S05.E07: The Ballad of Roger Mac

[Athena]

Quote

The Regulator Rebellion reaches a boiling point, forcing Jamie to face his fear.

Reminder: This is the No Book Talk topic. No discussion of the books is allowed including saying "in the books..." Posts may be removed without warning.

[Carlylefan]

Heart beating, but broken. Tour de force acting.

[ferjy]

Nice to see Graham McTavish back! At first I thought, “What, Dougal is back? How?” Of course it’s his and Geillis’s son, shit that he is. 

Speaking of which, it’s back to shit on Roger time again. The luckless wonder just can’t catch a break. That can’t be him under the hood. He’ll have lent his hanky to some other guy that was hanged while he’s tied up in the shed somewhere. 

No hero’s death for Murtagh. Shot by a trigger happy youth. You had to wince knowing it was Jamie who put the idea of shoot first and ask questions later in the kid’s head. I was never a Murtagh fan, but it was a good parting scene with Jamie. 

I was more aghast at Claire’s syringe being shattered. She was so mortified that she must have only brought the one with her from the past. Now Claire will have to invent the hypodermic syringe too. Sorry, Alexander Wood. I wonder how many more inventors will be discredited before Claire is done. 😀

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by ferjy

[NeenerNeener]

Jamie should have told Tryon that the red coat clashes with his hair.

4 hours ago, ferjy said:

Sorry, Alexander Wood. I wonder how many more inventors will be discredited before Claire is done.

Yeah, Claire must be descended from Ayla in Clan of the Cave Bear.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Roger annoys me so the title of the episode had me worried that I would be stuck watching an entire hour of Roger.

I'd be totally fine if Roger is dead but based on the fact that they didn't reveal the face of the hanging man who they all assume is Roger, I'm guessing it's just a fake out cliff hanger.

RIP Murtagh. I would have gladly kept him instead of Roger.

Heh and RIP Claire's syringe of penicillin!

Edited March 29, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[goldilocks]

I wonder if they’ll show Jocasta finding out about Murtagh. 😥

I don’t mind keeping Roger but can they hang Bree instead? Sophie is just bad and Bree isn’t all that interesting.

 

[nara]

Birthday scene and subsequent shirtless Jamie felt gratuitous...and underlined the fact that Sam looks too young.

Of course, Roger is not dead. Bet that Morag’s husband or one of his cronies stole his nice coat. But I found the episode title to be too ironic for my taste, given that they kept Roger out of the battle.

RIP Murtagh. I am glad we had you for as long as we did. This will be the trigger for Jamie and Claire to lead the American Revolution. They will be the new George and Martha Washington. 
I guess we knew this was coming after scene with Jocasta, but he’s my second fave character to die today (referring to another show) so I am a little sad.

Glad Bree brought up the potential impact to America if the Regulators succeed. Also, since Sophie gets bashed quite regularly on this forum, I am going to go on record as saying I like her In this role.

[DoctorAtomic]

7 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Roger annoys me so the title of the episode had me worried that I would be stuck watching an entire hour of Roger.

Me too. I can only take small doses of him. Actually, I didn't mind last week because he did something useful. I don't know why he's such a doormat. 

Did this actually happen in real life history?

[AheadofStraight]

19 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Me too. I can only take small doses of him. Actually, I didn't mind last week because he did something useful. I don't know why he's such a doormat. 

Did this actually happen in real life history?

Yes, it is based on real events https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Alamance

[DoctorAtomic]

I was just looking it up when Bree rode in to tell them about it. I'm going to have to disagree with her a little that this particular battle would have ruined the revolution, though it's a fair question. I just don't think people in Boston really give much of a shit of what was going on in North Carolina. The massacre and tea party are still years away enough that this isn't likely to make much of a ripple. 

I really wish there was more of this on the show. One of the things about the first and second seasons that was so compelling was the whole race against time theme.

Although here, too little too late tbh. 

I like how Roger was like, 'don't die Mistress MacKenzie!' Then he pops the guy like an idiot. Jamie was creepy af with the redcoat on. 

I kind of wish they time jumped more closer to the revolution. I mean yeah, the regulator plot came to a climax, but eh, when you consider the revolution is coming up. Although I can see why this would galvanize Jamie to want to fight in the revolution, I don't know if he actually needed that motivation. It's not like he's doubted Claire's accounts of the future. 

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by DoctorAtomic

[DoctorAtomic]

8 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Heh and RIP Claire's syringe of penicillin!

First of all, that guy needs to be taken out. Second, why bring only one?

I think Murtagh had to die unfortunately. Being such a force for the regulators, with the loss, they were going to want to keep fighting until they all got killed. I don't think he could have convinced everyone to just let it go. 

How old is Murtagh supposed to be? I mean, you figure surviving Culloden, making it all the way to the new world is pretty good. 

I'm also not buying for a second that Roger is actually dead. Though he was stupid for provoking his great-great-...-grandfather. The thing is, I kind of don't care either. 

Edited March 29, 2020 by DoctorAtomic

[Scarlett45]

18 hours ago, ferjy said:

I was more aghast at Claire’s syringe being shattered. She was so mortified that she must have only brought the one with her from the past. Now Claire will have to invent the hypodermic syringe too. Sorry, Alexander Wood. I wonder how many more inventors will be discredited before Claire is done. 😀

Yes what a PRICK omg. How dare he smash Claire’a syringe. Also very short sighted- if he was injured that’s who’s be saving him as well. Asshole. 

6 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I think Murtagh had to die unfortunately. Being such a force for the regulators, with the loss, they were going to want to keep fighting until they all got killed. I don't think he could have convinced everyone to just let it go. 

How old is Murtagh supposed to be? I mean, you figure surviving Culloden, making it all the way to the new world is pretty good. 

If Jaime is 50 I think Murtagh is between 67-70years old. I’m going to tell the actor on Instagram how great he was. 

[DoctorAtomic]

70 years old for 1770 is quite good.

[Cdh20]

Before I read anyone’s posts- WOW! That is all! Best episode in a long time!

[Glade]

A powerful episode; I was moved by Sam's performance throughout. Murtaugh's storyline has been so incredible this whole season and it's heart-breaking that he's gone. But, I'm very glad that we got more of him then is reportedly in the books. I didn't recognize that it was Graham playing a new role, since he's buried beneath all that hair. But it's interesting how in a way Jaime's blood ritual invoking Dougal caused him to appear as Morag's disgusting abusive husband, leading to Roger's possible death. I don't think he's dead though, someone just stole his coat, and since the preview for next week seems to imply that Roger is missing, perhaps sold into slavery again?

[Cdh20]

Seriously Roger cannot get a break! Poor Roger.  😢

If this is Sam & Cait having more input, carry on you two! 👏🏻👏🏻

[BitterApple]

Roger definitely isn't dead. The hooded bodies was a dead giveaway that it's a fakeout.

I normally cringe through most of Sophie Skelton's scenes, but I actually thought she was decent in this episode.

Morton was pretty lucid after being shot through the lung. Claire must be some kind of medical wizard. Bummer about her syringe, although I'm sure she'll have another one Macgyver'ed in the next episode. 

I wasn't expecting Murtaugh to die. The fact that it came at the hands of a farm boy after the fighting was over was an especially hard kick in the teeth.

Sam gave a magnificent performance. This episode by far made up for last week's dud.

[HerkyJerky]

11 hours ago, nara said:

but he’s my second fave character to die today (referring to another show)

Just curious, who was that on what show?

[jenn31]

21 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Roger annoys me so the title of the episode had me worried that I would be stuck watching an entire hour of Roger.

Singing, no less. I was afraid he’d be crooning throughout the episode to anyone who would listen. I would hang him myself.  

[nara]

6 hours ago, HerkyJerky said:

Just curious, who was that on what show?

In spoilers in case other people watch it 

Spoiler

Max on Homeland 

 

[sadie]

I was bored to tears. 

[Cdh20]

21 hours ago, nara said:

Birthday scene and subsequent shirtless Jamie felt gratuitous...and underlined the fact that Sam looks too young.

Of course, Roger is not dead. Bet that Morag’s husband or one of his cronies stole his nice coat. But I found the episode title to be too ironic for my taste, given that they kept Roger out of the battle.

RIP Murtagh. I am glad we had you for as long as we did. This will be the trigger for Jamie and Claire to lead the American Revolution. They will be the new George and Martha Washington. 
I guess we knew this was coming after scene with Jocasta, but he’s my second fave character to die today (referring to another show) so I am a little sad.

Glad Bree brought up the potential impact to America if the Regulators succeed. Also, since Sophie gets bashed quite regularly on this forum, I am going to go on record as saying I like her In this role.

We so deserved some gratuitous shirtless Jamie! At least we got to smile & sigh  at the J/C moments, because most of the time I was gasping or crying! 

[BitterApple]

Does anyone know why this episode was called "The Ballad of Roger Mac" when he wasn't part of the battle and didn't do anything significant besides getting himself hanged? 

3 hours ago, sadie said:

I was bored to tears. 

The only part that had me eye-rolling was when they discovered Roger hanging from the tree. It was supposed to be this big, emotional moment, but I've been watching long enough to know it'll either a) not be Roger's body or b) Claire will CPR him back to life. Murtaugh's death was an emotional sucker punch, but this fell flat.

Edited March 30, 2020 by BitterApple

[DoctorAtomic]

At this point in television history, is there anyone that has been watching tv for more than 5 years who thought it actually is Roger? I don't get why shows do that because it's so derivative at this point. 

I mean, I will laugh if it really is him and he's most truly dead, but yeah if it is, Claire will of course save him. I kind of hope that does happen and Roger tears into Jamie for shitting on him so much that he's taking huge risks to prove himself. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

4 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I mean, I will laugh if it really is him and he's most truly dead, but yeah if it is, Claire will of course save him. I kind of hope that does happen and Roger tears into Jamie for shitting on him so much that he's taking huge risks to prove himself. 

What happened to Roger in this episode can't be laid at Jamie's feet. It was Roger hugging Morag, and then throwing the first punch at his great-great-great-great grandfather, that set this in motion. Who's to say that he wouldn't have made it back home safely if he'd just moved on?

[DoctorAtomic]

Two separate issues. 

[Lily H]

On ‎3‎/‎29‎/‎2020 at 1:02 PM, nara said:

Birthday scene and subsequent shirtless Jamie felt gratuitous...and underlined the fact that Sam looks too young.

Maybe so, but I'm not complaining! Also, glad to hear that Little Jamie "still stands up by himself every morning"!

[lightninggirl]

On 3/29/2020 at 7:47 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Roger annoys me so the title of the episode had me worried that I would be stuck watching an entire hour of Roger.

I'd be totally fine if Roger is dead but based on the fact that they didn't reveal the face of the hanging man who they all assume is Roger, I'm guessing it's just a fake out cliff hanger.

Hear, hear. Any day that Roger gets the shit beat out of him/drawn n' quartered/hung/flayed/set on fire is a good day. He's a pathetic waste of flesh.

Also, slightly Roger related: does that baby not look identical to the dude who plays Bonnet? It could be his kid IRL.

[Scarlett45]

On 3/29/2020 at 12:02 PM, nara said:

Birthday scene and subsequent shirtless Jamie felt gratuitous...and underlined the fact that Sam looks too young.

Yes he really really does. I know a few men in their 50s/early 60s that are amateur body builders (my father’s little brother for one). Yes they do have very fit muscular bodies,(and they look great) but they do NOT look like they did when they were 30. Especially in the face.
 

Their muscles are tone and there isn’t excess body fat but their skin isn’t tight like Sam’s and you can see slack in their face. 
 

The makeup people couldn’t even work on his face/jaw line?? 

[Lola82]

8 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes he really really does. I know a few men in their 50s/early 60s that are amateur body builders (my father’s little brother for one). Yes they do have very fit muscular bodies,(and they look great) but they do NOT look like they did when they were 30. Especially in the face.
 

Their muscles are tone and there isn’t excess body fat but their skin isn’t tight like Sam’s and you can see slack in their face. 
 

The makeup people couldn’t even work on his face/jaw line?? 

I have no idea how the story goes in the books but I’ll be perfectly fine if Sam has the same body playing an 80-year-old. I watch the show to escape the depressing reality anyway.

[DoctorAtomic]

The whole point of these premium channels is for gratuitous nudity all around. 

[Cdh20]

I had a chance to watch again this morning. Thought I would add some of my positive thoughts:

The first scene with Roger& Bree was sweet, I thought their goodbye kiss was good. Although I have no idea who's house they are at? A friend of Jocasta's?

I loved the tent scene with Jamie & Claire, Jamie taking stock of his hand (that Claire fixed), the teasing, the  touches ,the singing (from Claire's time) so well done, especially with the focus on Jamie- some female gaze for us(it was his bd)! The first time around my husband talked though this as he sometimes does, he also lost his dad quite young, so will have outlived him soon. I like this director (I think he did the other ones I loved this season). Speaking of that female gaze-thank you for Jamie in the river. LOL to the foreshadowing of calling on Dougal, as he is reincarnated as Buck, the asshole. 

Jamie's look of disgust at putting on that coat was amazing (Sam conveys so much with his expressions, I can't believe he is not nominated for awards). And Claire's face too when she sees him was perfect. In fact their whole conversation about good luck was perfect! Claire does not say I love you often enough. A lot of call backs to season 2 Prestonpans I felt, with Jamie commanding an army & Claire setting up a hospital, them knowing who wins, (& losing a loved one).

The Browns are most certainly bad news!

Jamie's first "Help ME " tore me up, but I really started to bawl when Claire said goodbye "my friend" to Murtagh. I did think he might die this season, after epi 1, & 6.

I love a good cliffhanger!!!

Kudos to the writers, director, all the actors! Might have me thinking of  changing my top 10.

 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2020 by Cdh20
adding a thought!

[areca]

On 3/29/2020 at 3:26 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

The massacre and tea party are still years away enough that this isn't likely to make much of a ripple. 

The American revolution kicked off at Lexington and Concorde and had nothing to do with tea.  The government was attempting to confiscate people's guns.

[DoctorAtomic]

That wasn't exactly the point I was making though, with regards to Bree speculating how this battle in this episode might affect the revolution, while I was contrasting how other very famous events like the Boston massacre and the tea party were more directly related to the upcoming revolution and that news of some battle in North Carolina probably wouldn't have made the papers there, so her concern, while not unfounded, was probably not as dire as she thought. 

Edited April 5, 2020 by DoctorAtomic

[BitterApple]

I'm kind of surprised this crew still thinks they can affect the future. Claire and Jamie spent two years trying to prevent Culloden and failed.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 3/29/2020 at 1:02 PM, nara said:

Glad Bree brought up the potential impact to America if the Regulators succeed.

More like the impact if they disperse.

[Camera One]

The actor who played Jaime did a very good job with Murtagh's death.  I'm not surprised he stuck around for the battle, though they sort of wrote the character into a corner.  I don't think the Regulator storyline did Murtagh any favors, so it's a shame his final season was wasted on that.

Roger, you don't hug other people's wives in the 1700s.  Sheesh, you should know that!  He looked so happy to see his fellow shipmate again, though.

I liked Brianna using her knowledge of history, though took her long enough.  One place name and suddenly all these memories flooded back, and she suddenly remembered a "spark" for the American Revolution occurred there?  I suppose maybe she didn't associate that name with North Carolina.

I thought Fergus was part of Jaime's militia?

Wearing a red coat in the forest is basically waving a flag to be shot at.  

I'm assuming that angry father-in-law shot the guy who ran away with his daughter.  When he stepped on Claire's syringe, I was ready to kill him myself.  

Edited April 19, 2021 by Camera One

[DoctorAtomic]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

Roger, you don't hug other people's wives in the 1700s. 

To be fair, they were related. iirc Roger said as much. It was Roger taking a swing at the husband that started everything. I think the husband was going to let the hug slide. 

[Camera One]

I was reading the Wikipedia entry on the Battle, and it said:

Quote

Many of the main leaders remained in hiding until 1772, when they were no longer considered outlaws. Many Regulators moved further west into places such as Tennessee, notably establishing both the Watauga Association in 1772 and the State of Franklin in 1784.

So Murtagh didn't have to die.  

Quote

The battle was over with nine deaths for the governor's forces and about the same for the Regulators. Virtually everyone captured in the battle was fully pardoned in exchange for an allegiance to the crown. Six Regulators were, however, hanged for their part in the uprising, including some officers of the colonial militia who had joined ranks with the Regulator's side.

I also found it interesting that six regulators were hanged, but that was after a trial, not immediately after the battle.

[gingerella]

This was another episode that felt meh to me. There were some aspects I appreciated, but some that were just silly or gratuitous or whatever.

First, I didn't realize that I'd missed Claire's voice over narration in opening scenes but apparently I did. There's something comforting about it and I wish they'd not gotten so far from that as of late.

Love any time Roger sings because he has a great voice, but that Clementine song was bugging the shit out of me by end of the episode! Also, a hard NO to Brianna and Roger also doing the forehead touch, nose kisses thing. That shit belongs to Jamie and Claire, period. End.Of.Story. Don't try to give me that as a cheap 'like mother, like daughter' BS. Just, NO.

When Isiah showed up and said 'troops mustering' it suddenly dawned on me, that's where 'muster/mustering up' comes from, as in "I'm gonna muster up some viddles for ye", or "I'm mustering up all the strength I have." I never made that connection before. Cool.

Why is the Trader dude from River Run even there? It seems outside his personal perview to be fighting, to be honest. Seems like he should be deep in the hinterlands, with the Native folks.

Gov. Tryon is such a putz. He's a smarmy, but more egotistical version of BPC all over again. BPC had the 'annointed by God' credo that he'd grown up with so I can forgive his entitlement from that perspective. But Tryon is an entitled prick just because, your typical power hungry British soldier looking for the next rung in HM's ladder. His wife was right, he insists people use his moniker for her to remind them of HIM and his standing, not hers.

Is it just me, or did Jamie's face look really weird in that tent scene? He didn't even look like himself, his face looked very strange to me. And while I can appreciate the morning wood reference, it felt like the showrunners thought, 'we had angry stable sex last episode so we'd better have more soft love sex this episode.' It was just awkward and they're going to go at it in a tent with men all around to hear them? Please.

I want to shop where Claire shops please!

Murtagh's vehemence shows exactly why Jocasta had to reject him once and for all. He hasn't learned anything since S01. If anything, he's gotten worse, always thinking his way is the only way. At least Jamie has learned diplomacy and has learned a little despite his continued stupid pet tricks (like whist for Claire's rings).  You'd have thought that Murtagh would have learned about diplomacy from his days with Jamie and BPC in Paris, but apparently not.

Why do men load pistols and then put them barrel side down into their breeks. Do they not worry about accidentally shooting their own junk off?

Seeing Jamie in a red coat was sickening, wasn't it? You could feel how gross he felt putting it on. And why on earth give him a coat unfinished and missing one epaulette?!

Seeing Dougal again was both good and bad. It was another harkening back to the best seasons of this show, but also showed that this Buck MacKenzie embodied the worst parts of Dougal. Some upthread brought up that this was Geillis and Dougal's son...was it? I didn't even think that, but if so, interesting. I guess the age is right for that. But sadly he's like a low rent Dougal, which isn't a surprise because House of Leoch was gone by the time their son was grown up, and you'd have thought that he would have taken on some characteristics from the couple who raised him.  But he just seemed to embody the worst parts of Dougal, unfortunately. And another thing, Roger recognized the his wife from the Gloriana or whatever ship he came over on. Did we see that scene last season? I don't remember him meeting her at all, but then I blank out on alot of this story once I view it if it's not compelling enough to make brain space for it!

Much of this episode harkened back to Preston Pans, Culloden, etc. Example, we see the red coats in the Colonies are just as barbaric as they were at Culloden and the years leading up to it. Nothing has really changed there, has it? Claire and Brianna are recreating the MASH unit that Claire worked under during her war, during Preston Pans and everything leading up to Culloden. So many parallels there, and Claire and Jamie's goodbye held the same angst as the scene where they say goodbye at the start of the battle at Preson Pans, Culloden and going back through the Stones, etc. I appreciate those call backs at times, and it gives the viewer the angsty feeling too.

Buh bye Murtagh, all you had to do was disappear West and be hard to find. You didn't need to die, but you were a stubborn old coot and that's what happens. I can't cry over it.

Roger, Jesus H. Christ. This poor guy must really love Brianna to not run back to the Stones and go home.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 2/20/2022 at 3:40 PM, gingerella said:

Some upthread brought up that this was Geillis and Dougal's son...was it? I didn't even think that, but if so, interesting.

Yes, that's correct. As Geillis explained in Jamaica, her execution was stayed because she was pregnant, and then Dougal smuggled her to safety. The baby was adopted and raised by MacKenzie cousins. Roger is descended from him, which is why he can go through the stones, like Geillis.

On 2/20/2022 at 3:40 PM, gingerella said:

And another thing, Roger recognized the his wife from the Gloriana or whatever ship he came over on. Did we see that scene last season? I don't remember him meeting her at all, but then I blank out on alot of this story once I view it if it's not compelling enough to make brain space for it!

Yes, it was a big deal for Roger actually. He took a big risk hiding her and her son from Bonnet during the outbreak of sickness on the ship, after Bonnet had tossed that other kid who was sick overboard, because her son was coughing but she insisted it wasn't smallpox in his case, which turned out to be right. Roger snuck them food in hiding. He had to play coin toss with Bonnet (aka Two-Face from Batman) to determine whether he'd live or die for his insubordination.

.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[SassAndSnacks]

On 2/20/2022 at 3:40 PM, gingerella said:

Also, a hard NO to Brianna and Roger also doing the forehead touch, nose kisses thing.

I fast-forward through their scenes.  I can't do it.  I like Roger a lot when he is with other people, but I can't do the two of them together.  Similarly, Bri's reaction at the end was underwhelming.  

On 2/20/2022 at 3:40 PM, gingerella said:

And why on earth give him a coat unfinished and missing one epaulette?!

Maybe that was the point?  The coat was unfinished and didn't quite fit in with the rest.  Similar to Jamie.  He didn't belong there and the coat, haphazard as it was, stuck out and was uncomfortable.  Claire's reaction to the coat was so well done.

On 2/20/2022 at 3:40 PM, gingerella said:

Claire and Jamie's goodbye held the same angst as the scene where they say goodbye at the start of the battle at Preson Pans, Culloden and going back through the Stones, etc. I appreciate those call backs at times, and it gives the viewer the angsty feeling too.

These are some of my favorite scenes.  The  - "'Good Luck' helps but I love you does so much more" - SWOON.  

[Cdh20]

5 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

 

Maybe that was the point?  The coat was unfinished and didn't quite fit in with the rest.  Similar to Jamie.  He didn't belong there and the coat, haphazard as it was, stuck out and was uncomfortable.  Claire's reaction to the coat was so well done.

These are some of my favorite scenes.  The  - "'Good Luck' helps but I love you does so much more" - SWOON.  

These are some of my favourite scenes as well!