Best guess: Nacho is involved with 'offing' Lalo, as mentioned above. He enlists Jimmy's help to either hide him for a bit, get him (and dad) to the Disappearer, or both. During that time, Nacho talks about why he has to do this - the Cousins and the rest of the Salamanca family, not to mention Eladio's contingent who have all seen his face now, will have no mercy if they find him, not to mention it's the only way to get away from Fring. Jimmy gets the message very clearly - that he's also in the game, and the Cousins have seen him and know who he is. So that's his first thought in the desert with Walt and Jesse - "Oh crap they finally found me. It wasn't me, it was Ignacio...."

At least that would make sense.

Except it wouldn't make sense for Saul to think Lalo sent someone to kidnap him if he knows he's dead.

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

1 hour ago, Armchair Critic said:

Kim with no ponytail curl = Evil Kim?

I noticed the relaxation of the pony.  She's free.  Facing down Lalo just freed her.  Mostly kidding, but it is a new Kim we're seeing.

You may be kidding, but I think you're spot on.

[ahmerali]

Just now, shapeshifter said:

To me, the episode title, "Something Unforgiveable," seems to primarily describe the slaughtered woman, then Kim's feelings about Howard's remarks about Jimmy, and lastly Lalo's opinion of what went down (as well as Gus's reasons for instigating it). 
Is that about right? 

All true, except that the actual words were used during Kim and Jimmy's pillow talk about she planned to do to Howard. She says that his misconduct would have to be "something...unforgivable"

 

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, Armchair Critic said:

Kim with no ponytail curl = Evil Kim?

It turns out the ponytail was holding all of her evil at bay, and when she started wearing her hair down, all of the evil came falling out! 

Maybe the ponytail will finally be what brings down Lalo? He clearly cannot be killed by conventional weaponry and tactics! 

[ahmerali]

Just now, ByTor said:

Except it wouldn't make sense for Saul to think Lalo sent someone to kidnap him if he knows he's dead.

 

See my note. The Cousins have seen Saul and know who he is. He knows how unpredictable and loco Lalo, Tuco, and the entire family can be. Even if Lalo were dead and Jimmy knows that, there's always that chance that someone is going to come looking for him.

[peeayebee]

11 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Lalo is just flat-out boring to me, especially now that he's an unkillable superhuman.

I don't see anything he has done that I'd call superhuman. In last night's ep, he was lucky to see one of the hitmen in the window, so he pulled Ciro's body in front of him to take the bullet. Then he smartly grabbed the pan with hot oil to throw it in the face of another hitman. He escaped thru the tunnel then returned to ambush the rest.

2 hours ago, ByTor said:

I thought this was the 1st instance of truly poor acting by Seehorn.  When she started laughing at Howard, it sounded so forced that I thought Kim was actually repulsed by what Jimmy did to Howard but then fake laughed to piss Howard off, which of course is NOT what happened.

I don't think it was poor acting. I think Kim WAS forcing out a laugh to show Howard that she didn't care about these so-called terrible things Jimmy did to Howard. 

1 hour ago, MrWhyt said:

he shimmed the lock.

I happened to try that a couple of months ago with a lock we'd lost the key to. I couldn't get it to work. 😞

Can someone remind me why Howard put Kim in document review? 

I wonder how serious Kim is about ruining Howard. She and Jimmy were playing with funny scams on him -- I loved Jimmy saying that they substitute his suntan lotion with sunblock so when he goes in his tanning bed he... doesn't get tan 😆 -- then she gets serious, which could just be more fantasy and talking out loud to see how it all sounds. She loves planning and seeing those plans work.

I can see how her successful arguments to Lalo made her feel even more confident. Maybe the ego boost made her wonder how far she could go, how many more overbearing, intimidating, know-it-all men she could take down.

But she wants to create a pro bono firm because all the good will excuse the bad.

[chick binewski]

11 hours ago, scenario said:

She trying to talk herself into it. They've been showing her sliding down the slope for at least 3 years. She's been getting more and more out of touch with reality. I'm not sure why but it seems logical to me. 

 

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

I do think we are getting to a more clear answer as to what attracts Kim to Jimmy, and it isn't just what Jimmy is, but rather what he is not. Jimmy is many things, but he most definitely is not a figure of power and authority, and those qualities repulse Kim.

I do think Seehorn's performance in the season finale helped sell me on the fact this version of Kim was inevitable and we should have seen it coming (even if the writers weren't sure until mid-season 5). Her reaction when Jimmy challenged her ability to go lower was pretty chilling.

I agree that there are clearly triggers for Kim, specifically male authority - and I think that's a great thing to explore in such a male-centric show. Kim has been devolving by following the least traditionally authoratative but most destructive guy for years. And have we ever seen that ponytail more limp?

I actually liked Lalo's story this ep and am a bit fixated on the choice to close with his scene instead of Jimmy & Kim.