S18.E12: The Height of Avant Garde Fashion

[Ohiopirate02]

3 minutes ago, Captain Asshat said:

The problem I have with Sergio's political story in this challenge is that he stated he was telling the story of a female Samurai -- a warrior. Then he put her in Geisha makeup. The roles of the Geishas and the Samurai are not interchangeable. He likely chose that makeup, because that's the only Asian look he knows, but it totally took away from his "women can be warriors just like men" story. Even in this forum, people are discussing his Geisha look, which is not what his look was supposed to be. In that respect, he ruined his own story.

I saw him being inspired by McQueen (who wouldn't be?) and spinning his own interpretation of it.  He was so quick to point out McQueen's influence was Geishas while his was the onna bugeisha.  Two entirely different groups of Japanese women and the styling of each obviously would be different.  That Sergio went with the trite Geisha inspired makeup made his lies obvious.  I'm glad Nina called him out for it because it sounded like Sergio knew that critique was coming.  I can't figure out why in the last challenge before the finale he would try this approach.  Why poke Nina again when you don't have to?  

[Calamity Jane]

On 3/1/2020 at 12:29 PM, gingerella said:

Apparently the standards for 'avant garde' are so low that latex panties qualifies now? Yes, Geoffrey's top was lovely, but the panties were a cop out and I thought that train was just an add on that lacked any sense of cohesion, to be honest.

To me, when I think PR avant garde challenge I think of this:

Christian Siriano & Chris March:

To me, this was the best avant garge response that any designer(s) have made to date on PR and the one I hold all others up against. And none of this year's crop even comes close, quite frankly. They're all rather sad examples of maybe a talented high school fashion class.

So agree!  Chris and Christian made a garment I’ll always remember. It’s so sad that Chris passed away. He had a short-running show about designing for various clients. I believe one design was for a Mardi Gras parade. One was for Chrissy Teigen, first time I’d ever heard of her or John Legend. 

And in the back of my mind there is a recollection that although that avant-garde challenge was two days, they ended up having to create a “regular” version of the look as well, and Christian undertook that all on his own because he was incredibly fast at sewing. I’m recalling basically a sheath dress of similar material. Or did I fantasize this?  In any case, I have been a Christian fan since that challenge. 

Edited March 2, 2020 by Calamity Jane

[tinderbox]

I thought Brittany’s poorly structured, puffy, Pepto Bismol colored, butterfly mess was atrocious.  Adding the floppy plastic butterflies was the frosting on the cake of poor ideas.  

[carrps]

On 3/2/2020 at 10:10 AM, Captain Asshat said:

I'm not going to say that Asian history is my strong suit, but Samurai were Japanese warriors, and I do believe that there were female Samurai who fought alongside men. "Mulan" is set in China, and the Chinese Imperial Army may very well have had different traditions/rules about  women serving in battle during the timeframe of the story.

The book I'm reading now is a collection of short stories by the early 20th c. Japanese writer, Atukagawa. He wrote a lot of stories based on centuries old fables. The one I read last night mentioned a lady of a great house (Munemori, IIRC) being an expert at martial arts. After all this talk here, it was cool to read that. 

Edited March 4, 2020 by carrps
didn't notice how badly I misspelled the name

[Jessa]

On 2/28/2020 at 6:09 AM, DEL901 said:

 

And as some said upthread, with part of the prize being a CFDA mentorship, do Sergio or Victoria really have a chance to win unless the other two really tank.   

It has crossed my mind that Sergio may think that he will be the mentor in that situation should he win.

[BlackberryJam]

Well, if Sergio gets to mentor people, then all of his incredible knowledge will be passed on and it won't be lost to the world if he dies. Because...I mean, that's my big fear, the loss of Sergio's knowledge.

[morakot]

22 hours ago, violet and green said:

Here you go:

https://www.google.com/search?q=onna+bugeisha&rlz=1C1AOHY_enAU708AU708&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj6ue_Ry_rnAhXryDgGHYsaB6QQ_AUoAXoECDkQAw

None of these are wearing anything like the shape and style of Sergio's dress, as far as I can see. He had mentioned adding structures to the back (similar to quivers, scabbards, and flag holders?)  but then did not. Japanese court ladies did have trailing outer kimono that acted like a train but they would be impractical for a warrior. As usual, he had a shape, and forced an idea onto it.

[stormy weather]

5 hours ago, Captain Asshat said:

The problem I have with Sergio's political story in this challenge is that he stated he was telling the story of a female Samurai -- a warrior. Then he put her in Geisha makeup. The roles of the Geishas and the Samurai are not interchangeable. He likely chose that makeup, because that's the only Asian look he knows, but it totally took away from his "women can be warriors just like men" story. Even in this forum, people are discussing his Geisha look, which is not what his look was supposed to be. In that respect, he ruined his own story.

Onna-bugeisha (literally "female warrior", so technically not female samurai) and geisha (literally "person of the art") are of course two different things with different roles. I have to say though that if you look up pictures of onna-bugeishas they often have the same hairstyle and makeup as geishas, so I think the red lips and that particular hairdo were more of a traditional Japanese style for women in general than specifically for geishas. I might be wrong of course.

Now, whether Sergio knew that or not when he decided to go for that classic style for his model, that's another story. (and I'm guessing not)

[carrps]

1 minute ago, stormy weather said:

Onna-bugeisha (literally "female warrior", so technically not female samurai) and geisha (literally "person of the art") are of course two different things with different roles. I have to say though that if you look up pictures of onna-bugeishas they often have the same hairstyle and makeup as geishas, so I think the red lips and that particular hairdo were more of a traditional Japanese style for women in general than specifically for geishas. I might be wrong of course.

Now, whether Sergio knew that or not when he decided to go for that classic style for his model, that's another story. (and I'm guessing not)

Yes, but that top photo looks colorized or hand-tinted. She really doesn't look like she's wearing much make-up. Plus in a formal photographic portrait I'd imagine they'd wear more than they would in battle. Most of the actual photographs I googled looked like they were wearing little or no make-up. They certainly looked very differently than geisha.

 

[Lemons]

18 hours ago, nokat said:

Okay, as someone who did say appropriation about Sergio. Maybe because he is so political I found his geisha styling a bit so? And is not screaming it, just a nod.

 

Edited to add, I don't like hyperbole.

 

No one is screaming in here, but out there in the world, they are screaming it and crossing the line into absurdity.  But if you're political you can't appreciate other cultures and create pieces celebrating them?  Including make up?

[Aethera]

Folks, remember to disagree respectfully. Sergio's comments and choices may be polarizing, but there is room for many opinions. There is no need for anyone to defend Sergio or any other designer from every negative comment or counteract every positive one. Posts that are rude or disrespectful to other posters are not tolerated here. 

[nokat]

I know I'm looking forward to all four collections.
 

[violet and green]

I don't know why Sergio says half the things he says on the runway, but defending himself for his place in the finals is completely understandable, as is trying to explain and to clarify his intentions and his inspiration, however clumsily he may sometimes do so.

However, at least in the art of the time, these warrior women were depicted wearing white face paint/powder and highly pigmented red lips in a stylized fashion.

I am very interested in makeup... 

"With the advent of the Muromachi period (1333-1573), the culture and institutions of the warrior houses were perfected, and cosmetics are mentioned in a number of writings from this era."

https://www.jcia.org/en/info/history

The look the makeup artist came up with was quite a general interpretation of classical Japanese makeup, seen in the artwork depicting the onna-bugeisha  (three examples of which were visible on screen during this ep as Sergio first talked of his inspiration for his avant-garde piece, all wearing white powder; and multiple examples of highly made up warriors can be found with little effort on the google images page I previously linked), and also seen in classical female Kabuki makeup variations, eg:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Japan_Kabuki_actress_makeup_1202.jpg

And variations of a similar style are seen with the beautiful tradition of the Geishas. Many different traditions, including the warrior women, used a similar application of white pigment called oshiroi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshiroi

Would Sergio's design have been as effective with a standard base and a nice taupe or mauve lip and a sandy beige or a cheeky apricot eye with a cat-flick liner? Maybe. I don't think so.

PS: nice pics above, stormy weather! 

 

 

 

[Vermicious Knid]

And unfortunately the white face paint was made with lead and a lot of Japanese women died of lead poisoning.

[chitowngirl]

Looking at the schedule, it looks like it’s the usual 2 part finale-Thursday is home visits, perhaps an extra twist/challenge, and finishing the garments drama. The 12th is where we’ll see the collections.

[BlackberryJam]

I have not been able to find the collections online and NYFW was last month. I know they walked, 10 designers, as a football player walked in Chelsey's show and instagrammed about it. I want to see ALL the collections. 

[TaraS1]

I'm finally all caught up on this season and I cannot tell you guys how it warms my soul to come here and see that so many of you share in my hatred of Brittany's pissy mean girl attitude towards Nancy.  She wasn't the only one, but she was the worst offender IMO.  Thank you, karma, for coming and snatching that little smirk off her face.

Also, Sergio should call Kenley and they can start a support group for people who have been gutted and left for dead on the runway by Nina.

Edited March 3, 2020 by TaraS1

[chitowngirl]

3 hours ago, TaraS1 said:

Also, Sergio should call Kenley and they can start a support group for people who have been gutted and left for dead on the runway by Nina

They’d get along famously!! Such similar personalities and They like that 1950s vibe in their designs.

[TaraS1]

Yes!  So true @chitowngirl!  Kenley always did enjoy that 50's housewife look....that wonderful era when women were at their most powerful and treated as complete equals.

[Ilovepie]

6 hours ago, TaraS1 said:

I'm finally all caught up on this season and I cannot tell you guys how it warms my soul to come here and see that so many of you share in my hatred of Brittany's pissy mean girl attitude towards Nancy.  She wasn't the only one, but she was the worst offender IMO.  Thank you, karma, for coming and snatching that little smirk off her face.

Agree one hundred percent! The fact that Nancy made the final four and Brittany didn't has made the season for me. I don't care who wins. Well, anyone except Victoria, I guess. But really, I just wanted Nancy to outlast that smug little twit.

I loved the retrospective, and that the designers got to pick which pieces to show. I thought for sure Geoffrey would pick his tie dye dress, but I think he made the right choice because the tux was more cohesive to his other pieces. I think doing that really showed the designers perspective and it looked so cool coming down that building. Best thing on this show for a while.

I really hate the Avant Garde challenge. Nobody seems to have any idea what that means other than something weird. And if it's not weird, it's too normal and then they are told it's not Avant Garde. Enough already. Besides, no one will ever design something as amazing as that dress that Christian and Chris March made. Never. They should have just told them to use the building as an inspiration and leave it at that.

[treeofdreams]

None of these designers seem to have much imagination.  Avant garde requires major imagination!

[Kira53]

Just having the time to catch the episode on my DRV. 

I suppose someone has observed that they eliminated all the larger girls after "Dr Dior" was gone.  I'm happy because  the larger girls were a negative random factor in a designer's performance.  Clothes are for everyone but "fashion" is for stick figures who are hangers for the garments.  No shade for bigger girls, I was always one, but "our" notion of fashion doesn't include big curves or short people.  Not an outfit on this episode's 3 piece runway would have looked great on the "special" models and I don't think there was ever a winning outfit on the special models.  I'm OK if there would be an episode where everyone got "special" models with very close measurements.  That would be fair.

Geoffrey's effort was IMHO very mediocre.  Avantgarde was a softball designed for him and he fluffed it.  His "panty" represented a lack of ideas.  But it was preordained that he would go to fashion week.  I watch the show even though it is not a true competition and the producers make the choices and the editors edit the judges comments to fit the narrative.

Wouldn't it be great if one of the fashion schools would offer a full scholarship and mentorship to a self taught designer every competition?

 

[Brookside]

Anyone else notice that the host is now apparently borrowing Geoffrey's jewelry?

Speaking of Geoffrey, his model looked as though she was wearing the Sydney Opera House.

[nb360]

On 3/3/2020 at 9:34 AM, chitowngirl said:

Looking at the schedule, it looks like it’s the usual 2 part finale-Thursday is home visits, perhaps an extra twist/challenge, and finishing the garments drama. The 12th is where we’ll see the collections.

Just to be clear: Is tonight's show one hour or two hours?

[chitowngirl]

7 minutes ago, nb360 said:

Just to be clear: Is tonight's show one hour or two hours?

The usual hour and a half.

[susannot]

Hello.  So sorry that I am late to the game.  Caught up in Survivor thread.  I LOVED the fashion show in the Vessel, which I visited last year, and thought it the most dramatic I have ever seen on Project Runway.  I was amazed by the grace of the models and gained respect for their ability to walk down that structure as almost an athletic talent.

Ummm.. does Geoffrey seem to really like Victoria a lot, for a gay guy?  Or am I reading  into it something  that is not there?

[DaphneCat]

22 hours ago, Brookside said:

Anyone else notice that the host is now apparently borrowing Geoffrey's jewelry?

Speaking of Geoffrey, his model looked as though she was wearing the Sydney Opera House.

OMG - now I can't unsee that.