S06.E11: Love Is A Battlefield

[Trini]

Barry and Iris plan a romantic dinner for Valentine's Day but their evening is interrupted by an old foe - Amunet (guest star Katee Sackhoff). Meanwhile, Frost gets into the holiday spirit and attempts to help Allegra (guest star Kayla Compton) reconnect with an old love.

Sudz Sutherland directed the episode written by Kelly Wheeler & Jeff Hersh.

Airdate: 2/11/2020

[shantown]

So wait, super smart scientist Barry Allen, inventor of Gideon, inventor of a mobile Gideon.... had to buy an Alexa for his home?

[mtlchick]

7 minutes ago, shantown said:

had to buy an Alexa for his home?

He still needs Amazon for deliveries he has no control over?

 I'm a bit confused as what changes happened to Amnuet and if Frost has fully taken over Caitlin. 

Edited February 12, 2020 by mtlchick

[phoenics]

The Allegra/Frost parts I could've done without.

I liked MirrorIris - partially because I couldn't tell if it was a clone or not the whole time until the very end when we see poor RealIris banging on the mirror.

There are some pretty big tells that she's not RealIris - what does it say about Barry that he can't tell it's not his wife when Iris knew within 5 seconds darkBarry wasn't her husband when Bloodwork took him over?

But I enjoyed this episode - although the Gold/Amunet stuff was too childish tbh.

Candice Patton is just amazing though - she put in just enough nuance for Iris to be "off" but you can easily explain it away... 

 

Just now, mtlchick said:

He still needs Amazon for deliveries he has no control over?

So it seems Crisis made Iris a better cook, a bit more of a bad ass and speaks Italian? That's all fine and good, but I'm a bit confused as what changes happened to Amnuet and if Frost has fully taken over Caitlin. 

Did you miss the last scene?  

The part with RealIris banging on the mirror from the inside - watching fakeMirrorIris kissing and hugging her husband?

[mtlchick]

2 minutes ago, phoenics said:

The part with RealIris banging on the mirror from the inside - watching fakeMirrorIris kissing and hugging her husband?

Doh! Tuned into This Is Us instead. Edited my post. 

[phoenics]

Did anyone ever watch episodes of Lois & Clark?  This scenario TOTALLY reminds me of those episodes where Lex replaces real Lois with a clone (that poor Clark actually MARRIED)... Eventually he figures it out - and he's devastated.  It was - to me at least - really well done - though way more cartoonish because the clone was just so obviously off and exaggeratedly off so Clark got suspicious.

This feels similar - but much more nuanced because a mirror version of Iris would be harder to pin down.  Does this mean she'll be left-handed, with her scar on the other arm, etc and everything opposite?  Because it doesn't feel like EVERYTHING is opposite... and with Crisis just ended and things being all different because of that - Iris being different would seem like a result of that...

I need Barry to figure this out though.  

[BeautifulFlower]

I wanted Barry to figure it out, but I can see why he didn't. Every time he got suspicious, fake Iris was always ready to justify her actions. She came up with some believable stories to convince Barry.

Fake Iris has to do something really suspicious to get Barry to catch on. 

I didn't care for Allegra's plot. I don't care about her love life. Also, can this show please stop having these people reveal secrets?

Who was that Nash saw?

How did fake Iris end up in our world? In the beginning, she was getting off the ground and looked hurt. 

I can't believe this show made a Straight Outta Compton and NWA mention. I know Eric doesn't expect to just buy that Amunet introduce Gold face to NWA.

I will admit. I did laught at their banter at the end as well as their inner thoughts. LMAO at Barry and fake Iris being disgusted at what they were seeing. Also, WHY were they watching?

[RedVitC]

Quick initial thoughts:

ooof this was tough to get through because I was nervous about whether or not it was Iris. Halfway through I started to really hope it wasn't Iris, because it wasn't just Barry who thought things felt strange between them, and that Iris was strange, me too and the resolution didn't feel right. That's why I was relieved to see that it indeed wasn't Iris.

I don't like that Barry can't tell it's not Iris, or rather that he let himself be dissuaded since he did feel something was wrong. But I can't really compare it to episode 7 since evil Iris was actively pretending that she was Iris (and being quite devious in manipulating im when Barry brought up how different she was acting) to the point that I also started to wonder, while dark flash was clearly and obviously dismissive and not really putting effort in trying to pretend to be Barry and it came on the heels of something happening with his mind. Not to take anything away from how great it was that Iris immediately knew, but I guess I can sort of see why in this case with nothing particular happened before it (that he knows of) why Barry didn't immediately think this was some pretender even if my shipper heart thinks he should have.

I'd rather he'd caught on and I'm not sure how to feel about that he didn't (and I wish they didn't have a kiss between fake Iris and him)

Moving on from that point, how does fake Iris know all those things about their relationship?

[ParadoxLost]

If you are going to use Love is a Battlefield, then there has to be some contrived reason why the choreography is also used.

[bettername2come]

9 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Who was that Nash saw?

It seemed to be Harry Wells. Could be Thawne or Original Recipe Wells, but don't think so.

I went from thinking Iris had been swapped completely to thinking she was still in there and something had affected her personality, since there was enough stuff that seemed believable. Like Iris undercover and breaking the bottle over the head didn't seem too over the top, considering how quick she's been to grab weapons and put herself in dangerous situations. And she's willing to tell people off when they underestimate her. They got me in the end. Broke my heart a little bit with Iris screaming. Barry better figure it out eventually. I also expect Iris to be angry and brokenhearted that he can't tell it's her. 

I miss Caitlin and Cisco. And Ralph. Don't care for Allegra.

Amunet was fun this episode. Definitely like her more when she's not human trafficking.

[catrice2]

Came here to say the same as others. Iris can recognize when Barry is not Barry, but not the other way around?  Surely he would ask why she was having to come up with so many explanations.  Had this not been a show where someone is constantly pretending to be someone else I could understand, but they should be used to it by now.....and I am tired of it.  

[Jediknight]

The Legends writers had to have written Amunet and Goldface's stuff.  That's right up their alley, that was a hoot.

I'm always up for Amunet returning and Katee Sackhoff chewing scenery.  Sometimes you just need that, like with Trejo as Breacher, and Wentworth Miller as Snart.  Sometimes you just need to let somebody go nuts and sink their teeth into it, and have a blast.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Jediknight

[Lady Calypso]

To give some credit to Barry, Mirror Iris was acting very, very similar to our Iris and she came up with some very believable reasons as to why she was Barry's Iris. She was basically gaslighting him, so I do not blame Barry for not fully figuring it out. And he still sensed that something was wrong; Mirror Iris just happened to convince him that he was wrong. It's not like Barry had zero inkling. He got brushed off by Joe and Mirror Iris made some very factual points that we, as an audience, have also been screaming at our televisions about Iris not getting the credit she deserves for being badass.

I really, really liked the episode. The comedic moments were on point. I enjoyed the Amunet/Goldface stuff. 

I didn't mind the Frost/Allegra stuff, but it was pointless filler. 

So, Nash is seeing....Harry? I thought he was seeing Eobard at first because of the glasses and the slicked back hair. But then I had to look up season 4 Harry and forgot that he ended up going back to glasses as well.

[Lantern7]

Dopey episode. I vote we refer to Iris-From-The-Mirror as "Siri." And given the Alexa sponsor drop tonight, I think that would be the funniest alternate name. Can I get that nomination seconded?

Yes, Barry looks like a dope for getting something's a miss with his Iris . . . but come on, how many of us would have thought "identity-stealing doppelganger from the mirror" if we were actually there? I had to remind myself of last week's stinger in the first few seconds.

Meh on the Frost/Allegra plot. Only takeaway is that the writers seem to be nudging her and Nash together. As for what appeared to be Harry . . . maybe he's a post-Crisis refugee? There are lots of those popping up on Supergirl. I can also buy him being a ghost. Or maybe he somehow lived through the death of the original Earth-2?

Amunet and Goldface have problems. I don't think instant mind-reading is a long-term fix. At least those two going at it wasn't as gross as the time Mick Rory boned his three-breasted warrior woman literary creation.

[SevenStars]

Earth 2 Iris didn't realize that our Barry wasn't really her Barry for while because Barry was just a different version of her Barry. So maybe MirrorIris is just another version of Iris, making it harder for Barry to see that this is not his Iris.

Also, Iris argument with Barry was really manipulative by making him feel like he is the one in the wrong for not recognizing and accepting that life changed her. She made him feel guilty and bad for expecting her to still be the Iris he had always known after everything she has been through. So now, whenever she does something suspicious, he will forced himself to ignore it because to acknowledge it means Iris was right to be mad at him for not seeing and understanding that she couldn't keep being the Iris before everything that happened. 

I mean we saw Iris go through the Mirror last episode and some of us were doubting whether the Iris we were seeing was real Iris or mirror Iris. The Iris we were seeing was so much like the real Iris except for a few things that can easily be explain by the Crisis. 

So as of right now, I understand why Barry is being a fool and I don't fault him for it. 

[adora721]

Oh, look! Killer Frost can say, "Sorry" to Nash for (gasp!) insulting him about him being the last Wells. So, that word isn't foreign or verboten to her. But no "sorry" for attempted murders or trashing Kamilla's photography. I wonder why....

[KaveDweller]

28 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

Dopey episode. I vote we refer to Iris-From-The-Mirror as "Siri." And given the Alexa sponsor drop tonight, I think that would be the funniest alternate name. Can I get that nomination seconded?

I second that, Siri is a great alternate name for mirror Iris.

[tennisgurl]

Mirror Iris is slick as that creepy mirror goop she came out of! Even after seeing Iris getting dragged into the mirror, even I wasn't really sure if she was another Iris or if our Iris got spat out with some personality changes. There was nothing she did that seemed totally out of character, and she had a convenient explanation for every question that Barry had, not like when Barry was possessed by blood and snapped at Iris in a very obviously un Barry like way. Barry clearly realized something was up, but when he went to Joe he just said that this was a normal experience in a marriage, and when he tried to talk to Iris about it, she got really mad and started acting like he was the asshole for bringing it up. Its kind of easy to chalk up her harder attitude and new life skills to her Crisis worries and her new job, and now whenever Barry thinks that something is weird with Iris, he will just feel bad for not being a supportive husband, when he might already be feeling guilty about with everything in Crisis. I really hope that Barry figures it out soon, but I dont blame him for not figuring it out yet. 

Poor Iris, stuck in a mirror and forced to watch her doppelganger paw all over her husband. So what is Mirror Irises deal? She seems to know everything about Iris, enough to fool everyone in her life (albeit with some gaslighting and manipulation) and wants to slip right into her life, so whats her plan? Just...be Iris? 

So Killer Frost gets yet another "KF learns how to be a real girl" story. Oh joy, so exciting, never seen that one before. It wasnt awful or anything, and I like Allegra, but I spent most of the story wondering how Cisco's road trip was going, how Caitlin was liking being inside of KF these days, and where the ever loving crap Ralph has been. He got a mention, so we know he wasnt wiped out in Crisis or something, but where is he? Still on his missing person case? Can we check in with him again instead of KF being snarky and trying to be nice again? 

I quite enjoyed the episode, even if I am sad that our biggest Barry/Iris episode in ages didnt even have real Iris in it! The Amunet/Goldface stuff was funny, and its fun to see the actors just going full on over the top ridiculous super-villain sometimes, especially after all of the drama leading up to Crisis. The show has really been on a roll with its holiday themed episodes!

Edited February 12, 2020 by tennisgurl

[adora721]

Still really like the Goldface actor. Not so much Amunet. It was a very awkward rom-com type episode that was mildly entertaining.

I don't mind MIris; she's got most of the beats of the real Iris with just a little less care for Barry's feelings. Too often the show suffers because everyone is too careful of hurting the feelings of others, even when a good rebuke is exactly what's needed. Like Cisco apologizing to Nash when Cisco was right to call him out for his arrogance as the cause of crisis or Cisco allowing KF to hurt his girlfriend's feelings, but not calling KF out for it. Or the everlasting coddling that goes on with Caitlin...ugh!

Killer Frost is morphing into Caitlin; not sure why they didn't just retcon them to merge after crisis.  And if they can bring back old villians, they can find a new Ronnie for Caitlin played by a different actor. They keep wasting that option.

I'm glad Iris' arc continues, even though it's weird Barry doesn't know it's not her. However, he does know something is off.  I'm excited to see how the story develops.

Glad to see Joe, but why wasn't he prepping for V day? Poor Cecile and where's his baby daughter?

 

[bluvelvet]

MirrorIris confused me. At first I thought it wasn’t her, but her explanations made sense and Barry did sense something was off. However by the end, I thought it was realIris until the mirror scene. I think this is just another version of Iris. I wonder if there is a Mirror Barry ? 

[SevenStars]

I like that it seems like the writers are taking their time with this mirror iris arc and doing it in a way that doesn't make the characters look like complete fools. Because one of the biggest flaw that Flash has is in writing stories/arc like instant noodles. They don't take the time to let the story marinate long enough to make you feel anything. 

[Trini]

Anyone here watched Chuck? This was a Chuck episode, and it was great. That had a bigger comedy element than this show, but it also focused on 'heart' and relationships. I'm glad we got a Flash episode that both made me squee and laugh.

Also great that the three characters I care the least about were all in one subplot together. Thanks for making that easily skippable, show! I did miss Cisco and Ralph, though. I would have rather seen Cisco and Kamilla in a V-day subplot.

I did appreciate that we got a Papa Joe wisdom scene with him and Barry.

Aw, I really wanted Barry to figure out that she wasn't the real Iris - and quickly; but Mirror Iris was acting off but not too off. So it is plausible, and she had believable excuses. I think the biggest clues were the pancakes and knowing Italian. It's good that Barry noticed the subtle changes. ... Although Iris being more reckless than usual wasn't subtle.

But I'm really going to need answers on what this Mirror Iris is, and what she's up to. Because she's not the opposite of Iris, she's very similar. Does she know she's a copy?

Lots of LOL moments! I don't really like Amunet, but I thought Goldface was fun the first time we saw him; the squabbling between them was funny.

[Cthulhudrew]

This was a great episode for Iris (and CP); I think a lot of what Iris said really needed to be said, and the strength and agency her character showed this episode have been sorely lacking in the writing for her for most of the Flash's 6 seasons. I'm incredibly disappointed that the character we saw is apparently just some kind of doppelganger.

[thuganomics85]

So, it really is a Mirror Iris we are dealing with (or MIris.  I can dig that!), and the real one is trapped in the mirrors, I guess.  For now, I don't fully blame Barry for not noticing, because she really did act a lot like the real one, and there was a believable reason for her to be "off", in that Iris would have grown and become more self-reliant while Barry was off doing his own things in Crisis, and now Barry will think any differences he is seeing is due to that.  And it's not like she is completely wrong about it, because Iris has become a lot tougher now and doesn't need to always be saved by him. It's just too bad all of this isn't the real Iris.

Speaking of which, what is the endgame here for MIris?  It seems like she really did want to solve the case and stop Amunet and Goldface, and she is sincere in all of her romantic scenes with Barry.  Does she simply want a normal life outside of the mirror or wherever the hell she came from?  Or is something else going on.

All the stuff with Amunet/Goldface was fun, although Katee Sackhoff somehow manages to become even more over-the-top and campy each time she returns, and she was already like a 11 out of 10 on the camp scale in her first episode!

On the other hand, yikes, the stuff with Killer Frost and Allegra was dull.  Not only the pure definition of filler, but filler with two characters I really don't care about.

I know Cisco is off on his self-discovery journey or whatever, but where is Ralph?  I miss him (man, I never would have typed that when he first showed up.)

So, Nash either hallucinated or saw another version of Wells at the end.  Hmm...

[ruby24]

Guessing they will never even address the fact that whoever this imposter is, Barry is actually, you know, sleeping with her since they're married.

You'd think that'd be a big deal once the real Iris gets back, but I'm betting a million bucks they will never even bring this up. And the only reason they can get away with that is because the show is SO sexless you'd be forgiven for thinking Barry and Iris are just roommates.

[UNOSEZ]

The things Siri said were spot on and sorely needed.. Barry was being super overprotective especially considering everything iris had done on her own since the show started... Maybe Siri really is just Iris  with less of a filter, because besides knowing how to cook everything she did is something Iris would do if she wasn't super worried about worrying Barry... So maybe the two merge or Irisjuat asserts herself more when she gets out... Does iris see everything that Siri is doing or just when she's by a mirror... I know it makes sense anf should be a story beat, but I'm not looking forward to Iris being upset that Barry couldn't tell he was with Siri... I guess we'll need some more info as to Siri's plan.. Her motive... How aware she is of what she is... How blatant the differences are before I can say how angry Iris should be... Cuz Siri had a reason every time Barry wondered about her

[Featherhat]

3 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Guessing they will never even address the fact that whoever this imposter is, Barry is actually, you know, sleeping with her since they're married.

You'd think that'd be a big deal once the real Iris gets back, but I'm betting a million bucks they will never even bring this up. And the only reason they can get away with that is because the show is SO sexless you'd be forgiven for thinking Barry and Iris are just roommates.

If they can't even show "fade to black" then they probably won't want to deal with the fact that Barry is (probably!) having sex with someone else. Though they could have a talk about feelings of betrayal without being specific and not brush everything under the carpet. 

I actually liked Siri despite the fact that she's extremely good at being manipulative with an unknown endgame. They could incorporate some of her into Real!Iris's characterisation to show that they aren't so far off, and she really is a force to be reckoned with in her own right in little snippets that we see anyway. And she really would have had to prepare herself for life without Barry if only they had bothered to show it. She's more like Iris if she wasn't constantly making sure Barry and everyone else was okay first and had an onscreen voice and stuff that isn't about only being a LI. 

Though it does suck that the biggest WestAllen episode for a long time had a fake Iris in it and Real Iris was trapped and trying to get out. And will suck if this storyline is the most CP is getting. 

10 hours ago, phoenics said:

Did anyone ever watch episodes of Lois & Clark?  This scenario TOTALLY reminds me of those episodes where Lex replaces real Lois with a clone (that poor Clark actually MARRIED)... Eventually he figures it out - and he's devastated.  It was - to me at least - really well done - though way more cartoonish because the clone was just so obviously off and exaggeratedly off so Clark got suspicious.

Gah, Frog Eating Clone Arc! This is much more subtle and hopefully won't go on for  so many episodes. That got quite sad at the end though, IIRC when the clone found out she was only going to live for a couple of weeks etc. And lets hope they don't go full on with amnesia afterwards. 

I like Harry much more than Nash so I'm interested in what's going on there but it seems pretty much filler for TC. 

Speaking of.....Yeah KF and Allegra bonding, She really is a Real Girl now at least two more women on the show got to have a conversation with each other. They can't think of much to do with KF and I suppose DP is limited in a lot of stuff as well. They really should just merge them if KF's just going to be hanging out whilst Caitlin is what napping for days at a time or something?

Edited February 12, 2020 by Featherhat

[phoenics]

5 hours ago, Featherhat said:

If they can't even show "fade to black" then they probably won't want to deal with the fact that Barry is (probably!) having sex with someone else. Though they could have a talk about feelings of betrayal without being specific and not brush everything under the carpet. 

I actually liked Siri despite the fact that she's extremely good at being manipulative with an unknown endgame. They could incorporate some of her into Real!Iris's characterisation to show that they aren't so far off, and she really is a force to be reckoned with in her own right in little snippets that we see anyway. And she really would have had to prepare herself for life without Barry if only they had bothered to show it. She's more like Iris if she wasn't constantly making sure Barry and everyone else was okay first and had an onscreen voice and stuff that isn't about only being a LI. 

Though it does suck that the biggest WestAllen episode for a long time had a fake Iris in it and Real Iris was trapped and trying to get out. And will suck if this storyline is the most CP is getting. 

It does totally suck that all of that happened with fakeIris - although she was still kinda gaslighting Barry.  I agreed partially with her about having to fend for herself and being stronger now - but Iris has almost ALWAYS had to fend for herself.  She took out Clock King.  She punched out Tony Woodward.  She took out Dr. Light.  She ducked a punch from Wally when he went all Savitar-crazy and then knocked him TF out.  I could go on (because she's actually been more badass without powers than many heroes have been WITH them).

This kind of badassery from Iris in response to her father and Barry's infantilization of her in S1 would have been awesome to see - that it's a mirror version of her .... ??

I have been wondering if MirrorIris knows she's not the real Iris?

At one point I was wondering if it was Iris, just changed or freed of some of her "SBW" inhibitions?  But now that it's "not Iris", I hope we won't go back to realIris being forced back into a SBW (Strong and Silent Black Woman) who just takes it and supports everyone else and not herself while none of them (except Barry sometimes) support or care about her (although Team Citizen seemed to care in episode 6.10).

I just don't want part of what MirrorIris said to be lost or dismissed because it was largely valid (except the gaslighting part).

Quote

They can't think of much to do with KF and I suppose DP is limited in a lot of stuff as well. They really should just merge them if KF's just going to be hanging out whilst Caitlin is what napping for days at a time or something?

Yeah - it's obvious to me that they've backed themselves into a corner with KF.  It's gross actually to have her living in CS' place and doing stuff while Caitlin is technically dormant.  What if KF wants to be in a relationship?  What if CS hates the guy?  This storyline just crosses all kinds of wrong.  I would say split them into two people, but they can't even think of storylines to give her now - having her split up into two people would just make it worse and suck up more screentime boring me to death with plots that have no relevance and make no sense.  I keep imagining what might have happened if they'd just gone with the original idea for this character - to be played by an older, capable actress who would probably slowly turn evil because her powers turn her into a heat vampire.  If she had mistakenly killed someone in S3 before Savitar showed up to tempt her with a "cure" you could ALMOST understand her teaming up with him to try to kill Iris.  But you would still want her held accountable and not just brought back into the fold for "reasons". 

This show honestly should have turned her evil and left her that way. 

ETA:  Whoo hoo!  My edit fixed the weird quote problem!!

Edited February 12, 2020 by phoenics

[AnimeMania]

12 hours ago, mtlchick said:

13 hours ago, shantown said:

had to buy an Alexa for his home?

He still needs Amazon for deliveries he has no control over?

Amazon delivery guy: "We had to leave the packages at the door of S.T.A.R Labs because we couldn't figure out how to get inside."

Did Cisco take his girlfriend with him when he left?

Is Nash Wells Allegra's father or something?

Edited February 12, 2020 by AnimeMania

[Lady Calypso]

38 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I have been wondering if MirrorIris knows she's not the real Iris?

I think she does. She was looking into the mirror with some sort of...evil look in her eye? As if she knew that the real Iris was behind the mirror? Plus, she didn't sound confused at all when Barry was questioning some of the things she was doing (speaking Italian, for instance). So I do lean toward Mirror Iris knowing exactly what's going on.

39 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I have been wondering if MirrorIris knows she's not the real Iris?

I think Mirror Iris was speaking very valid points, but it's also why she could get away with the gaslighting. Because, yes she was speaking the truth...but also 100% gaslighting Barry because she wasn't the real Iris. She was making him believe that he was crazy for thinking that something was wrong. 

[AD35]

50 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Iris has almost ALWAYS had to fend for herself.  She took out Clock King.  She punched out Tony Woodward.  She took out Dr. Light.  She ducked a punch from Wally when he went all Savitar-crazy and then knocked him TF out.  I could go on (because she's actually been more badass without powers than many heroes have been WITH them

I'm sure there's a spot for her on the Waverider whenever she wants it.

[Featherhat]

23 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think she does. She was looking into the mirror with some sort of...evil look in her eye? As if she knew that the real Iris was behind the mirror? Plus, she didn't sound confused at all when Barry was questioning some of the things she was doing (speaking Italian, for instance). So I do lean toward Mirror Iris knowing exactly what's going on.

Yes this. I think there is probably still a bit of wiggle room if they wanted to go another way and try and explain some of the changes via COIE or implanted memories but she probably does know she's Mirror Iris. As you said she's purposely gaslighting him with yes the valid points instead of reassuring him she's fine or talking it through. Though her endgame might not be completely wrong or evil.

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

It's gross actually to have her living in CS' place and doing stuff while Caitlin is technically dormant.  What if KF wants to be in a relationship?  What if CS hates the guy?  This storyline just crosses all kinds of wrong.  I would say split them into two people, but they can't even think of storylines to give her now

Well if she was two people they could have sent Caitlin off with Cisco and had Frost hang around without worrying about Caitlin's consent for anything. Or have her off working on an experiment like Ralph's case. The stuff about consent and relationships is probably the most interesting thing left about the character so the won't explore that. Since she's just "Frost" and redeemed now they'll say it's cool Caitlin is fine having a rest or whatever. They could use COIE to bring a version of her Ronnie in a different body or a different version of Firestorm that understands being two different people in one body for a storyline next season.

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

But you would still want her held accountable and not just brought back into the fold for "reasons".

Like so many characters in this 'verse...Sigh. They aren't good when they want the actor to stay around but the character doesn't logically fit anywhere. And many "redemptions" are …..lacking.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Featherhat

[Trini]

12 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

I second that, Siri is a great alternate name for mirror Iris.

sirI?

[UNOSEZ]

4 minutes ago, Trini said:

sirI?

Its IRIS backwards... Like in a mirror.. Mirror iris.... SIRI

[Trini]

7 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Its IRIS backwards... Like in a mirror.. Mirror iris.... SIRI

I know, i was suggesting an alternate spelling.

[phoenics]

34 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Its IRIS backwards... Like in a mirror.. Mirror iris.... SIRI

Damn - that's brilliant.  I thought it was a riff off the Alexa thing which is why I didn't think it was a good MirrorIris nickname but no, that's brilliant.

 

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by phoenics

[UNOSEZ]

10 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Damn - that's brilliant.  I thought it was a riff off the Alexa thing which is why I didn't think it was a good MirrorIris nickname but no, that's brilliant.

 

 

It is.. Someone upthread coined it.. But it works.. Shame she's the Iris I been waiting on all these years... And its not even our girl... That's why I hope she somehow knows all that Siri is doing.. And whenever she comes back will be more Siri and less worried about everyone else all the time... 

[UNOSEZ]

Also loved that goldface is a Connecticut born Yale bulldog who loves Radiohead on vinyl... He was fun the last time he was around too.. And besides her weird accent I love amunet.. Her putting goldie onto NWA had me dying

[phoenics]

3 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Also loved that goldface is a Connecticut born Yale bulldog who loves Radiohead on vinyl... He was fun the last time he was around too.. And besides her weird accent I love amunet.. Her putting goldie onto NWA had me dying

Funny thing is I know guys just like him where it would be someone like Amunet who'd put them on to NWA, lol.  Oy.

 

7 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

It is.. Someone upthread coined it.. But it works.. Shame she's the Iris I been waiting on all these years... And its not even our girl... That's why I hope she somehow knows all that Siri is doing.. And whenever she comes back will be more Siri and less worried about everyone else all the time... 

I agree - I really hope some of this stuff is Iris, just repressed? Maybe some of it is stuff SIRI observed and she's like an angry Iris translator?  Or she's using that to manipulate Barry but it's deep down what Iris thinks and feels?

I still feel like her motives aren't just to take over Iris' life - she's definitely trying to SBF Iris, but I don't think that's her endgame.

[BeautifulFlower]

I really want to know why Killer Frost and Nash were in that building. 

Iris has The Citizen in there. I bet Allegra and Kamilla have keys to their work space.

Cecile's new Defense Attorney office is in there.

Ralph office is there.

That building seems to be a place for people to have a business space. So I would expect they have security there, but they don't. Like why are Killer Frost and Nash there?

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I really want to know why Killer Frost and Nash were in that building. 

That building seems to be a place for people to have a business space. So I would expect they have security there, but they don't. Like why are Killer Frost and Nash there?

I agree - I viscerally reacted to KF being in IRIS' office and doing stuff in there.  Given the writing and teflon nature of the character I recoil when I see her - but especially doing stuff in Iris' office.  Like - that's not a public space.

I also second the folks who said KF giving advice on love when she's never experienced it is just eye-rolling and clearly the writers desperately searching for stuff for KF to do.

Here's a hint writers:  it's in her name.  Nerfing her to have your cake and eat it too is why you're struggling with what to do with her.  Make her a villain and get it over with.

Edited February 12, 2020 by phoenics

[shantown]

I'm also really sick of Caitlin/Killer Frost. They haven't done anything interesting or useful with her in four seasons now, and her being awkwardly shoehorned into plots because they have to have the actress doing something is making me less and less interested in the episodes overall. Also they obviously don't have enough for characters to do... Ralph is MIA again, Cisco is MIA again, Wells' only plot is secretly moping about his doppleganger daughter. CUT SOME CHARACTERS if you're not going to write for them and they have no purpose!!

Mirror Iris was interesting, even though I'm confused what/who exactly she is. It's not an opposite of Iris, she had some of the same skills/traits (still an investigator, still throws herself into the metaphorical fire) but some opposite ones (is a good cook now). I am interested in seeing how that plays out and it was nice to see Barry and Iris 1) as a couple, but moreso 2) working together. Barry is a superhero and a scientist and Iris is a reporter and an investigator WHY WHY WHY don't they combine their skill sets more often??

[Trini]

6 hours ago, Featherhat said:

If they can't even show "fade to black" then they probably won't want to deal with the fact that Barry is (probably!) having sex with someone else. Though they could have a talk about feelings of betrayal without being specific and not brush everything under the carpet. 

There's just... not going to be a good way to deal with this. Mirror Iris is almost exactly like Real Iris, so it's not Barry's fault. One better way to resolve it is to explain that Mirror Iris is somehow split off from Real Iris; so it's not completely a new person. But we'll see how they choose to explain things.

I had mentioned in the Spoiler thread that this storyline is similar to one that happened in season 3 of Fringe. In that show, once the truth was out, there were hurt feelings for a while but they let the couple express their feelings and eventually make up. Even let the fooled party face another 'test' to show that they learned and really knew their partner.

It might suck for WestAllen as a couple, but it's kind of a good way to involve Barry* so it's not just an Iris story. I'm willing to see where they go with this; they've surprised me a few times so far.

*(Since it seems he doesn't really have his own arc for this back half.)

[adora721]

2 hours ago, phoenics said:

I still feel like her motives aren't just to take over Iris' life - she's definitely trying to SBF Iris, but I don't think that's her endgame.

I suspect that it's Eva McCullough inside Siri/MIris' body. Eva has Iris' memories and  knows that Iris has recenly tried to bring her husband's company and Black Hole to justice. I think that's why Eva is using Iris to get at her husband either for revenge or for justice. It's just a great coincidence that Iris is also the wife of the Flash and a reporter who Eva can use to her benefit. 

2 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I really want to know why Killer Frost and Nash were in that building. 

Iris has The Citizen in there. I bet Allegra and Kamilla have keys to their work space.

Cecile's new Defense Attorney office is in there.

Ralph office is there.

I suspect the reason Killer Frost and Nash were at Team Citizen's offices is to establish that office as a place for members of Team Flash to gather outside of STAR Labs. It's a way to overlap those two teams so that later in the season we won't find it odd when KF, Cisco, Barry, and others are there since Iris' plot will merge with and bring the whole gang together for the big bad of 6B at some point. 

[adora721]

10 hours ago, phoenics said:

I would say split them into two people, but they can't even think of storylines to give her now - having her split up into two people would just make it worse and suck up more screentime boring me to death with plots that have no relevance and make no sense. 

You know, I now think that they have thought of splitting them into two, but DP has difficulty making the two personalities distinguishable from the other. They were acting so similar before and even moreso now that Cisco's technology has made her voice sound like Caitlin.  

I actually think that splitting them would have made for interesting stories, such as: 

• Cait would have her own personal nemesis like Thwane is for Barry. KF would likely target Ralph, Barry (using Iris) and Cisco and his loved ones, like Kamilla, to get to Cait.
• KF could have even been the one to murder Cynthia, leading to difficulties and strain between Cait and Cisco since Cynthia's murderer wears his BFF's face.
• KF could have gone around being evil and framing Caitlin for it, which would lead to plots to clear Cait's name and have Cait deal with her actual dark side embodied in KF.
• KF and Icicle could have joined forces in S5 and have Cait and her mom bond to defeat them, which would lead to better arcs dealing with their strained relationship.
• KF might have found love with someone like Norvock, leading Cait to consider her widowhood and lack of romantic interests since Ronnie and Zoom. This would have been a credible and interesting Valentine's Day episode for her/them.
• KF could have tried to play on Team Flash's relationship with Cait and pretended to be turning good, only to betray them by working with Bloodwork.
• KF would likely still work for Amunet, leading to run ins with Goldface. 
• KF could be revealed as pregnant, which starts her on the path to redemption for her child's sake. For protection, KF would give her child to ARGUS for safety or send her kid to the future to be raised by the Legends.
• Alternatively, KF could be actually redeemed over several seasons and then give her life in sacrifice to save Cisco or Caitlin.

However, I've come to believe that TPTB didn't do this for two reasons:

1. As an actress, DP isn't up to the task of portraying two unique personalities like Tom C does.
2. TPTB don't find writing for just Caitlin interesting. If the goal is to get rid of Killer Frost, they'd still be left with Caitlin and she's not interesting without Killer Frost.

Edited February 13, 2020 by adora721

[shantown]

30 minutes ago, adora721 said:

I suspect the reason Killer Frost and Nash were at Team Citizen's offices is to establish that office as a place for members of Team Flash to gather outside of STAR Labs. It's a way to overlap those two teams so that later in the season we won't find it odd when KF, Cisco, Barry, and others are there since Iris' plot will merge with and bring the whole gang together for the big bad of 6B at some point. 

That's probably the motive, but it was a real weak setup. All it needed was a throwaway line about Killer Frost offering to meet Allegra somewhere, "I'm in the office." Have Wells meet up with Ralph at some point in the future. Way easier than having them magically appear because reasons. These writers hate putting 1% of logic into the writing sometimes.
 

3 minutes ago, adora721 said:

As an actress, DP isn't up to the task of portraying two unique personalities like Tom C does.

I mean, Tom doesn't seem up to the task lately either

Edited February 12, 2020 by shantown

[SevenStars]

12 minutes ago, shantown said:

That's probably the motive, but it was a real weak setup. All it needed was a throwaway line about Killer Frost offering to meet Allegra somewhere, "I'm in the office." Have Wells meet up with Ralph at some point in the future. Way easier than having them magically appear because reasons. These writers hate putting 1% of logic into the writing sometimes.
 

I mean, Tom doesn't seem up to the task lately either

So true about the office situation and Tom, lol

[Trini]

1 hour ago, shantown said:

CUT SOME CHARACTERS if you're not going to write for them and they have no purpose!!

Well, they did for this episode; but yes, overall, they need to cut a few, or have them only recurring. I'm glad Carlos wised up and booked some other work since they've been sidelining Cisco.

I highly recommend skipping and generally ignoring any subplots with Wells #457 or Caitlin/Frost. They're barely relevant to the show these days.

[Starry]

I have to give it to the writers. SirI did an exceptionally good job at gaslighting Barry. I can't fault him for not realizing she wasn't his actual wife. He noticed all the things that were different about her like being able to make edible pancakes and speak Italian. He knew that something was off and that they weren't connecting but she kept dropping so many truth bombs that for a moment there I got confused and started believing SirI was nothing more than a sassier and more reckless version of the real Iris who just happened to pick up a couple new abilities. Aside from that, there wasn't anything different about her.

I am not even ruling out the possibility that SirI is Iris at her best. Like some sort of reverse Caitlin/Killer Frost situation. Instead of two people inhabiting the same body here we have the mirror splitting one person into two bodies. If that's the case, Iris could merge with SirI once she's out of the Mirrorverse, get her memory back and the writers won't have to deal with the issue that is Barry's inability to give consent.

But I think they are going the villain route here. I too noticed the look SirI gave Iris while the latter was trapped in the mirror. If that's the case and SirI is a total imposter, Barry and Iris are going to need a lot of therapy once this storyline is over. Iris will feel isolated. She'll start obsessing over this stranger taking over her life. She'll probably resent Barry for not being able to tell that SirI is not her. Barry will feel violated and guilty that he was living his life like everything was normal while his wife was trapped.

It's a very twisted storyline no matter what they decide to do with SirI. This time I am happy with the writing. If I am not able to tell with certainty what SirI's deal is, I can see why Barry couldn't either. I was afraid they were going to dumb him down but this makes sense.

I loved domestic WestAllen. They had so many adorable and cute scenes that highlighted their chemistry. I personally like that Barry is caring and protective.

The stuff with Amunet and Goldface was cringy and funny at the same time. Their last scene was completely ridiculous and the show wasn't even pretending that wasn't the case. I totally empathized with Barry and Iris when they were looking at them with those comical disgusted expressions on their faces.

I wasn't interested in the Frost, Allegra and Nash subplot but all three characters got some development and learned some lessons. I thought Frost and Nash had some chemistry. I don't know why he is seeing Harry. What does that mean?

Pretty sure the characters mentioned Valentine's Day every two scenes.

The show is still doing some retconning. Iris having her own paper and team means that she's more independent but let's not pretend that the things Joe and Barry mentioned were things that pre-season 6 Iris would have never done.

I don't think there was one scene in STAR Labs. Never thought I'd see the day.

2 hours ago, Trini said:

It might suck for WestAllen as a couple, but it's kind of a good way to involve Barry* so it's not just an Iris story. I'm willing to see where they go with this; they've surprised me a few times so far.

*(Since it seems he doesn't really have his own arc for this back half.)

I think finding out what's happening with his powers is going to be Barry's own arc.

[UNOSEZ]

2 hours ago, Starry said:

think finding out what's happening with his powers is going to be Barry's own arc.

Spoiler

That's for the Wally episode and probably the episode before it.. Another episode or two