S01.E10: Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2

[HotRats2112]

I have to admit that I didn't read through every post on this thread so I apologize if this is a repeat.  Was anyone else hoping Picard stayed dead?

 

[Kromm]

2 minutes ago, HotRats2112 said:

I have to admit that I didn't read through every post on this thread so I apologize if this is a repeat.  Was anyone else hoping Picard stayed dead?

 

Apparently they never even considered doing that. The behind the scenes stuff showed online says that the story only existed to create this end. Regardless if a renewal happened or not. Ugh. I mean I'm not even sure I'd have preferred one season and him dead, but frankly the hoops they had to jump through vs. just having Picard learn Data was in that memory thing through talking to Soong Jr. was already dumb. The murky "what is human" theme they felt they needed to explore could have been far better served with other plots. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

I don't think so, they wrapped filming back last summer and then S2 was announced later, shortly before the first episode premiered. I think they probably knew there was a good chance, but it wasn't confirmed.

Just found out they did know they already had a second season, according showrunner Michael Chabon in an interview on IGN:

Quote

“Although it wasn't announced until fairly far along in the process, for no doubt really sound reasons of marketing and publicity and everything, we've always known we had Patrick for at least two seasons,” says Chabon. “So there was always going to be a second season with Patrick playing Jean-Luc Picard. So no, that never... It was not like we were part way through and suddenly we were like, ‘Oh s#!t, we can't kill him because he's coming back.’ We knew we had him for two seasons from the start.”

I guess now I'm less impressed with the way they've managed to keep Picard alive. Their eyes were always on the second season.

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

Starting with, I kept waiting for Agnes to pick up the synth fix-it device to fix Picard on the bridge. But if she did, they couldn't have held all the heartfelt goodbyes on the planet.

And I, too, don't get all the sudden Data love.

That would be a bit like trying to fix a brain haemorrhage with a mechanic's wrench - completely inappropriate tool for the job. The synth's device was a field replicator with a neural interface (thanks for the explanation, Agnes) - not a surgical tool. And if it were possible to repair Picard's brain defect through surgery one of his doctors would have done so long before now.

The Data love isn't sudden. He was always a loved character. And he was always special to Picard - not in the best friend way he was special to Geordi, perhaps, but special nonetheless. Picard was his mentor and advocate for many, many years - literally went to court to defend his right to be considered a sentient living being, advised him and guided him along the rocky road toward his lifelong goal of becoming more human. Picard was never one for wearing his heart on his sleeve, but through my marathon TNG rewatch last year it was always crystal clear to me that he valued Data immensely, both for his own sake and as a unique new lifeform.  And while he has lost many crewmembers over the years, none of them ever gave their lives for Picard's so directly, that would make a tremendous impact even if it weren't someone he was so close to, someone so utterly unique. It doesn't surprise me at all that he would be haunted by that sacrifice.

1 hour ago, Kromm said:

Apparently they never even considered doing that. The behind the scenes stuff showed online says that the story only existed to create this end. Regardless if a renewal happened or not. Ugh. I mean I'm not even sure I'd have preferred one season and him dead, but frankly the hoops they had to jump through vs. just having Picard learn Data was in that memory thing through talking to Soong Jr. was already dumb. The murky "what is human" theme they felt they needed to explore could have been far better served with other plots. 

Just because it isn't to your personal taste doesn't mean it isn't a valid story to tell.

[MissLucas]

3 hours ago, HotRats2112 said:

I have to admit that I didn't read through every post on this thread so I apologize if this is a repeat.  Was anyone else hoping Picard stayed dead?

 

Yes, I was. I've found almost every other character (with the exception of Narissa) more compelling than this iteration of Picard. His greatest skill - speechifying others into moral submission - barely worked (and that mostly due to the writers room being willing to bend plotlines to Escher-levels of distortion) and I felt it was time for the character to go. I thought this was going to be his swan-song and that would have been perfect for me. 

[paigow]

22 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

Yes, I was. I've found almost every other character (with the exception of Narissa) more compelling than this iteration of Picard.

What happened to the Super Old Picard from the series finale? That was the future Q predicted and let Picard jump into...was that canon?

[Llywela]

29 minutes ago, paigow said:

What happened to the Super Old Picard from the series finale? That was the future Q predicted and let Picard jump into...was that canon?

It was one possible future which was prevented from happening by Picard's actions in that episode, therefore that particular future did not unfold, history was changed. Also, it was Q - there is no way of knowing if Picard actually was jumping around through time or if Q simply invented the whole thing just to mess with him. Either way, the future Picard saw in that episode was prevented from coming to pass because the events that created it were changed, so that the actual future that unfolded thereafter followed a different path.

Time travel shenanigans are messy.

Thinking about it, Voyager's finale also featured a possible future that was then prevented from ever happening by Janeway changing events in the past (or rather, changing events in the present). 

[Wouter]

19 hours ago, ahisma said:

When Soji was super-knowledgeable on the Cube, I assumed that her unconscious mind (the part her “mother” accessed) was hacking into the Romulus systems and squirreling away all the information so she’d have every tactical advantage if needed.

That's a good suggestion, though I suppose Romulan databases can't be hacked as easily as Federation ones. OTOH, Data, Dahj and Soji were all shown to be very adept at hacking so it's possible. Maybe Narek and co even let it happen, to find clues about Soji herself.

[norcalgal]

On 3/27/2020 at 12:08 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Sure, show.  You're totally going to kill off Jean-Luc Picard on a show that is called... Star Trek: Picard!

[snip]

But I figured that Dr. Soong's memory transfer thing was going to come into play, so I'm not surprised that Picard basically got his mind transferred to a new/old body, without the disease.  But they should have given some kind of upgrade!  Maybe not a full-fledge superpower, but maybe slightly improved skill?!

Yes, it was telegraphed from GO that Picard's consciousness was going to be transferred into the golem. Anybody who's ever watched a decent amount of sci-fi could see this coming from miles away.

As satisfying as it was watching Seven boot Narissa, I also worry that Narissa's personal transport will come into play, and she'll end up surviving and returning with a vengeance.  Granted, after Hugh, I'm pretty much in bloodlust mode, and I really wouldn't have been happy unless Seven shot her in the chest, snapped her neck, and then shot her one more time in the head for good measure, before she tossed her.  Maybe next time!

If Peyton List has to return to this show, yes a million times to this post! I first encountered the actress on the defunct tv series The Tomorrow People, and sad to say, her acting skills haven't improved. Instead, they regressed. Her Narissa was a piss poor villain. The actress looked like she was trying TOO hard to act all badass and eeeevil. And don't even get me started on her atrocious accent.

I did feel like they rushed a whole lot of things though.  Did Narek go back with the Romulans or is he in Starfleet's custody?  Whatever happen to Agnes turning herself in?  I also wish we actually got Rios/Raffi/Seven/Elnor's reaction once they heard that Soji and Agnes saved Picard.  I kind of feel like this episode either should have been longer or it should have been a three-parter instead.

Yep - lots of unanswered Qs, that I'm sure won't be addressed next season.

Riker's return was fun, but I was hoping for a Geordi or Worf cameo.  Maybe next season!

ITA!  It would have made a lot more sense for Worf to come to the rescue, as Riker seemed pretty content to play farmer.  

Data's officially dead now, but at least Dr. Soong is still around, so Brent Spiner can still get work!

I'm glad Brent Spiner no longer has to put on the horrid Data makeup. I hope that junk hasn't done major damage to his skin/eyes.

[snip]

 

 

On 3/26/2020 at 4:49 AM, Delphi said:

Oh,  I'm very glad Seven killed narissa and did it for poor Hugh. 

But,  um,  did she and Elnor just leave the drones and cube with the synth people?  That seems careless. 

The grieving scenes were all very well done,  even though clearly Picard wasn't going to stay dead,  they focused on those close to him while leaving Agnes and Soji out of it,  which makes sense for multiple reasons. 

See my post above on how show telegraphed so clearly that Picard wasn't really going to "die".

Finally full on confirmation that Seven of Nine,  the Borg Fenris Ranger from the Delta Quadrant is bisexual. 

Elnor is just the best thing that Trek has given me in years. 

Yep - he's still my fave new character. 

Eta: Riker presumably has more pull with Starfleet because he left on better terms than Picard. 

 

On 3/27/2020 at 1:54 AM, pootlus said:

I think they should have taken Narek with them - sure it wouldn't have made much sense plotwise, but with the crew all getting on pretty well they need a source of tension, and I liked his interactions with Elnor.

Yes, it would have been good to have Narek join La Sirena. He'd be one of those characters whom the others are never sure they can fully trust. Not to mention, his extra tension with Soji due to his betrayal. I think they could have done a good job to show that one or both still felt the emotional pull to the other, but given everything that's happened between them, has to fight this internal struggle, while fighting the other crew members' distrust too.

[snip]

 

On 3/27/2020 at 5:02 AM, Wouter said:

[snip]

Soji became the gang leader all of a sudden, the one who pushed for the extermination of organics, once Sutra was taken out. I had thought/hoped the finale would be Sutra manipulating the synths and Soji gradually starting to resist that, but learning that Sutra had killed Saga didn't even seem to phase her. Soji became fixated on becoming a mass murder on an immense scale so that the synths woudln't have to run, for me a jarring change from her pre-S9 attitude and personality. That she was accepted back in the crew so easily afterwards is a bit hard to swallow. 

Co-signed. It's unfortunate the show didn't have time to portray how the rest of the crew was able to accept Soji and could trust Agnes again as well. As it is, they both got (re)integrated seemingly out of nowhere.

As Misslucas said, Saga gave it to them. And the use as a repair tool with an exotic interface isn't that out of the norm for Star Trek, but what the tool pulled off during the battle with the Romulans must be unheard of for such a small device.

The question may be, where did the technology for this come from? It's a bit hard to swallow that Soong and/or Maddox not only were brilliant at building all kinds of intelligent androids, but also produced other tech seemingly far ahead of what the Federation can build itself?

Ah yes, ye olde Deus Ex Machina. That tool can now be their magic wand, getting them out of whatever jam they're in. Lazy, lazy writing/plot device.

[snip]

 

 

On 3/27/2020 at 5:29 AM, TV Anonymous said:

What kind of security does Starfleet Security have if its Head is actually an active Senior Officer of Romulan Empire? 

So Commodore Oh was 100% Romulan but posed as half Vulcan to get into Starfleet? Or are Romulans now part of Starfleet? I don't get the vetting process for such a high level position.

Edited March 30, 2020 by norcalgal

[norcalgal]

On 3/27/2020 at 9:43 PM, Cthulhudrew said:

Agreed. So he's been a consciousness for all these years, but never made any efforts to express that he'd like to talk to his old friends, or otherwise was involved with any of the other androids or the story. Kind of a shame, just to have one more morality play and sendoff for Data. I got the feeling the writers just hated Star Trek: Nemesis.

I'm honestly still a little unclear on why Soji and Dahj were sent away with false memories in the first place. I also wonder why the show didn't address how both of them look entirely human while the other androids still resemble Data more closely.

 

On 3/28/2020 at 4:59 AM, Llywela said:

Haven't had a chance to post before now. Decent finale, I thought - very emotional in places - and a decent first season, taken as a whole. Not perfect, but nothing is, and most of the show's weaknesses I felt stemmed in the main from the inexperience of the showrunner. Michael Chabon is primarily a novelist rather than a screenwriter and it showed, although his love of all things Trek shone through throughout.

I like all the new characters, although their development over the season has been patchy and the progression of their interrelationships patchier still (the season could have done with a couple more episodes, in the end, to let the characters and story breathe a bit more) so my biggest wish for season two is some good old-fashioned team-building, truly digging into the character dynamics and allowing them to develop organically.

ITA, esp. the bolded above.

[snip]

Narek is a definite loose thread left dangling - in his Instagram Q&A Michael Chabon said they had intended to show him being taken into Federation custody, but with the way the story worked out there wasn't a good place to fit that in. Judging by previous answers, Narek and Narissa got the shaft all season, in fact - Chabon said theirs was the often first material to be cut in the editorial process, and both characters suffered for it.

According to Chabon, a couple of scenes showing the xBs and synths forming a new community together were scripted/filmed, but were cut. The story would have been stronger if they were left in, imo. And yes, also according to Chabon, there was a short time skip between Picard's resurrection and La Sirena shipping out - I think that could have been made a little clearer, too.

Because this is a streaming series, why did they feel compelled to work each episode into the 1 hour format? I felt the show could have really used the bits mentioned above to flesh out the characters/plot/pacing.

[snip]

 

On 3/28/2020 at 7:19 AM, starri said:

I think we should lay the blame for that one on the movies.  If you watched TNG, Picard was a mentor to Data, but if he had a best friend, it was Beverly.  But if you only saw the four films, you'd think Data was his bestie.

Ah yes, one of the biggest problems with First Contact was how Beverly was shoved aside as Picard's sounding board for some brand new person we never saw or heard of before. I don't have a problem with the character of Lily(?) but it was Beverly who should have admonished Picard re: his Borg obsession. Having said that, First Contact is still my favorite film with the TNG cast members. [Yay - Lt. Howlin' Mad Barclay!!!]

In any event, TNG seems to play fast and loose with who is Picard's BFF as the need arises. 

On 3/28/2020 at 9:44 AM, paigow said:

You mean the Golem should look like Shinzon??? Exxxxcelllennnttt!

 

11 hours ago, marinw said:

Or James McAvoy, 

A mash-up of Trek & X-Men?!?!?!  LOLOLOL - I'm in...

[Hiyo]

Quote

A mash-up of Trek & X-Men?!?!?!

Patrick Stewart does that on his own.

[mledawn]

I just finished the series, and this episode made me cry like a baby. Riker! Picard almost dead! Gah, I really enjoyed it.

I went into this series being unspoiled completely EXCEPT for learning there had been a Season 2 renewal. 

I was wondering if they were going to do a Doctor Who-type thing where it was Picard in a different body, and I'm glad they didn't do that at all. I'm very glad he has an end date.

[Kromm]

23 hours ago, Llywela said:

That would be a bit like trying to fix a brain haemorrhage with a mechanic's wrench - completely inappropriate tool for the job. The synth's device was a field replicator with a neural interface (thanks for the explanation, Agnes) - not a surgical tool. And if it were possible to repair Picard's brain defect through surgery one of his doctors would have done so long before now.

The Data love isn't sudden. He was always a loved character. And he was always special to Picard - not in the best friend way he was special to Geordi, perhaps, but special nonetheless. Picard was his mentor and advocate for many, many years - literally went to court to defend his right to be considered a sentient living being, advised him and guided him along the rocky road toward his lifelong goal of becoming more human. Picard was never one for wearing his heart on his sleeve, but through my marathon TNG rewatch last year it was always crystal clear to me that he valued Data immensely, both for his own sake and as a unique new lifeform.  And while he has lost many crewmembers over the years, none of them ever gave their lives for Picard's so directly, that would make a tremendous impact even if it weren't someone he was so close to, someone so utterly unique. It doesn't surprise me at all that he would be haunted by that sacrifice.

Just because it isn't to your personal taste doesn't mean it isn't a valid story to tell.

I didn't say it wasn't a valid kind of story to tell. Just that in my opinion that it was badly executed. The theme of "what is human" is one the franchise has done over and over. I thought this jumped through huge awkward hoops to address a theme they've already done pretty well. 

 

[dewelar]

5 hours ago, Kromm said:

The theme of "what is human" is one the franchise has done over and over.

Indeed, it was the theme of the seventh episode of TOS for goodness sake.

[paigow]

3 hours ago, dewelar said:

Indeed, it was the theme of the seventh episode of TOS for goodness sake.

Even the second TOS pilot...Gary Mitchell, human frailty.....

[dewelar]

Quote

Quote

Indeed, it was the theme of the seventh episode of TOS for goodness sake.

Even the second TOS pilot...Gary Mitchell, human frailty.....

Also true, though less specifically applicable -- for that matter, the entirety of TOS was essentially about exploring the human condition. "What Are Little Girls Made Of?", of course, was more directly about a number of topics covered in ST:P, and came to quite different conclusions.

Edited April 1, 2020 by dewelar

[MissLucas]

On 3/31/2020 at 1:03 AM, norcalgal said:

So Commodore Oh was 100% Romulan but posed as half Vulcan to get into Starfleet? Or are Romulans now part of Starfleet? I don't get the vetting process for such a high level position.

I think Oh is half Vulcan - because she was able to perform the mind-meld. Raffi also came to that conclusion after Agnes came clear.  Of course that also rises a whole lot of questions about Starfleets vetting process. Not to mention that Narissa also manged to pose as human.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Did the show (or the comics) ever explain

1. what exactly Dahj and Soji were looking for, and why it was on Earth/the Artifact? 

2. why they were sent out as sleeper agents as opposed to with their full set of knowledge and skills as androids (which would seemingly put them in a far better position to accomplish the mission) 

3. why they didn't send third-party agents to search for whatever it was they were looking for?

4. how the Romulans came to know about and track down Dahj and Soji?

5. why the murder of Dahj did not trigger anyone with the synths to say "Hmm, maybe we should give Soji a warning or activate her or recall her"?

6. how the Romulans came to be in possession of the Artifact, and how long they had it?

Did I jump to the wrong conclusion or were the warbirds somehow upgraded with Borg tech? At least visually they seemed to look differently from warbirds we had seen in the past. 

[Llywela]

2 hours ago, MissLucas said:

I think Oh is half Vulcan - because she was able to perform the mind-meld. Raffi also came to that conclusion after Agnes came clear.  Of course that also rises a whole lot of questions about Starfleets vetting process. Not to mention that Narissa also manged to pose as human.

Narissa had Oh to clear the way for her.

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Did the show (or the comics) ever explain

1. what exactly Dahj and Soji were looking for, and why it was on Earth/the Artifact? 

2. why they were sent out as sleeper agents as opposed to with their full set of knowledge and skills as androids (which would seemingly put them in a far better position to accomplish the mission) 

3. why they didn't send third-party agents to search for whatever it was they were looking for?

4. how the Romulans came to know about and track down Dahj and Soji?

5. why the murder of Dahj did not trigger anyone with the synths to say "Hmm, maybe we should give Soji a warning or activate her or recall her"?

6. how the Romulans came to be in possession of the Artifact, and how long they had it?

Did I jump to the wrong conclusion or were the warbirds somehow upgraded with Borg tech? At least visually they seemed to look differently from warbirds we had seen in the past. 

All of these questions were answered within the show.

1. Maddox told us that he sent out the twins to find the truth behind the synth ban - he sent Dahj to Earth to investigate possible Federation involvement and he sent Soji to the Artifact to investigate possible Romulan involvement. Like Raffi, he believed there was a conspiracy that involved both.

2. Sending them in as sleeper agents he probably saw as a failsafe, both for their personal protection and to protect the larger synth community on Coppelius, on the principle that they couldn't betray a secret they didn't know and that they would be more likely to blend in if they believed themselves to be normal girls. It may or may not have been the best possible plan, but Maddox wasn't omniscient, he just did the best he could based on what he knew and feared. Agnes described him as paranoid and 'secret planny'.

3. Employing a third party agent carried too great a risk of exposing the synth community, which had to be protected at all costs.

4. Dahj and Soji had been on their mission for three years when the season began and the Romulans had only just located them. Safe to say that the Zhat Vash would have been suspicious of Maddox from the moment he disappeared - they believed he would continue his work in secret and they were right. So from the moment he disappeared, they started looking for him. Narissa told us that hundreds of agents had been involved in the search across I forget how many star systems - an immense intelligence operation dedicated to locating Bruce Maddox and any synthetic beings he might be working on. That intelligence paid off when they found his base on Freecloud (he told us his lab had been destroyed, using the same acid employed by the Tal Shiar agents sent after Dahj) and when they located Dahj and Soji. And having seen the company Maddox was keeping in his desperation, it isn't hard to guess how the intelligence leaked out.

5. Neither Maddox nor Dahj and Soji were in contact with Coppelius to give any warning - I imagine Maddox thought maintaining any form of contact would be too much of a risk. 

6. The Romulans had possession of the Artifact because it was in their space when it became disconnected from the Collective. They'd had it for 14 years. It underwent sub-matrix collapse after the assimilation of the Shaenor, a Romulan ship. This happened because a Zhat Vash agent named Ramdha was assimilated, and her mind had previously been fractured by the Admonition - her memories of the Admonition caused the sub-matrix collapse of the Cube, which was promptly spat out by the Collective to prevent the damage from spreading. There is precedent for this going way back to TNG when Hugh's Cube was similarly disconnected to prevent his memories of individuality from spreading through the Collective.

The Romulan warbirds no doubt have been upgraded since we last saw them, given that it has been a good couple of decades now. Technology tends not to stand still.

Edited April 1, 2020 by Llywela

[HotRats2112]

On 3/30/2020 at 2:46 PM, MissLucas said:

I thought this was going to be his swan-song and that would have been perfect for me. 

This.  Exactly this.  Same as that movie he made a few years ago.  It's tough to see a character reduced from their powerful selves.  But going out with style to help a young woman get to a new home would have worked great for Xavier.   I mean PICARD! 

[kokapetl]

On 3/31/2020 at 7:42 AM, norcalgal said:

 

 

Ah yes, one of the biggest problems with First Contact was how Beverly was shoved aside as Picard's sounding board for some brand new person we never saw or heard of before. I don't have a problem with the character of Lily(?) but it was Beverly who should have admonished Picard re: his Borg obsession. Having said that, First Contact is still my favorite film with the TNG cast members. [Yay - Lt. Howlin' Mad Barclay!!!]

In any event, TNG seems to play fast and loose with who is Picard's BFF as the need arises. 

 

A mash-up of Trek & X-Men?!?!?!  LOLOLOL - I'm in...

Justice 4 Beverly!

[Kromm]

On 4/1/2020 at 6:53 AM, MissLucas said:

I think Oh is half Vulcan - because she was able to perform the mind-meld. Raffi also came to that conclusion after Agnes came clear.  Of course that also rises a whole lot of questions about Starfleets vetting process. Not to mention that Narissa also manged to pose as human.

Has it ever been stated if Romulans, as genetically similar to Vulcans, lack this ability? Or is it just that only the Vulcans have the proper mystic traditions and training? 

[Llywela]

15 hours ago, Kromm said:

Has it ever been stated if Romulans, as genetically similar to Vulcans, lack this ability? Or is it just that only the Vulcans have the proper mystic traditions and training? 

Hmm. I'm not sure if it was ever stated, but certainly Romulans have never been shown to be able to mind-meld, as far as I know. Someone with more encyclopedic knowledge of Trek than me might be able to say more.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Llywela

[MissLucas]

I checked with Memory Alpha and I guess Romulan telepathic abilities or the lack thereof are a topic as convoluted and contradictory as Klingon looks.

[teddysmom]

The best part was when Riker showed up and told the Evil Romulan woman he would kick her ass six ways to Sunday if she didn't back down. 

I hope the next season figures out how to make the show as relevant and exciting as Next Generation, because this was an utter snore fest. 

[Mom x 3]

I really enjoyed the season, despite the inconsistencies and loose ends.  The biggest thing that confuses me is why did Maddox leave Coppelius?  He had a lab there, as well as assistants.  Why go to FreeCloud and build a new lab to continue his work?  I know it allowed Scooby and the gang to go there, and we wouldn't have had Seven's introduction or Raffi's family drama, but was that ever explained and I missed it?

[Sandman]

On 3/26/2020 at 6:04 PM, kokapetl said:

I hope I never see incesty Romulan sister agent ever again.

I found this a mostly satisfying conclusion, except that I was cheated out of a lingering and excruciating evisceration for Sister Sunshine. Alas, I'm convinced she will have survived her dramatic plunge, despite her high-pitched caterwauling. Why wasn't Commodore Not-So Vulcan Traitorpants taken in for questioning (and imprisonment/execution), since her treachery compromised Star Fleet Security and exposed the Federation to enemy aggression? Romulans have already essentially perpetrated an act of war. And someone in Star Fleet Command should be responsible for allowing her infiltration.

Also: It would have been the decent thing for Agnes and her Cybernetics Nerd Club to share the whole "Picard's Not Quite Dead Yet" plan with the rest of the class, thereby sparing them superfluous grief. (Completely unrelatedly, did the decision on a second season arrive late in the writing process?) 

I did like that Saga and Arcana both had names (like Data and Lore) that were cognates of forms of information; in this case, mapping to "history" and "secrets." I can't tell if the pattern holds for Dahj and Soji, or any of the other synths.  

Is there someone somewhere who doesn't have chemistry with either Jeri Ryan or Santiago Cabrera? There's your undiscovered life forms!

[Llywela]

6 hours ago, Mom x 3 said:

I really enjoyed the season, despite the inconsistencies and loose ends.  The biggest thing that confuses me is why did Maddox leave Coppelius?  He had a lab there, as well as assistants.  Why go to FreeCloud and build a new lab to continue his work?  I know it allowed Scooby and the gang to go there, and we wouldn't have had Seven's introduction or Raffi's family drama, but was that ever explained and I missed it?

I assume it had something to do with wanting to protect the location of the synth colony - he needed to base himself elsewhere while investigating the true cause of the synth ban because he couldn't risk leading danger to his 'children'.

2 hours ago, Sandman said:

Also: It would have been the decent thing for Agnes and her Cybernetics Nerd Club to share the whole "Picard's Not Quite Dead Yet" plan with the rest of the class, thereby sparing them superfluous grief. (Completely unrelatedly, did the decision on a second season arrive late in the writing process?)

They knew about the second season by last summer, I believe, so before the finale was filmed. And to be fair to Agnes, there was clearly a bit of time between Picard's death and resurrection - we don't know at what point the plan was conceived or who was brought in on it. She wouldn't have known for sure, at first, that it would even work - and she'd need Soong's agreement to use his golem, which wasn't a given. So there was time while she was trying to figure the details out for the others to be grieving. She may well have told them as soon as she thought it might work - or she might have waited until she knew it had worked. Either way, I can't really fault her for not wanting to get anyone's hopes up until she was more sure it could be done.

[Sandman]

4 hours ago, Llywela said:

She may well have told them as soon as she thought it might work - or she might have waited until she knew it had worked. Either way, I can't really fault her for not wanting to get anyone's hopes up until she was more sure it could be done.

Fair point. I may have been assuming it was more of a fait accompli than it actually was.

[Speakeasy]

Starfleet has a long, long history of hanging defenceless planets out to dry after saying the magic words 'prime directive' so it was jolly nice of them to send that massive fleet of state of the art ships, crewed by tens of thousands of Starfleet personnel, to bail out a planet that they'd never staked any claim on, risking not only that fleet but all out war with the Romulans, all to protect a tiny village of people whose legal status as people is probably still a bit of a grey area in the Federation and who were actively trying to murder them all at the time.

It is in fact so nice as to seem a little out of character, if you ask me.

[paigow]

Why was Cmdr. Shelby not assigned to the Artifact? Or sent to Coppelius, now that the Borg are living there.

[Llywela]

2 hours ago, paigow said:

Why was Cmdr. Shelby not assigned to the Artifact? Or sent to Coppelius, now that the Borg are living there.

1. The Artifact was a Romulan-owned project with no Starfleet presence.

2. We don't know what will happen on Coppelius now that the Federation knows it exists, because that's where the season ended.

3. 30 years is a long time, Shelby might have retired - she might even be dead.

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Llywela said:

1. The Artifact was a Romulan-owned project with no Starfleet presence.

2. We don't know what will happen on Coppelius now that the Federation knows it exists, because that's where the season ended.

3. 30 years is a long time, Shelby might have retired - she might even be dead.

The cube was filled with Federation observers..nobody in Starfleet works undercover,,,

She is younger than Riker. If she is still alive, Riker should have diverted one of the 200 ships to pick her up.

[Llywela]

8 hours ago, paigow said:

The cube was filled with Federation observers..nobody in Starfleet works undercover,,,

She is younger than Riker. If she is still alive, Riker should have diverted one of the 200 ships to pick her up.

Seems a minor detail to fix on. 30 years, Shelby probably has other priorities by now - her whole career would have moved forward. She wasn't part of this story because she didn't need to be.

[starri]

19 hours ago, paigow said:

Why was Cmdr. Shelby not assigned to the Artifact? Or sent to Coppelius, now that the Borg are living there.

Oddly, I kind of wondered what it would have been like if she'd had Admiral Clancy's role in the story.

[stealinghome]

Quote

There was a lot to like about this show, and a lot that I think could be improved on, but I am really glad I watched and I am really excited to see what season two might be like!...and, while I know this show shouldn't be a big cameo fest, I would like to check in with some more characters. Looking forward to season two! Engage!

This is where I am with Picard, for sure. I've made my way through the first season over the last few weeks of social distancing, and while it's far from perfect, I've really enjoyed it and am definitely in for Season 2!

For me, the core of the show is Picard/Raffi/Rios(/Seven if she joins the cast full time next season, which I dearly hope she does). The actors just work well together and have seamless chemistry, and the characters bounce off each other in some really great ways. I like Elnor as well--he works as a counterpoint to the others--and actually enjoyed Narek with Raffi/Rios/Elnor in the last episode and wouldn't mind the show keeping him around as an ambiguous foe-turned-frenemy (especially if they keep him away from Soji, as their scenes are snoozeworthy, and don't resurrect his creepy incestuous Lannister vibes sister). Where the show loses me is with Agnes and Soji, and not just because everyone else seems bizarrely willing to overlook Agnes' murder of Maddox--even if heavily influenced by Oh--and Soji's willingness to unleash genocide on a freaking galactic scale (no mitigating circumstances for her!). Agnes just doesn't quite work in the the "quirky scientist who is very different from the career Starfleet officers" role--Elnor inhabits the role of outsider much better, and while I think the actress plays decently well off Patrick Stewart she doesn't have the same chemistry with the rest of the cast--and 9 episodes in Soji still feels like more of a plot device than anything else and has chemistry with exactly none of the other characters. I thought the actress played well off of PS in the pilot, so I don't think the flaw is with the actress, I just don't think there is much substance to the character. So as I'm assuming the show isn't going to ditch either of them, I think the biggest need in S2 is making both work better in the larger ensemble. If they can do that, I don't really care what plot convolutions the show puts us through or when the writing is thin, I'll just enjoy spending time with the characters and their camaraderie. ESPECIALLY if the show commits to Raffi/Seven and makes them the main romantic couple of the show!

[blueray]

That was not what I expected but not bad. I'm just going to post random thoughts but the show did get a bit better as it went on. There were a lot of loose ends such as what happened to the ex-borg drones and Navak but that can be answered in season 2.

I was surprised by the ending with Picard. But my guess is he won't tell anyone who doesn't already know. As for Starfleet (and Riker) they left before Picard died. As for him not being okay with it, that seemed a bit of a stretch. But maybe they can follow up on this in season 2 as well.

Soji becoming the leader, made no sense. Wouldn't another one be making the tower. Unless it's like there types are assigned to specific jobs so hers is engineering and the other's have other proposes. This wasn't really explained.

Best episode by far was the one where they were just hanging out with Riker and Troi. And the worse was I think the second episode which was pretty boring and when they killed both Icheb and Hugh.

Edited May 1, 2020 by blueray

[AncientNewbie]

I wouldn't have been surprised if Picard stayed dead and La Sirena was renamed Picard with this crew that owed him still aboard, as I watched this season unfold.

But one reason I always love Trek is that it takes some somewhat dry science-y SF and then when they cake on the emotion, it resonates even harder (with me, tastes obviously vary) because the rest of the universe is dry. So Picard planning a sacrifice and Will coming out of nowhere...that's the cheese that makes the sandwich for me.

 

 

[Affogato]

The end did address some of the issues with the androids. They may want to die, like Data, and not become immortal gods. Whew. Also the technology can improve the lives of people without making them superbeings or immortal, like when it is used to cure Picard. I suppose it could have fixed Thaddeus, too.

they should have repaired Picard’s knees and given him another 20 years. Maybe they can tweak the parameters a little  At his next tuneup.

i didn’t feel either of the romantic pairings hinted at the end. I don’t mind, but I didn’t feel there was any buildup. 

[Sandman]

By the way, about the name "Coppelius": I've been meaning to say for a while how cute it was that the showrunners thought they were being subtle with this.

[Llywela]

22 hours ago, Sandman said:

By the way, about the name "Coppelius": I've been meaning to say for a while how cute it was that the showrunners thought they were being subtle with this.

I don't think they thought they were being particularly subtle, they simply chose a name for the planet that would be meaningful. I mean, the name didn't even come up until the notion of a colony of manufactured beings there was already well and truly established - if we'd been told the planet's name first and only then discovered who and what Soji was, you might have a point about foreshadowing.

In-universe, the planet was named by its occupants, who chose the name very specifically to represent their synthetic community - the wider universe knew it by a different name entirely. And in real world terms...you might be surprised how little the name 'Coppelius' suggests to most viewers. Not everyone is intimately familiar with the world of ballet.

[Sandman]

7 hours ago, Llywela said:

And in real world terms...you might be surprised how little the name 'Coppelius' suggests to most viewers. Not everyone is intimately familiar with the world of ballet.

I don't consider myself particularly attuned to the world of ballet (other musical and art forms are more my thing); I figured if I picked up on it, most viewers would also catch it. Maybe I'm wrong about that. But it didn't seem natural as a name a colony of artificial life forms would choose for themselves since (one could argue) they're not aspiring to become real beings (as I understand the story of Coppélia) but rather asserting their own agency and legitimacy as sentient beings, independent of the means of their creation. In-story reasons seemed weaker to me than the symbolic weight of the term.

[Llywela]

12 hours ago, Sandman said:

I don't consider myself particularly attuned to the world of ballet (other musical and art forms are more my thing); I figured if I picked up on it, most viewers would also catch it. Maybe I'm wrong about that. But it didn't seem natural as a name a colony of artificial life forms would choose for themselves since (one could argue) they're not aspiring to become real beings (as I understand the story of Coppélia) but rather asserting their own agency and legitimacy as sentient beings, independent of the means of their creation. In-story reasons seemed weaker to me than the symbolic weight of the term.

My assumption would be that Maddox and Soong chose the name because it represented something of what they were doing - creating synthetic offspring to which they have dedicated their entire lives. In real world terms, like I said, it wasn't chosen as foreshadowing but as a name that would make some kind of sense in context. Either way, I don't imagine for a moment that any kind direct like-for-like parallel was intended, so it would be a mistake to look to the ballet for any deeper understanding of the show. It was just chosen as a nice-sounding name with a note of resonance in context.

[txhorns79]

On 3/27/2020 at 9:01 AM, marinw said:

Seven/Raffi came out of nowhere but I'm here for them if the show gets a second season.

I'll admit that I laughed at the idea of the CBS exec being on the fence regarding renewal of the show until it suddenly promised him hot lesbian action, and then he couldn't renew it fast enough. 

Quote

I'm honestly still a little unclear on why Soji and Dahj were sent away with false memories in the first place. I also wonder why the show didn't address how both of them look entirely human while the other androids still resemble Data more closely.

I was a little confused about that as well.  Was the woman Soji thought was her mother actually real, or was she just some algorithm designed to put Soji to sleep so her memories could be accessed? 

[Llywela]

8 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I was a little confused about that as well.  Was the woman Soji thought was her mother actually real, or was she just some algorithm designed to put Soji to sleep so her memories could be accessed? 

The mother wasn't real, no - there were a bunch of clues to that around the way the video feed skipped whenever the programme was thrown by something unexpected and had to re-adjust. It was just a prop to reinforce Dahj and Soji's belief that they were human with entire lives behind them. And served a dual purpose since the mother programme triggered an embedded response to go to sleep, so that their internal programming could shuffle through and tidy up the memories of the day.

Dahj and Soji were made to look completely human because they needed to blend in. The others, back on Coppelius, were made more in Data's image in homage to his memory, and because they didn't need to pass as human.

[starri]

On 7/13/2020 at 9:13 PM, txhorns79 said:

I'll admit that I laughed at the idea of the CBS exec being on the fence regarding renewal of the show until it suddenly promised him hot lesbian action, and then he couldn't renew it fast enough. 

 

It was apparently something that Jeri Ryan and Michelle Hurd were advocating for.  When they were at ComicCon promoting the show, someone snapped a few picture of the two of them together, and the two realized that they would make a gorgeous couple (correct).  

[7kstar]

On 3/27/2020 at 2:44 PM, Gillian Rosh said:

I'm intrigued by the Raffi/Seven connection, but I do think Rios has way more chemistry with both of them than he does with Agnes. I do not get the Rios/Agnes pairing at all.

IA but I thought that Seven fit more.  I saw Agnes as someone that he just wanted to help, not that he saw her as some great love interest.  I missed seeing anything for Raffi and Seven.  That came out of left field for me.  I'm starting a rewatch and maybe it will show up on 2nd viewing but nothing made me think oh yea, that would be a wonderful couple.

[Speakeasy]

Raffi and 7 are a masterclass in maximum viewer reaction for minimum writer/director/actor effort. 

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, 7kstar said:

IA but I thought that Seven fit more.  I saw Agnes as someone that he just wanted to help, not that he saw her as some great love interest.  I missed seeing anything for Raffi and Seven.  That came out of left field for me.  I'm starting a rewatch and maybe it will show up on 2nd viewing but nothing made me think oh yea, that would be a wonderful couple.

Pretty sure they'd only interacted once before, while setting up the caper in ep 5, when Raffi helped Seven get ready and told her she admired what she does. I don't think the showrunner planned a connection between them. It was an acting choice at the end there that he liked and chose to keep for the final cut.

10 minutes ago, Speakeasy said:

Raffi and 7 are a masterclass in maximum viewer reaction for minimum writer/director/actor effort. 

There certainly has been a lot of talk about a single, fleeting scene that rounded off the season! It was a choice made by the actors to show their characters bonding after a shared experience, rather than part of the showrunner's plan, so I'm interested to see where it goes next season - if anywhere. I think it makes a potentially strong character beat going forward, for both characters, but a lot depends on what new story is planned and whether Seven stays on La Sirena or heads off to do her own thing again.

[Hawk]

I love the crew they ended up with after episode 10.

Can't wait for season two.