S01.E08: Broken Pieces

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

When devastating truths behind the Mars attack are revealed, Picard realizes just how far many will go to preserve secrets stretching back generations, all while the La Sirena crew grapples with secrets and revelations of their own. Narissa directs her guards to capture Elnor, setting off an unexpected chain of events on the Borg cube.

Promo:

Clip:

Original air date: 3/12/20

[marieYOTZ]

I’m a bit confused about who the third synth girl was, the one Rios met before - I thought they were built in pairs, were these ones triplets? 
 

I enjoyed seeing Picard give a good Picardian speech about how we are armed with curiosity and hope and sugar and spice and everything nice, and all they have is trickery and deceipt. 
 

Unfortunately, I am struggling to believe in a vision of synth-takeover so terrible that it makes you claw your face off, or beat your head in with a rock. They’re going to have to expand on that a little bit more.  I’ll admit, at first I was like “Hmm, I think this past synth-takeover was shown on one of the Treks...” Then after a minute I realized I was thinking of the Orville, and the thwarted takeover by Isaac’s species, whoops! 😂

Edited March 12, 2020 by marieYOTZ

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I enjoyed the scene with the five holograms of Rios. It was a nice moment of levity and a welcome break from all the drama.

[Delphi]

Bro,  I literally gasped when they dumped all the drones.   That's so horrible.   Seven was awesome,  Elnor was adorable.   Agnes... is alive. 

[kokapetl]

I didn’t like the Borg death scene. My understanding of the Borg who got sucked (or blown) out of the ship was that they were not Ex-Borg, just disconnected, and the Borg can survive in the vacuum of space, there was a whole scene in First Contact that took place outside the Enterprise.

Picard was acting more like TNG Picard in this episode, I liked that. And almost everyone else suddenly grew a brain and could put two and two together, I really liked that. The serialised narrative format of this series prevented that from happening earlier, and that has been my main gripe with the show. 
 

[greekmom]

1 hour ago, kokapetl said:

I didn’t like the Borg death scene. My understanding of the Borg who got sucked (or blown) out of the ship was that they were not Ex-Borg, just disconnected, and the Borg can survive in the vacuum of space, there was a whole scene in First Contact that took place outside the Enterprise.

Exactly.

I was just coming to mention this.  Next, the Zhat Vash have been around longer than the ceremony that was shown indoctrinate the new sisters in the clan.  Therefore, if the threat from synths has been around thousands of years, why had none of them gone after Data when he was serving on the Enterprise?

I would have been super upset if Seven remained a Queen. Hopefully we see her in the next two episodes?

 

[Stardancer Supreme]

I paused the episode to say that I am about sick of Admiral Clancy cussing at JL.  Surely she should have better manners than that!

[paigow]

How did those XB NOT get jettisoned?

[paigow]

9 hours ago, Delphi said:

Bro,  I literally gasped when they dumped all the drones.   That's so horrible.

Janeway fired a Borg boarding party into space not unlike Narissa 

[Delphi]

Yeah a boarding party.   I've actually been rewatching.   These were a bunch of drones only slowly waking up from stasis.  And on their cube. 

[paigow]

13 hours ago, marieYOTZ said:

I’m a bit confused about who the third synth girl was, the one Rios met before - I thought they were built in pairs, were these ones triplets? 

The dude with Janna was her "twin" brother...

[ottoDbusdriver]

So who was in that ship trailing the La Sirena through the trans-warp conduit ?

By the way, the visual of the trans-warp conduit was awesome.

I bet 7 of 9 fires up the Borg Cube and heads out with Elnor to assist Picard.

If I get this right, when Synths reach a certain level it attracts a big bad that is hundreds of thousands years old that will wipe out everything.  And the last civilization that developed that level of synth technology also had the power to move stars and planets -- and used it to build a warning.   Yowzer, that's way above the capabilities of the Federation or Romulans.

[Ottis]

Add “oblivious” to this version of Picard. He didn’t notice Rios’ reaction to Soji? Thank goodness Raffy stumbled onto it.

Seven continues to be the only character dealing with some weighty and intriguing choices.

Still not buying the Romulan mindmeld persuasion. But I do very much like the fleshing out of the Romulan dislike of synths, even if it, like the warrior women, is stolen from the Dune books.  It gives the bad guys complexity.

[paigow]

8 hours ago, greekmom said:

Therefore, if the threat from synths has been around thousands of years, why had none of them gone after Data when he was serving on the Enterprise?

I would have been super upset if Seven remained a Queen. Hopefully we see her in the next two episodes?

 

The initial Maddox effort to dismantle Data will be retconned into a Commodore Oh plot.

Since the Starfleet attack squad [if Clancy actually sent it] is nowhere near Picard, only the cube can get there before the Romulans. And it is the only ship big enough to evacuate all the synths.

[SourK]

I didn't dislike this, but I felt like it was cramming a lot of interesting ideas into a single episode without stopping to explore any of them fully. Like Seven's extremely weighty choice to make a new borg collective and her worry that she wouldn't want to let them disconnect after. Or Agnes deciding she doesn't want to destroy the synths anymore because Soji's such a miracle.

I did enjoy that Raffi being a weird, outcast conspiracy nut was finally useful for everyone, because she put together the whole improbable story of how the Romulans were behind everything, but I wish that even that had had more room to breathe.

13 hours ago, marieYOTZ said:

Unfortunately, I am struggling to believe in a vision of synth-takeover so terrible that it makes you claw your face off, or beat your head in with a rock. They’re going to have to expand on that a little bit more. 

I have the opposite reaction. I kind of like that they're not explaining it in detail, because it lets my imagination fill in something super scary -- probably worse than whatever they'd actually depict. When they were talking cryptically about how "someone really bad shows up" if you allow AI to evolve too much, I got a little creeped out.

I also just kind of like the idea of being able to take it as written that whatever this sacred, terrifying memory is, it's really as bad as it sounds, and it makes sense that the villains are freaked out about it (even if I'm pretty sure their vision has the same stock footage of a fox decomposing as 20 other shows). I think, if they tell us super specifically what it is, it opens the door for us to decide everyone's being weird and it's not that bad.

[starri]

I love how Michelle Hurd plays Raffi in a way that you can't quite decide if she's faking all her maternal concern for everyone.  Although sober and completely in command of herself, I can see why Picard picked her to help him lead the rescue fleet.  She's brilliant.

Of course the Emergency Engineering Hologram is Scottish.

I understand why people have mixed feelings about Agnes, but I thought Alison Pill killed it in her scenes with both Stewart and Isa Briones.  

I do have to admit, after they said that Oh had forced Agnes to swallow viridium, I couldn't stop myself from saying "Why, that cunning little Vulcan."

[jcin617]

For those familiar with the Mass Effect series, the "vision" we keep seeing of the "hell" caused by anti-synth big bad reminds me of the vision caused by beacons left behind by the Protheans as a warning against the Reapers, who also came around to stop civilizations from becoming too advanced to develop synthetic life.

Edited March 13, 2020 by jcin617

[starri]

1 minute ago, jcin617 said:

For those familiar with the Mass Effect series, the "vision" we keep seeing of the "hell" caused by anti-synth big bad reminds me of the vision caused by beacons left behind by the Protheans as a warning against the Reapers, who also came around to stop civilizations from becoming too advanced to develop synthetic life.

Agreed, and there was some line that Agnes had that made my husband and I start quoting lines from Battlestar Galactica.  Something about synthetic life evolving.

[marinw]

How could Seven assimilate and de-assimilate at will?

Weird episode, not sure what to make of it. I did love the scene were Soji tells Picard that Data did love him.

Edited March 13, 2020 by marinw

[Florinaldo]

Elnor certainly threw himself rather fiercely at Seven for that big giant hug. After all, he is supposed to still be a very young man, alone and scared. From Seven's reaction, can we infer she was being reminded of Icheb?

So there was an explanation both for Oh's mind-meld abilities and her being part of the conspiracy. She is half-Vulcan, half Romulan. It still does not explain how she was never detected by Starfleet Medical (massive bribes?).

And of course their annoying Tal Shiar tracker shows up at the end; how did he know where to precisely wait for them?

 

[MissLucas]

49 minutes ago, Florinaldo said:

And of course their annoying Tal Shiar tracker shows up at the end; how did he know where to precisely wait for them?

Twu luv? 😁

I guess that was the last we've seen of Narissa or was she able to beam out?

Allison Pill really made me feel for Agnes.

So either the synths themselves are the big destroyers - which would be the BSG model - or a big bad wolf comes out of nowhere to destroy whole civilizations with an incredible level of technology which is what the Expanse is getting at. All fine but that was quite the info-dump. It felt as if the writers all of a sudden realized that they have kept their cards a bit too close to the vest so far.

And is Soji now Data's daughter or a member of a synth race or both?

I enjoyed Raffi and the conclave of five. And her doomsday glee about her conspiracy theories having been correct. I would also enjoy a spin-off with Elnor and Seven.

 

Edited March 13, 2020 by MissLucas

[paigow]

2 hours ago, MissLucas said:

 😁. I would also enjoy a spin-off with Elnor and Seven.

Joining a small vigilante group struggling for justice is a lost cause.

[thuganomics85]

I believe this episode had three F-bombs dropped, which I believe is a record for this show (or, really, Star Trek in general.)  Getting a little saucy, aren't we?!

Certainly a lot of information dumping that I'm still processing, but the main gist seems to be that the Romulans believe that Soji and the synths similar to her/from her mysterious home planet are destined to destroy the galaxy, so that is why they are hellbent on wiping them out.  Also, Oh has been a mole since the beginning, who has been using Starfleet to hunt them down on her end.  Which includes ordering the deaths of a pair that were found by Rios and his captain during his Starfleet days, which led to the captain committing suicide, and that's why Rios has become so disillusioned.  Yikes! 

Meanwhile, everyone knows that Agnes was working for Oh and she is prepared to surrender herself and take responsibility when this is all over, but I suspect something will prevent her from leaving the crew for good.  I don't see the show getting rid of Allison Pill, unless she is the one that wants out.

Raffi and the Holographic Rios were fun.  In general, they've done a solid turnaround with Raffi, in my opinion.

Definitely felt like Picard was more like his TNG self here.  Patrick Stewart can make any speech sound grand and spectacular!

Seven of Nine returns and basically takes over as the Borg Queen of that particular cub, in order to take on the Romulans.  Sadly, most of the drones are dead and Rizzo escaped in the end, but it was nice that she had them on the run at least.  But my favorite parts were Elnor's hug when she first showed up and then the little smile he gave at the end.  Dude's totally fanboying over Seven and I don't blame him in the slightest!

So, I'm guessing that ship at the end was Narek? I wonder how he figured out where they were?  It better not involve him tracking down Riker and Troi off-screen and doing something to them, because enough of that, show!  I'm still not over Hugh!

[Llywela]

I really enjoyed this episode - excellent work from all the actors, with one or two absolute stand-outs.

21 hours ago, marieYOTZ said:

I’m a bit confused about who the third synth girl was, the one Rios met before - I thought they were built in pairs, were these ones triplets? 

Unfortunately, I am struggling to believe in a vision of synth-takeover so terrible that it makes you claw your face off, or beat your head in with a rock. They’re going to have to expand on that a little bit more.  I’ll admit, at first I was like “Hmm, I think this past synth-takeover was shown on one of the Treks...” Then after a minute I realized I was thinking of the Orville, and the thwarted takeover by Isaac’s species, whoops! 😂

Jurati thought the synths would be created in pairs, using fractal cloning. Dahj and Soji are definitely a pair, sent by Maddox to the Borg cube and the Daystrom Institute in search of information of some kind, we don't yet know what. I think the third synth girl met by Rios nine years ago indicates that Maddox did not create Dahj and Soji alone, that perhaps he went to the planet Soji calls home and used a pattern already in existence there.

That face, however, had previously been painted by Data - so does that suggest perhaps that Noonian Soong also had help creating his androids, that Data too was linked to this planet of synths? I suspect there is a lot more still to be revealed!

16 hours ago, greekmom said:

I was just coming to mention this.  Next, the Zhat Vash have been around longer than the ceremony that was shown indoctrinate the new sisters in the clan.  Therefore, if the threat from synths has been around thousands of years, why had none of them gone after Data when he was serving on the Enterprise?

I think there are two reasons for this - firstly, that Data himself was not identified as the Seb Cheneb, the Destroyer, but was seen as a warning sign that aggressive action needed to be taken to prevent further development, and secondly, that the Zhat Vash simply never got close enough to Data to be able to take him out. On the rare occasions Data came into close contact with Romulans, the Zhat Vash weren't in a position to do anything about it, perhaps. We were told in this episode that it was because of Data that Oh was sent to infiltrate Starfleet, and it took a long time for her to work her way through the ranks to a position of influence, by which time Data was already long dead anyway. Data wasn't the big concern of the Zhat Vash - they were more concerned with preventing android development from advancing any further.

9 hours ago, paigow said:

How did those XB NOT get jettisoned?

They were in a different part of the Cube. The drones who were jettisoned were being held in stasis in the inactive part of the Cube. The XBs were all in the part of the Cube that had been converted into accommodation and laboratories - the part Narissa and her men were also in, so they couldn't vent the atmosphere there without also killing themselves.

8 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

So who was in that ship trailing the La Sirena through the trans-warp conduit ?

I bet 7 of 9 fires up the Borg Cube and heads out with Elnor to assist Picard.

Narek, I would say.

And yes, it seems almost certain that Seven and Elnor will take the Cube to Picard's rescue - there would be no point to their sub-plot on the Cube otherwise. And since La Sirena travelled to Soji's homeworld through a Borg transwarp conduit...well, the Cube is ideally positioned to be able to follow.

8 hours ago, Ottis said:

Add “oblivious” to this version of Picard. He didn’t notice Rios’ reaction to Soji? Thank goodness Raffy stumbled onto it.

Seven continues to be the only character dealing with some weighty and intriguing choices.

Still not buying the Romulan mindmeld persuasion. But I do very much like the fleshing out of the Romulan dislike of synths, even if it, like the warrior women, is stolen from the Dune books.  It gives the bad guys complexity.

Picard has been oblivious to many things throughout this show, it has been a major part of his characterisation, that in his old age, after so many years of virtual hermitude, he has become so blinkered in his pursuit of this mission that he keeps forgetting to pay attention to what is going on with the people around him, emotionally. He had done it numerous times now - see how insensitive he was toward Soji last week, or to Raffi when she was falling apart over her son's rejection but still managed to pull it together to secure Picard the access he needed to the Borg cube. It was Rios who was acutely aware of Raffi's distress then, so it seems fitting that she would immediately notice his here.

I thought there was a strong parallel between Picard's reaction to setting foot on a Borg cube again the other week and Rios's reaction to seeing Soji here - in Picard's case we were shown his flashbacks to help us understand just how badly his trauma had been triggered, but here I thought Rios's reaction was just as acute, albeit not reinforced with flashbacks. Excellent work by Cabrera, I thought - not just pulling off six distinct characters in one episode, but his portrayal of Rios's distress and drunkenness was very well played.

I actually think most of the characters are dealing with extremely weighty issues and intriguing choices, tbh, even if most of them aren't as dramatic as taking control of a Borg cube.

Jurati described her mindmeld with Oh as poison and I think there is probably more truth in that than she realises. Whatever it is that the Zhat Vash initiatives are put through during their admonition, it seems to be more than merely a vision of destruction. I think it genuinely poisons their minds. After all, whoever left that message, we only have their word for it that it is meant as a well-intentioned warning rather than anything more sinister, and even if they did mean it for the best, they had no way of predicting the biology or psychology of whoever found that warning, or how their technology would affect them. So there is probably a lot more going on there than a mere vision of doom.

[pootlus]

22 hours ago, marieYOTZ said:

I’m a bit confused about who the third synth girl was, the one Rios met before - I thought they were built in pairs, were these ones triplets? 

tbh when they described the star system with 8 stars, I am starting to wonder whether there might be 8!

20 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I enjoyed the scene with the five holograms of Rios. It was a nice moment of levity and a welcome break from all the drama.

Really enjoyed this too, great performances by Michelle Hurd and Santiago Cabrera.

7 hours ago, starri said:

Agreed, and there was some line that Agnes had that made my husband and I start quoting lines from Battlestar Galactica.  Something about synthetic life evolving.

I totally had Battlestar Galactica flashbacks.  I may even have muttered "they evolved" at some point.

2 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

It better not involve him tracking down Riker and Troi off-screen and doing something to them, because enough of that, show!  I'm still not over Hugh!

It's a logical conclusion, unfortunately.  And I'm also still gutted about Hugh.

6 hours ago, MissLucas said:

I guess that was the last we've seen of Narissa or was she able to beam out?

I was hoping that the XBs ripped her apart but I suspect the glow just before the scene cut was her teleporting out.

7 hours ago, marinw said:

I did live the scene were Soji tells Picard that Data did love him.

Same.  And she said it with such immediate certainty that he believed her at once, and you could see how affected he was.

I would like to third/fourth/fifth the desire for a Seven/Elnor spin-off.  Those two have tons of big sister/little brother type chemistry and they both have lots to explore in their characters - especially Seven, but Elnor needs to discover himself as a person outside of his vows.

[ottoDbusdriver]

Rios said that the names of the 2 synths the Capt. Vandermeer killed were Janna and Beautiful Flower.  There has to be a clue in the name about who the 2nd synth is.  We only saw Janna's image from that drawing -- I'm curious what Beautiful Flower looked like.  

If you step though the images that the Zhat Vash saw on Aia, when you see the android face it morphs into Commander Data's face.  How would this ancient civilization know about Data ?

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Rios said that the names of the 2 synths the Capt. Vandermeer killed were Janna and Beautiful Flower.  There has to be a clue in the name about who the 2nd synth is.  We only saw Janna's image from that drawing -- I'm curious what Beautiful Flower looked like.  

If you step though the images that the Zhat Vash saw on Aia, when you see the android face it morphs into Commander Data's face.  How would this ancient civilization know about Data ?

Beautiful Flower was an older man, Rios said, who introduced Jana as his protegee. I wondered for a moment if Beautiful Flower was a Data clone, but I'm pretty sure the Starfleet officers on the ibn Majid would have recognised him, if so. Data was a famous figure within Starfleet.

It seems almost certain at this point that a link is going to be uncovered between Data and the planet of androids that Soji comes from. Perhaps Noonian 'Often Wrong' Soong found his way there once and that is how he discovered the secret of creating a stable positronic brain, a secret no one else had cracked and which no one after him could replicate...until Maddox, who clearly also borrowed the tech, in the end, rather than re-creating it on his own. How the ancient civilisation links in with that, though, is anyone's guess at this point!

[HotRats2112]

This episode made me like a lot of the characters, in some cases, again.  Seven of Nine continues to be one of the biggest bad asses in all of Star Trek.  Loved her on Voyager and am loving her here.  When she plugged in and started regenerating the cube I was thinking it was a new Borg collective.  Which would be great fodder for season 2.  Thankfully she unplugged.  When she said "We are Borg" I got chills. And then they blew the hatches and she felt everyone of their deaths.  

This was a pretty heavy episode for a lot of characters.

[Ottis]

I'm guessing that what I got from the Romulan perspective in this ep wasn't supposed to make me understand and like them, but it did. Given what they know happened in the past with AI, why wouldn't they feel this way about AI today? Just because Data was a good guy (Lore wasn't) and now we are led to believe Soji is a good person doesn't mean all or even most AI would be so. You might not like the Romulans methods, but I get their view.

This all reminds me of the thing I loved most about Babylon 5, which I will put in a spoiler tag if you, for some reason, have never seen the series:

Spoiler

B5 spent years positioning "the Shadows" as mysterious villains. The main characters shared the same perspective, and as viewers we were convinced that the epic battle of light vs. dark (Shadows) would be the culmination of the series. But then, maybe season 3, or 4, we began to learn that the Shadows just had a different view of what drives progress in species. They felt stability breeds inertia, and that conflict sparks innovation. And they had historical examples to support their belief, as do we IRL. Their way was messier and bloodier, but over the long-term, it enables civilization to thrive. That blew my mind. Maybe I was naive, but I had been duped completely, and once I understood the philosophy behind the factions, it become a much more complex show and I will always remember it fondly for that.

Like I said, based on some lines at the end of this ep, I don't think ST:P wants me to feel empathy for the Romulan view. But I do, I really do. And if I'm wrong and this show is going to go somewhere like B5 but more sophisticated, I will love it.

[Chit Chat]

14 hours ago, Ottis said:

Still not buying the Romulan mindmeld persuasion.

Me either.  What if their thoughts have been manipulated and the Synths aren't the enemy?  Is their view of the future even necessarily right?  I have my doubts.  

[Llywela]

I think it is important to remember that it isn't all Romulans who feel this way about artificial life, only this very small but influential cabal, who have all in turn been influenced by the memory dump left by that ancient race in the octonary system. And as I understand it, the warning isn't 'synthetic life is terrible in and of itself', but rather 'if synthetic life is developed past a certain threshold, terrible things happen.'

It has always been clear that synthetic life carries risks - how many times did Data get corrupted and hijack the Enterprise? Rios pointed out here how easily Soji hacked La Sirena, and we have seen very clearly how dangerous she could be if she wanted. So it isn't an unreasonable fear. But fear, as Picard said, can't be the only response. Anyone could be dangerous if they really wanted - look how lethal our little murder nun Elnor has proved himself to be. Look how lethal the Zhat Vash have been, the catastrophic trail of destruction they have left in their wake in pursuit of what they believe is a noble aim. Does the end justify the means? I don't think so. And the point is that a person doesn't have to be synthetic to be dangerous, so it is unreasonable to fear all synths just as it would be unreasonable to fear all aliens, or all humans. 

I really hope that Picard's little message of optimism at the end will ultimately carry the day - it should do, this is Star Trek after all.

[spar500]

JL is to Jean Luc  as Beautiful Flower is to B Four ????

[F8.]

On 3/13/2020 at 1:55 AM, kokapetl said:

Picard was acting more like TNG Picard in this episode

You're right - as soon as you said that I realised why I was liking him more in this episode

[Vandy10]

I am liking this show a lot. The one misstep for me was in failing to convey how awful this Destroyer threat is. Nothing we saw in the Admonition or Oh's mindmeld with Agnes leads me to believe people will go mad or suicidal from seeing it. 

I guess that's just a limitation of the medium. If they could show us something so terrible, well, no audience could watch it.

Except for Narek's sister, I guess. Was the show trying to tell us she's super mentally strong to have withstood the Admonition so calmly, or that she was already a messed-up psychopath?

[dwmarch]

3 hours ago, spar500 said:

JL is to Jean Luc  as Beautiful Flower is to B Four ????

B4 is in pieces in a drawer at the Daystrom Institute (as seen in episode 1) although it's possible that could be a copy.

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, Vandy10 said:

I am liking this show a lot. The one misstep for me was in failing to convey how awful this Destroyer threat is. Nothing we saw in the Admonition or Oh's mindmeld with Agnes leads me to believe people will go mad or suicidal from seeing it. 

I guess that's just a limitation of the medium. If they could show us something so terrible, well, no audience could watch it.

Except for Narek's sister, I guess. Was the show trying to tell us she's super mentally strong to have withstood the Admonition so calmly, or that she was already a messed-up psychopath?

I agree about the limitation of the medium. The showrunner of this show is first and foremost a novelist rather than a telewriter, and it does show at times - Michael Chabon has been answering questions on Instagram after each episode, and it is very clear from his answers that the story he devised for the show is intricately detailed and incredibly rich, but only a fraction of that detailing is coming across on screen. For instance, he said that the Admonition is a total immersion experience - not just images but sounds and smells, a thousand years of history dumped into the brain in seconds. That was how he envisaged it, and I can easily imagine how beautifully and richly it would be described as part of a novel...but on TV, all we get is a few seconds worth of images.

He also said, for what it's worth, that the images of Airiam and Data in the info-dump are just how 24th century brains translate what they are seeing.

Re: Narissa, probably a bit of both!

[starri]

1 hour ago, Llywela said:

He also said, for what it's worth, that the images of Airiam and Data in the info-dump are just how 24th century brains translate what they are seeing.

Wow.  I saw Data, but Airiam didn't even register.

[paigow]

[Interior: Zhat Vash meeting room]

Super Elder 1: Why is our staff retention level so low?

Oh: We lose 75-87% of members every time we show that Admonition...recruiting is tough when nobody is supposed to know that the group actually exists...

[marieYOTZ]

3 hours ago, Llywela said:

For instance, he said that the Admonition is a total immersion experience - not just images but sounds and smells, a thousand years of history dumped into the brain in seconds. That was how he envisaged it, and I can easily imagine how beautifully and richly it would be described as part of a novel...but on TV, all we get is a few seconds worth of images.

That’s exactly what I meant when I said More explanation was necessary - i know they can’t devise a sufficiently terrifying clip-reel, but having Jurati just say a few words about how what was put in her mind went beyond just seeing visions, and how viscerally terrifying it was, would really give some context. 

[Florinaldo]

21 minutes ago, marieYOTZ said:

That’s exactly what I meant when I said More explanation was necessary - i know they can’t devise a sufficiently terrifying clip-reel

The sequence is also edited in the hyperkinetic fast-cutting style that is very much in vogue in some SF shows (like Doctor Who). Since it is hard to really catch any visual cues (Data's appearance goes by so fast I was not sure about it when I first saw the episode), there very little real meaning we can get from the sequence, apart from the reaction of most of the apprentices telling us it was very, very bad. And even there I was left wondering "why did they overreact that way"? If their minds were psychically invaded, it should have been stated more explicitely.

Do Borg drones die when spaced out of a ship or do their nannites keep regenerating them forever?

 

[wanderingstar]

Had to roll my eyes when Narissa was the only one to survive seeing the Admonition. Sure, show, sure.

It was touching when Elnor hugged Seven. He really is quite lost, isn't he.

I like Rios and Raffi's bond.

How hard was Santiago Cabrera working in this episode. Damn. In spite of myself, I liked the scenes with the holos and the one where Raffi brought them all together.

I was tickled when Picard said to Rios "Actually, I don't know how to work this."

And I loved loved loved Picard and Rios' chat on the bridge.  

Dumping the Borg directly into space was...rough.

I really like Allison Pill on this show. She's doing a great job showing Agnes' struggle.

[aemom]

On 3/12/2020 at 12:06 PM, greekmom said:

Therefore, if the threat from synths has been around thousands of years, why had none of them gone after Data when he was serving on the Enterprise?

This is really bothering me too. A lot.

[Llywela]

4 hours ago, Florinaldo said:

Do Borg drones die when spaced out of a ship or do their nannites keep regenerating them forever?

As far as I recall, evidence is mixed. Seven certainly reacted as if they were all being killed - tying in with this show's new interpretation of Borg drones as individuals who have been horribly violated but can be reclaimed.

From Narissa's point of view, it doesn't actually matter if the drones die when spaced or not. She just needed to get them off the Cube so they couldn't be used against her, which - job done.

On 3/12/2020 at 4:06 PM, greekmom said:

I was just coming to mention this.  Next, the Zhat Vash have been around longer than the ceremony that was shown indoctrinate the new sisters in the clan.  Therefore, if the threat from synths has been around thousands of years, why had none of them gone after Data when he was serving on the Enterprise?

From what we learned in this episode, Data was seen by the Zhat Vash as a warning, rather than as the seb cheneb himself. He was sophisticated, but not sophisticated enough to represent the tipping point that would cause the terrible events witnessed in the Admonition. Opportunities to get close to Data would have been extremely limited anyway, given the effective cold war between the Federation and Romulan Empire, and the Zhat Vash are a small cabal who can't be everywhere, so rather than focus their efforts on trying to get to Data, they turned their attention to what to them was the more important mission: infiltrating Star Fleet in order to reach a position where they could prevent synthetic research from advancing any further.

[paigow]

9 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

It was touching when Elnor hugged Seven. He really is  ______

• Horny teen
• Shocked that a surrogate "Badass Sister/Mother" figure exists.
• Amazed that his wish came true [Help Button]

[paigow]

What happened to phaser technology? TOS could vaporize on kill setting- e.g. Captain Terrell suicide...100 years later Vandemeer uses the .44 Magnum setting...WTF?

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

What happened to phaser technology? TOS could vaporize on kill setting- e.g. Captain Terrell suicide...100 years later Vandemeer uses the .44 Magnum setting...WTF?

Easy enough to infer that it wasn't set to kill - a phaser set on stun will kill at close enough range, which a shot into the mouth can definitely be classed as.

[Florinaldo]

7 hours ago, Llywela said:

Seven certainly reacted as if they were all being killed

Yes, it does point to them dying. Otherwise she could simply have beamed back on board all those she could track and they would revive.

Perhaps Vandemeer is one of those captains who keep historic keepsakes, like a Magnum, in their ready room. Although I think there might be a Starfleet regulation about a loaded weapon of that sort lying around. Stun setting at close range is a good possible explanation.

[Prower]

So let me get this straight. The Zhat Vash decided, that, after having watched the federation build Androids for decades, the right time to destroy all of Mars and cause the federation to be isolationist, was when a magically big super nova was destroying their whole star empire and killing billions of their fellow Romulans? They couldn't have waited a month? It was that important to do it there and now?

Not to mention that it was a stupid plan in the first place. All it did was drive Madox into hiding. Had the synth ban not happened, he would have continuet his research in the open and they could have easily monitored and stopped him when he got close. No searching for a stupid secret home planet!

These writers are killing my math skills, because I can't even with them!

The rest of the episode was surprisingly okay, but it's hard to fuck up bottle episodes.

 

Edited March 14, 2020 by Prower

[tennisgurl]

Santiago Cabrera was really working hard for the money this week! So many Rios! This was a really great episode for him in general, where not only do we get a funny scene of Raffi dealing with the many different Rios holograms, but I thought he was also really good when he was depressed and drunk and talking about what happened with his former captain. Glad to get more of his backstory and while he got a lot of great more show-y acting moments, I really loved when he saw Soji and not shut down for a second and ran for it. You could really see him getting smacked in the face with flashbacks. Then he gave Soji waffles and ice cream! 

I also really liked Raffi using her conspiracy theorist stuff to both figure things out, and be a supportive friend to Rios, I have really come to like their friendship a lot. As the show goes on, you can see more of the kind of officer she probably was before she got fired and went all bitter and tin foil hat wearing. 

Such language this week show! 

Also loved the Star Fleet women Picard yelled at shutting him down to be like "Shut up Picard you already convinced me, we`re on it! Stop with the speech!" 

Of course, thats one of the rare times that I would want a Picard speech to stop, nobody can give a speech about the importance of doing the right thing like Patrick Stewart. His speech to Rios about never giving into fear was classic Picard, and I really liked him waxing a bit nostalgic about being an ensign new to space. I also loved his reaction when Soji told him that Data loved him, it was so heartfelt. 

Allison Pill had a good episode too, and while I still dont fully know if I trust Agnes, I do think that she feels disgusted by what she did, and is going to try and move forward and try to, you know, not murder people. 

Poor Elnor, he has gone through a whole lot really quickly (especially losing Hugh! Me too Elnor, me too) and was just so happy to see Seven, he practically collapsed into her. Elnor might be a major badass, but he is also young and sheltered and has been suddenly dropped into this whole insane situation very quickly. 

So whatever happened on this planet years ago involving Synths was so bad and horrible that it makes even tough Romulans bash their own heads in with rocks because its so awful. So was the real evil Cthulhu the whole time? 

[Llywela]

2 hours ago, Prower said:

So let me get this straight. The Zhat Vash decided, that, after having watched the federation build Androids for decades, the right time to destroy all of Mars and cause the federation to be isolationist, was when a magically big super nova was destroying their whole star empire and killing billions of their fellow Romulans? They couldn't have waited a month? It was that important to do it there and now?

A month wouldn't have made any difference. The supernova would have been known about for years beforehand, and the evacuation would have taken most of those years. The supernova didn't happen for two or three years after the Mars attack. The loss of life among those who couldn't be evacuated in time were clearly considered collateral damage by the Zhat Vash - who are pretty much driven out of their minds by the Admonition, let us not forget, so I'm not sure why anyone would look for reasonable logic from them! They clearly felt the collateral damage was a price worth paying for what they absolutely and utterly believe is a greater good. And, you know - they are Romulans. We already know from that ex-senator on Vashti that a lot of them didn't believe the fleet being assembled by Starfleet was a rescue mission anyway, so the Zhat Vash may well have considered the loss of life inevitable either way.

Also, they didn't watch the Federation building androids for decades. Data was considered pretty much unique (Lore notwithstanding). No one was able to replicate Soong's work - the synths working on Mars were a step or three backward from Data, nowhere near as sophisticated. The Zhat Vash worked for years to infiltrate Starfleet because they saw Data as a warning sign and wanted to prevent more sophisticated androids being developed, and carried out the Mars attack, by the sounds of it, pretty much as soon as they were in a position to act. And from their point of view, it worked perfectly. Job done...apart from loose ends like Bruce Maddox, which they have been trying to mop up ever since.

Edited March 14, 2020 by Llywela