S05.E10: Something Unforgiveable

[PeterPirate]

22 hours ago, ahmerali said:

I think by the time BB rolls around, Saul will have a learned a lot from her.

It will be awesome to re-watch BB in that new context.  We're going to see Kim's fingerprints everywhere.  

 

On 4/22/2020 at 7:30 AM, Tikichick said:

I think Kim's apparently difficult upbringing, her determined and very hardworking approach to getting herself out of her bad circumstances and get herself "somewhere good"  have to be constantly part of the lens when looking at Kim.  She never lets herself forget it.

What happened when she got to where she worked like a dog to belong?   She meets a guy she winds up really caring about.   He's trying to change his life too, get to the good place with a lot of hard work.  She watches him get inexplicably blocked by power.  Initially she assumes that's Howard's doing, eventually she discovers with Jimmy and all of us that it's been Chuck all along.  Chuck who went out of his way repeatedly to be seen as Jimmy's benefactor and loving brother -- despite Jimmy's unworthiness.   All the while Jimmy had been genuine in his love for his brother and accepted his brother's attitude as just, and took care of Chuck when Chuck was in need.  Then she watches the power players move in to commandeer the big score with Sandpiper, something that only existed because of Jimmy's brains and efforts.  Jimmy tries to step up and play the game under the rules at Davis and Main, which is always prefaced as a gift he's being generously given.  He finds their game confining and unsatisfying and flips over the table and takes his ball and goes home.   Power steps in strongly to punish Kim for her piece in that mess.

Kim's disciplined determination to get herself to the "good place" gets grittier and she eventually lands Mesa Verde.   Power tries to maneuver her to the side and co opt this big score, but Jimmy intervenes and triggers a chain reaction that winds up with Kim landing the prize.  She discovers the "good place" she's been striving to get all these years isn't so much about doing much she actually finds good, aside from accumulating more and more wealth by people who couldn't spend all they already have in ten lifetimes.   Her past makes her sensitive to and unable to forget how hard it is to be caught in situations where having nothing means the odds are seriously stacked against you ever having the ability to ever crawl anywhere near the "good place" where you can enjoy some bits and pieces of good stuff.  Does she really want to spend her time and her talents enabling the wealthy and powerful to just keep acquiring more simply for the sake of acquisition, with no willingness to make even the slightest concession for others who have virtually nothing in comparison?

All of it fuels her desire to use her time and talents to help those she thinks need a chance to start their attempt at crawling towards the "good place".  Unfortunately she knows it won't pay the bills.  Enter Howard stage right, making unwittingly triggering comments that are meant with genuine consideration for her.  Kim's beyond disgusted by Kevin's refusal to arbitrarily even consider altering his plans for the new branch  by either situating it slightly differently on the land at issue, allowing the old guy to live out his days in the home he loves, or move to the different site.   Either option is virtually neutral to the impact on Kevin.  Don't care, I want what I want when I want it, everybody else doesn't matter.  Howard was part of Chuck's ugly attempt to keep Jimmy from succeeding.  Suddenly she can balance the scales a bit and come up with a way to access a revenue stream to enable her to pay the bills while helping those she thinks deserve a chance to start their crawl to the "good place".

Sure, a lot of people who need pro bono legal assistance don't deserve the chance to start over.  Kim's discussion with the guy from the public defender's office was essentially about  how she can cherrypick the cases she wants.  I don't think she intends helping people she doesn't think deserve it

 

Excellent stuff.  I myself use the phrase "Power corrupts" as a cornerstone of my approach to life.  If they want to save the Star Wars franchise, they'll cast Rhea Seehorn as the next emperor.  

I will also add another theory, that Kim is driven by her need to prove that she is a better person than her mother.  And the more her association with Jimmy causes pain and trouble to others, the more she needs to "do good" to make up the karmic deficit.  And the more she needs to believe Jimmy won't do any more cartel work in the future and create even more debt.  

***** 

And another random thought:  Kim and Jimmy talking about bringing down Howard reminded me of the sex scene between Faye Dunaway and William Holden in Network.

Edited April 23, 2020 by PeterPirate

[Clanstarling]

On 4/20/2020 at 10:03 PM, Irlandesa said:

I did have a funny reaction about ages in this episode. I have not been bothered by the fact that the actors are about 15-20 years older than the characters they're playing until I saw Don Eladio.

I had the same issue. I haven't particularly noticed any of them, but Eladio stood out for some reason. Maybe because we only saw him in a handful of scenes.

On 4/21/2020 at 1:08 AM, Bannon said:

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that there have to be some major remaining character reveals, probably featuring a much younger Kim, next season. The writers specifically wrote Jimmy as being borderline shocked at Kim's ruthless, hateful, desire to harm Howard, and I think they intended for the audience to share that emotion. Which means the writers will give the audience more to chew on.

Good point.

 

[shapeshifter]

21 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

On 4/21/2020 at 1:00 PM, Ellaria Sand said:

I fear the worst for Nacho....My guess is that there is something or someone out there to help him.

Mike? Nah. Tuco?

5 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Tuco is still in prison.   Tuco is a Salamanca, so I don't think he'll be amenable to helping Nacho with anything that wouldn't wind up with Nacho meeting his fate in the desert.    

Right.
Tuco is a Salamanca.
But didn't Lalo introduce Nacho to Don Eladio as a friend of Tuco's?
Or am I remembering it wrong? 
   *sigh* I miss the old www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk scripts site. *sigh*

And what was in the recent episode dialog WRT Tuco's expected release date? 
Probably more important: What are Raymond Cruz's availability dates?

 

 

[ByTor]

3 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

If it was a satellite phone they used as was indicated by MrWhyt, then I guess that answers it.  You apparently don't need a makeshift tower if you have a satellite phone, which are designed for use in places with no cell network.  If I understand correctly.  That makes sense to me now that he could have received that call and then immediately his phone was useless again. 

This may be tech ignorance on my part, but if there was no cell reception, would he have been able to receive the call?  I knew it was a satellite phone, but it was how Nacho got the call that confused me.

[Tikichick]

55 minutes ago, ByTor said:

This may be tech ignorance on my part, but if there was no cell reception, would he have been able to receive the call?  I knew it was a satellite phone, but it was how Nacho got the call that confused me.

I'm confused about how that would happen too.  

I was speculating that they used some kind of antenna booster and Lalo may stumble across it, guess what it was used for -- and then use that information if he catches up with Nacho by baiting Nacho to say something to the contrary and then Lalo reveals what he found in a classic Salamanca lie detector move. 

[MrWhyt]

5 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I was initially asking about what the killers had for communication because I was trying to figure how Nacho got warned, then immediately had no cell again.  If it was a satellite phone they used as was indicated by MrWhyt, then I guess that answers it.  You apparently don't need a makeshift tower if you have a satellite phone, which are designed for use in places with no cell network.  If I understand correctly.  That makes sense to me now that he could have received that call and then immediately his phone was useless again. 

the bad guys had a sat phone,  Nacho had a standard cell. They would still have needed some kind of signal booster for Nacho's cell to receive a signal. 

[Dev F]

8 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

the bad guys had a sat phone,  Nacho had a standard cell. They would still have needed some kind of signal booster for Nacho's cell to receive a signal. 

The whole point of a cell phone is that it automatically connects to whatever compatible transmission tower is in the area, right? Nacho's phone wouldn't know the difference between him entering an area that has cell coverage and the commandos bringing a pirate transmitter online in an area that doesn't.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Dev F

[ShadowFacts]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Right.
Tuco is a Salamanca.
But didn't Lalo introduce Nacho to Don Eladio as a friend of Tuco's?
Or am I remembering it wrong? 
   *sigh* I miss the old www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk scripts site. *sigh*

And what was in the recent episode dialog WRT Tuco's expected release date? 
Probably more important: What are Raymond Cruz's availability dates?

 

 

Yes, Lalo did introduce him that way, and Eladio responded by wondering if Nacho is all right in the head.  I think it was said earlier that Tuco is getting released in 11 months. 

[Chick Chandler]

On 4/20/2020 at 10:28 PM, Dianaofthehunt said:

Most unsatisfying! Why couldn’t that gang of goons killed Lalo? No; I’m not buying it, Nobody gets that many chances. I’m heartsick.

I agree. Sloppy writing.

[Clanstarling]

16 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Right.
Tuco is a Salamanca.
But didn't Lalo introduce Nacho to Don Eladio as a friend of Tuco's?
Or am I remembering it wrong? 
   *sigh* I miss the old www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk scripts site. *sigh*

And what was in the recent episode dialog WRT Tuco's expected release date? 
Probably more important: What are Raymond Cruz's availability dates?

 

 

He did, but I'd guess the expression is in the same ballpark as "friend of the cartel." In other words, someone who worked for him.

15 hours ago, ByTor said:

This may be tech ignorance on my part, but if there was no cell reception, would he have been able to receive the call?  I knew it was a satellite phone, but it was how Nacho got the call that confused me.

There is the ability to set up mobile hot spots - but I'm guessing that wasn't available in the time period they're in.  I'm just accepting "yadda yadda technowizardry"

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Chick Chandler said:

On 4/20/2020 at 9:28 PM, Dianaofthehunt said:

Most unsatisfying! Why couldn’t that gang of goons killed Lalo? No; I’m not buying it, Nobody gets that many chances. I’m heartsick.

I agree. Sloppy writing.

I'm okay with it since it was already established that Lalo is a frickin Ninja.

Speaking of Lalo's Spidey sense, in this 10-minutes-to-3am exchange, I get the sense that Lalo was waiting up, on guard. That he expected the double cross.   

Quote

[Nacho] Another night owl, huh? You don't sleep?

[Lalo] Mnh-mnh. Not tonight. Yeah, I never sleep much. An hour, maybe two. It's enough. When it's like this? That's when I can think. I get my best ideas when everybody else is asleep. Some people... they call it a curse. I like it. 

I wonder: Does Lalo really only sleep an hour or 2 per night? Is that part of the Magical Realism surrounding his character? Or is he warning Nacho that he is not going to be taken out in the night?
--if Nacho is perceptive enough to realize Lalo cannot get by on an hour of sleep per night, so he's awake on purpose, and that his (Lalo's) Spidey sense will keep him alive
--which it does as he fends off bullets with a skillet.

 

[Dobian]

On 4/20/2020 at 10:29 PM, nuraman00 said:

So, does Lalo know that Nacho was involved in the assassination attempt?

It seems like that, but not sure.

Sure he does, that's who he was going after when they cut to the credits.  Nacho went into the kitchen for drinks, came out and all of a sudden there is a kitchen fire.  Moments later a hit squad is in the kitchen shooting at Lalo.  And Nacho is nowhere to be found.

I know this is a slow burn show, but this felt more like a regular episode than a season finale.  It ended with Lalo stalking off into the night and Kim heading to the bathroom.  I did like that they finally gave context to why Howard has been involved in this season.  Up until now I didn't see the point other than having him around to be Jimmy's occasional foil.  So this is to bring closure to Sandpiper, which was one of the show's first major plots.  It's the plot that will bring Jimmy and Kim's story full circle in the final season.

I think we saw how messed up Kim really is this season, and how her self-destructive tendencies might be her downfall at the end.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Dobian

[PeterPirate]

21 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I'm okay with it since it was already established that Lalo is a frickin Ninja.

Speaking of Lalo's Spidey sense, in this 10-minutes-to-3am exchange, I get the sense that Lalo was waiting up, on guard. That he expected the double cross.   

I wonder: Does Lalo really only sleep an hour or 2 per night? Is that part of the Magical Realism surrounding his character? Or is he warning Nacho that he is not going to be taken out in the night?
--if Nacho is perceptive enough to realize Lalo cannot get by on an hour of sleep per night, so he's awake on purpose, and that his (Lalo's) Spidey sense will keep him alive
--which it does as he fends off bullets with a skillet.

 

Lalo probably comes from the Amazon, where they deflect bullets with bracelets.  

(It's going to a long offseason.)

[ShadowFacts]

39 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I wonder: Does Lalo really only sleep an hour or 2 per night? Is that part of the Magical Realism surrounding his character? Or is he warning Nacho that he is not going to be taken out in the night?
--if Nacho is perceptive enough to realize Lalo cannot get by on an hour of sleep per night, so he's awake on purpose, and that his (Lalo's) Spidey sense will keep him alive
--which it does as he fends off bullets with a skillet.

I think nobody who consistently only sleeps only a couple hours a night can be as quick on his feet, physically and mentally, as Lalo is.  It is likely that Lalo did not trust Nacho.  He had a change of plan after his encounter with Kim and Jimmy, and was not just dropped off and picked up as previously planned.  He got to thinking who he could really trust, per Kim's lecture.  He knows there's at least one rat in the Salamanca organization who made it possible to try to grab his bail money.  Between Gus and Lalo, I don't see Nachito getting out alive, he's been down one too many bad choice roads. 

[shapeshifter]

52 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I think nobody who consistently only sleeps only a couple hours a night can be as quick on his feet, physically and mentally, as Lalo is.  It is likely that Lalo did not trust Nacho.  He had a change of plan after his encounter with Kim and Jimmy, and was not just dropped off and picked up as previously planned.  He got to thinking who he could really trust, per Kim's lecture.  He knows there's at least one rat in the Salamanca organization who made it possible to try to grab his bail money.  Between Gus and Lalo, I don't see Nachito getting out alive, he's been down one too many bad choice roads. 

Perhaps, but Nacho might prove to be a worthy foe for Lalo. Lalo is more experienced, but Nacho's relative youth can be an advantage too. Both were pretty quick thinking WRT utilizing the frying pan --each in his own way.

[peeayebee]

I'm taking his statement about not sleeping much at face value. I've heard about other (real) people who don't sleep much and do fine. Lalo's not sleeping much may have a little to do with needing to be alert for enemies, but I don't think he was suspecting Nacho at that moment.

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

I'm taking his statement about not sleeping much at face value. I've heard about other (real) people who don't sleep much and do fine. Lalo's not sleeping much may have a little to do with needing to be alert for enemies, but I don't think he was suspecting Nacho at that moment.

Agreed. Especially since the whole reason why Lalo brought Nacho down to Chihuahua was because he thought he was someone he could trust. He wouldn't have vouched for him with Don Eladio, let along brought him into his own home to wander around freely among the people he cares about, if he thought he might stab him in the back.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Dev F

[Chick Chandler]

On 4/20/2020 at 10:46 PM, Blakeston said:

So is Kim like Walter White, someone who's addicted to the thrill of risk? She can pretend her motive is to help the Sandpiper clients, or to punish Howard, but she really wants the high of another con - just like Walter pretended his only motivation was to help his family.

If she makes it appear that Howard committed some sort of huge ethical violation, that could easily destroy the Sandpiper residents' case before a settlement takes place. But I doubt she cares that much.

 

Unless somewhere early in the next season the writers show us a really good reason for Kim's hatred of Howard I'm calling "b.s" on the writing of an otherwise great show. They should not be just fabricating a major  piece of the story like that out of thin air. Of course they could always write for Jimmy to talk her out of it. But still.....

 

[Pike Ludwell]

It feels like a lot happened but nothing much changed, except Kim seems breaking further bad. And Nacho is now on the run from Lalo.

They could end the series in a similar way -- lots of things happen and it ends up in a way where we have no idea what the situaton is with Kim. Maybe she says she needs a vacation on her own, Saul waves goodbye. UNTIL, then it switches to Gene, somehow encountering Kim and their conversation explains why she disappeared from his life.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Pike Ludwell

[PeterPirate]

I'm still trying to work out the mechanics of the situation.

Gus' plan was to have the assault look like it was made by another competitor of the Salamancas south of the border.  Nobody in the cartel has knowledge of Nacho's involvement with Gus.  I think that part of Gus' plan is going to work out, and the cartel will not blame Gus for the assault.  

On the flip side, I don't see how the cartel does not conclude that Nacho was part of the attack.  Somebody had to open the back gate with shims, and Nacho's body is not found at the compound.  But Don Eladio may be enamored by Nacho's business acumen, and may allow him to take over the Salamanca territory north of the border and pick off the biker gangs.  (This is why Hank will refer to Walt's meth formula as "old style".  It hasn't been around because Nacho eliminated the bikers.  I think I saw this idea posted earlier in the thread.)  Don Eladio may even deliver the same type of "I know who you are" line to Nacho that he gave to Gus some years ago.    

Somehow, the Cousins are restrained from taking revenge on Nacho.  Lalo may tell them to leave Nacho alone so he can take revenge on his own.  Or maybe the cartel will keep them under wraps.  Or maybe, as button men, they aren't aware of who runs things north of the border and aren't aware of Nacho's existence or his part in the assault.  One way or another, the Cousins never learn Gus was behind the attack. 

Edited April 23, 2020 by PeterPirate

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Perhaps, but Nacho might prove to be a worthy foe for Lalo. Lalo is more experienced, but Nacho's relative youth can be an advantage too. Both were pretty quick thinking WRT utilizing the frying pan --each in his own way.

It was very quick thinking of Nacho to start an oil fire.  Of course he's had recent experience with participation in a fire at Los Pollos.  I don't know what he would have done if Lalo hadn't sent him in for the liquor, he would have had to go mano-a-mano I guess. 

[Redcat59]

8 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I think nobody who consistently only sleeps only a couple hours a night can be as quick on his feet, physically and mentally, as Lalo is.  It is likely that Lalo did not trust Nacho.  He had a change of plan after his encounter with Kim and Jimmy, and was not just dropped off and picked up as previously planned.  He got to thinking who he could really trust, per Kim's lecture.  He knows there's at least one rat in the Salamanca organization who made it possible to try to grab his bail money.  Between Gus and Lalo, I don't see Nachito getting out alive, he's been down one too many bad choice roads. 

I've wondered if Lalo might be a user.  That might account for his being able to stay awake and slight paranoia.  

[ShadowFacts]

7 hours ago, Dev F said:

Agreed. Especially since the whole reason why Lalo brought Nacho down to Chihuahua was because he thought he was someone he could trust. He wouldn't have vouched for him with Don Eladio, let along brought him into his own home to wander around freely among the people he cares about, if he thought he might stab him in the back.

Except none of them are on solid ground completely trusting anyone.  In this episode Eladio scoffed at Nacho's desire to not have to look over his shoulder, said something like you're in the wrong business then.  Lalo wouldn't think Nacho would be rampaging at his compound, but he also wasn't sleeping, so I'm not sure he didn't feel a need to be extra alert.  Which good thing for him he was.  If anything, his night guard situation was a little lacking.

1 hour ago, Redcat59 said:

I've wondered if Lalo might be a user.  That might account for his being able to stay awake and slight paranoia.  

I had not thought of that.  If so he handles the stuff better than cousin Tuco.

[MaryPatShelby]

On 4/20/2020 at 9:28 PM, Dianaofthehunt said:

Most unsatisfying! Why couldn’t that gang of goons killed Lalo? No; I’m not buying it, Nobody gets that many chances. I’m heartsick.

Agreed. There's no way that Gus et. al hired The Gang Who Can't Shoot Straight.  No way that Lalo would get the drop on each and every one of them.  Completely unbelievable and so disappointing. 

[nuraman00]

I read that the cook Yolanda was killed.  Is that true?

 

At about 1 hr, 23 minutes, on the DVR, right after a Jimmy and Kim scene, the episode is back in Mexico.  They show the dead body of one person in a yellow shirt.

 

Then one dead person in a blue shirt.

 

Then they show the backyard, where Lalo was sitting by the fire, earlier.

 

Is Yolanda the one in the blue shirt?

[shapeshifter]

I don’t know shirt colors, but yes, I thought her death was one of the other “unforgivable” things in the episode, and that the way Lalo introduced her made it sound like she was de facto family.  

[ByTor]

Lalo's obvious grief over finding Yolanda was great; we know he's not a "good guy", but it sure did a lot to humanize him.  Same thing in season 1 when we saw Tuco's affection toward his Abuela.

Someone way upthread mentioned actually feeling bad for Lalo being ambushed & rooting for him to make it out alive.  I was too.

[Ed-]

8 hours ago, MaryPatShelby said:

Agreed. There's no way that Gus et. al hired The Gang Who Can't Shoot Straight.  No way that Lalo would get the drop on each and every one of them.  Completely unbelievable and so disappointing. 

I think Mike wanted to keep Nacho alive, likely without explicitly telling Gus about this. Otherwise, I see no reason why Nacho needed to be called using a portable GSM transmitter, and the requirement to open the door for the gang. It was all done to save Nacho. If there had been no requirement to keep Nacho alive, the assassins could have easily climbed over the wall, or bombed the compound, or waited for Lalo to exit, etc.

I can't really call this requirement detrimental to their mission, but I guess it was really unfortunate. Without Nacho having to open the door, the gang could have sneakily climbed on top of the wall, and they could have instantly taken Lalo out while he was sitting outside. Lalo seems to be insanely good indoors and in small places in general (air vents, tunnels).

I don't know if Nacho is still that useful to Gus, since he does not seem to have enough intel about the cartel. Perhaps only as a bait?

[Tikichick]

18 minutes ago, Ed- said:

I think Mike wanted to keep Nacho alive, likely without explicitly telling Gus about this. Otherwise, I see no reason why Nacho needed to be called using a portable GSM transmitter, and the requirement to open the door for the gang. It was all done to save Nacho. If there had been no requirement to keep Nacho alive, the assassins could have easily climbed over the wall, or bombed the compound, or waited for Lalo to exit, etc.

I can't really call this requirement detrimental to their mission, but I guess it was really unfortunate. Without Nacho having to open the door, the gang could have sneakily climbed on top of the wall, and they could have instantly taken Lalo out while he was sitting outside. Lalo seems to be insanely good indoors and in small places in general (air vents, tunnels).

I don't know if Nacho is still that useful to Gus, since he does not seem to have enough intel about the cartel. Perhaps only as a bait?

How would the hit squad have had any way to know where Lalo would be until they went over the wall?

[Tikichick]

1 hour ago, ByTor said:

Lalo's obvious grief over finding Yolanda was great; we know he's not a "good guy", but it sure did a lot to humanize him.  Same thing in season 1 when we saw Tuco's affection toward his Abuela.

Someone way upthread mentioned actually feeling bad for Lalo being ambushed & rooting for him to make it out alive.  I was too.

For me Lalo is simply the Salamanca in the  package that might exist adjacent to civilized society, from a great distance.   The Salamancas are absolutely terrifying sociopaths and I generally watch all of them by peeking through my fingers.   Hector, Tuco, and the twins are all simply further along on the completely unhinged sociopath scale.  

[Ed-]

3 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

How would the hit squad have had any way to know where Lalo would be until they went over the wall?

I think they expected Lalo and the others to be inside, possibly asleep. So, in a way, Nacho made it harder for them by lighting up the kitchen and making Lalo alert. Keeping Nacho alive was a risk. A "kill all" order would have been easier. Nothing is ever 100% certain, but the probability of success with keeping Nacho alive was lower than otherwise. Nacho alerting Lalo in any way was part of this risk. For example, Lalo could have taken Nacho hostage right there on the patio, complicating things. Also, Lalo looking at the phone at the time of the phone call and seeing signal could have alerted him. Notice how the caller did not ask Nacho for any information regarding Lalo's whereabouts, the amount of gunmen inside, etc. Nacho's only goal was to open the door to save himself.

So, it is mildly ironic that without having to consider Nacho or the door at all, a guy from the hit squad could have taken a ladder, climbed on top of the wall, noticed Lalo, and shot him right there. We know that the team did not trigger any security measures while patiently waiting outside the door.

[Clanstarling]

15 hours ago, Redcat59 said:

I've wondered if Lalo might be a user.  That might account for his being able to stay awake and slight paranoia.  

I don't think he needs to be using to be paranoid - in his case it's totally justified and a survival mechanism. But user...perhaps.

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

For me Lalo is simply the Salamanca in the  package that might exist adjacent to civilized society, from a great distance.   The Salamancas are absolutely terrifying sociopaths and I generally watch all of them by peeking through my fingers.   Hector, Tuco, and the twins are all simply further along on the completely unhinged sociopath scale.  

You don't have to be a sociopath to be evil and a terrible person. And even evil, terrible people can love.

One thing I like about Lalo vs the other Salamancas is that he's not a one note bad guy. He has some depth, which makes him much more interesting and, for me, much more frightening. 

You can count on Hector and the Twins to be pure evil. There's no doubt they will react with violence to any insult. The twins aren't really even people, just terrifying cartoon slayers. Tuco has slightly more dimensions in that he cares about his abuela and in BB takes care of Hector. He's unpredictable mostly because of the drugs (perhaps), but no one would ever relax around him. But Lalo, he's both unpredictable and charming. If people don't know him, they wouldn't immediately be on alert, or understand that he will kill in a flash if it suits his needs. He's much smarter than the others, and far more dangerous, imo. But mostly, much more interesting.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Clanstarling

[ByTor]

6 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

One thing I like about Lalo vs the other Salamancas is that he's not a one note bad guy. He has some depth, which makes him much more interesting and, for me, much more frightening. 

Exactly!  For me, Tuco, the cousins, & Hector went from menacing to eyeroll-worthy.

6 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Tuco as well, though we've seen that he cares about his abuela and in BB takes care of Hector.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that.  In the ricin incident, why was Hector there?  As we know, he was already in the nursing home by then, but I got the impression from BB that Hector went to the nursing home during the BB timeline

Spoiler

because of Hank killing Tuco. 

Was he maybe allowed to be released to his family for visits?  

[Clanstarling]

5 minutes ago, ByTor said:

Exactly!  For me, Tuco, the cousins, & Hector went from menacing to eyeroll-worthy.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that.  In the ricin incident, why was Hector there?  As we know, he was already in the nursing home by then, but I got the impression from BB that Hector went to the nursing home during the BB timeline

  Reveal spoiler

because of Hank killing Tuco. 

Was he maybe allowed to be released to his family for visits?  

Good question.

Spoiler

Near as I can tell (going through the list of episodes on the wiki) the ricin episode is the first time we meet Hector in BB. So, based on not a lot of data, I would assume that Tuco started taking care of Hector after he got out of prison. Maybe he took him out of the home? And then he was taken back to the home after Hank killed Tuco?

 

[Tikichick]

1 hour ago, Ed- said:

I think they expected Lalo and the others to be inside, possibly asleep. So, in a way, Nacho made it harder for them by lighting up the kitchen and making Lalo alert. Keeping Nacho alive was a risk. A "kill all" order would have been easier. Nothing is ever 100% certain, but the probability of success with keeping Nacho alive was lower than otherwise. Nacho alerting Lalo in any way was part of this risk. For example, Lalo could have taken Nacho hostage right there on the patio, complicating things. Also, Lalo looking at the phone at the time of the phone call and seeing signal could have alerted him. Notice how the caller did not ask Nacho for any information regarding Lalo's whereabouts, the amount of gunmen inside, etc. Nacho's only goal was to open the door to save himself.

So, it is mildly ironic that without having to consider Nacho or the door at all, a guy from the hit squad could have taken a ladder, climbed on top of the wall, noticed Lalo, and shot him right there. We know that the team did not trigger any security measures while patiently waiting outside the door.

I didn't dispute a kill all order being the easier option.  I merely said the hit squad had no way of knowing what they'd actually find at the moment they went over the wall until they had done so.  They had no idea what the setup behind the wall was like.   They'd have no idea if they might find Lalo in his bed, out on the patio or in a bubble bath.  

 

[ShadowFacts]

Lalo has an interesting indefinable something about him, that the others do not.  I suppose that's why I can tolerate him onscreen a bit more than other Salamancas.  As far as having the dimension of loving people in their family or immediate orbit, that's true of Mike, too, he loves his granddaughter, but to me that's baseline human behavior.  He still is capable of murder and mayhem, he just recently executed Werner, someone he liked.  On the other hand, lots of non-murderous people could not give a rip about their people who have taken care of them, etc. so I guess these bits show some humanity in otherwise despicable people.  I'm not over Lalo killing the innocent wire transfer guy, though.  That was so unnecessary.  Now that the show has humanized Lalo by having him show affection for his people, he has even more fire in him to get to Nacho, beyond just offing him for his involvement in the attempt.  He will want to make him suffer, and his father is a good way.

[Ed-]

1 minute ago, ShadowFacts said:

Lalo has an interesting indefinable something about him, that the others do not.  I suppose that's why I can tolerate him onscreen a bit more than other Salamancas. [---]

It is interesting how that while Kim and Jimmy have been gradually breaking bad, some others like Lalo have been showing more redeeming qualities. Lalo's murder of a store clerk in S4 finale now stands out to me as strange, and almost out of character -- i.e. Lalo definitely has the wits to avoid murdering random people like that, and he seems to prepare well for various contingencies. It seems to me that the main characters are approaching the sort of a "middle" moral ground from vastly different starting points. In this regard, Kim and Lalo's actual meeting seems like a strange, but required event -- Lalo's starting point was quite low, Kim's very high, and they meet in the middle.

[nuraman00]

6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I don’t know shirt colors, but yes, I thought her death was one of the other “unforgivable” things in the episode, and that the way Lalo introduced her made it sound like she was de facto family.  

Was her death shown in the sequence that I described?  Or was it during another scene?

[nuraman00]

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I'm not over Lalo killing the innocent wire transfer guy, though.  That was so unnecessary. 

Fred saw Lalo's face.  He could have IDed him later on.

[Eulipian 5k]

11 minutes ago, nuraman00 said:

Was her death shown in the sequence that I described?  Or was it during another scene?

Not sure which scene, but they did linger on her blood stained shirt. Yeah, they killed his cook but I'm sure Lalo can always get free chicken with curly fries from another friend up north.

Wasn't the call to Nacho also to make sure the gang with the "kill everyone" orders would know who not to shoot?

Edited April 24, 2020 by Eulipian 5k

[Gobi]

14 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Not sure which scene, but they did linger on her blood stained shirt. Yeah, they killed his cook but I'm sure Lalo can always get free chicken with curly fries from another friend up north.

Wasn't the call to Nacho also to make sure the gang with the "kill everyone" orders would know who not to shoot?

The dead bodies of both the cook and the gardener were shown. In the phone call, Nacho pleaded that they not be killed; the assassin did not respond to his plea.

[PeterPirate]

10 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Lalo has an interesting indefinable something about him, that the others do not.  I suppose that's why I can tolerate him onscreen a bit more than other Salamancas.  As far as having the dimension of loving people in their family or immediate orbit, that's true of Mike, too, he loves his granddaughter, but to me that's baseline human behavior.  He still is capable of murder and mayhem, he just recently executed Werner, someone he liked.  On the other hand, lots of non-murderous people could not give a rip about their people who have taken care of them, etc. so I guess these bits show some humanity in otherwise despicable people.  I'm not over Lalo killing the innocent wire transfer guy, though.  That was so unnecessary.  Now that the show has humanized Lalo by having him show affection for his people, he has even more fire in him to get to Nacho, beyond just offing him for his involvement in the attempt.  He will want to make him suffer, and his father is a good way.

10 hours ago, Ed- said:

It is interesting how that while Kim and Jimmy have been gradually breaking bad, some others like Lalo have been showing more redeeming qualities. Lalo's murder of a store clerk in S4 finale now stands out to me as strange, and almost out of character -- i.e. Lalo definitely has the wits to avoid murdering random people like that, and he seems to prepare well for various contingencies. It seems to me that the main characters are approaching the sort of a "middle" moral ground from vastly different starting points. In this regard, Kim and Lalo's actual meeting seems like a strange, but required event -- Lalo's starting point was quite low, Kim's very high, and they meet in the middle.

Lalo has charm, that's for sure.  And I agree that Kim and Lalo--and Jimmy--will end up almost at the same moral level.  Don Vito Corleone started out a devoted, hard-working family man.  Micheal Corleone started out a war hero.  And they both went on to lead criminal empires.  If the current pattern holds, Kim will end up being the godmother--everything Saul does in BB will be something Kim either does or condones in BCS.  I can't say that I am "rooting" for Kim, any more than I did for the Corleones.  But I do find their stories engaging. 

One thing I will add is Lalo and Hector were quite willing to murder innocent bystanders who were not "in the game".  That's something neither the Corleones nor Mike did.  Saul only talks about taking out drug dealers, and I presume Kim will never become worse than that.  Those Salamancas, charming or not, bring a whole extra level of malevolence.   

Edited April 25, 2020 by PeterPirate

[ShadowFacts]

 

 

24 minutes ago, nuraman00 said:

Fred saw Lalo's face.  He could have IDed him later on.

Yes, that's the reason, but ID him for something relatively minor, and he was IDed anyway.  So that's why it rankles, unnecessary and awful.  The capability of killing an innocent person because he wants to investigate what Mike is doing . . . Mike and Jimmy are disturbed by this, Lalo not so much.

[Clanstarling]

52 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Yes, that's the reason, but ID him for something relatively minor, and he was IDed anyway.  So that's why it rankles, unnecessary and awful.  The capability of killing an innocent person because he wants to investigate what Mike is doing . . . Mike and Jimmy are disturbed by this, Lalo not so much.

I don't think Lalo had anything minor in mind when it came to hunting down Werner, but was thwarted. So I took it that at least in Lalo's mind it was necessary - dead men tell no tales and all of that. I think it's his modus operandi - he is a Salamanca, after all, just with a little charm in the mix.

[Quilt Fairy]

On 4/22/2020 at 1:50 PM, PeterPirate said:

On 4/22/2020 at 11:01 AM, ahmerali said:

I think by the time BB rolls around, Saul will have a learned a lot from her.

It will be awesome to re-watch BB in that new context.  We're going to see Kim's fingerprints everywhere.  

I would love to have the last season of BCS actually overlap the beginning of BB.  Sort of a Rosencranz and Guildenstern Are Dead variation of BCS where you know what's happening "on stage" but now get to see what's happening "off stage". 

[Gobi]

21 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I would love to have the last season of BCS actually overlap the beginning of BB.  Sort of a Rosencranz and Guildenstern Are Dead variation of BCS where you know what's happening "on stage" but now get to see what's happening "off stage". 

From what I understand, the last season of BCS will overlap B.B. to some degree.

[wendyg]

I think the key to Kim is the desire for respect. It wasn't that Howard put her in doc review; it's that when she did the thing all law firms want their *partners* to do and landed a big client, she was ignored. "You don't save me. I save me." is what made the character for me - but Howard paid no attention. Then, after all the work for Mesa Verde, Kevin ignored her advice. Acker didn't respect her either - and that goaded her into trying to save his home - but he didn't *know* her. And then after everything else that's gone on, Howard patronizes her. I think she cared about becoming a good lawyer and carving out a place for herself in the corporate world because she thought the reward would be respect - and it wasn't. So, like Jimmy in season 4 (when he gave that lecture to the poor student who didn't get the grant), she's concluded that she will never win at their game. And if she can't, then screw them, let's take some of their resources and go help other  people who get no respect and deserve better.

BREAKING BAD always seemed to me a classic Greek tragedy: the hero is brought down by his own flaws - and brings disaster to everyone around him. BCS is following a similar trajectory.

[shapeshifter]

35 minutes ago, wendyg said:

I think the key to Kim is the desire for respect. It wasn't that Howard put her in doc review; it's that when she did the thing all law firms want their *partners* to do and landed a big client, she was ignored. "You don't save me. I save me." is what made the character for me - but Howard paid no attention. Then, after all the work for Mesa Verde, Kevin ignored her advice. Acker didn't respect her either - and that goaded her into trying to save his home - but he didn't *know* her. And then after everything else that's gone on, Howard patronizes her. I think she cared about becoming a good lawyer and carving out a place for herself in the corporate world because she thought the reward would be respect - and it wasn't. So, like Jimmy in season 4 (when he gave that lecture to the poor student who didn't get the grant), she's concluded that she will never win at their game. And if she can't, then screw them, let's take some of their resources and go help other  people who get no respect and deserve better.

BREAKING BAD always seemed to me a classic Greek tragedy: the hero is brought down by his own flaws - and brings disaster to everyone around him. BCS is following a similar trajectory.

Exactly, @wendyg! Kim is all about wanting respect, just like I am, but I couldn’t see it. It’s like how I always pronounce your screen name in my head as “when dig” instead of “Wendy G” LOL.
Okay. So let’s forget everything else that was posted above about Kim’s motivations (at least my posts).

Jimmy/Saul and Lalo and Gus and Eladio are all about respect too, aren’t they? All of the characters could probably also be described as wanting respect, but Nacho and Mike are perhaps more about the survival of their family, and Howard and Kevin are perhaps more about building up thick walls of wealth to protect their personal comfort. 

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, wendyg said:

I think the key to Kim is the desire for respect. It wasn't that Howard put her in doc review; it's that when she did the thing all law firms want their *partners* to do and landed a big client, she was ignored. "You don't save me. I save me." is what made the character for me - but Howard paid no attention. Then, after all the work for Mesa Verde, Kevin ignored her advice. Acker didn't respect her either - and that goaded her into trying to save his home - but he didn't *know* her. And then after everything else that's gone on, Howard patronizes her. I think she cared about becoming a good lawyer and carving out a place for herself in the corporate world because she thought the reward would be respect - and it wasn't. So, like Jimmy in season 4 (when he gave that lecture to the poor student who didn't get the grant), she's concluded that she will never win at their game. And if she can't, then screw them, let's take some of their resources and go help other  people who get no respect and deserve better.

BREAKING BAD always seemed to me a classic Greek tragedy: the hero is brought down by his own flaws - and brings disaster to everyone around him. BCS is following a similar trajectory.

Beautifully put. I didn't synthesize it down to this, but I like it better than what I came up with.

I think Gilligan often writes tragedies. They are pretty compelling, make you fall in love with (or fall in hate with) a character and then have them fall because of their own nature. You're either rooting for them, and then anguished when they fall, or rooting against them and have some satisfaction when they ultimately fail. And not just the lead characters, that's why I love these two series so much.

[PeterPirate]

15 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I would love to have the last season of BCS actually overlap the beginning of BB.  Sort of a Rosencranz and Guildenstern Are Dead variation of BCS where you know what's happening "on stage" but now get to see what's happening "off stage". 

I know, right?  If the current trend continues, it means that Jimmy McGill will never go away.  Saul Goodman will always be be the on-stage persona, regardless of whether we see Kim Wexler during the BB timeline.  The fact that BCS evokes thoughts of Hamlet is a testament to the show's creators and writing staff.  This show is light-years beyond its original premise.

ETA:  If they did want to make a parallel show about Jimmy and Kim during the BB timeline, they could take from The Picture of Dorian Grey, where Saul Goodman maintains a relatively youthful appearance but morphs into tired and haggard Jimmy when he gets home. 

Edited April 25, 2020 by PeterPirate